1986 Yamaha 225: Good motor?

[imq707s]

Anyone have experiance with 1986 Yamaha Excell 2.6 225hp motors? Are they very reliable? Any good for performance applications? What kind of rpms can they spin without coming apart? Are the gearcases very strong?

Thanks

[Markus]

I am not sure the Excel was out in 1986. I think the 220 Special still ruled back then. I could be mistaken, though. Both are good engines.

The gearcases are strong at most applications, but they do not last when jacked up to extreme heights.

As to the other questions, I think you are the one who sent me an email last week.

[J Lamb]

No they're no good, send it to me:D . Marcus may be right about the year. I thought they started in 87 with the Excell. Limiter is 6250 I think. look for post by Jeff ??????. he was turning a 2.6 to some real high rpms before it came apart somewhere around 9 grand but it wasn't stock.:D

[imq707s]

It's an 87, sorry.

[Markus]

The Excel has some kind of fancy ignition system. If I remember correctly, once you get above about 6000 rpm, the timing module gradually decreases timing. If you want to run high rpm, you need an ignition system off a 200 of the same era.

But the rotating assembly can take high rpm without grenading. The Pro-V 2.6 had the same 7500 max rpm as the Mercury engines it was supposed compete with.

[jbf2002]

gent's,

i used to own a '90 hydrostream vaserette with a 2.6 yamaha and i had very good luck with this powerhead it still had the oil injection hooked up and would spin a 27"hoss triton 6600 rpm not too bad for a family cruiser bowrider. that is right at the rpm edge for the oil pump if i were to look back i would remove the pump and premix. the only bad part of the package is the lower unit. when you spin a large wheel the output shaft seal tends to leak the gear oil out so a watchful eye can prevent this. i wrecked one this way so i speak from experience. i think they run really well for most applications but for the extreme end of things you can build more power for the less money with the merc stuff. i'm not saying anything bad about the yamaha, just they were never designed for extreme hot rodding, my old boat still runs well to this day.

jbf

[imq707s]

I was wondering when you were going to jump in Charlie :D

[Markus]

The Pro-V 2.6 did not have oil injection, so evidently Yamaha did not trust the Autolube system to work all the way up to 7500.

Your other points about the oil injection is correct, Charlie.

My understanding of the Excel ignition system is that you can indeed disconnect the limiter, but the engine will still retard the timing, so there is not much point in doing it. I do not have the service manual right here, but I am quite sure that that is the case.

[Ray Neudecker]

You can disconnect the limiter, the knock sensor will still retard the timing if it knocks unless you disconnect it too. Not a very good idea to do away with the knock sensor.

[stvgar]

I remember guys installing bronze bushings in place of quickly wearing plastic bushings in the mid-sections to remove slop for Hi-performance applications.
Gary

[Markus]

Charlie: Interesting. That could be the way to go! It should not be too hard fiddling with the oil injection to get to 1:40 or 1:32 either.

Last time I fiddled with the oil injection on a Yamaha, I had to get a new crank, new bearings and 1 OD piston, though. :p

Ray: Are you sure disconnecting the rev. limiter helps? I am pretty sure the Excel still retards the timing. I think that is why Hydro-Tec came out with that "Decomputer Kit".

[Boz]

My 1993 200 Pro-V is oil injected. Won't be this summer. I've heard from more than one source that the injection is good until 7500; that's pretty good. It adds weight though, if that's of concern. It is for me so I'm ditching it.

