Johnson Rotary Engine

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[HANS O LUEDTKE]

MAN WHAT A RACE MOTOR!!!!!
THANK YOU FOR THE PIC!!!!!!!!
OMC NUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HANS LUEDTKE

[Raceman]

Those are the best Rotary pics I've ever seen HC. Where are those motors now? That old Rotary was as ugly as it was fast, and it was SUPER FAST.

[LakeRacer99]

Oh my. Those get my vote for snapshots of the month!
Excellent show HC, now please tell...

[kingsbiship]

Is there any driveshaft in there? Looks like
the powerhead bolts rite to the prop!

[ken medendorp]

what kind of horse power and what would those motor's turn for rpm . I have nver seen one before .

[Crab Claw]

I notice that the V6 race motor is a F1 motor too!

[Raceman]

Although HC didn't answer the question when I asked, I understand those pictures are in OMC headquarters.

Usually when horspower questions are asked about old race engines around here the figures quoted are speculative and wildly optimistic, but it's safe to say the OMC rotary was the fastest thing on the water in it's day by a wide margin, but apparently there were some reliabilty issues. It would be interesting to see where the project would've gone if they'd stayed with it to maturity.

[Russ]

have you lit-off that F1 yet??? I wanna hear about it!

[P man]

Those rotary motas like to rev high dont they?
Id love to know how well they did getting out of the hole?
Did the gears have a real high ratio or did they just prop it with something real small?

[baja200merk]

that thing is sick

wat year is it

aint ther some one on the board that wanted to do that wit an

outboard?

[Hydrovector]

The carbs look like the ones off the Three cylinder loopers!!
also if you look at the back doors above the sign looks like it reads training center.

Mike

[Raceman]

Russ, the engine was missing a bunch of parts and I'm findin' em little by little. Since I haven't run in OMC circles it's been a challenge but I think I've got all the hard to find stuff now and just have to find some small stuff and get the crank fixed. As most of my projects go, it's comin' slowly but showly.

[T2x]

Originally posted by Raceman
Although HC didn't answer the question when I asked, I understand those pictures are in OMC headquarters.

Usually when horspower questions are asked about old race engines around here the figures quoted are speculative and wildly optimistic, but it's safe to say the OMC rotary was the fastest thing on the water in it's day by a wide margin, but apparently there were some reliabilty issues. It would be interesting to see where the project would've gone if they'd stayed with it to maturity.

The rotary raced in the period just before the v-6's emerged and out ran basically v-4's and in-line 6's........Later the V-6's seemed to run heads up with it. I remember watching Jimbo race one at Memphis.... and thinking that it made a lot of sense. Later I was told that it guzzled fuel at such a rate that it was completely impractical. My recollection was that horsepower estimates around 225 were bandied about....... and that Edgar Rose had been involved with the Wankel aircraft rotary while working for Curtis Wright prior to his OMC career. I also think I heard that OMC had the marine rights to the motor...but again this was a long time ago.

Finally, I came across a rotary powered inboard outboard 24 foot performance offshore hull about 6 or 7 years ago.......the owner, a husband of my local bank manager, had gotten a "deal" on the boat.... but, he couldn't find anyone to service it , and his wife asked for my help. When I looked at it and realised it was a rotary....... he had no idea what I was talking about.... I wound up sending him to a local Mazda dealer.... whose service manager bought it.... for a total song.

T2x

[keith scotton]

Motors are in training center I have about the same pictures also have picture of two rotor motor on 60 degree V6 mid built in early 90s will try to post picture. I think its nice they didnot scrap all the cool stuff they built.
Enjoy
KEITH

[wing nut]

Originally posted by Hydrovector
The carbs look like the ones off the Three cylinder loopers!!
also if you look at the back doors above the sign looks like it reads training center.

Mike


I was just going to say the same thing.. those carbs sure look like the 3cyl ones!

scott

[hydro-cat]

Just got the couputer back on line.

I've got some adjustments to do to it yet. Have to move sh** around to much to see it. I'll tell ya'll what I can about the motor, when I get this screen fixed the way I want it.



Tim

[Michael Martin]

I asked my father about it. He told me the one they ran on a tunnel was a gas hawg just as T2x stated. From what he remembered it burned almost twice what a x-flow v-6 did at that time. Also there were other problems but he couldnt remember.

The fuel issue could have been the cause of OMC dropping them. The HP obviuosly wasnt the problem.

Mike

[Casey]

here are a few pics keith asked me to post for him

[Casey]

pic

[Casey]

pic

[mk30h]

I'm impressed. What year is this 3 rotor engine. Looks like it is on the 3 cly mid section. Where is this engine , is it a pre production prototype. I had heard back in the early 70's that they were going to bring out Family outboards based on the wankel the following year. Never happened - but they must have been very close to going for it as this engine clearly demonstrates.

Does it run? Where is it, and how did it get there. It must have a story to tell us.

[Mark75H]

I'll bet its an OMC snowmobile engine adapted to the outboard

[ggarland]

Don't think so Sam. They were a lot smaller and air cooled. I worked on them when they were new, not very reliable engines, I am afraid. However, with more development time, I think they would be killer engines!! When they ran, they were very smooth and strong, but ate gas like you owned a oil well.
George

[keith scotton]

I was told this motor is two rotar . It has plastic carbs like 86 loopers and is on 25 inch 60 degree style V6 mid . Pans split down the back , motor is at bombardier service training school in Waukegan.

Enjoy
Keith

:D

[E-tec1]

They had a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. It was going to be a Sea drive only model. It was a water cooled version of the snow mo motor but a little different. It was being developed from '86-'89. I don't know if the rotory race motor is the same one but whenOMC went down and reopened as Bombardier, there was one rotary left in the archives and one of the new/old OMC chiefs had the motor dropped in the driveway of one of the other old chiefs just to piss him off. Wonder if someone made them go back and get it.

[R.Johnson]

Those engines look like the one's that are displayed in the hall way at the OMC service school in Waukegan, Ill. There are some great looking casting's on those engines. I spent most coffee break's just looking at them. They all look unused. Wonder what they would be worth?

[racer]

Just a part of what is in the archives.

[BOAT65747]

Originally posted by MTS1
They had a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. It was going to be a Sea drive only model. It was a water cooled version of the snow mo motor but a little different. It was being developed from '86-'89. I don't know if the rotory race motor is the same one but whenOMC went down and reopened as Bombardier, there was one rotary left in the archives and one of the new/old OMC chiefs had the motor dropped in the driveway of one of the other old chiefs just to piss him off. Wonder if someone made them go back and get it.


I'LL GO AND PICK IT UP.......:D

[W. Tripp]

The OMC Rotary Engine Project was done at the same time GM was working on theirs. The design made it to production in the OMC Snowmobile lines, but never as an outboard. To the best of my knowledge only 5-6 4-rotor outboards were ever built. The design was scrapped when GM ended their project, and the source of the rotor seals was forced to GREATLY increase the seal cost. The design had even more intake/exhaust overlap than a 2-stroke engine.

From what I have been able to find out, the engine design was sold to Freedom Motors, who have changed the intake flow path to draw through the rotor itself and reduce the overlap. They have also incorporated a self lubricating housing coating much like that used on turbine bearings. These are small capacity

The Moller Air Car uses engines based on this design. Moller (the creator of Supertrap Mufflers) uses several of the Freedom Motors rotary engines - one in each ducted fan.

[cvx20]

There are alot of benefits to the wankel engine, Wonder what would happen if you put Rx-7 engine on end and mount it to an outboard mid and lower section... hummm The wheels are turning in my head. By the way KILLER PICS!!!

[clydecleinmark]

You guys are right that rotary motors are gas guzzlers. In the mid 70's, Mazda had the RX 2, and 3. They could make big horsepower and seemed to wanna rev forever. When the EPA began publishing gas mileage figures, the rotarty took a big hit . I think the only one that was worse was the 76 Olds Tornado at 5-6 mpg.

[Cobalti]

Yes they were gas guzzlers in the early days, and they did have problems with the life span of the apex seals. We are, however talking about a long time ago, and it is amazing how the bad reputation has stuck for so long. Yet, there are thousands and thousands of RX7's on the roads around the world today where the drivers are having trouble free motoring.

By the time the rotary was invented, the conventional piston 4 stroke had a head start of many years, plus the wars where technology advanced a great deal for the aircraft industry. It was easier and cheaper for car companies to stick to what they knew.
Despite this, the few that were built even that long ago had a huge impact and stirred the immagination as the outboard by OMC did.

Thanks to a few companies that kept the R&D on these motors, we now have some real advances that result in motors like the new Mazda RX8 Nemesis. The power per size per fuel consumption of this motos is awesome. Hard to match considering the few parts that macke up one of these.

It is interesting that the 13b has been a choice engine for light air craft, and the benefits over a piston motor. 1, two plugs per chamber, if one fails the other will still work, the result a power loss (not stop). 2, in the event of overheating, the chamers and sideplates will expand away from the rotors, resulting in power loss (not stop). 3, no reciprocating components. 4, simple, small, light and very powerfull.

In drag racing they have a class of their own!

Some of you may already know I'm fitting a 13b to a 2.5 leg, but I must say that the more I learn about them as my motor is evolving into reality, the more I love and respect these things. It would be cool to see rotories coming back via OMC or mercury, even rather than 4 strokes, as they don't have valves, timing belts/chains cams valve springs, retainers, reeds, and many many parts all of which can fail, and need attention to.

As far as fuel consumption, my old 225 twostroke can consume 100 leaters of fuel in under an hour of racing. It is justified by its performance, and how much an equivalent V8 would use to acheive the same speed, So too is the rotary. :cool: :cool:

[cvx20]

How about posting some pictures!!! That would be cool to see.

