Sub Woofer Shapes ?

[Bama Shadow]

Hey fellas, do any of you have experience with the square and pentagon shaped subs out now ? How do they perform compared to the traditional round ones ? What are pros and cons besides looks ? Not talking brand specific just difference in shapes.

[pyro]

I don't know for sure, but mechanically speaking, I would have to be concerned with these designs, for two reasons:

The flex in the cone. It's not the same distance and shape from voice coil to suround all the way around,which could cause un-even flexing of the cone, and thus, distortion.

The flex of the surround. The "corners" of the sub's surround would be constantly stretching and compressing against itself, unike a round sub. This would generate heat in the rubber, and it would seem that it would eventually deteriorate.

Stick with the round stuff. The square subs and tornado-shaped cones are just gimmicks, like most newer car audio stuff.

That's my .02, anyway...

-Chad

[GP-1]

I had some of the same concerns, but apparently the weird Xtant subs are performing pretty well.. My son's a car audio install manager for Ultimate Electronics and, according to him anyway, they haven't had any more issues with them than any other sub.. and they sell a bunch. I thought about buying them, but couldn't rationalize the added cost (and I buy at store cost) over a traditional sub(s).. Anyway, if you like the way they look, you'd probably be OK with one.. but, as Pyro mentioned.. there's no advantage . and there may be disadvantages down the road..

[j.iverson]

Gary, you get that stuff at cost :eek: Does that mean we are going to hear that V-king coming before we see it this summer :p ? Power and audio upgrades, this could be pretty cool. Now all we need is a Mr. Microphone for cruizing the beach and we're set. :D

[bigbore]

obviously there was another forum about this somewhere else (not trying to be biligerent or nothing)i just dont wanna spend all night here.alright,pyro i can kinda see what your sayin bout the square subs,but everything comes down to the quality of the equipment,im assumin you guys are talkin about the kicker solo-berics,or another type of kicker that is square.solo-berics are quality subs they always have been,i havent been directly in to car stereo equipment for a while,but i remember when it was my thing,when the solo-berics first came out they werent square the thing was,was they had good quality power handling and sound quality,including (SPL- decible power) now obviously that comes from quality construction and higher end parts (cone construction,coil material,coil wiring,coil size,vented pole piece,and magnet. there are so many car stereo brands these days its almost imposible to keep up if you look hard enough you will find equipment that stands out from the rest.no one said that you had to go to american,best buy,circut city,nothing like that,alot of times i would go to a place that specialized in car stereo to find out what i need to know,then its just get the best bang for your buck.another thing to take in to consideration is installing it,its a whole different world in a boat,some of the things im faced with is weight savings,and pyro this barks right up your ally to cause we got the same boat.you have to figure how your gonna power it (sufficiantly)right down to the battery,and how your gonna keep the battery charged,most of you guys know this but the thing to do is buy a pergo switch were you can switch from one battery to the next.i definitely recomend you use at least 2 batteries,anyway pyro the weight in the bow (as you know)can be a problem but it sounds very good undernieth there,so what i recomend is go with a stought 10in. sub and maybe even fiberglass the box.

[1BadAction]

we were always able to make the round late model solo-barics out perform the square ones. BUT there is better subs from smaller companies out there than anything that is commercially available.

[GP-1]

Gary, you get that stuff at cost :eek: Does that mean we are going to hear that V-king coming before we see it this summer :p ? Power and audio upgrades, this could be pretty cool. Now all we need is a Mr. Microphone for cruizing the beach and we're set. :D


Don't say that too loud.. God, if Randy heard that I'd be rowing my boat this summer. Anyway, I doubt I'll be able to do much in the boat -- just don't have the juice (16 amp alternator) to power any amps.. I know Jason was planning a substantial sound system in the Venus, but after discussions yesterday at GPI, he's probably looking at a power upgrade too... Goodbye big alternator/stereo, hello 100+ mph...

Anyway, if you hear my boat before you see it, that'll be Randy's doing.. I'm not really sure what this motor's gonna be like.. I think his definition of a good "lake" motor and mine may be different, but he hasn't steered me wrong yet.. and I'm getting quite a bit of motor for not so much money (and a bit of sweat equity).... Now all my boat needs is a competent driver..

Mr. Microphone?? that would be cool... We could have some incredible drunk sing-a-longs..... Damn, I hope they don't sell those things in Canada :D

[pyro]

Just to clarify, Solo-barics have never been efficient subs (12" sub = 85 or 88 db 1W/1M if I remember correctly), but they don't need to be efficient, since they easily handle huge doses of power, they are very loud, well-made subs...

