What is the best 21' rough water V-bottom?

[jody165]

I have a tough one for you guys and need some ideas. This is for a racing class I am considering entering:

- Must be V-bottom (no tunnels). Steps, notch, pads, etc are all OK
- Length limit is 21.35 ft bow to transom.
- Must handle very well in rough water but needs to do 80ish with stock merc power. Any Merc engine except 300x (300 is OK)
- No modifications to engine or lower unit are allowed.
- X-dimention restriction: prop shaft even with keel
- No jack plate but brackets are OK.

You guys have some fast v-bottoms so let's hear which brand/model would be the best for this application.

See attached example of what the use will be.

[Fast Shafts]

21 Challenger, 21 Shadow, 22 Velocity (not sure of the LOA) and the 20 Sutphen

[Donat]

Herb @ Intimidator builds the fastest 21 ever - 106MPH with 300X and 94.5MPH with stock 250 I never heard anybody was running faster in 21 VEE than he does.

[jody165]

Heard that Intimidator was an improved Shadow. I am on a budget and was wondering about used boats. Should have stated that.
Do you guys know Shadow boats enough to tell what years and models to look for? Same thing for Challenger.

Thanks for all the help.

[BLUElixir]

What brand of boat is the "Tranquilizer" in the picture above?

[jody165]

Bernico from Belgium.

[Dave S]

I think you will need some real good seats.:cool:

[progression22]

these boat kick ass
Here is the link, you will not find a better built boat
http://www.progressionboats.com/home/22%20OB.html

[blkmtrfan]

Activator of course ;)

There really is many good ones to choose from

[THE HOSER]

superboat

[Dirtbag]

Tuff 21

http://www.tuffmarine.com/

[jody165]

Great help so far. You guys know your chit. I've looked into some of these now.

The Progression is a little too long for the rules I must live under, I checked their website.

BTW, the Shadow, Superboat, Tuff and Intimidator all look extremely similar. Is it safe to assume that they are all based off the old Shadow molds? Have not yet seen a Challenger. Will do some checking on Activator.

I think I can safely assume all of these will ride/handle well in rough. My challenge to find out which is fastest and best handling in small chop and flat water. I should tell you guys the exact application. It is waterski racing. That is the reason for the "no tunnels". The boat has to leave a small path for the skier through the chop. Any kind of tunnel tends to leave a very disturbed path and rides a little too high out of the water in the chop.

Lastly, their has to be some good inexpensive used models available of whatever you guys recommend. Maybe that's the biggest challenge since many of these boats are fast because they are newer and have lighter high tech layups.

Please keep educating me.

[CMC]

Many of these hulls were designed by George Linder ( see Linder for Pres.). He started with Challenger at Lk. Hopatcong N.J. These hulls are now built by Superboat, Intimidator and Tuff. In between they were Shadow for a few years.

[Dirtbag]

Well, the Tuff is a relatively new boat, (2 years or so, and only about 3-4 have been made) so, I guess that counts them out for the inexpensive part...great boat though, would be fun to run in that race.

I sure as hell would't want to be the skier....got any pictures of that chit?:D

[speedyfast]

yeeehaaaa.......my neighbour and good friend tim (youngstream) just took delivery of the dark red tuff (with gold accents) about an hour ago. Just saw his dad drive it into the bay. He has to sell the vector to pitch in on it but that sounds like a sweet ass deal to me.... this should be a fun weekend.......

[speedyfast]

:)
bet tim wishes he didnt have to work tommorow so he could be here;)

[Dirtbag]

Sweet, I've been in that boat..it runs awesome!
Here is a pic of it running...my boat is in the background, where I am pretending I'm passing it!


Where is that boat going to be located?

[T2x]

Originally posted by jody165
Heard that Intimidator was an improved Shadow. I am on a budget and was wondering about used boats. Should have stated that.
Do you guys know Shadow boats enough to tell what years and models to look for? Same thing for Challenger.

Thanks for all the help.

Challengers O/B and I/O were built on Long Island from 1976 through 1978(Great quality included teak trim, custom stainless, seats, tanks, and upholstery), later production was moved to Image Boat Company ( I was co-owner) in Rockaway , NJ and built from 1979 through 1981 (Identical production and hardware). In late 1981 the molds were retooled (deck changed, Hull had transom indented) and the boat was renamed "Shadow" and was joined by it's big brother , The Shadow Cat.

Superboat has an original set of Challenger hull molds bought at auction in 1978....... Intimidator has the original Challenger/Shadow hull mold. All the rest are derivatives, which does not make them either bad nor good, simply not original designs........ There value is up to the builder's ability and laminate schedules/rigging etc.

Most of these boats will dazzle you with their speed, solid construction, and ,especially, handling in choppy water. Certainly the older Challenger's and Shadows need to be refitted and inspected before putting them in competition.

Good luck

T2x

[rpm racing]

Speedyfast,

Where is that picture taken? What lake are you on?

[jody165]

T2x, after just a quick search I have found one that seems to fit my budget and performance needs. Just don't understand who built this boat since it is being sold as a Shadow but built in 1995 by "a guy in New Jersey". Maybe you can shed some light before I dig deeper with the guy who is selling it and proceed to a inspection. Can't have this thing come apart at 90. (will also need some paint!! yikes)

See the boat here:
http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64551

[Dirtbag]

rpm

I think that pic is a lift from marks Website. Most likely taken on Muskoka

[airpacker]

Contact Firewalker on this board. He has a beautifully restored challenger for sale.

[blkmtrfan]

Firewalkers boat:
http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43547&highlight=a+challenger

Very nice and put together right :cool:

[speedyfast]

the boat will reside on lake muskoka, dirtbag ive seen your panther run by my place many times........ rpm the pic is from the website but stay tuned for many many action shots in the weeks to come

rob (firewalker) has been up north for the week wet sanding the stv srv in preparation for john spaithe's work. was at his shop last night and that boat is certainly going to be non other than awsome.

speedy out

[jody165]

Originally posted by Dirtbag
I sure as hell would't want to be the skier....got any pictures of that chit?:D

Here is a pic of one of the skiers behind just such a boat. This is in the harbor area of Long Beach, CA (near LA). He's going about 70 in this pic. They will hit 85-90 in the smoother areas.

[T2x]

Originally posted by jody165
T2x, after just a quick search I have found one that seems to fit my budget and performance needs. Just don't understand who built this boat since it is being sold as a Shadow but built in 1995 by "a guy in New Jersey". Maybe you can shed some light before I dig deeper with the guy who is selling it and proceed to a inspection. Can't have this thing come apart at 90. (will also need some paint!! yikes)

See the boat here:
http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64551

The molds and name were, in fact, "leased" in the 90's, to a "guy in NJ"......Construction was spotty, had no affiliation with the original designers and they made some absolutely stupid mods to the deck..... Molds were also warped by then (20 years old without preventive maintenance)...... Caveat emptor.

T2x

[Dave S]

How much better would a Shadow be over a 21 Checkmate?? I know the Shadow has better strakes and a deeper V, but how much more speed and ride can you expect?? With the same motor and setup.... Hey T2X did you ever see or hear or a 21 with a 426 hemi, I saw it on LI back in the 80s.:)

[T2x]

Originally posted by Dave S
How much better would a Shadow be over a 21 Checkmate?? I know the Shadow has better strakes and a deeper V, but how much more speed and ride can you expect?? With the same motor and setup.... Hey T2X did you ever see or hear or a 21 with a 426 hemi, I saw it on LI back in the 80s.:)

There is really no comparison......other than in flat water. The Shadow will walk away from the Checkmate as soon as the chop exceeds a foot, out handle it and out turn it at speed. The Shadow has more bottom and a "non constant vee" that was the hallmark of the Eltro/Challenger/ Shadow series, and this feature, as well as the pad gives more speed vs. size than the traditional constant vee bottom on the Checkmate. The construction is also totally different and the laminate schedule on the Shadows was much more labor intensive and structurally stronger than the C-mate.

Yes I did see that hemi Challenger..and a bunch of other 21 I/O's. We turbocharged a small block 260 M/C back in the day....and aside from a series of explosions;) ;) ......got a substantial speed boost. The main problem with the high HP I/O applications was the lack of transom height needed for the Speedmaster drives of the time (#2's and 3's). I'd love to see one with a shorty #5 drive and big HP.

T2x

[T2x]

Here's an I/O.......

[T2x]

Here's the Shadow version............

[airpacker]

Hey Speedy. I will be up running around the lake this weekend with my buddy Phil. Keep an eye out for the dual Daytonas:)
P.S. please tell Tim to learn EASY. I drove that sucker and it will surprise you how fast it gets up on the pad.

[Ing]

Don't know how they ride but the 20' Sutphen is still built on Lake Hopatcong. I know they're are not cheap.

[CMC]

Hey T2X, I grew up with a guy who's Dad had the twin Turbo Challenger on Lk. Hopatcong. His name was Al and he owned a bakery in Morristown. That sucker would shoot flames and bang like nobodys business. That was it, after that ride I was hooked, and still am today. The engine was pulled years ago for a more modest 454, but it still cruises Lk. Hopatcong!!

[at100plus]

Q: What is the best 21' rough water V bottom?

A: The one with two V bottoms side by side a tunnel in between and a serial # that starts with DUX