V4 JonnyRudes guys...

[LakeRacer99]

Hey guys, I have heard of a few guys running these motors on 20ft Allisons and getting 80mph out of them. Is it possible?
Are these motors economical to operate? I was thinking of a family ski boat that would run well.
Can you run a V6 case under a V4? Does taylor make a short mid for the V4 and a sporty?
Just thinking outside the box today...Thanks,

[ROLF]

Never seen 80 mph in my XR 2002 with a v4 but it does fly with a bone stock 115 Faststrike 71 mph and tickles 60 with a modded 3 cylinder.I just ran it with a 140 crossflow but still break-in while trying out props.It is a GREAT ski/barefoot boat and carves turns unusually well.


Rolf

[Scream And Fly]

Darris Allison told me he had a 115 Evinrude on his comp SS2000 and it ran over 80.

Greg

[Laker]

Yep it can be done with a strong Xflow V4.
To make prop selection easyer a V6 propshaft needs to be installed in a V4 case. Taylor Makes a Short shaft for the V6 and can be adapted to a V4.

[David]

January 99 Trailer Boats
Allison SS2000
80+ w/115 Rude
no exact speed or rpm listed
prop described as 'larger (30 inch pitch) race style'
76.2 w/26 Trophy @ 6350 running solo
70-73 with 2 people

Thanks to Ted Biglow who mailed a copy of the article to me a year ago when I was thinking about buying an Allison.

has anyone seen Ted recently?

why would you want the extra drag of a V6 case under a V4?

[chynewalkr]

the v6 cases have more clearance for bigger dia props. 14" is about all you can get under a v4 at least the old crossflows. my fathers 60degree 115 faststrike looks to have much more clearance, though i havent measured

[Ron V]

I had a 90 hp crossflow on my Rapid Craft and it was great on gas, probably because of the dinky ports in the 90 hp motors. It used about 5 gph overall. The newer ones are also better than the older ones.

80 mph on a 20' Allison, I would have to see to believe. You'd have to have it built well because even the almighty 140's were not truly 140 hp by today's standards. It would be a fun rig though.

[Laker]

Im talking about installing a V6 propshaft in a V4 case. Not a V6 case on a V4.
That combo Lets us install V6 wheels on a V4 and Yes about 14 inches Diameter is all we can run but believe me... Its cheaper and easier.
80 on the right day with the right motor and the right tune is possible.
Getting their is a much different story. HUGE Amounts of fun!! :cool:

[BLUElixir]

Are there people that cut and respline the v-4 shafts if you were to use a Taylor 15" midsection? Was there ever a stock OMC 15" midsection for the V-4s? I'm still learning.... Thanks!

[ROLF]

The mid on my 1957 v4 50 is short I did not measure it but appears to be about 15'' it has a clamp on bracket and no trim/tilt.

Rolf

[MattGreen]

No, there was never a "short" fishing looper or 'modern' version crossflow OMC V4 - all were 20" or longer. The SST-100 (V4 loop race motor) had a 14.5" transom height, but that's a different story entirely.

You can swing slightly more than 14", but I've had props clear when at rest and had gouges in my trim tab afterwards. Stick with 14" and you're fine. Laker is right on the V6 wheel business. I've spent a fortune rehubbing and reworking V6 wheels to fit a V4 case. Best bet is actually to leave the case alone and look for wheels already setup for V4s. They are more plentiful than you might think. It all depends how committed you are to the V4 deal.

Matt

[ROLF]

RE: No
I will measure the mid tonight even though its about -2 in the barn.


It looks much shorter than the four 20" motors that it is sitting next too.




Rolf

[oldschoolltv]

I just put my v-6 gearcase with low water pick-up and 1.86 gears with a 29 srx on gps first time out I got 77.1 gps, I am going to try my 27 because the rpms are a tad low, and I need to go up with the motor some more with my hyd jack all the way up it still had great pressure, all that is done is good intakes, bored it to 2.0, 145lbs compression, no air box and re-jetted, I had higher comp heads on it with 2.14 lower unit and was getting 2mphs more than heads that are on it now but gas was too expensive for long river runs, I also have a small case 2:1 with v6 shaft I am going to try but it doesnt have lwp. these motors are impressive, boat is light weight ltv. Matt

[ROLF]

Just walked back from the barn with a yardstick,factory stock OMC V4
fishing motor,15" 50hp motor.


Rolf

[Laker]

Matt is correct and was refering to anything latermodel.. 1973 and newer.
The pre 1967 or 68 stuff was made in short shafts for sure. They were a totally different animal. :)

[Laker]

V Racer
Where can those intakes be aquired?