[bigbore]

i really dont know,whats at the top of the line these days,but for going and buying a sub from american,best buy,,circut city,i would have to think that solo-berics are at the top of the line,know there is an audio shop here in rockford,ill. that sells diamond subs,and im thinkin that they are pretty good stuff,there is also a place that sells orion subs and i know those are good but the problem with them is the efficiency,they require alot of power,and there amps are good but extremly expensive.you always got jl audio but the problem with them a lot of times is the ohm load most of them are 2-3 ohm subs,i had an alpine 12 i believe it was the r series its the top of the line series for alpine it was red and most of the ones you see are blue,that one was impressive,and it required a smaller sealed box (which in weight savings is important)and it didnt require a ton of power,im definitly not sayin that that was the most powerful sub you could buy but it was pretty impresive,and had good sound quality as far as tightness and punchyness,that one was bought from american,like i say what turned me on with that one was mainly the smaller sealed box.now back in the day i owned a soundstream reference 10 its called an ss10r that one was extremly impresive for a 10 (big time)now ive never heard anything impressive out of an mtx,fosgates arent that good,and the whole other lines of ****,theres a ton.and if a guy was to buy quality equipment it would be descent to say the least.

[pyro]

JL's are OK, and they are actually available in many different impedance configurations, both single and dual voice coils. I have three JL 10's in a partitioned sealed box in my trunk, they are 12 ohms each for combined 4 ohm load. They are W0's, (the basic models.) I think they are rated for 125W each, I drive them in parallel with a 300W Pioneer amp in bridge mode, and they sound pretty good. They're not the best thing out there, but they do the job. Lower-power handling subs are often more efficient than the big power models, which is helpful if you don't have a lot of power to work with (or don't want a dead battery); although the big power handlers are capable of higher sound pressure levels with appropriate power.

If you want a good sub for a marine application, check out the Infinity "Perfect." They are some of the most efficient subs in each given size, 10" and 12." Plastic cone and butyl rubber surround are resistant to harsh marine environment, and they will respond VERY well to 200 or even 100 watts of amp power. They are available in dual voice coil models as well.

-Chad

[KIBBEY]

the kicker L5 and L7 subs are about the best suds you can buy,and there square.but i had some jl w6 and thay where great,when you buy subs there alot of different things too go buy.get a sud with a foam surrondings,rudder will get loose and will lose that tight bass sound,foam will never strech.thats why jl uses foam and not rubber,10's are the best sounding suds you buy for the money,cause you can go with a less powerful amp,and 12's are great if you have a nice powerful amp and a good one..not just one that says it has alot of power,amps i would go with alpine,jl,eclipse,fosgate,mtx..thay hold up too there watts. i had the mono jl 1000 x 1 amp and two jl w6 v2 subs and that hit so hard it would stop your heart....almost lol :eek: hope i was of some help..o ya and stick with a duel voice coil sud,,, :)

[bigbore]

hey pyro,i know this much,if you parellel 3 4 ohm subs you are showin the amp 0-maybe .5 ohm loads thats not gonna work there is no amp on the market that can handle that.o is a dead short.5 is very impressive, the only amps i know that could handle .5 at all were the phoenix golds and some soundstream reference amps not even the fosgate dsm`s and the dsm ix`s
could handle that.not tryin to be rude at all (i promise)but you need to wire them in series,how long has it been runnin like that?you should be very impressed with that amp if it has lasted any time span at all.you know as well as i do that a 2 ohm load generly doubles the power of the amp but it is impresive equipment that runs at a 2 ohm load on a consistant bassis.high quality equpment will do that but its not cheap stuff.

[1BadAction]

in super street we would run D6 earthquakes with 2 speakers mono that had dual 2ohm voice coils (measured at the connector with a multimeter), and never had a failure... thats .25 ohm load. I won mutiple SPL competitions with that setup. not to mention using it everyday (not maxxed out of course) going to school and work. there was cars placing in the top 3 two classes higher than me, that had a weaker SPL with multiple amps and twice as many speakers. the biggest problem I had was pulling out a wire lead on the speaker. :eek:

[Bama Shadow]

Great info fells, much appreciated. I am a tightwad anymore and just buy the cheap stuff now :D I was thinking of 2 Pyle 10's or 12's and maybe 600 or so watts to run them. I know back in my days in the early 90's the Pyle's sounded good for the $$ and this is jus sumpen for the wifes car anyway. In my Slomaro I have a wally world setup that sounds really good considering I hve less than 1000.00 in the whole thing. Pioneer head, Pioneer 760w amp @ 2 ohms on 2 Jensen 10's with the cheesy chrome cones, 4 punch 6 1/2 door speakers (from bestbuy) with a cheap 200w amp also @ 2 ohms, all crossed over by the amps no external x-over. I know it wont win any shows but it's loud enuff to dim the headlights and the important thing is it is CLEAR !

