1750xs questions

[nelsoncat]

I know this has been discussed before but I can't seem to find the thread I was thinking of in the archives so here goes again. What were the main differences between a 1750 and a xs1750? What parts would one need to make a clone or are there any out there? What year cowls are similar and were they short shaft or not? I think an xs clone would look really cool on my vector seeing how they are the same vintage!! Where might I find the parts needed?
Thanks
Craig

[MN4V]

Wasnt the 1750 XS the original SST 120 race motor?
Built in the late 70s.
Mark Nelson

[Raceman]

The 1750XS/T3 was the similar to a production powerhead mounted on a 12" mid with the old style SSM. (SuperSpeedmaster) There were different configurations, depending on what level of help a particular racer had. As a general rule for the privateer, they were basically stock 1750 powerheads with plastic reeds, alum. flywheels, and tighter heads. They even had the old vertical reed front halfs. They later offered these engines with the Bendix mechanical injection, which the factory boats had early on.

[Raceman]

MN4V, the 1750XS was Merc's baddest race engine in the mid 70's and as such ran in the Mod U class. I saw them the first time at Miami in 1975 at the APBA nationals. These engines already had the red 1750XS/T3 stickers. Before this time there were some factory boats floating around with the same cowl, but with a large blue T3 and no red stickers. I never saw one in this configuration at the races, but the local dealer had the poster on his wall sometime in 74 when I went in the first time to buy my 73 Sidewinder (left over from previous year).

[Raceman]

There's a picture of mine from about 77 down toward the bottom of the first page of this thread:

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42035

[T2x]

Raceman:

Do the names Bucky Morris or Buck Thornton ring a bell with you?

T2x

[Raceman]

The name Bucky Morris seems vaguely familiar, although I can't quite place it. I met Buck Thornton on several occasions, although there's no reason for him to remember. I bought a SSM from him at Eufaula one year, and have several pictures of his boat, including the one with the high rear canopy on the boat immediately after he changed from the T2X powerhead to the 1750XS. I think I posted that one somewhere before.

[Raceman]

I remember the name Bucky Morris now. I think he had some kind of tunnel at Hazlehurst one year, a non pickle fork, with a Stinger GP. I know that year that Jenks was there, and it was at least a year or 2 before he died.

I also remember that Buck Thornton was an exec of some kind with Rhodes furniture. He was in the store here for one day for some reason and I went by and picked up somethin' from him, although I can't remember what............. probably a blade or something. Anyhow, he was corporate management at some level with them.

[Raceman]

I had a boat very similar to that, but can't recall the brand. The boat was very narrow in comparison with other tunnels of that timeframe, and had the extremely long pickleforks. Mine also had a brace up in the very front tying the tips together. I bought it used and never ran it but was told they were very prone to blowover.

[T2x]

The original Geechee was an oddball looking thing, that ran like the hammers of Hades....... The boat was so ungainly that a lot of people didn't take it seriously........ until it blew them off.

I remember vividly a heat race at Smith Mountain Lake where Bucky Morris ran neck and neck against Bob Van Epps in his Sidewinder tunnel/Merc BP.....Van Epps could not get around Morris until........ Coming down to the finish line Van Epps trimmed his little hull to the moon and kited the thing past the Geechee... Some how he brought the thing back down off its prop blades..... and won. My clearest recollection of that was watching two guys fall out of the side of the Mercury truck while trying to watch that finish..........

Those were the days my friends.

T2x

[Raceman]

You're right Jim, it was a McCall. I couldn't think of the name. It was real ugly by comparison and the more I looked at it, the more I wanted to get rid of it. Last I knew, it was in the back storage building of a pawn shop in the same town as my lakehouse.

[Raceman]

I'm pretty sure it had a number, but I don't remember it. The only thing I do remember is that the whole boat was natural wood colored. I'm gonna make a call or two and see if it's still around. It's so ugly I don't think I'd want it back, but it'd make an interesting picture to post anyway.

[Glenn]

Raceman,

You mentioned some of the early 1750XS/T3's had vertical reeds. Curious what kind of RPM they were getting out of those motors at the time? My regular old 1750 has vertical reeds of course and was wondering what kind of restriction they are or aren't on the stock(porting) motor.

Glenn

[nelsoncat]

Seems you are thinking along the same lines as me. I want to try Capt. Insanos perscription for 1750 HiPo but wanted to explore every option. Bolt ons are where it will end unless I find another motor cheap. The next motor project will be something more current for my next boat(HST) then the 1750 will get short shafted and put on the Tigershark and the short shaft 1400 will go on the Vector for the kids when they get older!
Craig

[Glenn]

I kept that paragraph he wrote detailing what he did to the motor. Seems he made quite a screemer out of it but only after adding a horizontal front half and finger ports. I don't recall Craig if you are running yours with a LWP? Mine's turning a little over 6000 with 2 in the boat spinning a 26 Chopper, no LWP. My water PSI has always been high on that motor and just pegs the gauge this year since changing the impeller. Runs cool, around 145-150(head temp).

Glenn

[LakeRacer99]

Hey Glenn and NCat...
I am very interested in the T3 as well. I retired my 77 1750 to a stand in my garage, I have been thinking about building a backyard T3 with the powerhead. This motor is a low hour motor and would turn 6K with a 28Chopper on my VKing. Were the lower units 2:1 on the 1750? Seemed to just scream and scream on.
RM...
Are the horizontal reeds a 1750xs thing or would they be the same as the later production motors? Did they make plastic reeds for the vert motors?

Thanks,
Jason

[Glenn]

Pretty sure my case is 2:1. When I punch in my Pitch, RPM's and GPS numbers they add up to a 2:1 gears.