[SteveO]

Laker,
Here's some trivia for you -- The late model V4 cases measure 8" from shaft center to cav plate, where the earlier stuff is about 7.125"

[Laker]

Steve
What gears are in you motor?
The 2001 Brochure that lists a 135 having .44 gears.
Is it the small diameter case?
the motor in the pictures of the 2001 Brochure has a V6 style case...
Perhaps Racer can shed some light on the subject of what was really built then.. Like a was the 135 actually made? Brochure even lists the 135 as making 130hp....

[ROLF]

Laker, not to get into a pissing match especially with fellow OMC
enthusiasts but if you carefully read Bluelixir specific question and Matts
specific answer you will see that Matts stated answer is incorrect,and my
walk out into the freezing barn was not in viegn.


Rolf,petty perhaps but CORRECT with the OMC trivia/info

[SteveO]

135 is a 130hp, with a 0.44 V6 case.

Runs much faster with a used 0.5 V4 case I got from J.Rude.
This case swap was the biggest performance gain I've seen (so far).
But this case got tired and took out a nice DAH chopper on it's way out.

Racer sold me a Late V4 case. Late V4 case is deeper from cav to bullet (engine height is wrong now) and stock water pickup is pretty good.. 0.5 gears on the late case.

I re-read the post above and see where it might be confusing. When I say V4 case, I mean small diameter bullet. When I say V6 case I mean large dia (slow) bullet with V4 guts and 13 spline shaft.

[Laker]

Rolf
I see where you are at. Its all good!
Most of us forget or like to not remember the early V4 of the 50s and 60s :D

Steve
Thanks for the update!
Talk soon!
Chris

[JWTjr.]

I conducted that test and wrote the story for Trailer Boats in late 1998. That boat was Darris' test mule and it was not light (830 lbs.). We tested it with a 260 short shaft (that's what he had on it) and it ran well over 100 (I think 106 with a 28" ET, 101 with a Trophy 26") but Darris wanted to test it with the V4 for Trailer Boats. With the Ficht 115 V4 it ran 76.2 with me aboard and a 26" Laser II propeller and stock gearcase. For fun, we put a Bob's noseconed case on it and jacked it up with a 30" ET prop and it ran 81. With two aboard it ran 72 with the Laser II and 78 with the ET. With those props it didn't have a lot of low end but it was acceptable.

JWTjr.

[ROLF]

John,what kind of numbers do you think your V21 Triad would get with
that v4/prop combination?

Thanks Rolf

[delawarerick]

What year was the ficht? Just curious as to the model. Thanks Rick

[msethsmile]

Lake Racer,

Yes, it can be done. I am limited on omc knowledge. My ss2000 ran 83 on the gps with a 115 Johnson (60 degree) fastrike time after time. The motor was noseconed, that's it. As I understand, a crossflow or looper slightly modified would blow this motor away. I ran a v4 115 yamaha too at 82. The big drawback of the fastrike was the lower unit--dinky propshaft. If you have doubts, call some of your friends (Kerry, Roger) in MO that saw 83 firsthand. Boat was an excel (full weight) with a 30 small ear and stock 2:1 gears. I think the recommended wot on a fastrike was 6000, I turned it 6200 as I recall, do the math. I was way, way back (15?) and around splitshaft. That boat would really tick off big block guys. Highlight off that summer--went right between two brand new wot bb (454 and 502) 21 foot baja's. They actually followed me into the marina to find out what happened. The whole time I had one hand on the wheel and the other pointed at the motor. A little too cocky but hey, it's a 115. If you're inclined, go with a looper or a yami for better hp and stronger lower unit. Find a ss2000 comp and build a 160 hp v4 and go 85, 90?
Severe gas mileage, 83 / 11.5 gph= 7.2 mpg @ wot!

[LakeRacer99]

Hey guys...Great feedback.
This is something I was thinking about. Looks like the possiblities are grand.
I was thinking for overall performance it was a win. I like the v4 and they seem to be plentiful around here.

Hey Mark...Roger did tell me about your Allison running that good. I was using yours as the closed thing to valid as your stuff always seems to run the numbers. Didn't you run a ProMax 150 quite a bit as well?
By the way...I don't think of you as the cocky type...

Thanks guys, post some pics if ya got them. I really want to see a OMC V4 on a Taylor short mid...