Also I remember well the USAmps from my days of spending $$$ on this stuff and is Autotec still in business ? We use to run them @ 1 ohm and sometimes less years ago and they werent bad expensive.

[pyro]

Bigbore, you mis-understood me. My three JL 10's are 12 OHMS EACH, for a total 4 ohm load in parallel. The 12 ohm coils are hard to find, usually you have to special order them, or buy a factory-loaded JL "Power Wedge" 3 X 10 sub cabinet to get them. Mine were obtained this way, but I traded in the original box for a slightly smaller, tighter box.

Unless the amp gives "double" gains in power with the lower impedance, running loads under 2 ohms is unreasonable, because a couple feet of 8 gauge cable alone can equate to a half-ohm load by itself. The whole point of internal high-voltage power supplies is to allow the user to drive a normal speaker load (2-4 ohms) at higher power levels. I have designed and built a few stage amplifiers. All transistors, both bipolar and MOSFET, have some kind of small internal impedance at saturation, which means that they will generate more heat with the lower impedance. Take my Pioneer amp for example:
100 W @ 4 ohms per channel
200 W @ 8 ohms (bridged)
300 W @ 4 ohms (bridged)
300 W @ 2 ohms (bridged)

Although my amp is capable of driving a 2 ohm load bridged, there is no advantage to doing this in my case, because there is no power gain, only wasted heat and more stress to the amp below 4 ohms. Some wannabee kid at a stereo shop was trying to tell me that I will get more power if I were to load it down more. pleeeease... A high-school punk is trying to give me an engineering lesson, and he isn't even familiar with the amp I'm using!

On the other hand, if an amp's rating indeed DOUBLES when the load is doubled (half the impedance, to clarify), then there IS an advantage to running a 2 ohm or 1 ohm load, but this is NOT always the case. The high-end amps tend to be rated this way, because they are properly designed to handle the parallel loads. My amp only gains 33% more power from doubling its bridged speaker load, because that's the limits of its design.

If you DO intend on running 2 or 1 ohm loads (or .5 ohm, God forbid) make sure to use the largest gauge cable that the speaker and amp connections will allow, because resistive losses will be huge with these near-short impedances, possibly greater than the gains associated with the lower impedance and higher power.

Old-school style Pyle speakers are cheap, but very efficient. A good choice when you don't have a huge power amp to drive them, such as a marine application where you don't want excessive current draw from the battery. Just keep them dry.

I was not aware that the rubber surrounds got significantly "loose" over time. I would be more concerned with foam's tenedcy to break down when it is exposed to oil and fuel vapors. I have seen many speakers like the Pyle's with the foam degraded to a sticky crumbling mess, and one of my JL's even has a small spot that's starting to get weak...

[1BadAction]

pyro- some of the best speakers that i used to use were well used ones with rebuilt voice coils and new magnets. the rubber definately "breaks in". the pair that I won the competitions with were dual ribbon voice coils that were a prototype that had been made from my old cones and baskets, and new magnets and VC's. lol

[illMATTic]

i havnt taken the time to read this post but the best speakers i have ever owned were a pair of dual voice coil kicker L7 15" subs. i hit a 152 db at 45 hz. it would make your eyelids shake. they got stolen so i dont have them any longer.

[bigbore]

hey yer exactly right bout the major draw when running an amp at 2 ohms (cars can handle it)even without an alternator upgrade (usually)but boats are a different situation.that alpine sub i mentioned was a d.v.c.4 ohm witch i paralelled to make the amp run at 2 ohms,it would get warm but never hot,hot,but it would drain the battery down after a day of hard runnin.the thing im thinkin now is 2-batteries and a pergo switch that i can switch from both batteries to either one,that way i can totally icolate the battery that is used for the boat,or switch to both if the stereo batery needs chargin,or if im sitin and listening to the stereo have it only on the stereo battery.in theary its a good deal but as far as i know it hasnt been put to the test yet.also i hear them new optima cell batteries are good stuff (not real cheap but if you only have to buy 2 it should be alright)and i should mention it is very important to run about 4 guage wire for main power,to a distrabution block or whatever by the direct hook ups stereo,amp,whatever.alright thats enogh thinkin fer one night my dumb head has a weird pain the peice of sh-t cant even handle a porch step (at about 70 mph.)