[jbf2002]

boz,

i think you are on the right track removing the oil pump. this way you have no thought of the crank gear failing, and i have seen more than one take a dump. the real stress on the oil pump gears occur during decelleration of the crankshaft. i myself would never spin it up past 6800-6900 and if i did i would be very ginger on the throttle on the way down. or i would not expect the thing to work very long, seems to me that's a lot of money to fool around with when all you have to do is premix and not think about the pump again.

but if the person is hell bent on running the pump i would recommend removing the actuator rod from the pump and safety wire the pump to wide open which is in the neighborhood of 40:1 or so. oil is cheap and the powerhead isn't, i used to idle mine around quite a bit and it did not seem to load up, still had good snappy throttle response. all in all mine was a great running engine. good luck.

jbf

[Boz]

I'm at 6800 w/ my 29 srx. I'm, ultimatley, wanting to spin at 7300 to 7500. I do not want to be worrying about my oil pump, gear, whatever. It's a long haul back to your neighborhood.......then again, if we end up hooking up w/ your "bashful friend" again a.k.a. Bobbi jo,.......

I need to bump my engine back up to the height Randy set it at when I was down there; I moved it 1/2 an inch down and ended up scrubbing top end off. This summer will suprise more than myself. I have an idea of what my top end will be; I can name three people in my city who doubt that...........:D
You drove Lances HST before and after foam and I'll bet $$ mine had way more wet crap in it than his.
(geez, now it sounds like I'm talking smack.......;) )

Any idea what Randys old HST runs for numbers now?


Boz

[ProComp]

Doubting you speed?..................I'll tell ya what were doubting and that is the fact your boat will be back together for this summer.

Time to get motivated as spring is around the corner and everyone is going to have less FREE time.

Hopefully were not going to have to refer to you as DOCKBOY!

ProComp

[Boz]

I would have like to have started back but I tore my rotator cuff in my left shoulder playing hockey. That's making it difficult to do much hence rolling the snowmobile at 2 mph:( I don't have strength in it.

I'll make you a deal though; I'll give you guys the keys to the shop and you can start w/o me........:D

I'll get on it next weekend; I guess I'll NEED to drink Crown to numb the pain;)

Boz

[jbf2002]

boz,

well i really don't know what that boat did on the big end. as you recall that had the floor pulled and the wheel in the center so it ended up being pretty light for a hst. i'm not sure how much gain you will get up at 7500rpm with stock porting. my 2.6 kinda petered out at about 6800 or so. i think with all the weight you removed you will swing a bigger wheel at the same general rpm and this should be a nice gain as well as the extra punch assoicated with reduced weight.

Crown Royal does have it's merits for pain removal, however it does nothing when workin with a broken heart so be careful around bobbi jo and her posse.....over.

jbf

[Boz]

Careful around Bobbi Jo and her what??:D

[baja200merk]

happens when you try to get power out of a 2.6

i think this was jeff????'s??

[Ray Neudecker]

Marcus,the 225 computer did drop the timing to 24 degrees for top end. But it gave you 30 degrees out of the hole. The 220 gave 34 degree out of the hole and retarded to 26 for top end. This is at WFO. There were a lot of kits sold, mainly because of salesmanship. Even though the kit allowed you to retard the timing back to 18-20 degrees which gave you a couple of hundred RPMs. They also eliminated the problems with keeping throttle position sensors set. Many people did not understand that premium fuel was required to run with the computer. It was aggravatting to have it retard the timing when you were trying to plane off and it kicked off the knock sensor. -7 degree timing doesn't give much power. The kit cured that. I don't know how many of the engines that had the conversion lived or how long. There are still lots of the nonconverted ones still running. As to the picture of Yammer's motor, there have been many more of other brands just like it when the operator made a long 9200 rpm run with insufficent jetting or at a too low ECM setting. Lean them out and they blow. The stronger they are the harder they blow.

[Markus]

My impression was that timing just kept dropping and dropping and dropping when you got past about 6000 rpm. But I have probably misunderstood the service manual.

If I remember correctly (I am not sure I do anymore ;) ) the Excel held timing retarded for quite a while once a knock had been detected.

Anyway, Yamahas are fine engines and they can live at high RPM. The castings and manufacturing precision are just awesome and the electronics are by far the most reliable in the industry.

