E-TEC beats out Verado?

[JW]

This month's Bass and Walleye tested a 225 E-TEC 'Rude. At the very end of the article, they mention that the motor was rigged on the same boat they tested the Verado on, and the E-TEC got better top end numbers AND fuel mileage........

OH OH! :eek:

[FrenchPhil]

2 strokes rock !!!

[Dukeofchippewa]

wins. :D :D

[Forkin' Crazy]

Originally posted by FrenchPhil
2 strokes rock !!!

Bombardier two strocks rock!!!!

[Rickracer]

It is in the beginning of it's deployment, but the possiblilities are amazing. :cool:

[Dukeofchippewa]

According to the Bass and Walleye article:
The E-TEC 225 HO at 73.3 mph burned 21.9 gph for an outstanding 3.4 miles per gallon.

The 250 Mercury Verado had a top speed of 71.8 on the same boat and got 2.6 miles per gallon.

At cruise the Verado was slightly better at 4.3 mpg vs. E-TEC 4.1 mpg.

At 1000 rpm, the E-TEC burned only 0.9 gallons per hour and got 6.1 mpg economy, great for trolling. Usually the direct injected Evinrudes burn about 0.3 gallons per hour at 650 rpm idle, which means it takes 3 hours and 20 minutes to consume 1 gallon of gasoline. Most fuel flow testers cannot read that low, that is why you do not see idle fuel consumption in most magazine tests of the Evinrudes

[stvmike24]

I wish they were a little lighter..

[Wolverine]

Bombardier builds quality products and is sure to up the ante in the boating industry. If they decide to ever get into the high performance segment, Mercury better look out! The competition will be a win - win situation for everyone.

[JW]

Wonder if both motors were factory 'tweaked' or production spec stock..........................

[Laker]

Evinrude WINS!
Again!

[Rickracer]

...the Merc lovers out there might not like this, but the competition is bound to be good for everyone. When the rivalry gets hot~n~heavy, pencils get sharpened, R&D takes on a sense of urgency, and we the buying public are the beneficiaries. GO BOM !!!! :cool:

[RYGUS]

I have my whole but brief life been with merc motors and they were always fast and good for my pocket with the gas money except for this one evinrude i had and it was the bomb.

[Massbasser]

Any info, rumors or inside info on a 250 H.O.? Will the MAD mid for the Sportmaster work with the new Etecs?

[yellowallison]

According to the Bass and Walleye article:

I sure hope yu don't belive anything yu read in B&W!
:o

[Dukeofchippewa]

:p :p

[sho305]

Verado 635lb, what is Etec?

I like 2 strokes, can't wait to see what they do! It has been said for a long time the Etec system was a good one, maybe with the company being settled now they will finally get them out here.

All I have seen is mixed reviews on the HPDI 300 yami, like not quite 300hp. It is 540lbs. Wish S&F could do a comparo when they are all available. Hydrostream was posting on a new 2.5XS also.

[JWTjr.]

To address the concerns:

1) Yellowallison, if you don't like the results printed in B&WB, then don't read it. I can't make you believe the results. But as I have stated on the record and off, many many times, the results are real, and as-recorded, the day of the subject test. No bull, no baloney. I'm sorry that you don't believe them. That's your opinion, unlike the test results which are facts. As you know, opinions are a lot like a$$hole$---everyone has theirs, and they all stink.

2) As for comparing the 2.5xs to a 225 H.O. E-Tec, we have just such a test in the works for early winter. We will include the Yamaha VMax 225 HPDI as well. The subject test hulls are Bullet 20XDs, so the speeds should be decent.

JWTjr.

[sho305]

Best I can find the Etec is somewhat different technology than the Optimax that was supposedly to have more promise in the end (The etec was, when they got it going) as far as DI systems. Do they not have a starter like I heard? To be fair it has taken Merc some years to intro the first "hipo" Opti, the 2.5XS. IMO they should compare standard Opti to standard Etec. We don't like to admit it here, but they are just fishing motors excepting the 2.5XS that so far I have heard noboby has fully broken one in yet.

To compare from listed lbs on their sites:
Yami 4 stroke 225-200 583lbs
Vmax 300 hpdi 540
Verado 4 stroke 635
300x 480
opti 250 505
Merc efi 250 479
Merc 280 412
Honda 4 stroke V6 610
Etec 515(?)

[Dukeofchippewa]

V4

Evinrude E100 100 Electric Start Remote Steer* Standard 369 lbs
Evinrude E115 110 Electric Start Remote Steer Standard 369-375 lbs
V6

Evinrude E135 135 Electric Start Remote Steer Standard 419-427 lbs
Evinrude E150 150 Electric Start Remote Steer Standard 419-427 lbs
Evinrude E150 H.O. 150** Electric Start Remote Steer Standard 419 lbs
Evinrude E175 175 Electric Start Remote Steer Standard 419-427 lbs
Evinrude E200 200 Electric Start Remote Steer Standard 524-532 lbs
Evinrude E200 H.O. 200** Electric Start Remote Steer Standard 517 lbs
Evinrude E225 225 Electric Start Remote Steer Standard 524-538 lbs
Evinrude E225 H.O. 225** Electric Start Remote Steer Standard 517-524 lbs
Evinrude E250 250 Electric Start Remote Steer Standard 524-538 lbs

[1BadAction]

Originally posted by JWTjr.
To address the concerns:

2) As for comparing the 2.5xs to a 225 H.O. E-Tec, we have just such a test in the works for early winter. We will include the Yamaha VMax 225 HPDI as well. The subject test hulls are Bullet 20XDs, so the speeds should be decent.

JWTjr.

Excellent

[sho305]

SMITHERS! Bring me the Etec....:D

[Markus]

Guys, be aware of one thing regarding B&WB engine shoot-outs:

Even though they run the engines on the same hulls, they use different propellers, since they have this "only use propellers sold by engine manufacturer" rule. Frequently, the top-end differences between engines in their shoot-outs are smaller than what you typically get when playing around with different propellers.

[Markus]

1BadStream wrote:


e-tec is something like 515 lbs... wow an evenrude 2-stroke that is pig heavy? NOOOOOO of course they compare it to a 4stroke that is .7L in displacement smaller, where in all reality they shouldnt even compare a 2-stroke to a 4. which by the way the verados redline is 400+ rpm more than the e-tec. A merc that Revs faster and higher than an omc design- ive never seen that before


Exactly. The holy Verado should only be compared to other force-fed 4-strokes of which there are exactly 0 in the market. Thereby, we will be sure that the Verado always beats all competing engines. ;)

[1BadAction]

naa just compare it to the other 4 strokes, like the big v6 hondas...:D ;)

[sho305]

A motor is a motor IMO, in stock types anyway. Unless one lasts considerably longer than another, takes significantly different amount of fuel/etc.

[lilabner]

Maybe you could get Dan Rather and CBS to forge some numbers on this...

[yellowallison]

1) Yellowallison, if you don't like the results printed in B&WB, then don't read it....

Yea i did ... many many folks I know did about 2-3 yrs ago!

I can't make you believe the results................. No .. but B&W did provide me with quite a few good yrs of sittin on the K-mode laughs.

But as I have stated on the record and off, many many times, the results are real, and as-recorded, the day of the subject test. No bull, no baloney................ Question? Is B&W owned by John Keerry?? Just curious?


I'm sorry that you ( many many others) don't believe them.

That's your opinion, unlike the test results which are facts................... No when I and othrs got the same equipment that B&W is testing sittin out in the garage and we read about how it does that-this in a B&W test .. and we go no heck it don't! Thaz when B&W makes for sum good K-mode sittin laughs...

As you know, opinions are a lot like a$$hole$---everyone has the... irs, and they all stink......

Wow! seems to me you be really defensive.. Maybe you heard some this same stuff before!!!!!!

I be nice and not mention HotBOAT!!! and how long yu told people to send their stuff to ole so so(yu knwo who) when the guy was crook and nuthin but a parts swapper!

Have a nice day!

I YeallarAllsion approve of this message!

[1BadAction]

:eek:

[Skittles]

:eek: :eek:

[Dukeofchippewa]

Really

[JWTjr.]

Yellow...

I'm sorry, I forgot...as someone who frequents internet sites and poses as an "expert", and who counts on this...

"No when I and othrs got the same equipment that B&W is testing sittin out in the garage and we read about how it does that-this in a B&W test .. and we go no heck it don't!"

for his baseline in disproving B&WB tests, well---that trumps anything I've got!

Please...

:rolleyes:

Defensive? Not really...but I, as would anyone, take umbrage to your assumption that we somehow fake our test results. I take a lot of pride in my work at B&WB.

Bring up Hot Boat? Go ahead...I have nothing to hide there. Who were you trying to "mention--not mention"? Gene Treichel? Dean Engler? Does recommending Gene's work somehow discredit me because he took too long on engine jobs for his customers? Again, please...

:rolleyes:

Go back to your "K-mode"...it's clear you do your best work there.

JWTjr.

[E-tec1]

This is only the beginning guys. The ETEC absolutely rocks..........stay tuned!

[Wolverine]

Both of the local marinas near me have been running the smaller ETEC motors on the pontoons they sell. They claim that the performance is unsurpassed by any of the 4 strokes that they sell, they're quiet and smoke is almost non-existent. They can't keep them in stock. Which is better - 2 or 4 stroke - is a matter of preference and will be debated for some time to come. As far as I'm concerned, 225 hp is 225hp, whether it's produced by a 2 or 4 stroke. They should be directly compared.

[sosmerc]