[350cavi]

I don't kn ow what exactly has been said earlier in the forum, but if you think about the square Kicker Solo Barac's**, they have more surface area to them then the conventional round speakers. Every little bit adds up in the end;) .

[STV_Keith]

Can't beat Resonant Engineering (http://www.reaudio.com) subs. Take a look.

[mendo]

One of the most impressive enclosures I ever made was a tube. I had some trouble with the flat sided enclosures flexing and becoming resonate at certain frequencies. I designed a tube shaped enclosure that has a speaker on each end with a port in the center. About 80% of the sound comes out the center port and when I bridged the amp mono it was very effective. The tube is a very rigid shape and does not flex. I found it very capable of reproducing sound levels well below 20 hz which is lower than what we can hear. It moves a lot of air as well so you can get the big boom too. If you create any enclosure it is important to tune it by changing the length of the port or ports. Keep the box or enclosure from flexing and use the correct formula for box size. Keep in mind that size does matter and the lower frequencies will not form for about 15 feet at around 20-30hz so in a car those freq will not sound clean until after they have bounced around inside.

[SUPAJAY]

SOLO BARIC L7..... the only thing that comes close is the JL W7..... the Square Solos are amazing ! Nothing hits harder.

[Mage Marine]

Well when it comes to audio systems, I've done some of the best. I think its great this section has a volume on this site. I can say that I have put a stereo system in the biggest rock rolls star in the world at one time, Vedder, from Pearl Jam. AfternI was done it looked like a caddy off of bat man, and sounded like it too. Speakers, well the new designs of the cones that are out there today are actually more coustically sound then the standard older style cone shapes. The hex and square designed cones actually have a stronger mass to weight ratio. Less cone flex at certain resonating frequencies. The X-max has also been increased ( travel of the cone up and down). The amplifiers also have been designed to run two 4 0hm drivers in mono at 2 ohms in parallel, properly. Before previous amps had terrible damping factors at low ohms levels, thats the ability of the amplifier to control the movement of the speaker, in control, not lips flopping in the wind everytime a bass note will hit. So in turn you have tight, punchy bass delivered. Speaker box design is the other half of how good your bass will sound. Location of the box and position of driver will also severly affect how the bass wave needs to develop. Bass boxes sound like shiiiiiii sometimes in open air room or backyard. Sometimes you need to corner load or reverse fire a driver to obtain its power. If you don't have the parameters of the certain driver you are working with and try to shove it in a box from wally world, good luck on it sounding good. Boxes are driver specific, or better put, every brand, model or whatever speaker you have needs a specific enclosure. 2nd order boxes are ones without any ports, 4th order boxes are the same, but with a port tuned to a specific freq. Then you got 4th order bandpass, dual bandpass, isobaric bandpass and so on, not to confuse too much, I could go on forever with this.

A great way to Marine I's your speaker boxes, if they have carpet on them, paint them with polyester resin, or otherwise known as fiberglass resin, the carpet makes a great medium for the resin to meld to, it also soaks into the surface of the particle board, or better quality MDF board. You should take out the driver and terminal cup before you do this process. You can also paint or pour some resin inside the cabinent and waterproof that, especially if the sub box happens to be a ported enclosure. If you haven't tried our heard of doing this you will be impressed, I have done dozens of customers cabinents custom bulit and off the floor this way for a possibly and certainlly wet situation. Fiberglassing enclosures for building pods and the such is endless as well. Anyway, pretty cool site!

[bigbore]

well since there is a good re-action on know howers on this thread then i gotta ask what is the most quality sub a guy can buy as far as spl.acuracy and efficiency,yea i know thats three different things to look for but i want them all combined when i look for a sub.alpine has got a new one out its called the x-series im sure that one is high end but the price is terible 500.00 not cool,when your dealin with high end subs you have no choice but to buy high end power.so come on lets here it right now it looks like everyone is leaning twards the L-7 solo-berics.