How did you deal with the Oil system or is the engine still horizontal?

[us1]

That is too cool.

[Cobalti]

I already have photos of my motor bits and pieces. The most intricate and interesting part, the bellhousing, to mate the two, is at the moment at the pattern maker. A fair deal of time and thought has gone into it and that is the one I'm waiting to post a photo of. I will not go on any futher as I don't think this is the thread for it. One little question though, beeing new to S&F forums, which forum would be most appropriate for updates?

As I said before, it's awesome what OMC did so long ago with the rotary. I did hear however by a reliable source that Mercury experimented at lake X with rotaries by doing pretty much what I'm doing. They fit 4 (i think) 13b's out of new rx7's on outboard legs. They tried every thing at the time, but couldnt get the boats on plane (they never used forced induction). Once they were towed on plane, they went very well indeed. The project was scraped. Does any body out there know any more about it?

Technology has advanced considerably, and whatever the reason it didn't work back then can certainly be solved today. Even without forced induction. But I agree with Mercury, that forced inductin is definitely a good thing and a must have. Hmmm....those turbos....:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Rickracer]

Which technology would be more expensive, forced induction, or torque multiplication? And which would be better from a reliability standpoint. It seems to me that a 2 or 3 speed planetary trans some where in the mid would solve lots of problems, and open lots of possiblities. They could possibly make expansion chambers workeable, (forced induction from the backend, :-) ), and make for far less compromises in setup. Low end torque AND top end horsepower. :cool:

[Cobalti]

I'm with you all the way on that one. forced induction and planitary gears! they would allow a reverse, thus leaving the box to do only what it should without the bolk. With the weight saving of a rotary (it has far less parts to a twostroke V6), I woul dare to say a lesser weight than any big 4 stroke woul be attainable.

Is any one from Mercury or OMC design department reading this??:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Hydrovector]

Where was at one time a guy that converted a Mazda engine to a stern drive. I wonder if he is still in business. It showed good power to weight ratio. I think he even did a turbo!

[Mark75H]

Cobalti, the Technical forum is probably the best place to continue :)

This is all very interesting. Let me point out that all current motor development in the US follows motors that can meet the 2006 US Enviromental Protection Agency's air pollution reduction mandates.

I'm pretty certain that for a rotary engine to meet these strict standards you would have to use a three element catalytic converter which poses 4 problems on a production outboard:

(1) added weight
(2) added bulk
(3) added heat in the leg section
(necessary for the converter to function)
(4) added cost

[Cobalti]

It is a relevant point for the manufacturers. They must comply. I will find out more about that and how the rotary behaves. I do wonder about how the four strokes deal with emmissions. Do they have a catalitic converter?

The wenkal is in effect a Otto (4 stroke) motor. With clever engine management systems, the problem ought to be solved?

Interesting that the rotary is also the best motor type for using hydrogen fuel, which burns to create water. I'm not saying that is the way to go now, it may very well be the way of the future.

have a look at this... www.monito.com./wankel/hydrogen.html

[BarryStrawn]

Originally posted by Rickracer
Which technology would be more expensive, forced induction, or torque multiplication? And which would be better from a reliability standpoint. It seems to me that a 2 or 3 speed planetary trans some where in the mid would solve lots of problems, and open lots of possiblities. They could possibly make expansion chambers workeable, (forced induction from the backend, :-) ), and make for far less compromises in setup. Low end torque AND top end horsepower. :cool:


Torque multiplication in the mid would be a quick death for the lower unit gearset. But overdrive combined with a lower pitch prop would be interesting.

[TurbooLarry]

We have done alot with rotorys and I don't think it would be that bad of an engine for a boat. The EPA would be the problem. Rotarys run 3 cats to make them leagal on new cars. A stock rotory will run 7-8,000 rpm and with porting 10-12,000. They make 160-180 hp on carbs or injection and with a turbo 400-450 hp is easy. I think with a 1.87 or 2.0 leg with a 22-24 prop and 180 hp, a 18-20 ft. boat would get on plane no problem. With a 7-8,000 RPM it should have good top end also. Rotorys have come along way since invented and with 3 mm apex seals and new race parts avalible they are real reliable and make unreal HP to weight.

[Cobalti]

If it all works, it will become available.

[blkmtrfan]

Originally posted by Cobalti
If it all works, it will become available.

Cool, keep us posted :cool:

[mark benson]

What I want to know is why are they all Johnson Rotary engines & not Evinrudes? It was the Evinrude Super Strangler, but only the Johnson Stinger, as it has been pointed out to me.It always seemed like Johnson got short changed.By the way, how did the Johnson name ever enter the picture? Was this OMC's way to give Johnson some limelight? Wasn't it Oley Evinrude who started this thing building outboards in his kitchen in Chicago way back? Or was it a ploy, in case things didn't work out to not blemish the Evinrude name?:cheers:

[willabee]

What I want to know is why are they all Johnson Rotary engines & not Evinrudes?

They aren't.....

[Mark Poole ModVP]

OMC usually had four rotary boats at a race where they took them.Two Johnsons and two Evinrudes.

With all the pics and film that I have seen of the Havasu '72 race it looks like there were more Stinger GP cowls on the boats than Super Stranglers. Same motors.

[willabee]

OMC usually had four rotary boats at a race where they took them.Two Johnsons and two Evinrudes.

With all the pics and film that I have seen of the Havasu '72 race it looks like there were more Stinger GP cowls on the boats than Super Stranglers. Same motors.

I agree, I don't believe they ever ran more than four rotarys in any one event.

These placemats were on the restaurant dinner tables in Havasu in 1972. They show you exactly how many of each model were run on the Team boats and who ran them.

[mark benson]

So there was 2 Evinrude & 2 Johnson Rotarys racing at the same time. Sanders was always Johnson & McConnell was always Evinrude. The next 2 boats were up for grabs! I would think there would be at least 8 OMC Rotary Engines (4 Evinrude-4 Johnson) (besides display) :cheers:

[jackie wilson]

Really sad that the only record of the OMC Wankel effort is reduced to paper place mats from "THE NAUTICAL INN".
In the words of a famous Englishman, 'NEVER IN THE FIELD OF OUTBOARD HISTORY, HAS SO MUCH EXPENSE ,DEDICATION AND TECHNOLOGY, DELIVERED SO LITTLE.
This can be said of all the companies that tried ie; Daimler Benz, Rolls Royce etc, but most of them bailed out before bankruptcy came a knocking.

[jackie wilson]

Really sad that the only record of the OMC Wankel effort is reduced to paper place mats from "THE NAUTICAL INN".
In the words of a famous Englishman, 'NEVER IN THE FIELD OF OUTBOARD HISTORY, HAS SO MUCH EXPENSE ,DEDICATION AND TECHNOLOGY, DELIVERED SO LITTLE.
This can be said of all the companies that tried ie; Daimler Benz, Rolls Royce etc, but most of them bailed out before bankruptcy came a knocking.

[Mark75H]

So there was 2 Evinrude & 2 Johnson Rotarys racing at the same time. Sanders was always Johnson & McConnell was always Evinrude. The next 2 boats were up for grabs! I would think there would be at least 8 OMC Rotary Engines (4 Evinrude-4 Johnson) (besides display) :cheers:

2 and 2 ... John and I have said this over and over

There were always more parts available, but there were never more than 4 complete motors assembled at one time

[SCT]

I remember Mike Downard won a race in England back in the day with a Johnson rotary. Jackie, any chance you remember this race? I believe he ran w/ Posey.

[jackie wilson]

Was Windermere, The boat was not that quick on the day, but this race was on the back of Paris and Berlin, and both factories were suffering from breakages . Most of the top runners were down, and it looked like OMC were playing a sensible game and nursing it home. Was the only race i ever saw it finish in one piece.

[Rotary John]

Guys: There is the complete history on this site of the OMC rotary. Search wankel or rotary and find "The real story" It has lots of info and pictures and several arguments between Jackie and me. There was a total of 6 rotary engines, but above is correct in that a max of 4 were put on boats at any one time. There was usually a spare powerhead or 2 on the truck also. We kept pushing the limits of these engine everytime we raced. More HP and more RPM. We broke a lot of motors because of this, but that's how we learned. As far a gas guzzles, its simply not true. One must remember that this engine produced 50% more power than the V-4's and 6's of the time, so of course they would use more fuel. They ran on 87 octane motor fuel though, not 100 octane Av gas of the 2-strokes. On a specific basis, BSFC; hp per fuel used, the rotaries were far superior to the 2-strokes. The carbs were right from the rotary snow mobile engine with larger bores and venturis. We added a primer nozzle later on in the program. If anyone has questions after reading the posts, just ask and I'll try and give you an answer. I was the engineer on this motor at OMC.

[jackie wilson]

John00000John, how could you---we don't have arguments----we have rational discussions about the damn piece of equipment that nobody ever made a red cent out of. You know--------- "The Heartbreaker"--------.
Now tell me honestly John, were you EVER satisfied with the results the damn rotary ever gave you. ?
From what i've seen and heard, you spent a huge chunk of your life with the thing, so, if it gave 50% more power than a V6, i suppose it's fairly logical to assume it used 50% more fuel!!!!!!! Did it ????
Why did it break down so many times compared to say, a 2 stroke. or a normally aspirated 4 cycle. ??
Theoretically, with so few moving bits flying around, it should be a winner in most departments required of a successful combustion engine. Fact is though 'IT 'AIN'T' is it?
Smoother, quieter, more economical, reliable, cheap to produce, ?????? 2 out of 5 'ain't too bad if your not too fussy i suppose.
One thing i will say, it must have been pretty damn exciting to work with the thing, and there was always the possibility that you could succeed where so many others had failed.
How do you feel about that John, ? did you succeed ? i know you got 6 motors to run + spares !!!!!!!!
Don't suppose you have a ball park figure on what that little forage into the Rotary cost do you?? cranks at $12,000 a pop was not cheap in those days, Bearing in mind the COSWORTH with 400+ HP cost £25,000 ready to race, Not a great deal more than a full race trim Keith Black Motor of that era.
No offence to you John it's just a cranky old gits observations and discussions with a friend. J.

[mark benson]

So there was 2 Evinrude & 2 Johnson Rotarys racing at the same time. Sanders was always Johnson & McConnell was always Evinrude. The next 2 boats were up for grabs! I would think there would be at least 8 OMC Rotary Engines (4 Evinrude-4 Johnson) (besides display) :cheers:
A-ha! Just as I suspected. If OMC ran 2 Evinrudes & 2 Johnsons in a race, logically you would think they had one back-up (power-head at least) with all the parts they were breaking! Mark75H kept saying 4 Rotarys (2 Johnsons-2 Evinrudes). Now Rotary John says 6 Rotarys plus spare powerheads = 8. That makes more sense because you would think, as they were breaking them out on the racecourse, they were rebuilding the spare Rotarys to get them ready for the next race or should I say "Destruction Derby"!

[Jimboat]

Great thread, all of you guys!

Regardless of the ultimate outcome....the Rotary was an engineering marvel for the times! I only wish that OMC had stuck with it...who knows what we'd have today as a racing Rotary outboard?

[jackie wilson]

Great thread, all of you guys!

Regardless of the ultimate outcome....the Rotary was an engineering marvel for the times! I only wish that OMC had stuck with it...who knows what we'd have today as a racing Rotary outboard?

Hiya Jimboat, they thought it was an engineering marvel in the '20's and '30's when Rolls Royce and Daimler Benz had a pop at it, same again in the '70's with NSU and Chrysler. They all failed miserably with this flawed engineering marvel. Present day Mazda got their head in their hands and openly weeping about the damn thing-------IT IS NEVER GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING.
OMC kept going a few more years because they did drop it before the damn thing dropped them.
Don't you just love it when friends have a discussion. J.

[willabee]

.... There was a total of 6 rotary engines, but above is correct in that a max of 4 were put on boats at any one time. There was usually a spare powerhead or 2 on the truck also.....

:nonod: Mark.....you guys still havin' winter up there.....blood flowing a wee bit slow? Read what Rotary John said about the TOTAL NUMBER of rotary engines again. A max of......two Johnson's on boats, two Evinrudes on boats, two powerheads in the truck.....totals six of them thar heartbreakers. :p

[Jimboat]

Hiya Jimboat, they thought it was an engineering marvel in the '20's and '30's when Rolls Royce and Daimler Benz had a pop at it, same again in the '70's with NSU and Chrysler. They all failed miserably with this flawed engineering marvel. Present day Mazda got their head in their hands and openly weeping about the damn thing

Yes, there have been several companies that had a go at making a production Rotary engine work. I had a Mazda RX7 for a while, and really loved the engine...it would just rev and rev and rev. I wish OMC had made it go!

[Rotary John]

Guys: Once again Jackie and I are at it. First the number of engines. We had tons of spare parts. We could have built several, several more short blocks if we wanted to. The actual number of running engines was determined by the number of exhaust manifolds, 6, and the number of buckets and shrouds, 7. The 7th was the photo engine that was never fully machined and was the one sold on E-bay. I guess we could have made more, but there was no real need. We generally had 1 spare powerhead in the race truck and as been told before we actually rebuilt an engine in the hotel room in Provo. But that was the only time. The engines were torn down, inspected, rebuilt, broke in and dyno tested after each outing.
Jackie: We spent a TON of money, not only on the race engines but on the entire rotary program. The 2 major failures of the race engine was the big thru bolt that connected the 2 cranks and the rotor bearing. The only other race failure was a broke crankshaft that was my fault as I reground the cranks and sprayed stellite on them to save costs. Grinding thru the case lost all the strength and the crank broke. Johnny Sanders at Provo. The broken bolt was solve by elimenating it and replacing it with the turnbuckel. The rotor bearing problem was solved after the rotary race program ended, but was a result of the race rogram. I never got a chance to run the new bearing in an actual race before the program ended. The non-racing engines had 100's & 100's of hours on them sucessfully. The single rotor 50 HP and the twin rotor 120 HP were ready for release to production. They meet all the endurance requirements for OMC outboards at that time. It is an actual fact that the 125/135 HP V-4 would generally not live thru the same endurance testing. As I have said numerous times before, the decision to shelve the rotary program was political, not factual. I didn't speak clearly of fuel consumption. The 6 I refered to was the 100ci Mercury in line 6. The V-6's did'nt appear until the last year of the rotary. The 100ci engines were producing 175/200 HP while the rotary was producing 270/280. It was this comparrision I was making, not the V-6's. And if you recall the rotaries beat the V-6's at Windmere & St. Louis. You can argue all you want but the BSFC on the rotary was .45/.50; the OMC V-4's & V-6's were .65/.70 lbs/HP-Hr. I don't know what the Merc V-6 BSFC was. Remember also that both the V-4, 100ci and initial V-6 150ci were cross scavanged engines. The original 122ci Merc was loop charged. OMC went broke 30 years later over the Fitch injection system and lousy management, not the rotary. Them the facts man, not opinion!
:cheers:

[Rotary John]

Jackie you got me all wound up again. I hear in these and BRF posts about all the failures of the rotaries. lets see:
Parker; 2 for 2 failed rotor bearings due to setting the carbs to lean, BFSC .38. The week before we had complete 10 hrs on a race boat in FL.
Galvaston: no engine failures, Posey WON! Rich McKinley barrel rolled during the race and Bobby Witt tip over after the race. Both engines were dryed out and restarted.
Provo: 3 of 4 broke, but Posey WON! broke crankshaft, Sanders, failed bearing, Woods, broke crank bolt Jimbo.
Lake Carol; no engine failures Rotaries 1-2-3-4
Windemere: 2 of 3 broke, but Downard WON! broke crank bolt, Sanders and I don't remember
So. Africa; no engine failures, Sanders WON!
Paris; Posey hit a turn boey and took the side off the boat, Woods led the race till the last 15 min- rotor bearing failure due to all carb bolts loose.
St Louis; no engine failures, Homer Green gave the race to Merc.
Pewaukee; no engine failures
I hope I didn't forget one.
Also remember the Merc V-6's didn't finish their first 2 outings even though 2-cycles and 2-cycle racing had been around for 70 years.
Considering the extremely little testing OMC did between races, I was learning with every outing, making chages and racing them again. I enjoyed (an still miss) the race program. It taught me a lot as a young Engineer and am extremely proud of the accoplishment we had. I still believe OMC made a mistake not to continue with the rotary for production applications. But that was time gone by and nothing is going to change that. A 150hp twin or a 300hp sidewinder 4 in an I/O would have been a hell of a package and wouldn't have hurt OMC's I/O business or jeporised the 2-cycle market for outboards.
:)

[Mark75H]

I think it is odd that if there were ever spare powerheads in a truck ... they were never used when one broke.

I'm thinking the spares were not often in the truck ... make the number 4 and you are probably closer to correct most of the time if not always.

At any race time, the other 2 motors may or may not have been fully assembled even if they were not present.

Could this be accurate, John?

[mark benson]

:nonod: Mark.....you guys still havin' winter up there.....blood flowing a wee bit slow? Read what Rotary John said about the TOTAL NUMBER of rotary engines again. A max of......two Johnson's on boats, two Evinrudes on boats, two powerheads in the truck.....totals six of them thar heartbreakers. :p
I've been sharpening up my math skills today. 2 Evinrudes (2 boats) + 2 Johnsons (2 boats) + 1 spare Evinrude + 1 spare Johnson = 6 complete Rotarys + 1 Show-room (incomplete) rotary = 7, that could be in collectors hands. The reason for the complete extra Evinrude & Johnson is simple, if you think about it. At the reputed speeds they were travalling (120mph conservatively) at any second, one of the Rotary boats could have blown over & disintigrated sending the irreplacable Rotary engine (one of 4) to "Davie Jones' Locker", never to be found again on some of the courses they raced on. Can you immagine the imbarrassment on OMC's face to have lost one quarter of the Rotarys on the face of the earth & not even be able to field 2 Evinrudes & 2 Johnsons the next race the following weekend. I know you Mercury guys think OMC was dumb, but I don't think they were that stupid!:cheers:

[Rotary John]

I think it is odd that if there were ever spare powerheads in a truck ... they were never used when one broke.

I'm thinking the spares were not often in the truck ... make the number 4 and you are probably closer to correct most of the time if not always.

At any race time, the other 2 motors may or may not have been fully assembled even if they were not present.

Could this be accurate, John?
With the exception of Provo and Windemere, none of the engines broke in set up. That is, they broke during the race, thus it wasn't practical to try and replace a powerhead. At Provo, Jimbo actually broke 2 engines during setup. We used the spare, which he broke and as told earlier we rebuilt one in the hotel room. At Windemere, Johnny Sanders broke a crank bolt during setup. We didn't have a spare powerhead along for that race.
Rotary John

[jackie wilson]

Jackie you got me all wound up again. I hear in these and BRF posts about all the failures of the rotaries. lets see:
Parker; 2 for 2 failed rotor bearings due to setting the carbs to lean, BFSC .38. The week before we had complete 10 hrs on a race boat in FL.
Galvaston: no engine failures, Posey WON! Rich McKinley barrel rolled during the race and Bobby Witt tip over after the race. Both engines were dryed out and restarted.
Provo: 3 of 4 broke, but Posey WON! broke crankshaft, Sanders, failed bearing, Woods, broke crank bolt Jimbo.
Lake Carol; no engine failures Rotaries 1-2-3-4
Windemere: 2 of 3 broke, but Downard WON! broke crank bolt, Sanders and I don't remember
So. Africa; no engine failures, Sanders WON!
Paris; Posey hit a turn boey and took the side off the boat, Woods led the race till the last 15 min- rotor bearing failure due to all carb bolts loose.
St Louis; no engine failures, Homer Green gave the race to Merc.
Pewaukee; no engine failures
I hope I didn't forget one.
Also remember the Merc V-6's didn't finish their first 2 outings even though 2-cycles and 2-cycle racing had been around for 70 years.
Considering the extremely little testing OMC did between races, I was learning with every outing, making chages and racing them again. I enjoyed (an still miss) the race program. It taught me a lot as a young Engineer and am extremely proud of the accoplishment we had. I still believe OMC made a mistake not to continue with the rotary for production applications. But that was time gone by and nothing is going to change that. A 150hp twin or a 300hp sidewinder 4 in an I/O would have been a hell of a package and wouldn't have hurt OMC's I/O business or jeporised the 2-cycle market for outboards.
:)

Ok John, lets look at these figures one by one and do a wee bit of simple analyzation here
Parker 2 for 2 failed rotor bearings, by my reckoning 100% failure.
Galvaston Posey won But 2 dunkins = 66 % failure
Lake Carol Rotaries came home 1 2 3 4 ---being a bit of a cynic the question begs, was this a 3 lap sprint race, closed to Mercury owners ????? sure as god made little green 'uns wasn't a 3 hour half marathon. Or was it just sheer joy the damn things had finished at all.
Provo, 3 of the 4 broke. Posey won, but the other 3 broke. I make that 75% failure.
Windermere, Downard won. but the other 2 broke, is that another 66% failure.?
South Africa, no engine failure, Sanders won, was he the only rotary, ? if another had finished, i'm sure you would have told us, South Africa was always an OMC stronghold, the one exception was usually Peter Lindenberg who was S/A Champion for 10 years on the trot driving ,guess what, a little old Merc. Was he on vacation that day. Success rate questionable. ???
Paris-----Posey hits a bouy and the nuts fell off Woodsies motor--------2 out of 2 sounds like 100% failure to me.
St. Louis, no engine failure but no win, guess that must have been political, wasn't there and don't know about it.
Pewaukee---------not well known in europe except for the fact the rotary didn't break there. Is that the sum total of the rotories claim to fame.?????
The Merc V6 may not have finished their first 2 outings but they sure as hell won the next few thousand races and are still doing it, WHERE IS THE DAMN ROTARY THESE DAYS?
All in all , to me, the rotories never lived up to what they promised, and it was a piss poor percentage of success. Valiant effort but doomed to failure. Sorry John. !!!!!!!

[Rotary John]

Jackie: Lets see; won 6 of 8 races entered, I don't think thats to bad. The rotaries were forced out of racing (similar to the turbines in Indy cars) by the APBA & UIM because they were kicking a**. Were you part of that back then? I was at St. Louis. Barry Woods won 3 of the 4 heats and finished third in the 4th even after barrel rolling his boat, being thrown out in the water, swimming back to his boat and continuing. Mollinari ran over Posey in the first heat taking off the side of Posey's boat, protest denied. When Mollinari tried the same thing to Woods being a lap back, Woods didn't yeild and ran over Mollinari; protest upheld and Woods disquailified for the heat. So OMC raced the V-6 and continued to win. When Merc pissed Charlie Strang off, he brought out the V-8, no more Merc's. All of the top Merc drivers went to OMC. Jackie, you and I will never agree on the rotaries, but you have to admitt they sure created alot of intrest in boat racing at the time.

[jackie wilson]

Jackie: Lets see; won 6 of 8 races entered, I don't think thats to bad. The rotaries were forced out of racing (similar to the turbines in Indy cars) by the APBA & UIM because they were kicking a**. Were you part of that back then? I was at St. Louis. Barry Woods won 3 of the 4 heats and finished third in the 4th even after barrel rolling his boat, being thrown out in the water, swimming back to his boat and continuing. Mollinari ran over Posey in the first heat taking off the side of Posey's boat, protest denied. When Mollinari tried the same thing to Woods being a lap back, Woods didn't yeild and ran over Mollinari; protest upheld and Woods disquailified for the heat. So OMC raced the V-6 and continued to win. When Merc pissed Charlie Strang off, he brought out the V-8, no more Merc's. All of the top Merc drivers went to OMC. Jackie, you and I will never agree on the rotaries, but you have to admitt they sure created alot of intrest in boat racing at the time.
ER< Have i got this right--------the rotary only ever entered 8 races and won 6. Somehow this does not ring quite true, even i raced against them more than 8 times and i was in Europe. As for OMC dropping the Damn thing and reverting to V6 and continuing to win----not correct------occasionally there would be an odd OMC victory but it was a very rare occurrence. Was that the reason OMC brought out the V8 ? 'cos Charlie Strang was Pissed at Mercury, ????? and QUOTE NO MORE MERCS---- ER 'scuse me , but what are those black things running today without any sign of a V8 outside a museum. Not ALL the top Mercury drivers went to OMC----in fact so few went OMC had to call on junior racers to make up the field and that period was very short indeed.
No John, you and i can never agree on the rotary theme, it was an experiment and nothing more-----there was no way to measure the capacity, and in the end if you stacked 10 of the damn things on top of each other or just 2 they would not fit into any class anywhere in the world.
It was an expensive way to create a bit of interest, Been there and done that with the Cosworth, created a bit of interest, at that time in Boat Racing History

[Rotary John]

Jackie: your losing it. The rotaries only ran twice in Europe; Windemere in '74 and Paris in '75. Perhaps you'r remembering how many time you were passed by the rotaries and counted them as different races. Junior drivers; Mollinari, van der Vaden, Herring, Garbrecht, Spaalding ????????

[jackie wilson]

Jackie: your losing it. The rotaries only ran twice in Europe; Windemere in '74 and Paris in '75. Perhaps you'r remembering how many time you were passed by the rotaries and counted them as different races. Junior drivers; Mollinari, van der Vaden, Herring, Garbrecht, Spaalding ????????
At my age i'm entitled to lose it, refuse to believe you took the rotories to only the Windermere 3 hours, when you could have raced 3 separate marathons in 3 weeks ie. Paris 6 hours First w/e in October, second w/e, Berlin, and finally the 3 hrs of Windamere. Sounds like you were scared the damn things would break and would not last for a whole 6 hours. {something they never once did} . Did they only ever race 6 times-------------for a shed load of investment , it surely was a lousy return on the money.
Would still like you to tell the WHOLE story of when they came 1-2-3-4. My gut feeling is it was a 4 horse race.
Just as a little aside, Garbrecht flipped his Molinari in 1968 and never sat in a tunnel boat again, ---------to the best of my knowledge.

Rick Frost---------Roger Jenkins ----------Bill Marshall------- had never raced more than 850 cc, but were lead like lambs to --------

[Rotary John]

Jackie: After Provo, APBA and UIM got together and ban the rotary. No reason, as they ran OZ which didn't have any displacement limit, just no rotaries. Windemere '74 went against UIM because of the additional spectators that turned out when the rotaries came. We were scheduled to go back to Windemere in '75, but Scottie was killed in Paris and the rest of the trip was cancelled. The Lake Carrol race was put on by a developer trying to sell lake lots. It wasn't a big race, but Merc was there. This was before the Merc V-6, so it wasn't really a contest. If I recall it was a 3 hr race, but I won't swear to that. Sanders & Posey drove for Johnson and Woods and Jimbo drove for Evinrude. Woods won. I thought I have seen pictures of Garbrecht driving a V-8 on this site or BRF. Your right, OMC spent a whole lot of money on the program. Its a shame the politics ended the program so quickly as we would have continued to race them if they had been allowed. The V-8 program was a direct result of banning the rotaries, which was another ton of money. Boat racing in the States is all but dead, as there isn't much spectator intrest, thus no sponsers. It's the inovations that spark the spectator intrest and that doesn't exist here anymore. NASCAR is popular because Chevy, Ford and Dodge duke it out and have faithful followers. What has boat racing have to offer. A bunch of Mercs running around and much of the time you can't even see them. Hope to see you at OFF, as we both qualify.

[jackie wilson]

John; I too hate the politics of boat racing and have always thought along the lines of "you run wot you brung". Keep all the classes of limited size but have an open ended experimental or "Z" class at all race sites [provided it's safe]. Without competition ,there is no racing, no interest, no adrenaline. When the factories went head to head it was great for most of us. Why the hell they couldn't just compete and enjoy i don't know. They sure as hell sold a lot of motors as a direct result of competition. The result of the Rouen 24 hrs still to this day means a lot to the company that wins it. The Japs have put shed loads of effort into it--THEY recognise what sells units. Hope the little buggers don't start making "COWA COWLA".

[jackie wilson]

Did you not realise that neither the UIM or APBA have the power to Ban a recognised class-------- OZ is an unlimited class for outboards, and the designation of an outboard--Quote; It shall be removable from the transom , complete with it's drive--unquote, which we all know the rotary fitted into this category. They could have banned it through the back door under some obscure "safety" rule. There are no homologation rules for the class OZ. But we all know the wondrous ways of both governing bodies-----BENT AS A $2 DOLLAR BILL OR AN ELEVEN SIDED THREEPENNY BIT as we say over here. Both Leek and Charlie Strang know the rules, there is no legislation on the motor itself, 2 stroke, four stroke, 6 stroke or turbine---------you run what you brung. 40 years on ,this is of no help. J

[Rotary John]

Jackie: We knew the rules for OZ. The engine also had to be designed as an outboard. This was to prevent some one from standing a Chevy V-8 on end and stick it on a lower unit. Fact is UIM and APBA wouldn't allow them to run, rules or not. In fact Paris '75 they were forced to run exibition and couldn't have officially won the race. The only reason they let them run at all was Leek and Strang threatened to pull all OMC's if they didn't let them run. I kinda like your idea, run what you brung. Kinda like what Parker used to be. Have the varrious classes and let them go. The OZ class was supposed to foster inovation in outboards. APBA did the same thing to Merc when Haulinstein put 2 V-6 powerheads on a single lower unit to compete with the OMC V-8, the Wizzard. It was ban also. Now you can only have 1 crankshaft. Politics, the scorge of many things.

[jackie wilson]

I ran "THE COSWORTH" as an OZ with full UIM paperwork. The UIM scrutineer was Mike Bellamy and he gave it a clean sheet !!!!

[Rotary John]

Jackie: As an outboard? What year did you run? Send me a picture.
John

[jackie wilson]

Of course as an outboard--------1978----- Was beating all the factory drivers at Bristol, but to my shame i spun out on the bottom turn and let 4 of 'em through. We cobbled the stern drive and motor into a coffin and slid the whole thing into the hull, thus conforming to the designation of an outboard, ie: -----it shall be removable -----complete with it's drive, Believe Willabee has posted a picture of the boat on his "Hot Singles " thread.
My 2 mechanics could have the complete unit out of the boat in under 2 minutes-----but it still took 25 minutes to get the gear case changed at Parker.

[seeroy]

Oh No!!! You two are letting your defenses down. One of my greatest pleasures on the forums is watching Jackie duke it out with his "warped sense of humor" (which I understand and appreciate). If you two start holding hand and singing Kumbaya, the fun goes away. I'm going to bring boxing gloves to OFF for you. - Seeroy

[jackie wilson]

Lookee here Stavros, i was just trying to show you i have a nice side too----------and i was born pretty---but the years took their toll and somewhere along the way i found the odd curmudgeon to keep me company. No doubt John will get back on his Rotary steed and the snot and gore will start to flow=======I bet Steve is one of those guys who goes to ball game to watch the fight.

[Rotary John]

Steve: read your private mail and send me a reply
Jonh

[Rotary John]

Since Jackie corrected me, we don't have arguments just enlightened technical discussions. However, these post have brought out alot of info about the rotaries that otherwise would have been lost and forgot. I can only guess Jackie got beat by the rotaries 35 yrs ago and is still pissed.

[MN4V]

I was at the Lake Carrol race and remember specifically being told to not take any photos of the Rotary. Wish I had though. I really don't remember if it was a marathon or not. That was a loooong time ago.
Mark N

[jackie wilson]

Not even a rotory on a good day was enough to beat me. It would appear that i never raced against the damn things in anger, otherwise OMC would have pulled the plug long before they did. In '73 and '74 i had bought a garage and was more involved in selling motors than racing them, but in '75 brought out the 2 litre Cosworth, just to mix it with the big boys-------Lead the first 2 hours in Paris with Spalding and Percival Till i threw a blade and the crane driver hoiked the rig into his crane arm putting a hole in the side------------Still think both Mercury and OMC paid the bastard to do that.
Don't worry about the rotories ever being forgot John----------- It's a bit like "TITANIC" people never forget disasters. Here we go again !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rotary John]

I was at the Lake Carrol race and remember specifically being told to not take any photos of the Rotary. Wish I had though. I really don't remember if it was a marathon or not. That was a loooong time ago.
Mark N

Mark:
Were you there when Johnnie Sanders help shoot a comerical for some potato chip comany. He drove the race boat for the shoot. I remember he never got it out of a porpoise.I don't remember much about the chips, but the model was a knock out!
John

[jackie wilson]

That what you waned Stavros ?????

[Rotary John]

Jackie: Before you said '78. Now its '75. Did you run that thing for 3 yrs? Did you ever win a race with it? Or did those SOB's at Merc and OMC keep paying the crane operators?

[jackie wilson]

Mark:
Were you there when Johnnie Sanders help shoot a comerical for some potato chip comany. He drove the race boat for the shoot. I remember he never got it out of a porpoise.I don't remember much about the chips, but the model was a knock out!
John
Told it was for HULA HOOPS, they needed the porpoise and then the art department got to work for the final product

[jackie wilson]

Jackie: Before you said '78. Now its '75. Did you run that thing for 3 yrs? Did you ever win a race with it? Or did those SOB's at Merc and OMC keep paying the crane operators?

In '78 we created the "COSWORTH" V8 powered it ran for 1 year. It won most of the races it entered. I finished every race i started and never had a failure of any description. Bet you wish you could say that about the damn rotaries.
We carried a spare motor but it never came out of the packing case. Unlike the rotaries you had 6 engines and used them up , i had 2 ,but only used one.
Finished the Parker race, although a lowly sixth overall--------bet you wish you could say one of the damn things finished, but it never did and nor was it ever going to.
If you read the small print John----it says i built a 2 litre 4 pot cosworth with 300 hp in 1975.
The Duchess of York trophy is one of the major British races and is 100 miler. Both OMC and Merc sent over the big guns , ie; Percival and Spalding, Molinari and Bullen -------- This was at Chasewater, Lapped all of them and won easily. Put a hole in the bottom in Amsterdam and was in first place for the first 3 hours , but repairs took too long. Again, against both factories. Ran Paris with my son in 78 , but he had no time in the Cosworth and didn't have a super licence so we ran his ON class boat. and won.
Those SOB's at OMC and MERCURY tried every trick in the book to get it banned ,but they never succeeded.

[Mark Poole ModVP]

Garbrect and crew must have been playing both sides of the fence because at some point he tried the same configuration with a Cosworth over here in the states. Theirs kept dying from engine lubrication or the drive would fail. I'll have to dig through my books but I know I have read that story. I want to say they won a race with it and the APBA banned it within hours after the race was over.

[jackie wilson]

Introduced GG to Kieth Duckworth in 1977 . Subsequent meetings ensued and "COSWORTH" started making various products ie; pistons, cranks and blocks for Mercury.
Think it was Petty who funded the offshore effort, wasn't particularly successful as i recall---------- now you can see why we made the forage to parker in 78, to test APBA reaction to the Ford/Cosworth engine.
The drive coupling on the Mercruiser unit i ran was changed to a "Duckworth" spec. and was no more than a half inch thick, but it took out all the torque with it's flexibility. I understood the engineers at Mercury ran the standard drive units and had a few mishaps.
Are you referring to the Race in the Miami Marine Stadium, Mercury entered it as an ET with Bentz as the jockey--------he was told to stay just behind until the last lap and then take the win--------- He shot off into the lead and by the 3rd lap had passed every single ET.
One of the entries was MR.RICKEY'S Big Dee with girl friend at the helm. I cannot begin to tell you the antics of that little fellow--he went totally ape sh-t and screamed and shouted he would make sure that goddam boat never raced in the U.S. ever again. If it took all his money to get it banned for life-----so be it. Anyway i'm sure you get the picture. It was like sending a knife to a gun fight,-------Bentz lapped the field again and again, got a right royal bollocking from GG and the rest of the crew and i imagine that,s why the engine was banned. Incidentally the motor was a Ford V8 32 valve DVA, basically an American engine put right by an Englishman-------Kieth Duckworth.

[Rotary John]

In '78 we created the "COSWORTH" V8 powered it ran for 1 year. It won most of the races it entered. I finished every race i started and never had a failure of any description. Bet you wish you could say that about the damn rotaries.
We carried a spare motor but it never came out of the packing case. Unlike the rotaries you had 6 engines and used them up , i had 2 ,but only used one.
Finished the Parker race, although a lowly sixth overall--------bet you wish you could say one of the damn things finished, but it never did and nor was it ever going to.
If you read the small print John----it says i built a 2 litre 4 pot cosworth with 300 hp in 1975.
The Duchess of York trophy is one of the major British races and is 100 miler. Both OMC and Merc sent over the big guns , ie; Percival and Spalding, Molinari and Bullen -------- This was at Chasewater, Lapped all of them and won easily. Put a hole in the bottom in Amsterdam and was in first place for the first 3 hours , but repairs took too long. Again, against both factories. Ran Paris with my son in 78 , but he had no time in the Cosworth and didn't have a super licence so we ran his ON class boat. and won.
Those SOB's at OMC and MERCURY tried every trick in the book to get it banned ,but they never succeeded.
Jackie: With 75 yrs of engine development on 4-cycle automotive engines I would hope it would run, even if you had to bend the rules to call it an "outboard"???? I guess being a Merc guy when UIM and APBA were controled by Merc didn't hurt either. It was my understanding OZ required an engine "designed as an outbord powerplant" Not an I/O that could be removed in 2 min. I guess the real challange of the rotary was it was designed from scratch as a consumer outboard, modified to push the limits of its mechanical ability, raced, broken, redsigned and raced again. while all the time kicking a**. Seeing we designed, tested and raced this engine in 5 months, I don't think the results were too shabby. My only wish would have been to let the engine run at all the major venues around the world instead of being serrounded by ploitics.

[jackie wilson]

Jackie: With 75 yrs of engine development on 4-cycle automotive engines I would hope it would run, even if you had to bend the rules to call it an "outboard"???? I guess being a Merc guy when UIM and APBA were controled by Merc didn't hurt either. It was my understanding OZ required an engine "designed as an outbord powerplant" Not an I/O that could be removed in 2 min. I guess the real challange of the rotary was it was designed from scratch as a consumer outboard, modified to push the limits of its mechanical ability, raced, broken, redsigned and raced again. while all the time kicking a**. Seeing we designed, tested and raced this engine in 5 months, I don't think the results were too shabby. My only wish would have been to let the engine run at all the major venues around the world instead of being serrounded by ploitics.

Errrr, You don't read too well do you John, Mercury and i had parted company and i was well pissed at them. i didn't make the outboard rules, i just built a unit within it's parameters. When the UIM could not find a single thing to stop it running, they petulantly said "it is not within the spirit of the rules" but it is legal. So you see John, i did not BEND the rules . The thing that really got up my snotter is you think the UIM was run by Mercury at that time-WRONG-WRONG-WRONG it was ruled by whoever paid them the most, like when OMC brought out the V8 and suddenly everybody within a 100 miles of a V8 got rich.
Like 75 years before OMC ever heard of a rotary and bought a licence to try and make a profitable product and failing miserably and leaving engineers weeping in their beer 35 years later, a certain Dr.Wankel had come up with this marvelous design which would revolutionise the automotive industry and make everyone a pot of gold. Bit like Finians rainbow i suppose--------------Slight problem------it was flawed way back then and it's still flawed today and nobody got rich.
So tell me just what bit of this legendary motor was as YOU said--designed from scratch as a consumer outboard [ did you sell all 6 of them] -modified to push the limits of it's mechanical ability---[ you reached that on numerous occasions] raced ,broken, redesigned and raced again. The only bit you designed from scratch seems to be the leg and gear case. Not a lot to thump the drum for would you say???
It's not worth losing sleep over John. I'll say no more if you don't come out with any more daft statements like kicking asse.

[Rotary John]

Jackie: The rotary race engine was water cooled externally and charged cooled internally. No body in the world had ever done that before. OMC was the first and started in 1971. A single 50hp and twin 115hp version were designed for consumer outboard use. The race engine used the twin as the starting point, stacked 2 of them on top of each other and boosted the hp to approx 300hp (crankshaft). We started the race engine design in Oct of '72 and raced it at Parker in March '73. That was the bases for my comparision to the Cosworth who had been developing Indy car and F1 engines for Ford. I'll still buy you a drink at OFF. John

[jackie wilson]

Accepted i'll take that drink anytime---------good to discuss things with you john, j.

[willabee]

Just as a little aside, Garbrecht flipped his Molinari in 1968 and never sat in a tunnel boat again, ---------to the best of my knowledge....

Just a FYI.....Gary got back in the 21" Molinari, Up, Up and Away, at Parker in 1970. It looked like Billy Don Pruett wasn't going to make the event, so Gary said that if that happened, he and I would drive it in the race. He did take it out for a couple of test laps. Mr. Kiekhaefer had instructed Gary to stay out of race boats, I imagine he would have been in trouble if Pruett hadn't finally shown up. He also made the maiden voyages in the 482 inch 22' Jones that Bill Cooper ran at Elsinore in 69. I got to drive those two boats as well, they were pure pleasure running over some chop.

[Rotary John]

Just a FYI.....Gary got back in the 21" Molinari, Up, Up and Away, at Parker in 1970. It looked like Billy Don Pruett wasn't going to make the event, so Gary said that if that happened, he and I would drive it in the race. He did take it out for a couple of test laps. Mr. Kiekhaefer had instructed Gary to stay out of race boats, I imagine he would have been in trouble if Pruett hadn't finally shown up. He also made the maiden voyages in the 482 inch 22' Jones that Bill Cooper ran at Elsinore in 69. I got to drive those two boats as well, they were pure pleasure running over some chop.

Jackie says you have pictures of his Cosworh boat. where do I find them? Might even have a picture of Jackie so I know who he is at OFF.

[willabee]

Here's what I have.....a word of caution, Jackie never was young or good looking, and time sure hasn't made him any prettier. :reddevil:

Jackie with his hardware, in driver training (my favorite :D) and in a couple of the "outboards" he ran. I'll let him explain the action.

[jackie wilson]

Just a FYI.....Gary got back in the 21" Molinari, Up, Up and Away, at Parker in 1970. It looked like Billy Don Pruett wasn't going to make the event, so Gary said that if that happened, he and I would drive it in the race. He did take it out for a couple of test laps. Mr. Kiekhaefer had instructed Gary to stay out of race boats, I imagine he would have been in trouble if Pruett hadn't finally shown up. He also made the maiden voyages in the 482 inch 22' Jones that Bill Cooper ran at Elsinore in 69. I got to drive those two boats as well, they were pure pleasure running over some chop.
OK WILLIAM, so i got it just a tad wrong---GG might have sat in a tunnel [he was a great poser, and you can see from his picture he was uglier than a pailful of worms on a mud fence] but he never actually took part in a race as a driver after 1968. I know you tested a few rigs when nobody was looking, but you were supposed to be white collar staff and actually putting one through it's paces was frowned upon.

[jackie wilson]

Here's what I have.....a word of caution, Jackie never was young or good looking, and time sure hasn't made him any prettier. :reddevil:

Jackie with his hardware, in driver training (my favorite :D) and in a couple of the "outboards" he ran. I'll let him explain the action.

You wuz always envious of my good looks and natural charms, regal like pose, and impeccable taste Willa------go on admit it---you miss me when i'm not there.
to the pictures,
No. 1

My living room floor after cleaning some of the ill gotten gains-----look at that head of hair---where the hell did that go ????????
No. 2 1960 with John Merryfield behind------Merryfield was a successful Mercury dealer and a brilliant engineer.
No. 3 Oulton broad-the home of Percival and Spalding--i used to love going up there on a thursday evening and pissing on their parade, looks like my old mate Neil [nelly] Gregg. in the no. 5.
No. 4 Bristol, battling with Percy. 1978 with the 3 litre Cosworth.
No. 5 Bristol again 1975 with the 2 litre Cosworth [ see Willa's advertising in the background]

[Rotary John]

Jackie:
The ad says you are running a Hodges boat. Do you have a contact for him? Jim Nerstrom is trying to get up with him.

[willabee]

OK WILLIAM, so i got it just a tad wrong--- I know you tested a few rigs when nobody was looking, but you were supposed to be white collar staff and actually putting one through it's paces was frowned upon.

.....you have been getting things just a tad wrong forever!

This whole driving race boats thing was kind of a bittersweet deal. Before we hired the likes of Stickle, Hering & Merten, I had been running the Switzer Shooting Stars, the Checkmates and other boats like that. Even ran one of the early rocker bottom Molinari's while Gary was out with back problems. Gary was the guy that was going to do the tests in the tunnels until he came back from a meeting in Fondy and told me that I was going to do the tunnel testing. He said that Mr. Kiekhaefer had told him that he couldn't afford to risk Gary getting hurt. Added something about if Gary was hurt, he'd have to do his job and he didn't have time for that.

At first I was excited to hear that I was going to get to drive all that cool stuff. Then, I realized what they had really just said to me.....Bill, you go ahead and run the tests. If you get hurt we can always throw some other dummy in the seat and we'll never miss a beat (or you)! That told me exactly where I stood on the Mercury food chain.....totally expendable! :o

Found another shot of the Cosworth (with wing).....

[jackie wilson]

.....you have been getting things just a tad wrong forever!

This whole driving race boats thing was kind of a bittersweet deal. Before we hired the likes of Stickle, Hering & Merten, I had been running the Switzer Shooting Stars, the Checkmates and other boats like that. Even ran one of the early rocker bottom Molinari's while Gary was out with back problems. Gary was the guy that was going to do the tests in the tunnels until he came back from a meeting in Fondy and told me that I was going to do the tunnel testing. He said that Mr. Kiekhaefer had told him that he couldn't afford to risk Gary getting hurt. Added something about if Gary was hurt, he'd have to do his job and he didn't have time for that.

At first I was excited to hear that I was going to get to drive all that cool stuff. Then, I realized what they had really just said to me.....Bill, you go ahead and run the tests. If you get hurt we can always throw some other dummy in the seat and we'll never miss a beat (or you)! That told me exactly where I stood on the Mercury food chain.....totally expendable! :o

Found another shot of the Cosworth (with wing).....

there you go again--I always thought you were GG's ramrod--i never saw you in a raceboat.!!!!!!

[willabee]

----i never saw you in a raceboat.!!!!!!

That makes us even! :reddevil:

[Mark Poole ModVP]

Yes, it was the race in Miami that I was talking about. They mentioned Bentz "destroying" the field with that boat. Earl always did like to get out front and keep his foot down! Guess he wanted to get some practice driving such a fast boat.

[jackie wilson]

That makes us even! :reddevil:

Come -Come William, did you yourself not get the "BLOODY HOORAY" decals done for MY Molinari 17' at Havasu, y'know the one that i lent to Pruett for the Paris race. You have a long way to go before you get "EVEN" with me boyo. There is no substitute for an old, cranky, devious, curmudgeonlike person, you have to work very hard at it

[jackie wilson]

Yes, it was the race in Miami that I was talking about. They mentioned Bentz "destroying" the field with that boat. Earl always did like to get out front and keep his foot down! Guess he wanted to get some practice driving such a fast boat.

Yes Mark-The old KT boats were no match for the boat Bentz was running--on a good day with a tail wind and running downhill, a good KT would run 85/90 max------bentz was good for 125, and was probably the best driver out there by a country mile. The KT class was also in it's death throes around that time.

[jackie wilson]

Jackie:
The ad says you are running a Hodges boat. Do you have a contact for him? Jim Nerstrom is trying to get up with him.
John,---------Chris moved back to Australia, to breed quarter horses.

[SCT]

I found these rotary pixs in the SF archives.

[jackie wilson]

I found these rotary pixs in the SF archives.

Best place for 'em-----leave 'em there with a note-----------" Do not touch."

[Rotary John]

I found these rotary pixs in the SF archives.
I believe these are pictures when OMC took the rotary to visit Dr. Wankel at Lake Como after the Windermere WIN in '74. Left is barry Woods, right is Charlie Strang.

[jackie wilson]

Boy oh boy Johno talk about going to extremes. You took the whole outfit to it's inventor when it finally won a race, Them wuz desperate times my friend.
Does that mean that if ever a 'Rude wins again there going to raise the "old man".
Before all ye Jonrude lovers start throwing the excreta my way i was ----------JUST KIDDING. I love all motors 'cept a rotary.

[Old fiberglass]

Boy oh boy Johno talk about going to extremes. You took the whole outfit to it's inventor when it finally won a race, Them wuz desperate times my friend.
Does that mean that if ever a 'Rude wins again there going to raise the "old man".
Before all ye Jonrude lovers start throwing the excreta my way i was ----------JUST KIDDING. I love all motors 'cept a rotary.

You sure are hard on the rotary guys. It appears like they accomplished a lot in a short time period.

[Rotary John]

Boy oh boy Johno talk about going to extremes. You took the whole outfit to it's inventor when it finally won a race, Them wuz desperate times my friend.
Does that mean that if ever a 'Rude wins again there going to raise the "old man".
Before all ye Jonrude lovers start throwing the excreta my way i was ----------JUST KIDDING. I love all motors 'cept a rotary.

Jackie:
Actually , Windemere was the 4th WIN in 5 outings. Did you ever do that well?

[WharfRat]

LMAO, ya'll sound like ya'll are married

[jackie wilson]

You sure are hard on the rotary guys. It appears like they accomplished a lot in a short time period.

Fiber -------100 years is a long time to be stuck at square one.

[jackie wilson]

Jackie:
Actually , Windemere was the 4th WIN in 5 outings. Did you ever do that well?

"ACTUALLY'-------- 1966 won 9 out of the 10 races-----Don't think the damn thing EVER did THAT well---------- CIE- LA VIE. [THAT'S LIFE]

[Rotary John]

"ACTUALLY'-------- 1966 won 9 out of the 10 races-----Don't think the damn thing EVER did THAT well---------- CIE- LA VIE. [THAT'S LIFE]
Jackie: If you were winning races in 1966, you must be older than dirt! I'll have to learn to respect my elders.

[Rotary John]

Jackie: Mazda just announced they are going to run a hydrogen fueled rotary at LaManns. Better make plans to go see a rotary kick butt again.

[T2x]

Jackie: Mazda just announced they are going to run a hydrogen fueled rotary at LaManns. Better make plans to go see a rotary kick butt again.

LaManns might be interesting...but...I'd rather see it run at Le Mans.

[WharfRat]

just had to, didn't ya??? :D

[powerabout]

LaManns might be interesting...but...I'd rather see it run at Le Mans.
thats just saying Le Mans with an Italian accent

[WharfRat]

or a slurring of the tongue LOL

[mark benson]

My research into how many OMC Rotary Outboards there are left on Earth has led me to the conclusion that there are four, ( 2 Evinrude - 2 Johnson ) just as Mark75H, Rotary John & other people said all along. The reason there are not more Rotarys in collectors hands is - except for those four Rotary Engines still left in existace, the other ones I speculated on still being around, were melted down or destroyed (landfill) over the years because of the death of OMC!

[Mark Poole ModVP]

I know someone who was supposed to get one of them. It was stranded on the loading dock when OMC shut the doors, two days before it was going to ship. Wonder where it ended up?

[mark benson]

I heard that one older gentleman had 2 Rotary Outboards. I wonder if he has 2 Evinrudes, 2 Johnsons, or one of each? I wonder how much an OMC Rotary would be worth on the open market? Any ideas?

[Mark Poole ModVP]

Well, how much did that "dummy" Johnson rotary with no powerhead end up selling for? Even in this down market I would think one (genuine one) would get top dollar based on how rare it is. It is one of those "pieces" that is worth whatever someone is willing to pay.

[jackie wilson]

I heard that one older gentleman had 2 Rotary Outboards. I wonder if he has 2 Evinrudes, 2 Johnsons, or one of each? I wonder how much an OMC Rotary would be worth on the open market? Any ideas?

can't be worth much considering how much the initial cost was------2 years work----and 50 before that--suppose there is some old gentleman out there who suffers from mad fits of depression ,and is so far round the twist, and has a a couple a hundred dollars floating who might chance his arm. What's the final score???? could be 4 and a dummy------------BIG DEAL--BIG DEAL.GREAT EFFORT// but somewhat misguided.

[jackie wilson]

Jackie: Mazda just announced they are going to run a hydrogen fueled rotary at LaManns. Better make plans to go see a rotary kick butt again.

OK John, so you got all excited again, will this be before or after Mazda settle the 16,000 lawsuits against "THE DAMN THING" in the U.S. alone. We have a MANNS BREWERY in London, or did you mean Le Mans France, where all the illegal experimental cars get a chance to break down. They are pretty understanding over here and it could run in the Zeppelin class. Yeah your right -----they could kick zeppelin butt, but not much else. Let's see a few more heartbreaks.

[jackie wilson]

My research into how many OMC Rotary Outboards there are left on Earth has led me to the conclusion that there are four, ( 2 Evinrude - 2 Johnson ) just as Mark75H, Rotary John & other people said all along. The reason there are not more Rotarys in collectors hands is - except for those four Rotary Engines still left in existace, the other ones I speculated on still being around, were melted down or destroyed (landfill) over the years because of the death of OMC!

Yeah Mark, but high quality landfill----give a little credit.

[jackie wilson]

Jackie: If you were winning races in 1966, you must be older than dirt! I'll have to learn to respect my elders.

Was winning races in the '50/s John, pushing the '80 barrier now, and i'm still such a nice boy as my sainted mother used to say.
If you have to LEARN, to respect your elders,---------i rest my case.!!!!!!!

[Rotary John]

Jackie: Is that pushing 80 your age or how fast you went with you fake OZ outboard?

[Rotary John]

I heard that one older gentleman had 2 Rotary Outboards. I wonder if he has 2 Evinrudes, 2 Johnsons, or one of each? I wonder how much an OMC Rotary would be worth on the open market? Any ideas?
He has one of each. The e-bay unit sold for $5500. I know where it is. I know where 2 others are and am trying to locate what I believe is the 5th unit.

[mark benson]

He has one of each. The e-bay unit sold for $5500. I know where it is. I know where 2 others are and am trying to locate what I believe is the 5th unit. Now there you you go again, John. Just when we agreed that there are 4 (count 'em) Rotarys (2 Evinrudes & 2 Johnsons) plus the non-functional e-bay unit, you go & say you are trying to locate what you believe to be the 5th unit! Will this run around ever end?

[Rotary John]

Now there you you go again, John. Just when we agreed that there are 4 (count 'em) Rotarys (2 Evinrudes & 2 Johnsons) plus the non-functional e-bay unit, you go & say you are trying to locate what you believe to be the 5th unit! Will this run around ever end?
Mark: As I said before, 6 exhaust manifolds and 7 bucket/shrods. The e-bay unit didn't have an engine. The engine pictured at the beginning of this thread, is located in Waukegan in Marine Engineering. It is an old type engine, 2 pc crank, and the bucket doesn't have the access holes machined. I don't have any idea where it came from, but there were indeed 4 complete new, 4 pc crank, engines (2 each) dynoed and boxed up when I left OMC. I know the wearabouts of 3 of these engines and am trying to locate the 4th. I suspect the rest of the spare parts have long since been disposed of.

[T2x]

Dare I say it ?????

Who really cares how many were made...and what's the difference?

I am a total Switzer Wing freak.....but I really don't care if there were 53, 63 0r 275 of them made. It has no impact on my life.......

How many complete rotaries, spare parts, and mock ups OMC made of them is inconsequential....

Seeing one of them actually run, after all these years (Last one I saw was in Galveston)......... Now that's a different story.

T2x

[Old fiberglass]

Dare I say it ?????

Who really cares how many were made...and what's the difference?

I am a total Switzer Wing freak.....but I really don't care if there were 53, 63 0r 275 of them made. It has no impact on my life.......

How many complete rotaries, spare parts, and mock ups OMC made of them is inconsequential....

Seeing one of them actually run, after all these years (Last one I saw was in Galveston)......... Now that's a different story.

T2x

You are looking at it a little short sighted. If you are looking for one it certainly helps to know how many were made. Hence if 4 have been found and 6 made then obviously there is hope in possibly finding one. Same with the wings knowing how many were made, wrecked and so forth has helped in the hunt.

[jackie wilson]

Jackie: Is that pushing 80 your age or how fast you went with you fake OZ outboard?
John--------for the record only--i was born January 1932----- even a dingleberry can work that one out. You may have to take your shoes off, but i'm sure it's within the realms of possibility for you.
I have certified certificates from Windermere that took the OZ record at 123.63 mph in 1978. Was fast enough to beat OMC/s best effort comfortably . Ya know the class John---OZEE, the one the Damn Things would have run in if they lasted long enough.
Just as an aside, you claim it won 7 out of 8 races ------well it failed in Paris and it died in Parker------- i am not a mathematician but i think you just got your sums wrong or live in cuckoo land Johno.

[Rotary John]

John--------for the record only--i was born January 1932----- even a dingleberry can work that one out. You may have to take your shoes off, but i'm sure it's within the realms of possibility for you.
I have certified certificates from Windermere that took the OZ record at 123.63 mph in 1978. Was fast enough to beat OMC/s best effort comfortably . Ya know the class John---OZEE, the one the Damn Things would have run in if they lasted long enough.
Just as an aside, you claim it won 7 out of 8 races ------well it failed in Paris and it died in Parker------- i am not a mathematician but i think you just got your sums wrong or live in cuckoo land Johno.
Jackie
Post #74; 6 of 8, nothing wrong with my math even with my shoes on.

