NEED HELP FROM ANY OMC MECKANECK'S!!

[Instigator]

OMC factory manual calls for a clamping fixture to align the connecting rod with cap during installation.I have always used a metal scribe to "feel" the paring lines at the cap and align accordingly. Think this was proper during cross flow days, am I OK if I assemble this way or do I need another freaking high zoot OMC tool???
Any help from my brothers out there would be greatly appreciated!! Thanx guys! Instigator

[Ray Neudecker]

Works for me. I have fortunately never seen that tool. I don't think I have ever had a problem not using it, but if is costly and i don't need it, I surely will have to buy one now. I can hang it with the other 200 special tools I have never used.

[pist'n broke]

I never use any tool, just a pick like you said and havent had a problem with my 86 looper block.

[Instigator]

Was hoping you were on line! Literally deciding wether to keep bolting together or quit and wait.
First time I've seen one too. Does look "cool" and make since. It clamps to the sides of the rods/caps and uses clamping pressure to align while you torque bolts.
And yes its an OMC tool, so its not even cheap (!!!!)like if it was a Snap On!!
Thanx Ray!! And back to work!

[Instigator]

THANX GUYS!!!
DON'T YOU LOVE THIS WEB SITE/BOARD????
Instigator

[RichS]

Hey Gary! I found the other 5 3 1/2 pistons, of course we were looking at them on the "Wall of Junk". If ya need them shoot me your address and I'll get them off to ya. The odd #'s will have to be bead blasted. Rich

[alan knight]

The tool insures perfect alignment of the rod. Assemble the rod outside the block without the fixture,now run your finger around the bearing surface area and most of the time you will feel the mating area. Repeat the above procedure, this time using the fixture, and you will feel a smoother bearing area. The rods on the newer 60 degree do apear to be the same as the old cross flow rod used years ago but some of them will give alignment problems without the fixture also. I know the $340+ is outrageous but just look at it like this most dealerships will loan you one if you put up a deposit to replace the tool in the event you don`t return it. Don`t use the tool if you choose not too. But on the other hand don`t use gearcase shiming tools,micrometers,dial indicators,surfacing plates and the other tools that good mechanics use. Had the honor to learn with some of the best technitions in the country and they stay with the manuals,after all they wrote them.. But just my humble opinion on the rod tool usage. Alan

[Ray Neudecker]

dealers around here don't have to loan. I have not had a problem hand aligning and torquing up in stages.The engines have turned over 9000 without a problem. I hav a great many special tools I do use. But over the years I like many others have found that there are necessary ones and there are many sold that are not necessary, but highly profitable to the tool companies. I have bought out whole sets where dealers were closing and find most never came out of the box.

[MattGreen]

Gentlemen:
I have the tool in question, and in my humble opinion, it is worth the money. I find it really hard to believe that OMC would specifically mandate in their FACTORY manuals a procedure and tool that was unnecessary. Now, I did a few rebuilds before I got it, and they run fine, but having the correct tool for the job means you don't have any question about whether the caps are aligned correctly or not - they come out perfect every time. I bought mine cheap from a retired OMC tech-rep. It IS expensive, and some dealers in my area don't have one for that reason. The mechanic Pist-N-Broke learned from never had one, for example.

And another thing Instigator: This isn't meant as a personal attack, but us OMC fans and home engine builders would really appreciate it if you did everthing possible to NOT reinforce the respective stereotypes. It is possible to build an OMC powerhouse at home, but not without a LOT of care, RESEARCH (not just on the phone), time, and money for good parts and tools. There's no need for home built engines to grenade all the time.

Respectfully,
Matt Green

[Instigator]

O.K., I'm cornfused. What'd I do to piss you off??

[Ray Neudecker]

Obviously Matt doesn't believe OMC ever made any errors in any of the things they did. Some people resent the free flow of information that keeps you out of their shops.

[pist'n broke]

If your such a great engine builder how come I never see your **** at the races?
P.S. you have no idea where I learned to build motors so please keep me out your posts. thanks.

[alan knight]

If you have any rod alignment tools in the box with all the parts I would like to buy them. Seeing how they are needless junk to you I will give 100.00 for a couple of sets. It appears that the rods in the motors sold in the South need alignment tools. Let me know as their are some folks down here that would gladly give you 100.00 for the tool. Ps. also send me a list of the needless special tools that you need to sell.