[Mage Marine]

If what you really want is just ass slapping bass to shake the holy living crap out of you and any nut or bolt then SPL is the way to go. If you still want to hear the rest of the music, then sound quality is somewhat of an objective. A true SPL driver or subwoofer is just that, it's not acoustically designed to have a wide bandwidth, 40 -80 hertz or so at incredible spl's. On the other hand a normal subwoofer installed in a proper cabinent can play anywhere between 28 hertz to 120, the cherry zone.
If you can see what the slope will look like at any particular cabinent design, I have just about always designed them to have a low end roll off at around 30 hertz and up to about 90 hertz or so, with a 3 db hump in the 45 to 75 hertz range. That gives any sub box and speaker that nice tight hit. Three things to remember, One, the vessel the sub(s) going in greatly affects what cabinent design you can or should have, Two, not every subwoofer works well in different designs, ie; isobaric bandpass and what not. Three, you got to have enough air space to do it in, whatever design you go with. MTX makes a spl driver it's called the RFL, Real ****innnnn Loud. Just about all the good speaker manufactures today are putting out good stuff, you just got to know how to use each ones, specifically, to get great sound! Alpine and others, actually don't even make the subs, another manufacturer actually makes these things, just about for all of the guys. You need to learn more about cabinent designs. Term Pro from Rockford Fosgate, is actually still my favorite subwoofer design to date. I have had the priviledge to review over 6 different software programs for cabinent designing. Anyway more later!

[pyro]

The most efficient sub that I know of is the Infinity Perfect, available in 10" and 12", rated for 300 watts RMS. It might not handle as much power as some of the others, and it might not be as capable of producing "ass-shaking" sound pressure levels as some of the others, BUT:

1. Your motor's charge system can't support a constant 600 watt draw anyway (keeping in mind, an amp can actually draw or consume much MORE than its rated output wattage)
Volts (typically 12 to 13.8) X amps = watts, and don't forget about the other accessories and/or the EFI system and fuel pump.

2. Do you really, really need that much bass? (Are you visiting a lake, or a goddamned ghetto?)

3. If you compared: An Infinity Perfect sub in a compact, sealed enclosure, versus any other sub in a similar box, connected to a good 150 watt amp: The Infinity will be much louder, clearer, and more accurate with this realistically moderate amount of power to work with. The Rockford-Fosgate, MTX, etc will only deliver the huge sound pressures with huge power amps, these high-SPL subs are NOT as efficient. Just some food for thought, since we ARE talking about sound systems in a BOAT, after all...

Another good option for moderate kick would be a powered Bazooka sub. Not the cheap models, I mean the ones with 150 watt on-board power. They are small and efficient, and would require minimal space and wiring to install. Even the tiny 6.5" tube sub has good kick for something so small.

[pyro]

Almost forgot to mention:

Some of the "cheap" paper-cone subs (Pyle, Pyramid, etc.) are actually even more efficient than the "Perfect", but these subs are only typically rated for 50 to 150 watts RMS, and they often begin to distort badly with only half that much power.

And just to clarify:
When I say "efficient", I'm referring to the published specification often referred to as "SPL." This figure does NOT indicate which sub is "louder", it indicates which one is more efficient at lower power levels. Industry standard for this spec is "dB 1W/1M." this means: How loud the speaker is (dB) at ONE WATT of power, at ONE METER distance away from the speaker.

If you compare 10" subs:
The MTX, RF, JL, etc subs will be rated for 86-88 dB 1W/1M, typically.
The Infinity Perfect (NOT the Kappa) is rated for 94 dB 1W 1M.

Decibels (dB) is like a "logarithmic" scale, rather than linear. This means:

1. Such a small difference is actually a huge increase in efficiency.

2. You will need approximately 10 TIMES the wattage to "sound" twice as loud.

3. A 6 dB difference in efficiency means that the speaker will need TWICE the power to achieve the same Decibel output.

-Chad

[1BadAction]

2. Do you really, really need that much bass? (Are you visiting a lake, or a goddamned ghetto?)


blah hahahahahahahaaa...

bigbore, whenever your ready for a no compromise speaker, get a 10" TM-rush Tube and speaker, and have it "Marineized". 1 10" sub in a tm-rush style tube under the bow will be all you need. sandygary@aol.com is the e-mail, and their phone number is (239)369-5252

ps, bazooka tubes are junk compared to the stuff Gary sells.

[GP-1]

Um.......

I'm with pyro here.. Consider your environment here. What are you actually going to be using this for? If you think you're going to have high quality sound in an open boat -- forget it.. It ain't gonna happen. Cars are hard enough to get good sound in, a boat's gonna be almost impossible. Get an efficient sub (or two) that you can drive with a smaller amp.. Actually, if it were me, I'd buy an appropriate four-channel amp and run the whole thing at 2-ohms.. Bridge two for the sub, and run four internal speakers from the remaining channels.. Most (but not all) amps make considerably more power (with more current draw, but you can't have everything..) running with lower impedence, so you get more for less -- sort of. I wouldn't even worry about the quality of the amp all that much.. Despite the audiophile/snob pespective, power is power... as long as the distortion spec isn't bad..

