Helmets: Auto or Motorcycle?

[2fast4mom]

I've been looking at helmets and it seems there aren't really any specific ones designed expressly for powerboating. I've also checked out sites like the APBA and there are very few guidelines for helmet specifications.

What's the conventional wisdom or consensus from those that know, are motorcycle helmets or automotive helmets offering the best protection in our sport?

It seems like motorcycle helmets are designed for a crouching rider with head leaning forward...from this perspective it would seem that automotive might be preferable. But I'd sure like to hear from some people with experience and their recommendations as to which type, and/or brand they like.

[Forkin' Crazy]

I am looking at a motorcycle helmet. From what I understand they are more water proof as materials go.

APBA I thought required an orange helmet. Maybe that's only off shore.

I know it will be white. Gotta keep the head cool! :D

[GP-1]

Find one that's comfortable.. That'll be good enough.

There are always gonna be the arguements about whether a helmet will do more harm than good if you get tossed from your boat, but as far as helmet quality goes, they're all pretty good. The big price difference you'll find in the "higher quality" (Arai and Shoei) helmets is mostly due to features -- venting and such. The more expensive ones also tend to be a bit more comfortable.. in my opinion anyway... As far as protection goes, there isn't too much difference..

[David_L6]

Look at the shape (mainly talking about full face helmets here).... Get one that looks like it will go through the water without the water catching any odd shapes or vents or anything.

I have used Bell Star, Star II, GP Royale, M-4 and Shoei RF-900. I liked the GP Royale and the M-4 the best.

I've always heard that open face is safer for use on water than full face due to the greater chance of a full face "bucketing" (trying to pull your head off if you go in feet first). However, I saw the results of a kneeler hydro racer going face first through the front of his boat after stuffing it. I'm going to stick with full face helmets.

[Raceman]

I've probably got a half dozen that I've accumulated over the years, and don't have anything that I DON'T like, but my favorites are the motorcycle full face type that hinge and let the lower par come up either with, or independently of the visor. I got one of them several years ago that has latches on both sides, but found one last year with one latch centered in the bottom (opens with only 1 hand) and I like it best. It was at the local Harley shop and was inexpensive in comparison with some of the Bell helmets I've bought in the past.............. less than 200. if I remember right. I think I like it better than any helmet I've ever owned.

[QUICKSILVER]

You might want to look here http:www.smf.org/testing.html

[Balzy]

Do a search here for HELMET RESTRAINTS. That is a must. Personally, i likie the Simpsons. I use the Bandit series.

[GPI Racing]

(this is not meant to step on Balzy's toes)

I know a little on this subject having crashed a few times in my life. I have also lost some friends in the process, some due to the "helmet" issue. The following is my feeling on helmets, having run open face, full face, in capsules and been tossed out of non-capsule boats. I STRONGLY feel that a helmet should be tight fitting but NOT strapped on when in a boat. Even the helmet restraints are not the answer in my opinion. Why???
The helmet has so much more surface area than your head. This is why your head ROTATES during a crash in the water and breaks your neck. Most think it is the forward/backward motion but that is not the case in the majority of crashes. I feel, let the helmet absorb the initial impact with the dash, etc. then get rid of it! I've seen the front strap of the helmet restaint system ( I own one ) ripped off like it was made of plastic. The forces are too strong so let the helmet rotate not your neck. In a capsule boat you would think your safe, but a good example is Al Tucker at this years OPC nationals. I've seen pictures of his helmet 30ft in the air during his crash. He is so lucky that his neck is still in one piece. He had the helmet stapped on,(in a canopied capsule) but the water pressure tore it off with such force the helmet flew away like you punted it. He was so sore for weeks afterward.
This is not meant as a preach post or anything like that. I would not want to see any friends out there get hurt due to the thing that you would think is supposed to help them. My feeling is I'd rather take the chance of being in the water without my helmet (it would have done it's protection job on my way out) than risk my neck as it tries to rotate my head around backwards. Anyway that is my preference and I'll guess this opinion will get some people boiling.

Randy

[Riverratt]

You definately have made some very valid points that I have never realy thought about.

[EFI25]

I have seen some people cut the " D " ring strap so the helmet will come loose after the inital impact. I think the theory here is if you go in head first you might be okay but if you go in feet first it will let the helmet pull off when it acts like a bucket.

[tabararacing]

I really like my Simpson Bandit helmet. Its actually made for car drag racing, but its VERY comfortable. It's snell approved. The simpson bandits cost a bit of dough, but, I think anyone who tries one on will buy it. The helmet is wired up for communications so I had it fit quite snug!
Brian
PS: Tiger has a website with alot of good safety equipment. I urge anyone who hasn't seen it to go over to his site and see whats out there.

[Forkin' Crazy]

Damn, and I just bought a new Lifeline helmet restraint system..... :(

[GP-1]

I really like my Simpson Bandit helmet. Its actually made for car drag racing, but its VERY comfortable. It's snell approved. The simpson bandits cost a bit of dough, but, I think anyone who tries one on will buy it. The helmet is wired up for communications so I had it fit quite snug!
Brian
PS: Tiger has a website with alot of good safety equipment. I urge anyone who hasn't seen it to go over to his site and see whats out there.



Hmmmmmmm. You are the first person I have ever heard that thinks a Bandit is comfortable.. To me, they're the most uncomfortable, noisy, air-leaking mess there is.. That probably doesn't matter as much in a boat as it would on a bike riding 80-90 mph for hours at a time.. It's just that it's an old design.. They still look cool though..

[QUICKSILVER]

That Bandit helmet looks like it has all kinds of ridges, slots, scoops, and hangers to grab the water and rip your head off.