[jbf2002]

boz,

this has taken on a new flavor. the computers in question either 220 or 225 types do not exceed excessive timing advance in the midrange so if used on a large pleasure boat e.g. a boston whaler they would tend to detonate faster than the key could be turned off. if they actually did this they would be in high demand and every one would want one for high performance type use. from past experiance with this power in mod vp the standard ignition was one to one and a half seconds faster per lap depending on course size. according to the yamaha service manual in my hand for a 225D which is a modern version of the same thing. the full timing advance will not exceed 22.0 degrees with an error of +3 or -2. the 1987 model guide states for the 220 model that the max advance is 26 degrees and 22 degrees for the 225 model with the same margin of error as the d model. also the manusl further states that if you jump the red and white connections on the throttle position sensor (un plug and jump the red and white as this makes the comp. think the tps is a closed circut and will fully advance the timing) this can be done with the engine at idle and can be confirmed with timing light. when checking full advance if the timing is either 3.2 or 8.0 retarded from full advance the knock sensor circut is activated. the d model went in sequences of 1.6 if a knock is detected it will double and go to 3.2 and add another 4.8 to give a total of 9.6 degrees if needed. a diagram/chart is on page 33 if needed.

p.s if you can get a stock rod 2.6 to rev to 9000+ you can measure it's life with a stopwach, and you will have a ventilated block. maybe some protective gear is in order so you don't get hit in the head with misc. parts. you know that no matter what brand you run, they all blow up when run past their limitations.

have fun and be safe,

jbf

[baja200merk]

Originally posted by Ray Neudecker
As to the picture of Yammer's motor, there have been many more of other brands just like it when the operator made a long 9200 rpm run with insufficent jetting or at a too low ECM setting. Lean them out and they blow. The stronger they are the harder they blow.


that musthave been one strong motor:eek: :eek:

what compression was he running?:confused:

[Markus]

But at 8k they last.

[Boz]

correct me if I'm wrong, and I may be, but didn't you stuff a piston in your Johnson? I don't see you posting a picture of it.....

[Boz]

And I thought you were just a pretty face......

Boz

[Ray Neudecker]

He was running about 120 lbs. of compression.

[baja200merk]

theres a picture of my blown slomc in every thread but this one!!

i figured u guys were tired of seeing it;)

u think ill have an omc next year?!?!?!?! lol!!:D

i had 125psi in 5 cyls lol

here boz feel better?

it looked like this and still spun up to 6300

[baja200merk]

ignor who:confused:

[jbf2002]

boz,

thanks for the nice comment, i still have to say that the yamaha is a fine powerhead, don't get me wrong but if you run it like it was intended it works very well. i just said that it does not lend itself to major hot roddin' with out a hefty load of cash and a low time between catastrophic failures.

8-grand guy, maybe i'm missing the point i'm not trying to say that mine is bigger than anybodys, what i'm trying to say is the powerhead in question is stock. the 2.6 makes the bulk of it's power at about 5975-6100. after this the power curve drops off sharp, so why rev the thing up where it dose'nt make ant more power than it does at 6000 and it's life is limited. the rod and bolt assembly is the weak link, not pickin' on the yammi just looking at it different. past mod vp experience will tell that, say a parker enduro powerhead sometimes lived for the whole race at 7300-7500. mind you rod failure was usually the cause.

you know that the same is true for merc or any other brand if you exceed the design limits......ka-pow....is usually the sound.

jbf

[baja200merk]

a yammi will out run any other stock motor

( time wise ) :D

[baja200merk]

wtf are you talking about charlie? i was asking!!!

didnt know it would affend you

and
Ian if I where you just dont buy the motor I guess i put a time bomb together and its past due to blow up

that means wut?

[ProComp]

and let the motor speak for itself!!!!!!!

http://veepers01.budlight.com/service/RetrieveCard?id=F1A9B42E-6722-11D8-88FB-E3635E514682

ProComp

[Riverman]

Tat was priceless Brad!!

