Hard Numbers of 2-stroke VS 4-stroke

[Sam Baker]

Just got some test results of Evinrude FICHT engines versus Yamaha and Honda four strokes. Here they are in a nutshell.

Test 1:
Engines: Evinrude Ficht 225 VS Honda 225 4-Stroke
Boat: Javelin 21 MSX (Walleye Boat)

Top Speed:
Evinrude - 59.8 MPH
Honda - 52.4 MPH

Acceleration:
Evinrude 0-30 MPH in 5.77 Seconds
Honda 0-30 MPH in 10.7 Seconds (ALMOST DOUBLE)

Best Cruising Fuel Efficiency:
Evinrude - 4.46 MPG @ 28.6 MPH
Honda - 4.7 MPH @27.7 MPH


Test 2:
Engines: Evinrude FICHT 135 V6 VS Honda 130 4-Stroke
Boat: Sylvan 2030 Space Ship OB (Deck Boat)

Top Speed:
Evinrude 43 MPH
Honda 37 MPH

Acceleration:
Evinrude 0-150 Feet in 6.2 seconds
Honda 0-150 Feet in 8.71 seconds

Best Cruising Fuel Efficiency:
Evinrude 4.45 MPG at 27.9 MPH
Honda 3.97 MPH at 20.4 (Who said 4-strokes get better MPG?)


Test 3:
Engines: Evinrude FICHT 225 VS Yamaha 225 4-Stroke
Boat: Aquasport 225 Osprey (Center Console Saltwater Boat)

Top Speed:
Evinrude 49.3 MPH
Yamaha 45.7 MPH

Acceleration:
Evinrude 0-150 Feet in 7.06 seconds
Yamaha 0-150 Feet in 7.76 seconds

Best Cruising Fuel Efficiency:
Evinrude 3.15 MPG @ 30.8 MPH
Yamaha 3.22 MPG @31.8 MPH



So, as you can see, I wouldn't be getting ready to bury the two strokes just yet. I just read on boatbiz.com that Bombardier is saying they'll be the first to meet 2006 CARB requirements as well. I would imagine that Mercury will release some test results as well which will show that the 4 stroke engines have a LONG way to go yet. The fuel savings (when there are savings) don't make up for the horrible performance and heavy weight, etc.

Hopefully this means a long life for screamandfly...they won't have to rename it growlandfly.com.....or thumpandfly.com.....

Sam

[Instigator]

Have'nt laughed that hard in a long time!!
Hope this kind of info does'nt get buried by the tree huggers??

[Gerben]

Hmmm, quite sobering for a 4st fan.

I assumme they where all propped for their optimum rpm and same type of prop?
(Not questioning results but some people are real good at making tests show whatever they want.)

Thanks for the info!!

Gerben

[MadMat]

2 Strokes forever. ;)

[Laker]

We are the ones that cant let the truth be burried!
WE All must speak out on this subject when we can.

[WILDMAN]

My 2nd boat is a 2001 21ft Rallysport, same hull as 21 superboat. I have a 225 Optimax 2-stroke. Last summer I took it on vacation with a full tank,50 gals. I kept my gps on for all 4 days and ran normally at 40-50 mph, along with idle zones and a few 70 mph blasts. At the end of 4 days, I had gone 242 miles and used 41 gallons of gas!That's right at 6 mpg and all from a 2-stroke! Now my 21 Liberator's a different story. 1 3/4 mpg! Oh-well I guess all 2 strokes aren't as good on gas. see-ya WILDMAN

[B.Leonard]

Sounds like that 225 Honda couldn't get on top of it's prop fast enough. Pathetic! I'll bet it could've used a second gear in that gear case :D

Sam - Do you know the prop sizes and exact weights?

Wildman - Idle zone? Yeaaaah riiiiight ;);)

-BL

[Flat Out]

Raise a glass and toast the might two strokes, may they be with us always.

[TUG]

LONG LIVE THE 2 STROKES:D

[H2Onut]

Eat that tree huggers !


Very good read, thanks for the post !!!

[delawarerick]

This might stir up some stuff but from what I have seen the new 2 strokes have some major issues one being fuel delivery and two would be carbon at idle. It seems yamaha with its hpdi has done the most to perfect injection and longitivity. This comment coming from an omc man. Fight and opimax to date still have issues. Delawarerick

[MadMat]

Slightly off topic, but most BIG ship engines are 2 strokes. These mutha's stand 4 stories high, produce 50000 to 100000 shaft horsepower and max out at 60!!! rpm. And they have doors in the intake/exhaust manifolds to let people WALK inside for inspection!

[Brad Zastrow]

Sam,
Should did I make a mistake with those twin four-strokes I just bought? I wonder what the gas mileage is with those?:( :( :( :confused:

[Brad Zastrow]

"Should did I..." what the heck was I typing? Seriously, I have always thought the direct injection will save the two stroke. ;)

[Toffen]

Hi!

