Any home heating gurus out here?

[stvhelm]

I need some advice on what oil burners and hot water heaters are good and what to stay away from. Some how I get the feeling these people just want to sell you whatever they can make the most money on. Also I was wondering if its better to have one unit that does both or keep them seperate? And gas is not an option.
Thanks

edit: old thread read down

[thumper]

Does 20+ yrs HVAC qualify?

Need more info, a phone call is in order.
Need to know if you're looking to upgrade, broke down and desperate, tired equipment working but ready to die etc..

Need application, what you plan on, budget, house size, kids, yes, no.

In a 20 min conversation I can give you the knowlege to give a salesman fits cause you'll be informed :) (Salesman's worst nightmare)

[mragu]

helmut, after 22 years in the heating business my 2$ based on gas not being an option. for a steam or hot water system I would recomend a burnham boiler. for a water heater i would say a bock. if you have a hot water system instead of a water heater i would say to use a super store indirect fired water heater. the size would depend on the amount of baths, people living in house. if you want me to size for you give me a call. as far as burner to use i would suggest a beckett burner mike 516-351-4285

[stvhelm]

basically its an average size 4 bedroom house with hot water base board heat with 2 zones. just 2 bathrooms. my stuff is just tired. the hot water heater is on its last legs. the insulation appears burnt. I figure before I change it I thought I would see about 1 unit for both.

[stokernick]

WHY NOT convert to LP Gas,it`s cheaper and cleaner,if you can`t get natural gas??

[Balzy]

Call thumper, he can help ya.

[thumper]

Balzy don't know what he's talking about, ooops, wrong thread :)

Helmut, the LP question is a good one and part of the reason for the phone call, there are a lot of new twists on the same old thing that can save aLOT of money in the long run in the right application.

Also would be easier because there's always going to be other questions raised as the original questions are answered........

[Tripps]

I could probally use one of my overheated from seaweed mercs to heat my house :eek: :eek: :eek: ,but really i would like to know if i could get a propane-LP burner to replace my beckett head on my burnham boiler ?? some of the lp dealers around here don't know!! I hooked up a propane heater for my pool and it was great,but sucked more propane than beer i drink on a very hot summer day on the GSB!!! tripps

[thumper]

Not economically, it can be done but liability issues surface as it would have to be installed from off the shelf items and it won't have a UL or AGA certification which makes the installer also the engineer and designer and liable for any troubles forever. i.e. if it burns your house down, he now owns it and will pay pre fire value for the smoking heap.......

By the way, oil is more efficient than natural or LP in total cost per BTU delivered into the house, why would you want to change?????

[stvhelm]

back to my question... Is it more efficient to use a seperate oil burner and water heater or have 1 unit for heat and hot water

[Trikki1010]

Happy New Year Helmut,

Assuming you have Baseboard Hot Water (BBHW) and not forced air (which sucks except it makes it real easy for HVAC)

If you run seperates, you can shut down the furnace during warmer months and let the Hot Water Heater (HWH) run all the time. This way if either has a problem, you'll still have the other and you'll save alot of unecessary wear and tear on the furnace, which would otherwise have to run to circulate water in a tank on a loop from the furnace. It also save a couple sheckles in not running the BIG furnace. That leaves gas or electric for the HWH

If you are going for the all in one, better recovery time for the HWH, just a little more to run and maintain.

We install Amtrol Tank w/ the insulation package in the all in one set-ups. They are common here. Look for low heat loss and rate of rise. When you compare, you'll see which ones add up locally

[stvhelm]

well :o Its that time again. After 1 more child and another bedroom and bathroom added I havent done anything yet with the boiler. So now after getting hosed for $700 for 240gallons of oil :mad: Im changing it. Im looking at a peerless 3 section water boiler with a riello burner and a storage tank on the side. good choice or no?

[HiLift]

Yours works out to $2.91/gallon Helmut.
$3.25/gallon here!! (85.9 cents/liter)
Then we're taxed on top of that!!!

[Hydrophobic guy]

well :o Its that time again. After 1 more child and another bedroom and bathroom added I havent done anything yet with the boiler. So now after getting hosed for $700 for 240gallons of oil :mad: Im changing it. Im looking at a peerless 3 section water boiler with a riello burner and a storage tank on the side. good choice or no?