E N G I N E P E R F O R M A N C E T E S T
210 Outrage: Mercury 175 OptiMax
Model: 210 Outrage
Hull #: BWCE0501G102
Engine: Mercury 175 OptiMax
Horsepower: 175
Gear Ratio: 1.87:1
Prop: 15-1/2 x 17 Mirage
Fuel Capacity: 95 gallons
Notable Options: none
Test Date: July 23, 2001
Weight Summary
Dry Weight: 3,130 lbs
Fuel: 95 gallons
Water: 20 gallons
Test Gear: 0 lbs
Personnel: 370 lbs
Test Weight: 4,251 lbs
Water Conditions: N/A
Weather Conditions: N/A
Notes: 1) Speed determined by GPS, Fuel consumption based on total usage by the engines. MPG computed from MPH & GPH. Range based on 90% of total fuel capacity.
2) The performance data shown above should be considered valid only for the specific boat whose serial number is shown and on the date this test was performed. Many factors may
affect actual performance of this boat or of similar boats. Such factors include, but are not limited to, installation of certain options such as tuna towers and hard tops, vessel loading
and trim, weather and sea conditions, engine condition, propeller condition, and hull bottom condition. Boston Whaler makes no guarantee whatsoever that this performance will be
repeated on this boat at a later date or at any time on a similarly equipped boat.
Testing
Information
Noise
RPM mph knots gph mpg nmpg range (mi) dB(A)
Idle 600 3.3 2.9 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
1000 5.6 4.9 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
1500 6.8 5.9 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
2000 8.2 7.1 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
2500 8.8 7.6 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
2750 9.8 8.5 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
3000 15.3 13.3 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
3250 23.2 20.1 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
3500 26.6 23.1 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
4000 29.9 26.0 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
4500 34.5 30.0 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
5000 38.3 33.3 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
5500 43.7 37.9 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
WOT 5500 43.7 37.9 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
Acceleration: time to plane 6.0 secs
Idle - 30 mph 7.8 secs
Speed Fuel Consumption
0
10
20
30
40
50
60
0 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500
RPM
MPH,GPH
0.00
1.00
2.00
3.00
4.00
5.00
6.00
MPG
mph
gph
mpg
® ® ®
E N G I N E P E R F O R M A N C E T E S T
210 Outrage: Mercury 225 FourStroke
Model: 210 Outrage
Hull #: BWCE1761L102
Engine: Mercury 225 FourStroke
Horsepower: 225
Gear Ratio: 2.00:1
Prop: 14-1/2 x 19 Vengeance
Fuel Capacity: 95 gallons
Notable Options: none
Test Date: June 12, 2002
Weight Summary
Dry Weight: 3,300 lbs
Fuel: 95 gallons
Water: 0 gallons
Test Gear: 0 lbs
Personnel: 370 lbs
Test Weight: 4,254 lbs
Water Conditions: 80ºF
Weather Conditions: 89ºF
Notes: 1) Speed determined by GPS, Fuel consumption based on total usage by the engines. MPG computed from MPH & GPH. Range based on 90% of total fuel capacity.
2) The performance data shown above should be considered valid only for the specific boat whose serial number is shown and on the date this test was performed. Many factors may
affect actual performance of this boat or of similar boats. Such factors include, but are not limited to, installation of certain options such as tuna towers and hard tops, vessel loading
and trim, weather and sea conditions, engine condition, propeller condition, and hull bottom condition. Boston Whaler makes no guarantee whatsoever that this performance will be
repeated on this boat at a later date or at any time on a similarly equipped boat.
Testing
Information
Noise
RPM mph knots gph mpg nmpg range (mi) dB(A)
Idle 600 3.0 2.6 N/A N/A N/A N/A 56
1000 4.4 3.8 N/A N/A N/A N/A 61
1500 6.5 5.6 N/A N/A N/A N/A 66
2000 7.8 6.8 N/A N/A N/A N/A 72
2500 8.7 7.6 N/A N/A N/A N/A 74
2750 10.3 8.9 N/A N/A N/A N/A 79
3000 18.1 15.7 N/A N/A N/A N/A 83
3250 22.2 19.3 N/A N/A N/A N/A 85
3500 26.0 22.6 N/A N/A N/A N/A 86
4000 31.3 27.2 N/A N/A N/A N/A 88
4500 36.9 32.0 N/A N/A N/A N/A 92
5000 40.8 35.4 N/A N/A N/A N/A 93
5500 44.8 38.9 N/A N/A N/A N/A 95
WOT 6000 49.5 43.0 N/A N/A N/A N/A 98
Acceleration: time to plane 5.1 secs
Idle - 30 mph 9.3 secs
Speed Fuel Consumption
0
10
20
30
40
50
60
0 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500
RPM
MPH,GPH
0.00
1.00
2.00
3.00
4.00
5.00
6.00
MPG
mph
gph
mpg
® ®
E N G I N E P E R F O R M A N C E T E S T
210 Outrage: Mercury 200 OptiMax
Model: 210 Outrage
Hull #: BWCE0501G102
Engine: Mercury 200 OptiMax
Horsepower: 200
Gear Ratio: 1.75:1
Prop: 15-1/2 x 17 Mirage
Fuel Capacity: 95 gallons
Notable Options: none
Test Date: Sept. 18, 2001
Weight Summary
Dry Weight: 3,200 lbs
Fuel: 71 gallons
Water: 10 gallons
Test Gear: 0 lbs
Personnel: 370 lbs
Test Weight: 4,090 lbs
Water Conditions: 80ºF
Weather Conditions: 85ºF
Notes: 1) Speed determined by GPS, Fuel consumption based on total usage by the engines. MPG computed from MPH & GPH. Range based on 90% of total fuel capacity.
2) The performance data shown above should be considered valid only for the specific boat whose serial number is shown and on the date this test was performed. Many factors may
affect actual performance of this boat or of similar boats. Such factors include, but are not limited to, installation of certain options such as tuna towers and hard tops, vessel loading
and trim, weather and sea conditions, engine condition, propeller condition, and hull bottom condition. Boston Whaler makes no guarantee whatsoever that this performance will be
repeated on this boat at a later date or at any time on a similarly equipped boat.
Testing
Information
Noise
RPM mph knots gph mpg nmpg range (mi) dB(A)
Idle 600 2.8 2.4 0.3 9.33 8.11 798 68
1000 5.0 4.3 0.7 7.14 6.20 611 77
1500 7.2 6.3 1.6 4.50 3.91 385 76
2000 8.3 7.2 3.0 2.77 2.40 237 82
2500 9.4 8.2 5.2 1.81 1.57 155 80
2750 10.4 9.0 6.0 1.73 1.51 148 83
3000 13.5 11.7 6.2 2.18 1.89 186 83
3250 19.0 16.5 6.3 3.02 2.62 258 84
3500 25.4 22.1 7.0 3.63 3.15 310 89
4000 32.0 27.8 9.4 3.40 2.96 291 90
4500 36.1 31.3 12.0 3.01 2.61 257 90
5000 40.1 34.8 15.5 2.59 2.25 221 93
5500 44.6 38.7 19.3 2.31 2.01 198 95
WOT 5700 48.1 41.8 18.6 2.59 2.25 221 95
Acceleration: time to plane 4.4 secs
Idle - 30 mph 6.9 secs
Speed Fuel Consumption
0
10
20
30
40
50
60
0 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500
RPM
MPH,GPH
0.00
1.00
2.00
3.00
4.00
5.00
6.00
MPG
mph
gph
mpg
® ® ®
E N G I N E P E R F O R M A N C E T E S T
210 Outrage: Mercury 200 Verado
Model: 210 Outrage
Hull #: BWCE8039D404
Engine: Mercury 200 Verado
Horsepower: 200
Gear Ratio: 1.846:1
Prop: 14-5/8 x 17 Rev 4
Fuel Capacity: 95 gallons
Notable Options: none
Test Date: May 17, 2004
Weight Summary
Dry Weight: 3,400 lbs
Fuel: 34 gallons
Water: 0 gallons
Test Gear: 0 lbs
Personnel: 370 lbs
Test Weight: 3,979 lbs
Water Conditions: 80ºF
Weather Conditions: 82ºF
Notes: 1) Speed determined by GPS, Fuel consumption based on total usage by the engines. MPG computed from MPH & GPH. Range based on 90% of total fuel capacity.
2) The performance data shown above should be considered valid only for the specific boat whose serial number is shown and on the date this test was performed. Many factors may
affect actual performance of this boat or of similar boats. Such factors include, but are not limited to, installation of certain options such as tuna towers and hard tops, vessel loading
and trim, weather and sea conditions, engine condition, propeller condition, and hull bottom condition. Boston Whaler makes no guarantee whatsoever that this performance will be
repeated on this boat at a later date or at any time on a similarly equipped boat.
Testing
Information
Noise
RPM mph knots gph mpg nmpg range (mi) dB(A)
Idle 600 2.5 2.2 0.3 8.33 7.24 713 62
1000 4.8 4.2 0.8 6.00 5.21 513 64
1500 6.7 5.8 1.5 4.47 3.88 382 67
2000 8.0 6.9 2.5 3.20 2.78 274 72
2500 9.3 8.1 4.4 2.11 1.84 181 76
2750 14.2 12.3 5.1 2.78 2.42 238 78
3000 19.5 16.9 4.8 4.06 3.53 347 79
3250 23.0 20.0 5.9 3.90 3.39 333 79
3500 25.9 22.5 6.8 3.81 3.31 326 80
4000 30.3 26.3 8.5 3.56 3.10 305 81
4500 35.4 30.7 10.4 3.40 2.96 291 82
5000 40.0 34.7 14.0 2.86 2.48 244 84
5500 44.6 38.7 17.7 2.52 2.19 215 86
6000 48.0 41.7 21.5 2.23 1.94 191 90
WOT 6100 48.4 42.0 21.6 2.24 1.95 192 91
Acceleration: time to plane 3.3 secs
Idle - 30 mph 8 0 secs
Speed Fuel Consumption
0
10
20
30
40
50
60
0 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500
RPM
MPH,GPH
0.00
1.00
2.00
3.00
4.00
5.00
6.00
MPG
mph
gph
mpg
®
E N G I N E P E R F O R M A N C E T E S T
210 Outrage: Engine Comparison Graph
210 Outrage - Engine Comparison Graph
0
10
20
30
40
50
60
0 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500
RPM
MPH
Mercury 175 Optimax
Mercury 200 Optimax
Mercury 200 Verado
Mercury 225 4-stroke
®
Notes: 1) Speed determined by GPS, Fuel consumption based on total usage by the engines. MPG computed from MPH & GPH. Range based on 90% of total fuel capacity.
2) The performance data shown above should be considered valid only for the specific boat whose serial number is shown and on the date this test was performed. Many factors may
affect actual performance of this boat or of similar boats. Such factors include, but are not limited to, installation of certain options such as tuna towers and hard tops, vessel loading
and trim, weather and sea conditions, engine condition, propeller condition, and hull bottom condition. Boston Whaler makes no guarantee whatsoever that this performance will be
repeated on this boat at a later date or at any time on a similarly equipped boat.

[sosmerc]

Sorry, I thought this was going to show up as a graph, like it does on the Boston Whaler website. There you can pick a model, and then see how various different "Merc" engines performed on that hull.

I am surprised at how close these engines perform in some cases.

(the Verado is sure a thirsty beast at Wide Open!!:D )

[MercNuts]

I have not been able to use the computer for a time because I had to go up to Birmingham and have my back done wiht those titanium plates and screws and I cannot sit for long these days but I have kept up with reading here with my granddaughters laptop computer.

All of this magazine comments has got me to where I want to say some things. I red Hotboat for a lot of years and at one time I counted I think 18 out of 20 months strate that the G Force people were mentioned in the outboard technical column. There was only 3 or 4 letters each month and I always thought it was strange that so many people who wrote in always had etiher G Force parts or engine work done by them at least one every month. I also saw that during this entire time that G Force was running a small ad in the back of the book. Some time later that ad quit running and all of those G Force questions and comments disappeared from the techical column. I figured from this group of events that either some of those questions was just made up by the magazine to fill space and give their advertiser a bump or the person doing the writting had some kind of relationship with the G Force people or maybe they gave some preferred treatment to people who wrote with a questoin and had G Force in it. It always seemed odd that they would mention them every month and now it seems odder that with all of the outboard people here that the name almost does not ever come up.

I have also come to the opinion that most magazine test articles are not much more than paid advertising for the sponsors. Modification type parts do always seem to have good results in the magazines that are not the same when somebody gets thme home. That is one thing that is a lot better about this website and some others as well. When a part does not do what it is claimed to do there is quick criticism from a lot of people who have tried it already and know what it will and will not do and there is no preassure from people buying ads. There have been cases right here where someone furnished something that did not help anything and that is what was said about it. I do not think I ever saw that in a magazine.

[sho305]

Thirsty? I wondered. I knew two guys with the same 28' boat with twin BBCs. They ran the same top speed on most days. One had stock Merc 525 blowers and the other cams/heads/headers/intake/etc. The blowers had more mid range punch, and they certainly took more gas on trips they took together...running side by side.

[1BadAction]

if you are trying to get good gas mileage out of a motor, you dont run the thing WFO :rolleyes: besides, more power means more air/fuel going into the engine. :D

[Markus]

Actually, any textbook on combustion engine design will tell you that a smaller, overcharged engine will consume more fuel at wide-open throttle than a bigger engine that is naturally aspirated, so the Verado's fuel consumption at WOT is not surprising.

However, the smaller, overcharged engine will consume less fuel at lower loads.

[1BadAction]

Originally posted by Markus
Actually, any textbook on combustion engine design will tell you that a smaller, overcharged engine will consume more fuel at wide-open throttle than a bigger engine that is naturally aspirated, so the Verado's fuel consumption at WOT is not surprising.

However, the smaller, overcharged engine will consume less fuel at lower loads.

thats what i said... like the honduh s2000 with its 24 mpg highway, where a zo6 gets 28mpg highway, with an engine that is more than 2 times the displacement AND HP.

[Markus]

Going back to the original topic of this thread:

I just wasted some time at one of the bass boards. Someone there had spoken the Merc rep who drove the boat in question. The Merc guy claimed that they were 2 people in the boat, the other was weighing 300+ lbs, that there were some big waves, etc.

I.e. it was not an apples to apples comparison

[Massbasser]

Waves maybe, but they report all their numbers with two in the boat, so that don't mean much.

[1BadAction]

Originally posted by Markus
Going back to the original topic of this thread:

I just wasted some time at one of the bass boards. Someone there had spoken the Merc rep who drove the boat in question. The Merc guy claimed that they were 2 people in the boat, the other was weighing 300+ lbs, that there were some big waves, etc.

I.e. it was not an apples to apples comparison

its not an apples to apples unless its done on the same day, with the same hull, and the same 2 people in the boat...

[Markus]

its not an apples to apples unless its done on the same day, with the same hull, and the same 2 people in the boat...

... and the same prop

[ghind]

It is all well and good to keep most conditions the same eg
water, temperature, boat, crew weight etc but the setup should be optomised for testing.

I know this is a lot harder but we want to know what a motor will really do.

If you are comparing top speed, the rule should be the best available setup including prop. I'd probably say that custom props shouldn't be used as most people might not have easy access to the best prop guys but prop choice can make more difference than the top end differences noted in these tests.

I have read some of these tests and where they make direct comparisons on fuel consumption, plaining revs, speed at revs etc and you can easily see that some of it can be accounted for in prop choice. For example, the 250hp DI two stroke test.

I'd love to see some dyno testing. With fuel consumption figures for each point included.

This may help show how much of the difference is setup and how much is really HP.

[Markus]

Ghind, that is precisely my point.

I have discussed it on these forums with JWTjr, but he thinks the current policy of only using props sold by the company is the correct one. I tend to disagree... :(

[INXS]

Someone, I believe, said on the Checkmate site that they were able to test allot of props on their Starflite and that the chopper was the fastest, though it didn't handle as well as others. I called Merc and asked if the chopper would be a good choice for my Starflite and they said the trophy would be the first choice followed by the tempest. I just wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that I mentioned that i also was interested in getting the prop blueprinted? I believe the chopper blades come allready thinned???

[1BadAction]

i have always had EXCELLENT results with full blade choppers on heavy bass boats. My 17' logans run basser ran 72mph with a 26 chopper and a 79 2.0 150. AND the holeshot was quicker than a 25 laser... the through hubs on that particular setup always seemed slow out of the hole, but to make them bite right the motor had to be 3" lower than with the chopper. chopper pulled 12 psi at WFO and was about 2" below pad with no nosecone :D

[INXS]

Originally posted by 1BadStream
i have always had EXCELLENT results with full blade choppers on heavy bass boats. My 17' logans run basser ran 72mph with a 26 chopper and a 79 2.0 150. AND the holeshot was quicker than a 25 laser... the through hubs on that particular setup always seemed slow out of the hole, but to make them bite right the motor had to be 3" lower than with the chopper. chopper pulled 12 psi at WFO and was about 2" below pad with no nosecone :D

I found the post: http://checkmate-boats.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=8626072361&f=8206095561&m=713108887

Read what Heavy Duty posted. I Also heard some people on Bass Boat Central say they find them to work the best!

[skip merck]

Back to the E-tec test in Bass and Walleye something doesnt add up. 5600 rpm with a 26 Raker and a 1.85 gear ratio = 73.7 mph? Thats like 1% slip, not possible. It must have turned more rpm than that. What they list at 5500 rpm seems about right though 67.9 mph. Really the E-tec's numbers (speed and fuel) look just like a direct inj 2 stroke eng should, nothing really special. All the direct inj engs beat out the Verado. Same thing with the smaller E-tecs the numbers just look average. I think it comes down to which eng is going to have the least problems.

