super slick hone job

[mercrazy]

i'm referring to the slick honing that Jay recommends.

can i put the slick hone job on my steel cylinders or does it require something special other than finer stones? what about using rouge like you buff metal with?

how smooth should they be in relation to a surface texture i can compare with such as the finish on glass, piston pins, etc. i don't have a grain gauge.

should i use chrome or gold tit rings?

[Liqui-Fly]

Tit rings???? I think you'll need a nut driver. LF

[us1]

I have been power honing mine with 320 stone to running Tin rings on a steel barrel. I think Jay might even go finer than that but you will have to ask him.

[Tony Brucato]

John,

I'd be very interested in your opinion of the power potential of a steel sleeve motor vs. Nicasil. Ever done any testing on that?

I would think that the extra volume in the transfer ports due to the thinner steel sleeves would help offset any gains from the better heat transfer and reduced friction of the Nicasil.

I would also think that a steel sleeve would stay round better than an aluminum sleeve during high power output.

That slick hone job might help balance the difference.

[us1]

You pretty much said it, mine both make the same power. I think the better heat transfer of the Nic motor makes it more durable. I will warm up faster as resists scuffing better. The pistons and cylinders expand at a closer rate than the steel motor. If you can get around some of these problems by proper piston clearance and careful warm-ups then the steel motor will make a pretty good race motor.

[Raceman]

Oh crap you say, here goes another onna them "way back when" comments. Yep. Back in the old motorcycle sand draggin days there was one guy runnin a machine shop whose stuff was always at the top of the heap at the races. I knew he wasn't doing it with port timing, because I was cuttin the ports for some of the guys then they'd take em somewhere to be bored. The stuff he bored was still faster than the stuff done elsewhere. Anyway, he'd bought a new at the time style Sunnen hone and was doin' em with 1200 grit stones and they were slick. Seems like I remember that he was running the clearances tighter and he also thought they ran cooler with the slick walls. (these motors were air cooled and the temp wasn't measured) Unfortunately the guy, who was real smart and innovative has moved on to bigger and better things, but I always wanted to try it with a steel sleeved V6.

[Greg Moss]

I have been doing mine slick for years,It's called parisitic drag, the less of it you have the better the motor will run. First thing on a outboard what is break in? the bearings have no break in they are rollers they need no break in. The only parts that need break in are the pistons and rings. On a rough honed motor what is break in, Thr grinding of the rings on the rough sufface of the cylinder walls, what that does is wear the rings and make friction and heat. A slick surface elliminates that. I hone mine with a set of 400 grit hones and them hit them with 600 grit wet dry then 1200 grit then croacus cloth. they feel as slick or slicker than the chrome or nic motors. The break in time is letting run on the hose for 30min. the 5 minat 4500 then stand on it. has worked for me for years. I get even compression on all cylinders and it will not affect the level of compression. after a motor that has been rough honed breaks (grinds) in the cylinder walls are slick and shiney why not start them out that way?

[Bill Gohr]

The reason you shouldn't start them out that way is simple, oil retention. If you want cylinder bores to have good crosshatch for an extended period of time, with no scuffing you need oil retention. Smooth cylinders have nowhere to hold it the rings just wipe it off. While i was at OMC I spent a year and a half on a manufacturing team testing just this subject. If the piston shape is right the only thing you break-in in an outboard is the rings. On a steel sleeve the best honing procedure is 3 step or plateau honing. Nothing makes an engine last longer with better looking bores. This probably can't be done to Nikasil because it's not thick enough. This has been tested by numerous vechicle manufacturers and engine builders to be the proper procedure.
I agree that the steel sleeved 2.5 is no weaker (in power) than the Nik motor. Unfortunately the pistons are the wrong shape for it. I built a 96 S3000 with thin steel sleeves. It was absolutely no slower than it was with Nik sleeves and the bores stayed straighter. I also built an F-1 (steel with carbs) motor which we tested at Bay City. The fastest qualifyier that day ran 119 this motor ran 117.8. The real problem with the 2.5 block is that it's too weak and the sleeves move around in it. It really needs to have a closed deck to give proper cylinder support. Then the pistons wouldn't have too be so loose. Unfortunately it wouldn't be able to be casted that way without changing the procedure and tooling$$$$$$$$. Smooth cylinders may work for a short time. With plateau honing you get great oil retention with better ring contact = more power. longer engine life.......

[B.Leonard]

Greg you're starting to persuade me. I might just try this when I redo my 2.6.

Break in might also help level/polish any microscopic high spots on the crank journals/rods and bearings as well. If they're all new or have been cut or polished. Remember they do actually touch each other as opposed to a babbit pressure fed bearing. No valvetrain though! Good grief! that's the best part!

-BL

[B.Leonard]

Smooth for power, crosshatch for longevity. In between is a compromise of one or the other.

-BL

[Instigator]

I believed what you just said.
I always though you needed some roughness to the bore to "wear in" your rings.
Only time I ever heard different was for chrome rings??
Also very interesting, the lack of HP difference between a Nik/steel cylinder even though every book says the opposite!!
I am also a beliver in the closed deck.
Spend all the money to get a block line bored and then it has cylinders flooping around in the breeze??
Bill, who's F-1, Nydahls??
You going to Jasper??