Just a short comment: I run a Phantom 25 (2500 lbs) with a Promax 300 EFI 1999 model. At cruising speed (4000 rpms = 52 mph) I run 3,8 mpg. Not bad for a old EFI and 25 feet 16 years old hull.... I had a 225 Ficht 1999 model, and it ran only slightly more effective.

Cheers, Toffen G

[Instigator]

Thats awesome Toffen!

[LaveyT]

I guess this relates in a way since they disscontinued the 3 cly
Johnnyrude.
On a 14ft Larson G-3 with a 70hp Johnson I got around 7 MPG with the ol aluminum prop.Its agood thing to,we couldnt afford much back then,Lets see,Probably $5.25 an hour in 1978!
Thats wages for you young uns:p

[Toffen]

Hi!

Yess, and its true indeed! At 4.000 rpms my boat runs 45,5 knots and consumes 51-52 litre per hours. However, at 4.500 rpms it consumes 69 litres at 51 knots. So the 4.000 rpms is the sweet spot and nice speed for my rig as well. I presume the Skater 28 to consume more.....

Anyway, when I swapped from the Evinrude 225 Ficht to the Promax 300 I was stunned over the small difference in consume. The 225 Ficht had to be run at 4.500 rpms to meet the same speed - 22 inch Raker vs 26 inch Tempest.

Cheers and happy boatin' from Norway

Toffen G

:)

[Ron V]

Instigator, it wouldn't matter if the numbers get buried or not. The tree huggers don't care. Our fun ranks extremely low on their list. Their answer would be that losing a few mph isn't an issue because we should all be running sailboats. The bottom line is that numbers or no numbers, we have to do everything we can to keep the old motors going and stick it to them, as we continue to do what we can--vote.

[Flat Out]

I've got a few of those 3 cyls. They are some of the best motors ever made. A five would last forever, so it seemed. They run best at full throttle and would run there all day. I love my 75 Hustler. Bought it when I was 18, sold it to my brother he sold it to my cousin and I got it back a couple of years ago. I'm 36 now. Couldn't let it get away. How about the old X flow V4s. They seem popular on the board. Another great design gone,light and powerful. I've got my Dad's old 78 140S he bought new when I was 13. Needs a piston due to s--t marina gas. Gonna fix it soon my son is 10. Gotta fix it by the time he's 13.

[JW]

Wonder why my 15 Honda can rip ass on the 2 stroke 15 merc then?
Dont worry fellas, they'll get the 4 Stroke OB going faster and more efficient soon. Remember, they've only been out what, less than a year in 225 hp?? It's only a matter of time, the 2 strokes will be gone and the 4 strokes will be the only engine you can buy. :D

[TUG]

WELL DEN JAY DUBYU :D , WE GLAD DAT BE MAKIN YU HAPPY, AS FAR AS 4 STROKES GO:o , BOUT TIME TU GO FISHIN AINT IT JAY DUBYU:confused: :D

[espen]

Hi !
At 47,5mph we are using aprox 2 galloons an hour .....2stroke...
FULL TROTTLE! Yes its a boat and uses maybe less than your car! its a 12 foot v with 15hp...
The twin screamer gets aprox 2mpg ....
But who needs to drive all day?
Would love to try two
XS optimax 200 powerheads on that boat for cruising.

Whats the best mpg cruising
speed/rpm for the hi perf engines? When I was out in the ocean and tryed to cope with the waves in 20mph the twin screamer used a lot.. when I got up to 65 , 70mph it was much better.

[LaveyT]

You are rite on about the V-4',I had no clue how much power they were capable of! Chris Ray had an injected V-4 that blew the 122ci Mercs away! I have had excellent luck with all my OMC
products,but for some reason the 3 cyl is my favorite.I have never
had any better time than I had with boating with that motor:(
Wahh,Im gonna cry;) .....At least you were smart enough to get yours back! See ya,Dave

[Sam Baker]

I have the numbers at work...I'll try to get more specifics up next week. The comparison on the Javelin walleye boat between the Honda 225 and the Evinrude 225 will be in Bass and Walleye Boats I believe because the report I saw had "Reprinted with permission" stamped on it, so I assume they did the test. I was told that Honda set the boat up with their choice of prop (23" Mercury Tempest I believe) and the Bombardier guys set their boat up (22" Raker I'm sure).

As for the comment that the 4 strokes have only been out for a few months, that's a good point, but at the same time, the four stroke motor has been around for over 1 hundred years while the direct injection 2 stroke gas motor has been out for only about 5 or so. Bombardier and Mercury are learning more everyday.

As it stands currently, the Evinrude FICHT engine is the lowest when it comes to Emissions and is closest to 2008 CARB complience. Mercury has done phenomenal things with the Opti motors. I am certainly biased when it comes to two strokes, but I really think that the direct injection technology is getting to the point that you could potentially see it in small cars, etc. Not to mention what it will do for the other performance sports - snowmobiles and PWC. Snowmobilers have got to be praying for it to work because I don't know a single guy or gal with a sled that is just DYING to drive a four-stroke :-)

Long Scream the 2-Cycle!