[baja200merk]

sorry every one for wat ever i did? incase i hurt any one elses feelings:p

hey pro comp wat are those bud light things they say play but nothing ever plays when i press it?

[jbf2002]

well, now i guess we know who has a motor for sale. i still say that those 2.6 powerheads are a great choice in stock form. no offense meant to any one. this is a forum and i gave my past experiece and some data from the yammi manual. the past experence is based on 13 mod vp powerheads and several sport boat powerheads. and lower units.


jbf

[Markus]

Of course no-one in their sane mind would run a Yamaha with stock porting to 8000 rpm.

I have both modified Yamahas and a stock 2.5 EFI. As you say, the Mercury is by far the easier route to performance. But a modified Yamaha built the right way will last a long time.

[J Lamb]

How about lower unit durability, specifically a 2.0 case. On my 3rd one and kinda worried. This one is brand new though:D . I'll stick with Yamaha cause it's been good overall.

[Markus]

Yamaha lower units do not like to be run really high. Except that, they are very strong.

[jbf2002]

markus,

i agree, my personal 2.6 was lightly modified heads carbs reeds tuner and a very light polish. it made decent power up to about 6700 rpm and still idled very well without loading up. on the same hull i would have no problem having another.

jbf

[baja200merk]

Originally posted by Markus
Of course no-one in their sane mind would run a Yamaha with stock porting to 8000 rpm.

I have both modified Yamahas and a stock 2.5 EFI. As you say, the Mercury is by far the easier route to performance. But a modified Yamaha built the right way will last a long time.

how long does a good motor last if its spinning 8000rpm?

kevin:confused:

[Ray Neudecker]

How long a Yamaha or any other motor lasts spinning 8000 RPM's has a lot to do with a lot of things besides how well it is manufactored. We have one engine which reguarly turns 8500 at the drags. We have run it seven years and won several championships with it. If you took off down the lake and just kept running until it blew, I doubt it would get out of sight. There are several motors which have been ported the same and are on bass boats turning 6800 or so that have also lasted a number of years without fail. If you put a small enough prop on to turn 8000 or more, the performance would go way down and I wouldn't expect them to have a long life. The rod failures I saw in the Mod VP race engines were caused by a piston siezing first breaking the rod. Those motors were built with 2.75 thousands total clearance and used cast pistons. When they were leaned out the siezure was one where you needed a hammer to get the piston out of the sleeve. All of this is far afield of the information that was requested by the original poster. I feel sure since there is no such thing as Mod VP racing, that he was looking for information on how good an engine it was for more normal use. It has proven to be both very strong and reliable for any type use.

[flyboy]

I have a 1990 225 hp (carbed) yami on a 88 voyager xt and the previous owner has snipped the rev limiter. I used to run a 26 pitch small tube laser on it to up to 6200 rpm. I have seen as high as 6600rpm with shorter props but have not run them regularly. The motor is stock and still has the oil injection hooked up. As far as I know the motor has never been rebuilt and still pushes the boat to 72mph. I have not had a leakdown on it but it was dynoed last year to origianl hp specs. Several guys have told me I can easily run it up into the high 6000s no problem. But the best speed has always happened closer to 6000 rpm.

What do you guys reccomend to get the most out of it ?

Flyboy

[Markus]

Yes, top speed should be close to 6000 rpm on an engine with stock porting.

For more performance, start with tighter heads, then porting and finger porting.

[Ray Neudecker]

Basically the same motor with a diferent crank and electronics from the 89 and back. 58-6200 always seemed to give the best perfomance and speed stock.

[flyboy]

Thnaks guys for the performance pointers guys. I appreciate it.

Flyboy

[bully]

Hey guys

What should my total advance be on my 89 excel that is stock?

I have removed the computer and have her set at 24 degrees.

I saw in an earlier post about 18-20 degrees to get higher rpms. Right now I am only turning 5600rpm. I have lost 200rpm somewhere.