The Big 6 -- Outboards.

[Lake X Kid]

Mercury, OMC, Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, & Seven Marine.

Outboard Power you have come a long way, since the days when a man could carry an Outboard with one hand.


6 Of The Most Powerful Outboard Boat Engines Ever Built (slashgear.com) (https://www.slashgear.com/1629664/boat-engine-most-powerful-outboard-motors-ever-built/?zsource=msnsyndicated)

[Lake X Kid]

https://www.slashgear.com/img/gallery/6-of-the-most-powerful-outboard-boat-engines-ever-built/intro-1721897611.jpg
https://www.slashgear.com/img/gallery/6-of-the-most-powerful-outboard-boat-engines-ever-built/one-honda-v8-outboard-motor-produces-350-horsepower-1721897611.jpg
https://www.slashgear.com/img/gallery/6-of-the-most-powerful-outboard-boat-engines-ever-built/suzuki-makes-a-powerful-v6-outboard-1721897611.jpg

[Lake X Kid]

https://www.slashgear.com/img/gallery/6-of-the-most-powerful-outboard-boat-engines-ever-built/the-mercury-verado-v12-produces-600-horsepower-1721897611.jpg
https://www.slashgear.com/img/gallery/6-of-the-most-powerful-outboard-boat-engines-ever-built/yamahas-latest-xto-series-v8-makes-450-horsepower-1721897611.jpg
https://www.slashgear.com/img/gallery/6-of-the-most-powerful-outboard-boat-engines-ever-built/seven-marine-made-a-627-horsepower-outboard-1721897611.jpg

[donmac]

certainly have, now you can't carry the cash in one hand!

[Scream And Fly]

The last 10 years have been really interesting. What's most incredible is just how far ahead Mercury is ahead of its competition with its mega-horsepower outboards now. I would never have imagined a V10 and V12 outboard! Just incredible.

[skialot2]

The power output increase in the last 10 years is incredible. The loss of the 2 strokes is sad. But since then, the maximum power has doubled. From 300HP to 600HP. Not to mention, 4 stroke motors with the same rated max horsepower have gobs more low end and midrange power.

[pcrussell50]

The power output increase in the last 10 years is incredible. The loss of the 2 strokes is sad. But since then, the maximum power has doubled. From 300HP to 600HP. Not to mention, 4 stroke motors with the same rated max horsepower have gobs more low end and midrange power.

From a tech point of view, I'm not sure what's so incredible about it. It looks like to me like it's just adding more and more size, weight, complexity, displacement, (and cost) to get more and more power. It's like solving your range issues on your battery car by adding more weight (batteries).

According to the Merc Racing web site, the 400R is 5.7l, giving you about 70hp/l for a racing outboard. The nearly half century old, 2.4/200 (you just knew I was going to bring that one up, ;) ), is over 83hp/l and it's just fishmotor, not even a racing motor.

So at the end of the day, what I see driving the power output increases is not so much big increases in technology, as much as people's willingness to tolerate (or embrace) more size, weight, complexity, and cost.

And of course, gobs more displacement will give you gobs more torque. That's just simple physics.

***

Anyway, good-on Merc for giving people what they want. I'm just not sure what is so incredible about it. It all seems pretty straightforward and to be expected... Want more power? Build it bigger. Merc knows it and is doing it.

-Peter

[skialot2]

From a tech point of view, I'm not sure what's so incredible about it. It looks like to me like it's just adding more and more size, weight, complexity, displacement, (and cost) to get more and more power. It's like solving your range issues on your battery car by adding more weight (batteries).

According to the Merc Racing web site, the 400R is 5.7l, giving you about 70hp/l for a racing outboard. The nearly half century old, 2.4/200 (you just knew I was going to bring that one up, ;) ), is over 83hp/l and it's just fishmotor, not even a racing motor.

So at the end of the day, what I see driving the power output increases is not so much big increases in technology, as much as people's willingness to tolerate (or embrace) more size, weight, complexity, and cost.

And of course, gobs more displacement will give you gobs more torque. That's just simple physics.

***

Anyway, good-on Merc for giving people what they want. I'm just not sure what is so incredible about it. It all seems pretty straightforward and to be expected... Want more power? Build it bigger. Merc knows it and is doing it.