[LaveyT]

Real good point,the 4-strokes have been around 100 years! Like you said the Direct injection 2 stroke is a new product and look where its at! I remember when "Electronic Ignition" was new on cars,I didnt want any part of it! then fuel injection,Ive still got carb motors (though nothing runs like E.F.I.). The point is as good as this product is now,I think it can only get better! and if the emissions are as low as they say,They are gonna be in cars and everywhere else because of power to weight ect.Im inclined to think this could be the "Rebirth of the Two Stroke",not the death!

[JW]

The large 4 stroke OUTBOARD engines haven't been around hardly at all. Yes Sam, 2 stroke and 4 stroke engines have been around for over 100 years, but we're talking marine outboard consumer grade engines here. Give the Japs 5 years, and I'm sure their large 4 stroke OB's will be better than the 2 strokes. There's nothing we can do about it, performace 2-stroke lovers only make up a tiny fraction of all marine engines sold, so the green machine will take away 2 strokes whether we like it or not. Look at all the 1.6 litre slammed Hondas out west, putting close to 800 hp to the street. It's only a matter of time. I just hope I can afford a nice Promax 225 the last year they are made......

[Instigator]

Yeah I can just see a in-line 4 banger, turbocharged, nitorus injected Honda motor that has a power peak at 10K RPM, with a power band from 10,000 to 10,050 RPM, cost $20K to build, lasts four 9 seconds at W.O.T. weighs 400lbs by it self, stood on end and screwed to an O/B mid section with no transmission.
Yeah, that'll work!
I want one bad! :eek:
As far as 15's, lets see, 75 lbs heavier, twice the size????
APBA record for a 15 cu.in. stock (15hp) two stroke (A Stock Outboard) is right at 65 MPH.
Lets see your miracle 4 stroke 15 hp 4 stroke (at how many cu.in's?) do that!
TWO STROKES ROCK!!

[David]

Count me in among the global warming believers. For my money to believe otherwise is to be in denial.

I like two strokes as much as anyone, and I am hoping the direct injection works out. Mitsubishi and some other makers are selling direct injection 4 stroke car engines in Japan. Ford and Chrysler tried the orbital technology a decade ago and could not pass the emissions durability tests.

Are the bugs out of Optimax and Ficht? I have read that both technologies suffered from carbon build up on the rings if ran at low rpm and high load.

FYI, the 4 stroke cycle was invented by NIcholas Otto in 1876. The 2 stroke cycle is older by a few years.

Diesel 2 strokes are quite common. All diesels are DI, so the fuel goes in after the exhaust ports are closed.

Sometimes I wonder if a 3 cyl OMC on a 13' Delta is as much fun at 60 mph as a bigger boat at 90 mph. It would burn a lot less fuel.

Please feel free to call me a hypocrite for enjoying running my boats and my cars:)

[TUG]

:confused: If us high performance guys are allready "the few" and we are out numbered 100 to 1 by the casual boater then what i cant understand is why they just dont get those big boat ancor 4 strokes burning clean and getting good gas mileage and the promaxes direct injection perfected and simply market the damn things and leave the high-perf motors alone?? Point being that 99 out of 100 people wouldnt want a race motor anyway, Point being, wouldnt this clean up our air and water without doing away with the crankcase injected 2.5's " the few, the proud, the pretty"" and wiping out a whole line of high performance racing organizations??? It is my opinion that they are still a long way off from ever making the 4 strokes run like a 2 stroke cubic inch for cubic inch!! it is also my opinion that when you force guys that have been racing for years to mount a 4 stroke on the back of there boat, they will loose intrist and it will kill the outboard racing organizations cuz dont no-one want to go backwards in time and be going slower then theyve been going. am i wrong guys?????:mad:

[BarryStrawn]

My opinion is two strokes are about done. I'm not saying I like this, just my opinion of the way things are. See any cars sold with direct injection two strokes? How about bikes? Cheaper, lighter and smaller. A hell of lot of money has been spent on Orbital and similar technologies by the car manufacturers and none have worked well enough to compete.

The killer for outbards will be tightened emissions. As the four stroke outboards are developed and lower emissions are demonstrated then the standards will continue to tighten. If the direct injection twos continue to improve then maybe. Long term I just think there is too much research and development on four strokes for the two strokes to keep up. As far as an exemption for high performance models simply because there are not very many and they don't make much difference - well this argument was tried for low volume exotic cars and didn't fly. Never going to happen.

Instigator - A complete aftermarket Honda B turbo "drop-on" engine weighs about 250lbs. The new K series is a bit lighter. That's 350hp as a daily driver or 650+ for drag race. And the torque curve would be more like 3,500-8,500. Turbos do wonderful things for low end power. I'd like to see one as an outboard although probably not for an offshore fish rig. More attractive to me than any Ficht or Optimax nightmare. And I wish all outboards on fast hulls had tranmissions - especially OMCs.