[GPI Racing]

Just to add to the replies,

While I prefer to have no strap I do think the restraint is better than the chin strap if given the choice. Just don't put the rings in the helmet with bullet proof fasteners if at all possible. That way if it really pulls hard it will break the connection rather than your neck. Just a little more opinion.
( I have crashed hard enough to break the chin strap right out of the helmet. They were not cheap helmets either. My neurologist advises me leaving the strap off! He showed me how far your neck can twist and it's not that far. My present helmet is an Arai GP 5 that was worn by Kimi Raikkonen [West McLaren Mercedes] of F1 car racing fame. I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to get this one a couple months ago. Super light and nice fit. From what I've been told they sell for way more than I paid for it.)

Randy

[Scream And Fly]

Great discussion guys- Randy, you make some excellent points for us to think about.

Greg

[Balzy]

Randy, No offence taken. You and I have had this discussion a few times. I agree with some of what you are saying. I did have Security make my restraint from a 5 -point into a 6-point to stop just stop what you are talking about. "The Twisting." One front, One back, and four side straps and it's pretty damn hard to get your head to twist. Without the one front you had to set the sides too damn tight to keep your head from rocking back. With it you can set them so you have enough movement to see a little bit to the sides. I am not saying they are comfortable at all. They are a real pain in the arsh to put on and take off for sure. I still like the secure feeling I get when it's on and adjusted right though. To each hsi own I guess.

Also, I talked to them about the pop rivits they supplied. First thought was to use something more substantial. They said "NO" they are designed to slow the movement of your head, not stop it. If the crash is violent enough they want the fasteners to let go.

GP1, gotta disagree. I have had Bell Stars, Star I's, Star II's, Starr III's, Simpson Voyagers, Bandits, and Super Bandits. I still like the Bandit series. If ya find one that fits your head right I think you would like it too. Maybe ya just got a big head ????????:eek::eek::eek:

BTW, the ridges in the pic of the Super Bandit that Tabara posted is to stop wind Buffeting.

I have a few pictures and an article at home I can post later.

[Jeff Akers]

Interesting topic.
Is there any rule that says you must use the strap and D ring in APBA or any other santioning body? :confused:

[The Big Al]

If you are wearing a helmet for protection and not just cover to keep the elements out. Then you better fasten that chin strap. Now anyone who thinks it will rip your head off, just don't wear it, the helmet is designed to protect your head, not pop off on impack, a added neck brace is a must, this will restrick the movement of the head. But with no strap to hold the helmet on then the neck brace is NOT going to work as the helmet.
My advice for a comfortable fit and the lightest weight you can afford.
If you have a 2.00 head were a 2.00 helmet.

Not straping the helmet is as dumb! Like the old guys who would not have seat belts, they would rather be thrown out of the car than be straped in and let the car save you. The only way a helmet is going to work! Is one that is strapped to your head.

Any restraint system or brace to reduce the neck movement is highly needed.
But they only work as a sysem with the HELMET straped to your head!

Pop off helmet! How stupid!

Al

[GPI Racing]

Evidently You have never fallen out of a boat at high speed or had some of your friends die from the helmet twisting their neck 'till it broke. A neck brace will do NOTHING to prevent the head from TURNING. This is not a car. Not a bike. I have been at this game for over 20 years. The point being missed is that the helmet WILL protect you BEFORE you enter the water. Then it is a liability not an asset. I wondered how long it would take for someone to thrash a personal preference with "expert" advice. I got on here in the first place because unlike a lot of guys on here I have splashed (crashed, fallen out of, got run over) more boats than I have fingers on my left hand. I also have been at the race sites when 5 people (not at one event) I know moved on to the great boating place in the sky because of the helmet.

APBA requires a helmet to be straped on etc. They say this is for liability reasons. The MFG designed the helmet to be straped so that's the way they want it. The helmets they are refering to are ALL land event designed helmets. No one has a good MARINE helmet except the tight fitting water-ski racer helmets. Maybe thats what we all should have in the first place.

I will leave this to who ever, Choose wisely guys...you only get one shot at this. I'm with my pal Balzy, whatever you are confident with is what you should use. Mine is just an opinion base on FACTS that have occured.

Randy

[Mark75H]

Back to the original question:

Bike helmets are tested and rated for water proof glues between the shell and foam; tested and rated for solvent resistance (simulates exposure to fuel); and tested for heat/cool resistance.

Car helmets usually are built the same way; but don't have to be. The theory is that car racers keep their helmets dry, room temperature and away from gasoline.

I'd say it is clear that you should choose an M rated lid to use on a boat.

APBA is constrained by the guys wearing suits; helmets have to be Snell 75 or better ....
'cause it is the standard for most other racing bodies in the US

I am a certified member of the "hell divers club" as the old timers used to call it :eek:

[T-REX]

OK, let me put my 2 centz worth in yher...First, I have never been throwed out a bote wit a helment on!!...I have never flipped one over backwardz(blow over) in a bote...BUT, I have to disagree wit tha loose'nin or removal ov tha chin strap...If it's gunna pop off during a accident, why wear it??...Anuther topic here iz helment restraints...I have lost 2 good frenz that, in the coroners opinion, would still be here if they woulda had them!!...My good friend, Melvin Eaves blew over hiz Marage several yeers ago in Montgomery, ala...He died from stem damage, and his face wuz turned to mush because the first thing to hit the water wuz the back ov his head!!...Helment bucketed water...Anuther buddy, Wally Joffrion blow hiz Marage over while we were river ride'in...He had NO helment!!!...He died from STEM DAMAGE!!...Stem damage iz when the head is jerked in a forward motion hard enuff to detach the spine from the base ov the scull and brain!!!...The ONLY thing that will help solve this iz HELMENT RESTRAINTS in an open boat...They are uncomfortable, and if hooked right, restrict head movement almost 100%...If U kan turn your head a quarter turn either way, U may az well not use them...I also prefer a open face, but thats just personal prefrence...But I do use tha 5 point restrains, and they will(in my opinion) save your life!!!...If U would like more professional opinion on wearing a helment/restraints, Call Ro Yale...not have'in one almost cost him hiz life!!

Randy, I no U been wet more than me, and I'm not push'in for an arguement, I am juss give'in my 2 cents, and pass'in on a couple incidents that help me make up my mind...Everyone haz to be comfortable wit what ever they chose, and I hope if I ever go over backwards, I kan stand noze to noze wit U and tell ya U are wrong about restraints...This iz a very good thread, from both sides ov tha fence...REX :cool:

[The Big Al]

How many have died from no helmet at all, or helmet coming off?


A helmet not worn correct , is as good as no helmet at all!

it will not stay on your head for impact, as for as hitting the water with it on!
Well what would happen with out it?

We both know there is no full proof safty device,

If take what I say as bashing sorry, not my intent.
It's my opinion same as yours, I do not agree with you! That's all.
We can debate this over and over 10,000 differant ways.

But the helmet must be worn fastened to your head. It can also ripp your head of when it is loose, letting the helmet rise to the top of your head giving it more levarage against your neck.

I do understand your point about intering the water, I prefer to have it!
Just like seatbelts in an automobile, it has saved lifes, and it has taken.

Al

[2fast4mom]

Thanks guys for all the great information on this topic.

My opinion, I trust the guy who has been thrown out of the boat many times and his neurologist, and who is still here to write about it.

There are obviously strong opinions on this topic, and the discussion really underscores the fact that there have probably been limited or no quantitative studies regarding the physics and decelleration aspects of boat incidents; each one being a different set of parameters and circumstances.

Faces turning to mush, stem separation, heads coming off, all NG outcomes. I can see why these opinions are emotionally charged; every accidental death is so tragic. But I will defer to experience being the best teacher on this one!

[GPI Racing]

Guys,

I never mean to come across "matter of factly". T- rex I'm with you... But I do have documents even going back to the Bob Nordskog days, that proves that the forward-backward motion is not the MAJOR problem in boat racing/fast lake boating. It is the fact that the head rotates (turns left or right past the point of no return)that everybody misses. This is documented in tests of a medical dummy dropped from a helicopter.(by the UIM and APBA) Not to toot a horn, but I have way more info on this subject than I care to admit. Most of you do not know that in 1989 when capsules were first being implimented I ran a Mod VP boat from 100 to ZERO in 6 feet. The cement/rock wall helped the deceleration. This is the steering wheel that was shown in the Discovery show segment. Dale Earnhart was killed when his head moved forward and recoiled back so hard that his brain stem was damaged between C-1 and C-2. When that happen it's "church is out", end of story. I dislocated both shoulders and hence did not recoil back but instead took the steering wheel out with my head. I have some "bionics" because of this. I have a COMPLETE report on #3's crash due to my connections in the study of crashes by the Medical field. (It is way different than the "public" was lead to believe, and that pisses me off. But that's another story) I have damage to my C-1/C-2. I am involved in an on going case study as we speak. If my shoulders didn't dislocate I'd not be writing this.
Not to make this a pissing match.....EVERY accident is different. One senario is not the same as the next. Say what you want..do what you want, but I have been there way more than anybody that's posted here on this thread. Not by choice mind you.....
Balzy and I have had conversations on this subject many times. It's not that I want to sell him something, He is my friend and I NEVER want to see him hurt when I think his odds can be better. I respect his opinion on any subject even if it is different than mine. Hell, if we thought the same, people might talk!? :confused: Nuff said....you are all right in your own respect..

Randy

[GP-1]

"GP1, gotta disagree. I have had Bell Stars, Star I's, Star II's, Starr III's, Simpson Voyagers, Bandits, and Super Bandits. I still like the Bandit series. If ya find one that fits your head right I think you would like it too. Maybe ya just got a big head ????????:eek::eek::eek:"



Well, not the first time I been accused of having a fat head.. Thing is, I might agree with you when compared to the helmets you listed.. Try on an Arai (Signet or Quantum, depending on your head shape).. or a Shoei RF series.. or one of the better Suomys.. In my opinion, Bell hasn't made a competitive helmet since the early 80's.. I'm sure they'll still do the job as far as protection goes, but the just don't have the quality.... I know you live out in the middle of nowhere, but there's gotta be someplace you can check out a real helmet, isn't there? :D


As far as the strap thing goes..... Geez, that's a tough one. Putting on a helmet without strapping it goes against everything I know. I'm thinking I have pretty strong neck muscles, but (as Balzy pointed out) sort of a fat head, so those two might cancel each other out. I guess in the end I'm gonna do it Randy's way.. He has practical knowledge to support his position... but if I smash my (fat) head into a log when I get tossed out of the boat I'm not gonna be happy.. :D

[The Big Al]

Bandit!!!

The Bandit helmet is very popular in Kart racing, reson is it has the largest window for vision, the other simpsons have smaller windows from left to right, cuts down on side vision. Also you will find the Bandit very light.
Also the air vents keep ya head cooler on those very hot days of summer.
The Shark helmet is a good, but break out the bank!