-Peter

The incredible part is 20 years ago it took almost twice the displacement in a 4 stroke to produce the same power as a 2 stroke. Now, according to your numbers, it only takes 20% more displacement to produce the same power. All while using 30%-40% less gas. AS far as weight goes, a 2014 300XS V6 Optimax weighs 505lbs. and a 2024 300ProXS V8 weighs 511lbs. For 6lbs I will take the V8

[Brad Zastrow]

For those people with poor memory the Mercury four stroke I6 400R was 2.6 liter that made 153 HP per liter. It came with a 3-year warranty and is reliable. Even the famed Mercury two stroke 2.5 liter drag racing engine did not make that power and came with no warranty. Really the only advantage is the 2.5 are light weight.

[CUDA]

From a tech point of view, I'm not sure what's so incredible about it. It looks like to me like it's just adding more and more size, weight, complexity, displacement, (and cost) to get more and more power. It's like solving your range issues on your battery car by adding more weight (batteries).

According to the Merc Racing web site, the 400R is 5.7l, giving you about 70hp/l for a racing outboard. The nearly half century old, 2.4/200 (you just knew I was going to bring that one up, ;) ), is over 83hp/l and it's just fishmotor, not even a racing motor.

So at the end of the day, what I see driving the power output increases is not so much big increases in technology, as much as people's willingness to tolerate (or embrace) more size, weight, complexity, and cost.

And of course, gobs more displacement will give you gobs more torque. That's just simple physics.

***

Anyway, good-on Merc for giving people what they want. I'm just not sure what is so incredible about it. It all seems pretty straightforward and to be expected... Want more power? Build it bigger. Merc knows it and is doing it.

-Peter

Someone who is using a couple 40 years old crossflows complaining that you are not impressed with the new motors

Well, only a fool would listen to you.



Let's face it these new motors were never made for someone like you,

I had a new 140 crossflow on my 1977 17 ft Gypsy star 47 years ago:rolleyes:

No, these new motors are definitely not for YOU

An OMC V 8 25 inch is 625 lbs and uses twice the fuel.

[David - WI]

Nevermind the supercharger. :rolleyes:

[pcrussell50]

Someone who is using a couple 40 years old crossflows complaining that you are not impressed with the new motors

Well, only a fool would listen to you.

As always, you are free to show us which of my statements are factually incorrect.

Rhetoric, gaslighting, and (as in your case) plain old flailing in rage, are not substitutes for science, mathematics, logic or reason.

-Peter

[donmac]

has a hard run hrs. of service number been estimated before major rebuild is necessary on a sc'd merc.

[Brad Zastrow]

Nevermind the supercharger. :rolleyes:

It does not matter how the power is made. Is it reliable? Really difficult to supercharge and turbo charge a two-stroke engine. There is reason why all the manufacturers abandoned two-strokes, consumers do want them on a new boat. If you want to live in fantasy land where old technology rules. Have fun with that. I will agree there is a very small niche market for light weight engines such as drag racing. But Mercury is not interested in selling a few dozen engines a year.

[David]

It’s not hard to supercharge a two stroke. Super charged two stroke diesels exist. I don’t think super charged diesels are popular though

[pcrussell50]

For those people with poor memory the Mercury four stroke I6 400R was 2.6 liter that made 153 HP per liter. It came with a 3-year warranty and is reliable.

Sounds like an awesome motor. They came out in what? 2015? Only nine years old. Should be tons of them. What happened to it? Are they still around? I feel like I never see them in the Haulover videos. Maybe I need to pay attention? I’ll have a look about the docks at Ala Moana tomorrow on my Honolulu layover. In Wailea today. Not much of a harbour here.

-Peter

[pcrussell50]

The incredible part is 20 years ago it took almost twice the displacement in a 4 stroke to produce the same power as a 2 stroke. Now, according to your numbers, it only takes 20% more displacement to produce the same power. All while using 30%-40% less gas. AS far as weight goes, a 2014 300XS V6 Optimax weighs 505lbs. and a 2024 300ProXS V8 weighs 511lbs. For 6lbs I will take the V8

Fair enough. So they are stretching the dough by increasing displacement while trying not to add too much more metal. Always more optimisations to be had that way… computer modeling and develop new casting technologies and such, up to a point where you just can’t go any thinner.

Will be interesting to see how many are still running 40-50 years. I have the oldest FourStroke still running that I know of. A 2000 Mercaha 90.

[Brad Zastrow]

Sounds like an awesome motor. They came out in what? 2015? Only nine years old. Should be tons of them. What happened to it? Are they still around? I feel like I never see them in the Haulover videos. Maybe I need to pay attention? I’ll have a look about the docks at Ala Moana tomorrow on my Honolulu layover. In Wailea today. Not much of a harbour here.

-Peter
The 2.6L 400R are everywhere. Center consoles and a lot of outboard cats. I have a number of friends who own them. This is really crazy statement from you. The Mercury Verado series is all the same platform. Next week is the LOTO Shootout. Come see all the O/B's cats and CC's with every version of Mercury on the back.

[David]

I used to see the 2.6L 400R on a few boats at a Poker run once a year. Never very many. I think the offshore cats running up my lake these days are using V8s.

[pcrussell50]

The 2.6L 400R are everywhere. Center consoles and a lot of outboard cats. I have a number of friends who own them. This is really crazy statement from you. The Mercury Verado series is all the same platform. Next week is the LOTO Shootout. Come see all the O/B's cats and CC's with every version of Mercury on the back.

I’ll try to catch a couple of Haulover vids from my hotel room in Honolulu tonight. Surely if they are common, some should show up, right? And I’ll see what I can find on in the slips at Ala Moana near my hotel.

-Peter

[CUDA]

Don't get out much Mr know-it-all

The superchargers have been around a L O N G time like 16 years and you never saw one huh?

They are super reliable also,

Sorry, they don't use carburetors

So you think the 140 Crossflow was the Epitome of engineering Huh?


The 2.6-liter L6 Mercury Racing Verado 350 SCi outboard engine was released in 2008. It was the first high-performance four-stroke outboard and featured a supercharged engine that could produce 350 horsepower. The engine also had power steering, custom cool-air induction, and SmartCraft digital controls.

[pcrussell50]

Don't get out much Mr know-it-all

The superchargers have been around a L O N G time like 16 years and you never saw one huh?

No. Not what I said. I said I don’t see many/any 2.6l supercharged 400R still being used today. Maybe they were once super popular? I’ll have to trust Brad on that. Google tells me the 2.6l supercharged 400R (the one Brad pointed out), came out in 2015. Is that wrong?

I also don’t see any on the first two pages of the for sale section here at S&F or discussed in the four stroke section on it’s first two pages. Maybe they are so popular among S&Fers that nobody is selling them? And so reliable that nobody has any maintenance questions about them? Again if those are true, I’ll take Brad’s word for it if he comes out and says it.

I also don’t get out to the east coast that much lately. If you were to tell me that 2.6l supercharged 400Rs are everywhere in Florida, I’d be forced to believe you.

***

I didn’t even start boating until summer 2008. I couldn’t have told you a Verado from a Corrado back then.

-Peter

[CUDA]

The 350 SCI makes it's power at 6,400 RPMs the 400 7,000 and has to use 91 octane, you can use 89 but the motor has knock sensors to prevent damage, so it decreases power to prevent damage, just like your Carbs:rolleyes:

Why do you hate technology?

Do your boats have a steering wheel or tiller?

[pcrussell50]

Why do you hate technology?

Do your boats have a steering wheel or tiller?

What makes you think I hate technology? What have I ever said that would cause you to think that? :confused:

Also… Which of the boats in my list makes you think I have a tiller? There is another boat not on my list. It has a 2.4/200. In a shocker of shockers it too, does not have a tiller.

And… What’s wrong with a tiller? For certain applications aren’t they a good choice?

-Peter

[Brad Zastrow]

First video I pulled up of Haulover was almost all Verados. The 300 and 350 are 2.6 supercharged Mercs. The V8, v10, v12 Mercs have v angle top cowls. The other flat top cowls are all Verados. The 400R's are everywhere on performance CC and Cats that are few years old. Yesterday I saw a large cruiser about 35' with twin v10 Merc 400R. Those boats historically always had I/O power. The four strokes have completely changed the market. Multi O/B v12 600 hp are powering 50' Cruisers that almost always came with diesel engines. Easier on fuel, less weight, less rigging, and more room inside the boat.

NEVER DO THIS AT HAULOVER INLET!! BIG MISTAKE! | Boats vs Haulover Inlet (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXqxXrb8lJg&list=RDQMbXuySZXC8xE&start_radio=1)

[pcrussell50]

I think our lines got crossed here, Brad. What I was talking about is specifically the ten year old supercharged 2.6 400R. The one you told us about that is powerful and durable. I want to know how many of those are still in service.

Otherwise yes, I know there’s nice brand NEW R’s. All. Over. The. Place.

-Peter

[David - WI]

Supercharged two-stroke electric hybrid: https://www.cycleworld.com/story/motorcycle-news/kawasaki-to-design-supercharged-two-stroke-hybrid/

[skialot2]

Supercharged two-stroke electric hybrid: https://www.cycleworld.com/story/motorcycle-news/kawasaki-to-design-supercharged-two-stroke-hybrid/
Nice idea. But it's a 2 stroke with camshaft and valves. I will be just as heavy and Rev limited as a 4 stroke. According to the article, because it uses regular valves, it requires the supercharger and fuel injection to run at all. That means it will be extra heavy and super complicated.

[David - WI]

It won't be any heavier than a 4-stroke and will still make power on every revolution rather than every other.

But, I've said for years a hybrid should use a two-stroke tuned to only run at one rpm, making the most power for the least fuel & emissions.

[John S]

Multi O/B v12 600 hp are powering 50' Cruisers that almost always came with diesel engines. Easier on fuel, less weight, less rigging, and more room inside the boat.

This example is the one I can't wrap my brain around. I love paddle boarding in the harbor to look at all the beautiful sail/powerboats. And as stated, the new cruisers are starting to show up with multiple O/B's, which completely block off the transom swim step. It just doesn't make sense to me in that application, where diesels under the floor would make more sense. I'm nowhere near that economic level to even consider the option (hence the paddleboard, lol), but if I was, I think I'd prefer the cost of operation of inboards over the convenience of OB. I wouldn't think efficiency comes into that customers mindset, but again, that's probably why they can afford a 50' cruiser and I'm on a paddleboard. :D

As for performance boats/ fishing boats, I completely understand it. All I see in the marinas in the CC segment is Yamahas, Suzukis, or a Verado variant. And to a man, every one I ask loves the swap they made to 4 strokes.

[powerabout]

This example is the one I can't wrap my brain around. I love paddle boarding in the harbor to look at all the beautiful sail/powerboats. And as stated, the new cruisers are starting to show up with multiple O/B's, which completely block off the transom swim step. It just doesn't make sense to me in that application, where diesels under the floor would make more sense. I'm nowhere near that economic level to even consider the option (hence the paddleboard, lol), but if I was, I think I'd prefer the cost of operation of inboards over the convenience of OB. I wouldn't think efficiency comes into that customers mindset, but again, that's probably why they can afford a 50' cruiser and I'm on a paddleboard. :D

As for performance boats/ fishing boats, I completely understand it. All I see in the marinas in the CC segment is Yamahas, Suzukis, or a Verado variant. And to a man, every one I ask loves the swap they made to 4 strokes.

I am wondering what will happen to them in 10-15 yrs at repower time...scrapped due to repower is the value of the boat?

[CUDA]

I was looking at buying a small parcel of land on the Niagara River about 10 miles from the Falls, for $50,000. so I called the building department to see how small of a house I could build and If I could just put up a dock, to live on an old 40 ft Cruiser for the summer, that way I could travel the Great Lakes in the summer and avoid high property taxes, So I called around to see how much Seasonal dock space for a 40ft boat would be, Average price $3,000. from May 15 to Oct 15 with power:cheers:

and winter pull-out and storage are CHEAP, Just the Property taxes would be close to seasonal rental:eek:

And the freshwater boats with such little use are a dream, So I'm looking and buying a boat from Canada, our money is worth 30%

more now in Canada, and the boats are so much nicer than anything I'm seen in sunny salt water Florida,

So my summer home will be on an aft cabin Sea Ray, with stock running gear,

But I'm going to look at a 41 Sea Ray aft cabin project boat this weekend on the East coast,

With a small home on the St Johns River just north of Palatka for my main residence I plan on doing a lot of traveling and I don't want all the complications on a 30-year-old Yacht, my goal is $100,000. total makeover, remove all factory running gear, and install extra water tanks and fuel tanks where old motors were, and a big battery bank for solar roof panels ( heat inside a boat in Florida is not COOL:rolleyes: ) in these big boats the motors are in the center of the boat, new garage area instead of motor room, with vibrating motors and heat, not good.
Mike who is building Todd's new race boats says he has built outboard motor conversions before and would be no problem and give the boat extra folation in the rear and light weight. I want the motors six foot back to give lots of space, these boats are 14 ft wide
twin new outboards 10 feet on center = BIG swim deck , and since I hate the sun, Todd has a 10ft X 24 foot flat Vacuum table to make sheet goods, So we could make a huge Hard top, 4x4 aluminum supports, think cage because I need a small boat hanging off the rear so the 4x4 will be thick for strength, I have a Miller mig welding machine, need lots of solar don't care to use generator if not necessary.

With all new outboard running gear, it should be trouble-free when I'm far away from home.

I was also thinking of being an older boat, Pirates of the Caribbean would seek a wealthier-looking rig ;)

[John S]

I am wondering what will happen to them in 10-15 yrs at repower time...scrapped due to repower is the value of the boat?

Recently went on a trip to Catalina on a sailboat. It was so much fun. So naturally, like anyone that has vacation syndrome, started looking at 10-15 year old cabin cruisers. The depreciation is staggering. Of course, then start adding in all the things that go along with it... The acronym BOAT is pretty accurate.:D I'm sure the maintenance $$ is similar, but I would assume (yeah, I know:D) the diesels and their drivetrains would have a much longer replacement life??? Like I said, its well out of my price range.

[Brad Zastrow]

I think our lines got crossed here, Brad. What I was talking about is specifically the ten year old supercharged 2.6 400R. The one you told us about that is powerful and durable. I want to know how many of those are still in service.

Otherwise yes, I know there’s nice brand NEW R’s. All. Over. The. Place.

-Peter

It almost as if you are picking a fight in a polite way. Go to any Poker Run or go to any area where there are high end CC's and cats and ask the owners about their 400R's. Talk to any Merc tech and they will tell you the 400R is a very reliable engine. Do your own homework. Not like you are going to buy a 4 stroke anytime soon. I will say again the new four strokes have completely changed the new boat market all the way up and down the line. 25 years ago, when I showed up at a Poker Run with 100 boats, I was the only boat with outboards. Many people laughed at my so-called eggbeaters. I had a 30' Motion cat with triple 280's. The last few years at the Poker Runs there are more 4 stroke outboard boats than I/O's. Same thing in the LOTO Shootout weekend. Very few O/B boats 15 years ago. Now I would say 30% of the boats there are O/B powered. Almost none are two-stroke.

[powerabout]

It almost as if you are picking a fight in a polite way. Go to any Poker Run or go to any area where there are high end CC's and cats and ask the owners about their 400R's. Talk to any Merc tech and they will tell you the 400R is a very reliable engine. Do your own homework. Not like you are going to buy a 4 stroke anytime soon. I will say again the new four strokes have completely changed the new boat market all the way up and down the line. 25 years ago, when I showed up at a Poker Run with 100 boats, I was the only boat with outboards. Many people laughed at my so-called eggbeaters. I had a 30' Motion cat with triple 280's. The last few years at the Poker Runs there are more 4 stroke outboard boats than I/O's. Same thing in the LOTO Shootout weekend. Very few O/B boats 15 years ago. Now I would say 30% of the boats there are O/B powered. Almost none are two-stroke.

Yes big outboards have changed the game and big hp via boost is where the 4s wins over the 2s. The weight became irrelevant as they went on larger boats.
I guess 2s still rules drag racing
For the big CC with 4-5 outboards how will the market look in 10 years when they might be looking to re-power versus depreciation and 2nd had sales?
Will the repower be the value of the boat as it was?

[Speed Jr.]

Yes big outboards have changed the game and big hp via boost is where the 4s wins over the 2s. The weight became irrelevant as they went on larger boats.
I guess 2s still rules drag racing
For the big CC with 4-5 outboards how will the market look in 10 years when they might be looking to re-power versus depreciation and 2nd had sales?
Will the repower be the value of the boat as it was?

It will be exactly the same as it is now. New boats and motors will be ordered by those with means. Those without will say old junk is better.

BZ, see you next week at LOTO.....Would love to get you out on a few factory test rides we have scheduled....Hopefully bring a big CC home.

[pcrussell50]

It almost as if you are picking a fight in a polite way. Go to any Poker Run or go to any area where there are high end CC's and cats and ask the owners about their 400R's. Talk to any Merc tech and they will tell you the 400R is a very reliable engine. Do your own homework. Not like you are going to buy a 4 stroke anytime soon. I will say again the new four strokes have completely changed the new boat market all the way up and down the line. 25 years ago, when I showed up at a Poker Run with 100 boats, I was the only boat with outboards. Many people laughed at my so-called eggbeaters. I had a 30' Motion cat with triple 280's. The last few years at the Poker Runs there are more 4 stroke outboard boats than I/O's. Same thing in the LOTO Shootout weekend. Very few O/B boats 15 years ago. Now I would say 30% of the boats there are O/B powered. Almost none are two-stroke.


Brad, Don’t fall down the hole of making assumptions about my position re four strokes. I have nothing to say about them that you and anyone else with a clear and unemotional mind doesn’t already know. You don’t want to end up where that other bloke, who only operates on emotion and assumptions generated by internet clickbait, is.


1) I have a four stroke. And I like it fine. It’s a 90 and weighs as much as two stroke carb 150. But that’s no big deal to me. It’s on a Boston Whaler that tops out mid-upper 30’s anyway. And other than the fact that I doubt it will outlast a carb two stroke (even though it’s a Yamaha, which I am a fanboy of), I have no hate for it or plans to replace it unless it goes out one me. I like it enough that I am bummed that parts are already harder to find for it than for 50 year old two strokes. The move to four strokes has created a more disposable culture, where replacement is more attractive than repair in cases where you would definitely repair, if it was a simple two stroke.


2) I did say what everyone who knows, knows. Which is that four strokes do not make the power per displacement that two strokes do. It comes from the laws of physics and 50 years of technology advancement hasn’t been able to break this law. In displacement-based competition, there is an extra displacement allowance for four strokes. This is not news though. It is an engineering given. And has been going at least since motocross came in with huge displacement advantages, 450cc for four stroke to compete against 250cc two stroke, what 30 years ago? Only Mr Assumption guy takes this fact of basic physics and conflates that to mean that people who understand and speak of it, hate four strokes. BTW: Thanks to Ski, who pointed out that Mercury is finding ways to add displacement without adding as much metal/weight. That kind of engineering isn’t cheap of course. Heavy use of expensive computational structural design and modeling methods, expensive complex casting and machining and lots of trial and error to make it strong enough when you are using less metal to save weight). Again. No surprise.


3) Of course, you can’t touch a carb two stroke for economical propulsion, for people who choose to focus their resources more on appreciating assets than depreciating assets (they no houses and kids appreciating more than cars and boats) … or for people who have no choice.

4) perfectly good middle aged hulls out there that struggle under the weight of equivalent power four strokes. Allison XB2002 and XB2003 come to mind here. There are others of course.

***
None of this is hate of four strokes. It’s just physics (and economics). Physics and economics don’t know love or hate. They don’t care about your emotions or your politics. They just are.


-Peter

[David]

I think the 20’ Allison’s can be set up to work fine with the big and heavy engines. Fine until the first bat turn, and then the weight and center of gravity increases the risk of rolling. Non ratcheting gearcases increase the chance of hooking.

The big Allison’s seem awesome with the 300R

[pcrussell50]

I think the 20’ Allison’s can be set up to work fine with the big and heavy engines. Fine until the first bat turn, and then the weight and center of gravity increases the risk of rolling. Non ratcheting gearcases increase the chance of hooking.

The big Allison’s seem awesome with the 300R

i was going by Allison (themselves) stern warning about putting something heavier than a 2.5l on the 2002/2003 siblings. They were already making bigger boats by then for bigger motors.

If you are willing to forgo insurance coverage you can always put something way bigger and heavier than the manufacturer recommends. I’ve seen a Yammie VMax on a Viper on YouTube. It was badass. But you won’t catch me doing it.

Here’s the vid (it’s one of my favourites):
https://youtu.be/IRSjRmBqwEE?si=ytJkkLHMrsitmlR2

it’s a little more than a minute

-Peter

[skialot2]

By the time Mercury stopped selling 2 strokes. there was no cost savings for a 2 stroke over a 4 stroke.

In 2018, the last year Mercury sold Optimax outboards, a 200XL Optimax had a list price of $17,965.00 The same 200XL 4 stroke Verado had a list price of $17,940.00! The Verado was $15.00 less than the Optimax.

As for resale, those same outboards have estimated resale values of $10,160.00 for the Optimax and $9,610.00 for the Verado. A $550.00 difference in favor of the Optimax, but essentially the same.

The 20 year old Yamaha 4 strokes were very dependable motors. They are not hard to find parts for because they all died. They are hard to fine pars for because they only sold a few hundred of them. Unlike the Mercury's that sold thousands of thousands of them.

[pcrussell50]

Sheez, ok Ski. A complex two stroke with air pump and direct injection and all the various controls and sensors to go with it? I remember how expensive the ETECs were and they didn’t even have an air pump… (not to detract in any way from their own complexity issues), but two-stroke DFI? Mate. C’mon. Definitely not a budget option. No wonder even here at S’n’F DFI two strokes are paired in the same tech forum with four strokes. Greg definitely knew what he was doing with that.

In the other countries that sold carb two strokes until 2019, they seemed to sell well. And I still see these “new” carb two strokes when I’m back visiting. It’s fascinating to see the 2019 version of what is essentially my 1986 Yamaha 40 all dressed in more curvy cowlings. In addition to four strokes. Must admit, I don’t remember looking to notice DFI two strokes. I’ll have a look around in October when I’m back there and see what I see.

-Peter

[powerabout]

The e-tec was and is the only sensible dfi.
brp just blew tbe marketing
The e-tec sled is a great performer
Saying that boosted 4s opened a path to big hp.
Weight and fuel economy seem to be forgotten issues.

[skialot2]

Sheez, ok Ski. A complex two stroke with air pump and direct injection and all the various controls and sensors to go with it? I remember how expensive the ETECs were and they didn’t even have an air pump… (not to detract in any way from their own complexity issues), but two-stroke DFI? Mate. C’mon. Definitely not a budget option. No wonder even here at S’n’F DFI two strokes are paired in the same tech forum with four strokes. Greg definitely knew what he was doing with that.

In the other countries that sold carb two strokes until 2019, they seemed to sell well. And I still see these “new” carb two strokes when I’m back visiting. It’s fascinating to see the 2019 version of what is essentially my 1986 Yamaha 40 all dressed in more curvy cowlings. In addition to four strokes. Must admit, I don’t remember looking to notice DFI two strokes. I’ll have a look around in October when I’m back there and see what I see.

-Peter

I am not saying I don't agree with you. I like carb motors. They are a lot simpler and easy to work on. It's all I use. They should be a lot cheaper. But even 20 years ago, the price difference wasn't that much. A 2004 200 Carb motor was $10,659. For around 2K more you could step up to a regular EFI for $12,672. People here were already used to easy starting smooth running EFI in their cars. So that was an easy upsell. Now for just another $1,287 you could get the hi-tech, super fuel efficient, clean running Optimax. $3300 difference from the old tech carb to the hi tech Optimax. 25% more. And with up to 8 years of warranty, what they will cost to fix is an afterthought. I don't know about where you are from, but in this country, most people want the latest and greatest tech and are willing to pay for it. Even if they really cannot afford it.

[pcrussell50]

Australia. Where maritime-related pursuits are a relatively higher percentage of the general population than in the USA. I came to San Diego in 1988 to attend university (San Diego State), and never left. Have an American wife and two little American girls.

Very similar culture to here. Settled around the same time, and by the same kinds of people frustrated by too much government in England. Australians are perhaps a little less inclined to go deep into debt over rapidly depreciating recreational items like boats. A little more pragmatic which is why they continued buying carb two strokes (for the same reasons you and I do), while they were still sold. Until the regulatory noose closed around 2020’ish. There were also modern four stroke of course, as I’m sure DFI two strokes, which for some reason I never paid attention to. :shrugs:

-Peter

[David]

I would not assume that a DFI 2 stroke costs as much to make as an equivalent 4 stroke. Price and manufacturing costs are not the same

[pcrussell50]

I would not assume that a DFI 2 stroke costs as much to make as an equivalent 4 stroke. Price and manufacturing costs are not the same

That’s what I would have thought too. But Ski, who is a pretty smart bloke, gave us pricing data comparing the two as well as carb motors, and based off of his data they were all around the same price.

I can tell you that when I was looking at ETEC 90 and 135/115HO (the 115HO was the 135 with different badging, near as I can tell), they were… eye wateringly expensive. It was almost a joke, they were so expensive. If BRP held onto their pricing strategy to the end, no wonder they went under. But they were fairly light in certain power categories. I’ll give them that.

-Peter

[powerabout]

The 150 3 cyl was probably the best lightest most fuel efficient engine ever.
How was the pricing on that?

[skialot2]

The 150 3 cyl was probably the best lightest most fuel efficient engine ever.
How was the pricing on that?


The 2020 Evinrude 150 3 cylinder had 11 different model numbers available. The lightest one available is listed at 397 lbs. and the heaviest is 433 lbs. I don't know much about Evinrude's, so I picked 2 models at random. A K150WLP listed for $14,185 Now worth about $6500. A K150GXT was $15,445 Now valued around $7100. For comparison a 2020 Mercury Fourstroke 150 was $14,635. Now worth about $8000 and had a listed weight of 455 lbs. A150ProXS listed at $15,210 Now worth around $8600.

A 1976 1500XS Mercury had a listed weight of 285lbs. That is probably the lightest 150HP outboard ever. But, nowhere near as fuel efficient.

[pcrussell50]

The 2020 Evinrude 150 3 cylinder had 11 different model numbers available. The lightest one available is listed at 397 lbs. and the heaviest is 433 lbs. I don't know much about Evinrude's, so I picked 2 models at random. A K150WLP listed for $14,185 Now worth about $6500. A K150GXT was $15,445 Now valued around $7100. For comparison a 2020 Mercury Fourstroke 150 was $14,635. Now worth about $8000 and had a listed weight of 455 lbs. A150ProXS listed at $15,210 Now worth around $8600.

A 1976 1500XS Mercury had a listed weight of 285lbs. That is probably the lightest 150HP outboard ever. But, nowhere near as fuel efficient.

Ski, are you using NADA Guide for this info?

-Peter

[skialot2]

Ski, are you using NADA Guide for this info?

-Peter


Yes. But it is now J.D. Power. J.D Power bought NADA Guides back in 2015.

[powerabout]

Yes. But it is now J.D. Power. J.D Power bought NADA Guides back in 2015.
better to compare the engines of the same year as features were added over the years it all added weight.

[skialot2]

better to compare the engines of the same year as features were added over the years it all added weight.



I compared a 2020 Evinrude 150 3 cylinder to a 2020 Mercury 150 4 cylinder. But neither are the lightest ever. Not even close

[powerabout]

I compared a 2020 Evinrude 150 3 cylinder to a 2020 Mercury 150 4 cylinder. But neither are the lightest ever. Not even close
Sure i should of said lightest on the market
Best emissions and economy ever

[David]

In my limited experience, one opti, two Etecs, zero 4 strokes, the Etec was the best. Service is much easier. Changing opti plugs is a pain.

We know what everything sold for. We don’t know what the motors cost to build.

[David]

A big V8 outboard cat was doing laps of our lake yesterday. It’s 11 miles by 2.5 miles. Usually the offshore crowd run up the center of the lake, but this one ran much closer to shore. I was surprised how loud it was.

Offshore cats are on my list of things that are interesting that I would never want.