Don't try to re-invent the wheel... Search the internet for a good, name-brand amp -- I'm not big on offering brand suggestions, because somebody's always gonna disagree and say theirs is better -- and an efficient sub and speakers.. and be done with it..

All the technical chest beating here is a waste of time... A truly GREAT car stereo is a matter of many, many hours of experimentation.. The install is always more important than the specific (brand name) components.. You can get great sound with all kinds of different of stuff.. and you can ALWAYS ignore anybody that says you're nuts if you don't get brand "XXXXX" subs..

Good luck...

[bigbore]

done being nice.first of all im not talkin about an extremenly efficient jensen or any other kind of piece of ****,everyones goal is to get the best money can buy without wasting money.there are limits to every situation and this one is no different.there obviously are subs out there that require a retarded amount of power and there are subs that will perform without 1500 watts.and no i dont listen to 50-cent or ja-rule or biggy smalls or puff daddy.but if a guy is going to do something he should do it right,that includes the stereo.its not the most important project of a (modified) tunell hull but why spend a dime on your stereo if its gonna end up soundin like a force trying to start.or a (jbl),anyway if we ever run into eachother ill put on some 2- live crew while i easily walk past ya (PROMISE).

[pyro]

I didn't think I was rubbing anyone wrong, please explain what I said that deserves the "done being nice" comment. I'm just stating some facts here, trying to help.

The Alpine X sub would be an awesome, loud sub if you have 1000 watts at your disposal in a car. HOWEVER:
We're talking about BOATS with OUTBOARDS that typically have 40 amp charge systems at the MOST. 500+ watt systems are out of the question, other than for "show" or for short 5-minute "2 live crew bumping."

You want efficiency. This means you need every WATT to count.
We also like to go FAST. Heavy things slow us down.
The nitty gritty: (10" models)
Alpine type-X subs = HEAVY, 1000W handling, 81 dB efficiency ( <--that's laughable!) $400
Kicker Solobaric L5 = 450W handling, 86.5 dB efficiency (a little better) $250
Kicker Solobaric L7 = 600W handling, 85.6 dB efficiency (needs more power) $350
Infinity Perfect = 350W handling, 94 dB efficiency $150

NOW, the Alpines and the Solos CAN produce higher volume levels than others such as the 'Perfect. This level of performance cannot be achieved without LOTS of power. "Wildman" puts some massive 1000W systems in his boats, but a lot of that is all about the "show" factor, and simply making a statement. These are also usually in twin-engine installations where there's enough charge capacity to support the current draw.

All I was trying to say, is that with a 150 watt amp, the Infinity Perfect will likely be LOUDER than the Solobaric or the Alpine X.

So, shoot me down, and tell me I'm wrong here:
You DO want to stay light and go fast.
You DO want efficient, clear bass.
You DON'T want a dead battery.
You DON'T want to spend any more than you have to.

Regarding 2 ohm operation:

Any GOOD AMP's 2-ohm wattage rating will be DOUBLE the 4-ohm output.
If it is LESS than double the 4-ohm rating, the amp will typically run cleaner and more efficiently at 4 ohms instead. Most amps with 2-ohm or 1-ohm capability will run HOTTER with MORE distortion (THD) when running such loads. "Hotter" means more of your current draw is being converted to HEAT instead of speaker output power. I have designed and built my own amps, and this is FACT.

A sub with a dB rating of 88 will typically require TWICE as much amp power to produce as much sound pressure ("volume") as a sub with a 94 dB rating.

The "cheap, extremely efficient" subs, like the Jensen, Pyle, etc, will distort easily if you push them hard. They are not meant for Earth-shattering volume. They are poor choices for a boat anyway. Their paper cones may be damaged in a moist, marine environment.

Speaking of Jensen: One of the most efficient subs I've ever come across was the pre-loaded 2 X 10" Jensen bandpass sub, I think it's no longer available. Its dB rating was 106! It was only rated for 100W per side. We installed one of these in my friend's car with a 150W amp, and it was almost as loud as my 3 10" JL's with 300W power. That sub was only $150, complete! Bandpass boxes are not as accurate as a sealed box, but they are loud and boomy, if that's up your alley.
Beware of the cheap off-brand 2 X 10 bandpass boxes they sell at Best Buy now. I tried one, and it was HORRIBLE. Very inefficient for a bandpass, very muddy voicing, and NOT capable of much volume.

