Hydrostream and the Outboard Culture

[pyro]

It's funny how the outboard phenomenon grew and declined over the years, yet much differently in each region.

When I was growing up, our lake had a lot of Checkmates, Glastrons and Bajas. There were a couple of Hydrostream V-hulls on the chain of lakes, and our neighbor 2 doors down had a sparkle red Viper with an inline 1500. My Dad had a '87 Baja with a Merc XR2. We raced a Glastron cuddy with a Laser 220 one time and ran neck and neck down the lake. There were some 18' jetters on the lake chain too, we harassed them regularly. There were quite a few "beater" tri-hulls with outboard power. There was a guy who had a 120 V4 on his pontoon boat, he used to make laps around the lake at full throttle. There was even a guy who had a 21 foot Douglas picklefork with twin Merc 200's.

The early 90's showed a huge increase in PWC sales. People were buying them for their kids and changing the definition of "fun."

My family moved to a private lake in 1993, in western Lenawee County, MI. This lake has lots of MasterCrafts, pontoon boats, 18' deep vees, and jet skis.
The only other V6 outboards on the lake are 150's on bass boats, and a couple of center console deep vees with OMC 200 power.

The people on this lake will spend over $20,000 on a new twin-engine Yamaha jet boat that only goes 55, and won't pull a skier worth crap. Some will spend over $35,000 on a family-sized Mastercraft. The rest of them buy Rinkers and Sea-doos. The "go-fast" culture does not exist here. The parents like to fish and go tubing, and their kids like to ride PWC. There's a few die-hard slalom skiers like my Dad, but they don't care about going fast anymore like when they were younger. We talk to people all the time on the lake who are driving their first boat at age 40.

People out here stare in amazement when I'm at the boat launch. Their kids all want to know how fast it goes. They've never seen anything like it. The motor says "200" on the faceplate, and they all ask "how big is that motor??" Most of the families here moved away from Detroit's outer suburbs like Livonia and Canton-- they are reformed city dwellers. They buy whatever they see in the magazines. They buy whatever the local marinas steer them toward. The marinas deal in pontoons, inboards, PWC, and compact jet boats.

Kalamazoo, Coldwater, and Pinckney are the nearest marina locations where you can find a new Merc V6 outboard, or any larger outboard, for that matter. Each are over an hour's drive away.

There has yet to be a new Hydrostream appearance at the Detroit Boat Show. They filled Cobo Hall with hundreds of boats, and not ONE SINGLE performance outboard boat ANYWHERE!!

Why aren't any small dealers out here trying to deal the new Hydrostreams? Nobody out here even knows the product exists.

If someone would run the "chains 'o' lakes" with a demo boat, park at the sandbars, and talk to some people, and got the word out, people would be interested in something like a new Voyager! A "ski boat" with room for 7, and a go-fast boat for Dad's testosterone.

In some places like Florida, Wisconsin, Illinois and Minnesota (and the southwest too), the outboard presence is strong, and it seems to have stayed that way over the years. Lots of fast outboards, lots of performance dealers, and local businesses sponsor weeknight drag races! These areas have Allisons, 'Streams, STV's, etc lined up at the sandbars every summer weekend.

Outboard boating is becoming a lost art. People aren't passing the tradition down, and in some newly developed lake communities, it just never existed. There are isolated areas where it continues to thrive, but most have disappeared from other lake communities.
I have nobody on my lake to race, and nobody to help me tune my setup in person. Scream and Fly gives me a way to feel like I'm part of the outboard culture. People on this site reach out to help me, they offer products to me that nobody in the area offers, they buy my stuff when nobody in this area even knows what the item is used for. Thanks to everyone who makes this all possible, especially Greg.

How can we keep the outboard culture alive?
We need more fast boat gatherings. Not just in the backyards of hot boaters, but coming together, meeting in the middle, bringing the sights, sounds, and 2-stroke smell back to the places where it used to be. Hardy Party, Rumble, and the Florida gatherings are healthy for this motorsport.

Keep it real!

-Chad

[Ted Stryker]

I strongly agree, and tell the guy in your picture with the XR-2002 that if he turns his head I'm gonna take his boat back to Louisiana with me.. :D

[pyro]

Not my pictue, I borrowed it from somewhere. Maybe a Rumble picture?

[drag120]

I go to about 3/4 of the Michigan hot boat association meets and there is quite a few outboard hot boats. For example, last year at Wamplers lake there was 6 or more outboards that were running 95 mph or better. Their website is www.michiganhotboats.com and have a full schedule for this summer. I hope to see you there. Tom.

[David]

The same decline in outboard culture happened in Ontario. None of the boat companies survived although a couple have been revived.

Panther, gone
Canadian Edition, gone (back in lower volume w/John Spaith)
Charger, gone (back in weakened form)
J Craft, gone (back in two places, which is weird)
Scorpion, gone (Challenger clones)
Fibertron, gone (14' Sidewinder clone)
Sidewinder, gone

Engine technology is progressing. Hull construction is still progressing. But hull shape technology is almost frozen. The STV design is old (good as it is it is not not new). At least Allison and now Hydrostream are doing new bottoms. But thats only two companies. By my count only 3 new V bottoms in the last 10 years (Allison SS2000 and XB21, Hydrostream Venom).

Are any of the tunnels new designs?

On our lake fast outboards were never popular. We do get a few offshore boats.


David

[pyro]

I was at the September Wamplers meet weekend last year, but only on Sunday. Two Merc powered Talons were the only other outboards there on that day (other than the local bassers.) My boat's previous owner from Chelsea even showed up with his jet boat, what a surprise!

The funny thing is, most of the people there seemed to live far away. No local guys. There's a guy named Pat on Wamplers who has a STV with a sprayed 2.5, but we've never met.

I feel "out of the loop", showing up to crash an "organization"s gathering. The hotboat club is like a separate group, few of them come round this site. Daytona19 and a couple others are in the MI HB club. A couple of the guys talked to me and one gave me a ride in his 21' Talon, they were real cool.

