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thovind1
07-23-2003, 10:13 PM
This may cause some guys' eyes to roll a bit, but I jsut took on the job of restoring a 1977 17' tri-hull bassboat, having never driven a boat in my life, and I'm trying to research what it takes to restore a transom. Well, I've really found a wealth of information here, but I do need someone to explain to me where exactly things like the splashwell, stringer, ect. are located on a boat. As embarrassing as it is to ask this question to you huys, I really have to know eventually.

Also, I see a lot of projects being documented, but I really have no idea how much it costs (estimated, of course) to take this on. It looks straightforward enough to do, but fundingwise I'd like to know how much I need to have.

One other thing...not busting anyone's balls, because without these documented projects I'd really be lost, trust me...but it would be nice, from a newbie standpoint, to hear EXACTLY what tools and materials are being used for all the wood laminating and building the glass molds that go into these projects. Thanks tons for all the help.

thovind1
07-23-2003, 10:29 PM
Also, what's the outer skin? And the jack plate? I'll get all of this down yet!!

Superdave
07-24-2003, 01:36 AM
What kind of bassboat? Some didn't have a splashwell. The splashwell is in the back of the boat where the motor mounts. It's normally a place for water that would/could come over the transom when stopping. Best advice is if you can remove it...do so.. it only collects water and lets it seep into the motor mount bolst a rottening the transom. The stringers are the long braces that run the lenght of the boat. Usually cover by some type of floor. They look like 2 by 4's on edge to help reduce flex on the hull. As far as cost, it depends on how much you need. I found a local boat repair shop and went over and talked to the guys. They were very helpful as long as you don't get in their way. I also was able to purchase most of my supplies from them. Otherwise I would have to buy in bulk and had no use for that amount. I have a good set of pics here
Transom (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/superdave37076/lst?.dir=/&.src=bc&.view=l)
BMAC has a good thread here also.
Dave

Bob T
07-24-2003, 01:40 AM
Call McGraw-Hill Publishers 1-800-262-4729.Ask them to send you'Runabout Renovations-How To Fix Up An OldFiberglass Speedboat'by JimAnderson copyright 1992.It will tell you everything you need to know to totally restore your boat,from tools to material to all the techniques necessary.I replaced my transom ,stringers and floor using this book .It's easy to follow and worked out very well for me .This was my first major fiberglas project,I saved a TON of $$$ ,learned a lot and can look smart to all my boat buddies..unusual for me.BT

thovind1
07-24-2003, 01:42 AM
Here's a pic of the boat...tomorrow I'll take the camera out and take better pictures of specific problem areas. Thanks for your help.

thovind1
07-24-2003, 01:42 AM
Another pic...

thovind1
07-24-2003, 01:45 AM
Bob T...I'll be doing that, definitely. Does it get specific with what substances to use?

Bob T
07-24-2003, 02:12 AM
There are three method to attaching the deck and hull.A shoe box fit with the top fitting over the hull like a shoe book ..duh,A butt fitt where the deck and hullsit directly on top of one anotherbeing glassed in place frombehind and a flange fit were flanges ,like full length tabs resting on each other and are held in place by the rub rail.You first need to determine which type yuo have .From your pictures it looks likea flange fit to me .the only way to know it to see if you can loosen some of you rub rail and take a look to see what you have>some will tell you to cut off the back fiber glaass piece to access the transom but you must feel confident to glass it back in place.THEN you have to paint the thing to make it look decent.Better to split the deck from the hull. You,ll have easy accessto do the work and the original'bodywork'whenyour done with no need to paint it.Get the book..BT ps He tells you what yuouneed to know a to z

thovind1
07-24-2003, 02:22 AM
Thanks, Bob T, for the help...yeah, I do have the flange type. I did look behind the rub rail yesterday, and it appears that there are screws? I didn't look all that well, though...they may very well be the rivets everyone else speaks of. I just didn't know how to put it all back on...if I'd need a new piece of rubber for the rail, or whatever. I guess it would probably be self-explanatory once I set about taking the cap off. For all I know, there may be more than just the transom that needs to be worked on, although the floor seems very solid. I do need to take off the cap, if for no other reason than to scrape the old carpet off of the floor. The old owner recarpeted the floor by taking the cap off, rather than fitting it to the floor, so there is a lot of rotting carpet underneath the cap.

Techno
07-24-2003, 04:54 PM
This is an online book about composites. It should help but your going to need to do a lot of wading.
http://www.marinecomposites.com/
Stringers front to back. Frames side to side. Skins thats what the frames are supporting and being bridged by. The hull is a skin.
Or the skin could be one side of a cored material. A cored material is like corrugated card board. The corragation is the core which is seperating the 2 skins. If these were sandwiched together like plywood would be much weaker. The cores can be honeycomb, which not many people use, or balsa wood, coring foam, even plywood is a coring material.
If you've seen a boat being built or a plane you can see this frame work and skin deal.
Knees are stringers on styroids. They reach a greater distance up the transom and further along the stringers. Some boats don't have transom knees.
There was a glossary on the main page but I think it was lost in the shuffle.

A camera
A book.
Tools. A right angle grinder is nice for cutting glass apart and fast rough sanding later. $20 from harbour freight.
A supplied air hood is nice for sanding fiber glass but is only an issue if your going to need one later for painting. if you do, get it now. Too expensive otherwise.
A drill for all kinds of stuff. Holesaws drills screws for fastening and clamping.
Clamps, wait until you need them to buy them though.
A saw of some kind.
Finishing sander of somekind. They have cheap ones that work just as good as $$$ ones. Saves lots of time. Random orbit is nicer than jitter bug.
A tyvek suit and dust mask or respirator for sanding fiberglass. Dont' take this lightly. Do whatever you can to seal off from this aggravating itchy stuff. You may have heard the term "itchies" mentioned. It's just like the fiberglass insulation if youv'e ever done that been there. Sanding is blowing it all around though.

Plastic cups, pans, Nitrile gloves (kind of disposable glove) cheap paint brushes- rollers. A laminating roller. Looks like a roller with grooves. Solvent. sand paper. Mixing sticks- popsicle sticks or reusable ones.
Plastic sheet or wax paper has a use.
Some of the stuff can be re-used and be stuff like potato chip containers. A dog is usefull for cleaning them for you.( the dip not the resin)

Large quantities of resin and glass. Buying large is cheaper.
A qt of resin times 4 is much more expensive than a gallon.
For glass getting it from a real supplier is cheaper too. Larger quantities get a price break. Marinas and auto store plastic bag mat and cloth are about 3x the cost than off the roll or in bulk.

Get some and practice first. Throw some money away on just laying some glass down and using up some resin. The learning curve is real fast. It's easy to do and little tricks come easily.
Don't mix large quantities, mix small many times. A few ounces rather than a glass full.

The camera is needed for looking back on because you won't really remember it all. Not for the job itself but just for a WOW I did that!? You can also share them here too. Others have some pictures up so this is a good way to see whats happening.

thovind1
07-24-2003, 05:19 PM
Techno...that helps a lot. I am at an unfortunate disadvantage, as I find myself in a modular home park right now....they're giving me crap about the boat even being on the lot, let alone working on it on the lot. Seems that I need to find another place to do all of this so that I can get started. May just put it off until winter. At least that gives me time to come up with a detailed plan as to how to do this, though. Thank all of you...you've already been a big help. I plan on taking detailed pictures of my problem areas later today, so that I can post them and maybe get some specific help...I tried to do it earlier today, but my batteries died. Figures.

Bob T
07-24-2003, 06:14 PM
Be very careful removing the rub rail unless you have a replacement in your hands. It may be impossible to find a replacement. Also ,if you decide to do the floor and transom don't remove them at the same time! Your hull will sag and it will be difficult /impossible to refit your deck.For the same reason ,I would not remove the deck until you're ready to start. If nothing else,listen to'Techno' ,he knows.BT

Techno
07-25-2003, 05:37 PM
Thinking if one of those storage places would be an out? Store it and work on it.
Don't know what they cost though.

thovind1
07-25-2003, 06:11 PM
That crossed my mind too...I'll have to check into it. I wouldn't think they'd let people use the units as workshops, but we'll see. I'd only have to rent it for a month or so.

thovind1
07-26-2003, 03:36 PM
I finally got some detailed pics taken, although they're not as good as I wanted, because it was raining. I didn't wanna take the cover off all the way. These should really help out in my quest for answers here. I'm pretty stoked about getting help from all of you here...I really am comfident that I can get this boat looking good now.

This first photo is the worst of the bunch, only because it's blurry...I took the picture too close. But I think it still shows the problem. If not, it's no big deal to go out and retake. This shows the gouges on the bottom of the hull...can I just fill these in?

thovind1
07-26-2003, 03:40 PM
This shows the gouges in the cap...I don't know if you can see that the fibers in the glass are showing. What about these...can I fill these in as well? What specific compound would be best for doing these gouges?

thovind1
07-26-2003, 03:44 PM
Here's another pic of the gouges in the cap

thovind1
07-26-2003, 03:46 PM
This is a better representation of the black spots I'm speaking of...do you think this stuff will come up with sanding?

thovind1
07-26-2003, 03:47 PM
I've also got these small hairline cracks all over the hull...I can just grind these out?

thovind1
07-26-2003, 03:48 PM
Another pic of the cracks...while these in the pics are all underneath the motor on the hull, they're on the underside all over as well.

thovind1
07-26-2003, 03:50 PM
And finally, the dreaded transom...this is the transom itself. The wood isn't visually rotting yet...but the glass layer is coming completely off. It does look wet, so maybe its best to replace it? It's not splintering, but maybe its just a matter of time?

thovind1
07-26-2003, 03:53 PM
This is the last pic I have...it shows the battery shelves. I don't know if youd call these the knees? I'm lifting the fiberglass layer up to show where you can see that it's all coming up around the corners. Again, though, the wood is still solid...I don't feel any soft spots, and it doesn't bow when I press on it. Maybe I'm just trying to get out of having to do this? Or can I actually get away with just resealing the existing wood?

thovind1
07-26-2003, 03:54 PM
Again...thanks for all of your help. I almost feel guilty, getting all of this quality advice and not having to pay.

Superdave
07-26-2003, 04:19 PM
is SOLID and DRY. You might try this.

woodrot (http://www.rotdoctor.com/)

I used a similar product I bought at Lowe's. I used it on a seat pedestal on a bassboat. It worked. Turned hard as a rock!
Dave

thovind1
07-26-2003, 04:54 PM
Man, you may have just saved my butt..I've gotta take that cap off anyway, to get rid of all the rotted carpeting on the deck. I'll be able to better tell the state of all the wood then. But upon first inspection, the wood looks wet...but it may look like that even when it's dry, because of the sealant. It's been years since this boat has even been in the water, and it's been stored in a warehouse...so maybe the wood is ok. Let's hope so.

Techno
07-27-2003, 12:02 AM
A simple check of the wood is to stick it with something. Good wood won't let it penetrate much- bad wood well you can see that.
Knife, screw driver, awl.
Put a straight edge on the bottom to see if it is bowed up or down is a simple check.
A more severe check is to use the OB as a lever while trimmed up and yank it up and down. The transom shouldn't flex.
Tightening up the bolts might squoosh the wood too.

The little dings and chips aren't hard to fix if thats all they are, jsut the gel chipped off. You can put a couple layers of gel on it With the gelcoat you might be able to match the color. It's a thickend resin in a can. Called gelcoat. Just brush or dab it on the sanded spot. Sand it flush. They sell dyes to color it.