[sosmerc]

"I think it comes down to which eng is going to have the least problems."

That's a very significant statement and I agree completely. While I have not been particularly impressed with the 4 strokes from the standpoint of speed and performance, I rarely hear about any problems and my customers that have 4 strokes really like them.

I will be watching with great interest the progress of Verado.
But in the meantime, I hope Merc continues to incorporate more Optimax models into the line.

[JWTjr.]

To answer:

1) In B&WB tests, prop choice is not mine. The manufacturers choose the propeller they wish to run in the final test. I can make recommendations, but in the end it's the manufacturers' choice. It is their engine, their boat, I simply record the numbers and drive the boat. If the manufacturer chooses to run a big-blade Chopper because they feel it runs best then that's what they run.

1Badstream, we're running a 225 Shoot-Out in November on Bullet boats. I'll be sure to advise all three engine builders, as well as the hull manufacturer, that they should all run Choppers because you--an expert who has spent a lot of time and money unsuccessfully trying to make a HydroStream run--say so.


2) In our engine shootouts, we have the engine manufacturers stick to a propeller of their own manufacture because it shows what the entire package can do, not the engine alone. The prop is part of the engine builder's arsenal, and showing the best engine/prop combo available from each builder is part of the test. It also points out who can build propellers as well as engines. Sticking to one prop would not be exactly "equal" either, as gearcase differences can make one prop work better or worse as well.
I would love to have each engine builder run any and every prop they choose as long as it is readily available to the public--but that is not always the case, and there is nver enough time to accomplish that. So we stick to the manufacturer's propellers.

3) As for the "legend in my own mind" comment, I'll take that for what it is--the rantings of a frustrated "performance boater" who's clearly more at home with a keyboard than behind the wheel of a performance boat. 1Bad, good luck with your next project boat. I'm sure it can't go any worse than your last.

JWTjr.

[Markus]

2) In our engine shootouts, we have the engine manufacturers stick to a propeller of their own manufacture because it shows what the entire package can do, not the engine alone. The prop is part of the engine builder's arsenal, and showing the best engine/prop combo available from each builder is part of the test. It also points out who can build propellers as well as engines. Sticking to one prop would not be exactly "equal" either, as gearcase differences can make one prop work better or worse as well.

John, I understand the logic, but the effect of that is that it is impossible to see what the engine's performance is since you cannot tell what is engine and what is propeller. And I think your readers are primarily interested in engine performance. Swapping propellers is a lot cheaper and easier than swapping engines.

In addition, I think that is an unnecessary constraint. Boaters are not forced to use OEM propellers. As a matter of fact, many do not. And V6 engines are sold without propellers anyway.

Therefore, I think you should use a standard set of common propellers that are used in all engine tests. If a particular gearcase design works poorly with those propellers, it is only fair that it is reflected in the test results, because after all, that is what buyers of that engine will experience.

Further, it is not necessary that engine manufacturers offer customers the ultimate propeller for every hull, since there are a number of small independent propeller manufacturers that already provide ample choice for boaters

In the long run, if the OEMs want to be on equal footing in the shoot-outs, everyone will have to create something equivalent to Mercury's so-called Lab and start competing with the specialist propeller companies. The result of that would be devastating for the small guys like Mazco and Hoss.

[sho305]

I agree Markus, they should have the best prop if even to show what the difference is. Maybe someone will try to include 1 or 2 alternate props that work well for speed/handling/etc. They can run with the stocker, then do a quicky with the alternate performance prop that the tester or manufacturer can choose. While a speed prop may be faster, maybe it holeshots poorly so you could not ski it; but then some buyers may want that setup. One speed test should not be that hard given todays gps/etc. I still understand the time issue, so I'm not counting on new tests to do that in all fairness. At least then you might know there is a 2mph or a 8mph difference in a stock to speed prop for example.

[1BadAction]

Originally posted by JWTjr.
1Badstream, we're running a 225 Shoot-Out in November on Bullet boats. I'll be sure to advise all three engine builders, as well as the hull manufacturer, that they should all run Choppers because you--an expert who has spent a lot of time and money unsuccessfully trying to make a HydroStream run--say so.

unsuccessful? i was faster with a regular EFI 150 horse merc than those 2 boats were. I just said they should TRY choppers.

I think someone just poked some holes in the numbers in your rag "5600 rpm with a 26 Raker and a 1.85 gear ratio = 73.7 mph? Thats like 1% slip, not possible." so is that the case? sounds like a damn efficient hull to have 1% slip. :D

Glad that a "frustrated performance boater" like me could make your day. Remember the "splash" comment you made before i said a word to you? yeah, have a nice day

[sosmerc]

Perhaps these tests should also include an independently conducted dyno test on each motor with accompanying rpm/torque graphs so we can get an idea how the engines stack up to each other....removing the variables such as hull differences, prop performance, setup, etc.:D

[us1ss]

I think that was done with the 300 test and the faithful damn sure didn't like that either! It's a no win test unless the Merc outshines all rivals!
I heard Mercury was so unhappy with the Verado vs ETEC test that they wanted it done again and the results were even further apart!

[1BadAction]

Originally posted by JWTjr.
What a great boat. The Ventura was always the best Stream, no other model even came close.

Wasn't cool to splash it, I guess in terms of splashing fast boats Action was way ahead of their time (they copied the Ventura in 1977, I think).

JWTjr.

oh, thats why i busted his balls, for those who didnt know... :D

[Ray Leach]

I'm just curious " one bad stream" why would Mercury not use the Chopper if they can use any prop that Mercury manufacters in the B@WB tests? You claim it would yeild the best results but yet the Merc reps choose not to run it.

[1BadAction]

i didnt claim it WOULD be the best, I just said It would be an excellent one to try. on my bassboats, and guys who run 35 miles to catch fish in a tournament, like the choppers and srx's better than through hubs because of the better performance.

dont get your panties in a twist, its just a website with opinions and dock racing.

[Ray Leach]

So you don't think Mercury has tried that prop on that application? You make it seem like B@WB tells Merc that they can't use it. They won't let Yamaha use it or Bomb. use it because like John said they don't make it but Merc can run their best wheel yet they choose not to run it. Wonder why?

Now, as far as my panties, I did'nt think I was rude or insulting to you, I simply asked a question which by your response was a fair one. Stream you will never matter to me so save your internet time.(now thats an insult, see the difference.)

[Firestarter]

Onebad, where on earth are you getting your information?, and what if any practical knowledge do you have?. Until you have built, rigged and run all the boats these guys have maybe you should keep your uninformed mouth shut. You are making a fool of yourself!.

I am am Merc guy, and I am converting, I have friends that are mercury poster children ( in there catalogs ) and they are ALL E-Tec fans..... because they will perform better than anything out there in our application. DEAL WITH IT.

RT

[Scream And Fly]

I'm still wondering how the E-Tec fares against an equal horsepower OptiMax. That would have been the best comparison, in my opinion.

I just might find out for myself soon, since we're getting a new 2.5 OptiMax soon.

Greg

[Dukeofchippewa]

is as good as it looks, and pushes others to produce Low-Emission 2 stroke Outboard Engines to compete. Then the arguing can be done on the water. :)

[1BadAction]

merc has had "low emission 2 strokes" for years. and last time i checked the 2.5s turn 6800 rpm or better, and weigh 75lbs less than e-tecs in the same HP class... so which one would you run on a light boat?

[Dukeofchippewa]

stick $100 million into a 4 stroke? I'm not being a smart a$$, just curious.:confused:

[Firestarter]

The merc Opti motors are TURDS.... end of story.

[1BadAction]

big boats and the type of guys who "gotta have a 4-stroke" So merc makes both motors...

while were at it, how about we compare a verado to a 225 bomb 4 stroke? :D

[Ray Leach]

I think that the 225 shoot-out in November that JWT was talking about earlier will be a good test. John, is this going to be a 225 two-stroke only test with Yamaha, Merc , and Bomb.?

[1BadAction]

Originally posted by Firewalker
The merc Opti motors are TURDS.... end of story.

yeah, but they win 24 hours of rouen and white nights races?

:rolleyes: so why are they turds? enlighten us to how worthless they are...

[Firestarter]

The 200 XS is an ok motor, but in endurance racing it is on a 12" mid with a speedmaster, it gets great economy. That helps A LOT.
The rest of the Opti motors ( with the exception if the new 2.5 ) are 3.0, fishing motors. They are TURDS, the OMC and Yamaha are better motors. ( Don't include the 250 XS as it is a handbuilt motor ). The optimax is far and away the worst motor in the new generation of "clean" motors as far as reliability is concerned.

What is your hard on for mercs?

RT

[BarryStrawn]

1BadStream - Didn't you recently post on another message board that your new job was at a boat manufacturer and you had rigged both an ETec and a Verado? Maybe you could add an Optimax to your list this evening and crank out an online article for everyone to enjoy.:o

[1BadAction]

your saying optis are turds, but, some of them arent, only the 3.0s are turds, but not the 3.0 250XS? Yet, the 2.5s are good, so the 150 and 175 which are 2.5s, are good? so basically you are saying only the 200 and the 225 motors are not good?

no hard on here, i would have an etec if i wanted a fishin motor that only turns 5700... and im sure if i had a 22' single OB fishin boat or a pontoon the verado would be nice too. But none of them are good for me, because they cant be modified.

what i really want is a omc F1 V6 :eek:

[JWTjr.]

Concerning weights, RPM, one vs. another, etc.:

We recently weighed a new 2005 2.5XS before running it on a Norris Craft bass boat. It weighed exactly 503 pounds with cowl, prop and oil--not exactly a lightweight. That's 3 pounds more than a 2005 300x weighed at our last 300 Shooutout. Although we didn't get to dyno test it, the 2.5XS produced enough power to run our test Norris Craft at 83 mph--exactly the same speed, within a few tenths, that a 2000-model 225 Pro Max did a few years ago in a similar test.

We will see what a comparable horsepower E-Tec (225 H.O.) weighs next month when we conduct our 225 Shootout.

The Verado, which according to specs weighs 630 lbs., weighed considerably more than that--but again, we included oil, fuel, propeller and steering (but did not include the boat-mounted pump).

We also recently tested a Verado vs. 250XS on the same boat (ProCraft 21'). The results will surprise many, I am sure. While I liked some traits of the Verado, I still like the two-stroke attitude of the 250XS.

1BadStream, to address you directly: You misread my post about your Action. That was never about you. It was a compliment about your choice of boats to restore. My post reflected my admiration for that hull design, be it on an Action or Ventura. I simply included my thoughts on Action's splashing it, about which I was crystal clear--it had nothing to do with you. Read it again.

To address the Verado vs. E-Tec story: Read the byline, folks. I didn't write it. Address your questions and concerns to the editor, Steve Quinlan, who conducted the tests and wrote the articles.

Finally, to address the propeller issue (Markus): I just spoke with my editor today, and we are amending our test "rules" to allow engine manufacturers participating in our shootouts to include/use any propeller that is currently available to the buying public. In addition, we will add extra time at the test site to allow each manufacturer to try the others' propellers. We will implement this new rule at the next test (225 Shootout).

JWTjr.

[1BadAction]

Originally posted by BarryStrawn
1BadStream - Didn't you recently post on another message board that your new job was at a boat manufacturer and you had rigged both an ETec and a Verado? Maybe you could add an Optimax to your list this evening and crank out an online article for everyone to enjoy.:o

Since you "asked". yep they needed a designer/draftsman, and i got lucky and picked up a job, not in rigging but i do get to go on water- tests a few times a week. Too bad its only 30 hours a week now that it is the "slow" season... (not really plugs, but pre-production stuff is what we work with). unfortunately optis have been around since 97 model year, and i only work with new stuff.

[BarryStrawn]

OK - But I thought Merc had some new Optimax models. So you might be working with those. I am sure everyone would enjoy reading some first hand reports from someone in your unique position.

[us1ss]

I probably have as much or more experience with EPA (green motors) racing than anyone. Granted, only 150's. The Evinrude will out run and out rev the Opti always. The Yami makes the most torque by far. Mercury supports the Supersport class but admits they can't compete against the Evinrude.

My first Evinrude turned 6250 rpm everytime out. sometimes the tach would read 6400rpm. (Gaffrig, I don't know why?) The Mercury I ran was supplied by Mercury for the class and would always turn 6050rpm, the rev limiter caused the boat to surge very bad. The Yamaha I run now turns 6150rpm and has a soft rev limiter which does not effect the attitude of the boat, the same as the Evinrude.

The exact same boat, propshaft height, boat weight, and propellor each motor runs completely different. Top speed goes to the Evinrude by over 2 mph. Accelleration goes to the Yami with the E-rude a close second. The Merc is 4 mph off and the acceleration is off by a solid boat length. However the Merc gets the best fuel economy.

The biggest thing to take from my info is the claimed rev limiter and the actual rev limiter are very different and you cannot compare them on paper.

p.s. using the often used and misused prop calculators my slippage is 3% to 4% always, with 4 blade drag wheels from Performance.

[ghind]

JWTjr

I have to say it is refreshing that you guys have taken on board the feedback re prop options and will be seeing what difference they make. I love your idea of trying the props supplied on each boat. It will be very interesting to compare what the different props do to each motor.

It will be great to have results which can be interpreted to the point that you can see what the motor does and not just what the combination of motor and prop does.

Please try to find the time to dyno them as well.

Greg

[Steve Reist]

John Tiger is an asset most of us around here
could benefit from. Calling him names and trying
to chase him off doesn't seem too smart. Next
thing you know, someone will say; Wonder why
he doesn't post anymore? It's happened before!
Regards, Steve

[Riverman]

1. Take a pull on the dyno with each motor and publish the horsepower and torque curves.

2. Weigh each motor along with all accessories required to make it operate and report honestly.

3. Report opinions on NVH (noise, vibration and harshness).

The first two are factual, the last objective.

IMHO, weight is the most important factor to consider in a HP boat. So much time is spent making boats light so they fly nice, it seems that the 4 stroke is not where hot boaters should be looking. I know most on here are Merc lovers but (as I say while ducking) I suspect hot boaters in the future will be moving to the White side. E-tec may be heavy now, but they will be easier to lighten than that big black oinker!!:eek:

[Rickracer]

John Tiger is a great asset to this board. Jim, get the chip off your shoulder buddy. Did you splash the Ventura? The Action is a great boat, that was the point. ;)

[Firestarter]

OneBad, the "racing" opti motors are OK ( with the exception of the new 2.5 XS which is a turkey ), the rest are TURDS.
Yamaha and Bombardier have far better products. As for the comment about the new E-Tec not reving, unlike the Opti system it is capable of up to 10000 RPM, this setup is going to be in sleds and PWC's, the chance of getting clean Hi-performance here is FAR FAR better than with anyone else. Bomer, has built there business on racing, lets all hope they continue.

JWTjr., Glad you are here with us, and I think that prop swap decision is a great idea!

RT

[blkmtrfan]

Originally posted by Firewalker
with the exception of the new 2.5 XS which is a turkey
RT

Rob, would you like to expound on thie one a little

[Firestarter]

Ya they put a soft motor under a BIG heavy cowling, with an even bigger heavy midsection, and added a NON-RATCHETING GEARCASE....... Merc is out of there minds.

How does that grab ya?

RT

[blkmtrfan]

Didn't know about the gearcase, what is up with that :confused:

I know the mid and cowl are from the 3.0 liters. Are all 3.0 liter gearcases like that :confused:

[Firestarter]

Ya

[Markus]

John W Tiger Junior wrote:


Finally, to address the propeller issue (Markus): I just spoke with my editor today, and we are amending our test "rules" to allow engine manufacturers participating in our shootouts to include/use any propeller that is currently available to the buying public. In addition, we will add extra time at the test site to allow each manufacturer to try the others' propellers. We will implement this new rule at the next test (225 Shootout).

John, that's great news. Tell your editor that I promise to continue to subscribe to B&WB for as long as you are writing in it.

Finally, let's hope that the engine manufacturers take advantage of the opportunity.

[1BadAction]

Originally posted by Rickracer
John Tiger is a great asset to this board. Jim, get the chip off your shoulder buddy. Did you splash the Ventura? The Action is a great boat, that was the point. ;)

Now that the comment was explained I dont have a chip. Before that explanation I did. Sorry...

besides, If 2-stroke outboards keep going the way they are, by the time I can afford one/want to buy one, all of them will be as heavy as the verado. The verado has done 1 thing for sure that nobody can argue, and that is raised the bar for a heavy outboard, now it seems like if its lighter than 600lbs that it is good :( It used to be that a 500lb outboard was heavy. so much for new 17ft performance boats...

[sho305]

Wow, talk about results:) thanks JWTjr.

Weight...makes me wonder if there is a market for a light 150hp. Seems like they could make one easily like half a 300x, another triple twin I6, even a V4 off a 250+DI; whatever but less weight than a full on V6. These 20' boats exclude a market that just is not going to pay more for a boat than a car and not fit a garage. Hipo V4s at ~150 prop hp seem to run real well on 17' hulls. IMHO, offerings are real poor at 150hp as a hefty V6 slug is too big for the size hull a 150hp needs, so sales figures might not be telling the whole story.

[Dukeofchippewa]

1973 Rude 135 cost around $1500 new, picked up a used Hustler set up for racing For $350. With Gentex, Prop, etc. ready to go racing for under $3000. 135 was very light and ran forever. Ran in the 70s. I would have had to lay a Etec or Verado inside the boat to keep it afloat. How far would $3000 get me today?

[blkmtrfan]

Originally posted by Dukeofchippewa
How far would $3000 get me today?

Maybe 25hp if you found a great deal ;)

[froggy]

When JWT, jr changed existing practice re: propellers, it showed great integrity and dedication to purpose. You now have a new lifetime subscriber!

Now if you will weight the hulls before you test, the boat buying public will have a true benchmark (I have heard---strong rumor only-- of some manufacturers laying up special B&WB test hulls).

Thanks for your dedication to the scientific method.

froggy

[DarthVMAX]

decision on the prop deal! Now can anyone tell me what B&WB issue the 300 shootout was in? It looks as if I have missed an issue:confused:

[JWTjr.]

Thanks for the kind replies.

We've been weighing the boats for some time now, I don't think I've conducted a test in the last ten years without weighing a boat (and trailer as well). I purchased a portable digital scale and load cell last year for weighing motors, and now we'll be weighing every outboard as well (for motor shootouts).

The 300 Shootout will be in the next issue, I think. Lots of controversy and politics around that one, for sure. It got delayed a month, but it will be published.

Again, thanks for reading, it is well appreciated.


JWTjr.

[JWTjr.]

Hey Ray, sorry I missed replying to your post.

The 225 Shootout will be two-stroke only. It's Mercury's new Pro Max 225 (3-liter), E-Tec 225 HO, and Yamaha 225 VMax HPDI. We are going to try to fit the 2.5XS in as well, even though it's not "officially" a 225.

As for dyno testing, we are going to try to include that wherever practical. As those who have used the Land & Sea Dyno-Mite know, it can be extremely accurate and repeatable, but it needs adequate water supply for both brake and outboard, and it's not always easy to set that up at remote test locations. Our aim is to dyno each of these 225s at our next test and publish the results. At our last test (250xs vs. 250 Verado) we ran out of time but did manage to run the 250xs on the dyno for two pulls. It produced 264 hp @ 6000 rpm.

JWTjr.

[sosmerc]

Thanks very much for your plans to include dyno testing whenever possible.
I have worked with the dyno-mite and can confirm that providing sufficient water is one of the key problems, thus I rarely use mine. I use my hydraulic dyno almost daily for testing and adjusting engines, but it will not adequately "hold a load" for any length of time on V-6 outboards.

(my complete Land and Sea dyno setup is for sale if anyone out there is interested:D )

[TD]

Originally posted by yellowallison
According to the Bass and Walleye article:

I sure hope yu don't belive anything yu read in B&W!

:o

Go away, you're an ass.:D

[JW]

B&WB and Family and Performance boating are the only two print mags I get now. B&WB for the outboard stuff, and F&PB for everything else. Too bad you don't write for F&PB any more. The tech articles in that mag really died after the first couple years.

[150aintenuff]

John:

I love the mag but I gotta rant a little, your company publish's 9 mags a year (not including other publications) your tests are used in trailerboats as well(sister pub) and your company can't SCHEDUAL ENOUGH times to complete the tests... PLEASE I DONT BUY IT.. the last issue had the least ammount of content I have ever seen... not counting the new models issue. I almost feel that there is a lack of motivation for the subscription dollars I spend a year.

Regardless of the boat tested and schedual the hull should be optimised for testing and that SHOULD be all done BEFORE (not your time) so all you guys have to do run the hulls for a few days but i have seen more and more tests where the editers are commenting on time lost changing setup durring tests that shouldnt have to, unless its a comparison test. the rescent bullet test at 104 was prime example, the editor added a picture of prop swaping in the water, that time could have been used to DYNO that rat and then us hp freeks could have known howmuch power that 300x really has...

as for Etec and Verado, what is up with MERC requesting new tests they had been beat twice by an engine that had less "cowling " HP and according to current laws less potential over Rating 247.5 to 275 hp if both engines are at the 10% overpower of the cowling... seems to me that like all the other 4 strokes mercury buys to resell under their name that IT isnt CUTTING the mustard.. Granted Merc actually Built the verado... but it was their first ever 4 stroke that they built, their small fourstrokes are built by nissan/ Tihatsu and their midrange by yahama(ironic considering that merc sued Yahama for engine dumping)and thet socalled 225 4 stroke is STILL A yahama painted black... IT even has a yahama Propshaft and can only use yahama props unless it has a hub adapter.:confused:

Personally i would like to see a magazine that is more tests ,tech and Q&A then advertising... and it seems that the advertising is overshadowing the magazine content....


on a sidenote I have to share my experience last year at our local boatshow... I Was at the mercury dealer when the Merc Rep debute the new 8/9.9 4strokes touting it was the only engine like it here and a all new model for mercury that is the result of millions spent in development. As the speach was being announced the Nissan Factory Rep walked by, and asked the merc rep to step ofer to his booth.. sitting on a stand was the IDENTICAL engine 1/2 painted grey the other painted black one with nissan decals, the other with merc.... NO 8hp mercs that i know of were sold that weekend.....( i am friends with the sales manager of merc dealer in question.. )

Maybe merc isnt so great after all.. and thats comming from a died in the woll merc owner....:eek:

[halfmine27]

gone fishing now and cannot decide on engines for new 35'. 300hpdi or 250opti triples

[JWTjr.]

An update:

Merc is taking editor Steve Quinlan up on the challenge he proposed in the last issue of B&WB. Specifically, a head-to-head shootout of E-TEC vs. Verado on the same boat. We'll conduct this test sometime in early 2005, along with the 225 DFI shootout that has been constantly postponed.

Lots of good stuff to come.

NPartin, sorry you don't believe the scheduling nightmares, but they do exist big-time. Yes, the boatbuilders/engine manufacturers are supposed to (key words: supposed to) have the rigs ready for testing when we arrive. It's amazing how many times they're not. You would think that with so much at stake, they'd be better prepared. Many times they are, often they're not, and that causes testing and scheduling problems galore, along with less-than-stellar results. And, believe it or not, we are on a limited time basis. After all it is a for-profit publication-we can't hang out and test all day for days on end, much as I'd like to. During the 300x test, the engine coughed when we were about to run it on the dyno, and we literally had to run to the airport to catch our flights. Next time...after all, some (including me) have "real" 9-5 jobs to do in addition to all the fun boat testing and writing.

JWTjr.

[sosmerc]

Now there's a test that alot of folks are going to be eagerly awaiting!! ...along with the DFI test!

[150aintenuff]

JWT jr


I Understand the issues, but it just seems that there "could" be better planning and I am totally aware of sub stellar results Especially from dealers that dont really care about a optimised product....

BTW I have zero intension of canceling the subscription... just think that things "should" go smoother... afterall isnt your and the publications job to make as much info available as possible....

That bullet with the 300x on it was Great.... alittle to great infact... that article got me lookin to repower my little mondain fishingboat...... darn it anyway... who needs a new house when there is a new OB to buy:D

It isnice to rant a little when someone can actually give response back from source... bummer about that 300x's dislike of dyno...:(

thanks for reply:)


Cant wait for next issue....

what hull are they using for e-tec vs. Verado... bassboat or walleye....

[INXS]

I read somewhere that in a comparison, I believe it was with 250s, that the Yamies matched Mercs on top speed, within .4 mph, on a bass boat! This was achieved by propping the Yamie to turn 6100 RPMs. Of course if you rigged one that way they would void your warranty? I believe (?) they put there Rec. RPM range low for warranty reasons, they do give a longer period!

[150aintenuff]

I read somewhere that in a comparison, I believe it was with 250s, that the Yamies matched Mercs on top speed, within .4 mph, on a bass boat! This was achieved by propping the Yamie to turn 6100 RPMs. Of course if you rigged one that way they would void your warranty? I believe (?) they put there Rec. RPM range low for warranty reasons, they do give a longer period!


you are correct but I havent heard of anyone being denyed service if needed form a yahama spinning 6100.. know several owners of yamis and most are set for 5800-6000 on big end... but they also retunly carry 6-8 people so it is a holeshot thing for them. mercs do have longer legs as most have taller gears hp for hp so same prop is turning slower on yamaha, hence lower MPH.

[INXS]

npartin, so it's ture that if you have the right propping the yammie 300 may be close to a Merc 300X ? Maybe within 2 mphs? BTW, hows the skiing at Bachelor this year, you have any good snow? Great countryside, as long as the South Sister doesn't blow its top! I heard it has a buldge build up in the last year or so!

[150aintenuff]

it would be closer to the 250XS than the 300x because the 300x is closer to 335hp than 300... the 300 hpdi is closer to older 300 (pre x motor) in hp Right propping is key regardless of HP so yes you could get close but dont expect a consumer motor to run with a performance motor of about 30 hp more. Batchlor is lackluster on snow so far but that will change, hood is open but with small base. Sisters are fairly quiet... it is MT ST HELENS that is making the news noadays.

I would assume that if your options were a 250 merc, 250 yami 250XS merc 300 yami and 300X speed would be as follows... 250 merc 250 yami (with in 1 mph) 250 XS 300 yami (again with in a few MPH ) and on top by maybe 3-4 MPH 300x total variation would be maybe 5-6 MPH total between 250-300X as merc 250XS was around 270 on dyno 300X is somewhere between 330-335HP 300 yami is sonewhere between 290-310 hp 250 XB was if i remember right 265-270 hp and 250 EFI was around 270 as well.


what is the 300 going on...big offshore boat or light fast boat.... also 300 hpdi is 100 lbs heavier than 300X

[150aintenuff]

oh yea the 300 hpdi would be a little cleaner on fuel and if you ever made it to california you could use it at tahoe whaere as 300x you cannot , it also may use less fuel crusing around at lower rpms as well. but on big end 300hp worth of fuel is 300 hp worth of fuel so on top they use about the same. but I would assume that DFI would use less in part throttle aplications but could be wrong, having never had a chance to run either engine, Have ran 250 HPDI vmax though and it was strong i thought for 250 hp so weigh the options as the 300 is just turned up 250...

[INXS]

I'm thinking of going for the 24' Progression, it's motor has been sold, and wanted to check on the out-puts (top speeds) on the motors. The 300X is allot more $$$ that's why I was wondering about the yammies. I'll give it some good thaught as I really like my Starflite but also like the Progression.
Thanks for the info.

[blkmtrfan]

I'm thinking of going for the 24' Progression, it's motor has been sold, and wanted to check on the out-puts (top speeds) on the motors.
Which one are you looking at INXS?

[150aintenuff]

hes lookin at 300 yami compared to X mota

[blkmtrfan]

I meant which 24 progression was he looking at ;)

[150aintenuff]

my bad oops:p

[blkmtrfan]

No problem


Now I just want to know what INXS has to say ;)

[INXS]

I meant which 24 progression was he looking at ;)

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63047&page=1

[blkmtrfan]

INXS mragu's boat looks very nice in the pics, very cool :cool:

[JWTjr.]

As I stated on another post, we have not seen a 300x produce anywhere near 330 hp on a propshaft dyno test, nor using the often used and very reliable GPH fuel consumption extrapolation (GPH consumption = approximately 10% of actual horsepower production, i.e. an engine consuming 30 GPH ~300 hp approx.). Best I have seen is a 300x that burned a shade over 30 GPH, indicating 300 hp. In our 300 shootout, the x produced 277 propshaft horsepower and the HPDI produced 275 (both at rated RPM levels, 6200-6800 for the x and 5000-5500 foor the HPDI). These engines produced speeds within 1.8 mph opf each other on the same boat (Gambler 2200) on the same day with the same driver and load.

Yamaha reps did state many times during the test that they would never deny service to anyone spinning one over 5500 (the engine's listed maximum RPM), but they seem to back away from putting that in print.

JWTjr.

[150aintenuff]

Nt to discount dyno
numbers but 277 and 275 hp respectivly seems ALOT low for engines that are supossed to be 300hp AT the Propshaft..... Correct me if Im wrong but didnt Propshaft HP become industry Standard in the late 1980's round about the PROV150 came on the market???? It sounds to me like the ole Numbers game is occuring again.. and I am no edxpert with many dollars worth of equipment but it seems to me that engines in this day and age not meeting the cowling HP or exceeding it wouldnt last long in todays market....

also the lawyers wont let them put it into print.... if it is printed there isnt a way out that the lawyers can use to deny coverages...even if reality says different.

also not to discount numbers again from a DYNO but If 300's only made 275 hp there would be alot closer numbers (less than 2 mph) in MPH to the 250's that are about 270 them selves...(250XS is between 250-270HP) ....unless of course ALL engines are under cowling posted ratings.:confused: now im confused , maybe the bible can anser som of my questions...... HMMMMMMMM... guess ill be buying some more toys....


taken DIrectly from MERCURY PERFORMANCE WEB SITE


Specifications
PROPSHAFT RATED HORSEPOWER(HP / kW): 300/224



277 isnt 300... also looking at bigKhuna 300 Comparo I dont see any Dyno ## listed in article......just an observation.

[150aintenuff]

MORE INFO


did some looking around yahamas website and I went back through the articles in a few B&WB mags i have.... like 3 years worth and this is what i have found so far....

acording to JWTjr GPH used is ~10% hp.... welll what about Yahama 225 four stk.. 224hp (B&WB DYNO IN TEXT)(honda/yahama shootout) at 19.5 GPH....... hmmmm NOT 10% more like 8.70%... or 300HPDIat 25.9GPH if HP is 300 like advertised...Hmmm thats 8.6% OR 250 HPDI at 21 GPH HMM thats less than 8.4% fuel usage... not a single engine was near 10% and i am sure mercs , hondas, Suzukis, Nissans, and even EVinRudes are in the same isle all less than 10% seems to me I recall a test of the 225HO on a stratos that only used 19 GPH as a fitch MOTOR... dont take my word for it Yahama Posts Performance data on their website... AS does Suzuki, As Does Honda... need i continue.... In this day and age the rules of old are being changed and if a conventional Carburator uses 10% isnt it safe to say that a performance tuned EFI would use less say 9% and a highly tuned and refined 2stk or 4 stk would use even LESS... and the less fuel is being burnt the less that gets unburnt due to over rich mixture... so if A/F mix is spot on then gee les fuel goes in for more power to comeout..... thats why there are automobiles today that have 345 HP in smallblock displacements that were only conseived as bigblock power 25yrs ago.(HEMI) and will get 20MPG to boot....

[Markus]

npartin, this has been discussed before, and if you dig up the appropriate thread using the search function, I once posted the whole NMMA hp specification + what it is based on.

A summary, if I remember correctly:

1. Engines above 100 hp have 5% leeway from stated horsepower, measured at the prop. shaft at the middle of the max rpm interval

2. Humidity, temperature and pressure when those measurements are made are based on the ISO specification, that goes back to the old German DIN hp spec.

Given 1 and 2:

a) Hp can be a lot higher 500 rpm above the middle of the max rpm interval
b) Hp can be a lot higher or a lot lower depending on the humidity, temperature and pressure when the test was made

Still, it surprises me that the HPDI and 300X are so close in actual power given what has been stated on S&F. It will be very interesting to see the curves in the magazine.

[Massbasser]

I've read in B&WB magazines before that those L&S propshaft field dyno's aren't always accurate and results can vary greatly depending on set up and conditions. Is this the type of dyno you were using? What is the accuracy of this machine? Suspect...

[blkmtrfan]

Regardless of the accuracy of the numbers reached on the dyno (maybe they were low) I find it very interesting that the 300x and 300HPDI were so close to the same number assuming they were tested on the same dyno, there realative difference in results would show womething much different than what HERB saw by trying both a 300x and 300 HPDI on the same boat (Intimidator 21) In fact HERB got a merc 250 efi to run beter than the Yammi :confused:

[us1ss]

The Dyno readings used are good and match everything I know of for the HPDI. Maybe that particular 300x just wasn't up to par? Or maybe Herb had a HPDI that wasn't up to par?

[DarthVMAX]

motors not been completely out of "break-in" mode perhaps?

[us1ss]

I think that is what the Mercury boys thought or at least hoped. That would make sense but who knows?

[blkmtrfan]

motors not been completely out of "break-in" mode perhaps?Interesting question, but JTJr said they got it up into the operating range :confused:

[sosmerc]

Straight from Mercury's High Performance Brochure:
"Every engine is tested on a dynomometer before it leaves the factory. Vital signs recorded include horsepower, throughout the RPM range, fuel consumption and peak power".

Wouldn't it be nice to receive a factory sheet on your engine when you uncrate it??!!

(not sure I want them running "my" engine at wide open throttle before I've had a chance to break it in properly)

[msm]

npartin, the gallons per hour = 10% of horsepower at wide-open throttle, stated in JWTjr's post, only applies to carbureted and EFI 2-strokes. Typically, 4-strokes and DFI 2-strokes are closer to 9%. Its only a rule-of-thumb though, so don't use it to go splittin' hairs. :D

[150aintenuff]

did i ever say that the 10% rule was for something other than carb two strokes... i dont think i did, i was repeating JWTJr's words on 10% rule... In another post on the discussion i posted SEVERAL examples of DFI and 4stk engines around 8% and a 300X that was around 8.6%, none of the newer motors use 10% most barily if at all over 9%

also most production engines are ran at least for a while to test and shake down the assembly so that Lemons can be caught in the production process. Also even though breakin periods are still recomended and should be followed I was taught on the school of thought that if an engine wont run the way it is going to be ran everytime its ran it isnt going to last long.. I wont clame to have the fasted boat here, as a matter of fact i am willing to bet that both of my boats speeds adderd to gether wont even come close to MOST of the hulls owned by the people here but driving an engine like it is normally used it will break in to that type of use and run its best in that aplication.

I have engines that are over 15yrs old , run better than they did out of the box(AFTER BREAKIN) and show no signs of giving up now, also i have one engine that is nearly 46 years old and it runs as strong as new as well. as long as you keep them in tune treat them right and maintain them to run good MOST of them do.

[JWTjr.]

Npartin, the 10% is a guideline, not a hard and fast rule. You are correct to note that many of the newer engines burn a bit less than 10% of their rated power as compared to traditional carbureted or EFI two-strokes which usually burn right around 10%.

In the 300 shootout dyno pulls, both engines were out of break-in mode. We know this for sure because we initially hith the break-in limiter with the Merc, and had to take it back to the lake for an additional hour of run time. It would then rev freely to 7000 rpm (where it hit the regular limiter).

The dyno used was indeed a Land & Sea operated by Gordon Montague of Monty Racing. It's an older model L&S but has always given consistent results. It records numbers very close to those that the OEMs see, but of course not on that 300 test! Yamaha seemed quite satisfied with the 275 hp results though. They had no problem with them. Merc on the other hand was quite upset. We recently ran a Merc 250xs on the same dyno and it produced 264 hp, which Merc says is right in line with their results up in Fond Du Lac.

Unlike many other Land & Sea marine products of the past which were questionable at best, their dynos seem to work quite well if you have adequate water supply and have worked with the unit and are familiar with it. It is a very sophisticated unit and I am certain that in the right hands can challenge any high-buck dyno for accuracy and repeatability.

JWTjr.

[JWTjr.]

Interestingly, that Merc we ran came in the box with no gearcase and no evidence of ever having been run, let alone on a dyno.

JWTjr.

[Instigator]

#1. JWTjr states that Merc lists the Verado's weight as 630 lbs but when they weighed it, it was substantially more.
To this I ask, how much???, and to all the 4 stroke fans that have been saying how lite this thing will be for the last 3 years I say :D

#2. on the up coming 225 shoot out, are you allowing the teams to change props only???
Big improvement if so but why not let them completely dial in the rig if they have the time and personel to do it??
The Bass/Walleye tests are great as is but why not more closely test as we the consumer would test??
I have a P.Boat (I believe) issue around here some where that way back when they took two identical boats (19' Eliminators I think) and allowed the factories to rig a 3.4 Merc against a V-8 Johnny.
Any wheel, and set up etc.
Was an awesome test and the only one I remember seeing and it was probably 20 yrs ago???

Gary

P.S., 630+ lbs :eek: :o :rolleyes: :D

[Capt.Insane-o]

#1. JWTjr states that Merc lists the Verado's weight as 630 lbs but when they weighed it, it was substantially more.
To this I ask, how much???, and to all the 4 stroke fans that have been saying how lite this thing will be for the last 3 years I say

Well let see, 636 pounds PLUS a say 15-20 lb stainless prop, PLUS 8 quarts of oil,PLUS the hydraulic steering set up......So I'd say 700 ish is'nt a stretch. which eliminates me owning one for any boat I'll have. If I have to have a 700lb lump it will be a car engine under a hatch that I don't have to fish around. As far as technology goes it's an awsome piece, for practicality, meh, not for me. Now if it weighed 450 or so pounds............that's another story.

[sosmerc]

I look at the Verado as a total system...and it is surely most appropriate for NEW boats built around the "system". At the present time, that's mostly offshore fishing boats and maybe some "larger" bass boats.
No doubt more appropriate performance versions will be introduced before too long. I'm in the same situation as you, no way could my present boat (LaveyCraft 20ft. Sebring) handle the weight. I may soon try a 3.0 litre on my hull, but you can bet I will try and make it as light as possible. (wish Merc would come out with a 15inch setup for these 3.0 litres).

[The Big Al]

1) Yellowallison, if you don't like the results printed in B&WB, then don't read it....

Yea i did ... many many folks I know did about 2-3 yrs ago!

I can't make you believe the results................. No .. but B&W did provide me with quite a few good yrs of sittin on the K-mode laughs.

But as I have stated on the record and off, many many times, the results are real, and as-recorded, the day of the subject test. No bull, no baloney................ Question? Is B&W owned by John Keerry?? Just curious?


I'm sorry that you ( many many others) don't believe them.

That's your opinion, unlike the test results which are facts................... No when I and othrs got the same equipment that B&W is testing sittin out in the garage and we read about how it does that-this in a B&W test .. and we go no heck it don't! Thaz when B&W makes for sum good K-mode sittin laughs...

As you know, opinions are a lot like a$$hole$---everyone has the... irs, and they all stink......

Wow! seems to me you be really defensive.. Maybe you heard some this same stuff before!!!!!!

I be nice and not mention HotBOAT!!! and how long yu told people to send their stuff to ole so so(yu knwo who) when the guy was crook and nuthin but a parts swapper!

Have a nice day!

I YeallarAllsion approve of this message!
No YELLOWALLISON! we all are calling you the A--hole!

Just like the crapp you started on the Allison site!

I guess when they have a shootout with the Allison boat and it's on top, You will be the B&WB rep!

Bet ya change hats to what team is winning that week!

[150aintenuff]

Npartin, the 10% is a guideline, not a hard and fast rule. You are correct to note that many of the newer engines burn a bit less than 10% of their rated power as compared to traditional carbureted or EFI two-strokes which usually burn right around 10%.