Jason

[David]

Sorry John Tiger, I knew you wrote that test and I should have noted that when I posted the results. Thanks for adding the prop info. It was a big part of my decision to buy my SS2000. That article convinced me that I would get a seat of the pants speed increase with the SS2000 over my Virage with the same motor.

Driving is the hard part. Msethsmile reports driving at 80 with one hand. I wish I could do that. It will come. I'm a lot faster than when I first got in the boat.

[chynewalkr]

all this v4 talk is great! I cant wait till spring.

Does anyone have any pictures of the taylor mid or any shortys? its something I ve wanted to do, but i dont want to get in over my head, after all my boat is just for play not race.

[MattGreen]

I've gone back and clarified my post. If you read the preceding posts, everybody was implicitly talking about later-model (i.e mid 70's and onwards) crossflows and loopers, hence the propshaft swapping discussion, V4 vs V6 gearcases, feasability of use on an Allison, etc. You can't realistically tell me you were envisioning all this with an old 'fat 50' in your head.

In any event, we're both correct: there were 15" fishing motors back in the gas-hog days, but the common performance platforms we usually discuss here (mid 70's and later crossflows, and 60 and 90 degree loopers) were not available from the factory with a 15" mid.

Matt

[ROLF]

Matt,I was just grumpy about stumblig around at night in the freezing barn with with a yardstick. No offense.


Regards Rolf

[Matt Gent]

Which motor would you want to start with? I'm a little leary of an old OMC in terms of replacement parts long-term. Which versions make the most power?

We've got an old Vandal in need of restoration. We've run it with an old I6 150 merc, and until the transom broke with an early 90s v4 90hp. It would run in the high-50s with both.

Once the boat is fixed we'd like to go a lot faster. I don't think I'd feel safe in that boat over about 90mph (its pretty small, and prone to chine-walk). Our first thought was a 150-175 merc v6, either a 2.0 or 2.5, which would get us there, and have plenty of room for mods in case it didn't.

Another v4 OMC is an interesting idea though, especially if one can be built to make 150-160hp and push our boat beyond 80mph.

Which powerhead makes the most power (year, hp)?
Which lower can be used, and which v6 shafts can be converted?
Do any of the reputable shops regularly work on the v4?

If we need to modify the engine, it makes more sense just to start with the v6. But the added weight on this boat isn't ideal (+100lbs?), and it would be more unique with a v4 to run over 80.

[Holeshot Marine]

Hey Fella's

I put a 60 degree V6 on a wayne's mid and worked great. I'll try and find a pic of it later, but it is a real trick looking little motor. I'm guessing a v4 60 degree would be the sick! My little motor looked way short compared to a V6 3 liter (about 6" or more shorter) on that mid, imagine taking another + or -4" more off that! And has a sweet sound to boot. BTW I wouldn't count out a v4 60 degree over a cross flow, either monty or evolution had some turning some serious numbers (can't remember who). In general that Intruder will run way better and way better gas mileage too.

Later,

Joey

[BLUElixir]

Joey, That short mid sounds like it would be awesome! I'd love to see pictures if you have any.

Do any of you guys know anywhere that I can learn the history of the OMC V-4s? I'm thinking about a 140 for my Allison and I need to learn these motors and what to look for.

[chynewalkr]

matt, i too have a vandal.

i run a 115 crossflow i converted to a 140. it runs hard up to 65mph gps with 2 peaple in the boat. If i were to rerig this boat Id probably want a newer 60degree v4 with a 16" mid section too to keep the center of gravity down.
the newer v4 loopers have way more bottom end than my old crossflow ever has (this has been verified by the seat of my pants :D ).

i know the vandal floats and handles good with a v6 but they are still a tad heavy for me and i think the boat would be better balanced with a v4)
my other motor choice would be a 2 liter merc v6 on a 15" mid.

[Dukeofchippewa]

I don't know if this means anything but the guy that I bought the Vector from was running 93 with a V4.

[delawarerick]

If you want to build a crossflow a late 80s 110 is a good start. Its basicallly the old 140s. If you can find a late 80s early90s 140 looper you can build a beast. We built an 87 or 88 140 looper and it pushed a 17 br searay past 70. I think the v-4 looper 140 is all of v-6 150 if not more. I will retire my v-4 and have a tricked out L6 I dont think it will be the v-4 :eek: but its been built by the best and will report results. Rick

[msethsmile]

LR99--
pics of the past

[msethsmile]

LR99--
merc was offering (thru dealers) new 150 pm shorties for $7000 and I went with that. SS2000 ran 97 with nothing but a 2.4 tuner added.