[Bill Gohr]

Ya I built that thing for this little loophole in the rules that included steel sleeve, no injection, no rev limiter. I thought it was a cool rule. After we ran qualifying though. PROP didn't think so.

[Bill Gohr]

I think I'm going to Jasper, The guy I sold my 84 boat to told me to take it and run it down there, if I break it he pays me to fix it. Lets think about that?????????????????????????






Ok

[us1]

The point I was trying to make with the smooth hone job was for running a Titanium rings in steel bore. The Titanium ring will be worn to nothing in just a few hours if you don’t do a slick hone. Many motors can be broken in fast and immediately raced but a steel sleeve 2.5 used without thermostats and popet need a long slow break-in until the piston shrinks .001. If not it will scuff big time.

[B.Leonard]

That "wear in" on rings is a bunch of hooey!

It's true for rings on stock automotive applications wear they are plain cast with no finish at all (plsma, chrome whatever) and are very rough, but these 2cycle rings have a very fine finish and are very thin. Greg says he is getting the compression #s so I have to believe it's working.

But there might just be a longevity issue. Gohr has a good point.

-BL

[Bill Gohr]

different subject. You're correct on what you said but it's being done for a different reason. You're trying not to wear the ring cause it's the wrong ring. Ti coated stainless steel rings are not the correct material for a steel motor. People are trying to do this cause they can't get the correct rings any more if you're using rings that go over the pin.......

[Jay Smith]

I use Dave Hensley in Tenn. for my steel sleeve work, anyone that has ever uesd him will have found themselves a sleeve man as Greg Moss sends all his stuff to Dave now that I have turned him on to the Tenn. connection, Dave is a racer and is running a JSRE motor in Pro Gas with some of the new sleeve changes he is trying on his motor so the changes will be proven in race conditions so we know they will work on the average lake racen guy's motor . Dave is also starting the Nic. sleeves now too. The ultra slick hone is the only way we have found the Titan. ring will live and I have found the advantage of the bore staying "round" and sealing better over weighs any if any friction increase with the steel. Pro Stock NHRA cars have been using the Titan. one ring system for a while and now US chrome has the process to apply the Nicom coatings to a steel sleeve which will be an advantage to the outboarders too as you will have the slickness of the coating and the ridgness of steel to stay straight and not egg shape under loads.

Good luck and good boating !

See ya'll in Jasper !
Jay @ JSRE

[Jay Smith]

Dave Hensley found out by looking tru a Microscope that the Nic sleeve hone job is MUCH more abrasive that the sleeve with the ultra slick hone ( if you can believe it ) what the problem is is not the materials incombatabilitys it is the heat transfer or the lack there of. I have disscussed this with Dave and John ( US1 ) and decided with John's running of the Parker Enduro with this set uo and living that all that needs to be done is more clearance. With the added clearances the piston can swell and cause no problems. When we ever had a piston ever fail on the Ti to steel bore it was the piston at the exhaust port smearing not the ring prematurley wearing or scuffing. Dave measured a nic sleeve and a steel sleeve the other day when a block was heated to 350 degrees for removal of a damaged sleeve and found the Alum. nic sleeve swole over double what the comparable steel sleeve liner did , that is why the Nic motor is prone to egg and to loose power when up to operating temperature. When push comes to shove a person will have to make his or her own dicision on what combo to run but it seems as if Mercury by not offering a chrome ring for the steel bore is trying to back people into a corner and force a move and I think that there are alternants a person can choose.

Good luck and good boating !

Jay @ JSRE

[Greg Moss]

Bill I ran a 2.5 for 2 years with a slick finnish on the bores with NOw get this wiesco's in it . The pistons did not scuff the rings had good sealing and they lasted. the only reason I tore it down was the damn clips that hold the wrist pins in lost there tension and started coming out. Thats 2 years of running the dog sh*t out of it on the river. Thats good longitivity for me. I am building a nohter motor the same way I will keep you all informed on the longitivity of it. I use chrome rings and promarine pistons in this one and I no longer use the c-clips for my wrist pins I use Spiro-Lox they are not going to loose there tension or comeout unless you take them out I would recomend any one that builds a motor use them.

[B.Leonard]

I'll bet the advent of better oils (especially synthetics) has made longevity of smooth honing less of an issue as well.

-BL

[mercrazy]

what's a spirolox and how does it fasten?

[Jay Smith]

Ya just keep feeding the flat coil into the groove till its all loaded.
Great piece if ya got the patients . LOL........... :) Most spirolocs are designed for a square bottomed grooves not an oval though like most OB applications. Greg is correct once ya get em in they're there!

Jay @ JSRE

[mercrazy]

will the pro-marine pistons live up to 8000rpm?
are they cast or forged?
how much clearance should they have in a slick bore?
do they offer standard and hi-performance pistons?

[Greg Moss]

I have heard that they willlast like the hiper pistons. I am having mine froze to give them even more strength. I don't like running a zillion RPMs so I will be keeping the RPMs down 8000 or so. They should stay together just fine that way. I have run cast marc pistons that way for a long time with no problems. I think a lot of the RPM limits Mercury tries to come up with is to scare people to buy the high dollar piston that fail just a quick as the cheaper ones.