[drag120]

I wouldn't worry about "crashing" the get together. They are all there to have fun. I usually only go on Saturday, there is a lot more boats. I just think it's fun to go to these. Compared to racing where you have to go to Kentucky, Tennesee, or farther it is a lot closer. As for tunnel hull technology there is a new Triad race boat coming out this year. The Triads and STV's are constantly changing to see what shapes are better. This is not just for racing either. I do also agree that there isn't a lot of performance showings at the boat shows. Tom.

[PhastBoat]

Is from the RONDAK ROMP Great Sacandaga Lake NY

[pyro]

The Michigan Hot Boat Club's website has a links page, there are 45 links on the page, but no S&F link anywhere. What gives?

Their '04 schedule has not been posted yet.

-Chad

[1BadAction]

chad, sad thing is, that is the way the world is going. little ricer conventions, jetskis all over the waterways, and the general population thinking "if its made in another country it must be better" 75% of the people in this country are treasonous bastards, that ride the bandwagon of whatever is "the in thing" in this country. then they make it so people who want to buy fast, cheap, reliable v8 cars (camaro-firebird) or simple motors (2.5 efi/non dfi 2 strokes) cant do it because its not "politically correct" its all a load of BS. same goes for freedom of speech, guns, right to privacy, and a multitude of other things that you need to sell your soul to get.

also, why do HP boat dealers want to stock HP boats? too much non-moving $$$ in inventory, because 60% of the people looking at new, see a used one they like, and buy it. another 35% of the people looking at a new boat are going to go down the road to "jimmy splash-alot" because his rigged boats are 2 grand cheaper than the real thing. same for HP motors, why stock them when half of your potential customers are going to take a road trip to another state because they are saving 1500 bucks.

designs- why spend the BIG R&D money to come up with something revolutionary, when 6 months to a year down the road, theres multiple places making the same thing for 2/3rds price, because THEY didnt need to spend the money to design the thing.

with most things nowadays, its ok to steal an idea, its ok to stab someone in the back that you made a deal with, and there is no loyalty. :(

[pyro]

But how do we get these family leisure boaters interested in the outboard sport? Why is there no performance outboard presence at the boat shows? Can the marinas get a hold of a demo boat for a weekend to park outside and spark some interest.

We're not even talking about competition! If someone in this area started selling Voyagers (even some with 4-strokes), there would BE NO competition from anyone within the next two counties!

People buy what they see. If people see it on TV, they want to try it. The industry doesn't promote iteslf anymore, and people dare to question why they killed the 2.5?? It's not all the EPA's fault, the outboard boaters were declining in numbers before the government started puckering up their asses...

[stokernick]

Interesting post,Chad,and IMHO no one objects to "visitors" to any gathering of performance boaters.We all share a common bond and enjoy sharing our experiences.This is evidenced by the many posts and comments following the events.Thanks for the post from the Rondack RoMp and the reminder that it`s just some weeks away.While it`s a good journey from Michigan if you have the time and desire come and join us,we promise you a good time!!

[Ron V]

pyro,

I have similar memories to yours, although we had more performance outboards around here. I too find it a shame that tri-hulls with 3 cylinder Johnsons and inline four Mercs that were plenty adequate to get the job done are fading away into history. However I/O's started to take hold, I'm not sure. Many were brainwashed into thinking that 2-strokes are unreliable. Most people seem convinced a car engine is better and will therefore last longer, but it's funny that they even worry about it since most people put about 10 hours on their boat per season.

Something else I've noticed is that overkill is the norm for family boats now. It used to be that a 15'-16' boat that topped out at 35 mph was the typical family rig. Now everybody has fancy deck boats and bowriders that take a Suburban to tow and run over 50. Many waterskiers also think they need a Mastercraft to do recreational waterskiing with.

I guess we should be glad in a way that not everybody is into hot outboards; it would be good to have a bigger following but at the same time, we would not be unique then. Look at the Harley culture - everyone has one now and the result is that most of them are wannabes.

There are any number of high performance outboards, ranging from old faded Checkmates to brand new Allisons, roaming the Fox Chain and Fox River here. The Fox Chain itself is representative of almost every kind of boat there is, and is very unique in that sense. Everything from 30 foot sailboats to small tunnel hulls are seen there.

Our local 300 acre lake, on the other hand, has fallen almost entirely into the 18-20 mph inner tube pulling mush of Rinkers, Bayliners, etc. Waterskiing is almost beyond most of the boaters' talents or preferred speed ranges now. We do, however, have just enough waverunners to keep everyone's nerves on edge. The 30 mph speed limit imposed in the mid 70's on our lake helped usher in the end of the older, classic v-bottom performance boats such as Hustlers and Switzers, but some are still around. My Rapid Craft has drawn a lot of attention, some unwanted, on that lake since I bought it in 1998. The locals seem to either love it or hate it.

[Fibertron]

I dont know about 20 years ago, but i do know now there are still a few old faded checkmates and sidewinders and J-crafts on the lake where i spend a few weeks each summer. I think ive only seen one hydrostream, mabey 3 chargers and two new avengers thats it. One of our neibourghs who recently bought a mastercraft didnt bother putting his jcraft in all last year.. Theres a ton of bowriders, pontoons and inboard ski boats, plus a few old runabouts with old 50hp and whatnot..... I think everyone also still has their old aluminuim boats.. People who occasionly drive by going 60+MPH are thought to be crazy.. the days of fast outboards will eventually die unless we can all do something to help..

[Jason Huber]

You cant' get more "cultural" than this: I went for a ride today in my friends' new (to him) 89' Hydrostream Vegas!! Its' his first hotboat & he still lives in NE Mpls - so it seemed only fitting to take it to nearby Lake Johanna for his maiden voyage. Did' a couple of fly-by's past Howard Pipkorn's old house, Chris Bush's place was a little further down the lake. Way-back-when - when hydrostreams were still being built @ the nearby New Brighton plant, we used to hang-out @ the public beach - chasing girls and waiting for a possible glimpse of new Hydrostreams parked at Howard's dock! That was the 70's... The world changes - but this stuff runs DEEP within everyone on this board!! Nice post by-the-way! :cool:

[Trikki1010]

There's something I never heard in the same sentence

Huber, truth and eloquent :eek: :eek:

I know what ya mean though. All of the legit "racing" has gone away from around here. There's still that small contingency that dreams of going faster. Unless we're talking sex here.....;)

[Cp]

Deep, cultural roots....

Dang shame, Huber.

But what you say is both true and somewhat eloquent ;)

I've been by that same boat dock a couple of times myself. A picture would be priceless but I didn't have my digital back then.

Where did all the time and true innovators go?

Sure would be nice to see Howard make one of these little outings. It seems like most of us have other things now, but I'd dare say very few of us has never had and loved a 'Stream'.

Cp

[Jason Huber]

Gn. Patton said it best: " All glory is fleeting" This is true for most things I guess - most people as-well... Patton - now HE was eloquent! ;)

[Trikki1010]

If you think Patton was eloquent

It's no wonder you're undergoing sensitivity training;)

[Jason Huber]

Thats' the problem these days Rick... Too many Westmorelands (Re; bureaucrats...) not enough Pattons! :D

[rivalguy]

Pyro, unfortunately it's the same up here where I boat in the Kawartha's part of Ontario.

When I was growing up, I knew all the performance boats on the lake, and could recognise a lot of them from the whine of the engines as they screamed down the bay.

Suddenly, it seemed that all the boats that could go over 65 disappeared in favour of PWC and PWC jetboats.

Now there is only 2 hydrostreams left on the lake (1 is mine), maybe 2 j-crafts and a charger or two.

When I got my Seebold last year, I couldn't go to the marina without somebody saying, "Hey, that looks like the batboat!" In the beginnning I just smiled and gave a short laugh, but by the end of the summer, I could only shake my head.

If not for a website like this, a lot of us would be powerboating in obscurity, unaware of all the like-minded scream and flyers out there.


Cheers!

Jamie

[CRMERC]

I used to be able to go out my back door down to the dock an hour before sundown on a saturday and be able to drive my first hydrostream in some sort of a run what you brung race. You could count on a mix of donzi , checkmate , baha, lazer, seebold and my favorite Hydrostream. I can remember times when 4 or 5 boats might be going at it on my tiny little lake. That was at least 10 or 15 years ago last year I put my latest hydrostream in the lake and you would have thought I had landed a ufo. Not to mention Johny law does not have sense of humor any more. Without this web site i would have no way of seeing, hearing or talking fast boats. Perhaps this web site is the cure for our sport.

P.S. that picture is of rich owens old boat at the rondak romp.

[Reese]

in the "Death of 280" thread.

All I can say, is the general public, are not interested in high performance outboards. Outboards are still pretty popular for the pontoon, aluminum boat, offshore boats and of course bass boats, but overall, high performance outboards (over 200 hp) only account for 40,000 units per year for all the manufacturers...that is really sad.

[pyro]

Another one sits, rotting in the sun, a dying breed.
Save the outboards!!!
TTT!

[crazy horse]

Back in 74 when I first had my Viper, We were drag racing three times a year at Holloway. There was at least 10 fast boats on The little lake I lived on. There's a park at one end of Meyers and years ago I'd have 4 or 5 guys wantin to race on the weekends that I was home. I really loved those days. I had the fastest outboard around and most of the guys I knew back then all had fast boats. We all knew every person that worked a every marina and what parts they stocked. now-a-days on Meyers I try only to run during the week so I don't have to drive around pontoons, fishin boats, and those damn paddle boats that the park rents now. O'yea the max HP outboard the park lets in now is 75. Truly sad. :(

[Binger]

Is that people are retiring to there cotttage or it is given to them by there dead parents, so the age of most people on the lakes is 50-60 or they are bark eaters that drop out of college travelled the world and now dont want to work and live on the cheap, so the wild ones have been there done it and they want the peace and quite which is total BS, anyway thats what i think but then again who am i LOL.

[Tom Foley]

This evolving situation is i believe , a phase that will re-emerge stronger than ever if young people get involved . We all know that the basic cost of living is escalating and it is getting harder for people to just make a living much less indulge in a sport , hobby, pastime ,that is maintenace intensive . I remember at a Stock Outboard race in Fl . about 1991 where between heats a group of kids went out on a 3 seater Seadoo and skiied and buzzed around at 60 mph effortlessly . I thought , why struggle to race a CSH at 68mph while literally risking your life for a trophy or a DSH at 80 + mph when you can drag your girlfriend around on a pwc for less money anytime you want . Kids born into homes that had pwc's thought they were the coolest things on earth and justifiably so ! I thought a Hurricane Merc was the coolest thing around and then when I started racing the aura of a Merc with a Quicky was what I lived for . Times change ! At almost 49 I now have two boats that both go over 100 mph and I think thats cool ! My STV Euro and my Mirage River Racer are both very trick to me and at this stage in my life they were a lot more obtainable than when I was 20 something . In a few years my 2.5 Hi Perf motors will be relics and desirable by collectors !! Pyro it is your mission to further promote the sport in your area , as a passsionate enthusiast you are the seed to a better hot -boat world !! Thank you for bringing this subject to the forerfront and a massive Thank You to Greg and all the people that make this site and resulting interest my favorite thing to do !! By the way I still own my 1971 16 ft. Super Sidewinder 140 IO just to go skiing with ! Cant part with it !! Thanks Pyro , Tom .

[David]

What about Bass Boats? There are a lot of them around and the fish get faster all the time. Maybe the culture has just changed a bit.

I haven't fished in almost 20 years.

[OntarioStreamin]

I'm an EXTREME Hydrostream fan.

I can remember growing up at the cottage on Belmont Lake, north of Peterbourough Ontario in the late 80's to mid 90's and there being tons of Streams I mean tons. Of course they were being build only 20 mins away in Hastings.
And yah over the years those dam jet things took over and I partcially blame my own father because he told me he was going out and buying a boat, he showed up a the cottage the next day with one of the early standup Kawasakies.