Ok the gas guy will step in now.
Was in the oil biz then did natural gas, then oil and propane. Now I build huge propane plants. Use to sell Peerless with Riello's its a good combo with a good warranty. Unless your looking for exotic high efficiency stuff of the low mass water type it will be good. Peerless also are assembled with push nipples a better set up than many with gaskets between the sections. What kind of storage tank is it, an indirect basically set up as its own zone? BTW even if you could get propane, fuel oil has 41k more btu's per gallon and as for efficiency you might be able to get 5-6 % more efficient units with gas but the fuel cost difference will never out weigh it. Also they do make aproved listed propane conversion burners they even make dual fuel burners but they are not efficient. The natural gas companies love to install those usually for free cause their pigs.

[SnakeBit]

Weil - Mclean- the best end of story!!!!!!:) :) :) :) :)

[Hydrophobic guy]

Weil - Mclean- the best end of story!!!!!!:) :) :) :) :)

Weil McLain?
Guess you haven't torn dozens of them apart and had to repair them when the gaskets start to leak.

[SnakeBit]

Weil McLain?
Guess you haven't torn dozens of them apart and had to repair them when the gaskets start to leak.
When did you tear them down or do the reairs. I have two, The only thing I have done is have the relays changed.
Anthony
Ps Check consumer reports;)

[stvhelm]

Ok the gas guy will step in now.
Was in the oil biz then did natural gas, then oil and propane. Now I build huge propane plants. Use to sell Peerless with Riello's its a good combo with a good warranty. Unless your looking for exotic high efficiency stuff of the low mass water type it will be good. Peerless also are assembled with push nipples a better set up than many with gaskets between the sections. What kind of storage tank is it, an indirect basically set up as its own zone? BTW even if you could get propane, fuel oil has 41k more btu's per gallon and as for efficiency you might be able to get 5-6 % more efficient units with gas but the fuel cost difference will never out weigh it. Also they do make aproved listed propane conversion burners they even make dual fuel burners but they are not efficient. The natural gas companies love to install those usually for free cause their pigs.

I was going to go with the peerless partner. Its a indirect fired water heater with a stainless tank and use a third zone.


Anthony /Snake.. What makes a McLain better???

[Hydrophobic guy]

When did you tear them down or do the reairs. I have two, The only thing I have done is have the relays changed.
Anthony
Ps Check consumer reports;)

Yours are 23-31 years old?
If so those are a different animal than the newer ones.
Most of the issues I've had with McLains are from the mid 90's on.
Was a dealer and got so pissed off went to Peerless plus, Peerless was cheaper.
BTW, Helmut if your old boiler had an internal coil your gonna love the water output of the indirect tank system.

[stvhelm]

my old water heater is a 20yr old 30 gal oil fired unit. I never had a hot water problem even with 2 showers going the same time. i hope this system works as good.

[stokernick]

have you looked at tankless hot water heaters?

[Hydrophobic guy]

my old water heater is a 20yr old 30 gal oil fired unit. I never had a hot water problem even with 2 showers going the same time. i hope this system works as good.

Yup, will do same same plus less burners to repair, maintain and clean.

[Quinten]

I've been told that the tankless technology has not advanced enough to make them reliable and dependable. This came from Hughes Supply, now HD Supply. I would be interested in a tankless if any one has a good report. Sorry I don't have any help for you Helmut, you know, Florida and all (boiler?) good luck on whatever system you choose.

[stvhelm]

have you looked at tankless hot water heaters?

i dont think they make those for oil:confused:

[Hydrophobic guy]

I've been told that the tankless technology has not advanced enough to make them reliable and dependable. This came from Hughes Supply, now HD Supply. I would be interested in a tankless if any one has a good report. Sorry I don't have any help for you Helmut, you know, Florida and all (boiler?) good luck on whatever system you choose.

With the newer low water capacity boilers an internal tankless just typically doesn't have anough gpm. You usually run out of water if you have multiple draws. Plus they over years build up deposits and become less effective. Their are external flat plate coils but for residential use they are usually far to expensive and you need to use a water storage tank with them also. The best set up for a good affordable install is what your doing, a cast iron wet base boiler with an indirest water heater.

[theoldwizard]

I've been told that the tankless technology has not advanced enough to make them reliable and dependable.
I don't buy that. They have been using them for a long time in Europe.

My buddy put in a whole house tankless, gas fired, water heater a couple of years ago. The cost was very high compared to a traditional heater. He originally figured it would be a bout an 8-10 year payback, but that was before the cost of gas went through the roof. Now it is more than like a 5 year payback and he is in year 3 !

If it was me, I would have looked hard at a couple of electric tankless water heaters. One for the kitchen and one for the bath. You could probably run the laundry off either one as long as you didn't hot water at both locations at the same time.

[Hydrophobic guy]

I don't buy that. They have been using them for a long time in Europe.

My buddy put in a whole house tankless, gas fired, water heater a couple of years ago. The cost was very high compared to a traditional heater. He originally figured it would be a bout an 8-10 year payback, but that was before the cost of gas went through the roof. Now it is more than like a 5 year payback and he is in year 3 !

If it was me, I would have looked hard at a couple of electric tankless water heaters. One for the kitchen and one for the bath. You could probably run the laundry off either one as long as you didn't hot water at both locations at the same time.

Thats a different animal, its gas such as a the Rinnai brand. They don't make that style of tankless in oil. Yes, those are the most efficient but he has oil so it wasn't an option.

[stvhelm]

I think that would be a wiring/plumbling nightmare. too many heaters:eek: 3 bathrooms, 1 laundry, 1 kitchen with a dw.

basically i just wanted to know if my choice of equipment is good or if there is something better for the money.
thanks everyone

[theoldwizard]

Thats a different animal, its gas such as a the Rinnai brand. They don't make that style of tankless in oil. Yes, those are the most efficient but he has oil so it (gas) wasn't an option.
Which is why I said
I would have looked hard at a couple of electric tankless water heaters

[Hydrophobic guy]

Which is why I said

I don't know what electricity costs where you are but it is rediculous here.
Also you have to deal with cost of units, wiring, re-plumbing at point of usage etc...

[Quinten]

I don't buy that. They have been using them for a long time in Europe.

My buddy put in a whole house tankless, gas fired, water heater a couple of years ago. The cost was very high compared to a traditional heater. He originally figured it would be a bout an 8-10 year payback, but that was before the cost of gas went through the roof. Now it is more than like a 5 year payback and he is in year 3 !

If it was me, I would have looked hard at a couple of electric tankless water heaters. One for the kitchen and one for the bath. You could probably run the laundry off either one as long as you didn't hot water at both locations at the same time.


I was referring to the electric, in Florida, or at least in my city, gas is not widely available. I only know of one pereson who actually installed one. Two months later it failed and was replaced with a conventional electric hot water heater.:)

[Hydrophobic guy]

Florida is a bit different.
We are up north where it gets azz puckering cold and electricity is a total rip off. Plus nearly all heating equipment is in the basement in central units. Making those small electric instantaneous type heaters that are close to source of use a pain to retrofit. BTW Florida is a huge propane state.
Your friend should have got a Rinnai.

[Quinten]

Florida is a bit different.
We are up north where it gets azz puckering cold and electricity is a total rip off. Plus nearly all heating equipment is in the basement in central units. Making those small electric instantaneous type heaters that are close to source of use a pain to retrofit. BTW Florida is a huge propane state.
Your friend should have got a Rinnai.

I'm sorry for replying to this post, I obviously don't have any comments worthy or intelligent enough to post.

[sho305]

Nobody recommends a heat pump? That is the only way to heat with electric. Here I am around $.105 for electric including all the tax/charges. Initial heat pump cost is higher, though you get it back if you stay or it will increase value of house some. I have water and love it, going to put in central for air but keep the gas boiler for now. They sell a lot of heat pumps here that are the air type like a big AC unit, not the geothermal (ground source). A guy that does them told me they were around $2K cost (just the unit, for him) and an AC is just < $1K. I have a free older AC unit to use, but this heat pump you can mostly just swap in for a central AC unit anyway.