Now this comparision is in the Simpson line!
Al

[T-REX]

I am not, in no way recomending the use, or not use'in a helment or restraints to any one, especially someone I reely don't know...When it's a persons life, and thier personal safety involved, I think they should weigh tha odds, and follow thier own gut to which direction to take...I am juss pass'in on my experinces, and feel'in on this subject...I do not want the news ov a man loose'in hiz life, because I told him to do sumpth'in that directly contributed to hiz death!!...This iz why I only give MY point ov view, and will only say, "IF IT WUZ ME!!", I would do what ever...Az wuz stated, everyone haz thier own experences, and tha senerio's are never tha same, and even sumtimes when they are, tha outcum iz differnt...Now I feel U are here till it's your time to go, but U should take what ever steps nessary to not rush your departing..Thats why God gave us a brain...Use'in it iz always tha first step in any situation!!!

Randy, I kan see from your experences that U have good connections wit tha Big Man Upstairs!!...Our experences are what we learn from...I have been chunked out ov a few boats, jumped out ov a few, T-boned one, and tried to transplant a cypress tree, but all when I wuz young, and indestructable...Seemz tha older I git, tha more I thank about what will keep me from hurt'in, or gitt'in hurt...U kan't guard aginst lifes unknown hold'ins, but I juss try to keep theze ole bones together a lil longer...I hope I never have a skool'in on cement walls like U did, but even that experence holdz a lot ov IF's, and thoze IF's will better prepare U for future situations...U are a lucky man, and apparently U are doing sumpth'in right, so keep on doin it tha way U doin it...Az U said, Opinions, and experences make us what we are...Juss imagine if everbody thought tha way I do, Juss couldn't imagine how this world would be wit everbody bein az smart, an goodlook'in az I am :eek: .....Now, I won't take any more ov your time, so git out ther an git U sum drive'in lessonz, an leern that it's mo comfortable IN tha bote, than bounce'in along beside it!!!...I know U leern from yo experences, kuz U ain't hit no mo cement Wallz :eek: ;) ;) ...Take care, REX :cool:

[Mark75H]

GP-1 could you clarify this:

In my opinion, Bell hasn't made a competitive helmet since the early 80's.. I'm sure they'll still do the job as far as protection goes, but the just don't have the quality.

Exactly what "quality" is lacking from Bell helmets these days in your opinion? Is it that they just don't look right to you or is there something else that you can qualify?

[GPI Racing]

Mark75H,

I just noticed your location discription. "Ragboat capital" , now that's funny!
I've been laughing for the last 15 minutes. I've never heard that one before just "blowboats" and the like. It made my day. :D

Randy

[GP-1]

GP-1 could you clarify this:


Exactly what "quality" is lacking from Bell helmets these days in your opinion? Is it that they just don't look right to you or is there something else that you can qualify?




OK.. I'll point out that this is just an opinion, but it's an opinion shared by tons of people. I'm not saying there's anything "wrong" with a Bell (or anybody else's) helmet -- just that they're no longer considered a "premium" helmet. In the 60's they had their "If you have a $10 head, then wear a $10 helmet campaign", implying that cheap helmets wouldn't protect your head. Well, now they're considered a (relatively) cheap helmet. For the record, they were wrong when they implied that a cheaper helmet wouldn't protect your head.. All helmets must pass DOT specifications, so even the cheapest K-mart helmet probably provides 98% of the protection afforded by a $600 Arai. The difference is largely in the fit and finish, features and comfort. I own about seven helmets -- from a $150 AGV to a $500 Arai. If I'm just riding around town, it doesn't make too much difference which one I wear, but if I'm going any substantial distance I'll alway put on a Shoei or an Arai.. They're quieter, don't wind buffet as much, have better optical quality in the face-shield, etc... Now, I will grant you that in a fast boat --bouncing all over the place -- you might not consider these qualities to be particularly important.. If not, well, my whole point is null and void.. All I was saying is that there is a quality difference between helmets.. In the end, buy whatever you like.. whatever fits you best.. and whatever you like the looks of... They'll all protect you..

[Raceman]

Since my boat had recently run a hundred and mid teens at a kilo, and it was stretched on the back straight, I'm assuming that was about the speed when I went in. I've never known for sure whether the boat hit me, or I hit the bottom, or maybe both, but the helmet I had on looked like a hard boiled egg that had been dropped on concrete on the rear. The neoprene impact vest that I wore under the life jacket looked like a piece of paper that was wadded up, then straightened back out in the area of the right shoulder. I also tripped an Ally in a turn and went out. It was violent enough that it split the gearcase down the middle and sheared powerhead studs (inline 6). In either case, I think the result would've been much different without a helmet, and in the first case have no doubt it would have killed me if the helmet hadn't been firmly attached.

My son flipped a Corvette convertible end over end and the car looked like it had been in a crusher. He and the sheriff (at least he claims the sheriff said it too) are convinced that if he'd been wearing a seatbelt it would've killed him, and he won't wear one now over 10 years later.

All of this stuff is just a gamble. Probably a different angle of entry in either on of my own cases could have made bucketing an issue, but I guess the outcome of both was as good as can be expected. I'm sure there are cases where a restrained helmet proves best and others where it's not.................. we're just guessing at the circumstances and trying to play the law of averages. In my case, I'll always wear one strapped. I'm still unsure about the restraints.

What about the hauns (spelling?) device like the Nascar people wear? Any potential there?

Rex, yo' head is so hard you don't need no helmet and a face impact is liable to help yo' looks, so I'd fly bare if I wuz you.