I really dislike jet drives! (Sorry Rampager)

But even if you were to go to Belmont this year, you would find maybe a dozen on average Hydrostreams.
Belmont is an even tie with my home lake Scugog of favourite lakes to run.
I strongly advise you to visit Belmont Lake if you love the New and classic Streams and you are in the area.

We'er making a come back!

[rocket1]

Pyro, I feel for you. The lake I live on has the number #1 selling malibu dealership in U.S. Darn ski boats everywhere. A few fast boats in our area though. I remember in the early eighties in Dearborn Hgts. off of Telegraph Rd. there was a boat dealer that sold hydrostream, and yes he went to Cobo baot show all the time. He went out of business around 1989 or so and was blowing out his inventory.... new vegas XT no trailer no motor $ 4500.00 out the door! I am planning on taking my new Allison down to wamplers for the mich hot boat on 21st. I am going to go to devils lake also in your neck of the woods. Alsdo hardy dam. Send me a pm sometime, maybe we can hook up. Greg.

[mercpower]

I would like to interject a perspective from the southern states on this. I completely agree with this thread. Here in Arkansas its the same way, there used to be a couple of Allisons, Hydrostreams, etc... running on the river, mainly the bass boat models. There used to be Thursday night drags on the river in the early 80's. That is what got me started in the hi-performance area. My dad would take me down to watch the drags when I was a kid and I always wanted one, now I have had 8 or 9 but there is no interest in them anymore. Now its Ranger, Triton, Donzi, or Mastercraft. One point I would like to make is the LIABILTY. In our "sue happy" culture people have become afraid of things that come with a risk. Thats what ended our drags. One blow over plus a lawsuit and it was done. I think that plays into a lot of the reasoning with the decline of all hi-perfomance boating as far as dealers carrying them. BUT the main point here is what can we do as a community to rekindle the spark??? THink about what we would all do if Scream and Fly was gone? Whats the answer to the million dollar question?? What about a National rally? With major TV coverage? If could be done think about the turn in popularity it could bring! Look at it like this: NASCAR got out and promoted itself, now theres 10-12 guys here in town that have Rangers and Tritons painted up like NASCAR! Who would have thought that car racing would influence bass boats? Could we as a community pull it off????? I say we can! :D

[pyro]

The "speedboat" movement seemed to get it roots in the 60's, grew wildly during the 70's with inlines, and thrived in the 1980's with V6's. Most lakes saw these years come and go, and some of these boaters hung around.

I live at a man-made lake. As late as 1978, it still had a roadbed running through it, submerged under a few inches of water. People would try to drive their truck across the lake without falling off the roadbed bank. Dredging was finished during the 1980's, and the roads around the lake were still dirt until 1988. The lake was not developed into a growing lake community until the early 1990's.

What I'm saying, is that this lake never witnessed the outboard speedboat culture. The lake has no memory of Checkmates, Bajas, 'Winders or Hydrostreams. Most of the people who live here moved here to get away from the growing Detroit suburbs, and many of my neighbors still have jobs in Dearborn and Detroit. Many of these lake residents never lived on a lake until they moved here. A lot of people moved here in the 1990's to start a family. This rural farm area had to nearly double the size of their school system to support the "boom" of kids, just from this large lake community alone! These growing families buy MasterCrafts, pontoon boats and jet skis for lake recreation. Most of the lakefront residents are failry affluent, and when they want to play, they spend money. They spend it at the nearest boat dealers:
-Devils Lake Water Sports in Manitou Beach
-Krupa's and Thayer in Jackson (and a few other Jackson-based marinas)
-Boater's Choice in Brooklyn.

These dealers sell ski boats, pontoons, and jet ski's almost exclusively.
I spoke with the owner of Boater's Choice a few times and showed him pictures of the new Hydrostreams, pointing out that there's a picture of the new Vegas XT in the '04 Merc catalog. I mentioned that nobody else in the county sells performance outboard boats, and how a boat like the Voyager XT would be an easy sell for the typical ski boat buyer looking for a good boat for family fun, with the added appeal of speed for those who want something more.

Every year, there's at least a dozen brand new ski boats on the lake, and countless new jet skis. These lake residents are spending $35,000 on a new boat just because they can afford it, and they're buying whatever the local marinas are pushing. They buy what they see.

There would be a HUGE market for a Hydrostream dealer in this area, or at least SOME kind of outboard boat dealer. With fast growing, affluent lake communities, and weekend NASCAR traffic (MIS speedway is 5 miles from me), it's the ideal market. If there was ANY dealer representing hot outboards, they would have an EXCLUSIVE market in the four-county area with business coming from all around, including the area lakes:
Wamplers Lake
Devils Lake
Round Lake
Loch Erin
Michigan Center Lake
Sand Lake
Lake Columbia
Clarklake
And many others in between, including the Toledo area and western Lake Erie.

Michigan is one of the largest boat-owning states in the country, but their major boat show doesn't have any daler even attempting to expose their buyers with performance outboards. If nobody steps in to invest and give some market exposure, the hot outboards will continue to be non-existent in the area.

OntarioStreamin pointed out that there were always lots of Hydrostreams in his area because they were built nearby and there were dealers everywhere.

If anybody wants to come out to Loch Erin and hang out sometime, send me an e-mail, and I'll get your boat on the lake for you. I'll try to make it to both Wamplers Lake Saturdays this year, it's only 5 minutes from my house.

-Chad

[1BadAction]

i have thought about this one alot. ya know, 90% of the people that own jetskis, toons, and bass boats, can keep them. they cant obey the law or drive a 35mph pontoon correctly, let alone a hot boat that does 70+. imo...

[stylishskier]

Pyro you have some good points but seriously now, lets look at the pros and cons of a tournament waterski/wakeboard boat and a voyager xt
voyager
pros
fast when you want to
sporty
can pull skiers
tracks decent for an outboard
cons
swim platform?
outboard-dangerous for kids behind the boat with sharp prop, more complicated to the average joe than a chevy 350
interior room
storage
wake size(for boarding)
able to pull a straight line through a slalom course?
even allowed in a slalom course? (not on my lake)
its all in where your priorities lie, the majority of hydrostream owners (back in the hay-day) were part of the baby boom generation, now they have kids, enjoy creature comforts and doing watersports
"typical ski boat buyer looking for a good boat for family fun"
How much does a Voyager/225 cost? answer, probably the same/more than the "average" ski boat, not all ski boats cost in excess of 35g's

I agree that it sucks that hi-perf outboard boating seems to be dieing, but times are changing, and there has actually been a decline in jetskis on my lake, there are few mates... my family used to own one, diplomat-150, dad decided it was time he wanted more room and have an easier time pulling us kids around

like someone said, just be happy we have this site, its concrete evidence outboards arent completely dead...

I'll step off the soap box now...
ps for the record I am not anti performance boat, I hope to own some in the coming years, but I also will own ski boats. Do you ski/wakeboard much, it is a very fun way to spend the summer.

[Wizard]

I can't agree with you more Pyro. I grew up running fast rigs in the mid-80's on local S.E. Michigan waters like Cass, Ford and Belleville. Even Lake St. Clair. I've owned a Hydrostream, Eliminator Daytona and a nice Checkmate. Heck we used to overnight in Crystal Bay on the Detroit River with all the other wild fast boaters.

Not anymore. It's like your lakes here too. PWC's, Pontoons and cookie cutter runabouts. As I've gotten older I've combined my love of fishing with my passion for speed and joined the bassboat crowd. These are the last vestiges of performance outboards in Michigan. Anything else that goes over 70 is an offshore. Most of the bassfishing crowd have a clue about setting up their rigs for speed. They at least understand stuff like set-back, engine height and lifting props.

Most though are relatively conservative though and leave their engines stock. Not me! ;) You can hear me coming a mile away. :D So far no bassboat...or other I've met yet has passed me. If and a big IF I can find someone to race. :(

I do miss the days for sure but I get my jollies just the same. The going joke about me from my fishing pals is that fishing is something I do when I let my motor cool down. :D

Anyway if your ever in the Metro area look me up. I'll run ya for fun in my lead sled fishing boat. :p

[pyro]

The 4.3 V6 powered I/O Rinkers and sea Rays are also popular here, mostly due to price.
A lot of the people here own tournament ski boats, and they can hardly even ski. They pull people on tubes, occasionally wakeboarding, etc. They buy them because that's what the area marina sales staff tells them they need. Some of these folks are so rich, they buy a new boat every three years just because they can.

For "speed" and thrills, they buy jet skis. Some lakefront homeowners own a FLEET of Personal Watercraft.

Most of the people out here have never even sat in a boat capable of 70 mph. The lying speedometer on their 900cc SeaDoo says 70, so they think that's what "fast" is. All the kids with the faster jet-skis have given up on racing me, now that I've thouroughly spanked them all.

Exposing people around here to true performance boats would be like a bunch of teenagers discovering alcohol for the first time.

[Alan Power]

The hi-po boat scene didn't even stop off here! If it wasn't for S&F I'd be happy cruising around in a fletcher or similar at 45mph thinking it was fast!
But I have noticed an increase in deep v performance boats around and hopefully with time a small speed scene might develop.
But untill then I'm happy unleashing hell on every speed boat I come across :D Nothing even comes close around here and my boat is SLOW by S&F standards.

Pyro, if you have the capitol why not try and start a hydrostream dealership if you believe so strongly that you could push them! I'd like to try something like that, maybe not hydrostream but probably a US perf. boatbuilder! I think progression could do very well here. The lake type boats are not realy suited to our water, it's mainly sea.
It would only take the cost of the first boat to start up and with a bit of luck you will sell it fairly soon, get another two and go from there!

[OntarioStreamin]

People must think your boat looks like a spaceship?

I've heard that comment a few times since I've owned mine and there are alot of people here that have seen a V-King before.
Just curious....
How fast are ya?

[OrangeCrush]

I have to agree my freinds and i were part of the race crowd here on the Conn. river there were alot of flat bottum big block v- drives .then people from other parts of the state would come down here with jet boats and sick outboards,this is where i learned about hydrostreams, bought a new vegas .there were races here every weekend.like todays streetraces .thenpeople complained about noise ,then we got a speed limit. my freinds all went to big offshore boats ,i went into streetrods, bikes. last year i hear of the hot boat run and this site .after an 18 year absents my family are back on the water. thanks to Scream and fly and its members.

[OntarioStreamin]

In my first post I forgot to mention that today and for the last few years that I know of John Speath has been building boats under the name of Hydrostream Boats Canada.
Just under an hour from me know!
They do awsome work.. (my new core) :D

John was building boats under the name X-Stream (late 80's-mid 90's) and I believe he had a part in Canadian Edition Boats before that.
I know Jim tucker owned it but I think John was it there somewhere. :o

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I BELIEVE this accurate.

[Alan Power]

People must think your boat looks like a spaceship?

I've heard that comment a few times since I've owned mine and there are alot of people here that have seen a V-King before.
Just curious....
How fast are ya?

Like I said it's not the ideal boat for these parts but on a flat day or if I go down to the lakes it's cool, so there's not too many similar boats and it pulls a big crowd at the ramp. Also most boats here are underpowered so when a knife (as a few people have called it) with a V6 pulls up it turns some heads.
There has been a few days where I haven't been able to put the boat in, too chopy, but I knew when I saw these boats on S&F that I HAD to have one.

