Why do we seem weak on OMC advice and help around here?

[Raceman]

I've noticed lately that when OMC questions are asked, they don't get the same quick attention that the Merc ones do. I realize there are probably more Mercaholics around here than OMC guys, but still............... seems like it could be better.

Maybe Al and Bill don't have time to read every post, but seems like a lot of OMC questions get answered with generic answers from Merc guys, like Marcus and I were doing on a question about a low cyl ("compression question" posted by Fluid Grooves), or either frequently addressed by newbies, who we don't know the extent of their experience or knowledge.

Another example is a post titled "1200 RPM loss" that's currently on the first page. It was first posted well over a month ago without any response, and now he's brought it back up the board himself.

I think we can do better.

[MTOLLEY]

Thank you" Raceman" for posting what i wanted to say but didnt dare. i have posted this same question on several boards without a response. seems no one wants to talk about old motors... i came here since theis board seems to have the most info on the net and i try to be patient and give people time to respond, but alas none as of yet. im going to add some mpre info on the things ive done sincs the original post. thanks for your concern. mt

[H2OPERF]

Exactly.Dave

[Instigator]

here too and most of the Guru's have told me the exact same thing

[MTOLLEY]

Guys i know where your coming from with wanting to keep silent. ive been building race cars for years and it never fails to amaze me at the thing people will say to tryand intimidate or put you down. we all came to this board to try and help one another and share our experience and knowledge. i would be abliged to any answer that some gives me about anything seeing that hes not earning one damn cent for shareing this with me. i try to do the same for everyone here but i do refuse to waste my time typing a response to someone when the question has been answered only to bring my post numbers up.

[BarryStrawn]

Is it really any different for the other brands? I only read a fraction of the posts here but the majority of the technical help seems weak regardless of brand. Most appears to be guesses and speculation from other members with limited experience. Lots of parts changers around, fewer mechanics.

Another part of the problem is the way questions are asked and limited information. Well defined questions seem to get answers.

[Instigator]

Barry

[Scream And Fly]

Here is part of a paste from another recent post I made:


"... since when is this a "tech only" forum? This is a place to have fun and communicate. A lot has been accomplished here through friendships, fund raisers, events, and yes, good tech advice. Must this forum be judged by boat setup advice alone? This forum is home to the best qualified high performance boaters in the world. But that' just part of what makes this forum great. It's the interaction between members that are here to have fun and enjoy the sport."


Like any community of people, there are those that are experts in certain fields, and those that are not. There is plenty of sound tech advice here, but not everyone should be expected to provide it. Yes, most of our readers own and run Mercury outboards, but this forum is home to some of the most knowledgable Mercury and OMC people in the world. That's a fact. These people are here because they enjoy it though, not because they feel an obligation to be here. When someone throws a question out to a forum, it's a community discussion, however, direct questions to specific people usually accomplish more results. The search function is also quite useful. :)


Greg

[Forkin' Crazy]

Originally posted by Charlie M
I have been working on these monsters for almost 19 Years and every time I open my mouth I get some EXPERT with a better answer and how I am stupid, so I just keep my mouth shut

I can relate to that! I claim to be no guru, but I do have some experience with OBs. I have made my opinion on some bad advise; that I know to be right. No back up from any OMC guys either......

I just hope the guy and/or the people that took his advice didn't get hurt when their **** broke.

It's hard to blame some of the real gurus from picking up and leaving.

A big THANK YOU goes to the ones (the few) That are still here....

[staylor]

I ran Mercs back in the 60s and early 70s, mostly older motors from the KGs to the MK55-58. Switched to OMCs in the late 70s and was surprised at the lack of high performance parts that were affordable. I switched back to Merc on my small motors in the 80s and on my big motors in 2002. I finally gave up on them due to the bankruptcy and reliability issues on the last 2 V-6s I owned. I've tried to answer questions about OMCs here from time to time, mostly about props and set-ups. Once in a while a Merc guy may give an answer that isn't really correct for OMC, but its up to the reader to filter out the responses. I just did a carb rebuild on a little OMC 7.5, which took about 15 minutes after I spent an hour removing parts so I could get at the carb. If it had been a small Merc it would have taken 15 minutes to pull the carb followed by an hour trying to figure out if I had the right combination of parts in the rebuild kit. Either motor takes the same amount of time- it's just allocated to different tasks.

[quickonstep]

"There just aren't that many OMCs "

are you kidding me? there are TONS more omc's than they are mercs.. think about it.. omc's are generally cheaper than mercs, therefor the begginner boater would lean more towards a omc.. ive been on the water for 22 years and i run a omc.. 1 because its cheap, and 2, i have decnet connections for parts..

I saw the water cops around here ALL use omc's even dnr and the park rangers..

and on a note more dealing with this thread... IM WITH CHARLIE M on this issue..

Jesse

[staylor]

Sure, there's lots of OMC family boat motors around, but not many performance motors. And the OMC performance motors have had a lot of problems related to electronics, VRO's, Ficht's, and so on. I ran a 140 crossflow VRO that was a great engine as long as you changed the VRO every 2 years. My 175 crossflow was always dropping a cylinder when you least expected it. My 225XP was a good motor, requiring a new VRO and some electrical parts in the first 50 hours. I sold it with 100 hours to a poor fellow who didn't know the sound of a VRO warning horn..RIP 225XP. I also remember trying to get parts during the bankruptcy- and all the owners who got screwed out of their warranties by Bombardier. Conversely, My little 9.9 and 15 OMCs were great fishing motors on 14 ft boats, but I'm talking performance engines here. When I sold my 225XP, my OMC dealer for 25 years now sold OMC and Merc. I asked him, Ficht or Opti? I bought Opti and have had no problems in 3 years. Just my 2 cents, as I was a loyal OMC man for decades.

[Raceman]

Personally, I think the "know nothings running the gurus off" is a lame old line that's been around before, and doesn't have much substance. Some people just get tired of it and move on to other stuff. It'd be equally as weak to believe that people quit posting because they get tired of the same questions being repeated by new people. I've heard that one too. The fact is, there's a damn deep knowledge pool around here presently. I'd start namin' all those guys, but for fear of forgetting somebody I won't. I think we do a pretty good job of challenging bad advice around here, sometimes better than answering a question in the first place when it's posted. I DO think it's unfortunate when people like Charlie M withhold advice because somebody less knowledgeable might disagree. Sometimes that's just an opportunity to explain something in more detail and say WHY it's that way. I don't think you have to be disrespectful to disagree with somebody, but there'll always be differences of opinion, if for no other reason because some problems don't have a definate answer.

Actually, I think some of the wanna be's who post tech advice outta their ass are pretty much the ones that get frustrated and quit.

[B.Mac]

.............and I'm glad to get it from whoever is willing to take the time to post an answer. It's up to me to filter out the innaccurate responses. I personally appreciate all you OMC guys as I have a need for speed on a "beer budget" :D
My experiance has been great overall around here, and I've taken my share of flaming (which I probably deserved anyway) but I have noticed a "take my ball and go home" attitude from a few OMC fellas, unlike the Merc guys.

Alot of guys have been a tremendous help to me around here ......... Racer, ON THE HUNT, Prof OB, Charlie M, B.Leonard
and I gotta admit, yes .......even Instigator:p
There's been alot more help than I could ever get anywhere else, that's for sure......A genuine thankyou to all you guys, OMC guys, Merc guys, Yammi guys new guys, old guys and wannabe's too :D
B.MAC:D

[RRRevinrude]

a lot of it is the way the questions are put out there...its tough to diagnose problems even when the motor is right there in front of you much less when you only have partial information....omc electrical problems can be almost impossible to "static test"....i've had bad stators test good and good stators test bad....unfortunatly you wind up "throwing parts at it " till you find the problem...this is fine if you have them laying around...but i wouldn't tell somebody it needs a powerpack-when it could just as easily be a weak stator or a timer base...i gave up on omc ignition and put on yamaha stuff and have never had any further electrical problems BUT-most guys on here don't want to spend $1000 to $1500 converting them....racer has the smarts to test all the omc stuff and i'm sure several others on here do as well but the average guy who has to go purchase these parts one at a time could spend a bunch of money fixing the problem....and again-it can be very tough to diagnose them on the internet..i would rather give no advise than tell someone to go buy a specific part only to find out it didn't fix it..............greg

[Forkin' Crazy]

One reason that you don't really miss the Merc guys leaving is there are so many of them. Like looking for a set of double hump small block chevy heads at a swap meet.

"The take the ball and go home" reference happens from riducule and disrespect. If it is up to us/you to filter out bad info, then how is this done with the new comer? How will he filter out bad advice when there is no one here to step to the plate and tell the moron (giving bad advise) to shut up; he may learn something?

Raceman, were you around when Prof O/B posted on the angelfire message boards?...Geeze how long ago was that? :confused: I dare say that his reason was the same. I have had the opportunity to meet him several times. What a nice fellow. I hope that people now have the courage to step up to the plate and ward off the no nothing morons that post BS. BTW I think he didn't post here for over 5 years.

Staylor, I don't want to get into a pissing match about who is better, OMC or Merc, but.......... All but one of my boats is powered by OMC. Two are 30 and 25 years old and have never had the heads off. My V6 is 24 years old. I have been running it way out of its intended 5750 rpm "red line" for a few years now. Yes I have had electronic problems, but what do you expect with electronics that are a quarter of a century old? Oh, BTW I don't run any VRO systems. I advise anyone to disable them and run premix.... Merc, OMC or Yami. I have seen them all fail.

[woody]

With the search forums , you can find almost anything you need .But it's not the same as chating with one of pros, when you get the chance. I for example , sometimes wonder if I have said something to offend someone. I log on to this site nearly every day, this is truely the performance boat cap.

[BarryStrawn]

Another thing to consider is that a lot of information and help gets handled via email and private messages instead of in the forums. Especially corrections and warnings about advice or services from particular members. Not much different than any other social or business situation where you make take someone aside and discuss something in private. I don't know if this is unique to Johnson and Evinrude issues but I suspect the same happens for other brands. I occasionally see threads on other message boards that are extensions of Mercury advice posted here.

[us1]

Isn’t it just a simple as there are 100 Merc guys for every 1 OMC guy?

[Markus]

Norris, I have noticed the same thing. OMC questions do not tend to get the same attention. It is the same with Yamaha questions, by the way.

I think it is due to the same reasons a lot of people have stated already:

1) A lot of the questions are "why is my engine not running like it should?" questions that could be resolved using the search function since it is something with the OMC ignition system in most cases. Those questions are not very exciting to answer and thus don't get answered in many cases

2) There are a lot fewer people with really deep OMC (or Yamaha or Mercury engines other than the 2.0/2.4/2.5 liter V6 for that sake) experience than with really deep Mercury 2.0/2.4/2.5 liter experience here.

3) Some of the OMC gurus, like Al Stoker, don't seem to like to write long posts of the kind required to give a satisfactory answer to the questions described in 1) without appearing to be rude to the (frequently inexperienced) person asking the question

4) Some other OMC gurus, like Wayne Taylor, prefer to answer with a private email

5) A lot of people, including myself, only read threads about engines they own themselves or consider buying. Therefore, a lot of OMC threads don't get read very much.

I do believe that we should jointly try to help people, though, even if it just involves telling them to use the search feature.

[B.Mac]

Originally posted by Forkin' Crazy
"The take the ball and go home" reference happens from riducule and disrespect. If it is up to us/you to filter out bad info, then how is this done with the new comer? How will he filter out bad advice when there is no one here to step to the plate and tell the moron (giving bad advise) to shut up; he may learn something?

I agree that bad advice needs to be quickly and openly corrected but with a little respect to the "moron"........ultimately it's my motor that's gonna run good or blow up, so ultimately I'm the guy responsible for making the final decision.
Therefore I want to understand the problem, not just know the solution.......
If I ask a question and I'm fortunate enough to get advice, good or bad, from an expert or from a newbie, I will seek clarification (search function) or a more in depth explanation......not because I want to disrespect anybody, because I certainly do not, but because I want to understand for myself. To answer your question, I filter out the bad information by using good 'ol fashioned common sense.......:D
B.MAC:D

[MattGreen]

An awful lot of OMC questions could be solved by the owners buying and READING and FOLLOWING the troubleshooting guide in a FACTORY service manual. These motors are not that hard to work on, I can't understand how everybody manages to bugger them up in near-stock form.

I agree with what others mentioned above about experts being shat upon by inexperienced boaters. I'm not saying I'm one of those experts, but the process does occur.

Matt

[Rickracer]

A lot of problems could be solved by a service manual. Factory manuals are the best, but a Clymer or Seloc manual is better than nothing. Even better is a combination of both. Often factory manuals assume that one is factory trained and has all the appropriate equipment to test with. Aftermarket manuals will sometimes suggest alternative procedures or equipment, or having a dealer perform the portion of the testing necessary to solve the problem. :cool:

[H2OPERF]

I wasnt gonna say it but i think the real problem is while all the omc boys are out runnnin the hell outa their boats all the merc gurus got plenty of time for screamandfly cause their powerheads are sitttin on the bench blowed up.The post was gettin too serious had to break it up.LOL Dave

[Rickracer]

:D :D :D