[CUDA]

In 1985 I was testing my new 475 lb MVP boat getting ready for the big Agusta Ga race. Due to a improperly installed vortex ring on my gear case(it came off) the boat shot straight up and hit the water transom first, I also went from 100 to 0 in about 10 feet. I ended up 10 ft under water, with the only real damage to the boat was my body breaking the dash . Every accident is different so no one answer fits , but I believe if my helmut was on things would have been worse than broken ribs , crushed lung and snaped knee.---And comparing seat belts in cars to helmuts in boats is way off course, I've always wore seat belts in cars, way before it was a law, and always wear a full coverage helmut while on the bike.

[Balzy]

I am not, in any way recommending the use of or not using a helmet or restraint system to anyone. This is completely up to the individual. That's my disclaimer, so if ya crash and wanna sue me, forget it.;)

I think we have hit on one important fact here. EVERY CRASH IS DIFFERENT. Restraints might help in one crash and hurt you in another. The helmet itself might help in one crash and hurt you in another. Hell, seat belts in a car for sure have proven over the years that they might help in one crash and hurt you in another. Raceman's sons Corvette flip is a perfect example of that !!!!!!!!!

You have to decide for yourself what you want to do. It's just too bad we don't know how a crash is gonna go before it happens, Then we could suit up appropriately every time.

Here is a copy of Page 1 of an article Val Collins (Boat Kitten) did for HOTT magazine.

[Balzy]

Yea, that's my ugly mug under the old Simpson. That helmet has since been retired.

Sory about the quality, it's all the site allows for size.

[CDave]

Raceman, the Hans device relies on the safety harness to hold it in place. Not sure a lifejacket would provide enough support, plus they're right at 900 bucks. http://www.hansdevice.com/catalog.php?action=124&item_id=55

Lifelines restrant system is less than 100 bucks.http://www.lifelinejackets.com/catalog_helmets_supportstrap.html

[TACO]

You and I have raced togerther now for a while and you where the one who talked me into the helmet restraint. My question is did you cut off the chin strap when you installed the straps. That was the first thing I did when I put the thing together. It seemed that was the way it was intended to work. You know I test drive 2 to 5 cars every day and I tend to alsways go over 1oomph. in all of them. I've crashed so many cars I cann't remember them all. Boats are much scarIer then cars. With Nick and I getting new boats I'm going to a 3/4 with air. Randy gave hell for thinking I was going to be safer strapped in them in an open cockpit. I listen to him because he has more experience them anybody I have ever met. TACO....DREAMING OF THE NEW DRX

[GP-1]

You and I have raced togerther now for a while and you where the one who talked me into the helmet restraint. My question is did you cut off the chin strap when you installed the straps. That was the first thing I did when I put the thing together. It seemed that was the way it was intended to work. You know I test drive 2 to 5 cars every day and I tend to alsways go over 1oomph. in all of them. I've crashed so many cars I cann't remember them all. Boats are much scarIer then cars. With Nick and I getting new boats I'm going to a 3/4 with air. Randy gave hell for thinking I was going to be safer strapped in them in an open cockpit. I listen to him because he has more experience them anybody I have ever met. TACO....DREAMING OF THE NEW DRX


C'mon Jim....... 100 mph?? No way that 318 is going 100 unless you're going downhill with a BIG wind.... :D :D

[TACO]

The problem is when you build cars for living you tend to make the all fast. the 318i will go 137. The twin turbo 750il v12 was my best ever at 204 on the gps. With no helmit by the way!

[GP-1]

The problem is when you build cars for living you tend to make the all fast. the 318i will go 137. The twin turbo 750il v12 was my best ever at 204 on the gps. With no helmit by the way!



You sure you ain't lookin' at the metric numbers?? :D :D

[Balzy]

No I didn't cut off the chin strap. I don't know if I could get myself to cut the starp on a brand new Simpson ......... :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Tom Foley]

This post has provided some interesting reading and has been very informative as well . I come from a performance motorcycle background and a Stock outboard racing background where I always wore a full coverage helmet with little thought to the bucketing issue . I was more worried about getting run over in D Stock Hydro in the corners than my helmet bucketing ! Well now that I am running around in a boat that is 20 + miles per hour faster than my 82 MPH DSH I am considering wearing a helmet but I am considering an open face helmet because of a possible reduced tendency to bucket in the event of a crash . I welcome all thoughts and opinions on the subject . Current boats are an STV Euro 260 , Mirage River Racer MOD 260 . Thanks guy's . Tom .

[The Big Al]

The problem is when you build cars for living you tend to make the all fast. the 318i will go 137. The twin turbo 750il v12 was my best ever at 204 on the gps. With no helmit by the way!

So no helmet! Does that make you smart? Stupid? or Brave?:confused:

Let's brag about having no brains and big cohoonas!:rolleyes:

[LGT-FST]

A helmet marked sa is special application, usually a car helmet. M is for motorcycle. An sa helmet has a fire resistant liner and is designed for the impact from a roll bar. A m helmet is desiged to be more tolerant of the elements and take a flater impact like the side of a car or a tree. I wore bell helmet's for 15 years. The day I put on an Arai helmet I never went back. The fit and finish is second to none. I broke C1 from a compression in the Miami Superbike race 1991. 90 mph to 0 in 6 feet. Wore halo for 14 weeks. I watched an stv hook left at 113 mph, driver was pitched out. Helmet was removed by water pressure with chin strap still attacted. Driver did not make it.

[T-REX]

"I watched an stv hook left at 113 mph, driver was pitched out. Helmet was removed by water pressure with chin strap still attacted. Driver did not make it."

Does this meen tha helment killed him, or tha lack ov helment restraints???...Juss curious...

Why don't one ov U guyz build a new "MARINE" application helment...Carbon fiber construction wit preasure relief's built in, kinna like decelerator panels on a NASCAR car...Spring loaded panels that will take a lick from outside, but will relieve internal pressure when the water enters from underneath...Best ov both worlds....Hell, could make a special one for Raceman...Full face, wit visor painted black to hide hiz UGLINESS!!!!!!!!!....Juss an Ideer...REX :cool:

[Jason Huber]

So no helmet! Does that make you smart? Stupid? or Brave?:confused:

Let's brag about having no brains and big cohoonas!:rolleyes:
SSR - what exactly IS your point here? With THAT last berating statement, are we to now deduce that by YOUR logic, anyone who travels in a CAR (what Mr. Holman was referring-to by-the-way) without a helmet at a speed over - what; 100mph? 120mph?? Is a moron with a BIG SACK?? Ever' hear of the Autobahn?? What a bunch of morons those Germans are, no-wonder they lost the war... :rolleyes: Your logic would have us roll-back to the "good old days" of the double-nickel National speedlimit? There IS a gas-crisis you know... Seriously, your passion is honorable and may be well intended, but there are just WAY too-many variables, and possible potential outcomes to be beating people over the head with a slippery-slope arguement like this one... Peace! ;)

[TACO]

Well yes going 200+ in a street car is stuipid. But it still is safer then a boat at 125. The road has very few variables compared to the water. I test drive cars to their max potential every day. Always with a seat belt and no helmet. I don"t care what it costs, I will buy the best saftey gear I can buy. but at this point there is no clear answer as to what that is.I do like this discussion and it should continue.

[Jason Huber]

Holman... Hmmmm - isnt' that German?! :p ;)

[TACO]

I'm almost pure Norwiegn. But I am putting a super charger with 2 stage no2 right now. The guy wants it done by thursday. You gotta drive this thing whoa!!!!

[GP-1]

I'm almost pure Norwiegn. But I am putting a super charger with 2 stage no2 right now. The guy wants it done by thursday. You gotta drive this thing whoa!!!!



Two stage with a blower???


Fast and Furious III.... :D :D

[T-REX]

Cars and helments...I have driven a street car 160MPH,(70, 440 charger) without a helment!!!...and, wuzn't uncomfortable, juss got caught up it tha moment...BUT, it wuz a stock car, with plenty ov head room...I saw my brother damm neer beet hiz self to death, in a lil car we built to play in, but IT HAD A CLOSE ROLL CAGE!!...My car had a roll bar, but had plenty head room...He lost control in a turn, and ran out thru tha infield ov our track, which happen to be an old strawberry field!!!...Tha car never turned over, but when it stopped, he dad more knots on hiz head than U could count, and he wuz close to bein knocked out!!...Cages and roll bars, witout helments are look'in for trouble!!...When to wear a helment in a open car, whether it goes 50mph or 150mph, iz a personal call...I luv ME, so I now wear my helment more offen than I did when I wuz young and indestructable...Safety aids wern't made to kill people...and for every arguement show'in a safety device hurting, or kill'in sumone, theres 100 show'in wher it saved sumones life!!...I went to a skool once when I wuz a cop, and I had a trooper make a statement I never forgot...quote "I NEVER ONCE, IN MY 28 YEERS OV SERVICE, UNBUCKELED A DEAD MAN FROM A SEET BELT"...I didn't like bein strapped into my vehikle then, but it's juss habit now...I'm sure sumone kan recall an incident wher sumone died while strapped in, but in tha same breath, they also kan recall hundredz saved by being strapped in!!...SAFETY EQUIPMENT SAVES LIVES!!...a simple, but tru statement, no matter which side ov it your on...

I know this started with Helments in boats, which open a new can ov worms, but even with tha bucket'in affect, tha helment iz a safety device, and will aid in save'in your life...Chances are, if U die from a "Bucketing event", U would have died even without the helment!!...I am reely suprized to see how many ov U guyz choose not use'in safety equipment, even tho it iz a personal choice...I used ta heer my ole man say, "Do az I say do, not what I do"...But it would have been a lot easier for me if it would have been juss leern from what he did, and not wunder why he wuz tell'in me one thang, and doin anuther!!...I recomend tha use ov safety devices...all ov them...unless ya don't like yaself :rolleyes:
SAFETY DEVICES DIDN'T GIT THIER NAME FROM BEING UN-SAFE, AND KILLING PEOPLE!!....Juss my 4centz. REX :cool:

[ProComp]

Agreed as long as the safety device is being implemented for their designed/engineered use. Problem is, no one has really "designed and engineered" a helmet for boat use like we do so we have to compromise with what is out there.

A crude example would be seats belts. Safety device in a car but you wouldn't put one in a boat.

Good reading guys.

B-RAD

[GP-1]

Agreed as long as the safety device is being implemented for their designed/engineered use. Problem is, no one has really "designed and engineered" a helmet for boat use like we do so we have to compromise with what is out there.

A crude example would be seats belts. Safety device in a car but you wouldn't put one in a boat.

Good reading guys.

B-RAD


You ain't spending any real money on a helmet to protect YOUR head, are you?? :D :D :D

[rock]

I personally don't like wearing a helmet. I ride a motorcycle and don't care for the reduction in hearing and somewhat limited visability. I also don't like the way your head and neck react to the increase in mass. T-Rex had a great idea with the mention of the roof flaps but what could be done to counter the increase in mass when going in head first. This is a very interesting discussion and opinions by those with tons more experience than me have got me thinking. I have raced stock cars and would not think of going on the track without a hat. Even though I don't often wear my helmet while on my bike, there is NO doubt it will save your life and significantly reduce the possibilitiy of a more serious injury. I am however still up in the air about a helmet in a boat. I have worn them and will continue to wear them in any kind of organized event. I asked a couple years ago how many guys went on their weekend boating trips and would run their boats wide open without safety equipment. It is surprising how many do so without even a jacket let alone a helmet. I hope someone, someday is able to address all the special needs of boat racers and comes up with something fool proof. I still remember how bad I freaked when told the cost of my new Shoei but I bought it anyway....... for a $5 head.
Rock

[ProComp]

No but you should. If you loose one more brain cell you'll need to be spoon fed!!! eek: :D

B-RAD

[GPI Racing]

Going back to the original "bitch" I have with the helmet mass. Look at the water ski racer helmets. Unfortunately no boat race organisations will let us run one but the difference is massive. It is DESIGNED for marine use. If I was going to strap something on this would be it. While there is an argument for "safety" equipment and it should help you, an automotive helmet is NOT designed to be dragged through the water. It is to protect you from impacts. You can repair broken cheeks (I have first hand knowledge in this :confused: ) you can't repair a broken neck. And for the guys who say there is no evidence that the helmet caused the death of some boaters...How much room do you have here for me to post the list? It is documented many, many times. And do you really want to see it?
This is not me in a rant... Just don't judge safety on conjecture. The helmet helps in the boat, but when you are sliding in the water coming to a stop, the forces from the water cause your head to TURN. That is the major problem.
How about this::::(APBA will not allow this for fear of lawsuits) I have a plastic quick coupler for my helmet strap on my sled. In a crash if the helmet "grabs" on to something and I'm still traveling, it breaks with pretty light force and my neck is much happier. I've tested this feature on occation. (really! :rolleyes: ) Now we've satisfied the guys that want to strap it on and it will fail the strap before your neck does. :D

Food for thought guys....

Randy

[new2.5]

I want to race IHBA drags and they require the SA, they claim they are safer as they are designed to bang around against roll cages and such. When you can find a helmet with both an M or SA rating, the SA is always about $100 more...


Does anyone know what the NJBA requires for a helmet?


thanks new2.5

[white03]

I've been thinking of buying a helmut...and this is a great thread with some well thought out opinions and experiences.

Can somebody post some sites that manufacturer the water ski racer helmets?? I would like to see what they look like and what their characteristics are.

Thanx

[CDave]

Here ya go, http://www.thinkhelmets.com/hydrognprod.htm

[GP-1]

I don't think I want one of those...



... they are "developed in no way to be protective".....


What does that mean?

[Balzy]

That's too funny !!!!!!!!!!



THINK HELMETS LTD. has made every attempt to build our products to be as safe as possible. However, neither THINK HELMETS LTD or its dealers are in any way responsible for any injuries, losses or damages sustained while using these products.
These helmets are not DOT or Snell certified and are in no way developed to be protective. The wearer uses these products at their own risk with full knowledge of the risks involved in their activities.
Though no activity is 100% safe and no helmet or other headgear can provide 100% protection against injury or death, the wearer can greatly reduce their chances of serious injury, or even death by using good judgment regarding safety and not to perform maneuvers that may be beyond their capabilities.


I also am not too keen on these because the snouts stick pretty far out, leaving a better chance for grabbing the water if you go in feet first on your belly.

[CDave]

I also am not too keen on these because the snouts stick pretty far out, leaving a better chance for grabbing the water if you go in feet first on your belly.
I guess that is why the under side of the helmet looks like this. From studying the pictures of that helmet I'm guessing that strap on the side of the helmet cinches up the linning on the underside of the helmet around your head? But what do I know I use a motorcylce helmet, Shoei and KBC.
http://www.thinkhelmets.com/images/product%20pics/hydrogn2bottomlinerMD.jpg

[Balzy]

What is that flat area in the bottom of the snout? It looks like fabric. I would guess that would just get moved out of the way and let the water in anyway. It's possible I guess that the slots on the top may relieve some of the internal water pressure though. I don't think any of us have found the ideal helmet for what we do yet. But what do I know I use a motorcylce helmet too, Simpson.

[CDave]

Yeah, I'm guessin' that's some type of fabric. I figure what they are selling it for is water sports. So I'm guessin' most users are only doing 15-30mph on the water. I don't know anything bout these ski helmets I was just curious.

I did find this carbon fiber full face helmet. :eek: Don't know if my head is worth that much. :| J/K
http://www.motorspot.com/helmets.html

[GPI Racing]

Guys,

While the thread here has gone many different ways, I've noticed that most here seem to be concerned about impact protection and brute strength. While most helmet are designed for protection from asphalt and concrete, keep in mind that none of this is present in a boat crash. I've read all the posts here and not many are getting the fact that the bucketing effect is not the problem I have stressed even though it is present. The water forces ROTATING the helmet is a documented fact and has resulted in several deaths. When choosing a helmet, I would stress less reliance on "impact protection" as your number one goal. The simpson bandit like Balzy's is small and close fitting to your head so I like that fact. Small is good. The clip that I use to fasten the strap is made by a company called PowerMadd. It is a whopping $8.25 retail. It is call the "speed clip". Go to www.powermadd.com and it is part number 81060. BTW the water ski racer helmet I refer to are open face and those guy "ski" at 90 and 100mph like at the Catalina Ski Race. I have an Arai GP5 helmet myself and it is very tight fitting and not overly bulky. It weighs like a pound or something...really light. Have fun and check out the "speed clip", it may save your neck...

