Twister II

[thom]

Any idea of value???
Owner/driver/national championship winner with this TII while it was in TIIx trim.

[RRRevinrude]

contact raceman--he may have some space left in the museum :D :D :D ..........greg

[crazy horse]

Where is the engine located? P.S. I sent you a PM.;)

[Raceman]

I'd say $1500 to $2500 depending on how bad somebody's looking. Please tell me somebody didn't put T2 style hood pin holes through the top of that T2X when they removed the bungie style hold downs from the sides of that cowl:eek: :eek: One other thing that hurts the originality of this particular motor is the fact that the factory gearcase adapter is missing and it's got a home made one attaching the gearcase. This would effectively raise the transom height around 2" or so, and also means the driveshaft is whacked and would have to be dealt with somehow if somebody was putting it back to original.

No question the old race stuff is gettin' higher in price, but the AOMCI collectors have pretty much shunned the 6 cyl stuff and have preferred to pay gold for the little 2 cyls, and sometimes the 4's. I bought a complete T2 with the Speedmaster gone and a shiftable gearcase subsituted at the Jasper boat races either 2 or 3 years ago for 750 and a complete T2X drop on with cowl from this board a couple years ago for $1000.

It suits me fine if the 6 cyl stuff always lags behind the little motors because maybe that'll keep em in the hands of the people who really admire em rather than the speculators.

Crazy, I'm assumin' that PNW means Pacific Northwest. There was a lot of boatracing up around Washington and there're still a lot of old race motors up there.

[Bill Gohr]

picked one up complete with extra stuff and race trim for $1400. I agree with RM on the value.

[thom]

Yeap, the T2x cover has been drill'd. It's a racer not a trailer queen. Got a second T2x cover too, but it has not only been drilled,...Some pre-current-owner-Lame-O stuck decals on top of the original striping.
I probably goofed when assembling the pieces for the picture. Gulp!
It has the original 12" driveshaft and the chunk I left in there was probably used on a T1 or with a T2x mid-section. I'm sure the correct plate was laying right there, but I'm just a lowly grasshopper trying to help the owner out. I'm sure any technical questions can be answered by the owner if needed. He'll be monitoring this thread no doubt.
There are more T2 powerhead components too. Maybe even enough to assembly (3) more running powerheads and a fourth for display purposes, but the inventory an inspections for quality of individual parts won't be completed until,...I'm guessin',...next week sometime.

[Raceman]

Thom, if that driveshaft reaches the bottom of the powerhead on that adapter it's a custom length. The Twister/Twister 1/T2 gearcase adapter is 2 1/2" tall (I just measured my Twister) and theres about about 5" difference between a 15 inch and a champ (T2X style) mid, although the champ is frequently referred to as 12". With the thickness of that adapter plate it'd be off a couple of inches in one direction or the other from any stock driveshaft if it fits that combo.

I'd be a prospect for both the Twister 1 and all the T2/T2X stuff y'all have if y'all are willin' to crate and ship it and if I can live with the price.

[Raceman]

Incidentally, I've never compared the bolt pattern in the early inline race housings such as the Super BP, Twister, Twister 1 and T2, (which are all the same at the bottom) to the early 6 bolt champ like came on the T2X and first T3's, but it never dawned on me that they would be the same. Just a guess, but I would think they're different.

[thom]

These speedmasters are the early V6 right-hand gearcases with the 12" DS. They don't use any adapter plate when used with a C6 mid-section and the T2 powerhead.
Also,...Thanks for the offer on the T1. Will do further internal checks and respond back to you. Both T1 units are genuine T1 powerheads and mids.
Thom

[thom]

And,...If we do come to terms on any or all,...I will build a crate Carl K would have been proud of! :-)
Thom

[Raceman]

Thom, I always like these discussions because (A) I think I know everything (B) sometimes I find out I don't.................. so don't take it personally. Most of the people who frequent this place know of me bein' that way and take it with a grain of salt.

I've never seen any Twister (red stripes) Twister 1 (blue stripes) or C6/T2 that left the factory without the 2 1/2" adapter between the mid section and the gearcase and don't think Merc ever sold em that way. Of all the SSM's and MC1 Speedmasters I've owned and have presently (probably 15 right now) I've never seen but 2 factory driveshaft lengths............ the one for the 15" mid with the 2 1/2 adapter and the one for the 5" shorter mid (T2x/champ) with the approx 3/4" thick plate. Of course the longer of the 2 would be almost 2" to long for the flat plate installation, and the shorter one would be somewhere in the 2" range too short with the flat plate. To further complicate all this math, when Merc started shipping T3 upgrades to privateer racers who were previously running the T2X, there was a spacer required under the powerhead that was almost an inch thick because of the difference in the crankshaft spline height in relation to the bottom mounting surface of the V6 powerhead compared to the old inline 6. Of course when they changed from the SSM over to the #6 & #4 Speedmasters, they adjusted the driveshaft length in these two where the spacer ring under the powerhead was no longer available.

The flat plate on the 15" mid would cause that engine to run almost 2" higher propshaft height than a std T2 or 1500XS, which would probably have let it run flat on the transom on an Allison that would've otherwise have to come up some, but seems like it would've required a very unconventional transom height on any tunnel of that era that would've required whackin'.

In spite of all my opinions on all that, that probably bored you anyhow, I'd still be interested in all that old stuff. I'm also desperately in need of a couple of the 2 1/2" gearcase adapters and a couple of T2X powerhead adapters also (inline 6 to 12" midsection adapter) to complete some of my other old projects.

I'd also like to know if y'all are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that Merc built some factory engines with a flat plate at the bottom like in the picture. It would certainly represent a contradiction to something I've accepted as the only configuration for many years.

[thom]

Raceman,...Sir:
I am but a lowly grasshopper trying to help a retired racer with severe medical problems. Everyday I learn something new.
An example would be in response to the "have holes been drilled in this T2x cover."
I have since learned that this engine started life as a T2X with the T2x covers present and the one photographed. Neither T2x cover has had holes drilled in the top for the "hood pin" style cover retainers found on a T2.
My belief has been that a T2 was only refered to as a T2x because it began life with a bolt on tuner, and an adapter plate, and was presented to the racing crews on a V-6 racing mid-section and the same gearcase pictured.
The L/Us are "early style V-6 right-hand rotating double pinion refered to as 12 inch, and have not been altered." (a quote from the owner)
The original T2x mid with a center mounted ram has been sold.
If I have spoken inaccurately on spacers and adapters it is not out of any intent to mis-lead.
Keep an eye on me. :-) It is all good stuff. I've got lots of pictures and will have a detailed inventory of the specific items available - hopefully by next weekend.
Send me a PM and I'll shoot you pictures.
Thom

[Doubledog]

I'll take that 3 blade round ear off your hands. Need one for a wall-hanger / conversation peice. Make me a sweet deal on it.

[Bill Gohr]

The adaptor's I have are 3 3/4" thick. If you make your plate out of 3/4" stock a 12" should bolt right on.

[Raceman]

Bill, I ain't followin' yo' math. There's 4" difference between a T2 and T2X driveshaft from the factory. If you take the 2 1/2" of the stock T1/T2 adapter, but add back the 5/8 to 3/4" thickness of the T2X gearcase adapter, that means the bare housings are 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" difference in height. That seems to me like if you're gonna put a T2X lower on a T2 mid with a 3/4" plate the driveshaft is gonna be at least an inch too short.

If there's a mid that requires 3 1/2 inches of adapter to get back to the longer driveshaft I either haven't seen it or haven't paid enough attention to notice. Now you're gonna make me go measure every damn mid section that I own.:rolleyes:

[Bill Gohr]

is I have 2 factory G/C adaptors side by side they are 3 3/4" tall. Those make the motor able to use a 15" GC. I made my engine take a 3/4" thick adaptor. I call a 15 - 3 a 12"? Don't get up......it's Sunday. I'm going out back any way, I'll measure the shafts to see the diff, but you would think the X GC would go right on???????

[Raceman]

Here's the reason I like to always follow these things through:

My red striped Twister, which is very original and has never been apart has a 2 1/2" plate. I've always assumed that the plates from the Twister through the Twister 1 and T2 were the same, although I've seen some minor differences in exhaust relief at the rear. After your comments yesterday, I measured one of the T2's and found that the plate is an inch taller. This obviously means that the T2 housing I checked is about an inch shorter than the Twister, which I find VERY surprising. I've got 3 complete T2's as well as several Twister and Twister 1 housings and I'm gonna measure em all today, along with several BP & Super BP's and see where the differences are.

Although I'm aware that a handful of 20" Twisters were made for offshore boats, I've always been of the opinion that all of the short design housings starting with the BP's were the same length.

Now I'm curious not only when the change was made (probably beginning with C6) but why.

[crazy horse]

RM, Remember that MC-1 that I have with the odd driveshaft? It was a inch shorter than a stock 15" center section driveshaft. The guy has always said that it came that way and has never been cut. Would it be the case that would fit the shorter adaptor your talkin about?

[Raceman]

Dave, it must be, but it still leaves some contradictions among my old junk. I've just never seen but 2 driveshaft lengths on the old 70's and newer inline stuff, or 3 if you count the 20" motors.

I've just spent about an hour measurin' all my inline race stuff and I'm completely stumped. The bare housing heights on the BP, Super BP, Twister, Twister 1, and T2 are all approx 12 1/2 inches. (NO gearcase adapter of any type) The gearcase adapter on my Twister, that's probably the most unused original in the world is a little over 2 1/2 inches. I also have another adapter on the shelf that's the same dimension. All three of my T2's that are assembled have adapters that are in the 3 1/2 inch range. All of these measurements are approximations done just by line of sight with a tape measure, so they could be off an eighth or so. I know for a fact that a T2 will take a 1500XS gearcase with stock driveshaft length because I've done it a couple of times. This would seem to imply that the Twister and Twister 1's have a unique driveshaft lenght that's not shared by any other engine, but I have an MC1 Speedmaster that supposedly came on a Twister 1 and I've had it on an 1500XS.

There's somewhere between 3/4" and an inch missing here somewhere and I can't figure it out.

[Bill Gohr]

exhaust housing sdifferent lenghts????? compensated by the adaptor?

[Raceman]

Bill, I measured a BP, 2 Super BP's, 2 Twisters, a Twister 1, and 3 T2's and every bare mid in that group measured about 12 1/2 inches. Like I said, I'm baffled. Just for a reference, I'm gonna measure a 1500XS from powerhead to gearcase mounting surfaces, but I'm guessing it's gonna be the same as the T2 with the 3 1/2" adapter. (or maybe it's 3 3/4, I'm using a tape measure and a flashlight, standing on my head and leaning over other junk measuring some of this stuff)

[Bruster]

in parts, unless someone is willing to pay what it's worth. (2X what you were quoted) The gearcase will sell for $1,000 propellers for say $250 ea, $500 for the mid, $1,500 or more for the powerhead, $250 for the cowlings etc. You get the picture. Don't give it away........

[Raceman]

Bruce, I hope you're right, because I've got tons of this stuff on the shelf that is apparently worth a lot more than I think it is, but I've never seen those kinds of prices anywhere, including E Bay. Those old SSM blades usually don't fetch 100. on E Bay and I've bought 4 or 5 in the last several years off E Bay myself, including one brand new in the box for 88. As far as SSM's, I guess my present stack is worth about 15K based on those estimates and I'd sure help somebody load em in the back of their truck for that. I might even deliver em myself.

There was a complete T2X drop on including the cowl and bottom pan on this board within the last couple of years for either 1000 or 1200. There's also been a complete T2 with tons of spares advertised here off and on for a couple of years, I believe in the 4K range with no offers last I heard.

Since there's no practical application for any of this stuff now, it really gets to be worth whatever some collector will pay for it to hang on the wall.

[Bruster]

OK:rolleyes:

[thom]

Thanks everybody!
Currently verbal purchase agreements have been made for these,...The Holy Grail of Mercury Racing History,...
I really appreciate the input received and the chance to visit with some really super Meraholic fans of the Black Tower!!!
As soon as somebody spots the "Anthony Bros' jet-star 15" I posted and has to own it,...I can get back to lurking! It's posted somewhere in scream&fly.
Thom :-)

[Ed Mc.]

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61116

[xskid1]

not sure of the twisters and t-1, but on a t-2 mid, the adapter is 3 5/8 tall, and uses a standard 15 in. driveshaft. the stock adapter can be removed and a 5/8 in. thick spacer can be made to mount the lower unit. this shortens the height of the mid section by 3 in., the difference in length between a 15 in. driveshaft and a 12 in. driveshaft is 3 1/2 in. (the 15 in. stuff is actually 15 1/2, the 1/2 gets lost in the mix, because the difference between a 20 in. long shaft and 15 in. short shaft is 4 1/2 in. and not 5 in., thus making the difference between a 15 in. short shaft and a 12 in. shaft, 3 1/2 in., not 3 in.) anyway, when using a 5/8 spacer plate, you can use a t-2x (12 in.) lower unit, but the splines on the driveshaft will overlap 1/2 in. less than normal in the crankshaft. this setup can be used, but obviously the connection between driveshaft and crankshaft is not as strong. I believe the setup in the picture is this. the plate I had was 5/8 thick, the plate in the pic might be thinner, but anyway, this was a quick way to have a shorter midsection if you didn't have t-2x stuff laying around, as most of us don't.

[Mark75H]

There was a factory version of the short T-2 using the flat plate as well. Evidence came out when AK D found the water tube length specs