As for speed, I'm not sure, the speedo in the boat was bouncing up and down and I didn't have a GPS then but I'd say upper 70's with the jackplate off, engine bolted in top holes with a 28 chopper. The engine is a ported 2.4 225 and absolutely sux out of the hole.
I have a bone stock 2.5 200 for this year, going to try and race formula 200 in the UK this year, it's a dock racing class for any 18' boat with a 200, should be interesting if I will be allowed to race as the v-king is slightly under length.
I love this boat :D
Alan

[Corona Mike]

This is a great post Pyro, and you have said what most of us--even in Florida!--think every weekend we head to the lakes/rivers/bays/etc. The jet skis have taken over they cause the problems--the rest of us pay for them! When there is a boating accident they don't say a PWC accident it's classified as a BOATING ACCIDENT! and, it makes it bad on us all. We here in Florida have another problem that is unique to our state and the tree huggers have rallied behind. It's the "peacefull manatee" They are "protected" to the MAX! Don't get me wrong NO hotboater wants to hit one at 80+++ but the way some people think, we have put a bounty out on them! It's truly sad to say but WE ARE the indangered but surly not protected species! One sugestion, try setting up a get to gether on your local lake, if it is large enough to handle more boats than you think ;) and see what responce you get. You may be suprized! We had over a hundred at the last "little ol' prop. test" at the Suwannee, and it was still a little cold! Good luck. Mike T.

[David]

We don't get a lot of ski boats on our lake. We get bass boats and offshore boats, plus cruisers and 'family' boats. PWC are down a lot from the peak and actually seem more polite.

Myself I think they'd all be better off in STVs, Hydrostreams, and Allisons, but they've never been popular on our lake.

Of course Chris Spaeth did describe 'my' lake as the Atlantic Ocean, so there is a reason we get offshore boats. A lot of days I watch waves roll in as it's too rough to launch, and a lot of afternoons I park the boat to avoid cruiser wakes.

John Spaeth did build some boats for Canadian Edition. Jim Tucker outsourced some (a lot?) of the boat building to John.

[JW]

After ending up with an old pontoon boat, a paddle boat, an aluminum row boat with 4-stroke power, and a new I/O Bow-Rider Glastron, I went and got me a cool Vector in December and an XR2 for the back of it today :D

[pyro]

Great, Jim! Bring it out to Wamplers on May 21.

[Stream 1]

You have justed scratched the surface of a hugh issue. All performance outboard boat companies face the same issues, and it almost always comes down to money and time. All of us, Hydro Stream, Allison, Traid/STV and the others have limited funds to advertise and promote, companies like Malibu, Master Craft, and Supra/Moomba spend more in a week than the three of us can afford to spend together in a month. On top of that, there is really no avenue to promote performance outboards, Hot Boat, Powerboat, Family Performance . . . all don't really understand the product and usually pan it even in a fairly positive article. Why, we don't have the budgets to get them interested.

I have talked to both Darris and Wally and even through we all agree there is a problem we all also agree we don't have the answer/$$$. Add what it cost for insurance for our companies and then look at the declining volume and you have to wonder why we are still in business other than an absolute love for what we do. I'm not going to post a number, but I doubt any one not in the business can even come close to putting a number on what it cost to develope a boat like the Venom compared to a 20 foot Searay?

In the past I spent $1000's of dollars on advertising in differient magazines and then starting talking to the people that were calling, they said they searched us out because of a friend or family member and never saw any of our advertising, partially because people not into performance boats even know little magazine companies like mentioned above exist. Our greatest help is a dealer base, this year we have expanded that again and with our older dealers like Wayne's Marine in FL and adding dealers like Jaco's Marine in TN and GPI in MN, along with Baysville in Canada we are hoping to continue our growth. But like you found in your attempt to talk to your local dealers (by the way, thanks for trying) its not easy.

So there are no answers, if I had the money (any investors out there) I do believe you could create a market, but it would have to be done with a company that not only produced perrformance outboards but also some semi performance I/O - Skiboats. Thats why we are developing the Ventura, I guess the question is will it be enough to move Hydro Stream to the next level.

The one thing I do see as a positive is the gatherings, especially when they are family oriented and show another side of performance boating.

[JW]

Great, Jim! Bring it out to Wamplers on May 21.


While I'll probably never go to Hardy Party ( I hate crowds) I might be able to swing Wamplers if I get this thing together...........


Nice post Stream1. I'm hoping you're still hanging in there in 4-5 years when my daughter finishes college :D

[Alan Power]

Would it be beneficial to group together with the other manufacturers you mentioned above on a joint advertising campaign. Maybe through scream and fly, (with Greg's permission).

[pyro]

Old thread, keep it going!

-Chad

[msethsmile]

20-25,000 registered boats in my county. I have the only hp ob that boats here. There are a couple other hp guys but they boat out of state at their cabins. I can park my allison on a sandbar with 30 other boats and nobody ever notices it. Large Baja's (speed changes you) seem to rule. A few run in the low 90's but you can time their acceleration with a calendar. A b-boat ran well over the hun at the ozarks shoot-out.

As for Patton, he also said, "Never pay for the same real estate twice." Translated to this thread: look and move forward. I see the demise of hp ob's. Price, speed limits, liability, motor manufacturers offerings, EPA, et al. Save your old stuff. The good ole days are gone, get over it. Even if we could go back to the prom, it wouldn't be the same.

ps. I just purchased a pontoon. hmmm, maybe twin 300x for power would help.

[blkmtrfan]

" Translated to this thread: look and move forward. I see the demise of hp ob's. Price, speed limits, liability, motor manufacturers offerings, EPA, et al. Save your old stuff. The good ole days are gone, get over it. Even if we could go back to the prom, it wouldn't be the same.

So you don't think web sites like this one have brought a resurgance (even a small one) to the HP OB interest :confused:

[SCT]

One problem I have noticed is....the boats are getting alot bigger.

Years ago, the lake was full of 16'- 18' runabouts, I/Os, pontoonboats, and a few cabin cruisers. A 21' boat a few decades ago was considered a large boat.

Nowdays, I couldn't even take my 21' Cmate out on Lake Norman, NC without getting the crap beat out of us on the weekends. Let alone, running the boat wide-open. So I sold the boat and I am now looking for a boat in the 25'- 28' range.

Also, there is just not alot of profit or demand for fast OBs in the pleasure boat market. Boat makers earn alot more money on a 21' family IO than a 21' OB (especially, if they don't rig the OB at the factory). Also, the liability is alot less for the boat companies. (A good example is Wellcraft.)