Randy

[GP-1]

You might crack-up at this.... but given the opinions posted here, a hockey helmet might actually be the best fit.. They're ventilated.. New ones have a cage for a face protector (which won't hold water), and their mass (weight) is such that it would minimize the rotational forces on your head that Randy was speaking of... Now, getting a bunch of boating guys to drive around with helmets that say "CCM" on them may be a bit much to ask... but it might work...

[ProComp]

You can where the hockey helmet and I'll where on of these - http://www.bargainmailorder.com/b02.htm

After we race, you can drop the gloves, and I'll put them on! :D

B-RAD

[GP-1]

You can where the hockey helmet and I'll where on of these - http://www.bargainmailorder.com/b02.htm

After we race, you can drop the gloves, and I'll put them on! :D

B-RAD


I don't know.... I'd have guessed that you were on of those kids that had to wear a hockey helmet on the (short) school bus when you were little :D :D


What do you guys do with no hockey up there.... chase polar bears???

[2fast4mom]

GPI, does the speed clip break before your neck does, or is that the idea?

After reading through a lot of the posts it's pretty unnerving to think that no marine standards really exist for powerboat helmet safety. I get the part about the water trying to turn the helmet and also the "bucketing" effect. But when you hit the water at 90-100+, isn't it like concrete at the first impact? Or does the rotational "grab" happen first even at these speeds?

[Mark75H]

You might be right. The velocity pressure of 100 mph is 147.5 pounds per square inch. The velocity pressure of 69 mph is 69 pounds per square inch .... less than 3 square inches would keep a 200 pound driver from entering the water at 69 mph. Much the same as hitting asphalt or concrete.

[GPI Racing]

Not to say anybody is wrong but....I've hit the asphalt and concrete in my day and water at 100 is WAY softer. It is still a fluid. At 100 I can jump in the water and slide around before stopping. The other objects don't give much. I have medical records and bills paid to verify :eek: . Yes, 2fast4, the clip breaks and while you can "feel" it the next day it is not terminal. In a nut shell the water even at fast speeds is still a fluid so the impact is not solid.

Keep in mind that these "tests" of mine were not planned. I just pushed the envelope a little to far.

Randy

[Mark75H]

Please don't take this as an insult or bash, but I've never fallen "into" water above 50 mph. Randy you are the first one I've ever heard claim to have fallen into water and slid in water at 100 mph. All my acquaintences talk about "hitting" the water. Granted it is softer than pavement, no road rash etc.

[2fast4mom]

Thanks Randy and Sam. So what I'm thinking is that the water at high speeds, while its relative density is greatly increased by speed, is still a slippery "lubricant". Randy have any of your falls felt anything like falling off of ice skates; i.e. like a dense, slippery surface?

The image is that of a human hockey puck or a skipping stone across the water, if I am understanding the description of the experience. But at some moment (or rather, instant) the water becomes adhesive to the helmet and will tend to jerk it violently one way or the other. The scheme of the breakable strap seems completely logical in this application: Protection from blunt force trauma, but then a forced jettison if a neck-breaking torque twist occurs.

[Jeff Akers]

I've been watching this thread for a while now and one thing I keep thinking about is the little coller on the back of my life jacket.

Wasn't it made to reduce the bucketing effect of your helmet from a feet first entry into the water? If so why not make the coller go all the way around the front and only flip up when your going feet first, kinda like the (I hate to say this) NASCAR roof flaps? :confused: Just athought :)

This is a great thread and a very important one. some good coments, I'd like to hear more on this subject.


Hey 2fast4mom, I see your from NAPA CA. I grew up there and went to NAPA Highschool, used to hang out at J&G Marine and look at all the purdy raceboats :cool:

[2fast4mom]

Jeff, that's cool! I went to Napa High also (not meaning to hijack my own thread..) Anyway email me at fastxb2003@aol.com and I'll tell ya all about J&G Automarine!

Lou

[GPI Racing]

Mark75,

On a funnier note, the first time I crashed a boat (1981) I kind of blacked out during the resulting g-forces. Upon hitting the water, all my clothes were torn (ripped) from me except the lifejacket. Shoes, pants, etc. Luckily my underware was around my left ankle (this was with the leg straps on the jacket). Gathered myself up and asked for a towel upon entering the rescue craft. Having done this numerous times, I can truely state that it's not "like concrete". I say all this stuff because I do care about my friends and fellow boaters, not to start tangents on treads and stuff. Most that know me can vouch that I don't have a ton of time to type stuff up. And I type slow too! :rolleyes:

Randy

[Sonik]

In my wanderings the last few days I did some requisite reading about the controversial topic of helmets and spent some time in this thread absorbing all of the posts.

I'm digging this up NOT for the purpose of rekindling old arguments but since the last post here was over 4 years ago, I was curious as to what steps had been taken in the safety industry, if any, to design a more purpose-built helmet and/or restraint system that is better than what was commercially available in early 2005.

I understand that it is impossible to design a be-all end-all solution to headgear as we all use our boats very differently but the goal in the end is survivability correct? I'd be interested to see if any of these opinions previously posted have changed over the course of time whether it be from more personal experience, word of mouth, or by an improved industry standard.

I would strongly recommend, for those of you who haven't, take some time and read this in its entirety as there are many good points and alot of good info here.

Jeff

[Mark75H]

The Hans device is good and now there are even better devices. They were discussed on the Seattle Outboard Association/Hydro Museum webcast 2 weeks ago.

[JR IN JAX]

I used to have a Laser PWC racing helmet that I also used for motocross since it was Snell rated.
The interior was an "eggcrate" closed cell foam that would not absorb water and would let me wash the sweat/dirt out of it between motos. The eggcrates were tall enough to allow ventilation over the top of your head.
Sadly to say, someone borrowed it and did not return it...