Lookin' for input

[T2x]

We are debating the power plants to be used on the wing. Since the people who have truly period engines either don't want to sell them..... or actually run them. I am looking at a bunch of options.

I have two 150 horse inline engines with long shaft housings. I can mount the powerheads on either:

Current F-1 12" housings and put #4 SSM's (counter rotatable) on the back.......or

Current offshore 15" housings and #4's as above.

The boat will be "period compromised" but at least it will run and give nice photo ops etc.

Frankly, the process of trying to ferret out proper midsections is starting to get old.

Anybody have any other suggestions?

T2x

[heath brinkley]

can they shorten a I6 mid section.:confused:
like they do the V-6 mids.

That would seem like the easiest way.

[Raceman]

Here's my thinkin': (for what little it's worth) I like the inline 1500 powerhead choice. I also like the champ housing idea. I think the older SSM's would look more inplace on the wing, and certainly more economical from a current value and availability of prop standpoint. If there's a practical way to run #4's under a right rotation powerhead, I was unable to find it in trying to do the same thing with the 300 drag on my yellow STV. I talked with Steckbauer, Bill Gohr, and Brenden Power and wasn't able to find a way. Apperently there's an internal gear in these units that isn't straight cut and the units won't work with a R rotation powerhead without changing this gear, which is no longer availble from Merc, or findable used for that matter.

The think I don't like about the 15" current offshore housings is the weight and also the fact that unlike the 12" champ mid, adapting will be nighmarish with the plate on the 15" housing being about 3" thick and unadaptable to the exhaust configuration of the inline, not to mention all of the bolt pattern but the front 4.

The 12" housings, especially the old style are relatively cheap and plentiful. They're also light and strong. The powerhead is easily adaptable. The only potential drawbacks I can think of are the shortness, which shouldn't create problems with the flotation of the wing at the rear, and the fact that you'll have to pop a hole through the transom for the trim cyl's.

I'd think as a third option you could look around and find some 15" mids for the 1500's. Seems like I run across 1 or 2 a year at reasonable prices, and that solves a lot of problems. The old 15" T2 mid would be a nice option also, but I can't remember the last time I saw one for sale. They're probably the rarest of the bunch.

Sounds like you're gettin' to the post more pictures stage.

[Raceman]

Heath, to shorten the mid would require finding a shortshaft style swivel bracket, or either the standard one from an old 3 cyl longshaft engine which would probably adaptable to a whacked mid. That'd probably be more trouble than just finding 15" inline mids complete. I've gotten 3 off E Bay in the last several years. You just have to be sure that they're 73 and newer (or 72 1400) because there are a lot of old style ones around with the wrong bolt pattern.

[T2x]

Originally posted by Raceman
Here's my thinkin': (for what little it's worth) I like the inline 1500 powerhead choice. I also like the champ housing idea. I think the older SSM's would look more inplace on the wing, and certainly more economical from a current value and availability of prop standpoint. If there's a practical way to run #4's under a right rotation powerhead, I was unable to find it in trying to do the same thing with the 300 drag on my yellow STV. I talked with Steckbauer, Bill Gohr, and Brenden Power and wasn't able to find a way. Apperently there's an internal gear in these units that isn't straight cut and the units won't work with a R rotation powerhead without changing this gear, which is no longer availble from Merc, or findable used for that matter.

The think I don't like about the 15" current offshore housings is the weight and also the fact that unlike the 12" champ mid, adapting will be nighmarish with the plate on the 15" housing being about 3" thick and unadaptable to the exhaust configuration of the inline, not to mention all of the bolt pattern but the front 4.

The 12" housings, especially the old style are relatively cheap and plentiful. They're also light and strong. The powerhead is easily adaptable. The only potential drawbacks I can think of are the shortness, which shouldn't create problems with the flotation of the wing at the rear, and the fact that you'll have to pop a hole through the transom for the trim cyl's.

I'd think as a third option you could look around and find some 15" mids for the 1500's. Seems like I run across 1 or 2 a year at reasonable prices, and that solves a lot of problems. The old 15" T2 mid would be a nice option also, but I can't remember the last time I saw one for sale. They're probably the rarest of the bunch.

Sounds like you're gettin' to the post more pictures stage.

Thank you Raceman , Somehow I knew you'd come through.....
The newer 12' housing (current) has the added advantage of external trim and no transom hole..... after chizeling out the entire rear of the boat, believe me the less wood you remove the better off you'll be in terms of strength in the future.

As far as the #4's Fred Hauenstein claims there is a standard counter rotation version available. I know we had lefts and rights to choose from based on course direction during my last years of racing tunnels

It is amazing how few parts are available for motors that were certainly quite common.....and not THAT long ago.

You are correct it is picture time and we have an assortment to post shortly.

Thanks...and if you come across something let me know.

T2x

[heath brinkley]

thanks for the answer Raceman, wasn't sure if it would work or not.

[Powercat]

T2x
I know I am a little out of my league here on this discussion of what parts fit which bracket to which motor... But to me the whole idea is to see the Wing fly again!! A lot of people, myself included, would be thrilled with seeing what your boat would do with modern power. After all its a "hot rod" and you know you are never going to have it match down to any of the original configurations as a true restoration. I will have to admit that the whole matching serial #'s game is lost on me.... Don't get it and never will.... To me, it just turns you into a stamp collector with more money to spend !!!
I would think that running a pair of SST120 or Champ motors with powerheads on the conservative side would put the Wing into its "correct attitude" The motors would live without being pushed too hard, and you would be able to realize the true potential of the hull design.. Which, I was wondering, does yours have the adjustment flap for the wing section? Seems that was the key to getting the boat to perform to its limits.....
I guess my thoughts on this subject come from knowing what people who ran these boats in their day would do if they were trying to develop a race boat today... and I am just a hot rodder at heart with a "run what ya' brung" attitude to having fun.
Just my 2 cents worth...
Danny Leger

Originally posted by T2x

The boat will be "period compromised" but at least it will run and give nice photo ops etc.
Frankly, the process of trying to ferret out proper midsections is starting to get old.
Anybody have any other suggestions?
T2x

[ggarland]

Gentlemen:

Once you two mechanical geniuses get the details of the build worked out, how about the cosmetics of those two bad boys?

How about a "resto" styling job, period cowls and decals hiding all the go faster tech that you will have? Sort of like some of the restomod street machines you see nowadays, period looks with modern mechanicals. It would be a bit of work, but just imagine if you will the results.

Early BP styling perhaps? Or 1963 Phantom six, with all that chrome and killer good looks? 75H clone? Cloud White and licorice 850 inline six, the stack from Fon du Lac!! I am getting excited here!!!!

George :D :D :D :D

[heath brinkley]

I'm with Powercat,

If you built a 55 chevy would you stick a 265 with powerpack heads in it or a 502 with efi.

period correct is cool but to a limit. but hook some power up to that thing.

Maybe a couple short shaft V-6's with the cowlings painted like a old mark 75. red on top and bottom, airbrushed in the middle to simulate ribbed chrome, white mid and lower, and mark 75H decals in the proper place.

just tell me to shut my pie hole, but keep us posted on the progress.

[ggarland]

Heath:

Good one. I like your airbrush idea on the V6. I might try to create some ideas in Photoshop to see what they look like. Keep the juices and ideas flowing, man!! This is what is needed, input of all kinds, no matter what you think that others may say! And you are right about the shoebox Chivvie.

Nothing shrinks time and distance like cubic inches and a good induction system! Cheers.


George

[heath brinkley]

I like doing that with cars.
I know what you mean about period specific.
I'm putting a early chrysler hemi in a '41 willys.
the '67 nova I'm working on now has a 400 sbc to replace the little brother, BUT I found a Smokey Yunick intake and some magnesium M/T finned valve covers with donovan breathers. Alumicoated headers instead of ceramic coated. Powder coated american torque thrusts, you get the idea, period correct LOOK with the advantage of modern power beneath.

I took a V-6 clam shell and painted it to match the first black 50 horse merc. the one that said - 50hp mercury four -
I want to do my early BP cowl like a XS with 2500 on it instead of 1500. Ronnie beat me to it with a alien cowl.
stuff like that looks cool, and somewhat nostalgic. but you have mucho power.

Look at the front of a drag car and you can see what I mean about the chrome. they can paint it to look like it's ribbed, just like the mark 75 cowl.

Good Luck, can't wait to see it no matter what you do.
Heath.

[heath brinkley]

instead of.. 50 hp MERCURY four

mine said 200hp MERCURY six.

[ggarland]

Heath:

I should not post this picture here, Sam will kill me, but here goes anyway. Is this what yours will look like? The Gasser look is my favorite on a Willys, shades of the 60's !! This one has an early 394 Hemi in it too, I scanned the picture from an old issue, thought you might like a look.


George

:cool:

[T2x]

Interesting.......Joey Imprescia wants me to put two of those new retro merc anniversary engines on the boat......... Sounds like a few of you approve.... I'd rather run 2 liter champ motors...but there's no way the old hull will survive a full power pass with a pair of those babies on her butt.

Powercat:...... The aeleron is missing but it is pretty clear where it was and how big..so we will make a pretty close approximation..... the (plywood!!!!) foot operated bellcrank and cables are still in the pile...but I've already decided we're going hydraulic on the aeleron controls.

As an aside I raced in and against a few of your dad's boats back in the day....and the 15 foot Power Cat we ran had a tunnel tab actuated by a hand operated hydraulic porta power...... sound familiar?

T2x

[clampon]

how about a pair of chryslers i have two short mids and 7 brand new speedmasters for this set up you can run a cdi 125 force mill head and if it is 1985 or earlier the stacks will fit and i also have those i ran the set up on a 16 allison 125 1x1 gear 9x5 16 and ran 78mph and it was slow geting there but i smoked the fat boy in his ranger with a xr4 and he could not belive it happened i will sell all for 2000 if you go to a dealer they will give you all the force **** you can hall off clampon or damhydro @aol.com

[heath brinkley]

All the same chrome he has.
BLACK as the ace of spades.
sittin on the ground. (although my Dad wanted me to run it with a staight axel)
same period correct wheels as him, only polished 15x10 and 15x 4.5. M/T 29-15.50-15

The hemi's gettin' a blower and four port hilborn inj. with the hiborn scoop.:)

My dad has a '39 four door willy's that he's probably gonna' sell when he's done with it. Depending on price and how it turns out I may buy it to use as a tow car. Maybe transplant a bone stock early hemi in it. How cool would that be showin' up at a car show with a four door willy's pullin' a willys coupe.

[Powercat]

Originally posted by T2x
......... Sounds like a few of you approve.... I'd rather run 2 liter champ motors...but there's no way the old hull will survive a full power pass with a pair of those babies on her butt.
Powercat:...... The aeleron is missing but it is pretty clear where it was and how big..so we will make a pretty close approximation..... the (plywood!!!!) foot operated bellcrank and cables are still in the pile...but I've already decided we're going hydraulic on the aeleron controls.
As an aside I raced in and against a few of your dad's boats back in the day....and the 15 foot Power Cat we ran had a tunnel tab actuated by a hand operated hydraulic porta power...... sound familiar?
T2x
Yep, I remember going with my dad to the aircraft junk yards out by LAX to buy the hydralic cylinders and aluminum scrap that he made the first ones from.. Photos follow of one of the 15's I found with the afterplane intact... This guy won't sell the boat to me though:(

[Powercat]

Here is the pump ram... Single seat steering dual ride guide and still has the racing numbers on the side.....

[heath brinkley]

still has the old gauges and the emblem on the dash. cool.

Is that grease gun beside the seat what you used to control the trim tab on back ???

[Powercat]

Originally posted by heath brinkley
still has the old gauges and the emblem on the dash. cool.

Is that grease gun beside the seat what you used to control the trim tab on back ???
Yep, and with twin engines on hand throttles you are adjusting
the speed, jacking the afterplane and steering through the corners and trying to keep from running into the guy next to you doing the same thing !!! Made for some exciting racing to say the least !! :D :D

[heath brinkley]

:eek:

too bad the guy won't sellthe boat, looks like another one lost to time.

[Powercat]

T2x
Back on your Wing ....
My thoughts on the 2 liter Champ motors was to run
mild powerheads and to not push the boat beyond
its design limits, It would be the simplest, most cost
efective way of getting the boat to perform... I think
your idea of using hydralics on the aeleron is a good
idea, would give smoother control. In reading the
account of Switzer running one of the early versions
it sounded like they had to adjust it gradually as speed
increased and also as they slowed down to keep from
having a violent landing if lift was cut too quickly..,,,
Don't know if you need some photos of one of the
aeleron's but the boat Dick Davis has still has the
one on it and he would probably shoot some photos
if you would need them..
Danny Leger

Originally posted by T2x
Interesting.......Joey Imprescia wants me to put two of those new retro merc anniversary engines on the boat......... Sounds like a few of you approve.... I'd rather run 2 liter champ motors...but there's no way the old hull will survive a full power pass with a pair of those babies on her butt.

Powercat:...... The aeleron is missing but it is pretty clear where it was and how big..so we will make a pretty close approximation..... the (plywood!!!!) foot operated bellcrank and cables are still in the pile...but I've already decided we're going hydraulic on the aeleron controls.
T2x

[T2x]

Danny:

That manual tab is identical to the hardware we ran on a 15 Power cat..... right down to the "grease gun". Is that Dave Habay's old boat in the pictures?

T2x

[Powercat]

I don't know the name of the racer who ran it> Its parked
in a back yard up by one of the lakes outside of Dallas,
and as you can see from this photo it was numbered
"22" and has TX registration numbers on the hull.

Originally posted by T2x
Danny:

That manual tab is identical to the hardware we ran on a 15 Power cat..... right down to the "grease gun". Is that Dave Habay's old boat in the pictures?

T2x

[Bruster]

of your 1500 Merc powerheads on short mids with SSM's. Paint them to look like 1250 BP's or whatever Merc is correct for the boat. Just use a ton of detail on every nut and bolt, make the motors perfect. Easy to do, but not to easy to do right.

[Dave S]

Hey T2X, you are too late. This past year I sold two T2 exhaust housings. Bad timing :( I will try to get in touch with somebody. In the meantime, any one want 2 REAL nice 1960 Merc 800s? Fresh water , in storage since forever with counter rotating speed masters,with 5/16 shear pins. Be good for some old race boat.:cool: I don't want to seperate the motors/ lowers:rolleyes: I hope that NO ONE gets mad about me posting this here, but it would be a wast in the motors for sale placey:) They make REAL nice bookends, for your wifes cook books:rolleyes:

[clampon]

do the chryslers with quickes and be done with it

[Dave S]

That would be good but T REX has all the chisler parts in the world,and there are none other left. Really I wonder how those lowers you have would be under a V6 ? I don't think too many people on this board like old Kriselers.:D

[Raceman]

Dave, what d'ya want for the 800's and where are they?

[T2x]

Originally posted by Dave S
Hey T2X, you are too late. This past year I sold two T2 exhaust housings. Bad timing :( I will try to get in touch with somebody. In the meantime, any one want 2 REAL nice 1960 Merc 800s? Fresh water , in storage since forever with counter rotating speed masters,with 5/16 shear pins. Be good for some old race boat.:cool: I don't want to seperate the motors/ lowers:rolleyes: I hope that NO ONE gets mad about me posting this here, but it would be a wast in the motors for sale placey:) They make REAL nice bookends, for your wifes cook books:rolleyes:

That is the problem......... Too late. I have no idea where all the antique stuff is going...... but It isn't on display at the APBA Antique events. I know, for instance of a guy in Dayton Ohio with three fully rigged Wings..... He shows them to no one.....speaks cryptically.....and toys with the idea of "maybe selling one....... but I have so much stuff"......

What's the point? I understand the concepts of collecting, displaying, and trading...everything from antiques, baseball cards, outboards etc....... but "finding and hoarding" is assinine.

IMHO.

T2x

[T2x]

Originally posted by clampon
how about a pair of chryslers i have two short mids and 7 brand new speedmasters for this set up you can run a cdi 125 force mill head and if it is 1985 or earlier the stacks will fit and i also have those i ran the set up on a 16 allison 125 1x1 gear 9x5 16 and ran 78mph and it was slow geting there but i smoked the fat boy in his ranger with a xr4 and he could not belive it happened i will sell all for 2000 if you go to a dealer they will give you all the force **** you can hall off clampon or damhydro @aol.com

Thanks Clampon..... but no thanks..... This boat will be Phantom Black....... with a big Kiekhaefer Emblem prominently displayed on the wing section. I'm afraid I bleed Mercury black when cut.

T2x

[heath brinkley]

Damn T2X, with that description you need to get busy posting some pictures. Sounds SSSSSweeeeet !!!!

[Backfire]

That good stuff should have a Walther or Culver connection. In the '70s, Old man Walther and son "Salt" had a hanger full of planes, boats, cars, and God knows what all. Wonder if it is still there? I think they saved everything they ever owned. Salt's ride to high school was a blown 327, all steel T-Bucket.
Backfire ;)