OK, Bigbore, now you can flame me and tell me I'm "full of it."
Spend every dollar you've got on your Alpines, and play your 2 Live Crew, while your "Seven Bizzos" come over and hang out with me. Your boat will certainly be faster than mine due to the difference in passenger load. :D

-Chad

[bigbore]

there is no sense in gettin into a bickering match on the web site,obviously there are plenty of forums that people have posted that we could help in instead of bickering.i personaly have had good luck with people on the web site anyway,so i dont feel like ruining it all.obviosly im not gonna know what i want for sound equipment until i go out and check everything out anyway there is some advise worth checking out on here though.

[pyro]

Well said. Bickering is bad. A little sarcasm is healthy and harmless. I really didn't mean any offense, and I haven't been offended.

If we ever hook up at the lake, we can share a couple beers and talk about loud stereos, fast boats, and which Bizzo is the hottest...

-Chad

[GP-1]

[QUOTE=pyro]Well said. Bickering is bad. A little sarcasm is healthy and harmless. I really didn't mean any offense, and I haven't been offended.




Geez... you guys are both sissys. :D I was waitin' for the rocks to start flyin'.......

[Mage Marine]

This a great site!

[150aintenuff]

is that a 300 or a 2.4.. good looking boat anyway.

[Mage Marine]

It puts out a little bit more though, with all the mods. Lower 90's is okay with the setup how it is. That engine in the picture is allready gone, have a 2.4 bridgeport thats going on for part of the new season, after that I got a shorty 2.5 screamer I'm working on. The bottom of this thing is a F-1 or similar to the STV. It is a Hurricane 17ft. runoff of 5, this is the first one ever made, It's built to go over 135 mph. Don't think I'll see those #'s this year, maybe next. Scream and Fly's STV insn't the only four seater boat that can see those #'s. If anybody is serious, the molds are still in prestine shape, hey, everything just takes money! When you have five tunnel boats, it get pretty rough with time for each one.

[150aintenuff]

I thought the engine in the pic was a 200 but then I did a double take with the graphics on it... couldnt remember a 200 having that style so thought the 300s might but should have gon with my gut... good looking hull...

[sho305]

The subs, I think most of that stuff is to look cool or get you to spend more money. If you want cool looking speakers that is fine, and if you are in a competition that is a different story as well. But, I put tons of pyramids and the like in cars and they thumped as loud as I wanted them to for driving duty. They wear out after a few years, but they worked great. I liked to use 4 10"s on a 300watt amp, that worked the best. Had to show them to people all the time as they didn't think there was only $20 subs in there...lol. Setup is key though, and sometimes I was using radioshack house tweeters and wierd stuff like that, or had to resize/retune my sub box 5 times to get it right. Some amps like x type subs, while another does not...some cars this tweeter was great and not in another. You had to have a clean head and crossovers before you could do a thing though. I think I am going to pick up a 10" tube mounted and see how it works. I have an 8" that I took apart and fiddled with that works pretty good. The tubes are much lighter, perfect for a boat if I can get reasonable sound out of one. I don't even like a box in my car anymore, too heavy.

[bigbore]

boat batteries will handle a descent amount of power for a descent amount of time(you will end up recharging frequently)but thats not really a huge price to pay.like i said before the way to do it is 2 batteries and a pergo or whatever switch so you can ISOLATE the boat battery from the stereo battery,that way your boat battery stays charged all the time and with that one charged you can start your engine no matter what shape the stereo battery is in and switch to both on the switch and charge your stereo battery while running.it may not chrge it all the way like i said you will end up charging the stereo battery frequently with a charger but you will never be left dead in the water.now im not talking about a 1200 watt rms amp but i wouldnt be afraid to go with a 600 rms amp and with that rms rating that would be all a guy needs for 2 subs let alone one,and it would also obviously have the juice left to run the head unit (cd player)or also a cd changer.

[sho305]

I had cars where I left the deck on the stock wires and ran the amps off of remote batteries, normally the car battery never went dead before the others...but test for sure. I ran a relay off the fuse box that was only on with the engine, through to the other battery(charge when running). With two amp batteries I used a switch; was afraid they might draw too much when the relay tripped on startup and be too hard on the alternator.

If you have the room a free air sub could work nice at medium power levels. Then you have no heavy box or labor for it, just a round hole and a few screws. They can make great thunder at 300w.

[pyro]

Sho, I hate to step on your tail here, but...

Cheap 10"and 12" paper subs are pretty much obsolete now. Power is cheaply available now, and newer speaker technology offers better response and control. Free-air subs are also obsolete in my opinion. They require much more than a round hole to work properly. They need a RIGID baffle which needs to be very large, or needs to "separate" and isolate the front side entirely from the back to eliminate phase cancellation and the resulting low-frequency cut-off. The only place in a car that "almost" allows this mounting would be the rear deck board in a hatchback, which is typically made out of cardboard or other thin pressbourd, NOT a rigid surface. There was a guy I went to school with who had a 15" in his Escort like this, and it sounded like crap and everybody cracked jokes about it. The only place in a boat with a large free-air baffle.... well, there isn't really such a place in a boat.