[DoktorC]

I really think that this website and sites like it are proof that the sport isn't going away and still has alot of life in it. Look at the number of boat builders that are members here. There is more exposure at this one point then any one of them could have hoped for if S&F didn't exsist. Then there are the meets that may not have taken place if it weren't for S&F. This promotes the community and gets people excited about boating..instead of using your boat once a year by yourself now you have a reason to go out. There are many more examples you can take from here..parts, project boats...the list goes on..and it all makes it easier to be in this sport.

It's because of S&F that I discovered that I have a core issue...and I learned how (and who can) to fix it. That alone saved my boat..I can't really afford another boat so mine gets fixed instead of scraped. I'm sure there are tons of guys who fixed there own problems with help from here..saving money that now can be used to either further their boating budget or allow them to stay in the sport.

I've notice in my area there are a few more outboard boats around in the last couple of years. Alittle competition for "king of the bay" is a great thing..it keeps the boats in alot better shape lol. I know it was different in the hay days of the sport but we're not dead yet and hopefully we will see the outboard boat make a resurgance...I would love another boat to race on my lake!!

[Jason Huber]

As for Patton, he also said, "Never pay for the same real estate twice." Translated to this thread: look and move forward. I see the demise of hp ob's. Price, speed limits, liability, motor manufacturers offerings, EPA, et al. Save your old stuff. The good ole days are gone, get over it. Even if we could go back to the prom, it wouldn't be the same.


Mark, I just KNEW there was something that I really liked about you... :D See that you were selling-off one of your Hot-Rods - the Voyager... :( At the end of the day, your right you know. Its just hard adjusting to knew realities sometimes. $3.00++/gallon gas... Why its OK for Suzy to have 2 Mommies... Illegals demanding to vote...We live in strange days. Great post though - thanks again Pyro!!:cool:

[NNT]

So you don't think web sites like this one have brought a resurgance (even a small one) to the HP OB interest :confused:

man i have learned so much from this site it's not even funny.Sure i am just messing around with a little whaler,but i'm learning the basics of hot boating with it and one day against my better judgement i'll probably take a step or two up and get a real hotboat :D I just hope my wife don't want me to get rid of one of my others lol

[Fah-Q-JohnnyRude]

Pyro,

the reason we are a far and few in between is quite simple. We are the minority. The strong and proud minority, and thats good enough for me. How bout you?

Bryan;)

[Storz]

I know the feeling, I grew up going out to Portage lake, Bellville, Crystal lake up north, the chain in Pickney and a bunch of other lakes. When I was younger there were always a few hotrod boats run around with. Right before my parents moved (2003) my dad and I had taken the boat and were definitly the only ones around with a performance boat....lots of jetskis, and the obligitory 4.3l family cruiser

[AirRide]

Pyro, I feel for you. The lake I live on has the number #1 selling malibu dealership in U.S. Darn ski boats everywhere. A few fast boats in our area though. I remember in the early eighties in Dearborn Hgts. off of Telegraph Rd. there was a boat dealer that sold hydrostream, and yes he went to Cobo baot show all the time. He went out of business around 1989 or so and was blowing out his inventory.... new vegas XT no trailer no motor $ 4500.00 out the door! I am planning on taking my new Allison down to wamplers for the mich hot boat on 21st. I am going to go to devils lake also in your neck of the woods. Alsdo hardy dam. Send me a pm sometime, maybe we can hook up. Greg.Rocket, That would have been "Action Marine". The owners name was "Barnie". But basically family owned. LOTS of Hi-Perf. Merc powered HydroStreams sold from there in the seventies & eighties. He retired to Gibraltar, Mi. right on Lake Erie, close to Gibraltar Boat Yard. AirRide

[Pete Budka]

Air Ride:
To correct you...I'm from the Dbn. hts. area and the dealership was on vanborn road near telegraph and his name was Sammy Nassar and yes I believe he still lives in grosse ille or gibralter Mi. I believe the Hyrostream sign is still on the bldg. He also sold Checkmates. Hope to meet you @ the next Mi., hot boat meet @ wamplers.

Thank's Pete

[AirRide]

My Bad!!! I was thinking Sammy Nasar, but typing something else! You are correct. A couple personal boats that stuck out, that Sammy owned, were a 15' Viper with a 1750XS and a 20' CheckMate Enchanter with one of the first 300 3.4 Litre Merc's. Strange dude, but he was highly admired in our click. AirRide

[tnelsmn]

Well this is a very good thred. Some of you may have seen me post on here looking for help with my 78 viking, didn't lose the i yet, and have been very helpful on my quest to 80+ with a 175. Well so you all know I am only 18yrs old, and am in the 2nd year of a full top to bottem resto. I absoluty love this boat and hope to own more in the future. I am very glad that I found s&f on the IHR. You have been very helpful. I have seen the trend of wakeboard boats and pwc's and you can rest assured that I am not one of those kids, all I want is my viking back in the water so I smoke some punk who thinks his pwc is fast. In my case the sport has been past from one generation to the next. My father and his brother bought this boat in the early 80's and have now passed it on to me and my brother. He is a very vivid skier and I am in it for the speed and performance, like I said I want 80. I would like to get to some boat gatherings in MN when the boat is done.

I just wanted to tell you guys that there are some young people who still like the performance boats and want to see the sport grow, because when I am 40 I still want to be abile to buy parts.

[dexfile]

This was definately a good thread for me to read too. I just bought a 89' Vegas XT and I am in the process of getting my 2.5 rebuilt by Pops...if you know who I am talkin about. I am only 23 and have a couple friends who got me into the sport. I still have a ton to learn!

I guess I will also have to check out Michiganhotboats.com too, since I live up in Flint, MI myself. I got a place I can go to on the west side of the state, but always looking for places to go.

[pyro]

Pops knows his stuff. :D

Michigan Hot Boats is mostly about the jets and V-drives, but there's a few of us outboards that also come out to play. Used to have spring and fall gatherings at Wamplers Lake near my house, but the cops have driven everyone away, possibly for good.