In the 300 shootout dyno pulls, both engines were out of break-in mode. We know this for sure because we initially hith the break-in limiter with the Merc, and had to take it back to the lake for an additional hour of run time. It would then rev freely to 7000 rpm (where it hit the regular limiter).

The dyno used was indeed a Land & Sea operated by Gordon Montague of Monty Racing. It's an older model L&S but has always given consistent results. It records numbers very close to those that the OEMs see, but of course not on that 300 test! Yamaha seemed quite satisfied with the 275 hp results though. They had no problem with them. Merc on the other hand was quite upset. We recently ran a Merc 250xs on the same dyno and it produced 264 hp, which Merc says is right in line with their results up in Fond Du Lac.

Unlike many other Land & Sea marine products of the past which were questionable at best, their dynos seem to work quite well if you have adequate water supply and have worked with the unit and are familiar with it. It is a very sophisticated unit and I am certain that in the right hands can challenge any high-buck dyno for accuracy and repeatability.

JWTjr.


OK so you have proven my argument so now where is the 100mph 250XS Bullet in the same form as that was tested in the 104mph boat. as the 250 is 264 hp (your results) and 300x is 277 (also your results) so now john answer my question using your results you gave CAN you produce a 100mph FISHING hull in B&WB TEST LOAD using a 250XS..... or did you yourself with your own testing PROVE MERC RIGHT that their engines ACTUALLY DO make 300+ hp.

[Laker]

Nicholas
You Dont understand Engines do you..!?
They are not all the same... They can be built by the exact same person and the same machines..and 2 built right next to each other Can be very different.
Add in Different AIR.. FUEL.. Alitude....Ect and even exatly the same motors built in Fondulac Wisconsin.. travel to Boston, Miami,Denver or Seattle Will act differently on different days..
And even if those are all the same their is still more variables.. You seem to have a couple brain cells to rub together... I Suggest You start rubbing harder to generate some common sense.

[150aintenuff]

LAKER

VARIBLES MY REAR.. if 2 identical engines (that are indead IDENTICAL) are ran in the same location IT DOESNT MATTER WHERE as they are both breathing the same AIR and FUEL and if are identical THEY "SHOULD" be DAMN NEAR IDENTICAL in numbers... AND IM sorry but 50hp differences ARE NOT DUE TO VARIABLES... 5-10 hp MAYBE but not 50... if both engines dyno in WISCONSIN at 300 hp at 600 ft elevation at 60*F and a barometer of 30" in washington at same elevation temp and berometer SHOULD be VERY CLOSE to Power Output AS VARIABLES ARE ELIMINATED if test conditions are duplicated

also COMMON SENSE will tell you FACTS are FACTS regardless of location..
#1 FACT EPA regulates Power output to 10% total VARIATION from Adfertised HP so if really tecnical on law merc posts in press releases that 300x is aprox 330 propshaft hp so subtracting 10% would Yeild 297HP for LEGAL MINIMUM output. 277 fals WAY short of that.
#2 FACT JWTJr SAID HP figures FIRST I mearly commented on the numbers he posted as i felt they were scued in some way
#3 Fact the L&S dyno is not the most accurate dyno on the market GRANTED it is the most portable, adaptable, and usable feild DYNO on the market, IT is also one of the CHEAPEST and In this day and age YOU GET what you PAY FOR.
#4 FACT NEITHER of us were there at ANY of the tests JWTjr posted about and BOTH of our observations ARE SUBJECTIVE as it is POSSIBLE for JWTJr to have numbers mixed around... it isnt likly because he does know his stuff BUT IT IS POSSIBLE!!!
#5 FACT I dont claim to Know EVERYTHING and None of us EVER will but I DO know MY type of boating and boats better than MOST people do.



I KNOW MOTORS AND IF YOU EVER CALL ME NICHOLAS AGAIN I WILL HAVE TO CONTACT S&F BECAUSE THAT IS NOT MY NAME ITS JUST NICK!!! AND I FIND IT OFFENSIVE YOU WOULD ASSUMEANY DIFFERENT!!!!

I atleast take the time to give my real name in the posts i post.

JWTJr Ran a bullet with a 250XS and it ran mid eightys and HIS OWN WORDS he ran a 250XS at 264hp and HE ALSO was involved with the 104MPH bullet in the December issue and (AGAIN IN HIS OWN WORDS) the 300x he has dynoed were 277hp and one being 290 hp. so (ASSUMING CONSISTANT PRODUCT) that 300X on the 104mph bullet was only 277 hp why wasnt the w250XS (ALSO ASSUMING CONSISTANT PRODUCT) (264hp) closer to 100mph????


I may not OWN a 300X or even a 3.0L engine but I DO know the product and I KNOW how to make them run and run well , It may not run with a race tuned engine but I GARANTEE it will run ALOT longer and be close ENOUGH to make 99% of people happy.
BTW i have engines that are DAMN NEAR 50 yrs old that just Barely smoke anymore than new conventional CARB or EFI engines and are JUST as smooth and start on the first Pull each time REGARDLESS of hot cold or other wise.

I personally DONT CARE about 100+mph boats BECAUSE I CANT AFFORD THEM but i DO CARE about getting EVERY LAST MPH out of what i got and what others bring to me.. so far I havent had ANY blown motors or unhappy clients, but I also error on side of caution because i cant afford one to go POP

Sure i could say SCREW safety, reliabiltiy, and customer satisfaction and spend thousands of dollars making stock engines run with HIGHLY specilized RACE OB's but I also like my freedom and my pocketbook.

I cant say I know JWTJr or that i agree with EVERYTHING he says but i do RESPECT his articles in the magazine he works for, he has always been respectfull to my posts and backed up his data EVEN if I dont AGREE i still give him respect and will contine to read his publication REGARDLESS because it is a wealth of infomation that if applied correctly CAN be repeated IN MOST cases..

Perhaps JAY SMith can post what 2 blueprint EXACT engines run like... Ill put my 2 cents on they will run so similar that the will be hard to tell apart.

[BarryStrawn]

#1 FACT EPA regulates Power output to 10% total VARIATION from Adfertised HP so if really tecnical on law merc posts in press releases that 300x is aprox 330 propshaft hp so subtracting 10% would Yeild 297HP for LEGAL MINIMUM output. 277 fals WAY short of that.


Facts?

Mercury advertises the 300X at 300 horsepower or 224 kiloWatts at the propshaft. http://www.mercurymarine.com/pro_max_300x So using the +- 10% it would seem you and the EPA should be happy with any 300x between 270 and 330 hp.

[jimmyb]

JWT:

you should take a tour of merc racing sometime! Then you will see that all the racing powerheads (this is any powerhead that has the racing name on it, including 200XS, 2.5XS, 250XS and 300X, etc) are ran on a POWERHEAD dyno for 1 hour of break in before being bolted to a midsection/gearcase.

Running engines on a propshaft dyno is problematic for production...

[Scream And Fly]

I went to Mercury Racing this past summer. Very impressive, and indeed the engines are run on a powerhead dyno - there are even photos of it in the Gallery!

Greg

[Laker]

Nicholas
Do you live in the same world the rest of us do?
Or do you just have over active fingers trying to stir up trouble.
What do you have to prove with your ramblings?
Besides making yourslef sound like a babbling wannabe.

[Balzy]

I KNOW MOTORS AND IF YOU EVER CALL ME NICHOLAS AGAIN I WILL HAVE TO CONTACT S&F BECAUSE THAT IS NOT MY NAME ITS JUST NICK!!! AND I FIND IT OFFENSIVE YOU WOULD ASSUME ANY DIFFERENT!!!!

There goes Laker stirr'in up the pot again !!!!!!!!!! You sure are a trouble maker Mr Lakehead !!!!!!!:rolleyes:

BTW, I agree that:


Mercury advertises the 300X at 300 horsepower or 224 kiloWatts at the propshaft. http://www.mercurymarine.com/pro_max_300x So using the +- 10% it would seem you and the EPA should be happy with any 300x between 270 and 330 hp.

Pretty simple math if ya ask me. 10% up / 10% down. Such a simple world...........


Originally Posted by npartin
#1 FACT EPA regulates Power output to 10% total VARIATION from Adfertised HP so if really tecnical on law merc posts in press releases that 300x is aprox 330 propshaft hp so subtracting 10% would Yeild 297HP for LEGAL MINIMUM output. 277 fals WAY short of that.


Nicholas, Nick, npartin, whatever ya wanna be called today, does that mean that in your world of math if merc posts in press releases that 300x is aprox 330 propshaft hp so adding 10% would Yeild 363HP for LEGAL MAXIMUM output?:confused:

Come on, get with the program, the advertised rating on a 300 HP motor is 300 HP. Is n't that why they put 300 on the side of the cowl? Maybe they should be making cowl decals that say 277X or 363X. :eek: LOL

[JWTjr.]

jimmy, thanks for the invite...last time I was there it was winter 97, would love to get out there again maybe even make some of the fun rallies like Balzy's. I will try hard to do so this year. I'll talk to Rick and my editor about a Merc Racing shop tour in BWB in 05. While I was there I did indeed see the engines being run on the powerhead dyno...which is why it was so strange to see the 300x we ran without any evidence of prior running before we started it for the first time.

Npartin, you are trying to compare two or even three different test occurences as if they were the same, done in the same day on the same boat. Not possible. Comparing the 300x we ran on the 104 mph Bullet to the 300x we ran on the Gambler (the one that dynoed at 277 hp) is not a good comparison. Yes they are both 300x engines but one could have been very strong and the other not. Like it or not, those variations do exist. Several years ago we ran a 300x on a 21XD Bullet and it not only ran 100 mph, it burned over 30 GPH on my Floscan gauge. I'm sure that one was strong, although I don't know for sure how much power it made--did not dyno it. Could have been 290, could have been 300, etc.

Also, you are forgetting the rev limit on the 250XS compared to the the 300X. On all but the newest 05 250XSs, the rev limit was 5850 (it's now 6400). So, with equal or close gear ratios, the 250XS could never equal the speed of the 300x with same boat and setup. However, with horsepower ratings so close, similar speeds ARE possible with careful setup, gear ratio selection and propeller changes. To wit, we ran a SVS-equipped Pro 250XB on a 20' DC Bullet a few years ago at Lake X with 1.62 gears and a good top end prop at speeds very close to 100 with Paul Nichols and myself aboard. If we could turn the engine past 6150 I'm sure we could have easily broken 100. Ditto with Paul's record-breaking 105 mph run with a 250XS. He used every bit of prop (34") and gear ratio (1.62) possible to keep the engine below 5850 and it produced speeds of 105 mph. Granted that was with a light boat with no fishing rigging, but it still shows a very close comparision. You must remember to keep those variables in the equation when comparing "not-so-similar" setups and test results.

JWTjr.

[sosmerc]

How's this for a new decal:

300X?

[Balzy]

..................


How's this for a new decal:

300X?3??X


John T, It would be great to see you here. We may not be doing a full blown BTTW charity deal like we have in the past but we will be getting everyone together the thrird week or so in July. We will plan the tour at High Perf and probably more stuff at the production plant (Verado anyone?) for 2005. Watch for my posts for more info down the road John.

[sosmerc]

Much Better!!

Merry XX-mas ALL!!!

[150aintenuff]

THat 330 number i keep saying came from merc and yes they tout it as 300 but in its performance designation did it ever think that merc was under rating the mota with its cowling ALSO mercury openly advertises that the 300X gained nearly 40 hp ofer promax 300 so EVEN if the 300 promax was on the lowside of 300 (oh say for point of refference 280hp) that would still put it OVER 300 and closer to 320.
I ALSO understand VARIATION in manufacturing as the parts are MASS produced and engines may be nowhere near IDENTICAL heck MOST are lucky to even be close. BUT 60HP off of what MERC admitted to saying the 300X had for HP is more than VARIATION... perhaps that 300x that JWTJR dynoed had a bad hole or MAYBE it needed another day to set the pistons even though the ECM timer had allowed it to rev fully.
I have ALSO heard (no ACTUALL documentation) that the HPDI wasnt putting out Quite 300HP but it is also a PRODUCTION OB not a performance OB and IT can be ran in CA.. so their "close" I NEVER did say the numbers were incorect or that the 300x was a bad engine i just didnt agree with the numbers becaus from what i have seen that engine has more power than that.

[neveredge]

I have a Question. What I want to know is this (330hp) a crankshaft reading or a prop shaft reading. If Merc doesn't use a propshaft dyno then how are they coming up with propshaft hp numbers?

[Scream And Fly]

All Mercury outboards are propshaft rated, and I know that the 300X makes more than 300 horsepower at the prop.

Greg :)

[JW]

:eek: An 11 pager! :p

[1BadAction]

:eek: An 11 pager! :p
see what YOU did... :p

[Capt.Insane-o]

And extreme pissyness is rampant. LOL, if I spent 18 grand on a 300hp motor and it does'nt make 300 hp, I'd be quite upset.

[Laker]

Hey Kaptian Khrome Dome..... :p :p :p :p :p :p
Dont for get the 15th... YOUR MINE!

John You need to make it up here for one of The Events!
:D
I promise from now on I will not platter my head all over the parking lot!
Helmets from now on! ! :D

[lilabner]

"my Ford can whip your Chevy any day"...anybody remember the old song "Tell Laura I love her"..you guys are still arguing about the same crap they did when the wheel was invented...no one ever won!!!