Glenn

[nelsoncat]

Glenn, I've got a Bobs cone with low water pickup and a 28"Hydromotive TX4. To be truthful I don't know what kind of R's its running. The boat is still a handfull to drive but I'm getting there with the weight dist. and all. I was doing a lot of testing with the motor all the way up on the plate and was scared to trim at all; at Nickfest Pat Brown was helping me and said to drop it to midway. It really seemed to help and I was getting comfortable flying it in the low 70's but every time we came to a slow no wake it took on more and more water to the point that it took half the lake to plane out. I had everything in the truck to install a bilge pump but spent the whole morning in the motel parking lot B.S. ing instead. Live and learn. One drive in Halveb's HST hooked me. There is something about get in grab the wheel, stab the throttle and go over 80 that appeals to me. When they said "your grandmother could drive it at 90 with one hand" they weren't that far off, except maybe for the torque steer!! I'm thinking about shaving the heads and trying to find a horiz front half but don't know what fits. I just bought a Holley Blue fuel pump and regulator and guage for it. He said to set it at 4psi. My pump is getting bad and Merc says parts are NLA!! So holley electric it is. I would like to find a 1750xs cowl for it but that may be dreaming.
Later

Craig

[nelsoncat]

As far as I know no one makes aftermarket reeds for a vert which is what I understand the xs is. I'm not really sure, thats why I'm posting here. I'm pretty sure the LU is 2to1. Mine is a spring load pin version and I don't know what kind of R's they can handle without the gears floating! From what I have been able to find out they were a durable old motor with steel sleeves, If you look in the old Merc literature they are heavier than the 200 hp v6. Must be the sleeve. OK now 1750xs guru's help us out!!!!!!!
Craig

[Raceman]

The 1750XS/T3 that was first put in the hands of the privateers looked identical externally to a production 1750 block with the air box removed from the carbs and an alum. flywheel and enrichening solenoid added, right down to the black paint. Like the other champ housing/speedmaster equipped V6 race motors from Merc, the timing was locked at full advance. These were vertical reed motors and had plastic reeds from the factory. I believe that changing the front half to the 10 pedal type is one of the most effective mods somebody could make to an old 1750 powerhead. Merc soon had the Bendix set up for em and the 6 one barrel Tillotsens, both of which had the change to horizontal front halves.

As far as RPM's, the Mod U racers turned their stuff a lot harder than I did mine because they had to get off the corners too, and my stuff was just lake toys and set up for kilo attempts and backyard drag racing. Although the vertical front half is restrictive, I don't think it would limit the RPM (except from lack of horsepower), since the tunnel boat racers probably turned em 8's or maybe even 9's back then. Let's don't forget also that the first 2.4's came with the vertical reed front halves also. I always ran about all the pitch I could find on my stuff anyway, and found that the boats would always run faster on top that way. I still believe it today, up to some point that I've never found of course.

The plastic reeds for the verticals were available from Merc back then, but I'm sure they're long since NLA. I don't know if anybody makes em aftermarket, but with all the horizontal front halves laying around it's a change I'd definately make.

[Raceman]

As far as the gearcase ratio, all the early 1750's had 1.87's from the factory as did the 2.4's. If they stuck 2:1's in em it was in V1500's and I don't even think they did it with them in the beginning.

The 1750 XS type cowl itself isn't that hard to find because the design itself was used with future engines for a long time and there were tons of em made. The problem is with the stickers. I'm working with somebody who thinks they can repro some stickers such as the 1500XS and the 1750XS/T3 stickers would be next on the list if this works out.

[LakeRacer99]

Nelson...
My 1750 turned that 28 pretty good, I ran it like that for a couple years. But I did puke the guts on the pre-load style case on my way up to 6K. I did balance my Viking out, by removing the foam in the rear and moving the battery over there, then the trim pump and gastank to try to off set the driver weight on the starbd side. Once you get the motor up high on the transom the torque is very minimal. I ran a L&S cone, Bobs 5" Jack plate, Holley red, cheapo regulator, filters, no air silencer and no can in the mid with 10 1/2" holes. Besy all around prop was a 26 chopper that was cut like an ET/yammy.

Thanks for the help RM.
Do you know if the horiz intake from a 2.4 would fit or would it need to be a 2.0L (if they had em). I have an aftermarket fiberglass cowl like the T3, I was gonna play with it a bit. Looks like the technique Wingnut's uncle used on Ronnie's cowl would have potential to satisfy most of us.

jason

[Raceman]

Jason, assuming it's early stuff, the 2 liter and 2.4 liter fronts will interchange. As always with that kinda swap you'll need to check the case alignment. I'm sure at some point the interchangeability went away, but it was MUCH later and I don't have any idea of the year. (I'd guess 90's, but don't know for sure)

[LakeRacer99]

Cool, Thanks.
I'll have to look into this.

[nelsoncat]

I new I could count on you for help. What years of race style cowls are the same as 1750xs? I want to start shopping! So a late 70's 2.4 front would interchange with a 2.0? Were they matched at the factory like blocks and main caps in a V-8 etc?

On the gear ratio subject I looked at my 1978 Merc literature and the specs have the 200 at 1.87 and the 1500 and 1750 at 2-1. the 2.0's were 18 pounds heavier thaan the 2.4!!!!

Thanks again

Craig

[Raceman]

I don't remember the exact years of the cowls, but they run up into the 80's. There were some differences in where the cowls were cut for vents if you're looking for absolute originality, but I believe it was ommissions from the older ones, so they could be added if you find a later one that's appropriate.

The difference in the weight of the old 2 liter and 2.4 liter engines was in the fact that the 2.4's were chrome plated alum. cyls, while the 2 liters had the cast iron cyl's cast in the block. I've heard of people having to remove the dowel pins when mismatching block components, but I've never had to do it with any of my stuff. Merc always recommended against mixing block halves, but sold replacement fronts with the 6 carb Tillotsens and horizontal reeds as bolt on replacements.

[LakeRacer99]

I think Merc used the square cowls up until the 1987 bridgeport style. I don't have any good pics of 1750XS motors. Do any of you guys have detailed shots? Cowl close ups?
Thanks,

[Glenn]

I'd like to see some pics of the 1750XS as well. Raceman, you say the the cylinders are iron cast in the block? Not steel? What does that mean if I were to scuff a cylinder? Thanks you for sharing your info with us. Here are a couple of shots of my '78 1750. I don't think the cyl heads have even been removed. The fuel pumps are gone and I've added a PSI and Temp gauge and that's it....

Glenn

[Glenn]

other side...

[Glenn]

back...

[QUICKSILVER]

Someone was asking about plastic reeds for the vertical intakes. The 5 petal horizontal are the same reed cages as the vertical. They will interchange and are still available. I have 2 sets of good used ones, if anybody wants them, cheap. When someone refers to a steel cyl, they are actually talking about cast iorn. The replacement cyls from LA Sleeve are cast iorn, and the factory cyls are cast iorn.

[Capt.Insane-o]

Turn 'em all day long. Especially with big rods and light pins. They are a good motor to start messing around with. Mine ran for 3 years of 76-7700 rpm, just needs rings and reeds. I should fresh it up a post it. Lqdegl, Sean has a bad little 2.0 project going on.

[nelsoncat]

Will a late 70's 2.0 fit on a newer mid, say a Hipo from the 90's??? How about a newer sportmaster LU are all V6's similar in that respect? Any particular front half and carbs to look for? Where do you get the colored wires and those little hoses?

Craig

[Capt.Insane-o]

Yes they will, it would be best to find and older 1 piece exhaust tuner plate so the exhaust ports match. Land&Sea made one. Not sure if they still do. Merc of course. By wires I assume the harnesses? Rapair has all the harnesses.Horizontal intakes are pretty much the same. Wh-20 carbs worked the best for me. Also ran 22's with nitrous without much hassle. The new 4 petal reed cages are nice. Have us1 fix a set of wiseco's for you and set it up loose. I ended up using merc pistons and the worked okay so far, but would feel much safer with forged under the n2o.

[Raceman]

"Will a late 70's 2.0 fit on a newer mid, say a Hipo from the 90's??? How about a newer sportmaster LU are all V6's similar in that respect? Any particular front half and carbs to look for? Where do you get the colored wires and those little hoses?"

If you can't find a one piece adapter like Cap'n suggested, you can always change the plates on top of the mid to the old stuff too. The old 2 liter blocks had bigger exhaust openings at the bottom. All the V6 gearcases interchange. The 5 pedal fronts are pletiful and work well. I'd stay away from a cross drilled intake. As far as the bleed hoses, the Tygon tubing that's available in any small engine repair shop and most Ace Hardware stores doesn't seem to get brittle and break as fast as the black stuff like Merc uses. Some people don't like the greenish/clear color.

[LakeRacer99]

"Will a late 70's 2.0 fit on a newer mid, say a Hipo from the 90's??? How about a newer sportmaster LU are all V6's similar in that respect?

Yes, My 1977 1750 was run on a middle 80's mid with single trim ram like the hi-po. I kept the 1750 exhaust plate because it has the biggest holes I have seen. Larger than the 2.4-2.5 plate. Seems like there was something funny about the upper mount bolt diameter, I don't remember exactly.

Hey Glen, what is the deal with your intake manifold? No Merc black paint? Was it replaced?

Here are a couple of my 1977 1750.

[LakeRacer99]

otha side...

[Raceman]

As far as the looks of the early 1750XS/T3, they were cosmetically pretty much just like the production powerhead, with the exception of the alum. flywheel, the carbs having no air box/butterfly plate, and an external solenoid which primed the cyls, since there was no butterfly plate bolted to the front of the carbs. Also, the timing was locked at full advance, so there was no upper arm on the throttle linkage, going up to the trigger. It was actually sawed off so the spring mechanism would still be functional. These engines had no mechanical fuel pump either. There were some early carb changes with hoses venting from the bowls to the top of the carbs, which helped with fuel slosh on cornering, but my engine didn't have em. The hoses from the heads were routed differntly, and there was no poppet valve. If I remember right, mine had a discharge hose plumbed off each head and didn't have thermostats or restrictors. I also think I'm remembering that my first one had the block painted black, which was very unusual for high perf motors, but I switched powerheads around so much back then, that I'm not sure of that.

[nelsoncat]

The colored wires were Spark plug wires. An old(1990) Hot boat issue had a place that advertised all different colors. I thought Simon Motorsports had the colored hoses. I was searching my old issues of hotboat to find the test on the STV procomp and saw that ad. 13 years ago there were a lot more of what I would call "COOL" boats in Hotboat.

Any other 1750 tidbits would be greatly appreciated.

Capt, Iwas searching old hull posts and ran across the thread where you bought your HST from Pinbouy. Did you get the motor with the 2.0 that was advertised with it?

Thanks
\
Craig

[Glenn]

Hmmm! I just noticed that when looking at your pics. Never had it changed since I had it. They're usually painted along with the front half and block?

Glenn

[Capt.Insane-o]

Both of those were trashed 2.4's, 1 ran and the other was a mess, crooked sleeves, a couple of the pistons had a needle bearing left out of the pin end. basically Junk. Got some good parts and stuff out of them. When I cut my first 2.0 I had no idea what the hell I was doing, but it came out great. They are not for heavy boats though, work killer on vipers and vectors, but was a dog on my HST. I'm only foolinf around with 2.5's now for myself, but will be doing 1 more 2.4 for sportracer next year for a vector I repadded and did some bottom changes to.

[LakeRacer99]

Cool RM, thanks for the info, do you still have a T3?
This is the only shot of a T3 cowl I have and I may have got it from you.
Looking for detailed shots of all 4 sides.
Thanks

[nelsoncat]

The external solenoid for priming; what is it and how does it work. If you use velocity stacks is this what you need for cold starting? Are the lightweight flywheels like the ones JSRE sells aluminium or are the radically milled steel ones. Are any aluminium flywheels around anymore for the 1750?

Glenn, are you running an electric fuel pump?

Craig

[LakeRacer99]

is the primer solenoid the same as what they used on the later motors w/out a choke plate. I think the Aluminum flywheels are the same as what was available on the other stock HP v6 motors, am I correct? No milling. They all look alike to me even the ones on the Twister, this is from pics of course.

NCat, you didn't ask me, but I was running a electric fuel pump on mine. If you look at the pics I posted, I removed the stock fuel pump completely.

[Glenn]

Craig,

I'm running a Holley Red with no regulator. Filter before the pump. Has been running good for 3 seasons now.

LakeRacer99

Here's a pic of my 1750 plate compared to a 2.4 plate on the left....

[LakeRacer99]

Awesome Glenn. I have a pict exactly like that only I compared mine to a one piece plate from a Bridgeport. It is interesting that these are much different from the later model 2.0 and 2.4L production stuff. I have never owned a newer 2.0L to compare mine to performancewise, I went staight to a HP 2.5L.

