1978 Cigarette 20’

[JV1]

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I own a 1978 Cigarette 20’

Was originally equipped with a big block and TRS outdrive; which are long gone.
The transom needs restoration and I’m considering converting it to outboard.

My “daily driver” so to speak is an old Formula 17’ hull. It’s a pretty rare boat, 24 degree deep V, with a rounded keel and it’s powered by a Mercury 150; currently runs 56mph with 40 gallons of fuel.

My thoughts are that the Cigarette’s hull is a lot like the Formula’s and similar rigging should met similar results.

I’ve received some complaints about the idea by Cigarette restoration purists, but my humble opinion is that this hull can be adequately propelled with 250hp outboard instead of an I/O setup.

I’m also debating mounting the engine directly on the transom vs an engine bracket, along with 20” or 25” engine shaft sizes?

What do you guys think?
Thanks in advance!!

[FUJIMO]

...that would be a cry'n shame. thats what i think. buy & install a new mercruiser/bravo package. extremely easy to do as well. thats my two cents...

[FUJIMO]

https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=518890&d=1684021116

[JV1]

...that would be a cry'n shame. thats what i think. buy & install a new mercruiser/bravo package. extremely easy to do as well. thats my two cents...

Totally get where you’re coming from, I do, but I must respectfully disagree.

I was originally contemplating going with an LS3/Bravo combination instead of the much heavier big block, but the more I looked at it, an outboard’s power to weight ratio is hard to beat.

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I enjoy a lot of river and bay running with my Mercury 150hp powered 1971 17’ Formula (pictured above) It’s capable of running near WOT for hours pretty economically too.

The Cigarette is just three feet longer and actually has a much lower freeboard. Rigging it with a 250hp outboard, instead of what it originally had would shave off at least 800 pounds; which really is a lot of unnecessary weight for her sexy hull to have to carry around. lol

In a perfect world, I would just try to find an old Apache Scout (Gotta love those wave crushing NE188st hull layups) instead of starting this “restomod” process.

Unfortunately or fortunately for me, my Cigarette 20’ is paid for and she’s got the look.

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[Jim Speros]

I agree with Fujimo. I follow your reasoning. I don't think you'll reduce 800 lbs and your adding weight off the transom and seems likely on a bracket. Huge change in CG.

[JV1]

I agree with Fujimo. I follow your reasoning. I don't think you'll reduce 800 lbs and you’re adding weight off the transom and seems likely on a bracket. Huge change in CG.

Thanks for your opinion ��

Actually thinking of attaching the outboard directly into the transom (with well) in the exact same way Mr Saccenti did with the final version of his Apache Scouts; which worked out better than hanging the engine a foot off the back on a bracket.

Original fuel tank is nasty and being tossed in favor for a new one; so tank placement and location can be optimized.

A Mercury 250hp Verado weighs around 600 pounds, whisper quiet, reliable and economical.
How much does a complete big block or small block/bravo outdrive package weigh?

[mragu]

JV, Did you buy that from a guy named Harris?

[JV1]

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Funny story….

I restore Corvettes
One day an all original 1963 Split Window Fuel Injection Corvette rolled in.
It was a complete running original car and probably worth $100k.

The owner says he wants to “RestoMod” it. He goes on and on about a new LS3, 6-speed transmission, a Viper rear end, new chassis and modern Corvette suspension……

At first I thought, he’s just crazy, who in their right mind would do such a thing?

He went on to explain that in all original shape it was a pain in the butt to drive, real horse & buggy, didn’t stop very well, required lots of maintenance, sucked on gas and wasn’t really all that fast.

After two years, it’s near completion and it is an amazing car. It will completely blow away an original one, get 24+ mpg, be an extremely quick 1/4 mile car, have an unbelievable top speed, will stop on way less than a dime. Best of all, will be valued in the $300k range too.

It’s honestly the first time in nearly 40 years of Corvette restoration that I can honestly say the customer was 100% correct and I was totally wrong. Understand?

[JV1]

JV, Did you buy that from a guy named Harris?

Don’t remember his name, came from north Florida, nice guy.

[JV1]

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Upon removal of the front floor section I was greeted with this.☝️

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After several hours of foam removal….

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Still not all removed, but most of that nasty stuff is outta there, lol

[FUJIMO]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2c/5c/52/2c5c52f89a5bedd121bac04275dfeb5e.jpg

[FUJIMO]

...a couple years back, dino cancilliari, commissioned lip-ship performance, a miami cigarette dealer, to have cigarette racing resurface the old 20' molds & build him the first 20 footer in over 10 years. this is a photo of the bravo one transom cutout of dino's boat...https://i.pinimg.com/originals/74/0e/28/740e2858411495435ce278265753dc0c.jpg

[JV1]

...a couple years back, dino cancilliari, commissioned lip-ship performance, a miami cigarette dealer, to have cigarette racing resurface the old 20' molds & build him the first 20 footer in over 10 years. this is a photo of the bravo one transom cutout of dino's boat...https://i.pinimg.com/originals/74/0e/28/740e2858411495435ce278265753dc0c.jpg


I’ve seen that build somewhere, Ilmore equipped and sold for like $100k, if I remember correctly.
Turned out beautiful.

[FUJIMO]

...yup. he had 200 into it. cigarette priced the 20 way out of the market intentionally. they do not want to build them. they didn't then, and they still don't...

[JV1]

...yup. he had 200 into it. cigarette priced the 20 way out of the market intentionally. they do not want to build them. they didn't then, and they still don't...


All the more reason for me to build mine my way, lol

So, whatta ya’ll think, 25” or 20” transom cut?

[Jim Speros]

Looks like your not afraid of a project. I am starting to bow to your thoughts. Adding a splashwell is the way to go.

I too like the Build it my way. Make it yours. Be sure to share pix of your project.

Cheers

[Jim Speros]

Just guessing but, I would aim for a 20 inch engine. Probably create about a 25 inch transom.

[Jim Speros]

STR makes a slick 1 3/4' adjustable engine bracket that might suit your needs and allow some fine tuning.

[JV1]

Looks like your not afraid of a project. I am starting to bow to your thoughts. Adding a splashwell is the way to go.

I too like the Build it my way. Make it yours. Be sure to share pix of your project.

Cheers

Thanks!!

So, a 20” engine shaft length on a 25” transom height huh?

[JV1]

Some might consider this sacrilege, but here’s my 1st conceptual drawing..518926

[Instigator]

I just converted a single big block/Bravo powered 25’ Checkmate to twin OB two strokes.

According to my match, including the bracket, I added 200 lbs.

I think I figured a 454/Bravo was approx 900 lbs.

I like your ‘63 Vette analogy but…., don’t think I can agree on that car.
Buy something similar and cut it up to give your customer what he wants.

You have a cool project, idea.

Do it!

[JV1]

I just converted a single big block/Bravo powered 25’ Checkmate to twin OB two strokes.

According to my match, including the bracket, I added 200 lbs.

I think I figured a 454/Bravo was approx 900 lbs.

You have a cool project, idea.

Do it!

Thanks

Do you have pictures or a build thread?

[Greg G]

You won't be happy with an OB conversion on the 20. The combo of a round keel and a way off CG will produce odd handling. If the 24 degree bottom were a straight V it would be different. Put that Cig on a scale first, they are heavy. What 250 OB would you use?

[FUJIMO]

...gator, 1,100 pounds mounted 3 feet-ish back off the transom of a light 25 footer. amazing. the 20 cigarette proposal will be comparable...

[FUJIMO]

You won't be happy with an OB conversion on the 20. The combo of a round keel and a way off CG with produce odd handling. If the 24 degree bottom were a straight V it would be different. I did an OB on my Ultra and never really worked right PLUS put that Cig on a scale first, they are heavy.
...scott layman was the sales manager at cigarette in the 80's & 90's. he was still young, so he built himself a new cigarette 21 hull & deck at cost, that they very rarely built, which were always inboard boats of course. (other than very few 31 decathelon center console boats, cigarette didn't want anything to do with outboards, ever.) the provenance, and best performance, of owning any aronow cigarettes, of any size, was that they are all inboard boats. anyways, my buddy scott decided to rig it with a 300 johnrude on a bracket, and go race it in class "a" offshore against the competition at the time. this was 1988 & 1989, etc. he did not do well with the boat due to its poor speed & poor handling & bad center of gravity balance that he could never get right, versus the other boats out there. i felt bad for him after every race, telling us how he did. talk to him, he will tell you all about outboards on older cigarette hulls. he is still in the marine business. believe it or not greg g above, helped him rig it, after hours, when it was new...

[JPEROG]

Flip it over, add a pad like a Stroker bass boat that will carry big weight. Strengthen the transom, and bolt new 300R on it with an 8" Porta bracket. You can offset the weight up front and with a big pad run 80+ safely.

That would be my route-some will like it, some won't, but you will outrun the majority of them and look really cool doing it.

Joe

[JV1]

You won't be happy with an OB conversion on the 20. The combo of a round keel and a way off CG will produce odd handling. If the 24 degree bottom were a straight V it would be different. Put that Cig on a scale first, they are heavy. What 250 OB would you use?

Guessing you were around 188th back in the day. I also imagine you might be very familiar with both my Cigarette 20’ and possibly remember my Thunderbird Formula F17’ outboard hull built there too?

Anyway, my Formula 17’s hull is very close to the Cigarette’s. Same deadrise, same round keel and pretty much the same beam; if the strakes weren’t different, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Cigarette 20’ wasn’t a stretched splash of the Formula, lol

I totally agree that the rounded keel has its limitations, my Formula gets a little loose over 55mph trimmed up high; I believe extending the strakes to the transom might improve ride quality a lot too.

I really like the 250 Verado a lot too.

Might you recall the fuel tank location of the outboard Cigarette you rigged back in the day?

[JV1]

Flip it over, add a pad like a Stroker bass boat that will carry big weight. Strengthen the transom, and bolt new 300R on it with an 8" Porta bracket. You can offset the weight up front and with a big pad run 80+ safely.

That would be my route-some will like it, some won't, but you will outrun the majority of them and look really cool doing it.

Joe


You Sir, have my attention!! Lol

Adding a Pad or even just putting a point on the keel would set things right.

I just need to figure out the fuel tank location.

80 mph would be insane, I’d actually be fine if I could get it 65+ speeds myself.

[Greg G]

...........

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[Instigator]

On the round keel, let’s remember that both my twin OB 24’ Sonics had them too as that hull started life as a single IO 55 mph Donzi.

I had been watching them a while when talking to a Sonic dealer who told me “they are a drivers boat”.

That was all I needed to hear!

As you can see, it (and my second one) ran fairly well (80).

[JV1]

On the round keel, let’s remember that both my twin OB 24’ Sonics had them too as that hull started life as a single IO 55 mph Donzi.

I had been watching them a while when talking to a Sonic dealer who told me “they are a drivers boat”.

That was all I needed to hear!

As you can see, it (and my second one) ran fairly well (80).

Great picture!!

Round keel & short inner strakes too… that’s interesting

Does your dual counter rotating outboard setup tame that “loose” tendency common on these round bottom hulls?

[matt83]

On the round keel, let’s remember that both my twin OB 24’ Sonics had them too as that hull started life as a single IO 55 mph Donzi.

I had been watching them a while when talking to a Sonic dealer who told me “they are a drivers boat”.

That was all I needed to hear!

As you can see, it (and my second one) ran fairly well (80).

Is that in the Livingstone channel ?

[matt83]

Its easier to just pull the deck to do all that work instead of cutting the floor. The boat will run ok with an outboard. If your happy with 65 maybe 70ish it should do that with a 300. There has been an outboard 22 donzi before. The really high HP cig 20s had 380 k planes, high x dimensions and quite a bit of setup and money into them. Nothing wrong with what I see ya doing, hope to see it complete.

[Jim Speros]

Joe has a great idea. I have no argument on any of it. It will be expensive.
I had a friend with an 80 MPH TRS 20 cig in the late '80's. A great running boat. Another friend at the same time had one with a stern power jacked to the moon. Went faster until it pitched him out of it bad one day.
Donzi's and Sonics had round bottoms and run ok. I like a pad boat for speed but, some ride so hard they rattle your teeth.
On the tank location, a properly located tank is centered over the CG. Where the the CG was as a Big Block TRS boat was what I would aim for. The more you set the engine back off transom the more weight forward will be necessary.
Some hunt for every last mile an hour. Some savor a good handling, nice ride. It is difficult and expensive to have it all.

SO you have a lot to mull over.

[JV1]

Joe has a great idea. I have no argument on any of it. It will be expensive.
I had a friend with an 80 MPH TRS 20 cig in the late '80's. A great running boat. Another friend at the same time had one with a stern power jacked to the moon. Went faster until it pitched him out of it bad one day.
Donzi's and Sonics had round bottoms and run ok. I like a pad boat for speed but, some ride so hard they rattle your teeth.
On the tank location, a properly located tank is centered over the CG. Where the the CG was as a Big Block TRS boat was what I would aim for. The more you set the engine back off transom the more weight forward will be necessary.
Some hunt for every last mile an hour. Some savor a good handling, nice ride. It is difficult and expensive to have it all.

SO you have a lot to mull over.

I’m still trying to figure this out and appreciate all inputs.

My thoughts so far are to try to set it up similar to my 17’ Formula, with a few modifications to the hull. Them being to extend the inner strakes to end at the transom and possibly sharpen the keel. A pad might reduce rough water comfort, but I’m still considering it too.

As far as the engine, I’m pretty much set on mounting it on the transom and fabricating a nice splash well. Final fuel tank location would have to be determined, but placement will probably start where the big block was, but once again that would probably be depending how it sits in the water with the engine in place.

If anyone has any ideas where the stock CG for the Cigarette 20’, that would be welcome too.
Thanks fellas!!

[JV1]

Just found this, does anyone recognize it?

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[Greg G]

Yes, it is a 1993 18 Classic that was converted over to OB. Last I heard it was owned by a guy named Ron and for sale back around 2020. There was also a one off factory 22 Classic OB that never ran right but was used for V8 OB testing years back.

[JV1]

Yes, it is a 1993 18 Classic that was converted over to OB. Last I heard it was owned by a guy named Ron and for sale back around 2020. There was also a one off factory 22 Classic OB that never ran right but was used for V8 OB testing years back.

Thanks!
Any word on the performance & handling verdict of this particular conversion?

[JV1]

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Been talking with a guy that actually had a 20’ Cigarette (looks like a “Son of a Gun” or a “splash” of one) converted to outboard. Said it ran pretty good in rough water at close to 60 mph with a 225 Optimax; which is about what could be expected, considering how heavy duty they’re constructed.

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This conversion has a bracket, which is definitely something I’ll seriously look into.

[JV1]

Here’s a quick YouTube video of it.

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https://youtube.com/shorts/hAqFfTndYn0?feature=share

[skialot2]

As far as the engine, I’m pretty much set on mounting it on the transom and fabricating a nice splash well.

I like the idea of a splash well. But I would think about mounting it on a small 4" bracket just for the adjustability.

[mr fun]

Thanks for the great read , lots of thought inspiring content . having a 18 Donzi i'm finishing up as an O/B sit down cemter steer I'm leaving the bottom alone , focus on all around fairly quick to run the KIR runs and keep everybody in sight and enjoy the sandbar fellowship , so in the end ,,, YOU DO YOU :iagree: :cheers: :D ( so I'll just keep my # 6 w/1350 thoughts to myself :eek: ) Fun Out :cool:

[Greg G]

You would be amazed at what you can find out there ............

[NICE PAIR]

I’m still trying to figure this out and appreciate all inputs.

My thoughts so far are to try to set it up similar to my 17’ Formula, with a few modifications to the hull. Them being to extend the inner strakes to end at the transom and possibly sharpen the keel. A pad might reduce rough water comfort, but I’m still considering it too.

As far as the engine, I’m pretty much set on mounting it on the transom and fabricating a nice splash well. Final fuel tank location would have to be determined, but placement will probably start where the big block was, but once again that would probably be depending how it sits in the water with the engine in place.

If anyone has any ideas where the stock CG for the Cigarette 20’, that would be welcome too.
Thanks fellas!!

I did some fairly serious mods to my 28 Skater including tanks. After I finished, and all went well, I imagined the tanks being mounted so they could be moved fore and aft with out a major tear down. Center tank in your boat, screw down floor until some float and test runs? Nice project, the 250 Verado is a great choice. :D

[Greg G]

Been talking with a guy that actually had a 20’ Cigarette (looks like a “Son of a Gun” or a “splash” of one) converted to outboard. Said it ran pretty good in rough water at close to 60 mph with a 225 Optimax; which is about what could be expected, considering how heavy duty they’re constructed.

This conversion has a bracket, which is definitely something I’ll seriously look into.

Where do you stand with your Cig OB conversion project?

[mr fun]

Some hunt for every last mile an hour. Some savor a good handling, nice ride. It is difficult and expensive to have it all.

SO you have a lot to mull over.[/QUOTE]


Just like women

[Greg G]

Did you finish your 18?