[powerabout]

T2
If you had the only Switzer left of that model I guess you'd be interested in the total number..maybe?
Cheers
Powerabout

[mark benson]

T2
If you had the only Switzer left of that model I guess you'd be interested in the total number..maybe?
Cheers
Powerabout
You are correct. The lower the number of existing boats & or engines of that particular model - the more they're worth to collectors! That's why the OMC Rotary would be one of the most valuable acquisitions to an outboard collector. There were only four ever made! You do the math.

[powerabout]

How about an efi F1 V8?
I hear there were several new ones in the factory when it closed and they have also disappeared.
I wouldnt mind a 727 loop charge v6 either...

[Rotary John]

How about an efi F1 V8?
I hear there were several new ones in the factory when it closed and they have also disappeared.
I wouldnt mind a 727 loop charge v6 either...

I have been told that now that Rotax has taken over Marine Engineering, they have decreed all old OMC prototypes are to be disposed of. I sure would like to be at the dumpster when that happens.

[Mark75H]

The lower the number of existing boats & or engines of that particular model - the more they're worth to collectors!Not always true, maybe not even generally true. The Merc Mark20H is an example that proves the most important factor is demand and not supply. A 20H generally goes for between $2,000 and $4,000 even though Merc made 4,000 of them. Earlier 2 cylinder Mercs have a hard time breaking $1,800 with numbers as few as 500. The Martin racers that made Merc come out with the original 20H and the Champion Hot Rods that competed with the 20H and made Merc come out with the "conversion kits" were produced in even smaller number and fetch even less. Even newer Merc racers that we know Merc only made a few hundred of or about 100 of don't go for more than a 20H and OMC racers produced in even smaller numbers get even less.

The key to an old race motor's value is how many people know about it and want it.

[T2x]

You are looking at it a little short sighted. If you are looking for one it certainly helps to know how many were made. Hence if 4 have been found and 6 made then obviously there is hope in possibly finding one. Same with the wings knowing how many were made, wrecked and so forth has helped in the hunt.

When I started the wing count....I never really cared how many were made (which at best is an esoteric, useless bit of data)....rather I wanted to know how many still exist.........I honestly can't say that either question was key in "discovering" my wing...or any others. I "found" mine by posting a picture on the web and asking if anybody had seen anything like it. Common sense will tell you that wandering around asking "how many of these were made?" is not going to point you to some long hidden away piece in a barn somewhere. Once we established that the wooden versions were long gone...the rest of the story has been mostly speculation, quotes from seemingly endless "research" phone calls (which apparently makes the insistent caller an "expert"), and "inside information" (urban legends?) about handling and set up (which is mostly useless since all racing hulls have individual "quirks").

Oh, and one other point....I agree with Jackie.....the rotaries, though unique and impressive, were a very short lived "flash in the pan". They bent the rules and were very hard to measure in terms of displacement (easy to "cheat"). So, while I might drive cross country for a wing...I wouldn't leave my arm chair for a rotary. Yet I would like to see one run again....... but (as with most collectables) I'll only briefly glance at a static display and yawn at a picture. (It has a lot to do with "been there, seen/done that").

[T2x]

You are correct. The lower the number of existing boats & or engines of that particular model - the more they're worth to collectors! That's why the OMC Rotary would be one of the most valuable acquisitions to an outboard collector. There were only four ever made! You do the math.

What math? They will cost a lot......but not in my dollars...and then they will disappear into a "collection in Ohio", so it's all irrelevant anyhow.

T2x

[SCT]

Question for you guys that actually saw the rotaries in a race......what did they sound like? Just curious-

[Da Bull]

I would love to hear one run myself. I agree with t2x on the display stuff. While it`s cool to some collectors to have something like this to brag about it don`t meen jack to me. Sort of like 60`s mussle cars, They were ment to be run.

db

[milkdud]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VteSX6KGzh4Hope is sounds like this.

Feel free to delete if not appropriate. The rotary has a nice sound.

[jackie wilson]

Question for you guys that actually saw the rotaries in a race......what did they sound like? Just curious-

Wonderful sound, more like a Yowl, the only thing about THE DAMN THING i liked.

[Rotary John]

When I started the wing count....I never really cared how many were made (which at best is an esoteric, useless bit of data)....rather I wanted to know how many still exist.........I honestly can't say that either question was key in "discovering" my wing...or any others. I "found" mine by posting a picture on the web and asking if anybody had seen anything like it. Common sense will tell you that wandering around asking "how many of these were made?" is not going to point you to some long hidden away piece in a barn somewhere. Once we established that the wooden versions were long gone...the rest of the story has been mostly speculation, quotes from seemingly endless "research" phone calls (which apparently makes the insistent caller an "expert"), and "inside information" (urban legends?) about handling and set up (which is mostly useless since all racing hulls have individual "quirks").

Oh, and one other point....I agree with Jackie.....the rotaries, though unique and impressive, were a very short lived "flash in the pan". They bent the rules and were very hard to measure in terms of displacement (easy to "cheat"). So, while I might drive cross country for a wing...I wouldn't leave my arm chair for a rotary. Yet I would like to see one run again....... but (as with most collectables) I'll only briefly glance at a static display and yawn at a picture. (It has a lot to do with "been there, seen/done that").
TX- please explain what rules they bent??? As far as displacement. they ran OZ-no displacement restriction, so how does dificult to measure play into it?

[Rotary John]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VteSX6KGzh4Hope is sounds like this.

Feel free to delete if not appropriate. The rotary has a nice sound.

If you like this, google "mazda furai" and hear it run in the video

[Mark75H]

TX- please explain what rules they bent??? As far as displacement. they ran OZ-no displacement restriction, so how does dificult to measure play into it?

I think the issue was that they did not want to run OZ and kept applying for ON based on the smaller displacement calculation. I think ON was the only class giving trophies and prize money. This let Merc say "Yeah, they won the show, but not the race ... and, hehe ... just how big is that thing really?"

[seeroy]

John - I went to Furai site per your recommendation. Incredible sound from rotary. Is that close to what the outboard sounded like? I for one have always loved "run what you brung" lack of class rules. Innovation is the real mother of invention and brings out the true developmental talent of racers. Class rules are great to create close, exciting competition, which is crowd pleasing. Certainly, when machines are very tightly controlled to create exact copies, the driver becomes the winning and only real variable. However, when turned loose to create whatever their imagination and innovation has to offer, technological advancement comes to the forefront. Does that give someone an advantage? Yes!!! But only for awhile!!! Eventually someone else comes up with something even better. Even when operating within Class rules, someone will always find that niche in the rule book that allows them to gain an advantage. When that happens, usually one of three things happens. Either the sanctioning body will tighten the rules to keep things close, or the sanctioning body will allow that particular area of innovation to expand thus moving that class up a notch in excitement. Unfortunately, it is the third thing that often happens, and that is that business politics enters the fray. I would guess that Offenhauser and/or Ford had something to do with the demise of the Andy Granatelli turbines from Indy.

As usual, I have strayed from the point I want to make. That is, over the years, some sanctioning bodies have bowed to business politics and/or a desire to please the crowds with close racing. The rules have become so tight that things are measured with a microscope. Individual innovation has been relegated to the “cheating” bin. There is a time and place for strict regulation. But there is also a time and place for “let it all hang out” innovation. The question is…..How do you create a mix of the two in order to move the excitement level forward?
<O:p</O:p
I’m not sure how this all relates to the OMC Rotary, except to say that it certainly did two things. It “hauled ass” and it created something for John and Jackie to talk about at OFF2010. As someone said about controversy over the terminology of “Old Farts Forever” last year…..”I wouldn’t miss this for anything!!!”

I have nio idea what I'm talking about :confused:, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it :p - Steve :reddevil:

[jackie wilson]

Bloody hell Stevo, that was some literary spoutation ------where did that come from--------whatever your on , i'll have a large one. !!!!!!
And --Je Concur----every damn word.

[seeroy]

Top O' The Mornin To You Jackie - Too much coffee I guess. I love the words you invent. "Spoutation" is one of the best yet, although it usually refers to YOUR stuff.

[Rotary John]

Good morning or evening to you Jackie. No, the rotary outboard didn't sound like either Mazda. We dumped all the cooling water into the exhaust, so it didn't have the firery flames and was much lower pitched. More of a growl as opposed to a scream. There was no mistaking it though. I agree with part of what you said above Seeroy, but innovation is what sparks interest. The spectators and excitment increased significantly where ever the rotaries ran. We got numerous requests to bring them to varrious races in the US. Part of the problem I see in boat racing today is lack of spectator intrest because they all look the same, and unless you know a particular driver, it all looks like about a bunch of Mercs on tunnel boats. NASCAR has Ford, Chevy and Dodge duking it out and the crowd can relate to the different brands. It appears to me the facories have created classes for their particular models at the exclusion of everything else. Anyway, I'm looking forward to OFF and get to meet this 78 yr old racer that won everything he entered and beat the pants off everybody. Love ya Jackie.

[jackie wilson]

Was the same with the V8/s They all look the same. You have to have competition.
Just so you know------i won about 25% of all the races in which i participated. Was above average-but was never one of the greats, and did on the odd occasion upset both factories.

[Mark Poole ModVP]

I like what is happening in Champ boat right now. I hope they don't change the rules when that Johnson powered boat wins a race. Competing brands are good for racing.

[Da Bull]

Mark, Get ready for dissapointment if the white mota wins. It`s Mercs nickle and they ain`t gonna stand for that. I wouldn`t be suprised if they change the rules on it if he even gets close.

db