[JW]

My newer 15 Honda weighs 96 lbs, the newer 15 two stroke Merc is at 79 lbs. I paid $40 more for it brand new in the box than the best price on a new 2 stroke 15 merc when I shopped in 1999. For my 17 lbs weight and $40 price 'disadvantage', I get a motor that spins 700 rpms higher, through a higher pitched prop, with the same lower unit gear ratio, idles all day long at the lowest rpms with no carbon build up (unlike the little mercs I've had, where an hour would just about kill one unless you opened it up a few times). Honda has built these small motors for over 30 years now, that's why it's superior to the newer 15 hp two strokes. Give them 10 years on the big outboards, and we wont even know what a 2 stroke is.
Only my opinion, could be wrong :D

[Ron V]

I think the Honda 4-strokes are good engines, but I don't buy the statement that they will blow a 15 hp two stroke Merc away. If it can, then the only reason is because the Merc is 12.8 cubic inches which is small for an honest 15. I saw a 15 Honda run in a test tank and while it admittedly did not have a test wheel and therefore could not rev up properly, I did not think it had much guts. The tank was about 75% full and at full throttle it didn't even splash any out on the floor. If I'm not mistaken that boat you have is a Spectrum SL-14. I have the identical boat that I use for fishing so if you are ever over in northern IL and want to go head to head with my 1958 Evinrude 10 (rated at the powerhead at only 4000 rpm) and see what happens I'm game. I've GPS'd at 23 mph with it, using a beat up Michigan aluminum prop that is a bit short on pitch.

[LaveyT]

at this point I will expect a full blown Instigator Tirade!Batton down the hatches!hehehe

[JW]

Here's my little boat: 2000 14' Alumacraft T-14V. The Honda has factory 9" by 9" prop. Rev limiter is at 6200. Same gear case ratio as 15 Merc 2 stroke. No modifications to boat or motor.
Tucked under, the boat runs a GPS verified 26-27 mph. Close to rev limiter, but only hits it when getting too high jumping wakes.
Motor trimmed neutral or a little out, boat runs faster but needs a touch of weight in the bow to keep the bow down. Very close to rev limiter, in fact during corners or in heavy chop the prop blows out and it hits the rev limiter immediately.

I'm going to start playing with Mercury and Comp props to get the rpms down and the speed to around 30. Honda doesn't make a bigger prop for this gear case yet.

Bring that little boat up here, but be prepared to leave it!!

[Ron V]

JW,

That sure looks like a Spectrum/Starcraft in the picture. I'm not familiar with the T-14V, but it looks like it would be a faster bottom design than the old T-14S. I am not sure what my Evinrude 10 would be rated at the propshaft; probably between 8 and 9. It is only rated to turn 4500 but I am above the power curve now (I don't need no STINKIN' rev limiter!). My gearcase is also a hinderance. I can always bring out the heavy artillery--my uncle's 1967 Evinrude 9.5 "Bathtub". That's a little quicker than the 10 and revs higher. But no matter what I do, I probably could not keep up with yours with either motor. But I shouldn't. A 15 hp motor should be a 15 hp motor, and the ones I'm talking about are rated at the powerhead and are probably putting out between 8 and 9 at the propshaft.

On the other hand, if you want to compare 15s that are similar in weight, I've got a 1941 Sea King 15.2 hp Giant Twin with a rotary valve and good old fashioned Tillotson carb that is up to the task.

Ron

[JW]

I remember those old Sea-Kings tearing it up when I was a kid. They easily made more power than what they advertised on the side of the box.
My T-14V has a shallow V bottom, I'm guessing around 5-8 degrees. The V carries thru the entire length of the boat, without flattening at the rear. There is almost no hook or rocker in the bottom, I'm really impressed with the build quality. The 'T' designates it as a 'totable', which is a lighter weight boat than the other 14' boat Alumacraft sells. The 'V' is what they make now, instead of the older 'S' semi-V hull where it's V in the bow but flattens out in the back. It's stickered for 15 hp and 3 people max, but I've had 5 in it no problem.
Just have to figure out how to add a 5" wide pad to the bottom now.......