Flint is fairly central. Should be a reasonable drive to most of the gathering spots around the state. :D

[drasticplastic]

dexfile, did you buy the white with gray stripes XT with Merc. 200 ?, that I saw out at the Holloway Res. this summer, if so it's a clean lookin rig. The boat i'm talking about was owned by a guy about 30 yr's old, he was thinkin of selling it when I saw it.

[live2ride31]

its funny you bring this up. i was saying this to my wife the last time i went out. all the dads at my local lake are always staring with that "holy @#$% look at the size of that motor on that little boat" face. they always ask me how fast it goes. even with their nice 8 passenger tube pullers, i can see they are a little envious of my little rocket. they just dont even seem to know about this phenomenon. some love to see it, but i also get a lot of dirty looks when i approach 70+ across the lake. so im more of a river rat nowadays. the ct river is the same distance as the closest lake so i always just go there now. plenty of fast boats around there, and lots of room to open them up.................................dave

[dexfile]

No, I bought a blue and silver Metal flake from a guy out of Northern IL that runs river barges. He got it out of MN somewhere. It is pretty clean, he just overheated the motor, so it needed some work. I should be ready to go by next summer. This one has a 2.5 that is going to end up being 30 out. Not sure what the hp is going to sit at when all is said and done.

I will be keepin my eyes open for runs next season though.

[Capt.Insane-o]

No, I bought a blue and silver Metal flake from a guy out of Northern IL that runs river barges. He got it out of MN somewhere. It is pretty clean, he just overheated the motor, so it needed some work. I should be ready to go by next summer. This one has a 2.5 that is going to end up being 30 out. Not sure what the hp is going to sit at when all is said and done.

I will be keepin my eyes open for runs next season though.

Mich Hot Boats comes up this way a three times a year, the cops leave us alone, numorous places to hang, awesome campground right on the river (Ausable) clean water, beer store is near. 110 oct gas in town. Fun people and good times.

[Scott Gilmore]

Mich Hot Boats comes up this way a three times a year, the cops leave us alone, numorous places to hang, awesome campground right on the river (Ausable) clean water, beer store is near. 110 oct gas in town. Fun people and good times.

DUDE, that river is thick BONG WATER (not saying that's bad) @ best !! But the beer store sounds OK. Scott :D

[Capt.Insane-o]

DUDE, that river is thick BONG WATER (not saying that's bad) @ best !! But the beer store sounds OK. Scott :D

Take the beer bottle away from your eyes and you can see the bottom easily in 15 feet of water. It's one of the cleanest rivers in Michigan. No industry, very very few houses. I know I know you spend most of your time peering into the bottle checking the level status so Imagine things always look dark and brown, I'll let you slide on that. :). Now the Saginaw River, you don't even have to be Jesus to walk across that. Plenty of turds from Flint to skip across.

[pyro]

Scott always tries to give everyone a reason to avoid a particular launch site or waterway. He doesn't want to spoil all the good spots, or arrive at the good launch ramp and not have a parking spot. Ha ha... :D :D

Scott never makes fun of the Saginaw or the Huron.

[dexfile]

The best part about Saginaw area is that it is only like an 1-2 hr drive for me. I have a feeling you will be seein me up there.

[Capt.Insane-o]

The best part about Saginaw area is that it is only like an 1-2 hr drive for me. I have a feeling you will be seein me up there.

Yuck. It's too bad that river is such a wreck, it would be a beautifull place. dioxin levels 4000 times above the safe level limits, raw sewage contamination, e-coli warnings, dead bodies, cars, etc. there is probably one of everything that has ever been made in the bottom of that river. I run it a couple times a year, usually in the spring, and during the champ boat races. But I much prefer Foote Pond.

[dexfile]

Sorry, I meant the Ausable.....I don't want to be getting in that nasty Saginaw River. I would rather not have my skin melt off.

[Scott Gilmore]

Take the beer bottle away from your eyes and you can see the bottom easily in 15 feet of water. It's one of the cleanest rivers in Michigan. No industry, very very few houses. I know I know you spend most of your time peering into the bottle checking the level status so Imagine things always look dark and brown, I'll let you slide on that. :). Now the Saginaw River, you don't even have to be Jesus to walk across that. Plenty of turds from Flint to skip across.

OK, I'll go boating up there (I just wanted to say bong water), now give me directions to the BEER store(or better yet the worst dive BAR) !! Scott :D

[Capt.Insane-o]

OK, I'll go boating up there (I just wanted to say bong water), now give me directions to the BEER store(or better yet the worst dive BAR) !! Scott :D

lol...worst dive bar...hmm on the way up 65 stop in Twinning or Whittemore :D. Or the Hale Tavern is quite a dump. Desi's Taco Lounge is about a half mile from the launch ramp/park. The Dam Store is just before it. Nothing better than trodding into Desi's at 9 am for a nice bowl of corn flakes and budweiser and a shot of Jim Beam (all warm of course) just to watch the look of your horribly hung over buddies faces as you contently munch away. I'm not sure how long Lucy would put up with you Gilmore, but she may be just your type! :)

[drasticplastic]

Cool dexfile, i'll have to check it out next year. Maybe when Mich. hot boats are up at Houghton Lk. in the spring.
Scott, good talkin with ya the other day. If you are lookin for places over by the aus. river to drink at, check out the Long Lake bar on Long Lake (by Hale), or have you all ready done an "inspection"?. See ya in a few week's to get the white ally. dialed in.

[Scott Gilmore]

Cool dexfile, i'll have to check it out next year. Maybe when Mich. hot boats are up at Houghton Lk. in the spring.
Scott, good talkin with ya the other day. If you are lookin for places over by the aus. river to drink at, check out the Long Lake bar on Long Lake (by Hale), or have you all ready done an "inspection"?. See ya in a few week's to get the white ally. dialed in.

Just when I thought I'd hit EVERY BAR in Michigan a few more pop up !! Sounds like a nice area I need to hit soon. Scott :D

[Cp]

Just when I thought I'd hit EVERY BAR in Michigan a few more pop up !! Sounds like a nice area I need to hit soon. Scott :D

Since you seem to be typing, you better hit something soon or you might take over the northern hemisphere.

:eek: