Maybe Someone Can Help Me!!!!!

[PEANUT STAUDENMIER]

I HAVE GONE THRU BAD TIMES WITH MY 2.5 260 HP MARINER OFFSORE....ITS A 97 MODEL....BOUGHT IN 99....BURNT A PISTON IN MAY....MY MECHANIC PUT IT BACK TOGETHER, I TOOK IT OUT TO BREAK IN....SAME PISTON LOCKED UP ON ME AFTER ABOUT 5 MINUTES OF DRIVING....TORE DOWN....DID THE SAME THING BUT I CHANGED OUT ALL INJECTORS THIS TIME....TOOK IT OUT TO BREAK IN AGAIN...LASTED ABOUT AN HOUR...SAME THING PISTON LOCKED UP ON SAME CYLINDER WHICH IS #2.....I HAVE NOW BOUGHT NEW SWITCH BOXES AND A NEW ECU WIRING HARNESS..I AM CURRENTLY WAITING TO GET MOTOR BACK TOGETHER.....AM I HEADING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION AS TO WHAT I AM FIXING TO CHANGE OUT OR COULD THERE BE ANOTHER PROBLEM WAITING FOR ME AGAIN...PLEASE IF ANY ONE CAN SHED SOME LIGHT I DEFINETLY WILL APPRECIATE IT...ITS STARTING TO GET EXPENSIVE....LOL...AND BY THE WAY I AM STILL RESLEEVING WITH A NICASYL SLEEVE AND STOCK PISTON FROM MERCURY AND RINGS......

[dennymac]

is your mechanic resleeving the motor...if so, nickasil or steel....if not, what's he doing to clean up the cylinder....what kind of pistons and rings are you going back with?....next time, don't buy new injectors....you can send them off to a couple places to get them checked out and flowed to the pressure you are running...kinsler comes to mind...also when it sticks a piston, are you putting around or are you into it.....

[Jay Smith]

Peanut,
I would have to have more information as to the sleeve replacement and piston choice made before I would give you any advice. I have been using steel sleeves in the nic replacements because of the VERY expensive nic replacements sleeve cost and as money is at a premium these days it is a factor I have had very good luck with some of the Merc. Hi Per piston application with the Titanium rings ( with the ultra slick hone job done ) and I have had some, along with even Nic sleeve done by the company that does them for Mercury , that have failed also. We have come to the conclusion that the piston ALWAYS transfers metal above and around the exhaust port due to the steel sleeve expansion rate and are working to give the sleeve more clearence because the steel has a tendency to expand less ( much less ) than alum.
Sorry you are having problems give us a call and maybe we can track down the problem !

1 281 576 5088 CST
Jay @ JSRE

[PEANUT STAUDENMIER]

THANKS FOR THE SPEEDY REPLY...WE RGOING BACK WITH NICKEL SLEEVE AND STOCK PISTON FROM FACTORY....THAT IS ALL THE INFO I CAN GIVE...I AM NOT A GURU...JUST GOING BY WHAT MY MECHANIC IS TELLING ME.....ALTHOUGH I DO APPRECIATE THE FEEDBACK....

THANKS ALOT, PEANUT.............

[Raceman]

Jay, you made reference to the Nico sleeve replacement, as did Peanut in his last reply. When mine were done with nicosyl, I was told the only 2 options were steel sleeve or complete nicosyl cylinder done to the bottom of the block. This is how mine was done. Is there an option of just nicosyl sleeves?

[dennymac]

raceman, if you're asking if you can get just one nic sleeve done...yes, several people doing them....be careful, get someone that's done them for a while...i had a real bad experience with a shop called "golden precision machine shop" in eagle rock, Mo....
they screwed up my block pretty bad.....i'd recommend someone like ruk ( that's who i use now) or someone like that.....mercury tells people that you have to get a sleeve put in and then get the whole block recoated...not so.....although, if you've got a good nic motor that's just gotten worn out..for, i believe around $650 you can have it recoated and be like new again.....

[Raceman]

Denny, I don't think you understood my question. My definition of a sleeve is boring a cyl out and pressing a sleeve inside what's left. That's not what was done to my block. It had 2 entire cyl's removed, all the way to the bottom of the block and 2 complete Nicosyl cyl's put in at this point. My question is, are there now nicosyl sleeves that are pressed in INSIDE the existing cyl, much like the proceedure for steel sleeving?

[Techno]

What was your oil mix?
Break in procedure?

[Jay Smith]

Raceman,

To replace a damaged NIC sleeve with NIC the block is heated and the damaged sleeve is pulled out and a replacement is pressed in its place then ground to proper clearences with a 5 sided diamond hone.