The spider crack on the transom looks like an impact so probably isn't bad. It's got a center and radiates out from it like something hit the center. The glass flexs while the gel don't. Like ice on plastic. Just like that though if the plastic flexed enough it would be broke too.
The ones on the bottom might be bad though. This is where the water is doing it's work and you don't want glass failure here.
Either way you should grind the cracks down and refill with gel or filler. If the crack goes into the glass, the glass looks white like a crack, then you have to bevel that out and lay cloth in.

Those horizontal ones though look like they were caused by flexing internaly. Like flexing a beer can. The transom? Just a guess but they follow the bottom pretty well and in between go every which a way. Also under that mount. Could be something inside that banged it?
You can look at the cracks on the bottom and kind of detective why they are there. Maybe hit rocks or the hull is flexing.

BTW those are stringers. Don't think you have transom knees. The one picture of the inside of the transom shows something to the left. If this is a support from floor to transom thats one.

thovind1
07-27-2003, 12:10 AM
Techno...will you marry me? Just kidding, but you are an awesome help. I do thank you. I'm gonna borrow my father's garage starting tomorrow...so I'll be able to dig into it really soon. I'm sure you'll be able to follow along with the results, because I'll have lots of questions for you all anyway.

BTW...techno...what's your opinion on the stuff Superdave recommended? Any experience with it? I'll definitely be checking the wood tomorrow.

Techno
07-27-2003, 08:49 AM
It's extremely thin resin. It works great when you can use it.
Like he said if the wood is still good then thats all you need to do.
That and reglass it.

I used it a long time ago on my brothers boat. Under the dash pounding with a hammer when a bazillion ants came rushing out. Smallish space so you can imagine my panic.

I hooked up a vacuum pump to the transom to suck the water out. Ran it a week and no more water. Drilled holes way up front on the stringers and stuck a couple funnels in. Kept pouring.

The strange story on this boat he eventually donated it.
A couple years after I bought my house this same boat with the same giant inline was sitting a few houses down.
It came back to haunt me!!:eek:

thovind1
07-27-2003, 03:51 PM
Yep..wouldn't ya know it...the wood is bad on the one stringer, where you can see me lifting the glass in the picture. The transom also should be replaced. Darned it...so much for gettin off easy. Now, I got some studying to do.

Superdave
07-27-2003, 09:20 PM
Good Info
fiberglass repair (http://www.fiberglass-repair.com/)
Dave

thovind1
07-29-2003, 12:43 AM
Well, I got the boat into my father's garage, and, as I thought would happen, he's trying to talk me out of doing this the right way. He doesn't think we should have to take the cap off unless we absolutely have to. His reasoning is that the motor, with the tilt/ trim hydraulics and everything that goes with it, would be too difficult to dismount, and he seems to think that the cap will never line up once we try to put it back on. He seems to think that we could just add another piece of wood over the transom the way it is right now, and it'll be fine, because although he admits to the presence of rot on the inside wall of the transom, there is no bending of the wood if he tries to lift the motor up in its upright position.

I disagree totally with this half-assedness...I don't think it'll work at all. But I do need some help with this project...and to recruit him, I need his support in doing this the right way. I try to tell him that from my homework, I really don't think it's THAT hard of a job to tackle. That site that Superdave pointed me towards should have everything I need as far as resins and epoxys. He's not convinced that this job takes less than a year to do.

So please tell me...for the sake of telling me...his idea isn't solid at all. Or is it? And tell me again that anyone is capable of pulling this off, if they do their homework. I'm looking for some encouragement here. Help me out, would ya??

Reese
07-29-2003, 10:35 AM
but I tend to agree with your dad.

Everyone here is telling you how to fix this thing the right way...but sometimes the right way ain't always the best way. It really depends on how much you love this boat and how long you realistically plan on keeping her.

I didn't read the entire thread but if you plan on sanding and patching you probably will need to paint or gel...good paint ain't cheap...up to $200 per gallon.

Just keep in mind that ripping out that wood and repairing, patching and painting isn't a weekend project...good luck with whatever you decide to do.

CrayzKirk
07-29-2003, 05:17 PM
Hi,

Try looking at some of the stuff on www.rotdoctor.com (http://www.rotdoctor.com) . Lots of good ideas. One is to cut the cap off the transom and drill holes into the wood. Existing members can be strengthened with resin (epoxy or other). Drying out the existing wood is the most important step.

I tore apart my boat and replaced everything. It took a long time and was a real mess. A good book is Runabout Renovation. He describes how to do everything. I used epoxy and spent way more than I needed to.

Lots of stuff out there on the net. You don't have to do a full teardown to get it serviceable. A couple of helpers will make pulling the motor off a lot easier. It will weigh in at about 250lbs...

Good Luck!

Kirk

Techno
07-29-2003, 10:55 PM
I have to totally disagree with a glue a new chunk of wood on.
This area of the boat is probably the most highly stressed part on the boat. It ties the sides and bottom together while transmitting all the force from the engine into the boat to propel it.
Then there is the matter of stringers that may need to be replaced.

If you picture a picture window that is shattered but still in place can you imagine gluing a new unbroken window onto the shattered one? What holds the new one in place? Nothing. The same holds for the rotted transom, what is holding the new one in place?
The only thing difficult about this is it's all new and unkown.
The entire Outboard comes off as a single unit. Thats the huge advatage of an OB, they come off with 4 bolts! I can't think of anything difficult about it. The trim hoses are disconnected and the pump removed to provide access. Throttle and shift both have an easy disconnect. The wiring harness plugs on. Your going to be removing everthing from the back of the boat regardless of how the transom is repaired. Even worse is putting a slab of plywood around the engine is going to do nothing except stress the existing transom more and add weight. The rotted transom now would have to support the new wood patch not the other way around.

Lifting up on an extremely heavy OB isn't going to deflect the transom. Trying to rip the OB off the transom is the only way to test it's stength this way. You have to lift it and drop it again and again to get it's weight to work in your favour. This doesn't really show if it's good, only if it's bad. The transom should not move! If you think the transom can't take this abuse then it should be replaced.