Meanwhile, the business end of the mighty 115! w/ 30 inch wheel

[DonChicho]

Hi, Nice Rig !!!. What Prop Are You Using ??

Don

[SteveO]

Don,
What kind of performance with your 140 / XR-2002?

[Steve Reist]

Msethsmile, Where about in Iowa do you run. I'd like to see that rig fly.
Thanks, Steve

[DonChicho]

ACTUALLY, I'M USING ON MY COMBO (XR-2002 / looper 140 H.P.) a PERFORMANCE PROP 13 3/4X24 DRAG 3 AT 7,200 RPM . and have a
SRX 23" mod to 25" (POLISHED AND THINNED) BY TIM HACKNEY IN THE BOX(not tested,yet!!).

I'M THINKING TO BUY A DAH ONE IN 27" OR 28"
DOES SOMEBODY KNOW THE WEB OF DAH ???


REGARDS,
DON

[Laker]

Done!
http://www.dahpropellers.com/

[msethsmile]

DonChicho--that's a 30 small ear (inline) chopper.
SReist--still have the boat, the motor along with a GT20 got torched in a garage fire. Those pics are 5 years old. I boated at Buffalo (and down to Musc) years back, great slough (slew?)--let it fly. Grew up boating down river @ New Boston. I'm in central IA and get to the river a couple times a summer, Cassville Rally, Princeton, Prairie du Chien, or Kay Island (Moline).

[Laker]

Joey, That short mid sounds like it would be awesome! I'd love to see pictures if you have any.

Do any of you guys know anywhere that I can learn the history of the OMC V-4s? I'm thinking about a 140 for my Allison and I need to learn these motors and what to look for.



A little CrossFlow V4 history.
Im Going from memory here.
Starting with the 1973 135hp V4, basically the first motor to offer performance using things learned from the racing programs KC and KR engines.
The 73 135 is a unique year using different internal engine parts than the later motors but stock performance is about the same as the other years. Hottest head on a production V4
The 1974-76 135hp changed the internal engine parts to be very similar to the later model engines. Slightly Looser heads than the 73.
1977 was the first year of the 140. Better gear case design all though still hydroMech shifting. Internal rams on the Trim and tilt, Different exhaust tuning. Slightly looser heads again, some had coil mounts but the ones I have seen were not tapped.
1978-79 140s are thought to be the strongest of the 140 in stock form because they had 1 3/8 carbs stock. The exhaust system changed again to what was used for the rest of the V4 Xflows built. Heads are the same as the 77 140 with coil mounts.
1980-84 140s were back to the 1 5/16 carbs, some had intake stuffers, some didn’t. Heads were slightly looser again from the 78-79 heads but great for pump fuel and easy to find.
In 1985 all OMC Engines were changed to the prop shaft rating. The 140s became 110hp. Along with power head to prop shaft ratings the heads went very soft. Known as the Bathtub heads.
I believe in 1990 the 110 became a 115 along with the SLP models being a 112. Built until at least 1998.
Basically the same as the 1980-84 140s with soft heads and no intake stuffers.
Any questions let me know.
Laker
:cool:

[Matt Gent]

What about the later model 130hp? Like this one...

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56199&highlight=130+johnson

If the 140 became a 110@prop, does this engine have 20 more hp?
What size carbs?
Compression level?
Any idea what this motor really makes at the shaft (ie has anyone dyno'd one)?

[Laker]

Matt
In 1985 the Lopper V4 was introduced as a 120-140. They were 110CID or 1.8liters. In 1988 the looper V4s became 2.0 liters. They remained that way until the end in 2001. The Cross Flow V4s are 1.6L or 100 CID.
Yes Looper V4s and Cross Flow V4 were built at the same time.
Their is also the Eagle V4, They came about in the mid 90s and are cousins of the V6 eagle motors. Huge torque motors. I saw a late 90s 115 fast strike make 128hp on a dyno. Great engines!

[fast120]

i have drag raced with a v4 2.0L on a mirage cheeta with a 2-1 gear v4 case with a 26p yamaha drag and turn around 9000 rpm's and run in upper 90's in 1/4 mile and hold up very well


ryan

[oldschoolltv]

I just ran mine last sunday with my v-6 gearcase 1:86 gears lwp with 9psi water pressure 29srx on a light ltv and got 81.3 gps, I still have 2 props to try and my tight heads I am just 1mph slower than my 150 ficht with the same prop and setup. I am having fun with this motor and hope to get it to 85 by end of summer. Matt

p.s. i could go a tad leaner but I dont have pyros so I am on the safe side.