[Ray Neudecker]

I don't have any rod alignmnt tools, apparently this is an OMC exsclusive. i don't ever sell any of my tools anyway,there is always the thought that you may need it some day. Many of the special tools are an absolute necessity to do the job right. Experience has not shown this to be th case for me for this particular tool. of course one of the reasons so many of the special tools are not used is being forced on dealers in complete sets for motors they don't sale and service. I, personally never work on many of the small motors and very seldom see many 3.liter motors in this area. How we got into all of this is really amazing. most inovation with non Mercury motors is done by the backyard or small shop people. they are constantly rying new things and pushing the motors to the limit.You will also end up with more broke motors this way. The factory way in these cases is not going to produce a high performance motor.There is a lot of pleasure in being able to make it not only do more than the factory did, but in being able to terrorize the Mercury fishing and Hi performance motors. Every post i make is an effort to help someone with a problem i have either encountered or seen in the last 38 years of dealing with rce or hi performance boating. many of the things I have learned have come from information from other people. I have also seen a lot of very poor info passed around. This is the nature of the world.

[Instigator]

Not sure what the real gig is here, but here goes nothing.
First off let me start by saying, I'm building an OMC motor to go fast, and yes I'm donig it at home in my garge.
If anybody has a problem with that, or feels the need to bash me (??) for it, I've got a simple solution.
DON'T READ OR REPLY TO MY POSTS!!
After thet last one, I went back and read the description of the "Technical Discussion" board to make sure I was'nt in the wrong place, I'M NOT!
I participate here when I have advice that I know is factual and hopefully helpfull. Like Ray said, a lot of in-accurate B.S. goes through these doors, some from respected people that know better!
Like I said, my input is factual,opinion, or stated otherwise.
I come here for help because there is a wealth of info on this site. If "SOME" people are willing to give me some advice to keep me from making the same mistakes they have, I guess I don't understand the problem with that??? Thought that was the main reason for this board???
As far as stereo types, I'm still cornfused on that one??? Guess maybe because I'm doing this in my garage that makes me a loser??? Or my motor's goining to scatter as soon as I fire it????
As far as the "OMC Tuners" go, I have had advice, thats it!! No specs, no part numbers, discounted services, nothing! I want to say I "built" this engine myself, not just assembled. I have the highest regard for what all you Tuners are doing! Don't think I'm trying to compare my self to you guys.
In my mind Hi PO outboarding is similar to Hot Rodding in the 40's and 50's especially for an OMC. The parts dont exist, you have to make them! Guess what, thats what I like. I pick on the merc guys in fun only! I've already got more money in my looper than what I could have bought a strong running merc for. My freakin motor's still in boxs!! I HAVE stated that you can make as much HP's or more with a looper than anything else, including a merc! I stand by that statement. I am smart enough to know that I can't get close to the tuners level of HP's, but I believe their are several people out there, (Alan Stoker, and Gordon Montague are two of them) that can.
So the rest of you guys know, I have communicated with these guys only to ask if I am on the right path for my project, and is my targeted HP level attainable, thats it!
No one told me to pick an '87 GT 200 to build, actually just the oppostie! They all said to go '88 or newer to get 3 liters to start with!
I chose what I did because I thought I was on to something with the bridgeort exhaust and having factory sleeves thick enough from the factory to poke to 3 liters. Still think I'm on to something!
One thing I have learned about the Tuners, and that's that they are all very tight lipped about what they're donig (that's working) and I would expect nothing less! I have defended Jon Lentzkows chamber project on this site many times for the same reason. I understand the time, money and effort involved in improving something that engineers from a multi million dollar company designed. IT AIN"T EASY!
To Matt Green, you should take comfort in knowing that after talking to my local OMC dealer, I am renting his rod aligning tool and diss-assembling my 250 Ocean Pro power head that I just finished assembling last night! Planned on installing on mid section tonight!
If Mr. Green thinks I am taking business from the local dealers/mechanics or the tuners he is partially right.
There is only one mechanic in my area (central Ohio) that I trust, and thats Jimmy Carter. He said, tear it back down, so I am. I bought both my Ocean Pros from him and he understands that I enjoy doing the work myself and has no problem with it. Other than Jim, most of the mechanics around here have'nt worked on anything bigger than a 25 HP fishing motor. Should I take my motor to one of those guys Matt??? I may be a shade tree mechanic, but I can hold my own against most of them!!
One the tuner issue, I don't have the money, and would not get the same enjoyment out of having one of them build my motor.
I do plan to prove that a capable home mecahnic can make a home brewed JohnRude run with or past a merc. Is that a problem?? I've also said if you just want to go fast, a merc is much cheaper and easier than anything out there. Look at all the freakin mercs on the sale board!!
Heres another question to you Matt, do you think I might spend some money with the tuners anyhow?? Or maybe send business their way??? I already have on both accounts! I'm not asking for anybodies hard earned secrets, just some help.
I also have acces to a dyno for development work Mr. Green, am I still a stereotypical hill billy?
I spent a year doing research on building a 440/6 for my Super Bee and did everything but the machine work myself, including porting the heads. Guess what, it still runs five years later!
12.60's through the mufllers on street tires while granny shifting! (4 spd will not power shift!!)
Ask Sleekster.
It kills me that we are all involved in a sport that is by all rights, probably on its death bed and lending advice and support is a problem??
If my project goes the way I want and hope, maybe we will see a whole new rash of go fast OMC guys!! Most of them will buy parts/services from a tuner.
Another point I'm out to prove is that with proper rigging and set up you can go "WAY FAST" with more moderate HP's than what most people realize.
So, lets review-------- I'm building a go fast looper, by myself, re-rigging a boat, by myself, driving, well you get it.
So I guess if someone has a problem with that, tuff ****, don't read my posts!!
Once again, thanx to all of you that are enjoying and motivating me in this project, I could'nt do it with out all of you. Thanx!
One sary thing though, like Ken Warby said, "work's startin to get in the way of my boating!"
Instiagtor

[Ray Neudecker]

There you go. Hang in there and do it the way you want. You will be happy but I hope never satisfied. if I can help you just ask. Good Luck. Ask if that tool will work on a 2.5 rod. that is where a need for it is crying out. I would buy one if it fit those tarbabies.

[Rickracer]

:-)

[84exciter]

hey instigator,
just a word or two of incourgement.
1 great project!,i hope everything works like a dream!!!
2.I haven't built a looper,yet,but i do ALL my own work to my 2.6GT,and the 2.6GT on the 'stream,and a dozen more crossflows.without a single motor failure,not one!i turn my 2.6 on the 'mate to 7000 almost every time out and still ski behind it.
3. ignore the uninformed and narrow minded people that only feel better about themselves by putting others down.
i wish you the best of luck with "FRANKENRUDE",go kick some Merc.butt.
drew

[Robbie B]

Go for it Instigator,
Attitudes are the same the world over, some dealers and tuners (the few that there are in New zealand)will tell you that making an outboard go fast is the domain of the experienced profesional only , no room for Joe Average. I disagree, I've raced 3ltr inboard (yes INBOARD) hydroplanes for 27 years now, but back in 86 had an idea to flop a 235 Johno on its side and run it as an inboard. Knew absoloutly NOTHING about outboards. Bought a 79 235 powerhead from a wrecker and a service manual. Bit intimidated by this big white beast so took a trip to the to the city to talk over the project with a major OMC dealer and technician. "put it back in the box, send it back and get your money back" was the technicians harsh reply. To cut a very long story short it took a season to perfect the installation, enduring the laughter of fellow competitors and experienced outboard professionals along the way . At the last race meeting of the 86 season the the little Johno blew all the open class opposition into the weeds. For the next 10 years the boat was at the top of the heap in its class and the 6ltr class above. Ha Ha experienced professionals. OMC New Zealand via my local one man band dealer/mechanic, officially didn't want to know about it but unofficially supplied me with a lot of tech info to really make the Johno hummmmm. (only after the fact) F1 tunnel guys very helpful also.
So Instigator keep up the lateral thinking, I'm keen to follow your 200 GT project as I've had a break from the race scene and am activly looking for a new powerplant for the hydro. ( even considered a black 2.5 )
Any Joe Average, working man who puts their mind to it and does the reasearch can get immense enjoyment and pleasure from making their outboard really hummmmmmmmmm.