Replacing the transom can be done 3 ways.
Cut off the back off the boat( just the transom not make it shorter!). Peel the outer glass skin off the old transom. Install the new wood. Install the fiberglass that was on the old wood onto the new transom and patching it all around. This is shown on the hydrostreams site very well.

Cutting a slot so you can remove bits of the old transom and install the new one. Kind of like a letter slot.

Take off the deck. The hazard here is making sure the hull is supported before taking it off so it doesn't distort. The deck is like the transom in tying parts of the boat together.

There is also the pour in place stuff. Seacast.

thovind1
07-29-2003, 11:16 PM
Techno..I really wish there was some way I could talk to you in real time about this...do you use AIM at all?

We really looked the whole situation over today...he's still not in favor of taking the cap off, or the motor for that matter, because he's not convinced that the cap will line up correctly upon refitting it, and he doesn't know what's involved in setting the steering linkage after putting it back on. Also, he doesn't know anything about hydraulics...there is no quick-disconnect. Will the hydraulic fluid come gushing out when we disconnect it?

I'm trying to convince him that it really needs to be done, if for no other reason than to check the stringers out. But he thinks that if we screw something up trying to repair this the right way, we can't undo it. Is it my boat? Sure...but he's a lot more mechanically inclined than I am, so I'd like to have him with me on all of this.

The plan as of right now, is to tear out all the slivered, rotten wood that we can tear out without removing the motor (I know...bad idea) or the cap. This involves rotten wood on the transom (we checked it out pretty well today...it seems that when the previous owner installed the transom motor mount, he didn't seal the holes in the wood...it rotted pretty badly), the floor on only one side, and the rear wall...don't know what this is called. It's a brace in the rear that's connected to one of the stringers. The rest of the transom, although wet, isn't slivering when you try to put a screwdriver through it. We plan on using the epoxies at rotdoctor.com to seal the remaining wood that we can't get out in slivers, and use it to replace what wood is gone. Is this a good idea, with the wood having seen its better days? The rotdoctor epoxy sounds like it would seal it up. Then we plan to cover the new wood, and the rest of the existing wood throughout the entire area with multiple layers of glass. Please let me know if this is a good plan...I don't have the cash to get the materials to start the project yet, but I'd like to at least start gutting out the wood soon.

The Seacast...I did read the site over, and it sounds like awesome stuff...but from the site, it looks like it's more for boats with a skin on both sides of the transom, so you could just pour it in and knock the bubbles out. I've only got a skin on the one side, so I pretty much blew the idea off, because it says on the site that it's not meant to be a stand-alone transom...only a brace between two skins. If you know of a way that I can make a cast with this stuff, and put a skin on the other side, heck, that sounds easier than using our idea. Help me out, please? I'm gonna try to make a diagram to show you what areas we've found to be rotted, what areas are just wet, and what areas are solid, so maybe you could point me in the right direction.

thovind1
07-30-2003, 12:33 AM
Please excuse the cavemanesque representation, but this pretty much shows what I'm dealing with...

There are three real problem areas...the right side raised deck, where in the picture you can see me lifting up the glass. That wood needs to be scraped out to separate good from bad. The transom, on the right side where the motor mount used to be, is all rotten...it needs to be at least scraped out. The rest of the wood is warped, but it doesn't come out in slivers when you try scraping at it. I need to know if this part can be sealed, and the rotten part replaced with an epoxy? The third part is the left side rear wall 'supports'? I don't know what exactly you'd call this area, but I was scraping underneath the glass and discovered that this section, around the corner area, is all very rotted. These braces don't go all the way up to the cap..there is about a two or three in ch gap in between them. There is one additional question mark, and that is the piece of plywood on the stringer and back wall. I have no idea why there is no such plywood on the right side stringer. Anyway, this is starting to split at the layers...it shouldn't be a problem fixing that.

Using this, the pictures and my latest assessment of the wood, please tell me what would be the easiest and best way to go about these repairs. Could I get away with using something like a Seacast? Would I be better off using the RotDoctor products? Or should I actually just redo all of the wood in whole pieces, and not leave any partial pieces?

I understand how to seal the wood, and how to glass afterwards...what I don't get yet is, how do you bond the wood to each other? What do you use, and what is the correct time in the process to actually do the bonding? Also, I keep reading that doing corners is tricky....that you have to soften them. Why is this, and how do you do this? Thanks again for all of your help...I'm totally relying on you for my information....right now, I have nowhere else that I can find free professional advice on this.

thovind1
07-30-2003, 12:34 AM
I apologize that you can hardly read the text..the resizing for the post took its toll.

Bob T
07-31-2003, 05:03 PM
That's my opinion of the 'miracle' products you're talking about.From the look of things you need to do it properly i.e. replace the wood! If you plan to keep the boat ,do it right.I'm not sure what you mean by softening the edges.I assume you mean bond ing to a corner.Fiberglass cloth does not like 90degree corner so you have to round them off if you want it to stick.Seriously, get the book .It will make everything crystal clear.As for the deck not fitting properly after ,that's a possibiity,but the book clearly explains how to keep this from happening and how to deal with it if it does.Get the book ,show your dad you want to it right.He should respect that.BT

Gerben
07-31-2003, 06:37 PM
Hi,

Thovind, enjoy reading on your enthousiasm.
This post is not meant to kill your enthousiasm, just to avoid grief afterwards.

Reading your approach to this project you'd really like to do it right. To make this a project you can be proud of.
If you try to restore this boat to new condition, it will cost a lot of money. Glas, Resin, wood, paint, rubrail, fittings. It all adds up. Are you prepared to throw 2000+ dollars at this project?
Will the boat or the experience be worth it when it's finished?

If you go through I'm sure it will be a great project, a great learning opportunity and doing it together with your dad an unforgettable experience.

Have fun,
Gerben

Techno
07-31-2003, 08:04 PM
You need to get a book like bob said. This will explain things but also have pictures which go a long way in explaining something.
Seeing a picture of a stringer and it's repair, trying to explain it without pictures?
A scarf joint with a picture explains the whole thing. Doing it in words only takes a lot of them.

