what amp and how much power?

[baja200merk]

hey guys
got a 1978 grand prix wit a 301 v8 it has a poinneer system in it but i need more base so i got a box with 2 10s in it, the speakers are facing out with metal over them? dono who makes it but i will be putting 2 6x9s behind the rear seats replacing the 5 inch pioneer speakers which i will be mounting in the kick panels
i want to put the box in the trunk but i dont know what amp to run? any i deas from what i have herd jbl is the best if so how many wats and do i need to run it through the speakers or just the box?

thanks
kevin

[Skatin]

Get the most power that you can afford. JBL amps are not even close to being the best. Amp ratings are misleading. Some brands will rate their amps at 12 volts and some 13.7 and some even higher. The higher the voltage the more power the amp will put out. It is actually worse on a speaker to not have enough power than it is to over power it. The number one cause of speaker failure is distortion which is caused by not having enough power to control the cone. The best amps are US Amps in my opinion. Hand made in America. www.usamps.com They aren't cheap but they win tons of competitions and their power numbers are way under rated. If you want to get an idea of how much power an amp is capable of producing just look at the fuse rating. If they tell you it puts out 1000 watts but it only has a 25 amp fuse than its all crap. 25 amp X 12 volts equals 300 watts. What kind money are you plan on spending?

[GP-1]

For a sub amp???

Well, I'm assuming you have 4-ohm subs.. I'd probably look for a single channel amp, since you can run the two subs in parallel for a 2-ohm load. If you buy a two channel amp, you choices are either 4-ohm (not using all your amp's potential power), or 1-ohm (OK if your amp can stand it, but I'd be careful..).. You could also bridge a four channel amp into two channels..

Anyway, I wouldn't be too concerned about a sub amp.. Hunt around, buy a reputable name and you'll be OK.. I'd say a 200x1 amp would be plenty.. Run it at 2-ohms, and you'll almost double it's rated power. If you not amplifying your mids and highs, anything more than that will just overpower the music -- it'll sound like crap..

Good luck..

[Skatin]

anything more than that will just overpower the music -- it'll sound like crap..

Do you mean that to much power will make it sound like crap?

[JakeC]

I think he means that too much bass will overpower everthing else, and the music itself will sound like crap. If you're pumping the bass up substantially, you need to bring everything else up along with it. With only two tens, though, he shouldn't have to worry about it too much, depending on what brand they are. If you could give us a brand and a model number on the subs, I could make a strong recommendation for a specific amp for you. It really depends on the speakers specs, IMHO.


Jake

[pyro]

Look on Ebay for a PIONEER GM-X900. I have one of these, I purchased many years ago, and it is BULLETPROOF. Ask any electronic engineer, and they will agree. I have driven the hell out of this amp at near peak output for hours on many occasions without failure. 100W X 2, or bridge 300W at 4 ohms. It has a variable low-pass crossover built-in. You will NEED this function to remove the mids and highs from the signal. Pioneer stopped making larger power amps a few years ago, so you'll have to look for a used one. Mine was $400 new, and worth every penny. I drive three 10" subs in a partitioned, sealed enclosure with this amp.

Don't skimp on the wiring. Use 4 gauge power and ground wire, and put a fuse holder near the battery under the hood, or else your car will "become a fuse" in the event of an accidental short :D

[baja200merk]

OK GUYS i pulled the subs out of the box and 1 they are 12s and say 240watts and 480max. i got 2 220wat 6x9s for christmas and i hooked them up to the head unit along with the 2 12s in the trunk and it came out distorted (i shut it of within a second).
my question would be how much power to each and how do i set that power?
i would like the 6x9s to be mount ed in the front but im havin trouble finding room... would it be bad to mount them on top of the back seat? would the bass drown them out?
can i make all the bass run strait to the 12s or will some still run through the 6x9s?

thanks lol!
happy new year
kevin

[baja200merk]

ANY ONE?