Modern subs and amps produce, and handle, much more power than before. This makes up for the inefficiency of small, sealed boxes. 50 watt free-air pyramid subs and Kraco dash-mounted boosters are useless crap in this day and age. The speakers bottom-out and distort on every kick of the bass drum, evan at lower volumes. They have peaky, muddy response, miserably short excursion, and hardly any damping ability to speak of.

Mentioning this stuff is like bringing a rusty Chevy S-10 to a monster truck show. Just the mention of "booster", "Pyramid", or "free-air" brings tears of laughter to my eyes. It's not 1975 anymore. Sorry for coming off like a smart-ass...

[sho305]

Well I too thought we were talking about something that didn't kill your battery in a few minutes. Sure anyone can stuff 1000 watts in there, so? Your technical comments are mostly correct Pyro, but I have used the stuff including the junk and got it to work just fine. Man you are just trashing me. You can use $500 amps all you want! I have nothing at all against that. I have worked with this stuff and all I am saying is you can get great results at moderate power this way. I would not buy that high power stuff for my car to listen to loud in the car, because I can get it to blur my vision with this stuff. I'm not in a contest or a TV show.

I said free air if you had the room, meaning had a place it would work in. Most of the boat stereos I worked on were in 24' or larger I/Os, and they had places for them. No box means way less room is taken up by the subs, in fact even those larger boats didn't have room for a box...so free airs were ideal. One could mount them under the back seat and then still put stuff in there for storage if you needed. Often it was that or no sub, what would you have? We made side panels and put them there also. To get some thunder you have to use 10s minimum, and that is a big box or small box that sounds like crap...and requires lots more power and electronics (& money) to perform right. Better to spend the cash on go fast motor parts...but there is nothing wrong with using that stuff if you want, or want mega power no matter.

Rear deck is the best place. Sure, the last one I had I cut all the metal out of it to make room for 10s...and put my own plywood panel in there. The metal has holes in it and rattles too; and the cardboard is the last thing you put a sub into. If you did you would see the sub, as well as have the sun trash it. I also cut the rear seat out some to fit tens there, with another mounting panel. It worked great. You need heavy cones like coated paper/etc and large magnets for damping to do free air. Light cones don't work that well. Those MDF boxes don't tend to like water either if you have one in a boat. You will have a very hard time taking the same ~300 amp and same size subs in any box, and making them work better than the rear deck. Been there, done that. You might as well take your home system subs and put them out in your garage to see how they sound in the house. Maybe you can, and then I guess you are much smarter than me. Unfortunately most cars don't have rear decks anymore, so they ride around tail-heavy from a big space wasting box in the trunk anyway.

Escort hach? Come on, that is a luggage cover not a rear deck. A rear deck is part of the car and is not movable.

I don't know what pyramid subs you had, but mine worked great. I never had a power related failure with many 100-300 watt amps on them. A friend of mine blew the first pair with a 500 watt amp (running 4 or 6 of them free air). The foam would die in the end with mine, though I didn't distort them and try to blow them either. At one time I could get them through a distributor for < $15 each and back then they sold for $40 usually. I doubt they are much different from many sold today. And if you have your ported box tuned right the speaker should not move that much, though the free air sure will. The subs I have right now are Rockford fostgates, and I don't think they are much better. They sure look nicer though.

Yes, I also used boosters for high side amps. They worked good in the proper application of a lower power system and were low buck or free. No, they don't run subs. They are better than deck power if you don't have an amp yet. People don't bother to steal them also. They are nice for small cars/trucks where you set them and stuff them behind something. I got amps, so no I would not be using one today.

In the end the small box is defeating your purpose in tuning the enclosure to resonate where you want, and make it efficient in that frequency range. It is like putting a supercharger on a car with a 1" tailpipe. It will work, just not that well. A small box in all but the most perfect conditions will give you a huge rolloff on the bottom, and even with crossovers and eqs it is difficult to rectifiy that. If you go to 500 watt amps, sure you will need expensive subs without a doubt. You will need more heavy batteries in your boat too as well as heavy boxes that take up space. The small box sure will handle more power, I just never had a vehicle I needed that much in. Ones I did for others were a pita to tune, though that is when you found out things like what crossovers were good. All depends on what you want to spend on it, the room you have, and how much thunder you need. Oh, and how much battery is around to use.