For the engine the only hard part is it weighs a considable amount. You need something to pick it up with. A simple stand to put it on, somthing like a saw horse. They pick up by screwing a lifting eye on the crankshaft, where the flywheel is.
The hydraulics aren't a problem They'll leak but no big deal. When everything is done you trim up and down. The trimming gets rid of the air.
If you have dual cable steering it will need to be adusted afterwards but should be anyway, thats why you have it. The steering just slides out too.
I bet there are a few people on this board that can take one off in about 15 minutes. 45 minutes blindfolded. I'm not kidding about the blindfold, there isn't a whole lot to them.

Also check some of the other posts on this. Some of them have many pictures that show what they did. It may look scary but it's just new.

The seacast stuff could be used. I guess you would place a fake transom inside temporarily, or leave it. Figure the volume you would fill and the price of the stuff. Replacing a transom is some digging but not as bad as it may seem.
As much as I don't like the seacast method this may be better for your circumstance, I think this is what it was developed for.
Others have used it and liked it. I think they all have put an aluminum plate in it too.
If it costs too much I would do it with plywood. You still have to do the stringers anyway. It's not that big a deal all things considered.
You can guess the price of all this. The resin is kind of an unknown. The rest is physical and can be calculated and priced.
The resin I believe is around 40% by weight of the cloth used. Not really but wood soak and losses. You would have to convert ounces of resin weight into liquid and see how much that is. Like using a total of 10 lbs of cloth would need 4 lbs of resin which just a guess is half a gallon. Just an example.
Paint is a variable depending on if your doing it and how much the product costs.

Georgia Boy
07-31-2003, 09:22 PM
YOu run the risk of getting hurt if you do a poor job, what happens when your motor comes loose, or your hulls bust from a flexing hull, and goes to pieces? If you are going to do something do it right you will be glad you did in the long run, plus as far as resale, try to sell a boat with a bad transom and stringer rot and you will hardly get the cost of the engine, and if its a bare hull, be best to just give it away. I personally do not prefer removing the cap, for one reason, you need to build a support o cradle to hold the hull, and keep it from distorting and giving when you remove the stringers, transom and floor. and with the deck on it helps hold the boat to its shape. Use marine grade plywood, around $60 a sheet, and as far as paint you can get a decent off brand Paint for as little as $55 a gallon with the hardner. If I am trying to save money I like to use "Nason" brand urethane, it is carried by most Dupont Dealer, and if you look on the back of the can it says made by Dupont, and it holds up pretty well and lays out good. one thing about the glass work,and I learned this the hardway, when you use anytype of galss cloth, make sure you put a layer ot mat in between them to bond them together, I built a transom once with nothing but cloth, and when finished you could almost peel the layes of glass off. Take your time read the book, and you will not have a problem, but don't half ass it when your ass is on the line.

thovind1
07-31-2003, 11:09 PM
Well, guys...good news and bad news.

The good news is, we decided to do things the right way. The entire day today was spent getting the motor off, and the cap. I think you guys mean that NEWER motors are easy to take off, because this was a chore. This is a 1978 Mercury. The transmission and throttle cables didn't have any quick-disconnect or anything, so we pretty much had to take the whole assemblies off the motor. The hydraulics were also a HUGE pain. Then there was the cap..don't get me started there. But we did finally get both off.

Now for the bad news...every ounce of wood in that boat is bad. I almost just threw it to the curb, I was so depressed. At least I didn't put a lot of money rebuilding things like the transom before I looked everything else over...now I'm more prepared in a sense, because I know what I'm in for. But then again, I'm really not prepared at all, because I have no idea where to start. And I thought it would be expensive before? Geez...This boat isn't gonna see the water for at least a year.

We did manage to tear out the transom wood, so that's at least done. I think we'll be using the Seacast for the transom and stringers, and either replace the rest of the wood or use rotdoctor products...whichever ends up being the best way in each situation. And you guys thought I needed your help before? Man...do I need some help now!! I'll definitely be getting this book that Bob T. recommended..it should help out a lot.

Georgia Boy
08-01-2003, 09:23 AM
I hope you braced the hull good before you removed the cap so the hull does not distort too much so everything fits. look if you have gone to the trouble to remove the cap, then do it right replace everything that needs it, you will appreciate it more in the long run. Try posting some pics of your progress So we will know exactly what you are dealing with, it helps understanding your situation easier. However I am curious about one thing. you said that you had to take the whole assemblies off the side of the engine? on merc throttle and shift cables, there should only be one nut holding the ends to the engine, and a plastic latch that hold the cables in place. just what did you take loose? yes on those older mercs the trim lines can be a pain taking all four of them loose and that trim limit switch should unplug. Post some pics To keep us informed.

thovind1
08-01-2003, 10:58 AM
Those lines on the motor just didn't wanna fit through the small hole that they went in through, because of the plastic brackets on them. We had to take off the rubber gasket. And there was a plastic latch, which we finally found after searching for a half-hour for something holding them in. We took off a spring-loaded nut, FINALLY got the first one through the hole, and the second was simple.

I didn't brace the hull right now, because it seems really solid...no movement or flex in it at all. I presume that this will change once I take the floor out, so I'll have to remember to do that. I did manage to take a few pictures last night, with the cap off and the transom almost all the way out. I was planning on taking more today, but I managed to pick up a pretty bad head cold yesterday, in the 87 degree heat...go figure.

thovind1
08-01-2003, 11:01 AM
THis is the transom, as much as we've gotten out so far. All of this wood...the raised decks, all the braces, whatever those are on the extreme sides (look like tire wells)...everything has to be replaced. We plan on, right now, just replacing one area at a time, so we can keep track of the measurements for everything, and how everything fits together.

thovind1
08-01-2003, 11:04 AM
Not a very clear picture, but this shows the floor, with the two stringers underneath. The stringers are likely the most rotted part of it all...I'd have never found that out had I not taken the cap off. I'm glad I did now. This floor is also rotted on this end, in between the fiberglass skins. We're thinking about pouring Seacast in for these stringers. The floor would be just too expensive to do this way, though.

thovind1
08-01-2003, 11:09 AM
Another pic of the transom and surrounding area. May better show the rest of the wood I'll have to tear out and rebuild.

thovind1
08-01-2003, 11:11 AM
Finally, a mechanical question...anyone know for sure what this is? It connects directly to the pos and neg of the battery, and to the left side of the motor. I've been told one of two things...a charger or an isolator.

sho305
08-01-2003, 12:16 PM
I used plain old plywood @$18 for 3/4 sheet. I thought this was the cheapest way? I soaked it good before using each piece. I did not find it that hard, just took time fiddling with the wood to get the shape/size right. Good saw practice. glassing stuff in was not hard at all, just messy and took time but was brand new when done. I think the gutting of wet wood was the hardest, and maybe some of the filling to get outer surfaces smooth. I used west epoxy, see the bayliner transom post from about a year ago. Still working well, I beat on it some last weekend.:D Not a whole lot of boat though. Thinking 85hp is all I want on it.:) Now, for the next one...:D

I would not cut the outer skin if I did it again, cutting the well out would be better. This next one I will have to split.

It looks nasty now, but when you get all the wood out and it is clean, every bit of wood you glass back in is new and looks great.

Pretty sure I would use better wood if it had been a more stressed application than 85hp. I used more cloth than they did to make sure.

natzx7
08-01-2003, 02:04 PM
thovind, I am not an experienced glass guy, but once I started on a project like that.I lost storage for the boat and gave it away. Anyway I was told that when doing exactly what you are you should measure carefully between the top of the gunnels and cut 4 to 6 two by fours to run across the boat laterally to keep it from distorting. Just sitting on the trailer without the cap can allow the hull to spread and when the resin in the transom kicks it can "suck in " the hullsides making it impossible to replace the cap. I may be wrong about this but I figured I'd throw it out there and let the gurus decide. Hope it helps.-Nat

Superdave
08-02-2003, 11:11 AM
I found this book in our local library
Runabout Renovations-How To Fix Up An OldFiberglass Speedboat'by Jim Anderson
I would lose the Seacast, it's exspensive. I bought a sheet of 3/4" marine plywood for $60.00. It was enough to do the transom, knees, and the battery floors. I had a small bit left over. I did make my transon 4 layers. I cut and dry fit ALL my pieces. Then covered EVERY piece with 1 oz. mat. I also glued the transom pieces together with 1 oz mat between each piece of plywood. Before you start glassing pieces in, have a solid game plan for clamps. In my pics you see I was a little creative with 4x4's and Breeko blocks. I also used some wedges to drive in between the 4x4's to increase pressure. You can never have enough clamps. I would also do like natzx7 says and support the hull good. When the resin kicks it will cause heat and distortion. After you get the bottom hull done and start on the cap, you might consider doing away with the splashwell. It's only a place to collect water and starts seeping in the motor mount holes, vwala!! More rot!!! Take your time. Also, if you would like me to email you some pics with a better detailed descrption let me know.
Good Luck,
Dave

sho305
08-04-2003, 10:46 AM
It really is cheap to fix up a hull compared to what nice ones cost. I was looking at a nice maybe early '90s boat with a 150gt on it; it had cracks on the transom corners but was solid and looked fine. The guy asks if he could get $4k out of it yet as he paid 5k a few years back. I think to myself that is about right(asking price), yet I know there is damage in that transom or the 1/8" crack would not be on each side of the well;) I think no way would I pay that knowing the time involved, and no way is it worth that with those little cracks to anyone with a clue. But that is the kind of boat I look for cheap, to fix. It is a matter of time to fix, not difficulty. I could do another $200 bayliner in about 40-60 hours I think, and get about $1500 in profit. It took me longer learning the first time.

Same with smashed cars, though they try to get the prices up there now days. They are not worth anything, as it is not worth doing unless you makeout on them. I bought one for $800 and did, then I saw a place trying to get $3k out of the same model/year and same damage? That would be zero profit; what idiot would pay the same for a smashed car you could buy all good? Then there are few buyers equipped to fix it anyway, and they would have to pay someone. But you need little special equipment to do glass work really so anyone can if they want to, or have the ambition to spend the time instead of money. At this point I have better places for money, and you can really pat yourself on the back when you are done. But there are people that just are not cut out for that kind of stuff.

thovind1
08-21-2003, 12:43 AM
OK...here's where I stand as of today...

I'm trying to get the guy that sold me this boat to at least give me a good deal on another, without a motor....the original boat is in such bad shape that I'd actually spend more money fixing it than I would just to get a different boat altogether. The guy works at a Marina, on the southwest side of Michigan..hopefully he's enough of a good businessman to realize that he royally screwed me over, and he'll give me a deal. If so, then this boat is going to the trashheap.

Assuming he'll not do this (let's be realistic), here's my plans...I plan on using Seacast to do the transom and all stringers. The remaining wood surrounding the transom (all battery decks, fuel decks, knees, etc), however rotting, are still solid, so I plan to use the 'RotDoctor' products here. The main floor itself will have to be redone with fiberglass and marine grade plywood. If this isn't a good plan, please someone let me know before I make a HUGE mistake.

A few things I don't know...what can you use for an inner skin with Seacast? Can you just fiberglass the outside of it? And the RotDoctor stuff...has anyone used it? I hope someone can give me some advice on this stuff. From the pictures on the site, it looks like you don't need to fiberglass it after sealoing the wood. Does anyone know if this is the case?

Also...anyone in Michigan...are you familiar with Apollo Marine in the southwest corner of the state? Is this guy crooked? He seemed like an honorable guy when I met him, so I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt...but he's really not come through on any part of our deal with this boat.

thovind1
08-21-2003, 12:46 AM
Here's another question as well...

I plan on calling myself, but just to have something to compare this to...how much, in your experiences, should it charge for a professional repair shop to just replace the wooden decks, knees, etc if I let them do it? This is considering that the motor and cap would already be off the boat, and I'll have already replaced the stringers and transom. Just so it's done correctly, and I don't have to worry about it, I'm wondering if this would be a better route, if need be.

sho305
08-22-2003, 08:54 AM
I have no idea, but I think Barefoot Bob posted on here some work he had done to his nice Checkmate, and it was a lot of cash if I remember right. You have to decide, but this is how I figured it.

When I did my '83 bayliner, I just used the cheapest CDX outdoor plywood I could get. Then I used epoxy as it is supposed to be a little more waterproof, and stick better to old stuff. It added little to the cost anyway, in all. I figured this boat was only going to last so long, and this would do it fine for longer than I would have it anyway, since I would seal it up good, over build it stronger than stock some, and take care of it. The seacast seemed expensive to me, and you still had to work to install it anyway. Perhaps other design hulls would be easier to use it on.

I can whittle a piece of ply to any shape in a few minutes with a skill and jig saw, so the wood was the easy part. Tearing the old stuff out was the hardest, and laying the glass was time consuming and messy, but not that hard to do. Besides it was nice to see new stuff going in there and I knew it was down-hill from then on. I still think a plain old boat, that is not a performance boat and not worth a lot...this is the cheapest and best way to do it. You can use plain glass resin to be even cheaper.

This is just my opinion, but 3/4" ply is $18 a 4x8 sheet. I have about $200 total into all the glass, wood, epoxy, filler, gloves/etc. for a transom and two stringers I doubled, and the rear half of the floor I made panels for. This transom was small, but that is cheap in my book. Use the next size heavier wood and you don't need to glass that much except where it meets the old. Just glass enough to seal it well, typically that is all they did anyway. Keep the original heavy glass skins to reuse, like the outer hull skin. Filling that back in was a pain so go from the inside if you can. Use the old pieces for patterns on new wood if you can, or get good with a ruler.

If I were doing a performance boat, I would do more. But this is as strong as new and works great. Some carpet, seat repair, the transom paint, motor tune up, and lots of buffing (maybe another $200 in all) and I have a nice stock runner I can use or sell.:cool: for $600. I saw one in poor condition for $1995 on a local lot.

CrayzKirk
08-25-2003, 06:56 PM
Hi,

I looked into the SeaCast stuff and it looked like it would work ok. Again, the biggest amount of work is getting the old wood out. The web site showed cutting the inner skin off to get the wood out. In most boats, this isn't going to be easy. I also wouldn't cut the outer skin off since the finish will be harder. It is hard to beat wood, glass cloth and resin.

Marine plywood is overkill on anything that isn't directly in contact with water. It has more plys so it can be formed without breaking. Good ole CDX is good enough for a boat floor and transom. You can invest in it for your transom if you want however, I would use CDX on the floor reguardless.

I used a bunch of the Rotdoctor stuff on my boat. The CPES sealer is a great product to use before painting. Epoxy is pretty much epoxy and theirs is pretty expensive. I used EpoxyProducts for the majority of my boat needs and just bought a three gallon kit for my next project for $147 shipped.

I also got some knitted cloth (Knytex 1208 and 1708). It is very strong, lays down well and wets out great. Get some aluminum rollers and throw away brushes. Some special rollers for spreading polyester/epoxy resin are also nice.

If you go polyester resin, you may want to use vinyl-ester resin. It has a much stronger bond than polyester. I would also not cover your floor with matt/resin as suggested in the Runabout Renovation book. Lots of weight for something you don't need. I used several coats of CPES on the plywood, a couple of layers of fiberglass on the edges (tabbing) and painted over the plywood with two coats of Rhinotop before the last coat of CPES dried. It cleans up well and is easy to repair.

Lots of info on the net. If possible replace the old, bad wood. Even though it is possible to drill holes and inject epoxy, you don't always know where it is going or how dry the wood is. Epoxy and water don't mix well and some won't cure correctly in the presence of water.

Also, you can put epoxy over polyester however, the opposite isn't always true.

Just my $0.05 worth...

CK

P.S. If you are going to go the SeaCast route, I would split the deck and hull to get the transom out. Cut the inner skin off and remove the wood that way. Of course, once you have that done, you can go ahead and put wood back in as well. The RotDoctor site recommends cutting the cap off the deck at the transom and digging the old one out. Fit some wood in place and fill with epoxy. Somewhat expensive however, it would work ok.

sho305
08-26-2003, 07:49 AM
Another thing that saved time I did, was to epoxy the wood ahead of time. My transom wood was all glassed up on the horses before I installed it. I could walk by and slap a layer of glass on and go away. Then I sanded it some, put in the hull and mostly only had to glass the edges in, though I put another layer over the whole thing too. Saved much time working inside the boat.

If you can verify the rot is localized, fixing it with a filler would be ok. I just found I could grind/cut/air hammer the old stuff out pretty fast though messy. And it took a lot longer to try and fish out the rot keeping the glass intact. Just replacing the whole piece of wood was cheap, and then I knew it was all good in there and just like when it was new. No worries about strength, etc.

Techno
08-26-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by CrayzKirk
Marine plywood is overkill on anything that isn't directly in contact with water. It has more plys so it can be formed without breaking. Good ole CDX is good enough for a boat floor and transom. You can invest in it for your transom if you want however, I would use CDX on the floor reguardless.


Marine ply will rot if it is in direct contact with water, it is still wood. (in any other concept the transom is in direct contact with water). It isn't anywhere the same as CDX or other construction grade wood. 1/2" thick wood of both aren't the same strength and the reason you would choose one over the other.
Marine ply isn't overkill, it is strongest for the wieght and homongonous. It also isn't being set over 2x4s on 16" centers, or some other worked out house building code. It is being used on a boat, which isn't a static house. In a house the 2x4s carry the load. In the floor it's the joists. Neither use of CDX loads the plywood.
If it was overkill then boat builders wouldn't use a more expensive material when a cheaper substitute was available.

If your floor has to bridge a wide span then the marine ply is the choice.(unless thicker and more wieght) If you want more strength for the same wieght then marine ply. If you do use construction grade don't do an even trade of thickness for thickness since they aren't the same. In my STV the floor has to bridge a gap 4' wide by 7' long. The floor is supported only at the sides. CDX would suck. It would bow down in the center.
By using CDX in a transom that required all that work seems to me a waste with little savings in cost. The transom is the heart of the boat. I just don't see a savings in the transom.

Marine ply uses all wood and no bark fillers. It is laminated with complete sheets of veneer, the veneers are edge matched and cut to fit, while construction grade has gaps in it. Add the gaps and bark veneers together and the construction grade is far far below the marine ply and the reason it is cheaper.

Even on the outside the difference can be seen. There aren't even patchs on the "D" side of CDX, just large oval shaped holes where the knots were cut out. So you just lost this veneer.
A,B,C,D reference the quality of the surface. CDX is C on 1 side and D on the other. X I think means exterior.

If I remember right. A has no patchs- no knots cut out. It's all solid veneer. B is a match for the patch. C isn't a match and D isn't filled or patched. The knots are cut out and the hole is left.
If your not going to use marine at least use a ply that isn't rated "D"
There is a reason why CDX is so cheap. It's made cheaply out of garbage veneer and it's internal constuction is also cheaper. Another comparision is chip board is also used as house sheathing but who would use that for a transom?

Marine ply on the other hand is usually AB, again it uses solid and complete veneers. And it uses no bark. It is solid wood, although made from thin slices of solid wood. It's a reconstituted solid board with the grain running at 90*. This and furniture grade are the only plywoods that are solid wood again. (Baltic birch is too but rare now, uses many more veneers too).

I'm not saying you must use marine ply just what the differences are. There is a big difference and should be considered before a savings in dollars becomes the choice selector.

CrayzKirk
08-26-2003, 04:24 PM
Ok... I stand corrected... I used ACX grade on my boat. Must have been remembering grades in school. It was my understanding that the main purpose of marine grade was for boat exterior work or special cases where the additional strength was required (such as your long span). The additional cost is usually pretty small compared to the total project. My boat will never have anything larger than a 115 inline on it so the additional strength would be overkill for me. It is a slow tri-hull with three stringers and no long spans. Making general statements is a great way to put your foot in your mouth. :confused: (my foot, my mouth)...

Sorry for any additional confusion. Yeah, I would not use CDX or chipboard in a boat.

Kirk

sho305
08-27-2003, 11:16 AM
Well, uhh, yeah, but I put bayliner and CDX in the same sentence:D I think that is what they used anyway by the looks of it, but not sure. I cut a chunk with no knots on the outside for the transom. Also put about twice the thickness of glass layers on the inside in addition to leaving the original edges the wood fit into. I resined the wood three times to seal before any cloth. This is not a performance boat, and I'll not run more than the rated 90hp on it without adding to the transom...I doubt I ever will change the motor before a new owner gets it. But it will do until I have a real boat going.

However, it does make for a good cheap repair for this 'ho-hum' boat to extend its life when a little extra glass is added to it. I bought a gallon of epoxy anyway, that should help too being epoxy. I have jumped up and down on the cav plate of the 275lb force with my 195lbs, and it don't move. Had the boat airborne at wot 40mph+, though the gas tank flies out and it is not made for that, so I did it only for testing. The hull flexes and that is why I would not power it up. I would not use cheap wood on a S&F boat, at least not in a structural manner. I would not recommend it, just did not see the point for this 1983 rag of a boat. I still get comments on how everyone likes it though.

Just want to be clear there is no substitute for the real stuff, and the cost is not that great. I was just fixing up an old bayliner with a 85 force.:) It was more of a learning experiment than anything else. Why else would I want to put a pad on it?:eek: If your boat is going to be stressed or over powered; don't use poor materials in it. The materials don't cost much anyway, the labor does.

Reese
08-27-2003, 11:13 PM
the patience to completely seal the plywood...use marine ply.

Strength wise...I have never seen any kind of statistic that shows marine ply to be significantly better than regular CDX.

The problem is that wood is very difficult to test...each piece is slightly different in grade and in structural strength. Wood is a great product but it does have its dissadvantages...water is one of them.

Marine ply is probaby better than CDX...but how much better is questionable...that's why I decided to use CDX for my transom. Just choose the material that lets you sleep better. Marine or CDX...polyester resin or epoxy...your call.

Bob T
09-08-2003, 06:05 PM
Superdave..That's the book I mentioned on the first page of this thread.Pretty good book eh!I replaced my floor ,transom and added stringers after reading it, with very little prior experience doing glass.That was 3 years ago and they're still good.Adding the pad in the next couple of weeks.Glad the books available.BT

thovind1
09-08-2003, 07:13 PM
I just received the book this past week. Looks like it's gonna save me a buttload of money.

I'm gonna seriously have to save up somehow over a long period of time for the project...I've got a baby on the way. It's costing me a fortune already! But at least I can plot out the project completely with the book. Thanks, guys.

Techno
09-08-2003, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Reese

Strength wise...I have never seen any kind of statistic that shows marine ply to be significantly better than regular CDX.

The problem is that wood is very difficult to test...each piece is slightly different in grade and in structural strength.

Marine ply is probaby better than CDX...but how much better is questionable....

Reese
See my tirade on page 4.
I have seen strength differences.

A simple method is the deflection test. Clamp a board on one end to a bench. Add a weight and measure how much the end sags.
Keep thickness, length, weight and distance the weight is from the end the same. The only variable is the specimen.

There are also shear tests and a whole bunch others.