ThANKS
KEVIN

[pyro]

The best way to do it is to "high-pass" the door speakers and the 6x9's. This means "take the bass out of them" and let the subs do all the hard work without distorting your mains. But this is not a simple task. Most head units do not have this capability. You usually will need a separate four-channel amplifier with a built-in crossover. This will give you more, cleaner power for loud and clear tone that a head unit cannot provide with its built-in 12 volt amps. This ties in with what I was saying above. This is the key to a great sounding mobile audio system.

The idea is to "low-pass" your subwoofer amp to remove highs and "muddy" mid-bass from the subs, and "high-pass" the mains with the 4-channel amp to remove distorting bass. The "crossover frequency" is the point at which tones above (for low-pass) or below (for high-pass) are eliminated. Usually this setting will be the same for the mains and the subs, or nearly the same. This way, the mains produce only mid-bass, mids and highs while allowing the subs to only produce the lows. You need to experiment with these settings to determine the sweet spot. Too low, and the mains are distorted. Too high, and the subs get "muddy" sounding. You may need to set sub low-pass lower than the mains high-pass to eliminate the muddy tones. I set mine this way so that the subs mostly just provide some reinforcement to the kick drum tones.

For now, your head unit is running your mains, so start with your head unit's EQ "tone" controls set at zero (no plus or minus for bass or treble.) Use a favorite CD or tape for reference. You will probably want to boost the treble setting later.

Your sub amp MUST have a low-pass crossover or the subs will sound like garbage. If you have 6x9's in the rear, you should be able to start with the low-pass setting between 50 and 70 (Hz.) Your main speakers will easily produce all of the frequencies above this range. Depending on what volume level you like to listen to your music at, it may be better to set the subs' low-pass crossover frequency setting lower, and the "level" higher, or vice-versa. Experiment with it.

Don't forget about phase. If the subs (or the amp's inputs) are connected +/- backwards, they will be "fighting" the sound from the mains, producing weak, distorted bass. This is called "out of phase." Try reversing the inputs or the speaker connections. Also, if ONE speaker is connected reversed, it will cancel out the bass from the other sub.

-Chad

[blkmtrfan]

Kevin take a look here:


www.etronics.com (http://www.etronics.com)

Best prices for name brand new stuff on the web

[baja200merk]

a firend of mine has a profile 1200sx 1200 watt for 100 bucks...

i wont be useing all of that 1200 watts ill be babying it... what do you guys think?

[GP-1]

a firend of mine has a profile 1200sx 1200 watt for 100 bucks...

i wont be useing all of that 1200 watts ill be babying it... what do you guys think?

Too many things going on at once here... OK, the "1200 watt" amp.. Is a single channel, or is it 1200 watts when bridged? In your case, you'll probably be OK either way, since your subs have pretty low power requirements.. If it's a mono amp, just run the two subs in parallel... and don't turn the gains up too high -- your amp will "see" a two-ohm load in this configuration, and make more power (probably where the "1200" watts comes from).. If it's a two channel amp, just wire a channel to each sub. In this config., the amp sees a 4-ohm load -- and makes less power -- but it will still be sufficient for your needs. In either case, you'll want to make use of the "low pass" output on the amp. As Pyro noted, this will insure cleaner bass, and a happier sub.

Now, what is your amplification plan for you mids and highs??

[pyro]

Also, running each channel to each sub (usually 4 ohm) will yield cleaner power (less distortion.)

[baja200merk]

its a 2 channel as u say "1200" watt PROFLE CALIFORNIA 2 channel amp, i planned on running one channel to the 2 subs they say the low power is 240 and 480 maxx

and then run the other channel to these 2 new poineer 220w max 6x9s... is this do able?

how bout the profile amp any good?

i plan on mounting the 2 new speakers in a small console i will make to sit over the tranny because there is NO WHERE up front to pu the dam speakers...

THANKS GUYS!
KEVIN

[pyro]

Don't attempt to make the amp run both 6x9's and subs. Both channels share a "level" control, this would not work well.

"MAX" power is a fictional number. It means nothing. "WATTS RMS" is the only power figure that matters. It sounds like your amp is 240 W x 2. Run the subs with it. One channel for each sub. You DO really want to have more power available than you need. Keeps the audio clean and distortion-free. Just take it easy on the volume, set it up accordingly.

6X9's belong in the rear deck above the trunk, plain and simple. What the hell kind of car is it?
Doesn't it have door speakers or dash speakers up front already?

[JakeC]

What Pyro said:) . Definitely do not use one channel of that amp for the subs and one for the 6x9's. Pyro's right about the gain control, but the other problem is that you would be running the 6x9's mono, and that would suck. If you can't actually mount the 6x9's in the rear deck, I would try building, or buying, two wedges for the 6x9's and put them on the rear deck. Try just hooking up the sub to your friends amp, and hooking the 6x9's the the rear output of your stereo, and see how it sound. It may overpower the 6x9's, but it is worth trying.


Jake

[baja200merk]

its a 79 grand prix its got 2 speakers up in the middle of the dash but they are 3 in big and had 2 6x9s but old ones behind the back seat i was gonna use those wires to run the subs in the trunk but found out i need an amp and cant, so now im using those speaker wires and just running the 2 new 6x9s with them...

kevin

[175checkmate]

Kevin,
Man you are having fun now.
The 6x9's should be an easy install in the rear deck behind the rear seat. Thats what the factory had. As for the front speakers. Have you taken off a door pannel to see if there is any room to a 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 speaker? A set of seperates would work well.
Is the sub box that you have ported or sealed?
The other thing you need to look at is a crossover EQ. The amps that have a built in crossover normaly don't work as well as an external crossover. Kenwood makes a real small 5 band EQ with sub control that works great. This really helps clean up the signal going to the sub.

[GP-1]

This whole thing is becoming convoluted... How much money do you want to spend?? If you want to blow 5k, you can buy equalizers, signal processors, etc.. I guess I was under the impression that you wanted to do this on the cheap, or you would've just taken it someplace and had it done.. I mean, the Profile amp that your buying (used) isn't the highest quality amp, but it'll work just fine for driving two subs.. If you want the cheapest way of making your system decent, buy another two channel amp to run your four internal speakers.. You can run two speakers from each channel.. You won't have a fader, but if you can live with that you'll get decent sound for minimal $$$
All this assumes that you have a HU with more than one set of pre-outs..

I'd agree that EQ's and the like have their place, but I have almost $5000 into mine without any seperate equalizers (just the ones in the amps) -- seems to work just fine..

[baja200merk]

my main concern is the amp's reliability is the "profile california 1200sx" gonna give me any chit?

hey guys never done this b4 but since i cant use the channels the way i planned the the back up plan was to run the 6x9s strait off the front stereo leads (cause i took the 2 3inch speakers out from the top of the dash and i used those wires to run the 2 6x9s) my only problem wit that is the fact that i have no where to put it so i came up wit an idea im gonna make a small 10inx10inx7in box carpet it to mach the interior, put cup holders on top of it and because there is nothin under the radio on top of the tranny ill mount the box with the 2 6x9s right there and not have to run any new wire or anything because they reach.
as for the subs i just unplugged the 2 6x9s that the previous owner mounted and clipped the wires into the 2 subs they are not loud at all cause i need the amp but i just wanted to see wut it would sound like... I FOUND OUT ITS BAD TO RUN THEM WITH NO AMP SO IM GLAD I ONLY LISTEND FOR 40 SEC AND SHUT IT OFF...

next question...
2 6x9s runing strait off the head unit (no amp) am i gonna trash the 220watt 6x9s by doing this?
thanks for your help men!

[pyro]

Consider replacing those 3" dash speakers with some better ones sometime soon. Shouldn't cost over $50 for a decent pair. For now, they will probably work OK. Set the "bass" control on your head unit a little bit lower than normal so they don't distort. The subs will be supplementing those frequencies anyway. 3's up front, 6x9's in the rear. Use the rear speaker wires to feed the speaker-level inputs on your Profile.

Does the Profile amp have a low-pass crossover? Adjustable? If it does NOT, then you're wasting your time, it will sound like hell without it.

You really don't want to run four speakers like this from a 2-channel amp. You need separate front/rear level controls, since the 3's and the 6x9's have different level requirements. Forget about the "separate amps" idea for now. You're on a tight budget, so... Just let your dash head unit run the main four speakers right now. Tap into the 6x9 wire leads and connect wires to the inputs of the sub amp.

No, you will not trash your speakers running them off the head unit. They are designed for it. REAR 6x9's sound good because they are acoustically efficient. They reflect sound off the back window and fill the car with loud, clear musical tone. Put the 3's back in the dash, put your new 6x9's in the rear where they belong. It WILL sound much better.

The Profile California is a decent amp. Does it have a built-in low-pass crossover??? Sometimes they call it "LPF" Low-Pass-Filter.

Let's keep it simple here:

[pyro]

I edited my post above. Read it again...

[GP-1]

So, I'm assuming from this diagram that your HU doesn't have RCA outputs??

That schematic may or may not work.. The impedence on the rear channels of the HU may cause it to shut down -- or maybe not.. If it does, I'd probably be inclined to just run two speakers for the mids/highs (6x9's) and run the other inputs to your amp.. I don't know what your music preference is, but unless you just like rap music with tons of bass, amplified bass (subs) with only 12 watts per channel (real output of most decks) running your remaining speakers might not sound the greatest....

[pyro]

The high impedance (speaker-level) inputs on the amps are designed to be used in the manner diagramed above. The amp's inputs will put an insignificant 100 ohm load per channel on the head unit (for a combined 3.85 ohm load each side.) I'm trying to help him keep things simple. There isn't much advantage to using RCA low-Z hookups unless you're going to a full outboard power amp setup, which he is NOT. No need to tear the car apart running extra unneccessary cables!

(each "line" drawn on my diagram is a two-conductor speaker wire.)

Just use some of those auto-parts-store blue plastic "tap" wire connectors, and tap a couple feet of two-conductor speaker wire into the wires near each of the 6x9 connections. Run these wires to the high-Z inputs on the amp.

You also need a large-gauge +12V wire going to the battery, another big wire for "ground", and any small-gauge wire to connect to the head unit (or "key on" power) to connect to the "remote" lug on the amp to tell it when to turn on.

THIS IS SIMPLE. Please don't try to confuse the kid any more. The way I have outlined and described is as simple and CORRECT as it gets, without purchasing more equipment.

I have installed $2500+ audio systems in several cars I have owned. I wish I hadn't wasted so much money on this crap...

[GP-1]

You're right, of course.. I know nothing.. and if I don't agree with you I should just shut up..

[pyro]

No, that wasn't what I said. I meant no offense, and my statement about "not confusing the kid" was not aimed toward any single person. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned the 4-channel amp crap to start with, I probably made things more confusing than they needed to be from the start. I apologize if I pissed anybody off.

The head unit's speaker wires can feed the speaker-level inputs on the amp, along with the stock speakers. that's how the high-Z amp inputs are designed to work. You were suggesting that it may cause a malfunction, and that he should use RCA low-Z feeds, which just adds unneccessary wires and confusion. He's on a budget, and I'm trying to help him in the simplest manner that will work well.

Kevin, ya got any more questions?

-Chad

[JakeC]

If I'm understanding Kevin correctly, he just wants his car to go BOOM! BOOM!, not blow anything up, and at least sound decent musically. I think he should go with what Pyro said, and see if it works. I would recommend against putting the 6x9's up front. Putting them in the rear deck is definitely better, due to the rear window helping disperse the high's. This is going to be very importand, because your subs are going to have plenty of power, but your 6x9's will be a little shy. So, they will need all the help they can get. It is also important because they will be spaced further apart, which will enhace stereo imaging. Anyway, hope this helps. I ran a sub with a Profile California, and it worked great for me. It does have an adjustable low pass filter. It also has adjustable gain, which will help you balance things out.


Jake

[baja200merk]

hows 100 bucks price wise for that amp?

the 3in speakers are right in the middle of the dash above the head unit they are right next to each other, they are not stock and seem to be pretty good pioneer speakers but the new 6x9s are about double the max power of the 6x9s in the rear deck from the previous owner...

so i hook the power to the 6x9s and run the negative off them to the amp to the subs correct?
the subs have a "bass boost" its a red and black wire that comes out of the sub useable?
it seems to me like puttin the 6x9s up front would be easier no? would they be loud enough?
ill try to do what you said pyro
thanks alot guys!
kevin

[pyro]

$100 is a bit high for a 8+ year old used amp, unless it's a huge R.F. or Kicker amp that was $1000+ new, which it was not... Check Ebay, lots of cheap used amps there.

What do you mean by hook the power to the 6x9s and run the negative off them to the amp to the subs ?

Connect the amp's inputs like this, hook up to the stock speaker wiring and feed the amp's inputs:

[baja200merk]

oh ok thanks alot ill let you know how i make out...

i tried to find the amp you were talkin bout couldnt find it? any other good companies you suggest? what wattage to i really need (almost minimum)
thanks!
kevin

[pyro]

At least 100 X 2 watts, the more the better, nothing "off-brand."
The amp MUST have an adjustable low-pass filter ("LPF") or "active crossover."
The Profile would be OK, did the deal fall through?

You need a BIG (2 or 4 gauge) 12 volt power wire connected to the battery with a fuse holder under the hood. This can be a little tricky. The wire can be hidden under the door frame panel, and perhaps under the back seat cushion and into the trunk. Also, a small-gauge "remote" wire between the head unit and the amp should be installed at the same time, and a large ground wire can be bolted to the car's frame near the amp with an eyelet-style connector. Hook up the subs and jam.

Phrases to search on Ebay:
"profile california"
"pioneer GM" (their amp numbers start with "GM")
"kenwood amp"

Check this one out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18796&item=5743245365&rd=1
Price is a bit steep. Note the adjustable Low-pass filter and speaker-level inputs. You want a 2-channel amp with these features.

-chad

[baja200merk]

oh yea i can probly still get the profile but you dont seem to like them too much... i dont want an amp thats gonna fail b4 summer... :rolleyes:

how do these look?:D

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39736&item=5743617013&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39737&item=5743037121&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39743&item=5742493010&rd=1

thanks alot!
kevin

[sho305]

That car, its the same body as a Monte SS right? I used to set those up with an amp that had a separate sub amp and X-over in it (or two amps and x-over). I'd run the 6x9s in the back deck but the deck is real narrow. I'd cut a thick board that just fit two tens with an inch between and on each side. then I'd cut a hole in the center of the rear deck leaving the cloth cover...screw the board with the tens back mounted right on there and plug the ends to the deck. But now everyone likes those big heavy boxes that you never needed in cars with rear decks...though you still do if you push that much power. I'd run a set of tweeters off the 6x9s and mount them in/on the front doors. If they didn't mind the holes I'd wack in a set of 5.25s or 4"s in the doors for a little better sound than just the tweeters up there. You can put tweeters inside the a/c vents I think, but there is little if any top dash room in those.

Other things you can do is run a cheap/used power booster on the mid/highs...turn the bass way down and hey it works better than the deck alone...just hide it away someplace once it is set right. You still need to make that amp bass only unless you make a 5th order box, but crossovers/EQs are pretty cheap or hold out for an amp with a x-over in it. You can usually buy a new one that would do the job for +/- 100 here at wallyworld, but might find a better deal on the net.

I used to use pyramid amps (the cheapest?) all the time though yes they lack some control, but can work fine with a tighter box. Never had one go bad. Better amps are better, but a cheap sub amp is worlds better than no subs. Cheap subs work fine as well IMO, for limited power, say 300/ch cheaper amp and 100-150 on a good one. I could make a car rattle some with a 300 pyramid and $30 pyramid 10s. They would last a few years if you didn't distort them and tuned it right. It was a lot of bang for the buck. 4 tens was even better. I could blow my head off with that stuff so I never put more in my car, though I worked on a lot of stuff for a while.

You need electronic X-over to get the most out of your stuff, try to find stuff used there is piles of it around. I used to buy stuff at police auctions, garage sales, refurbs on the net, amps for $20-30/etc. Try to find a 2 way crossover or most 3 way will run 2, or get like the kenwood EQ that was suggested, I think it cuts the bass out of the high amp also...got one here someplace and never liked it that well. With more power they just didn't have the quality but maybe they are better now. Mine was a 5500 I think. Anyway, get a big old cheap amp for your subs, a crossover, and a better smaller amp to run the mid highs...you will be cooking then. It is a good idea if you are really into it to collect stuff, because different components do not sound the same. You can use what works better in that car with that setup in the future. With a separate x-over you can swap out amps too. You want a better head unit and high side, the sub system can wait for quality.

Anyone ever seen a linear pa2, or PA-II? Most awesome thing I ever heard. It is a line driver and will drive your amps at like 5 volts all clean until they overload or shut down. They (Linear) are on the net now, I'm sure they are well over $200 for one though. Could plug one into any normal system and power it up big time. The high end uses that stuff, but I was amazed at what it would do on 1-3 amp system of =<300 watt amps. Hope this helps you.

Seems like you could get something like this http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=pyrpb448x and run your subs, then the rest off the front side. Might want to make sure it has a high pass on the high side though if you are not going to get a crossover. They have EQ crossovers for $30 anyway, the stuff is so cheap now compared to years ago. If you are talking cheap, this stufff should work fine with a little tweeking and get you in the game. Get a good head unit with rca's to run amps ASAP if you don't have one; they make the amps sound good or you just amp up a junk signal.

[baja200merk]

Is That A Decent Amp?
Just Dont Feel Like Running Into Problems

[rchevelle71]

I have a few new in the box Pyle amps that I bought, and was going to use in my boat, I may go a different route now, I have a 4 channel(I believe 1000 watts total, 250/channel, but that is peak, not RMS), and a 2 channel(I believe 600 watts, 300/channel again Peak), They are matching, I will think up a price, and get you the specs tomorrow.

[sho305]

What brand/money you want to do is up to you. I'm just saying I have used those and it worked good. It is not going to be the same as a $4K/etc system of course. Then again, when my head started to hurt I didn't bother putting more power into my cars though I did plenty of others. I can get all the great sound I want out of that stuff using better head and x-over units. The higher the frequency the better speakers you need, but you can find low cost stuff that works well. I assume you want to get a system up and running with minimal cash, then you can upgrade parts of it on the run as you like. High quality for the thump is the last thing you need to spend for quality on unless all you want is thump and no music. I just saw a $139 Kenwood 800 mono sub amp in the paper here also.

I'm guessing I could buy a $150 head (more would be better) a $50 x-over, $100 big cheap sub amp, Well under $100 for a set of 10"s-maybe $60 even, $100+ for a smaller better mid/high amp(could start with $80 though), reasonable 6x9s and I prefer 2 ways, and some good tweeters or a separates 4-6" and tweeter...maybe even 5.25s in front. Those front speaker's quality will dictate the fidelity of your music the most. I like 2 way 6x9s because they tend to usually give more mid bass than 3 way but you have to test them. You need a good enough quality head and x-over to push a clean signal to the amps or it will not work well no matter.

Proper box, mounting, or type of sub is needed to get them to work right. Some subs you can mount in the deck for example, and others will need a box. fyi-I don't like a lot of the boxes out there...often they are too tight no doubt to handle more power. A looser box on that reasonable amp size I talked about, will give good results and great thunder. The next one I do I will try tubes for the subs as they weigh much less. I have a small one I been messing with, and after stuffing it some it is sounding more promising. I usually made my own boxes. I even have a single 10" DV 5th order I use on a home stereo that works pretty good...with no x-over. Have not had time to fiddle with that stuff lately.

For a box example I would use 2 cu ft for each 10" minimum with a port to get the sould I wanted. Running cheap subs, I would even change the volume of the box to match the amp, as some would bottom and a better one would not. It would get all the way to 20hz but maybe you like it higher. What that would do is free up the sub to the wattage available. It would blow out with more power...but I got the max with that. I could plug the port and run more power of course, but why bother. The bigger stuff you get the more expensive, more noise problems, more power supply problems, etc. I'm getting older and can still hear you know...;)