They will work down to freezing before your furnace comes on, here we get a lot of that weather so maybe why many are putting those in (and make a nice AC unit). The geothermal of course is much more cost to drill wells or bury lines all over the yard, especially in existing houses not to mention you can't stuff it in your mortgage like a new home. Some electric co's will give you a break on electric for heat pumps too. I'm thinking of getting a heat pump, I'd like to run one into my water system but I have not studied up on that yet for cost/type you need/etc., might settle for the air type and just run the water at night...then I can run the central days with humidifier/air filter/dust catcher (nice to have) on the heat pump or 90+% furnace.

My boiler is around 15yr old or more. I checked chimney temp and got ~250F when it burns so I put one of those heat reclaimers for a wood stove on it (the gas version). It works great, heats the basement and cut my usage. I looked at a new furnace that was LP and can hold my hand on the exhaust pipe no problem, it is much better. I even dialed the flame down on mine since it is larger than this house needs, but not sure how it affects the efficiency since it runs a hair longer. Also turn the water temp down when above freezing outside like the new controls do, I should buy new controls for it...but it helps it work better. This old one is supposed to be about 70% with the damper that is on it, I wonder how much the heater adds to it. With some other insulating in the house/attic I use much less gas now than when I got here and my windows still suck. Have to do those before the heat pump, they should help a lot and I'm tired of plastic and two sided tape..:rolleyes: .

[stvhelm]

Well I got the peerless and the indirect ss partner and all the do-dads to go with it. next week i'll put my plumbing skills to the test:eek: hope the weather aint too cold or my wife is gonna check in at the hilton:rolleyes:

[Hydrophobic guy]

hope the weather aint too cold or my wife is gonna check in at the hilton:rolleyes:

Peerless used to give away nice coats with their boilers.
Now that you brought it up maybe they were for the wives.:D

[theoldwizard]

Nobody recommends a heat pump? That is the only way to heat with electric. ... Initial heat pump cost is higher, ...
I am amazed that living in GR MI, you can pull enough heat out of the air to stay warm in winter ! Is yours just an "add on" to some other heating source ?

My in-laws have a heat pump in northwest NC and they like it a lot.

Geothermal (ground water) seem like the way to go, but costs :eek: :eek: :eek: !! I'm always amazed that geothermal heat pumps aren't in wide use in FL and AZ. I would expect it would really cut their cooling costs and you don't need those resistance heaters for the chilly mornings (below 70).

Of course, everyone in FL and AZ is over 80 and won't live long enough to see the pay back :p (ducking for cover !)

[hsbob]

if its not too late, why arent you going to gas, is it available???

in seattle gas is $1.09 a therm[100,000 btus], electric is 2.30 and your oil at 2.32. this does not take into account the efficency of the burner. gas boiler should be avaliable at 90%. my father ne efficent oil burner was 85. electry is 100% and with heat pump even better.

if you stay with the oil put a flue gas air exchanger [<$200]on it. that will atleast heat the furnace area with waste heat before it goes out the

[sho305]

We get a lot of over 32F days. Last winter the ground never froze until middle of January, then thawed in April so you had two months of <32F cold really. Lots of 35-55F days to heat there. Maybe burn at night but still it would run a lot here, and all the time in spring/fall plus its high efficiency AC all summer. A lot of it has to do with lake MI, it makes for more snow but warmer temps....or well it just does not drop real low very often like it does in WI. We rarely see 0F or less, maybe a few days a year. No snow here yet, only maybe two weeks of nights where it frosted and we have less than 2mo left in this year. In 50s today. They will work down to 32-27F depending on the install, then they ice up and lose efficiency. But if it is 50F out they really make the heat easily, and yeah they are easy to add onto existing home unlike the geothermal (I like geo too but yes, $$$$!!! Worth it if you can mortgage it though.)

Oil could take a big fall like our economy :rolleyes: since there is only a shortage in Al Gore's mind, but I didn't think they could prop it up this long so who knows. I have oil heat at the lake and its fine, it puts out the heat. I can warm that place from freezing to 70 in about 15-20min. Needless to say I have it set at 48F right now and this weekend I am blowing out the pipes. Sure don't want to burn anymore of it.

[stvhelm]

gas is not available on my street.