Jay @ JSRE

[Raceman]

Jay, I'm still a little confused by terminology here. By sleeve, do you mean the entire cyl. all the way to the bottom of the block? The ones that were done in my block are noticeably thicker and have grooves machined around them at the top on the outside, almost like ring grooves in a piston.

[Jay Smith]

Give me a call you got me confused now ! LOL...............

1 281 576 5088 CST
Jay @ JSRE

[us1]

Raceman it sound like you have what is called a flanged sleeve which is much thicker and completely replaces the top 25% of the cylinder going most of the way to the bottom. It sits on a step at the bottom.

Peanut, what is your water pressure doing? It sounds like a block with no pressure, blocked flow, or low flow, #2 is always the first to go in this situation.

Peanut

If the sleeve job is done correctly with the proper clearance, ring gap ect. This is a must CC the injectors always after a blow-up. The 260 Bosch injectors at about 45 psi should put out about 480 CC's per minute. Next, fuel pressure guage at the dash, watch your fuel pressure, water pressure and temp are very important. If the above is all ok, Index the fly wheel and check timming on all the holes, I've seen a bad switch box cause this problem and also bad injectors, loose wire connection, bad ECU box, I heard of bad stators but I've never seen it. I know of a guy that had the same problem you are having and he took it to a dealer ( it was under warranty) they put 4 new power heads on his motor but used the same electroincs and the same piston took a dump everytime. It was the switch box causing all the trouble. It's hard to say without seeing the motor, some of the guys on this board can read the problem by just looking at the block, it's like reading a book to them..........Good luck........Uncle Tony:) :)

[Techno]

What should the breakin oil mix be? and what problems would it cause if it wasn't ?

[Jay Smith]

I always breakin @ 32:1 with quicksilver with low compression heads. 1 hour on the water hose closley montering the cylinders with a head gun. Then take to the lake and run 50 or so gals of gas with the above mentioined mix taking it up to 5000 or so every so often then bring it down varying the rpms . After the 50 gals are burned up put the higer compression heads syn oil and let er turn and burn !
I NEVER double oil ANY motor. If you think you running the motor rich at this mix sorry to say its the opposite as the viscosity is twice as thick it goes tru the metering system ( Jet or injector )twice as slow and oil creates and hold in heat which is not the desired results.
Good luck and good boating ,
Jay @ JSRE

[us1]

Uncle Tony has a really good idea I didn’t even think of, the switch box or trigger can malfunction and advance the timing to far on one cylinder only and cook the motor every time. Check the timing on that cylinder only and see if it differs from cylinder #1.

[MadMat]

I have an interesting thing that might help. It's a transparent spark plug so when the engine runs you can look inside the combustion chamber and see the flame colour. I used it when us1 was discussing which cylinders are producing the power at idle and it let's me see which cylinders are firing and also assess the flame colour to get a guideline for the mixture, cylinder by cylinder. (FYI John was right on the money about which cylinders do the work at idle).

[us1]

Where did you get such a spark plug.

[MadMat]

John,
From here...
http://www.gunson.co.uk/acatalog/Gunson_Catalogue_Exhaust_Gas_Analysers_Mixture_Control_5.html
Let me know what you think.

[us1]

Thanks Madmat, I am going to have to get on of these.

Raceman, we install and hone to clearance nikasil sleeves almost every week, check your E-mail
Noah/Eagle One

[Markus]

Mad Mat, one of those plugs would definitely be useful, and I understand how you use them when checking idling characteristics when you can look at the engine from behind, but how do you check combustion at WOT?

Do you use a camera or something?

[PEANUT STAUDENMIER]

I HAVE ANOTHER THING THAT COMES TO MIND ALSO GUYS....I AM RUNNING HEADS ON MY MOTOR WITH ABOUT 155 LBS OF COMPRESSION.....ALSO RUNNING STRAIGHT PUMP GAS..DO I NEED TO MIX SOME RACE GAS IN THERE WITH IT TO GET THE RIGHT MIXTURE TO MATCH THE COMPRESSION...I AM RUNNING 93 OCTANE NOW.... PEANUT.........

[us1]

Yes I would run 98 to 100. 155 LBS is over the line for pump gas. CC the injectors aswell.

[MadMat]

Markus,
To be honest I have never tried to run WOT with one of these installed and if I wanted to do so would probably find a test wheel to use.

However, it does come with a mirror attachment so you don't have to be in a direct line of sight of it.

[us1]

How to CC injectors without EFI tester, unplug harness at ECU, remove injector rail, remove all electrical connection from injectors, stick a hot pin through each of the two wires on one of the injector electrical plugs, connect a 9 volt transistor radio battery to the pins (9 volt battery socket and wiring is available at Radio Shack), plug the modified injector plug on one of the injectors, with the battery in place the injector will open immediately, turn on fuel pump with injector pointing into oil ratio cup with CC markings, pump for 30 seconds, multiply CCs pumped by two and you have CCs per minute, it should be about 650 CC and all even.

[Mark75H]

http://members.aol.com/eezibleed/

[Jay Smith]

Peanut,

Send your injectors to Kinsler , they will flow them and give you a computer read out as to the flow per.injector at a given duration and pressure and put each on a curve , takes away the guessing.
Dirt cheap compared to a motor @ $ 95.00 for the set of six talk to Brad we use them weekly 3 or 4 day turnaround times.


1 248 362 1145
Kinsler Fuel Injector
1834 Thunderbird St.
Troy, Mich. 48084

Good luck,
Jay @ JSRE

[PEANUT STAUDENMIER]

JAY, AGAIN THANKS FOR THE INFO I WILL DO THAT AS SOON A S I GET IT BACK...WHICH WILL BE THIS WEEK AS I WAS INFORMED TODAY....MY MECHANIC WANTS ME TO GET HIM THE ELECTRICAL PARTS I HAVE BOUGHT SO HE CAN PUT THEM ON NOW....I AM GOING TO GIVE THEM TO HIM TOMORROW....SWITCH BOXES AND ECU WIRING HARNESS....JAY IS THERE ANY REASON WHY HE DOESNT WANT ME THERE TO WATCH HIM PUT THIS TOGETHER....AS FOR HES SUPPOSED TO BE ONE OF MY BEST FRIENDS...CANT FIGURE IT OUT...THANKS AGAIN...PEANUT.....

[Jay Smith]

Peanut,

Sorry I can't speak for him or justify why he will not let you watch, I have never had a problem with a customer that is paying good hard earned money watch me do anything to his motor even port work as he can tear it down when he gets home anyway and if he owns a pair of calibers and a set of mics can measure any cuts that are made. ANY competent machinist can COPY something he can measure, that what a machinist does make one thing look like an example in every detail. Some mechanics would maybe feel threatened by you gaining knowledge on how to work and repair your motor and maybe cut him out of a labor charge. After all anyone that has wrenched on an outboard can attest to the fact it ain't rocket science. There are quite a few tricks and short cuts that over the years I have learned and if you did'nt know them could and will damage a very expensive motor but I would have no problem sharing my experences with anyone thats why I try to help on the board.

Good luck and good boating ,
Jay @ JSRE

[us1]

HI Jay, did you get my email with my phone number. If you still want to talk to me call any time.

[PEANUT STAUDENMIER]

YES JAY U HAVE A POINT...SHORTCUTS AND ODDS AND ENDS..LOL...BUT THIS HAS NEVER BEEN A PROBLEM WITH HIM B4..
I HELPED HIM ON THE FIRST ONE...AND I HAVE EVEN HELPED HIM ON OTHERS...JUST CANT FIGURE IT OUT...BUT AS LONG AS IT STAYS TOGETHER THIS TIME...IF IT DOESNT...GET READY IM COMIN TO C YA...LOL...THANKS FOR THE INFO......HAVE A GOOD ONE..
PEANUT........

[Jay Smith]

John,
No I did not recieve your number , but I would like to chat with you.

[email protected] 1 281 576 5088cst
1 281 576 5886 fax
or go thru the web site
www.jaysmithracing.com
PS I am alittle skiddish opening mail as all the viruses around may have in deleted it by mistake, try again , Sorry

Jay @ JSRE

[Greg Moss]

I don't even know how many motors I have built over the years. I do not let people look over my shoulder when I am building one,Period it is not in your best interest. Building motors is not rocket science like jay says but does require ALL of your attention. Customers always sit there and ask questions will distract you when you are doing something and then the question is always in my mind did I get distracted and forget something. I always try to put the phone on the answering machine when I build a motor. Look at it this way do you want someone in the operating room when the doctor is doing open heart surgury? Hell no and you should leave the guy building your motor alone also. Just my opinion Now to the motor burning up #2 you need to check you cooling there has to be something wrong with it if you have access to a Raytec temp gun or something like that check the temp on each plug make sure they are all even or you have some thing wrong with the cooling system. If your buddy has a test wheel so you can run the motor up and check it that would be best. All the cylinders should run withiin 10 degrees of each other if your cooling is working right.