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View Full Version : I JUST HEARD 712 LBS FOR THE YAMMI!!!



Instigator
05-12-2001, 01:34 PM
Just heard from a local dealer that the new Yammi is a "AMAZINGLY LIGHT" 712 lbs.
Also heard they actually sank a boat at dock during testing!!
Got to get me one of those!!!

jimmyb
05-12-2001, 04:41 PM
is this a true report, or are you just pulling our chain?

Instigator
05-12-2001, 04:55 PM
This was told to me by a local OMC dealer this morning. He hates four stroke O/B's as much as I do but does'nt normally B.S.

tombrown
05-12-2001, 07:39 PM
Hey Instigator, why do you hate four stroke engines? If EVERYTHING else were equal, I'd buy a four stroke in a heart beat. Am I missing something? Won't the four stroke be better suited to supercharging, etc.?

3 litre Formula 1 car engines weigh about 90 lbs, crank out ~750 hp and run for a couple of hours at 17k+ RPM. That doesn't sound that bad to me. I like the simplicity of two stroke engines, but it's not like performance can't be had from a four stroke.


Regards,

Tom Brown

Euroski
05-12-2001, 07:46 PM
Now that's a real "boat anchor"!!!

Sleekster
05-12-2001, 10:08 PM
weight of twins, the price of one and the power of a half. Did I miss something in this higher math?

Instigator
05-13-2001, 09:36 AM
An F-1 car motor is way over 90 lbs, has a power band about 500 rpm wide, has at least 6 gears.
The biggest down fall of the 4 strokes is weight. The big advantage of a 2 stroke is light weight and a very high HP/CU.IN. ratio.
The best near stock outboards are getting close to 300 HP's from 2.5 liters with a power head weight of about 150 lbs. The best car mohhhhtttaars are using 3 liters, turbo/super charging, variable valve timing, multi valves etc. to get 300 hp's at a weight of 300-350 lbs. And it takes multiple gears to make em work (to stay in powerband). Add a mid section, trim, and a gear case and you have a over weight, weak kneed pig!
Another problem that will rear its ugly head with time will be maintenace, or lack of. A two stroke basically needs good gas/oil and clean plugs. A 4 needs oil changes, valves (and lots of them)adjusted, turbo/super chargers rebuilt etc,etc.
How many 35 yr. old O/B (2 strk) do you see sitting out in a field with no cover on it, it has'nt had any maintenace done in the last 10 yrs. but the guy still fishes/skis with it every Sunday??
Try that with a turbocharged, intercooled, twin overhead cammed, 30 valve V-6 with ten year old oil in the crank case!
I don't hate all 4 strokes, just O/B's!
I love technology regardless of breed, but the only reason we even have 4 stk O/B's now is because of the tree huggers that have forced them on us and know nothing of the business/sport.
I belong to S.A.E. and in one of the last magazine issues they had an article reporting on their national conference and it focused on the this subject and CARB in Cal. specifically. These are the idiots forcing the emission limits on us with know knowledge of what they are doing.
Anyhow, one of the SAE engineers told CARB that because you force us to build and drive electric cars does'nt mean you are eleiminating or even reducing pollution due to the fact that you have to charge the batteries in the electric car at some point and that requires electricity from a power plant which burns coal to produce it. HUMMH?
Guess their responce?????
They said they did'nt care because they were pushing the elec. power plants out of California anyhow so it would'nt effect them!! I have the issue if anyone wants to see proof of what idiots these people really are.
Again, don't miss interpret me Tom, I love the idea that you can go buy a stock bike that will run 190+, or a car with a turbocharged 4 banger that will run with my 440/6 Super Bee. I live for all that ****!
Just keep them the **** away from my O/B's!!!
See Yah! instigator

FCnLa
05-13-2001, 03:01 PM
Hell, why not just bolt a SB Chevy to a V8 OMC center and lower. Could not weigh much more! Way more power and a cooler sound. Oh and about the electric "pollution free" cars, uses fossel fuels to make electricity, electricity charges batteries, which are usually LEAD and SULFURIC ACID, real environmental friendly stuff. The media is not in the "real" world!

[Edited by FCnLa on 05-13-2001 at 03:04 PM]

ODDD1
05-13-2001, 03:18 PM
AMEN!!!!!! Thanx for poundin' it out,lotta us feel same way.

tombrown
05-13-2001, 03:35 PM
Good point about the weight. I was confused. When I looked up some of the guestimated specifications, they put the lightest weight at 85 - 97 kg (not pounds). That would be a couple of hundred pounds. I wonder if this weight includes the required accessories like the air source for the valve system, cooling, etc. I'll bet it doesn't.

You're way off on the power band. The first step of the Fuel conservation mode in F1 typically lowers the rev limit by 500 RPM. While this compromises the engine's power, it doesn't make it undriveable. Martin Brundle describes the usable power as starting at about 11k. I'll see if I can find the quote. You make an interesting point though. An F1 engine on a boat clearly could not pull away from the dock without some help from gearing or clutching of some sort and that too would add weight.

Speaking of the SAE, what happened to all the talk of 2 stroke engines in cars? I recall some studies being done in northern Europe that showed promise. They predicted cheap, small, powerful engines in a short time. Perhaps they went the way of the plastic cylinder block research that the Japanese were doing. It would be a very hard sell.

You make some good points about the capabilities of 2 stroke outboard engines. It's pretty awesome when I stop to think about it.

BTW, when I was a kid I ran a 340 Challenger. Now I run a Nissan Maxima. Oh, how things change.


Cheers,

Tom

Instigator
05-13-2001, 05:19 PM
Local dealer that made the weight statement says (like fcla also said)"it does'nt matter if they work or not, it's what the public THINKS they want".
They will need two things to ever be able to make a big 4 stroke really work. #1. a transmission, #2. a lot more plastic parts!!! The japs are definately killer engineers but when it comes to the weight issue, the O/B manufacturers have spent the last 70 years shaving off every last ounce of weight they could. So how do you make up for the addition of 150 lbs of extra mass to the power head???
I made the same statement (again same as fcla) to this dealer that you could stand a small block Chevy on top a mid and have 400 reliable horse power for the same weight as these pigs!!
Be funny if the japs spend all their R/D money on these things and we all (the buying customer) figure out they're pigs and don't buy any of them???
Kinda like what they did with the V-Twin Harley clones. Theirs were (know I'll piss some people off with this one)lighter, faster, cheaper, more dependable, handled better. But they are engineers, and were'nt smart enough to figure out that no one really cared!! They were'nt Harleys! I loved that one! You could buy the clone bikes new in the box for .20 cents on the dollar!
Problem with this one is the EPA and CARB.
THEY AIN'T TAKIN MY TWO STROKE FROM ME THOUGH!

jimmyb
05-14-2001, 07:51 AM
one more thing to add about the 4 strokes...

how long do you think your car would last if you ran it at the rev limiter for most of its life? granted, race motors can last a fair amount of time @ WOT, but that is a race motor, not a standard production car motor. for a 4-stroke to be viable on a boat, it almost has to be a race built motor, which equals $$$.

[Edited by jimmyb on 05-14-2001 at 07:54 AM]

Instigator
05-14-2001, 08:05 AM
I argue with the I/O guys all the time when they say O/B's are un-reliable. The I/O guys count the seconds when they're WFO! If its a strong I/O its almost always apart, same thing will happen on 4 stroke O/B's.
I took a couple of I/O guys for a ride in my Sonic last summer on Lake Erie. We had been "discussing" if they could make my 24' Sonic run as good w/a single I/O as it does with my twin 250 loopers.I said they were probably right with a stout big block but did'nt think it would live.
I did a lap around an island up there (6 of us in the boat) thats 9 miles by 3 miles for a total of about 24 miles all at WFO! (about 75 MPH's)
We came back to their boats at the beach and I asked if they thought their I/O version would do that. They all said no!
Four strokes are for cars and bikes!

05-14-2001, 02:30 PM
With DFI coming up to speed, the days of the 4-stroke are numbered both on water and on land. And any engineer that knows his stuff will tell you that the "Doo-Injection" (Sea-Doo-Ficht) is where its at. The others are far too complicated.

Ron V
05-14-2001, 02:53 PM
712 pounds? No setback required.

Techno
05-14-2001, 03:41 PM
[list]
50lbs.Aluminum "chevy 350 block
40lbs. light weight crank
40lbs. Aluminum heads dressed
??lbs. pistons and all the rest.

200lbs? = 700+ hp (or much more)on one lower unit More RPM than a 2.5.
Should have enough torque to overcome no gear box. This is with aftermarket parts. Why can't a manufacturer build a 4-stroke that comes close or exceeds this with lowerer cubes and lower weight?

Every one compares car engines with putting a four stroke on an outboard. I've never seen an outboard made from Iron.
Build a 4-stroke with brand new materials to be an outboard not a converted car to outboard. A manufacturer did this and failed I think because they haven't hit the mark of performance.
Large bore flat opposed 4 cylinder with centrifigal supercharging. A center section that actually did something besides support the engine, incorporated into the engine and loose some weight there
2-strokes are supposed to get 2HP/lb. make a 4-stroke that meets that requirement.
And if your running set back remove it.

Sleekster
05-14-2001, 08:26 PM
Push rod or cam? Timing belt or chain? valves, rockers, distributor, plus block, heads, crank, don't forget fluids.....= more than 200 lbs if I read you right.

Then add the (possible) transmission in the center section...

JR from Jax might be able to shed some light on this subject. He raced go carts -- light weight engines, but not w/ the HP required to push a 1000-1500 lb. boat through water.

Just my .02

stan merck
05-14-2001, 08:47 PM
I HEARD AROUND 520 FOR THE 225. A GUY AT WORK PUT A 115 4STROKE ON HIS BOAT IN PLACE OF A V4 115 YAM 2 STROKE. HERES THE SPECS, WEIGHS APROX 20 LBS MORE THAN V4,RUNS EXACT SAME TOP SPEED,LITTLE SLOWER ACCEL, BUT TWICE THE FUEL ECONOMY.

Dewey
05-15-2001, 08:28 AM
I have to throw my .02 cents in here. I work in the environmental field, but as an advocate for the businesses. I sat in on a presentation from The California Air Resources Board (CARB) just before the Lake Tahoe ban. Some of the B.S. figures they were giving the public were rediculous. They said all 2 strokes (outboard and PWC) were gross polluters and they were the most inefficient engines out. They claimed their scientific research showed that 70% of the total volume of fuel consumed by a two stroke ended up in the water as unburned waste. They showed pictures of oil slicks behind boats and PWCs. It was a total smear campaign and was total crap. The unfortunate part was that most of the people in the auditorium ate it up.

I asked them why they were beating us up for the MTBE crisis when they are the ones that shoved that down our throats in the first place. They didn't do their homework on the aquatic toxicity of the stuff, and then rather than admit they made a mistake, they tried to portray it as a 2 stroke problem.

I also asked them how my outboard went just as fast, consumed half the fuel, and made half the noise that my big block powered boat did if it was so inefficient. I also stated that I have never had an oil slick behind my boat and asked them why they would intentionally mislead the general public just to try to get them on their side.

A few minutes later I was asked to leave for being "disruptive".

Bill

Instigator
05-15-2001, 05:47 PM
Very interesting post!!
I think they'd be hauling me out of that meeting in cuffs!!
It's amazing how far this **** has gone, what people believe, and where it's liable to stop!!
Bought my motors new in '99 thinking it may be the beginning of the end!!
See Yah,
Gary

Dewey
05-15-2001, 06:58 PM
As far as where it is going to stop? Who knows? It depends on who gets a wild hair and decides they want to mess with us again. Right now it seems the land grabs and public access issues are at the forefront, but we don't want to get lured into a false sense of security.

It is only a matter of time. The eco-nazis are just as extreme about taking away the things we love as we are about keeping them. It will be a bitter battle and the only way we will win is to get all of us (fisherman, drag racers, water skiers, recreational, PWC users :rolleyes:) everyone that enjoys the water to stick together and fight these people. They have the money and a head start in their organization, but we will never give in.

Bill

Liqui-Fly
05-18-2001, 03:47 PM
People that don't know chit about nothing always seem to have the biggest voice. Geez Dewey, you didn't want them to back what they were saying with facts did ya? How insulting! There was a study done at Cornell University last year and to make a long story short; the less people knew the more sure of themselves they tended to be. Me personally, 4-stroke or 2-stroke I don't care as long as it kicks ass. If there is one thing I've learned about environ"mental"ists it is that they need to get FN jobs and leave those of us that do alone. LF