13b rotary turbo motor on 2.5 efi leg

[Cobalti]

I'm currently building a 13b turbocharged motor to fit vertically on a 2.5 offshore leg. This is an idea that started as a conversation with a friend about what the ultimate outboard should be. The next step was to see if the motor could be stood up on its end, and a prominant figure in the rotary circle has worked out a way to run the oiling system to allow it to do so. At he moment I'm manufacturing pattern for the bellhousing. This will be a cast unit that can be duplicated any time.The weight of the whole thing I'm calculating to be about 180kg, to acheive this I'm using alluminium end plates imported from the states. The sump, which will hold about 10 liters of oil, I'm building inside the leg where the exaust used to flow. This keeps the center of gravity low. So too the drive plate on the bottom of the motor with the starter bolted facing down on the bellhousing. the motor fits sump facing aft, the turbo fits behind the sump the exaust flows straight down from the turbo to meet with the protruding section of the leg(where the old exaust used to go).Air entry is a scoop above the turbo. The old water pump will now pump cold water to the intercooler first, then the motor heat exchanger (fitted in the boat), then the oil cooler and out. The advantage of this system is that it works at idle, and I run coolant in the engine. The engine water moves via an electric water pump. The gear box, a sportmaster gets custom gears and drive shaft to cope with torque otwards of 450foot/pound. Revs will be 7000rpm, ratio of 1.5-1.62, prop 29-30 chopper. Hp depends on what boost we will decide to run.
What i would like to Know is, has anybody done anything like this anywhare? I have come to know of Mercury experimenting with 13b and of OMC's success with rotary onlimited racing in the 70's. But, is there any body that has some experience? I would appreciate any input or personal experience.

[delawarerick]

Wow that is one cool project. Please keep me abreast of progress and good luck. Rick

[sho305]

If you seach here for wankel and/or rotary you can find some pages on the OMC rotarys from the 60s. I think they were 4 rotors. They were fast but they dropped them for some reason. I think todays rotary is much better...seals and stuff are better. There is talk of doing that on here someplace but I could not find with a quick search...have read about the idea here though. If you can keep the weight down on all the accesory stuff like cooling, fuel, oil, etc,; it will be a very interesting project!:cool:

Also the one I saw out of a snowmobile was one rotor, and the guy told me it was a 2 stroke oil mix. Not sure of the difference there to 4 stroke or if he was mistaken.

[Cobalti]

Although the Wankel motor is a 4 stroke, oil is injected as a 2 stroke to lubricate the seals. In the car (Mazda Rx series) sump oil is injected automatically. I believe that for reliability sake, as with any outboard, the pump should be tossed over the right shoulder and appropriate oil shoud be mixed with the fuel, and that is how I intend on running my engine. Thanks guys! I welcome any input, as it is a unique project.:D

[jmc]

Here is another project but its a 400 horse turbine.

[sho305]

I had hoped they could adapt variable vane technology from turbos to the turbines, but they are made differently. Of course they seen to be having a hard time fitting them to cars too...not like it could be that expensive...maybe they just don't want to move too fast.:rolleyes: When did Chryco make that, like '94 or something? Really helps it spool and work better at less than wot ranges I read.

[jimmyb]

450 ft/lbs of torque? what rpm?

that is one modified 13b, if that number is correct...

[jmc]

more pics

[jmc]

more pics

[Hydrovector]

http://www.freedom-motors.com/

[Bob T]

Co ,wicked .Ive owned rotary cars since 1983 and often thought they'd make a great o.b.One thing I know is that the exhaust i s VERY hot and very noisy!Will the turbo take care of the noise ,and do you plan to cool the exhaust in some manner?

[STV_Keith]

It's a very cool idea. My boss and I have kicked the idea around, but I just don't have the funds to play with it. Please keep us up to date on your progress.

[Hole$hot]

keep the info comming. Maybe a pic or two.

[mhr]

VTGs really are that much more expensive. They have approximately 4 to 5 times the parts of a conventional turbo and almost all of those parts are made from high nickel super alloys. The newest designs use a water-cooled electronic actuator to control the vanes and a shaft speed sensor. Manufacturing costs are about 5 to 8 times the cost of a conventional turbo, and then you have to program the ECU to control the boost.

Of course almost all of the commercial diesel market will be VTG by 2007, that’s when new emission rules come in. They affect everything even tractors and combines.