[Instigator]

Was trying to ask you on the other board (did'nt come out right) if the Mate Exciter is the 17' model???
If so, that thing should be flying for you!!
Just curious.

[alan knight]

Instigator if you reread the past post I think you can get off Matt`s Ass as I`m the one that told you to use the damn fixture and to check the rods outside the block. But bud you can damn well rest assured I won`t bother to read your post anymore and offer any hard learned experienced. Later Alan

[Instigator]

Re-read the posts.
I am picking up the tool today and totally dissassembling a complete, dressed powerhead because of some of the response I got, including yours. I understand and accept what that tool does.I appreciatte and respect the input from the experienced individuals on this board, such as yourself.
I "defeneded myself" of what looked to be an attack (??) from Matt about being stereotypical and scattering motors because I don't know what the hell I'm doing! Not because you told me to use a special tool?????
If thats wrong, then **** happens huh?
I am 42 years old now and I rebuilt my first outboard motor when I was 13, I built my first boat when I was 13, I started racing when I was 17. I paid for everything myself when I was in junior high school. I built my own motors, boats, trailers, and beat on my own wheels. I lost almost every weekend, but I also raced in a region that had current and past national champions at every race, that had been racing the same 30 year old mercs since they were new.
And I would'nt change a thing! Your only as fast as your competition!
I rebuilt my first V-6 ('83 XP 2.6) 16 years ago.
I have done this before! I look to you guys for guidance on specific parts, combinations etc.
I guess bottom line is if I get backed in a corner I will defend myself. Again, **** happens, when you go against the flow you get used to it after a while!
So do what you gotta do, and interpret the previous posts as you see fit.
See Yah Alan,
Instigator

[Michael Martin]

I have learned from the dark side of this board

1. project vector - if you do something that a few people have failed at you are a failure. (BULL****)

2. project ccc-x-flow-looper/merc - You can't do it because it hasn't been done before. (bigger bull****)

Inst - I am just like you> I enjoy the figuring out of the intricate detailing of how to make it work. I get an Idea in my mind & I just go with it. Most of the time (like you) It would be cheaper to just buy a nother motor but hell that aint no fun.

everyone else - let us not down someone for their attempts even if ours have failed. Instead explain why our attempts didn't work & what might help. That's what this board is really about.

Mike Martin

[84exciter]

sorry,i misunderstood you.to answer your question,the exciter is 18'6".i thought you were talking about the other boat,17' Vector w/2.6 johnny,cmc jack,l&s heads,cone,etc.
how's the motor comming? good i hope!did you say you live in ohio?i'm in nj,but i'd drive out for a ride!
good luck,
drew

[Jeff "Yammer"]

Hey Bud ,
How the hell are ya??
Yammer is allmost ready to hit the water!
You have a knack for making friends I see.

Hope all is well!!
Jeff

[alan knight]

Hey Instigator I aint sore just trying to save you some woes down the road. Good luck on the project and if you need some rods for the looper I got 16 good ones in my attic and a lot of V8 stuff. I will probably never build another one up. Later Alan

[Sleekster]

Damn migraine....I'd much rather have been in this friendly fire. OMC on OMC, seems we already have enough verbage from the other motor company.

So I must have missed something... us shade tree's are in the dark? Buncha knuckle dragers? Can't tell the difference between intake and exhaust? (Guys, the exhaust IS where the motor farts, right?)

I strongly disagree with Matt Green's statement. I think. But on second thought, I don't give a damn. No offense Matt.

Instigator, is the alignment tool easy to use?

[Instigator]

Dealer offerd use of his alignment jig and then spent the last two days playing hard to get??
Time to go boating!
The power head goes on!
just so you guys know, all of you that said "don't worry about it" will be responsible if it breaks!!
Just kiddin.
Alan made a good point about being able to feel the parting lines on the rod/crank journal I.D. when assembled w/o it??
My feeling is, that cross flow and looper rods are very similar, and the pick deal was factory manual spec on the flows.
I will also assemble a rod out of block with the "pick" method and feel the I.D. to see what I think.
So Alan, if the offer still stands, keep my name on those rods in your attic!!
Keep your fingers crossed!
Instigator

[Edited by Instigator on 05-16-2001 at 08:01 PM]

[84exciter]

instigator,yammer
i sent those pics,a little blured but i could'nt drive and shoot.hope you got them
drew

[Instigator]

Gotta get the Sonic done so I can switch to the Stream!!!
I'm dying here!
Thanx for the pix drew! Awesome ride!!
I believe you said, Jersey aint that far from Ohio???

[Instigator]

Gonna run the 250 w/o the fixture. Don't believe there's enough difference to do more than prematurely wear rod bearings. And after seeing all the potential in the block, I'm gonna go through both motors this fall anyhow.
I tried assembling a bare rod and then feeling the I.D. of the rod and you can feel it like Alan said, but it is very minute. (depending on how well you do the pick deal)
For the FrankenRude, I will have a fixture made.
It makes since if you look at the thing. The rods are basically rough castings that are machined and then cut in half. This fixture aligns off of the outside machined surfaces to perfectlly align the inner race.
Kinda in line with our bench racing when you were in town. Make it straight, square and round and you will be rewarded.
Gotta motor ready yet??? Don't tell me you're being distracted again!
See yah Bro!

Instigator

[MattGreen]

Instigator and Others:

After rereading my previous post, it's clear the tone of my message was very inflamatory and, in fact, insulting. I didn't intend it that way. I apologize sincerely. I really didn't know the extent of your experience or committment to this project. All I was concerned about was somebody grinding up a looper, and campaining it as a "Merc-Killer", only to have it fail and make OMC hot rodders look bad. I think we would all agree that that reflects poorly on OMC motors, which we all know have HUGE amounts of potential.

Perhaps you would be interested in how serious I take a similar project that I've been working on for some time, since Pist-N-Broke took a couple swipes at me. I'm a full time university sudent (honours biology), so I only have 4 months per year, and VERY limited funds, to pursue engine tinkering. I'm so serious about working on outboards that I took a year off of school to go to a 10 month technical college for some real outboard training. Two of my instructors were former OMC tech-reps, so I picked their brains ad nauseum. I spend as much time as possible in the Mechanical Eng library at my university reading technical papers on Two-Strokes, and I'm trying to talk my way into a copy of Dr. Gordon Blair's newest software for 2-stroke simulations. I have a loop V4, and want to take it to a very high level, so I've bought 1 junk "practice" block to experiment with grinder, burrs, layout, etc, plus a second mint block, in addition to the stock powerhead on my boat at present. I buy blown-up loopers, rebuild them, and sell them to help support my boat addiction. I'm a home amateur as well, but I do work on boats as my paying summer job (a rigger on high-end yachts).

Anyway, now that we both see where the other is coming from, can we focus instead on building motors in our garages that embarass those from Merc hi-po engineers, rather than bickering ?

As for the rod-cap alignment tool debate: I agree that some factory tools are not worth their price, and I definately agree that OMC engineers ARE fallible (stringer-drive outdrives come immediately to mind). I cringe at some of OMC's quality control as well !!

I know of a couple of very good mechanics (shop owners) that worked for years without "The tool", for the same reasons everybody mentioned above, and they never had a problem, so it definitely is not a necessity. I think everybody would agree that it IS better to assemble a motor with the tool rather than without it, however.


I'm all typed out now, let me know what everybody thinks,
Matt Green
matt_green@mybc.com

[Sleekster]

Bid Mess, please Matt one problem at a time. Oh, wait, I think you meant Big. Oh, in that case....Respect to you for clarifying your post. Caught myself a bit insecure about my own shade tree attempt. Nice to have ths board and the support it gives. The contacts have been great and I've used many. And will use more. Now that we are all getting along again................

Hope the ride was uneventful in the Sonic.

Drew, NJ isn't far from MD. Are you going to the Rumble on the River? How about you Matt? PA isn't far from either NJ or MD.......be really cool to caravan across, and anybody else that wants to go, hell you don't even have to have an OMC. Guys......... guys........., did I say something wrong? Where did everybody go? Shoot, you'd think I'd have farted in an elevator w/ the door open....Just b/c I invited the dark side.

OK, OK, what do I need to do so we all get along again?

[Rickracer]

If everybody had Instigators enthusiasm, there would be so many Bad-Ass OMCs around the darkside would hafta run and hide. :-) Very cool of you.

[Michael Martin]

Congrats on the understatding.

If you need any hp parts for your v-4 let me know.

Mike

[Instigator]

I LOVE YAH MAN!
Instigator

[84exciter]

we usually make a couple of trips to Northeast,Md./Havre de grace a year.where and when is the Rumble?
drew

[LaveyT]

Looked it up in the DICKsonary and ther was a picture of you!!!A "stereotype" is an OMC blown up?The stereotype OMC dude is a fisherman.Or a total fanatic that is totally consumed and dedicated to the pursuit of wuppin Merc butt!Oh yea I been "thinkin bout rebuilden" a motor some time,Im 23 years old,And I guess that Qualifies me to get on your ****..........:0.
Just Kidden,Sorry I missed all the Crap..hehehe

[Instigator]

that nothing else matters, bills, job, house, family, is that a problem????
Don't think so but thought I better check.
Keep remembering Warby saying that work was gettin in the way of his boating.

[Instigator]

Drew, the Rumble on the River is August 10-12 on the Ohio River about 30 miles N.E. of Cinci.
Fair description of event on the hot boat gatherings board.
I am way behind on publicizing it due to having three broken motors in my garage (actually just went to 2).
Anyhow, nothing real fancy just miles of table top smooth water with a 4 lane concrete boat ramp with 93 octane gas, camp sites on the river, pub, restaurant, beach front to pull boats on or aim radar guns at boats!
Started out as a fun get together with a couple of boats and has grown into a full blown OMC (or any non-merc) vs Merc shoot out.
Got confirmations from as far away as Canada and Florida so far. Jeff W. is towing down his killer Yammi powered Viking to go merc huntin (he hates em worse than I do!), Sleekster towing in from Maryland, Lloydster is thrashing as we speek to get his Action Marine rigged to tow up from Fla. Captain Kirk is trying to confirm as well and its right in Lavet T's backyard.
Basically,gorgeous water/site to burn gas durring the day and bench race around a bon fire on the beach at night.
Trying to find a donor four stroke outboard to sacrifce too??? (Can anybody help me???)
Bottom line, should be fun for all, lots of non mercs coming out in force to spank some mercs but ultimately to have fun with our go fast O/B brothers regardless of religious beliefs and for me to have a chance to prove to all of them that all the teasing has been in good fun over the Winter.
I would love to see all the badd ass Mercs that I know are out there, show up and play. A fast O/B is a fast O/B!
For now, call me if you want any further info. Hope to see you there! Gary 614-777-5885


[Edited by Instigator on 05-17-2001 at 06:07 PM]

[LaveyT]

Yea,your consumed by it,The first step is surrender,Admit that you are powerless over your Obsession with Ole Evinrude,Accept the fact that a power greater than yourself can restore some sanity in your life.Take a fearless moral inventory of your wrongs against Merc owners,
Make Amends to these Merc owners whenever possible,Except when it would harm them or your self.....I think thats enough for today.I want you to think about what you have done,and where you are going.
YEA YOUR ATE UP WITH IT DUDE!!!If somethin ever happens to Ken,You will be my Hero!p.s.Did I tell you I quit drinkin?:)

[LaveyT]

If all goes well should hit the water tomorrow.Gonna jack the motor to the same altitude I ran the Merc at,Use Gregs duct tape Idea and get some numbers with the stock lowerunit.Then I will have something to compare the Bobs cone lower against.Should be Interesting.

[Sleekster]

LT, NOW who has the quirky humor? Way to go. Great pose.

Exciter -- if you can't make it to the Rumble, and even if you can, I'd be glad to hook up on the Northeast, or Elk or on top of the dam for that matter. Still have some major work left to do. What's the name of that little sand bar north of the Susquehana? Its right next to that _______Bay.

Scott, Might be a neat day to join up, and make it a "Get-to-know-ya party".

Hey, to anyone who cares, Rachel,my oldest, got third place in the Regionals for pole vaulting today. She goes to State on Sat. a week!!!!

[Rickracer]

It's always great when your kids do well at what they choose to do. Congrats to dad too, :-)

[Sleekster]

Thanks x 2.