[Flat Out]

I think we should bring out all of our fishin' boats for a big rumble. I've got an old fiberglass Crestliner 14 with an '84 15 LittleRude the motor will spin 7000, so says the cataloge. The little 4s seem to have good bottom end, but man are they heavy.I don't doubt that Honda and Yamaha make good quality motors, I have a 9.9 Yamaha 2 stroke and its been good, exept it dosen't want to idle right now.It just seems that the 4s are heavier have more moving parts and are more expensive. As for longevity I've got 40+ year old motors that run like a top. Look around and see how many people are running old motors. Granted they are not as "clean" as the new ones are.
I saw some of the big 4s at the Toronto Boat show yesterday.Man I thought my 200 Venom has big. These thing are bigger than a house and weigh just as much.I'm going back this week to help at the PBCC club booth and hope to get a closer look at these behemoths.
As for the Delta at 60 mph,its a scream, you really feel like you are flying (hey Scream & Fly). Come by and give it a try. Its amazing what you can throw together for very little money.
As for the Sea-King I'll bet it could pull a whale, I call the old 9.5s bubble motors. I've had 4 of then and none of them ran well, I'll take an old 10 any day.
Thanks for letting me ramble on.
Oh by the way, has anybody sunk a 4 stroke outboard ? and how easy was it to get running again?

[Capt.Insane-o]

I got a 2001 15 merc, use it for walleye fishing, trolling. Trolls for hours and hours and hours at a dead slow crawl and have never ever had it stall or foul a plug. After these hours of trolling when you grab the throttle it goes with no sputter or complaint, and is the best motor I have owned to date. I have sold and worked on both merc and omc fourstrokes and I would'nt take one if it would save my life. My 2 stroke starts with the least of tugs on the starter rope. 75% of the 4's i've had to put electric start kits because they are a pain in the ass for older people to start. I've also had quite a few returns to where people wanted a 2 stroke again. Presently There are eight 4's in my stock that I can't give away. I took a 15 evinrude and put it by the bait tank for $750 dollars (brand new!) for a week and guess what! NO go! About the only people who are happy with them are pontooners. Now if I need to replace the motor on my viper, let's see I can put a 130 horse honda on it that weighs more than my V-6, makes less power, cost's twice as much to rebuild, sounds like a dead cow passing gas and costs as much as a 225 2 stroke. Hmmmm. Actually I'd like to run one (no rev limiter) and see how long it does'nt last. Yeah, lemme hang that 600 pound honder on the back of my vector....................................................:eek: Oh yeah, I have had to tear apart 2 15 hp mercs, er tohatsu's that fell in the water because the motor mounts broke. Nothing like 4 stroke whipped with water/oil mix, what a mess. Not like a 2 stroke where you just make sure their clean, run a couple bottles of rubbing alcohol through them, new plugs, fresh fuel and start em up.!

[JW]

If anyone does decide to buy a small 4 stroke, compare the Honda to the Merc/Evinrude. Take the cowl off. Take them for a spin. The Honda is WAY ahead of the game compared to what the other two companies are selling. And yes, you do have to have some upper body strength to start a 15 4-stroke motor up. That's ok by me, just means the wife and kid and most visitors cant use my boat :D

[Ron V]

I like the comments on the 4 strokes having more moving parts. That is a good point and one I have wondered about. While it has been proven years and years ago that 4 strokes can be made to turn over 20,000 rpm, I think it is questionable whether they can really last as well when run wide open for extended periods of time year after year. My neighbor always is trying to insult my boat because he has a Malibu inboard with a Monsoon 325 which he claims will last forever "because it's a car engine". Okay, maybe if he cruises at 20 mph all the time, which he does. Turn that thing 5500 for hours on end and we'll see. All I know is I wouldn't drive my car 85 mph in second gear all day long. A small high performance 4-stroke such as in a crotch rocket may be a bit different, but again, let those valves fly around at 8000 rpm for extended periods and we'll see what happens. To get the power they will have to build them to scream. That's the only way they'll beat the power to weight ratio, because the only other way out is cubic inches or perhaps turbo/super charging, which adds more crap yet to go wrong.

My argument has always been that a 2-stroke has less moving parts and always has a continuous fresh oil change.

My V-4 has about 200 HARD hours on it, has always run Walmart oil, and still has the factory hone marks on the cylinder walls. Compression is perfect, and it has only been decarboned once. My dad's 1971 Merc 650 has NEVER been decarboned, has run every kind of oil there is (even JCPenney when they sold it), and has had the **** beat out of it. Probably 800 hours on it and it runs just like it did in 1971. Both of these motors have spent considerable time above 5000 rpm. Maybe that's why the last; we keep them blown out inside.

As for the 2-stroke 15 carboning up, I make the same assessment as Capt. Insane-O. Something is wrong. The days of plug fouling and problems with idling for extended periods were basically over with in the 1950s. A motor may load up a bit and chug on takeoff, but it's not like it will be crippled from idling for an hour. I've never fouled a plug in ANY motor, even my antiques that run 16:1 gas/oil ratios.

[Instigator]

I say we do some grudge racing here!
14' fiiiiiishin boats with 15's, one two stroke and one with a couple boxs of extra parts shoved under the hood :)
I'll take a 15 OMC 2 stroke please.
7K RPM no problem!
When I was just getting out of Stock Outboard Racing they (APBA) legalized these as A stock (15 cu.in. or less) engines.
Again, a 63 MPH Kilo record w/a box stock power head.
Had one on a 150 lb plywood dinghy I used to have and it would pull my 190 lb ass all over on a knee board.
Matter of fact I've got a 15 fiiiishin motor in boxs in the basement???
Might have to find a 14' tin boat to get into this.
Talked to a guy at the Cinci Boat Show that only does service.
We talked about the 4's and he likes em.
I asked him about the expense of rebuilding and the abuse they are bound to get after they're a few years old.
He says no way, they will put up with the miss use/abuse that the 2's do.
Also figures the expense of major repair to be a major hurdle as well.
And as far as the race Hondas go????
Still say no way!
Barry, if the powerhead is 250 lbs you're going to have a 500 lb motor.
I also find it hard to believe that you can get a 4 banger car motor with turbo/inner cooler and all the neccesary electronics off the scales at anywhere close to 250 lbs.
And one more time I say, they need a gear box to keep em on the pipe.
Would think that Sams story pretty much validates this.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge trubo fan butttttttttttttt?
I just sold a '91 VW GTI that I put a cam, exhaust and chip on, that would smoke the tires (front ones :o ) from a roll at any speed in first gear and it ate every Honda that every pulled up beside it. It was making maybe 150 HP's and it would'nt pull the skin off a grape bellow 5K RPM!
One of the best running Turbo 4 bagers I ever drove was a Mustang SVO with a turbo 2.3 Pinto motor, it was a rocket.
I think around 225 HP's from the factory but again, it took 5 gears to make it work.
Try leaving a light in 5 th gear.
Pretty much what we do with our boats.
Pick your prop pitch, thats the gear you're stuck in!!
Sorry guys, 4 stroke O/B's??
YUCH!

[KaptainKirk]

Use ta race a SVO 84 WITH 86 mota dial a boost and the laugh gas.
God that car was fun but NO PARTS LASTED!!!!

[Instigator]

Yep, that car was a blast to drive!!
The 2.3's were pretty slick little motors.
What kind of racing did you do with yours??
Street?

[laser]

Neat cars for a stocker.

I use to encounter some at Hillclimbs, never got beat by one though. :)

http://www.me.mygarage.com/blkotr6.JPG

[Instigator]

We used to have the IMSA GTU Champion Mazda racer living hear in Columbus Ohio for a long time.
Think he won Daytona 24 several times.
Can't remember his name?? I want to say Kelli somebody??
Had a big car dealership??

[tombrown]

I thought the main problem with running a converted car engine in a boat was heat dissipation? There are problems converting them for operation in aircraft service too. As I understand it, they just weren't designed for continuous operation at 70-80% power. The problems appear to be in the crankcase, although some engines can take it, and cooling.

Does anyone know how round cylinders tend to stay in high hour marinized automotive engines?

[LaveyT]

Just wait till they put the catalitic convertor under the "super size" cowling! Yea ha

[TUG]

:o OH. OH, I'L BUY THAT FURA DOLLAR!!!

[B.Leonard]

I just pulled the power head on my 235 yesterday to get it Rumble ready. It took about 1.5 hours, and that was while watching my 1yr old and 2yr old, they handed me wrenches :p

Had it on the bench and half disassembled in another hour. All the while I was thinking "What if this was a 225 Honda?" "How easy would this be?" I shudder to think :rolleyes:

-BL

[Sam Baker]

If you look at motorcycle racing, what is the PREMIER class. GP which have typically been 500cc two stroke engines. The reason you don't see cars or motorcycles with two stroke engines is because there wasn't any technology available to make a 2 stroke clean enough to pass emissions tests. The fact is, you can't beat physics. A motor that takes two strokes to complete a power cycle is going to be lighter and more powerful than an engine that takes 4 strokes to do the same work.

There are a ton of factors involved too. Namely torque. A 4 stroke motor is a better car motor and large boat motor because of the all out size. I don't see us dropping a 496 C.I. outboard on the back of our boat anytime soon. However, the Mercury engine is 425 HP. Can you imagine how much horsepower a 496 C.I. 2 stroke would put out.....probably close to 700 or so.

I believe 4 strokes are very viable for engines of 25 horse and less. The weight difference isn't going to be a whole lot different and these engines are used differently from the higher horsepower motors.

With the large steps forward in technology, the 2 stroke CAN (I didn't say will) stick around. I certainly hope so.

Sam

[espen]

Hi!
I think we dont like 4 strokes because the marine inboard engines are big and to heavy, gray iron heads,grey iron manifolds,its made as clumsy as possible with no toughts for weight. If it would be installed in a displacement boat and not in a planning boat I would get it.....(No good for flying!)
They make a lot of horse power for each dollar spent but thats about it...a 2.5l Merc thats engineering !
Its like Graham Chapman the legendary founder of Lotus cars.
One of his engineers came to him bragging about the great torsional stiffness of a car chassi they had made in glass fibre....Chapman was dissapointed ,told him to go to his office ,there he showed the engineer two cups one of chineese porclein and a army cup.
He asked him :Which one has the quality?????