[QUICKSILVER]

The first V6's had yellow plug wires and orange coils.

[Raceman]

I've got most everything to put a complete T3 together now except a decent set of stickers. The flywheels were the same as what we have now, except there were a different number of teeth on the ring gear for the earlier style starter. That T3 cowl picture isn't one of mine, but it's what I'm looking for.

Here goes another "if I remember", but seems like the enrichner solenoid went to the hoses back on the side of the cyl's. and the check valves on the front were blocked. I've got one old video that should show one of mine with the cowl off and I'm gonna try to find it. One thing that's definately different in the system then in comparison to the newer production one is that the T3 version primed all 6 cyls and was spliced into the fuel supply circuit, which is fed by an electric pump. This allowed the gas to be squirted through the enrichening circuit under pressure. The later style production system gets it's fuel supply via gravity from the float bowl of the top carb and gravity feeds into the front of the engine in only a couple of cyl's. The race version works a lot better.

I remember the coils being orange, but can't remember the color of the plug wires.

[LakeRacer99]

The plugs wires on my 77 1750 are yellow and the coils are red. again this is a production motor, i don't know about the T3.

Raceman, sounds like a good weekend project for ya, putting that box of T3 parts back together. Maybe me, nelsoncat and glenn can help...:)
Here is another shot of a T3 I found on Skip Hagerman's website. Please note that some one has adapted a shiftable gearcase to it though and this was not original.

[Raceman]

That's also the wrong midsection for the early T3. The ones with those stickers came with the 6 bolt housing (same as the T2X), which was prone to failure in both the housing and the gearcase adapter.

Side note: Chris Ray, aka Six Killer who just won the world championship in Sportracer at Jasper has the older 6 bolt housing on his boat, complete with cracked adapter plate.

[nelsoncat]

Neat Stuff!!!!! I wish we could find 4 cowls new in the box(one for each of us!!!)
How do you guys wire the electric fuel pumps? I bought a holley blue with a regulator right before Nickfest but didn't get it installed. Do you run thru a relay?

Last Question; as long as I'm in a learning mode, what is the difference between a Fishing, Hiperformance, and an offshore mid???????

Where would I find that solenoid and a plumbing diagram?????

Thanks

Craig

[Raceman]

I never ran a relay with my fuel pumps back then, but always do now. I don't know if Merc still has the solenoids available. It'd probably be worth a call to High Perf to ask.

"what is the difference between a Fishing, Hiperformance, and an offshore mid???????"

An Offshore mid has the snout on the back and is considerably stronger than the other two. It only came with a one piece plate at the top and the lower mount bolts bolt directly to it, eliminating motor mounts like the std. housing. The fishing mid has rubber mounts, two piece upper plates and removeable rubber mounts upper and lower. It also has an exhaust liner or can. The old High Perf style mid was basically a modified fishin' mid. It had some exhaust relief holes at the bottom, the can removed and a one piece upper plate just like the one on the offshore. It also had solid lower mounts that were removeable like the fishing mid, but machined from solid alum, rather than steel and rubber. I'm also pretty sure that the Offshore and High Perf mids were only offered with the trim pump seperate from the engine, instead of integrated into the transom bracket like some of the fishing mids were.

[nelsoncat]

I was looking in my Mercury shop manual for these motors and it looks as though they were offered with either chokes ar the fuel enrichment solenoid. The 225 looks as though it was only available that way. It looks like it is the gravity feed variety. Was there ever a tech/parts manual for the 1750xs? A diagram of how to plumb the solenoid for an electric fuel pump would be neat!!!

Craig

[Capt.Insane-o]

that are on the float bowl, you'll have to update to the newer float bowls, which are ridiculously cheap, I think I paid something like $14.00 for the float bowl assembly, ie floats, bowls, needles and seats.:eek: :confused: From the same people that charge us 34 bucks for a water pump guide tube.:mad:

[Raceman]

Captain, we're talkin' about 2 different things here. The 1750XS solenoid, which was basically the same as the T2/T2X and the 650X/700X/650XS was not gravity fed, but rather plumbed off the fuel line from the electric pump, but before the carbs. The production V 6 that used the gravity fed system was different alltogether, from the routing to the solenoid itself.

[Capt.Insane-o]

In my garage there are manuals for all the 650x-xs 700x. And the t2 -1750 xs. An older guy up here gave me a bunch of Mark and 75-79 115-150 inline powerheads and a ton of old service manuals. and brochures.Along with a lot of old service tools. As I remember all of the t-xs and some others. Manuals were copies, but all there If I get off my ass today I'll dig em out and scan them.

[nelsoncat]

I would love a copy of the 1750xs parts and service manuals.
What would it cost to have a few copies made. My buddy reproduces Minneapolis Moline tractor books and just takes them to Kinko's.

Its a beautiful day for fall boating, too bad I have to fix the combine!!!

Craig

[Raceman]

"In my garage there are manuals for all the 650x-xs 700x. And the t2 -1750 xs."

Cap'n, I sure could use copies of all that stuff too. I've been trying hard to come up with manuals, or at least breakdowns for the 3 cyl race stuff since I've been workin' on this 13 Ally project, but can't find em in anybody's old micro fische set. I'd love to have the T2 & T 3 stuff too.

I'll be glad to get it copied and send it back if you'd rather do it that way.

[nelsoncat]

Me too!!!! Or if Raceman does it maybe you could do 2 and I'll pay for a copy.

Sweeeeeet, like a HEMI (don't you love those adds)

Craig

[LakeRacer99]

Cappy, I'd also like a copy of the T2, T3 and the 3cyl stuff.
Just let us know.
Thanks,
jason

[Capt.Insane-o]

Some of the older 50-60's are kind of poor but the newer ones are'nt too bad. I found one box of them. I have a new van coming home in 10 days, my garage is full of parts, engines and a host of other crap, so I need to get the crap to my barn and basement. I have to drive to West Branch today to UPS a prop for Randy Rienke, when I get back I will get all of them rounded up. I am also looking for a nice red or blue, mark 25. If anyone knows of one that is is okay to good cosmetic and mechanical condition let me know. :cool:

[Mark75H]

Capt. I'd like to get copies of those, too :)

[nelsoncat]

Capt. how much money do you need? I'll send you a check. I just want the 1750xs t3 stuff.
Your the Man!!!!!!!

Thanks

Craig

PS upon proofreading that sounds like a loaded question!!!!!!!

[Capt.Insane-o]

I accept cash. ;) I don't need any money for them, what I have are copies of the original manuals in binders. Can't seem to get my scanner to work for some reason, but I'll just take them to a buddy and have him copy them off and I can mail them to you guys. I have a bunch of omc manuals and I know there is some race stuff in those too. I'm tied up this week, Ill see if I can get to it this weekend.

[Capt.Insane-o]

today for copies if you guys still want 'em

[nelsoncat]

Capt. I definately want what ever you have on 1750xs and T3. Let me know what the copying
costs are and give me your address and I'll send you a check. PM if you want.
I for one really appreciate it!!!!!!!!
Thanks

Craig

[Capt.Insane-o]

Happy to pass 'em along. The xs stuff should come out okay, the older stuff is kind of poor oh well.

[Mark75H]

Let me know where to send the $$$$ to cover the postage!!:) :) :)

[LakeRacer99]

Hey Capt:
I too am still on this wagon...I have been gone for a few days.
Let us know and we can send $ for the postage. I am on paypal so that would be easy.
Thanks.

Jason

[Ky River Rat]

Hey Capt:
I would like to get in on this too
Thanks Kenny

[nelsoncat]

Capt any luck getting these copied? Where/how much $$$ do you need for copying/freight/etc.
Craig

[Capt.Insane-o]

My buddy runs a photo/printing place, I dropped the folder off almost a month ago, but it's hunting season here and nothing gets done., just got a new scanner, so I'll just do it myself.:rolleyes:

[Raceman]

Cap'n, the copy of the Formula1 engine manual was dropped off at Kinkos and they did the whole thing. As many people as want these things it'd probaby be easier for you to get somebody like that to do em and just let everybody who's interested pay for em. I'd like to have one also.

[nelsoncat]

Capt.
I agree with raceman, for as many people that have expressed interest you should not have to do it yourself; just take it to Kinko's and pass on the costs. I'm sure everyone who expressed interest will agree, we aren't expecting to get them for free/at your expense!!!!!
Thanks again
Craig

PS I know what you mean about deer season. We are in to the muzzle loading segment right now in Wisconsin. Deer season is almost a state holiday!!!!!!!!!!

[Mark75H]

Certainly not expecting anything for free at this location. Let me know what the cost per copy turns out to be .... and .... its not like the stuff jumps from your house to the print/copy place and back home ... time outta your schedule is worth at least a little more jingle than a verbal "Thank You"


Where I come from, the first day of hunting season IS a holiday.;)

[Capt.Insane-o]

There is one right by my parents house, I'll be down there later in the week and get a dozen peeled off. My buddy runs a shop up here, but getting him out of the woods this time of year is impossible. This time of year I have a lot of time on my hands also, so it is'nt that much of a deal.

[Ky River Rat]

Just let me know where to mail the money I'd be glad to pay for my stuff

Thanks Kenny

[LakeRacer99]

Hey Capt.
I just wanted to let you know I am still in for a copy. Please let us know what it will cost. I agree that you should not have to be out the time or $.
Send me an email with the [email protected]
Later,
jason

[LakeRacer99]

Hey Capt...How's this coming? I haven't heard from ya. I got some $ for ya, when ya ready.
Thanks,
Jason

[CUSTOM PERFORMANCE 1]

Hey Capt, please count me in on a set of manuals for the T2-T2x. Please advise on availability and the cost. Will be a great help in my restoration.
Thanks:)

[Capt.Insane-o]

What I have are copies from the manual.......and you know what happens when you copy a copy. The old guy I got these from died a little bit ago and when I get some time I'm going up to his house and picking a lot of stuff his wife and son said I could have, manuals, parts, couple motors. Just really busy
right now....the xs manuals are of those. Just ned 2 of me and 48hrs in a day now.

[CUSTOM PERFORMANCE 1]

Thanks for the reply.
:)

[Vintage collector]

Just wondering how everyone made out with their projects? Just picked up a 1750XS T-3 the other day. Needs some fixing but looks ok..

[Capt.Insane-o]

**** me.. I still have'nt gotten this done lol, I'm not even sure I got all of my copies back..

[Vintage collector]

Got the original Hydro (Seebold) with the engine and going to restore it to original race condition. Should be lots of fun when it's all done.

[T2x]

Got the original Hydro (Seebold) with the engine and going to restore it to original race condition. Should be lots of fun when it's all done.

I wasn't aware that Seebold made hydros...Are you sure it's not a tunnel hull?

[Powercat]

I wasn't aware that Seebold made hydros...Are you sure it's not a tunnel hull?
Or maybe its a "speedboat" gawd I hate that word..

[MN4V]

Actually, Billy did build a hydro to try and set the Mod 50 kilo record. I saw it hanging at his shop.
Mark N

[T2x]

Actually, Billy did build a hydro to try and set the Mod 50 kilo record. I saw it hanging at his shop.
Mark N

Maybe, but it certainly isn't sitting in BC with a 1750xs on it......

[FUJIMO]

Actually, Billy did build a hydro to try and set the Mod 50 kilo record. I saw it hanging at his shop.
Mark N
Correct. And he also built one in the late 70's for setting a record with a 122 motor. Have no idea what became of it. But, that said...it would be nice to see a photo or three, of your new acquisition Vintage collector...And, welcome to Scream & Fly.

[Vintage collector]

Sorry, yes it is a tunnel hull.. I have a couple pictures of it..
I'm curious if anyone know production numbers of the 1750xs? It seems to be quite hard to find any pictures or information on the internet about the engine so I figure it must harder to come by than I first thought. thanks for the welcoming Fujimo. :-)
257150257151257152

[Mark75H]

Beautiful. Appears as built not modified.

I do not know of any accurate source of production numbers for the 1750xs. An educated guess would be between high hundreds and low thousands ... certainly more than 200 but less than 5,000. Probably less than 3,000.

Its not a popular motor with collectors because it can't be moved by one person and ... on a boat ... its capable of well over 100 mph. Also the tunnel hull boats are very tricky to drive. Even experienced racers occasionally misjudge the water and wind and end up taking a bath and a trip to the boat repair shop.

[Fish]

congratuations Vintage collector, great find and welcome to SnF.

[MN4V]

Very Nice! A good boat to bring to Clayton, NY for the Vintage Event. Very few of the OPC boats have survived because of the super light construction and the materials used.
Nice break away steering too. :) Bebe Crum did some super woodworking for Billy Seebold. Nice boat!
Mark N

[Skeet 2]

I have a T3 with the 6 tillotson TC3B carbs and the heads or shaved and stamped .60 thou . from Mercury I also have a spare T 3 long block from Merc. it has the three 2 barrel carbs the heads are also milled .60 thou. from merc.They both have Alumn. flywheels and plastic reeds.The one with the TC3Bs is horizontal reeds and the three 2 barrels is vertical plastic reeds.

[Da Bull]

If you could post a pic of thatTillotson set up it would be great.

DB

[MercNuts]

When I have logged on prior to today I have not been able to see the pictures of the red hydro and T3 Merc. I have seen a lot of them in the hands of collectors and most are made up of parts with many incorrect components and details. That powerhead appears to be one of the most original from the outside of any I have seen. Many small details such as the enrichment solenoid location and plumbing get changed but that entire setup is just as delivered. It also appears to have the earlier starter and flywheel which would have been correct. We can't see the mid, but it should be 6 bolt. It also appears to have the last design SSM which would have been correct for this engine. If all is as it appears you have a very nice piece there.

Skeet, the 6 one barrel Tillotsens on the specific front block half with horizontal reeds were not actually a T3 piece. The only two intake configurations available from Mercury on the T3 were the Bendix mechanical injection which was impossible for 99% of the privateers to get, and the 3 two barrels pictured above (with the slosh tubes pictured going to the tops of the carbs being a later fix for blubbering in the corners) By the time the 6 Tillotsens were made availble Mercury had moved away from the T3/1750XS designation. I do not believe any complete engines ever left the factory with the 6 Tillotsen setup factory installed. I never saw one run on a 2 liter powerhead and think they were used almost exclusively on 2.4s on champ mids with VI gearcases.

12" mids were not referred to as champ back then. They were usually described as T3 even after they went 8 bolt.

Mark, I do not believe there were anywhere near the numbers you estimate of complete engines. Many racers bought mid sections and added production powerheads since they were virtually identical except for plastic reeds, aluminum flywheels and bolt on components. Early on the T3 as well as the production 1750 had issues with seizing pistons. As a result there were a number of piston revisions and it's not clear exactly when they would have been in the T3. Mercury was eating tons of 1750 production powerheads under warranty in 1976 and in many cases these went out the back door to smaller budget racers as primary and backup powerheads. A walk through the pits at both local and national races would show many so called T3 engines with black powerheads.

My estimate is that there may have been fewer than 50 complete T3/1750XS engines sold by the factory but certainly less than 100. There were also a number of T3 upgrade kits made to allow the racers who were running T2X setups to upgrade to the V6. Some were disappointed after considerable experience having their T2X setups perfected when bolting on the T3 didn't make a larger difference in performance.

I never saw a T3 on a factory boat at a race with any gearcase other than a SSM, however toward the end did see SSM's on boats with new style adapter plates for the new 8 bolt mid. I do not believe that a T3 was ever sold by Mercury with an 8 bolt mid with them dropping the T3/1750XS description in favor of "Formula" on the cowls. There was a VI type speedmaster advertised here that was 6 bolt configuration. By the time the factory boats had the new VI ahead of everyone else they were all 8 bolt and they had been running the 8 bolt mids with SSMs already. The one shown in that ad must have been a very rare factory prototype.

[T2x]

When I have logged on prior to today I have not been able to see the pictures of the red hydro and T3 Merc. I have seen a lot of them in the hands of collectors and most are made up of parts with many incorrect components and details. That powerhead appears to be one of the most original from the outside of any I have seen. Many small details such as the enrichment solenoid location and plumbing get changed but that entire setup is just as delivered. It also appears to have the earlier starter and flywheel which would have been correct. We can't see the mid, but it should be 6 bolt. It also appears to have the last design SSM which would have been correct for this engine. If all is as it appears you have a very nice piece there.

Skeet, the 6 one barrel Tillotsens on the specific front block half with horizontal reeds were not actually a T3 piece. The only two intake configurations available from Mercury on the T3 were the Bendix mechanical injection which was impossible for 99% of the privateers to get, and the 3 two barrels pictured above (with the slosh tubes pictured going to the tops of the carbs being a later fix for blubbering in the corners) By the time the 6 Tillotsens were made availble Mercury had moved away from the T3/1750XS designation. I do not believe any complete engines ever left the factory with the 6 Tillotsen setup factory installed. I never saw one run on a 2 liter powerhead and think they were used almost exclusively on 2.4s on champ mids with VI gearcases.

12" mids were not referred to as champ back then. They were usually described as T3 even after they went 8 bolt.

Mark, I do not believe there were anywhere near the numbers you estimate of complete engines. Many racers bought mid sections and added production powerheads since they were virtually identical except for plastic reeds, aluminum flywheels and bolt on components. Early on the T3 as well as the production 1750 had issues with seizing pistons. As a result there were a number of piston revisions and it's not clear exactly when they would have been in the T3. Mercury was eating tons of 1750 production powerheads under warranty in 1976 and in many cases these went out the back door to smaller budget racers as primary and backup powerheads. A walk through the pits at both local and national races would show many so called T3 engines with black powerheads.

My estimate is that there may have been fewer than 50 complete T3/1750XS engines sold by the factory but certainly less than 100. There were also a number of T3 upgrade kits made to allow the racers who were running T2X setups to upgrade to the V6. Some were disappointed after considerable experience having their T2X setups perfected when bolting on the T3 didn't make a larger difference in performance.

I never saw a T3 on a factory boat at a race with any gearcase other than a SSM, however toward the end did see SSM's on boats with new style adapter plates for the new 8 bolt mid. I do not believe that a T3 was ever sold by Mercury with an 8 bolt mid with them dropping the T3/1750XS description in favor of "Formula" on the cowls. There was a VI type speedmaster advertised here that was 6 bolt configuration. By the time the factory boats had the new VI ahead of everyone else they were all 8 bolt and they had been running the 8 bolt mids with SSMs already. The one shown in that ad must have been a very rare factory prototype.

I had the very first production carbureted 1750xs/T3 (which was a far cry from a true Bendix injected factory T3). Our motor was little more than a stock 175 Black Max with the racing fuel primer system installed and the various cowls and plastic air baffles removed (much like the motor ppictured). It was actually slower at top end then our latest (last) T2x powerheads on an identical hull during a controlled a/b comparison. Mercury quickly worked to increase the power output and RPM range and corrected this during the first 6 months or so. At the same time the new VI lowers were coming out to handle the increased power and speed.

The 6 carb front ends were fabricated by Doc Hledin (Peter's brother) up in Canada under the trade name "Machma". These appeared at a lot of races in the Mod U class about a year or two after the 1750xs was first introduced. I recall Mercury putting a few of them on some powerheads (certainly the Candian team did as Oley Berkis ran that setup on his Seebold). The power increase was about 15% over the 3 carbs as I recall but later tweaking may have upped that ante.

[MercNuts]

I had the very first production carbureted 1750xs/T3 (which was a far cry from a true Bendix injected factory T3). Our motor was little more than a stock 175 Black Max with the racing fuel primer system installed and the various cowls and plastic air baffles removed (much like the motor ppictured). It was actually slower at top end then our latest (last) T2x powerheads on an identical hull during a controlled a/b comparison. Mercury quickly worked to increase the power output and RPM range and corrected this during the first 6 months or so. At the same time the new VI lowers were coming out to handle the increased power and speed.

The 6 carb front ends were fabricated by Doc Hledin (Peter's brother) up in Canada under the trade name "Machma". These appeared at a lot of races in the Mod U class about a year or two after the 1750xs was first introduced. I recall Mercury putting a few of them on some powerheads (certainly the Candian team did as Oley Berkis ran that setup on his Seebold). The power increase was about 15% over the 3 carbs as I recall but later tweaking may have upped that ante.

Buck Thornton reported similar performance comparisons between the T2X and T3 and still had the tall boat cowl on his boat at St. Louis in 1976 in the event he wanted to run the T2X powerhead. Did you know there were two different front halves for the 6 Tillotsen setup? One was the bendix set up with a plate in the middle and the other was dedicated to the 6 carbs and would not be adaptable. Seebold, Benz and Reggie all ran the SSMs in 1975 and the VI in 1977. I dont remember what they ran in 1976 for sure. I think they were still with the SSMs on 8 bolt plates and mids.

[T2x]

Buck Thornton reported similar performance comparisons between the T2X and T3 and still had the tall boat cowl on his boat at St. Louis in 1976 in the event he wanted to run the T2X powerhead. Did you know there were two different front halves for the 6 Tillotsen setup? One was the bendix set up with a plate in the middle and the other was dedicated to the 6 carbs and would not be adaptable. Seebold, Benz and Reggie all ran the SSMs in 1975 and the VI in 1977. I dont remember what they ran in 1976 for sure. I think they were still with the SSMs on 8 bolt plates and mids.

I'm surprized that the Bendix front half would adapt to 6 carbs in any way as it was a single throttle body mounted vertically with air flowing downward into a sort of "toilet bowl" manifold.

[MercNuts]

I'm surprized that the Bendix front half would adapt to 6 carbs in any way as it was a single throttle body mounted vertically with air flowing downward into a sort of "toilet bowl" manifold.

An old worn out mind can play crazy tricks sometimes. I dug the front half I was speaking of out from under my workbench and 20 years of dirt. I said it backwards. This was a way that a Bendix was mounted to a 6 Tillotsen front. Think it was a adaptation made by a privateer? I doubt it. The slots are not machined, but rather cast, and sand cast rough. The adapters under the plate have a Mercury Part Number and I cant think of another application they would suit. This puts a question in my timeline of when the 6 Tillotsen front was first made and when and why it would have been modified for an injector. I may have not mentioned that I have a Bendix, a Tillotsen set up and this. When the bucks behind the racing effort that I helped with pulled the plug I was given a lot of old pieces to hang on the wall. They had a sign made for my toolbox that said "always a wrench, never a shoe". I still have it too. Pictures will follow in a few when my grandaughter shoots them and posts them with some of her newfangled technology.

Notice the bosses for the injector nozzles in the angled castings also. These are cast and not machined.

http://i46.tinypic.com/11tqviv.jpg</SPAN>
http://i50.tinypic.com/eh0qqr.jpg</SPAN>

[Vintage collector]

Thanks for all the input guys! Interesting stuff..

[Mark75H]

Wasn't there also a 6 carb set up made by Dick O'Dea?

[JWTjr.]

Wasn't there also a 6 carb set up made by Dick O'Dea?

There were a few guys/places that made a 6-carb crankcase cover setup for the earlier 2/2.4L Merc V6. O'Dea was one, Land & Sea another, I remember someone in Wisconsin also making one, and at least one more. It was a popular setup in the late 70s-early 80s if you were good enough to tune it.

John

[STEVERINO]

There were a few guys/places that made a 6-carb crankcase cover setup for the earlier 2/2.4L Merc V6. O'Dea was one, Land & Sea another, I remember someone in Wisconsin also making one, and at least one more. It was a popular setup in the late 70s-early 80s if you were good enough to tune it.

John
1975 outboard World Championship race in Cardiff Wales UK`before the race I saw a Johnson factory 2 litre engine having the carbs swopped from 3 two barrel carbs to 6 much larger carbs`i thought they looked much like the first factory T3 carbs set up.Barry Woods drove it on a Molinari hull.

[MercNuts]

If you could post a pic of thatTillotson set up it would be great.


http://i47.tinypic.com/2h84s5z.jpg</SPAN>
http://i50.tinypic.com/34rsl6c.jpg</SPAN>

[JWTjr.]

1975 outboard World Championship race in Cardiff Wales UK`before the race I saw a Johnson factory 2 litre engine having the carbs swopped from 3 two barrel carbs to 6 much larger carbs`i thought they looked much like the first factory T3 carbs set up.Barry Woods drove it on a Molinari hull.

Good memory and good stuff right there. The elusive 2L OMC race motor, stuff of mystery and legend, and "woulda shoulda coulda" discussions. How (many of us as well as I) wish they continued with that one instead of the 2.4L/2.6L crossflow.

JT

[Da Bull]

Thanks for the pics Mercnuts. There was one sold on this site some years ago. I hear it`s hanging on a wall someplace.
I have the Dick-O-Day and Land and Sea six carb intakes and just for fun will install the O-Day on my 2.5 just for our Rallys.

DB

[MercNuts]

I'm surprized that the Bendix front half would adapt to 6 carbs in any way as it was a single throttle body mounted vertically with air flowing downward into a sort of "toilet bowl" manifold.

Like this?
http://i47.tinypic.com/2vcthjs.png

[MercNuts]

Thanks for the pics Mercnuts. There was one sold on this site some years ago. I hear it`s hanging on a wall someplace.
I have the Dick-O-Day and Land and Sea six carb intakes and just for fun will install the O-Day on my 2.5 just for our Rallys.

DB

I heard there is a wall "somewhere" in Alabama that has 3 of those Tillotsen setups for V6, three more for inline 6 cylinder and 2 for inline 3cylinder. I also heard there was a Bendix on that wall and even some stacks. Those Alabama walls can grow some unusual things if they aint kept pruned.;)

[FUJIMO]

I heard there is a wall "somewhere" in Alabama that has 3 of those Tillotsen setups for V6, three more for inline 6 cylinder and 2 for inline 3cylinder. I also heard there was a Bendix on that wall and even some stacks. Those Alabama walls can grow some unusual things if they aint kept pruned.;)Is that wall pink....Floyd? Have a photo or two maybe?

[T2x]

Like this?
http://i47.tinypic.com/2vcthjs.png

That would be it....exactly as I remembered... Dr. Les Cahoon's early work. I bet that in 1975 no more than 30 people had ever seen that setup. (I saw it at Oshkosh, behind closed doors). That was the reason why the mechanics worked under canvas shrouds at races.

[MercNuts]

That would be it....exactly as I remembered... Dr. Les Cahoon's early work. I bet that in 1975 no more than 30 people had ever seen that setup. (I saw it at Oshkosh, behind closed doors). That was the reason why the mechanics worked under canvas shrouds at races.

Back in the day I was told that the system was designed for ultralight aircraft application and adapted to Merc. There was also a CCC or RS OMC with one at ST. Louis in 77 or 78. If you thought a glimpse of the Bendix was hard you should have tried to get under bottom cover they pulled up on the boat from underneath the first year they had brakes or behind the tarp to see the 3.4 race motor that everybody thought at first was a V8.

[STEVERINO]

Back in the day I was told that the system was designed for ultralight aircraft application and adapted to Merc. There was also a CCC or RS OMC with one at ST. Louis in 77 or 78. If you thought a glimpse of the Bendix was hard you should have tried to get under bottom cover they pulled up on the boat from underneath the first year they had brakes or behind the tarp to see the 3.4 race motor that everybody thought at first was a V8.
OCT 1977 `OMC Factory Brugge Belgium `Molinari had supplied new boats to OMC for the Paris 6hr race Ron Anderson and Freddi Haunstein were fitting Injection systems to all the Paris entries.We had raced boats with these engines from early 1977 but carbs only`the Paris entry i drove did pull a heavy fuel load well out of corners` 55us galls.After this race we were back to running carbs we were told by Paul Kalb head of OMC europe` inj gave no more power?The only outfit that stayed with inj was `Molinari`and `Herings.I would like to ask a question in 1977 the 2.4 omc outboards RS`CCC`could match and beat the 2.4 injection merc` on carbs they would kill them `one year later 1978 the 2.4inj mercs were way out in front maybe merc had sprint engines they sent to some races and marathon engines.The OMC engine i used was the same `untouched for 2yrs the only thing it killed was gearcases.I would like to know who did all the development work on the 2.4 mercs around this time to give credit where its due.

[Da Bull]

I would like to ask a question in 1977 the 2.4 omc outboards RS`CCC`could match and beat the 2.4 injection merc` on carbs they would kill them `one year later 1978 the 2.4inj mercs were way out in front maybe merc had sprint engines they sent to some races and marathon engines.The OMC engine i used was the same `untouched for 2yrs the only thing it killed was gearcases.



Sounds like OMC rested on their laurels for a few years and Merc was working to get ahead.

Then again maybe OMC was so involved in the process of developing the rotary or V-8 that they forgot all about competing with the V-6.

One thing`s certain, Things were so secretetive back then we may never know.

DB

[Mark75H]

Jim Nerstrom contributes relevant info on that time period on a regular basis on BRF ... we know

[T2x]

Sounds like OMC rested on their laurels for a few years and Merc was working to get ahead.

Then again maybe OMC was so involved in the process of developing the rotary or V-8 that they forgot all about competing with the V-6.

One thing`s certain, Things were so secretetive back then we may never know.

DB

This was years after the rotary ceased racing.......

[milkdud]

Question to clarify something for me. Is a T2x mid/lower the same as the T3? Can a T2x L6 block be lifted off and and a T3 V block be added?

Thanks
Conrad

[Mark75H]

Yes. The V-6 bolts right onto the mid, the T2-X uses an adapter on the same mid.

The mid was clearly made for the V-6. Norris says this is because the V-6 was made first, I say its because they were planning on the V-6 but it was far from ready yet and they wanted to give the advantage of the up/down mid to equal the OMC up/down mid without making a special one for the inline. Side benefit became the less expensive upgrade to V-6 powerhead for racers that already had this mid.

[milkdud]

Its interesting to hear that the initial 1750 block was possibly slower than a good T2X. Either the T2x was pumping well over 175 hp or the weight penalty of the heavier block was detrimental. Or both.

Thanks

[Mark75H]

The 2X was well over 175 and the V-6 had teething pains

[BVfast]

I would sure like to see this thread continue on, it was the best I have seen on rare induction systems. I hope we can see more of the bendix and airflow research mechanical injection, along with the belt drive stuff also. It would also be great to see the many different multiple carb set-ups. I will try to get pics of what I have posted as soon as possible. Lets not keep this only on the Mercs.

[mark benson]

Thanks,Sam, for confirming my HP ratings!
The 2X was well over 175 and the V-6 had teething pains