Mike
mharris@turbos.bwauto.com

[Cobalti]

This is cool! I love the response and the input.
There is nothing stock about this engine. There are two versions of it in two separate drag cars. The second one is testing the water to air intercooler. In its current form itproduces 420hp at the rear wheels. The motor that I will build will use alluminium end plates, and we are toying with the idea of using RX8 rotors. Yes, it has the potential to produce the power I mentioned and in a car it would do it for about 100000km before arebuild. This would equate to many hours on water.
The gas turbine (Rolls RoiceAllison 250) wasthe inspiration of this project. Built by Marine Turbine Technologies is awsome! How tall wound you be owning that on the lake! Unfortunately they are built to aircraft spek so they are prohibitally expensive.
Yes rotaries are very noisy, and the exaust is hot. How cool is that. Do you know of a band that plays better music to your ears?? But I MAY fit a wuffler and run water thru it we will see.
THe great thing is that after I finish this I have the mould for the bellhousing and the specs for all the adaptors.
Cool guys! Ceep the info and pics comig! I'm new to this forum and I think its cool!:D

[toyomirage02]

jmc.......how fast did them bass boats run

[Hot Shot Merc]

Faster than your mirage:eek:

[randy 77zt]

i have a mirage with a 2.5 but since i have been a auto mechanic for 20 years i have worked on a few mazdas.since i have a sports car that gets track days so i look at rx7s.here in california the rotorys are used in sand rails.99% of all the rotary engines loose the sump pump to lube the apex seals.the seals lastbetter with 100to1 2 stroke oil.the available lake water is great for intercooling the turbo.the turbo will muffle it some.if somebody could make a bellhousing/mid section adaptor and figure out the oil system mods the rest would be easy.there are many aftermarkit efi systems to replace the oem system .then the engine could tuned with a laptop.question-flwheel on top or bottem?the honda car boys are buying a lot of jspec engines around my area so the engine sales shops have 13b turbo clips around.

[Cobalti]

As I mentioned, I'm building the motor to leg gellhousing. We already have all the coordinates and centres. I would say that by january we will have the pattern. So I'll have the mold. It is costing an arm and a leg but I think its worth it! The drive plate is on the bottom, in the bellhousing that I'm building. the starter mounts is on the starbord side to allow room for the steering ram on the port side, as the gear box is right hand rotating. it mounts from the bottom onto the bellhousing. This is to keep the centre of gravity low. The only problem is water splashing on it, but I will tacle this later. This leaves, also, more room on top for alternator, possibly dry sump oil pump. There is also an adaptor that mounts on the crank with the splines to allow the drive shaft to be insearted as per normal. All these components will be avaliable when I'm done. I also intend on building a mold for a bellhousing with the starter on the port side, to be used for twin applications.
I will show photos as soon as I have a pattern.

[sho305]

The good things always return. You can't read this (http://www.egarrett.com/about_garrett/pressrelease_content.jsp?prid=14&prdate=2001-02-27) and think we actualy care about fuel use in the USA, or at the least all the suvs here would be powered by turbo diesels that would serve that purpose well. But you can't buy them here. How can the cost be that bad when the stuff is in regular production for europe? Even CA is not doing it...

Sorry, I get hot about that when I see some politician or green freak who says not a word about a proven viable solution like this, that works today. Obviously they don't care; they have some other agenda. Researching hydrogen is great, but what about right now...variable cam timing, simple regenerative hybrids, DI diesel, etc.; all proven stuff that could be done now and still performs well so you can sell it. Too much rocking chair time....

Oops just ranting, but the computer can control anything with a little programming and you will have one for efi anyway, so why not take advantage of these things? Sure it is harder for someone in their back yard to use/get these tools, but I can't see the cost as an issue to the giants. The day is close though, looking at the new PCU posted here you can tune yourself. Since they had the VNT sold/operating on a car back in 1988, one would have thought anyone could do it easy today. There I go thinking again.:rolleyes:

This place shows a VNT pretty cheap unless it does not include the vane parts http://www.turbo-power.com/pricing.html

[Cobalti]

January I should have the first photos of the dummy set up, as we have to build all the manifolds and brakets around it. I'm trying to get hold of some photos of another 13b rotary that was mounted on a marc leb here about 10 years ago. They got it working well but the rest of the rig was not up to scratch. I have no idea where it is now, but I met the mechanic that got it working for him, eventually. The only mjour problem they had was that the rear seal was never intended to seal oil in the vertical position. There is a way aroud it apparently.

I have heard that Mercury, in the 70's bought 4 new RX7's, removed the motors, and fitted them to their outboards to test at lake X. I'm told they could not get the things to come on the plane, however once towed to plane, they were very fast indeed.
Does any body have more information on this? My source is a prominat Mercury figure here in Australia, so I'm sure it is true.

I'm surprized that nobody has come forward, or knows anyone with a similar project. I'm all the more determined to make it work.

I fear my hull is not up to scretch though! An australian monohull 18.5 foot long does not inspire much confidence after 95mph (gps). Although good enough to begin testing, not good enough to develop all the potential speed. I wouldn't mind importing one of yours. Which one?? Allison? STV? Give me some idea. Which would you like to see this motor behind and why?

[stoker2001]

try a late model mirage river racer.i have flown mine to 128 on radar and lived to tell about it:D i was ussing 31`pitch,waited till it hit 118 then held naws button for three seconds.i need to know if anyone has gone faster in rr,so it will inspire me to break my own personel best http://www.hotboat.com/image_center/data/523/55wheeliemirage-med.jpg

[Cobalti]

Finalized the oiling system today with Anthony (runs a shop called Maztech. Those of you youwho are into car drag racing may have seen some of his rotarycars when he races in the states) the engine guru.

We have decided to use a dry sump external, engine driven, oil pump. We want to mount it on the bellhousing via a sandwich plate b/t the motor and the bellhousing. The adaptor pulley custom made to drive it is mounted on the crank after the drive plate via the same bolts. In the centre is the splined female adaptof for the drive shaft. I'll probably mount it behind the sump, facing down .I'll use a Gilmer stile toothed belt to drive it with a tentioner pulley (bit like a cam belt). The whole thing will have to be fully sealed ofcourse.

The pump is triple action, in that it has a pump action to drive oil to the original pump, which will be at the very top of the motor. It also has two scavenging chambers to remove oil from the bottomof the motor, so as no to help the bottom oil seal.

This week I deliver the pump to the engineer doing the bellhousing. He already has a dummy unit set up. I will bring my camera.:D

[sho305]

For my .02 I'm thinking a skater or liberator type tunnel would be a good test hull you could run in most conditions, and get some good speed out of...good known comparisons to existing power too. Or you could go to a superboat/etc vee style too, but would be harder to drive if you are concentrating on the motor stuff. Just thinking if you are running a 20' or less hull that fast, you will be driving too much to make it easy to test a new motor and fiddle with it at the same time; plus you might have to wait for good conditions depending on where you are running. Try it on them when it is sorted out some.

[Cobalti]

The SKater is a prominent hull in Offshore, and your .02 does make a lot of sense. What Skater would be the best to fit a single motor do you think? In their net sight, the smallest they offer is a 28' with two motors but on one of the videos on S&F there is a smaller one with a single application. What sortof price do they go for over there? I also heard that they have handelling problems at low speed, is this true? Although, i suppose none of this has anythingto do with going slow.:)

[sho305]

I'm not a skater pro, but I am sure some here are. Do you have an estimate of weight and power for the motor package?

At100plus has one on here. The basics would be a skater will be very fast and handle rough water for it size very well in a straight line. Like many tunnels, it don't like turning slow and will lean outwards. And you see the offshore guys roll in corners, but they are racing too. I hear sometimes they have a porpoise problem at medium speeds too. I think the biggest problem with a skater, is the thing is fast and stable @ wot; so fast you can get into water you should not be running and bang you are in trouble. You can use a tab, or tunnel tab to flatten it out even more. Just have to keep reality in mind and know when to back off. A vee will start beating you until you chill out. But on good water a skater will fly nice and easy, don't know what you have to run on there.

Some say a single on a tunnel is a disadvantage, but they work and I see them...like the 300 Mercs. I think they run 21-24' with a 300ob. Just thinking you should have no problem maxing it out in reasonable water, and still get some great stable speeds from a hull like a skater. There are others similiar, like the liberator/etc. Personally, I like the deeper deck type like a skater...likely from running vees that way where you can stand up in bolsters. That is way fun.:cool:

Check this out: http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42120&highlight=skater maybe search those posts for more info.

Also Vicious here makes some nice offshore hulls he has posted about, knows a lot about them.

[aqualoony]

wow another aussie!
Sounds like an awesome project!!! What is the hull you have now? a Bullet or similar? I have been looking at bit at bringing a HUll over from the states to, but it costs a small fortune on top of the initial price of the hull. Depending on what size boat you are after there are some pretty good performance boats here in oz such as the Connelly 2100 and i have seem them hit the 130mph mark before, fairly often to with sterndrive power adn also i've seen 125mph with twin merc s3000 outboards on the back, same ges for cyclone hulls as well. brand new the connelly hull in light weight form is around the 28000 AUD mark i think

[sosmerc]

Could that have been Ron Anderson?:D

[Cobalti]

Sho305

Tanks for the info and the web sight. The photos in it of the Skater a pretty cool. It makes me wish I had the money for two motors. Damn thet money! Gets in the way of all good projects! Do you have any idea what they go for?



Aqualuny

G'day mate! Where are you from? The boat I have at the moment is a Concept 1850 mid weight monohull. I bought it new from Glen Canpbell 7 years ago when he was racing " Stokin Racing ". I have spoken to Ian about the Connally, I'm subscribed to Force boats e-mail, and I know Cyclone boats very well. Unfortunately, together with other ozzy boats, they don't come close to the efficiency of for eg. The American Allison, and when you talk to them directly you realize they are on another level. Not cause we don't know how to build boats, but there isn't the market here to warrent the necessary R&D, thus you see that none of the designs have changed in years and years. There just isn't enough of us loonies! Too many inboarders! What is it about those retro tech inefficient rear mount v drives! I had one for 10 months to realize the value of an outboard! He...He...He.
What have you got mate? Do you race or just have a great time?
BY the way Graham Loyd Of Australian Power Boat has already reserved a space for the story on my motor when it's finished.

[DSP1]

Cobalti,

Have you looked at a LAB boat - would suggest these are the most efficient of the Aus boats that I've come across. The newer model runs flatter yet still high - ie: less prone to blowing over.

There's a 21ft model getting around at the moment as well - not sure if it's intended to go onto production ?

Contact is Bruce Stubbs at Sportsfisherman marine in Sydney - 02 9540 5444.

Have some photos if your after ???

[aqualoony]

Hey buddy!!
Well i'm a sydney sider !!!! Good to hear you are keeping Graham up to date on your project, i can't wait to read abotu it!!!! I email Graham fairly often!! heaps nice guy, haven't had a chance ot meet him in person yet! I agree with you on the R and D thing, i have been looking a bit at the allisons as well, only prob is they don't really have enough onboard space for the bummy social skiing i do! Being only 19 my current bit of drift wood is a 21 y/o caribbean half cab that we have owened since new, but hopefully mid to late next year i will have the cash to get something a bit newer, i have been sort of workign out what i can cope with on a relatively tight budget, and also i'm not to experienced in the speed stakes yet, so i was just gonna get an outboard connelly or Force to sort of begin on! maybe an F23 so i have the space for all the ski gear and an esky;) and also a bit of freeboard is needed coz i love the rough stuff, even though most of my skiing is doen at the ocean end of the Hawkesbury!!!! Speakign of that...Bridge to Bridge this weekend!!! i'll hopefully have lots of pics to post by monday!

[randy 77zt]

for an efficient hull design to look at for a pic goto www.dcbracing.com check out the mach 22.runs about 95 or so with a 300x.liberator makes hull like that too.if the motor weighs more than 400lbs(180 kilos) a 18' mirage or stv would be too small.but a 18' mirage would fit in a standard 20' sea container.

[Cobalti]

The mirage and stv look great, and thanks for the pointer about the container size. I'm trying very hard to kleep the weight under 180kg, I guess I woun't know till the end.:)

[randy 77zt]

cobalti-i own a 18' 4 seat mirage witha 2.5 260 merc .if you could keep weight of motor down by running a ported non turbo 13b you would probably come up with the equal to a 2.5.with turbo the weight would go up-less porting plus turbo = more torque.that motor would be more like a 300x.i think a 300x is about 500lb/230kilo.merc parts prices are bad enough in the states.gold is probably cheaper than merc parts down under.

[Cobalti]

You're not wromg mate. Those prices are dinamite! Infact if I build another motor, the dearest components will be ...you guessed it...Mercury! Luckely I picked them up second hand from an offshore racer. But as per typical salt use half the screws and bolts were seazed! The main steering shaft is all corroded. You would think htat for what you pay you would get more stainless.

The whole unit is apart, all pivot points are getting custom machining and custom vasconite bushings to bring all tolerances to zero. I will show photos of this soon.:)

[hydro-cat]

Johnson Rotary

[Cobalti]

You musty have more photos! That is the best one of the OMC rotary I have seen yet! Please sir.....can I have some more?????:D

[Cobalti]

Here is a photo of a 13b rotary that was done 10 years ago.

It is messy, but it worked! Eventually. The interesting thing is that Mercury couldn't get theirs to produce enough torque to get their boats on a plane at lake X.

Definitely a different budget, and standard but credit must be given to the owner for what he has done.

[hydro-cat]

Are these motors some type of automotive or industrial engine that normally set horizontal instead of vertical?

Tim

[Cobalti]

Are they just pictures? Do you know the whereabouts of that motor? What is it worth? Are any of the others still around? Is it still running??

More please....more pictures...please??
:)

I don't know much about them only what I wread on S&F in the "coolest outboard" community discussion.