I started to play with the tought of putting the engine on the picture below into a light boat ,this is maybe one of the better engines ever made, 340hp from 3,8l. The block probably weights more than a compleate drag efi...it was to damaged to...

[laser]

That sounds like Jim Downing, however last I heard he was in Atlanta. Might not be the same guy.

The lack of mainstream success for the rotary is also what two strokes are famous for: Poor emissions and poor fuel economy. I hope like hell that this doesn't happen to our outboards as well.

It doesn't appear that the current four strokes are any better when you look at the big picture. I would like to see a comparision between a five or ten year old 2 and 4 stroke and see how they look then.

Sadly that won't stop the tree huggers from promoting their own agenda. Which appears to be outlawing all forms of recreation, except for their own of course.

What I see is that it isn't about pollution so much as they just simply don't want us out there. They just want it all to themselves.

[espen]

Its just unfair, thats why we want to screaming isnt it? :-)
a few hours boating is not the problem with pollution, its the dayly driving that all of us do, yes the tree huggers does it to!
Much better if we all got 50 foot cruisers with tons of crap inside

What about pretending the scream is a political thing , a slogan contest?
Screaming for the right to be free?
Screaming for the right to have fun !
Screaming to stop burning the rain forrests! (that would give the tree huggers something to think about ....) (If we cant beat them join them?)

[Way2Fast]

Too bad we couldn't look into a crystal ball and see 5-10 years down the road. In my opinion the two stroke (I have always referred to them as "Two Cycle") engines will be nearly non existant. The reason won't be because the EPA or other government agency has killed them as much as it will be because the public wants the more dependable, fuel efficient, better performing (read...FASTER) 4 strokes that will be available. When you view all the problems people have with the 2 stroke motors on this board, it is a wonder anyone supports them. The manufactures have to charge exorbitant prices because they know how many warranty repairs/replacements they will have to make. In one of his posts, Sam mentioned PWC and snowmobile engines. A year ago no one ever considered a 4 stroke PWC engine could ever be competitive with the 2 strokes. Now, Bombardier, Yamaha and Honda all have them. A friend of mine works as a driver/tester for Bombardier. Their new 4Tec engine, to be introduced as a 2002 model is so superior to any of the 2 stroke engines that all the test operators would rather operate PWC with this engine than the ones with the old 2 strokes. It outperforms the old engines in every way and the fuel economy is unbelievable. "Charged" engines are being tested and developed that will soon take over the high performance catagory and will rule the race circuit. Things are happening very fast and it won't be long before only a few old 2 stroke diehards remain........just wait and see !!!!

[JW]

This board started out as, and still is, a predominately 2 stroke Mercury 200+ hp message board. I prefer the 2.5 2 stroke over all other motors myself, but I can see the writing on the wall. That's why, when I had a 2 stroke Merc 15 and a 4 stroke 15 Honda staring me in the face for the same dollars, I went with the 4 stroke Honda. It's a proven engine, and I'm sure it will hold a better resale value years later because of the changing outlook on our toys. We're too small a body to do anything about it, and fortunately the big 4 strokes will get much better over a very short time. They're coming, might as well get used to it.

[LaveyT]

The reason most of the pepole on this board have problems with there motors is that they are modified Hypo engines.Hotrodders cant keep their hands of off them! If you buy an outboard that revs under 6500 rpm and dont touch it it will last forever! A 280 or a 260 is a headache waiting to happen,
any motor that revs 7000 plus rpm is gonna give you trouble.
But thats the way hotroders want it!Ya wana play,ya gonna pay!
I got 13 years out of a crossflow with VRO with no problems.
how reliable is a good ol 350 chevy with a big cam and a tunnel ram?Fine for the strip,but ya dont drive it to work with 4:10 gears
on the high way every day to work!It will break,By your logic a 350 cheverolet is a piece of junk, dont run it 7,8,9 grand and its fine.
Thats the same as putting a 22" Yamacopy on an 7500+ rpm motor and wondering why it dont last as long as the motor on Granpaws pontoon boat!

[Instigator]

Way2Fast, you don't think that part of the reason that "everyone on this board is having such problems with 2 strokes that you can't believe they still support them" is that they are attempting their own engine mods, cutting heads, experimenting with octane levels and dissconecting rev limiters so they can turn a motor that came from the factory with a rev limit of 6200 to 7500 and 10 grand??
Lets take one of the 225 car mohhtar O/B's and install a cam with more lift/duration, double the valve spring tension, port the head and spin it the same RPM until it runs out of gas or breaks.
Not sure about you, but I would'nt stand too close!:eek:

[Rickracer]

I put 145,000 miles on a self built 327. Running 4.10, 4.56, and 4.88 gears, drivin it 3 or 4 days a week to work, and everytime it went out the driveway, it got twisted to 8200 at least a couple of times before it got back home. 11 years of abuse. Now when it went, it went bigtime. Heads and intake were all that was salvageable. It didn't owe me anything though. :cool:

[tombrown]

Sam, you seem to want to compare equal displacement but wouldn't it be more appropriate to compare them cycle for cycle? That is, wouldn't a more fair comparison be a 248 ci/2 stroke to a 496 ci/4 stroke? That would be just over 4 liters for the 2 stroke.

How does the 4 liter 2 stroke OMC V8 compare to the 496 ci (just over 8 liter) displacement stern drive? Wouldn't that be more fair comparison? I would guess the outboard could easily hold it's own against the big block stern drive, even on a heavy boat. At least, it would be interesting if it were built to have a "similar" torque curve to the 496.

[Sam Baker]

Probably a pretty good comparison. The torque of the 8 liter motor will still be superior to the 4 liter 2 cycle. It would be a good comparison. However, the fairest comparison would be a ficht V8 or OptiMax V8 only because those motors are so much better than the carb V8 was. Too bad it didn't stick around to get the Direct Fuel Injection Treatment - that would've been something.

I read Way2Fast's post and his points are well thought out, however, I've seen the 4-stroke PWC and it is way slower than the 2-stroke PWC and if you know about the PWC market, they're just as speed crazed as we are. The boat weighs a lot more than the SeaDoo 2 cycle boats too, so maneuverability is greatly different (read worse) than the 2 cycle.

Reliability is not inherent to engine design. If that's the case, then the montra of "4-cycles have more parts...therefore more things to go wrong" would be true. The biggest difference between a boat engine and a car engine is the ability for a car to shift gears and to keep the engine in it's power band. Try running your car engine at 6000 rpms all day and see how long the valve train holds up. Motorcycle engines don't last nearly as long as car engines do (larger engines like the Gold Wing are really small car engines in my opinion).

The amount of havoc a single geared motor endures is night and day from a car. The prop is in and out of the water, etc. Imagine having to drive your car on roads with patchy ice in 3rd gear all the time. The engine is lugged down at the start, has a hard time getting grip, then when you finally do get going, the tires are spinning every once in a while, then hooking up.

Let me know how reliable a 4 stroke motor is in those conditions, then we can truly compare a 4-stroke motor to a 2-stroke motor. This is all new ground (or water in this case) for 4-stroke motors. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I do feel that a well-built reliable two stroke will always have a power to weight advantage over a 4-stroke. Also, as the recent studies have shown, the 2-stroke has nearly identical fuel mileage and superior emissions......

[espen]

I think they can make the High Performance 2 strokers as clean as the others ,take a drag efi and put injectors or two on it like the Yamaha hpdi uses ,You probably could use the existing efi controller maybe with a better/more amps drivers.(if its sequential )
Its just a matter of injecting after the exhaust is closed !
I have heard motorcycle 2 strokes with regular injectors mounted
in the back wall just over /beside the boost ports .

I tested a 2.5l200hp xri with a exhaust gas analyser for cars....
2000 ppm hydrocarbon emision at idle at 2%co... cars with cats are giving about 50 ppm.... I put the sniffer inside the gas can to measure the fumes, about the same as the xri gave. 80% fuel savings at idle are the optimax claming......
I would prefer to get towed on waterskiis behind a optimax than a 260!

[Way2Fast]

I have to disagree with Sam and his views on the 4 stroke personal watercraft from Seadoo. In identical 2002 GTX hulls the 4Tec engine is 3-5 mph faster than the 2 stroke Direct Injection engine and the fuel economy is almost 1/3 better. The 4Tec is quieter yet has a more muscular throaty sound. It also revs to 73-7400rpm while the stock 2 stroke won't reach 7 grand. Granted the 4 weighs more...80lbs....BUT it is a 3 cylinder not a 2 cylinder engine with 1494 cc vs 951 cc putting out 155 hp vs 130 for the 2 stroke. I realize that we may be comparing the exact same hull but not the same size engines. Had the 2 stroke engine been made the same cc as the 4Tec and had another cylinder, the horsepower may well have been over 155 and the speed increased accordingly. However it would weigh at least as much as the same size 4 stroke. (Yamahas 3 cyl 1176 cc 2 stroke actually weighs MORE than the 4Tec engine) Seadoo is in the process of testing blown 4 stroke engines that outperform any available 2 stroke in all perimeters. They will be the engines of the future and no one will miss the old 2 strokes !! Like I said in my other post....wait and see!!!!

[Sam Baker]

I stand corrected. I had seen a different boat with a different motor. Thanks for correcting me on that. I think you're right though....in the end, the better technology....and the consumer will win. My only MAJOR concern is that this technology race doesn't add $5000 to the cost of already rediculous engine prices.

I'm all for getting the environmentally better engine, but that's secondary to my performance requirements. I won't buy a 4 stroke engine because it's cleaner, but if it's the same weight, same speed, and same all around performer as the 2-stroke and it's the same price, I'd consider it. That's their challenge.

Sam