[150aintenuff]

Neveredge I saw it in a merc article i have somewher in a box of stuff as i move recently

It was a comparison from lake X between the promax 300 and 300X it was also used by the local performance dealer here in town at the boat show that year (2000 i believe) the 330 hp was a dyno run test and the promax was like 303hp if memory serves.. if i find the article i will post it here.

[INXS]

You guys, and this thread, got allot of talk over on Bass, Boat Central! Seems everyone wants to know the dyno #s?

[1BadAction]

You guys, and this thread, got allot of talk over on Bass, Boat Central! Seems everyone wants to know the dyno #s?
#1- Dyno #s dont count (points to GPS) thats what counts... I find it rather comical that BWB is showing the yami being so close to the merc, especially when one of our own members here couldn't make the yami perform worth a flip.

#2- how did this thread get from etec VS verado to 300x dyno numbers so quick?

back on topic, ETEC VS VERADO!!!!

the answer is...
















































































NEITHER! THEY ARE BOTH PIGS THAT BELONG ON NOTHING BUT 22' BASS BOATS AND PONTOONS! :D

[INXS]

Can't see why those BBC guys need big motors to catch little Bass! :D

[philip12]

I would also like to know the true HP ratings? If the 300X truly makes only 270 hp, the 300 promax must make 245-250? If this is true I am paying my Insurance Co. too much money to insure my boat with a 300 promax. The decals and hp. Rating should only be 250. how do I convince them the 300 designation is wrong? BTW I don’t know about Dyno hp, but I had (2) 1998 300 promax on my 32’ Skater, took the promaxes off, installed (2) 300x’s and after break in ran 5 mph faster and 300 rpm spinning the same props. Neither set of motors was ever on the limiters.

[rsess]

Hi phillip. How fast does the skater 32 go now. What props. Thans

[Dukeofchippewa]

I'm just wondering does anyone know how the Martin 200 E-tec fares against the Merc KG9 Verado.:rolleyes:

[philip12]

rsess, I have tried many props, and on this particular boat, the best all around props are 14.5x32 3 blade merc. lab cleavers, spinning out. runs right around 102 or so, depending on the day, amount of fuel, people etc. The 4 blade cleavers were not right at all for this boat. the 14.75 or 15" dia were a little too big, and I would rather spin the pitch, rather then the Dia. if i can. BTW I have also run 28" and 30" props, the 28" is great in the roughest water, instant accel. the 30" props are very good in moderate water, and the 34" just take too long to spin up. This is a pleasure boat, so all out top end is not the utmost thing, I can get up on plane with 5 people and full fuel pretty easy. I think if I changed the set up a little there might be a few more MPH here. BTW,,, Joe from ECM is seeing the best speeds from Choppers, 106 or so I hear. He is the main man on these though. Any one want to guess on the HP of a 300 promax, non X?

[Fr. Frank]

Did they test any other OB in this test?

[sho305]

Promax 300's, did a quick search try these:

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74073&highlight=promax+hp+300+300x
http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36228&highlight=promax+hp+300+300x

Yeah me too, I was hoping we would be getting more real world feedback on people running Verados and other new/changed motors by now (DI's)...I guess it is never soon enough though is it.

[150aintenuff]

Did they test any other OB in this test?


I believe thje results are comming up in the next Issue of B&WB and Trailerboats Magazine...At least that is according to the mag..

Also I like how on the 300 Merc Vs Yahama the Mag chose NOT to publish their Dyno Results they got Because they couldnt Prove their tests on a second dyno....

[JWTjr.]

NPartin, I suppose you were there? You know first hand why we didn't publish the results? Please tell the audience how you know why we didn't print the results...I'd love to hear this.

JWTjr.

[Cp]

This oughta be good.... :eek:

[JW]

Running both engines on the dyno showed that whatever horsepower they were making, both engines were very very close. But John & company didn't trust the numbers, so they didn't print them. There's no better way to handle that situation. It's good enough for that test to know that both engines were extremely close on output, which surprises everyone.

[Toffen]

Hi!

I have a PM 300 SVS with a new powerhead. The first powerhead was stronger than the powerhead I have now, approx. 100 rpms. So you find differences between them. Its a mechanical item.

When I changes from a Evinrude 225 Ficht to a PM 300, I picked up 7 mph. If we count 10-15 hp per mph which is standard figure HP vs MPH, the PM 300 in stock form should pull approx. 300 HP.

When I ran my Phantom 25 with a Evinrude V8 3.6 litre 300 HP engine, max speed was approx. 75-76 mph. With stock form PM 300, top speed was 74 mph - 76 mph. Adding SVS, reed plate, Rapair ECU, etc gave me a more consistent speed at wot - 77-79 mph.

I have also read that a PM 300 SVS should pull 315-330 HP on the prop. One of the members here posted a dyno sheet showing this.

Cheeers, TG

[150aintenuff]

NPartin, I suppose you were there? You know first hand why we didn't publish the results? Please tell the audience how you know why we didn't print the results...I'd love to hear this.

JWTjr.
IN YOUR OWN WORDS JOHN:
"the dyno proved that the two engines were within 2hp of eachother, yet quite a bit lower than we'd expected. We repeated the Dyno pulls a halfa dozen times to ensure that something was not amiss. Each time we came within a HP of our previous runs. Because of the numbers for both engines were so far off the mark, and we were unable to substantiate them on another dyno, we decided not to publish the results"

last paragraph page 31 first line page 32 of january 2005 B&WB 300HP shootout "title bout"

Just courious but doesnt 6 consecutive Dyno runs have ability to hurt the outboard powerheads CAUSING the low power #'s??

Just so we are clear here john YOU WERE ARGUING WITH YOURSELF you said it.... I was referencing YOUR statements.... do I need to SCAN and paste the actual paragraph you wrote to prove that you said that... or is typing it verbatim enough?? :eek: :eek:

[JWTjr.]

Other factors were involved...that's all I can say.

While six consecutive pulls could, if performed incorrectly (for example, not giving enough time for the motor to cool) hurt the engine, we take every precaution to prevent this--and did so during that test session. We ran both motors out on the lake before and after the dyno pulls, and there was no difference in their performance on the water.

Npartin, I responded to your post with the same sarcasm and vitriol that you seem to have on every one of your posts directed at Bass & Walleye Boats' test results.

JWTjr.

[sho305]

What was it, the Yam HPDI 300 and the Merc PM300 non-X EFI? I have heard people here say the 250 Merc is mighty close to the 300.

[DarthVMAX]

You can't get ANY more political controversy than the "good" o'l EPA. John Tiger would there be a "GREEN" factor (and I'm not talking dollars) in the politics behind the 300 shoot-out? (if yes then reply with the name Kermit the Frog :D )

[sho305]

I don't know about others, but I hate it when they beat around the bush. I mean the motors will get sold and the people will run them...not like the truth will not come out. I make sure to provide any backlash I can if someone spews about an introductory product. On the other hand if there is a real reason to wait I certainly understand that too. If that motor does not represent the product people will be buying then it is not comparable, and is just a preview.


Either way, it sure looks like there is a lot of action in the DI market and that is a real good sign...much better than the same old motors year after year. Maybe not good for the hiperf motors now, but that action is the way to better hiperf stuff in the future.

[150aintenuff]

John you might want to read All of my posts regarding B&WB Not EVERY post is sarcastic and vitriol as you stated, I have suscribed to your magazine for over 4 years and I actually mostly agree with your and others test results UNLESS i pave seen other similar hulls to your tests that either perform better (not just 1-2 mph) or worse than what your tests found. Yes there are variables but I know howmuch things of SIMILAR hp/weight ratio "SHOULD" compare. as with EVERY tech article I read there is ALWAYS some form of author opinion or Bias to a particular function or productI t is my job as a reader and paying customer to critique and QC if you will Each editor and writers work for the Facts and opinions in each article to dig up the truth with in the article. I had no doubt that there was politics involved.. ANYTIME mercury is involved there is politics regardless of their position. same goes with Yahama, BMC (OMC) and other large companies. Your tests and comparisons are ina way advertising and product immersion for those companys and if one performs poorly in any aspect of testing they take notice and start scawbling.

I may not have the Racing history that you or others here have but I do have 20 years of boating and operating experience behind me and eventhough I have never driven in excess of 100mph I have ran low 90's in friends boats. I never said I was an expert I just know when to throw out a BS flag and when to start questioning a certain part of an article and the fact that the dyno runs were mentioned and then not posted raised that flag. My feeling is if you are going to mention the fact that the engines were dyno'd come to the plate and post graphs of the entire RPM range so US the customers can get "secret" manufacture information about their products, Most people know that there is variation in product, maybe as much as 10% but from what i have seen and currently own the manufactures under rate their power output so the customer "feels" they are getting more for their money.. it goes clear back to Karl Keikafer(sp) with his first 10HP
that engine would play with 18's of its day. why? 2 reasons.. Either it had more power than its cowl rating OR it was of superior efficiency than the compition. Either way it "felt" stronger so people bought it.

Also I am sure you remember the 150hp wars of the late 1980's and early 1990's... who started that... Yahama and suzuki... How... They had more HP than the powerhead rated engines of the day... BECAUSE WHY.... they were propshaft rated....which set a new standard for the industry...

does it supprise me that the numbers were "off" no... does it suprise me that the results wernt posted, no does it suprise me that there were politics ... HELL NO.. but what suprises me is YOU john let the politics and the other BS dictate what the content of your article had in it.. you mentioned Dyno runs you were then obligated to then inform your readers of their results otherwise just cut the dyno paragraph out and maybe slip in the fact that the engines were with in 2 hp in one of the sidebars. Ijust dont see the point of being a tease.... if its mentioned go in to full detail.. if it is to political leave it out.. if it means your career go down in a blaze of glory... just my opinion...

[JWTjr.]

It's easy to pontificate and offer opinion on what should and shouldn't be when you're not the one doing the testing and writing...I don't get the final say in my articles, that's up to my editor and his superiors at Ehlert Publications...if it were up to me I'd print it all, but it's not. Still, there's no other boating magazine (in any format) out there willing to lay out test results even close to what we do...

JWTjr.

[lilabner]

Back in 60 race boaters were about 1/2 of one percent of the market..I doubt it's changed much.If you go to a large marina and ask the people, family folks, fishermen, etc if they like their motors, they usually say yes..Ask them if they had it dyno tested, they say "what's that?".The bottom line for manufactures is profitability..They work hard to make a better product to pass the laws and I really don't think they give a hoot about all the whining on who has 2 hp more than who ever..besides, it ain't always horsepower that wins...(in the end it's usually who spends the most..) :confused:

[ssent]

I for one would of liked to see the results. Probably alot of people felt the same way. Politics and money, they ruin some many good things. It's just a shame.

[Dukeofchippewa]

Getting back to the subject, if Etec & Verado are that close why spend more money fpr the expensive one?:confused:

[Raceman]

John, I'm curious................ seems like on a previous thread when I was being sarcastic about the Land and Sea Dyno (and Land and Sea in general) that you were confident concerning the accuracy of the L&S machine. What is the difference in this particular case?
I don't feel like looking back for the topic, but I believe it involved a statement that y'all were seeing horsepowers of considerably less that Merc's claims on a 300X (correct me if I'm wrong).

[stan merck]

Actually what John posted earlier of the Yamaha dynoing at 275 hp is pretty accurate for that eng so it seems like the dyno was working properly. I did expect the Merc to be faster than 1.8 mph over the Yamaha, and the Yamaha needed more prop it was on the limiter. Put enough prop on it to pull it down to 58 to 5900 rpm and it would have probably been even closer at least in top speed. I do wish they would have printed all the specs on the Yamaha on up past the 5500 mark. I know thats agaisnt their policy but they have exceeded the manufacture's rpm range on single eng tests before, whats the big deal in a shootout?

[JWTjr.]

My personal opinion, based on the numbers I saw on the L&S dyno on both engines and the performance of smae engines on the Gambler boats afterwards, is that the dyno was very close if not spot on. Yamaha did not dispute the horsepower numbers (275) and all three of the Yamaha reps on hand for the test simply looked at each other, shrugged their shoulders, and nodded when they saw the results after a half-dozen pulls. Merc, on the other hand, was "displeased" (i.e...that's worded very politely) when they saw the 277-hp results. The boat speeds back up the results, though. In addition, more than one "insider" told me on seperate occasions that we got a "substandard" 300x. Do I believe them? I honestly don't know. I would have to imagine that a "good" 300x would make 300 horsepower. Like most of you, I want to believe that it does. Then again, I would think that a Yamaha VZ300 would do the same. I really don't know. I was surprised to see the low numbers produced by that test. However, when we ran the boats together, the numbers proved to be very close as well.

I am hoping for another opportunity to dyno test another 300x and VZ300. As of this writing, I have good confidence that the L&S dyno is producing accurate numbers, as long as the water supply is constant and adequate. I've tested many other engines that produced horsepower and torque numbers that were in line with the advertised figures, plus they triangulated with the resulting boat speeds produced. As we test more engines we'll have a better feel for the results and the accuracy. We will do more with the dyno in the near future, both with engine shootouts and with general testing. We will probably do some sort of feature where we run it head-to-head against a factory (or maybe Diamond's) powerhead dyno to see how close they are. Stay tuned.

JWTjr.

[David]

do you correct for air temperature, pressure, and humidity when dyno testing?

[1BadAction]

directly from yamahas website... the vmax hpdi is rated for 4650-5650 RPM so lets assume the limiter on that motor is set at 5800. 1.75 gearcase.

directly from mercs website... the 300x is rated for 6100-6800 rpm. for comparison we will use 6800 rpm. It also has 1.75 gears, OR, the sportmaster has 1.62 gears. for comparison we will use the 1.75 gears.

with a 26p prop, at 10% slip, the merc boat is going 86 MPH
with a 26p prop, at 10% slip, the yamaha boat is going 74 MPH
with a 30p prop, at 10% slip, the yamaha boat is going 85 MPH

so, the yamaha on the same hull, HP being equal, still needs to swing a prop 4 pitch sizes bigger to run close to the merc... something smells. I got it! somebody pulled a plug wire from the 300x! 330hp/6 = 55hp per cylinder... 330-55=275 :eek:

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/products/subcatspecs.asp?lid=5&lc=otb&cid=18&scid=7&but=27&year=2005&cat=V+MAX+Series&scat=HPDI

http://www.mercurymarine.com/pro_max_300x

[ssent]

If the gear ratios were the same, it's too bad they can't run the same exact prop. Then maybe you wouldn't see a difference in speed.

[David]

Per the B&W test:

The Yammy rev limit is not 5800, but 6150, which it turned.

83.0 @ 5500 = max recommended rpm
87.6 @ 6150 = max seen
1.75 gears, 14 7/8 X 29 Yamaha pro series prop

Of course we would all rev the motor past 5500, certainly once it was out of warranty

Merc

89.4 @ 6500
1.62 gears, 13.75 X 26 Trophy


Merc plus

weight
higher rpm and lower numerical gears = higher speed potential on the right boat

Yamaha plus

Green
regular fuel
2 year vs 1 year warranty

[1BadAction]

so, why does the merc not even turn to its rated RPM with a 26? but the yammi will turn a 29 to PAST its rated rpm... A FREAGIN 26! the 300x would bang the limiter all day with a prop that size (that is if the driver would give it WOT) :rolleyes:! something is fishy with this whole test, shame on them. 100%, grade A, BS.






so thats why the last mag I got smelled like a heard of cattle. :rolleyes:

[150aintenuff]

so, why does the merc not even turn to its rated RPM with a 26? but the yammi will turn a 29 to PAST its rated rpm... A FREAGIN 26! the 300x would bang the limiter all day with a prop that size (that is if the driver would give it WOT) :rolleyes:! something is fishy with this whole test, shame on them. 100%, grade A, BS.






so thats why the last mag I got smelled like a heard of cattle. :rolleyes:


I agree something wasnt right..... on both engines.... if indeed they were 275 and 277hp... according to JWT the yahama guys gave the oh-well shrug and merc whined but still they were bothe off the mark IMO and a retest with true 300hp engines should be done. If you are going to test the biggest out there MAKE SURE that they are indeed the biggest out there as there are mostlikly some 250's that would run right with them all day long.

I agree with you 1bad that something on that 300x wasnt right at all. yahama may just have been weak as well but it also wasnt touted as the ultimate performance OB either.

[stan merck]

Wasn't there a test in Bass and Walleye of a Gambler with a 300X some yrs ago and it just broke around 90 mph? Pretty much what this one did. It ran 104 on a comp hull 20 XD Bullet so 90 on a heavy Gambler with a stock prop seems about right. I just can't believe Mercury didn't try a different eng or gearcase or something in that test.

[ssent]

I think if at all possible the gear ratios should of been the same along with the prop. Bass and walleye should dyno every motor they test and print the results, at least then a ringer couldn't snick in under everybodies nose. What about the 10% rule of hp ratings? Shouldn't these motors made close to 330hp.Check out the mpg. and gph. the yammi got. At 5500 rpm the yammi burned only 22.4 gph. Thats awfully low for supposidly 300hp. :rolleyes:

[stan merck]

Thats why I wish they would have listed what it burned at WOT. I heard they burn about 27 gph. Right on for 275 hp.

[150aintenuff]

the new immissions motors are only using about 8.5-9% per hp so if it is burning between 27-29 GPH its gunna be close to 300 ponies... that X mota will use close to 9.5-10 % however.

[Markus]

The point here really is not whether the dyno was right in absolute terms and what the engine would have put out in 0% relative humidity at -10 C.

It is that the Yamaha and Mercury performed shoulder to shoulder. That should be good news given that the 300X is going away and that the HDPI is significantly less expensive anyway.

Now, if only one could mount a Sportmaster on the Yamaha...

[blkmtrfan]

Very good point Markus, but the merc and yammi running "shoulder to sholder" did not ring true on Herb's Intimidator :confused:

[sho305]

Yes Herb had some great posts about his motors. I don't have this report, did Yami change anything on this 300 from Herbs?

[Markus]

Yes Herb had some great posts about his motors. I don't have this report, did Yami change anything on this 300 from Herbs?

I don't think there have been any firm reports on whether Yamaha has changed anything or not, but I suspect they have given these results.

[Dukeofchippewa]

E-Tec is the best, nothing beats e-tec. ttt btt :D

[stan merck]

Didnt Herb give up on the Yamaha before really getting it dialed in? Didnt he end up with a 250 merc running faster than the 300 did? On a bassboat the 300 Yamahas have been a couple mph faster than the 250 mercs.

[sho305]

Without reading it again, I remember complaining about the LU design. Remember someone saying it was less than optimal due to Merc patents they thought and also it didn't have a good gear ratio. The price/warranty was good but Herb didn't get what he thought 300 should be and moved on.


Markus- I saw that JTWjr said "VZ300" and wondered if that is a new model or not as I have not seen the VZ before, but I am not a Yami study either...maybe that is just standard Vmax talk? In older threads there was talk of Yami still working on the hpdi sytem & the 300 when it came out, still improving/etc.

[blkmtrfan]

Didnt Herb give up on the Yamaha before really getting it dialed in? Didnt he end up with a 250 merc running faster than the 300 did? On a bassboat the 300 Yamahas have been a couple mph faster than the 250 mercs.

From what I remember, he really did try to dial it and spent many hours trying different things, but he ended testing because the Yammi blew up ;)

Yes the 250 merc was just as fast 94-96 I believe, but the 300x was way faster like 103-105

[DarthVMAX]

I don't know if they changed anything over last year (none that I have heard or read). The gear ratio has always been 1.75/1 and for some applications a 1.62 would be ideal, too bad Yamaha only makes the 1.75. The H2o intakes are close to even with the shaft height (not as low as a SM) but plenty low for most bass-boat applications (intended market). The 3.3L lower unit was tested to slightly over 100 mph with no blow-out problems. The 3.3L HPDI's (200, 225, 250, 300 hp) uses Yamaha's 2nd generation DI system (1,000 PSI). The 2.6L HPDI's (150, 175, 200 hp) still use their 1st generation 700 PSI DI system.

Perhaps HERB had a sour motor that wasn't up to par to a healthy 300 Vmax??? :confused:

[sho305]

I think it was in summer '02, but the site will not search back that far or even under Herb's posts. My email got trashed back then so I can't find it. Did find this one http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61125&page=1&pp=15&highlight=herb+yamaha+300
Herb says his let a piston go at 10 hours, but other 300's have had problems as well...anyway Yami has had since then to work it.

[blkmtrfan]

Here is the thread that you are looking for:


http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53486&highlight=yamaha

[sho305]

May '03, I sure got that wrong. I had chatter of hpdi 300 stuff in my backup in '02 but no S&F links.

[blkmtrfan]

No problem, very interesting stuff, sure dosen't seem to show the same thing as the recent B&W test :confused:

Yes it is true I like black motors but I love the competition and hope Bomb comes out with a 300 e-tech as well amybe merc can figure out a 350xs opti, we can only hope ;)

[DarthVMAX]

however Evinrude is supposed to be coming out with a 250HO Etec. I think its coming out mid-summer as a 2006 model. If it is anything like their 225HO ("net" rumored @ 247 or 248 hp) maybe we could see 275-280 out of it! :D :cool: :confused:

[David]

re: DI 200's

For a heavy boat the 3.3L 200's would be my choice
For a lighter boat like my Allison I'd go for the 200XS

200XS 2.5L 6000-6500 rpm 1.87 gears, 434 lb
Rude 200 HO 3.3L 5500-6000 rpm 1.86 gears, 517 lb
Yamaha 2.6L HPDI VMax 200 2.6L 4500-5500, 1.86 gears, 475 lb
Yamaha 3.3L HPDI VZ200 3.3L, 4500-5500, 1.81 gears, 529 lb

all but the VZ200 data from manufacturer claims
VZ200 from Feb Bass & Walleye boat
They turned their test engine to 5800 rpm
B&W state that the added displacement plus a new lower unit = 3-4 more mph

Only the 200XS requires premium fuel.

Some time this year B&W are doing a 200 comparison test.

[stan merck]

You mean Bass and Walleye actually turned it past 5500 rpm? The VZ 200 3.3 is a 1.75 ratio also.

[150aintenuff]

You mean Bass and Walleye actually turned it past 5500 rpm? The VZ 200 3.3 is a 1.75 ratio also.


they will turn them past 5500( 300 on gambler was turned to limmiter)

JUST TRY TO FIND IT IN THE CHARTS!!!!!.....oh boy another disclamer.....

I wish yahama would just post 5000-6000 RPM limits ans set the limmiter to 6400...

[aqualoony]

just to get back to topic.....saw a saltwater edition 250 etec on the back of a 6.5 meter fishing boat on the weekend, the bloke was sitting at the dock with it running and damn it was quiet. i have been on boats with four strokes and ficht etc, and verado, but for a 2 stroke this was unbelievable ..smooth as anything and he said while at idle he uses only around 600mL of fuel per hour....that also impressed me. Admittedly i am an evinrude/johnny fan, but the verado impressed me big time, but admittedly i'm not sure if the verado is worth the extra 5000 AUD over the etec. just my 2 cents. but i would have either if they were given to me=)

[DarthVMAX]

I posted this under "general discussions (spanking thread)" but incase you didn't see this "drag race" (its a little vague but still cool).

http://www.evinrude.com/EvinrudePublic/_Static/neutral/Videos/DragRace_WEB.avi

225HO Etec vs 225 Vmax HPDI vs 225 Verado

[Just1More]

I'm sorry but to me, the E-TEC is just another Sea Doo product.

JUNK JUNK JUNK!

[DarthVMAX]

I was always under the impression that Sea Doos were one of the best PWC's made. All of my friends who are PWC junkies swear by them, and all but one have owned just about every brand out there. :confused:

No doubt that the ETEC technology will have some teething pains (as all new tech does).

[Laker]

Sea Doos are the best.
Just1more is trying Just to cause troubles...

[Hydrovector]

I don't know about them but Ive got a new Ski-Doo and it Rocks.
I wouldn't hesitate to by a New E-Tec Rude! IMO
I owned a Rude for 29 years.

[Just1More]

Every person I have EVER known from Florida to Maryland who has had a Sea Doo, regrets the day they bought it. Yamaha is king of PWC and this is coming from Merc Man!

[DarthVMAX]

I'm starting to think your on to something ;) I'm also starting to think ol just1more has had his azz handed to him by someone on a SEA DOO on many occasion and thats how he got his login name.........keeps going back for just1more spankin LOL :D :p

Take her easy 1more, I am just havin a little fun. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

[Yamaha 225]

I would not rely on a motor from that brand anyway. It is supposed to run 3 years without service. That doesn't make sense to me! :confused:

[Dukeofchippewa]

JJ JJ JJ JJ:p

[Dukeofchippewa]

I posted this under "general discussions (spanking thread)" but incase you didn't see this "drag race" (its a little vague but still cool).

http://www.evinrude.com/EvinrudePublic/_Static/neutral/Videos/DragRace_WEB.avi

225HO Etec vs 225 Vmax HPDI vs 225 Verado
Thanks I seen it, very cool.:D ;)

[Dukeofchippewa]

Every person I have EVER known from Florida to Maryland who has had a Sea Doo, regrets the day they bought it. Yamaha is king of PWC and this is coming from Merc Man!
Hey, 2 people out of thousands doesn't mean much.:rolleyes:

[150aintenuff]

just1more if you think yahama is king of PWC i got one ill sell ya CHEAP!!!!! its a 1100 tripple and it runs like a boat anchor..... slow as heck.. even the baby seadoo runs circles around it...

[E-rudesoldier]

gotta tell ya I though rude was done when they got purchased by bombadier. But looks like they may just help them keep there 2-strokes screamen (but low emmisions in case any one is looking for that.) Plus gotta tell you guys had a bombadier beer last time I was in England and lets just say I think its flavored by what they clean up of the floor of Evinrude and SeaDoo plants.

[150aintenuff]

so is that a good thing or bad thing??????

[1BadAction]

so is that a good thing or bad thing??????

i know right... i couldnt make heads or tales of what he said. :confused:

[150aintenuff]

at least im not the only one :confused:???????

[E-rudesoldier]

Bombadier GOOD.......for saving Evinrude
Bombadier BAD...........Beer from England its nasty
Better?
I am just foolin I will work on being more clear

[150aintenuff]

so i gues it was both..... or neither...... still :confused:

[1BadAction]

so i gues it was both..... or neither...... still :confused:

he said this beer sucks :D
http://www.bombardier.co.uk/images/home_bombardierpint.jpg

[150aintenuff]

ahhhh ok...... i see...:)

[JW]

I like your Glastron thingy! I've always liked the Glastron stripe style. Like it enough to have bought the old lady a 2003 Glastron I/O for pulling her around tubing all day on the weekends.

[150aintenuff]

I saw that on another members signature and just had to have it thought it was so cute and kinda fit my littleboats look.... (old seaswirl P14) so I thought what the heck...

[thaw ripper]

Bombardier two strocks rock!!!! Lighter is Faster!:rolleyes: