Mr. Racemore...

[T-REX]

Yes Mr. Roark Summerford design and built the LTV(Laser tunnel vee)...then upon leaving laser he built the STV...I am no expert about the STV's, but I think the "Needle Nose STV" had basically the same bottom az the LTV...The LTV molds are still laying in the grass @ Laser(or were several months ago)...now az I said, I'm no expert, and don't claim to be, but even though Roark designed the LTV, How can he start another company, or move to another company and produce another boat with the same bottom az the LTV which still belongs to Laser...They had anuther boat called a "Stallion" that had the same bottom az the LTV...Now I'm not questioning the legality of Mr. Roarks early STV's or any of his acctions...I have personally talked to him and have learned a great deal from him, and he wuz very willing to help me and answer my questions...I'm jus trying to figger out where they draw the line and who haz the final word...REX

[BK]

I'm not sure how Roark built the STV, or even if this is really a splash. Could it be just the design idea?

But remember-- Prior to 1998, there was really not much that could be done about hull-splashing. The people who did take a splasher to court would usually find themselves with a confused judge trying to determine a "10% change" and the suit most likely dropped. It was very frustrating.

The costs of tooling a raw plug was SO enormous, not to mention very difficult, that some start up companies would simply by-pass that expense and R&D, and just splash a hull without much worry of facing recourse.

It was an industry-wide problem -- and sadly, in some cases became standard protocol.

But all that ended in 1998 with The Vessel Hull Design Protection Act, Title 17, Chapter 13 of the United States Code.

[T-REX]

I really never worried about this stuff...I never had a earge ta splash a boat...building a boat iz a royal pain in tha ass...I quess I jus stuck my noze wher I had no bussiness...Thanks BK, But I wuzn't accusing Roark of splashing, jus trying to make a point, that apparently got lost sumwhere in the shuffle...thanks again, T-REX:confused:

[Racemore]

I think there is a line but not very well defined.When I started outboard hotboating the STV was a tunnel vee not a mod vp and Im not sure who built the first center pod picklefork tunnel may BK would know but it seemed like they came out of the woodwork everywhere,the 19 daytona,STV,Mirageand then Baker but it was a design that made a true tunnel a more user friendly boat.I don't have all the answers but I felt that if I could make the YT a better and faster hull then why not try.If we want to progress we have to take the tecno we have and build on it.My grand father built the first Lowboy heavy equipment trailer for a co called BB Mc Cormick and sons to haul to S America to build roads. He didn't care about patents or I would be a billionaire.He also made the first pair of adjustable pliers,so what was his attitude,I learned alot from him.How many brands of adjustable pliers are there,who pays who?Who cares?Anyway I thank Rorke,Brad and all the others who have giving there time and effort to help make us go FASTER.

I hear your pretty fast yo self T. :)

[BK]

I'm sure that if a raw plug was easy to make, and didnt cost a fortune to design and build -- then there would not be such an uproar about using someone's hull as YOUR OWN plug.

But because a plug *DOES cost a mega-fortune for the originating company -- it just doesn't make sense that the splashing companies can bypass the COSTLIEST part of boat building, and skip right into the mold making.

When the two boats are placed side by side (Original vs. Splash) -- The price differences between the two boats will be noticably different --- because, obviously, the splashing company will have NO costly prototyping expenses to recover. Even though splash-only companies are notorious for producing weak quality boats, there are a lot of customers who will buy a dittoed boat based on price alone.

I saw a mention of DCB earlier and thought everyone should know -- DCB was actually doing work for Eliminator -- when they went into business for themselves, they "PAID" Elimintor and bought their molds. Even though they probably had the opportunity to do it, from what information I was given, they did not splash Eliminator.

Racemore - I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Tunnel Vee vs. Mod VP? Roark labelled his own personal name for the Mod-VP design - STV. I know he originally had a design that looked like an inverted vee on the center pod - but even that one was still a Mod-VP. (Mod VP is a designated class of APBA -- Modified Vee Production Class). This class, ModVP, included both Pointed Bow (Stoker, Allison, Blackbird etc) and Pickle forked boats (STV, Mirage etc).

There have been ALL sorts of variations to the picklefork, tunnel and Mod-VP designs. The problem in boat building is not people 'using other people's ideas', but the blatant PLUG SPLASHING. Nobody worries about "similar" designs or an ideas being incorporated into someone else's hull, (unless it's a VERY unique feature that deserves a patent, which comes up very rarely). If anyone wants to build a boat that "*Looks* a lot like someone else's boat", I say --- MORE POWER TO THEM! Go for it! ;)

BUT!!!! They MUST go into the boat building business like everybody else has to as well --- From step one: Using *THEIR OWN* talent and $$$ cash to tool up a raw, prototype PLUG.

[Racemore]

In reference to the tunnelV I call the V bottom with sponsons a tunnel V and a mod vp a modified tunnel or a true tunnel with a center pod. What do you consider a Mega Fortune? I think it is a little extreme to say that it would cost so much.For example before Jack at Full Throttle Powerboats started in small boats he built a 35'ocean racing Cat to run Pro stock in Offshore.From the time he walked in to Home Depot it took a year and a half to build the hull and deck plugs,molds and the boat itself rigged with 3 2.5os mercs,F 16 canopys,interior/seats&gauges on the trailer at just under $100,000.00. $50k of that was motors and canopys. Fuel cells and all the hardware gauges,throttle/shift box and steering for trip Mercs is about 10 more. 5 in the trailer. This puts it at around $1000.00 a foot for plugs,molds and parts.I would think that would be a good baseline estimate and is not what I would call a fortune.As far as me popping the YT it was not in production and I wanted to change the bottom, sides and deck for a raceboat to prove it can run with the STV,s and Mirage,s.The funny thing is my mind must have been read because my intentions would have produced a Quatermaster style boat before the QM was built. Imagine that! Someone splashed my dream!

Footnote: Jacks prostock boat was enjoying a commanding lead for the World championship in Key West when they broke a propshaft on the final lap. His talent is showing in Supersport today. Can't wait for the return to Drag,watchout Boys & Girls.
:eek: :D :cool:

[BK]

If you walk into any boat company, they'll tell you that $1000 per foot is about standard cost for the MOLD materials alone. Labor costs are not included here.

So if you built GOOD molds for a 35 foot boat (Hull and deck) You will spend at least $35,000 in materials -- just for the molds.

A mold is expensive,...But you can't build a mold unless you have a *PLUG*. And the *PLUG* - designed from SCRATCH -- is the MOST expensive part of original MOLD making.

The Mod-VP class first started out as Vee-bottom boats -- Called simply "VP" (Vee Production). When tunnels were added to the bottom of the VEE, they changd the class term to "Mod-VP".

In reference to Tunnel-Vee, Roark is the person that coined that term for use with his companies name -- STV (Summerford Tunnel Vee). Even his tunnel boats are also known as "Summerford Tunnel Vee's". In general, a tunnel boat with a "Center Pod" is considered to have a "MOD-VP/TUNNEL VEE" style bottom, and it really does not matter if it is a pointed bow or a pickle fork.

Hope that helps! :)

[Racemore]

I beg to differ in your mold pricing but I know from experience not to debate with the opposit sex.Lets keep this to an 18' scale and I would say I can build deck&hull plugs and molds for 30K and I don't build JUNK but i can make s##t shine.I do agree that labor is relavent and hiring someone to do what I can do myself would increase cost. Materials are flat rate and the quality materials cost more and using the best available boats like a Mirage can be built for 3000.00 to the rubrail,labor excluded.Kevlar and Carbon fiber of course is extra.;)

[BK]

Hey Racemore -- I've got a guy asking me if you are for hire -- if you can build a raw plug at incredibly low fees , he says he could really use an experienced plug builder for an all new design.

Are you interested in doing a 20/21??
I'm not joking -- this is for real. Good wood plug builders who can build from blueprints are pretty rare, and inexpensive ones are even more rare! He doesn't care if the wood "Shines", ;) he only cares if the specs are true and lines are straight. The hired help can do the shining and waxing ;) Contact me at boatkitten@aol.com and please include any past projects you've completed.

Even if you aren't interested in doing a raw plug, can you still post which boat plugs you are personally responsible for? Were molds built directly from them? Did you build a running plug that could be rigged out and tested? And this plug run exactly as hoped on your very FIRST testing run? Or did it have to be reworked and retooled again?

And lastly, are these boats still being built and by whom? Are they still using the same molds that you had built? Can we contact them?

Thanks!
BK

[Racemore]

What a frisky kitten you are.Plugs,Are you talking about a Mirage of old because I prefer to splash.Wood,My wood working experience ranges from building houses,and additions to model boats and planes when I was a little younger. I learned a little about wood boats helping rebuild my fathers Borums and old Chris-Crafts.

When did I say I was an experienced Plug builder anyway.BK the fact is I have talent running out of my ass and I can do anything I want to.I do have a MIC and haven't used it,Instead I built boats from existing hulls on their on #s.I also have restored/rebuilt many boats,I dont get paid enough for what I do according to everybody.They are right.I take pride in what I do and my work shows that.I did a little work on Jacks new 4 seater plug after he ruffed it in and made the mold with him.Childsplay.

To quote the phrase on my buddies(Mr. Custom)Jax,Fl.
"We are as good as you are rich"


So what do you need done?I know you could have used me when you built your plugs,NO HISSING I was just pokin fun.

And yes a 21-22' is what am thinking.The market is wide open for an updated fast and more comfortable ride.:cool:

You can always improve,you can't stop retooling or you will be left behind.STRAIGHT,all of my repairs or modifcations are straighter than the boat I'm working on.I'm going to buy a scanner this week and I will show you projectsif you wish.

If I was to build a plug it would be for my own boat,it is the only way I can justify time to money ratio of which i'm criticised.

Got to go,Have a great day! Meow :p :D ;) :cool: