Evinrude MegaSquirt Injection ECU

[Boosting]

I was talking to some one re; E Tec Injection, taking about MegaSqurt ECU working very well, anyone care to comment? thanks

[rgsauger]

Welcome to scream and fly! Search for squirt and you’ll probably find some info on it.

[David - WI]

I was talking to some one re; E Tec Injection, taking about MegaSqurt ECU working very well, anyone care to comment? thanks

At the time I bought my MegaSquirt, the developers (Bowling & Grippo?) had absolutely no intention of doing any direct-injection (at least, not with MegaSquirt).

[BLisBack!]

Way more complex than EFI needs to be! And definitely not 2 stroke focused, no that it can't do 2 stroke just not built from the start for that platform. No touchscreen interface either which is trick like VSFI.

-BL

[PanRonnie]

Well that's not correct!

https://dd-efi.com/

And you can use the cheap 7 inch raspberry display with a full version of tunerstudio!
Not 2 stroke focused?
What does that mean ?

[H2OPERF]

There is alot of new stuff out there but not much is geared to be used around Water, anything with general use d-sub style rectangular connectors wont last long around the water. Molded O ringed housings and mating connectors with sealed wire grommets and coated boards are the only thing that will last around salt water even just the Salt air. The new fueltech like gordon at monty racing is using boast to be water proof and is a single unit dash /ecu all in one pretty cool. I think on the initial post ... he may have been mislead an was talking about adding standard EFI to an etec based powerhead, my guess anyway.

[PanRonnie]

There are some other options than the complete diy options
If you do a fuel only version a v2.2 can be enough with JB peak and hold boards if you want to use low impendance injectors with the 4 channels and you build your own casing
The same with the ms3 pro module board but 8 channels high impendance drivers no idea if you can reroute the logic level high to drive low impendance boards like you can on the v2.2
Or you can buy an Ultimate which is not very cheap anymore :eek:

[BLisBack!]

Well that's not correct!

https://dd-efi.com/

And you can use the cheap 7 inch raspberry display with a full version of tunerstudio!
Not 2 stroke focused?
What does that mean ?

You could do that but.... That software (tunerstudio) was designed for a desktop not a 7" screen. It would be like viewing a desktop website on your mobile device. Very awkward and frustrating. VSFI touchscreen SW was designed for a 7" screen and made to be operated at speed in a boat, not in a chair behind a desk. You need no extra SW, no drivers, no updates, no plugins, no specific OS, nothing. And the ECU will run without it if desired.

On designed for 2 strokes....

VSFI was designed specifically for 2 strokes and it can meet timing to 12k rpm because it has 3 parallel cores. The processing for ignition, fuel and touchscreen are performed by 3 processing cores in parallel. No one big processor, even if it is 32 bit, will be able to make timing consistently, interrupts will have to be prioritized. Furthermore, I'll send you the waveforms and logic analyzer output to prove it. Who at FuelTech is gonna do that? NOBODY!

VSFI has two crank sensors, one for after start when the ECU knows the rpm, the second is for a magneto like circuit during cranking before rpm is known. This allows instant starts in under one crank rev (for an outboard starting in gear this is key). VSFI also has a primer circuit to allow for instant starts, no need to crank 2,3,4 revs before the fuel fills the crankcase and gets into the chambers, and certainly no need for starting fluid or having to start at full timing. (not needed on 4 strokes obviously)

Speaking of timing, VSFI allows engine and injector timing to be controlled from the dashboard with BIG buttons, not burried in a menu system designed for desktop computers. VSFI has integrated engine starting and integrated charging, FuelTech don't think so.

Boats are very noisy environment electrically, no natural "faraday cage" of a car chassis. VSFI is 100% optically isolated, the CPUs are 100% isolated from the wiring harness to prevent false triggers and ensure stability. FuelTec nope.

There's much more as well, how about timing reduction during prop blow-out? FuelTec answer you phone! FuelTec and MegaSquirt simply can't compare. So lets say you come up with something your boat needs like a diff nitrous enrichment algorithm, think you're gonna get support from FuelTec? Ha! With VSFI, I'll work with you to get it right so it matches you setup. You're on your own with other systems.

Its basically a system designed from scratch from someone in the boating community. Although it did win its first race installed on a twin turbo BBC making 1700hp in a car.:p

-BL

[BLisBack!]

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, I'm not out to just bust on other ECUs. 15yrs ago when I was considering EFI for my outboard I looked at the Mega Squirt system and said to myself "man that seems awfully complex, there has to be a simpler way". The formula for the period using for speed density is crazy! I thought, why not just deliver a period X milliseconds long and let the user adjust it as he is going down the river? Would that even work? Base it off the throttle position in a simple 2D map. I said to myself, why don't I build something like that, I have 35+ years experience in EE and embedded software, I'm up on all the latest CPUs and MCUs! So I did (VSFI), but I did it with the latest stuff from scratch not downloading DIY designs off the web or using some pirated OEM system that had its roots in the 70s from some European car manufacturer (there are several like that).

Turns out what I just described is known as an "Alpha-N" system, and works great for most applications. I like to call it a TPS based system (Throttle Position Sensor). You simply tune your period at speed holding the hand held tuner, up for rich, down for lean. Then the ECU can save it or simply use it as a trim to an existing saved map. Works like a champ! Then I went back an implemented the Speed Density formula for that type of system using a MAP sensor (Manifold Pressure). Works but not really necessary for outboards.

Fact of the matter I discovered is this... these 2 stroke motors will suck down just about any mix at WOT given the ignition timing is correct. It don't matter what is mixing the fuel, carb, simple batch injector system, precise port injection or bubba with a spray can of gumout :D With EFI you can vary the period up to two milliseconds when using EFI if the system allows you to do so in real time (hand held tuner, steam wheel etc). It really is that simple, just a matter of whether the ECU allows you to do easily. So the overly complex Mega Squirt system was de-bunked.

Now, other things, where it really is challenging is low speeds, idle, starting under all temps. Starting is the most challenging moment for an ECU. Its where the noise in the system is the highest from the starter and spark is usually the weakest for if you're running an OEM magneto type system. The OEMs went to DFI because the wanted better low speed control and better emissions. At WOT there is simply no diff to the motor, if the mix is right it burns it. There are other challenges as well there's EMI, Transient Voltage spikes, Fly-back Voltage spikes, ground bounce and other stuff :D. But a good HW design can handle that as I talked about above.

So really what EFI gives you is: easier faster starting, low speed control, ability to control ignition timing, ability to control main fuel and extra fuel for enrichment (thinking nitrous here) and emissions (which nobody outside the OEMs cares about, its simply a fart in a hurricane to the handful of users that may have their setup too rich). If you're not into that, stick with carbs, the motor will not know the diff at WOT (for the most part). Besides, fuel rails packed with 60psi of fuel on each side of the motor is actually pretty dangerous if a rod lets go!

Sorry for the rant :)

-BL

[BLisBack!]

Oh, one other thing, when going up and down on the period in real time, use the EGTs as a good guide to how far you can go :D

-BL

[PanRonnie]

I would not call the MS1 complex, the original EFI 332 pproject maybe which is why they did the fuel only controllers with the first V1.1 boards
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mintro.htm

this is essentially the calculation
pulse width = Req_Fuel × VE(rpm,kpa) × MAP × E + Injector_open_time

Later came the V2.2 boards which i still have with the injector flyback boards for low impendance injectors! great times wire your money through western union to Al Grippo and hope you get your stuff
then order the Digikey BOM and pick up your soldering iron
I always viewed megasquirt as a way to teach your self about EFI or eletronic fuel injection the ignition part was only later added for distributors
somebody did a code version for 6 ignition outputs on the MS1 but this was very taxing and they ran out of ram
The MS2 was a major step forward with added capability,s

That was one of the best times on the forum with multiple people writing addons as you could assemble the code, that is how i managed the mercury 60-6 code version
but as megasquirt has become more proffesional it has also become closed off which i find disappointing, the forum is also low on traffic so it really shows

But because of the DIY solder options you are very free to do what you want with it
so to get back to the original quistion of the evinrude ETEC injectors
they run at a higher voltage than 12 volt, i think it is 40 volts for both the Ficht and the ETEC injecctors which is not a problem as you could build a driver box with Mosfets watercooled
the problem comes with the ETEC that has 40 volts system ECU regulated as opposed tot the Ficht system
now it has been a time since i was looking into this just for fun but you run into so many problems you should ask yourself is it worth it

probably easier to do just normal port injection and go from there
i spent way to much time messing with this stuff and now just want to enjoy being actually on the water
at the moment just datalogging with the megasquirts nothing else atleast not on the water maybe end of this summer see what i can do with my itty bitty screen on the boat
see if you can get to a usable fuel mapping quick with just adjusting the required fuel VE value and the autotune part of Tunerstudio it worked quit well with the laptop on the boat but i could not keep an eye on it as the screen would start to lay flat when bouncing on the waves

so now i have a raspberry 4 4 gigabyte with a sunlight readable screen it works with touch but a keyboard is still handier :thumbsup:

https://youtu.be/Yj7RWXqNd_w
pulse width = Req_Fuel × VE(rpm,kpa) × MAP × E + Injector_open_time

[BLisBack!]

That's interesting that they went to closed source. I wonder if it was due to liability? Good stuff nonetheless, glad to see there are others that like to take full control of their engines!

I tried the laptop thing early on and that was as you said impossible. I experimented with an app on my phone (iPhone) and a wifi chipset in the ECU. It worked but a smart phone screen is just too small and the certification crap to get an app on an iPhone is plain crazy. 7" touchscreen is the way to go but due to parts availability issues they are hard to get right now. With Linux running on the touchscreen, and Qt/QML for the GUI you can put together smoe slick stuff for small screens.

I think the eTec injectors are AC not DC. You just need a H-bridge circuit to drive them and maybe a power supply, external or SMPS. But like you said, why? With port injectors I can do just as much although the starting and idle could be even smoother which is why OEMs use them so much, but if you want nitrous enrichment, I don't think it will work through the OEM DFI injectors.

-BL

[InjectorService]

Etec injectors are a square wave A/C 55v.

https://i.postimg.cc/BvQY2SHw/e-Tec-Injector-Waveform-and-Amp-Draw.jpg (https://postimg.cc/dhpjYKW8)

https://i.postimg.cc/kG8f7BPD/e-Tec-Cleaning-Waveform.jpg (https://postimg.cc/1VmpHRtZ)

[BLisBack!]

What is ch1 on the first waveform?

-BL

[Boosting]

Thanks for the replys, lots to think about...sorry for the late reply...Ive lots of stuff going on right now....

[InjectorService]

What is ch1 on the first waveform?

-BL

Honestly I'm not sure. I had a custom circuit board printed to run some etec injectors. This was a few years back. Based on it being a 2v signal, I'm thinking it had to do with that board specificly, but the bottom waveform shows the amp draw of an eTec injector.

[PanRonnie]

forgot i had these! :leaving:

[BLisBack!]

Interesting. Sounds so good (the etec_injector pdf) yet they still couldn't sell 'em. Even when they could pull a 4-stroke backwards and sink the boat Lol. There's some serious business marketing lessons there to be learned.

-BL

[PanRonnie]

The same problem with the yamaha hpdi
Economy of scale if you have to build everything yourself instead of getting parts of the shelf product cost and maintaince get to high

[BLisBack!]

I think the market simply went away. The trend was for low speed control and required emissions. Although the eTec did both slick marketing (like buying the boat company to ensure your motor gets installed on them) and the fact that 4 strokes were eventually going to be making way more power than the 2 stroke with the advent of micro sized superchargers that fit under the cowl, the OEMs decided to abandon the 2 stroke.

I remember years ago 20? when I got into hi-perf boating a friend of mine from the automotive racing world where I came from said "why don't you take one of those new Honda 4-stroke motors and put a blower on and smoke all those 2 strokes out there" :D Little did he know the industry was going that direction.

-BL

[Chaz]

BL , I've loosely followed along since you started posting about your ECU or system if it uses a different harness and sensors.

As far as OMC is concerned, I believe your a bit off on your statement's about other systems. The Motec that Monty has used in his multi-world championship drag boats is well proven. Expensive, but well proven.
A few years ago @ the Snowbird Nat's in Bradenton, he went over to the Fuel Tech people and struck a deal to become a dealer. Wanting full factory support on his installs, he called numerous times. They picked up the phone or answered e-mails .. promptly. If you do the same, that's just good business.
Joe Simpson says they have good tech support .. because they have to. From what I've witnessed, that's just not the case. But then, he has more or less migrated over to the Holley system.

Squirt box's .. are considered bottom of the food chain because they never shook of the stigma of being a build your own .. low dollar kit. I weld aluminum, stainless and chromoly every day. Solder, not so much. Electronics, even less. So kits are out as far as I'm concerned.
However, I do remember fondly cruising past the DIY Autotune booth @ the PRI show and seeing their MS-3 box submerged in a fish aquarium running 8 sparkplugs on a test board on the table. I have no clue what type of connectors they use, but I would have to think they are quality pieces.
As far as being complex. With all the application's that they can cover and the features that they provide in one unit, as long as you can feed the drop down box's the correct information there should be no issues. If there are, there is an official forum as well as a half a dozen others on fakebook.

Mercury ... as Sensi Ronnie stated, he has a handle on the -6 tooth flywheel. It's a Land Rover code I believe.
I am a 3.0L based guy. They haven't made the 300x in almost 20 years. Yet the **** ******* still think that they can sue a private owner / programer or land him in jail, if they convert a 225/250 box into a 300x box. Which is all done with a change in software. I've got news for them, their Woodword / Motorola tune-up is nothing to write home about.
I still have multiple calls, texts, PM's and e-mails, monthly .. asking for reed adapter plates and reprogramed or aftermarket box's.

Here is a hit list of importance .. as far as I'm concerned.

Individual fuel and spark tables. A up - down button is good for getting it to run on the hose, but does nothing for those of us that want to actually tune the motor as the six individual single cylinder engines that they really are.

MAP / TPI / RPM based.

I don't really care about the motor turning 360 or 720 degree's to find itself, before it will start. But I can see where it might be a nice feature.

Electric oil pump. These motors idle @ 100 : 1 and go to 40 : 1 @ WFO. What range of HZ that entails, I couldn't tell ya .. but that part they got right.

Of course it would need a low oil bag alarm. The tank has a float switch, two wires so that would be easy ... but necessary.

The props are heavy and the lower unit gears are made of glass, so a real shift interrupt switch is needed. There is a two wire switch in place but the software seems to be a bit hit or miss. And when the little plastic rubbing block wears .. the motor won't run in gear.

Six EGT inputs would be nice as would two O-2 inputs. Maybe with alarms, which would cut way back on aluminum slag.

Are the above really nescessary .. only if you want to sell semi- plug and play units to the public. At least thru me anyway. Because I won't sell something I wouldn't use myself.

Naa-trouzz ... adding supplemental fuel thru already over taxed injectors would limit HP potential .. as would sourcing from the pizz water fuel from main tank. Anybody that has really run nitrous knows that a wet system running 120 octane / toluene / E-85 or methanol is the only way to go. The only job of the ECU would be to cut the timing in half, from say 28* down to 14* - 15* and further if over 100 additional HP is the goal ..

I do applaud your efforts in applying an aftermarket unit to a seemingly dwindling market share. While not available new on the showroom floor, we both know that there is still a booming 2-stroke cottage industry, that could give a rat-zass about what the bowling ball has to offer ... :thumbsup:

[BLisBack!]

Chaz;

Thanks for loosely following;)

Agreed, cannot discount proven success, especially MoTec in many diff racing applications. Just simply trying to state there are specific 2/stroke outboard features whether deemed necessary or not that they don't provide. I stand behind the fact that whereas their support may be good, they won't change design for any one person. I'm spinning version 8.0 right now with individual cyl EGTs fast/slow injector controllers and 16 channels for injectors (nos enrichment), multiple CAN channels. Any ideas you like to see in there? Thats my point.

VSFI uses the same connectors as Squirt (4 TE Ampseal 35 pos). They are very good.

The up/down buttons are definitely for at speed! Not just hose. Thats how I tune a map, watch the EGTs, go up/down on the handheld to get in range. And thats my point with Ronnie, TPS/Alpha-N is all you need, way simpler, not speed density. Works great! But the other systems can do that also. My only worry is the injector that may be dirty and you try to go to the edge watching a two bank EGT gauge, can be destructive. But thats with any EFI unit, why I think individual EGTs are a must. Now VSFI integrates them into the touchscreen and has alarms. I doubt any others do that, but I could be wrong. That up/down tune handheld is the Chit! I'm always playing with that at all speeds. It will teach you so much and how it works with ignition timing is amazing. Timing up, loves it lean, timing down, better richen it up. Essentials we've all know for years but seeing in real time is so cool. I think most systems have that feature anyway?

With NOS there are separate injectors for the NOS, you can run alcohol through them or when using a smaller 50hp jet on the NOS gas will work.

My real goal in all this was the challenge to make the 2-stroke have all the low speed control, smooth and fast start capability of an OEM system, and do it with port injection which is much more scalable than OEM DFI. No spray can to start, no locked ignition timing, no idling up to dock at 2000rpm and a slick dedicated touchscreen.

Thanks for the good input, interesting stuff.

-BL

[BLisBack!]

517771
Duel fuel rails (one for additional 6 injectors for enrichment) on an ETec.


https://www.screamandfly.com/blob:https://www.screamandfly.com/af861c12-8185-4b37-a0fb-16622d7cb1da
-BL

Some examples of custom things that are being added by request that other ECU system (DIY or high-end) simply can't do;

On the website there is an old Sea Ray with Mercruiser 330 BBC and a Merctrans transmission. Those old electric shift Merctrans units are known for not shifting completely into gear, sometimes they only move the actuator halfway and put the transmission between gears. This causes the forward clutch to not fully engage and slip and eventually burn up, usually half way to your destination. VSFI is going to add a sensor for those applications on the shift solenoid with an indicator integrated into the touch screen to alert the driver if the transmission is not fully engaged. With alarm. This will be on the dash tab of the touchscreen.

Another, there is going to be an addition of a video tab on the touchscreen that allows the user to place a camera anywhere. Engine room on bigger boats, drive shaft packing seals etc. or maybe on the transom for single outboard boats for more info on your setup at speed.

Any other ideas?

[H2OPERF]

Not to Discount your efforts in any way I love what your doing but Most high end Ecus can do just about anything these days... yes, they dont have toutch screens, support sucks and they think everyone should have gone to EFI univeristy, but you can set up the inputs and outputs to do most anything from on/off, and- and /or-or to adding a complete X&Y tables to run an accesory. I have my emtron running the alternator field controlling the voltage, turning it off at certain throttle positons. I'm running a dfi style oil pump for extra skirt/center main and upper main oiling with undiluted 2 srtrioke oil so lots can be done.

[BLisBack!]

I'm running a dfi style oil pump for extra skirt/center main and upper main oiling with undiluted 2 srtrioke oil so lots can be done.
:thumbsup:

That’s cool, I like that. You guys don’t see a need for a primer? Using the injectors of course. Letting the cold temp algorithm handle that alone causes long cranking starts when cold or after the motor has been off for an hour or two but not ice cold.

and cold start alone can sometimes flood if the motor wasn’t that cold.

-BL

[BLisBack!]

Also, why not set your system up as Alpha-N/TPS only? Then the injector on time is simply a period in milliseconds, longer period richer, shorter leaner. No need to know FR, VE, BSFC, MAP, Bar etc or even temps if you want to go ultra simple. There are no hills on the water (‘cep offshore:D) so no case where the MAP deviates from the TPS. And especially for drag where the TPS usually 100% anyway.

-BL

[PanRonnie]

you can change start enrichment according to headtemp
If you have MAP as load and only run a single Map sensor you can incorperate the barometrich pressure in the base map
at time barometric pressue does not get higher than lets say 98 your full throttle fuel map will stay in the 98 rows at a 102 KPa it get to the higher rows
fuel demand follows the torque curve which is more easy to understand when you see a MAP load
But you can run Alpha N for low rpms and switch to MAP for higher rpms same as the mercury ecu,s

[H2OPERF]

The emtron has 4 main start enrichment tables, A pre crank prime like you are talking about which has multiple ways to enable, key on, first firing event or first crank index ... then you can set fuel amount on a table based on temp over ms pulse which can be a single or i think up to 8 pulses. Then you have a time in seconds over temp based % enrichment table and a firing events over temp based enrichment... I have those tables fading at about a minute then you end up in into the regular temperature over load based % enrichment which have zeroing out at about 95 degrees on my set up. Basically you can spend a week on start enrichment tables alone.

[Instigator]

As basic as my Mad EFI was, one of the programs I really liked was the cold start.

That taught me how your perfect program was changed by any ambient change.

What was perfect one morning you had to use the primer to start the next day!

One more reason I love carburetors!

Carry on….


The emtron has 4 main start enrichment tables, A pre crank prime like you are talking about which has multiple ways to enable, key on, first firing event or first crank index ... then you can set fuel amount on a table based on temp over ms pulse which can be a single or i think up to 8 pulses. Then you have a time in seconds over temp based % enrichment table and a firing events over temp based enrichment... I have those tables fading at about a minute then you end up in into the regular temperature over load based % enrichment which have zeroing out at about 95 degrees on my set up. Basically you can spend a week on start enrichment tables alone.

[BLisBack!]

Ronnie: Why switch to the MAP sensor at WOT when it’s zero? Or close to zero. That’s why speed density is not needed at that application, no manifold psi change.

H20: That’s what I expected, lots of tables/trims. I like that. VSFI is similar. You can use them to really control cold starts. I’m all into cold starts, over Christmas I’d go out and start my EFI crossflow in below freezing temps just hear it kick over in under 360 degrees

Gary: You really need to switch! These systems are incredible. A little learning curve but once you go EFI you’ll never go back and thank God you live in the era of semi-conductors! Lol Full control, a jet change in the press of a button.

-BL

[BLisBack!]

Dynamic jet changing. In this vid you can see me changing the period with the hand held. Changing jets at the press of a button, very cool! You can mount the buttons anywhere but I found a piece of 1” pvc was the best as I could hold onto the pvc with the same hand as I steer with changing the period at WOT according to what the EGTs were saying. Works like a champ!

Most these high end system talked about on this thread can do this in some way, what makes EFI so awesome.

https://youtu.be/wg0wrq3_yOU

-BL

[PanRonnie]

When barometric pressure is 98Kpa your WOT manifold pressure is going to be 98Kpa depending on how restrictive your intake is
So when barometric is a 102Kpa again your WOT manifold pressure is going to be a 102Kpa or close to it
Count 1%of your total hp per 1Kpa and 1% for every 10Dgr celcius
If you tuned your alpaN system at 20dgr celsius at 98Kpa barometric you are 5% lean at 10Dgr celcius with a barometric pressure of 102Kpa
That why carb motors who do not have a barometric compensation run crap when you go up the mountain
And mercury and the rest have special carb jettings for lakes at altitudes
Your MAP manifold pressure is not going to stay the same when weather conditions change even humidity does a number hence i have weather station for my land and sea dyno
I can get a large deviation from my dyno run just by manipulating the weather data

[H2OPERF]

Im running baro/tps... I had MAP active originally when i first put the motor together, i tried using 1 cylinder then made a little manifold that had all the cylinders feeding the sensor but the MAP was still all over the place.. you could filter the crap out of it and get a semi good number but it kinda defeats the purpose plus it still wouldnt pull down that low at idle, now its straight baro tps. Emtron has 4 map slots with fuel /timing you can switch on the fly with a switch, rotary or pretty much any parameter you want to set up to make it jump , its really nice if you want to set up a cruising map thats slightly leaner or have a milder timing map for get home crap marina gas and obviously prop changes on the water. I also set up a 12 position rotary that pulls the map rich/lean for tuning or cruising, the possibilities are endless with modern EFI but it can go both ways.

[BLisBack!]

the possibilities are endless with modern EFI...

Absolutely.

I like that multiple, preset maps. Kinda like preset EQ settings on you car stereo. I can see that really being helpful. I might incorporate that into VSFI.

Maps take up a lot of RAM though, so you gotta pick and choose carefully. Its a true embedded system, not a desktop with tons of virtual memory. I have individual maps/cyl now but I'm thinking of changing that to a much simpler 15 cell rich lean map per cyl. Don't really need a full map.

Do you guys think there's a need for 100ths precision on the period? (i.e. if a cell in the map is displayed it would have 2 places after the decimal). From my testing tenths seems to be just fine. I know other systems go to 100ths though. With a small built in display like VSFI has, displaying hundreths crowds the map and makes it hard to read and the whole idea behind VSFI is to keep it simple.

-BL

[Chaz]

I did post the things that would be necessary as a replacement for a stock mercury unit with the exception of a IAT sensor and two cyl head temp sensors.
You seemed to ignore the necessary inputs. What is needed is a unit that uses the stock inputs ... but is adjustable in both individual fuel and spark tables. The higher the resolution, the better. The tuner can program cell blocks into zones, not be limited to a few small areas.

Any time you retard timing, you are running the heat out into the exhaust. Basing a theory on, no load @ high idle and a EGT gauge, will tend to have you see things bass - ackwards. The world of fuel flow meters and O2 sensors will open your eyes.

I have never met a carburetor that did not go rich beyond the torque peak. Bad for peak power, but on a two stroke it will tend to keep from sticking a piston. MS-3 has a WOT timer that you can program to add fuel after so many seconds , to avoid that situation. A map sensor is also good, if for nothing else than to add fuel when you chop the throttle @ high RPM . Since you don't seem to believe in the modern electric pump .. the pre-mix gas / oil gets chopped as well. 8000 rpm and idle quantity of fuel .. I'd rather the ECU make that adjustment, rather than me looking for a "up" button to start banging away on.

Once again, 90% of nitrous users bring their own fuel to the party. It's the ECU's job to retard timing while the music is on. Something else you have failed to recognize.

There are a few other entry level ECU's that are nothing more than a 1980's GM throttle body injection. It would however be really nice to see a waterproof ECU that had the needed components to run a 2-stroke engine efficiently, without dwelling on things that are just somewhat of a given.

The Fuel Tech ECU, dashboard and date logger are one in the same .. :thumbsup:

https://www.fueltech.net/products/ft600-efi-system

[BLisBack!]

What is needed is a unit that uses the stock inputs

Early on I looked into using the stock sensors. It was a good idea no doubt. After characterizing (lab testing) them they were found so bad I didn't want to build a system around them. So I went with all digital sensors, not this garbage the OEMs were using just because they were cheap or the OEM sensors needed a bunch of circuitry to filter or turn it into a digital like signal. Nowadays, the newer motors are probably not that bad. I find at times I'm using the same connectors and sensors they are like the eTec for example.


two cyl head temp sensors.

Right now VSFI version 7 has 4 temp sensors Port, Starbrd, Ambient and Crankcase (intake). Version 8 will have 8 Mil Spec grade digital sensors along with the 10 EGTs. As testing has shown the EGT is a must have for each cyl.


The higher the resolution, the better. The tuner can program cell blocks into zones, not be limited to a few small areas

Agreed which is why the VSFI map can be either a full 30x64 (TPSxRPM in Alpha-N mode) or any simplified map down to one cell! Its called "breakpoints". I have found that a 30x64 is simply too much, you just don't need it. Especially for drag applications. Most these high end systems are built around a big map because the OEM system which it was pirated from used a big map to cover all use cases anywhere in the world. But if you want it, you can setup a 30x64 map, crazy resolution, very awkward.


no load @ high idle and a EGT gauge, will tend to have you see things bass - ackwards. The world of fuel flow meters and O2 sensors will open your eyes.

Not quite sure what you mean here but VSFI tries to keep it simple (more so than the other EFI units out there) and a flow meter is really not needed. Although I could add it in as a trim. In one of the youtube vids you can see a whole list of "trims" under the fuel tab for various edge cases like individual cyl correction, overall enrich, primer, cold start etc. I think most the top end EFI units do the same as H2O had talked about the Emtron unit. You can do a washdown trim but you can also do that in the upper right of your map (high rpm zero throttle state) on a simple Alpha-N system.


I'd rather the ECU make that adjustment, rather than me looking for a "up" button to start banging away on.
This is a good idea. Its called "closed loop". That can be put in at anytime, right now, full manual control, just keeping it simple. If you load up the system with too much of that stuff it confuses most users and hence the need to go to EFI University:rolleyes:


It's the ECU's job to retard timing while the music is on

Yeah that's a no brainer. They all do that. There are a half dozen "open drain" aux inputs than can be used for almost anything on most these high end systems.


It would however be really nice to see a waterproof ECU that had the needed components to run a 2-stroke engine efficiently, without dwelling on things that are just somewhat of a given.

Problem is you can't seal a 2000w digital CDI unit that operates off a battery not a power robbing megneto coil, and is also stackable to double or quadruple the power in supercharged applications. Thats the CDI that VSFI uses, and due to the power it needs a fan or two! I guess I could scale a version down for only 250v primary and a light duty cycle and seal it. Maybe in future versions. For now keeping it simple to cover all applications. OEMs need waterproof, most DIY guys just the boxes somewhere dry and it keeps the price down.

Good questions! Keep 'em coming:smiletest:

-BL

[PanRonnie]

I am a big fan of things modular
This way you can pick and choose what you want
It is also easier to upgrade parts or have a way to repair them rather then sending in the whole unit
I was also playing with DC-CDI build 2 units but if i remember correctly it took 2 to 3 milliseconds to charge the capacitor so you would need 6 at which point i lost interest because the cost were getting out of hand even when i did my own winding
Keeping things simple and affordable would be a big plus using as much original parts as possible

[BLisBack!]

I am a big fan of things modular
This way you can pick and choose what you want
It is also easier to upgrade parts or have a way to repair them rather then sending in the whole unit
I was also playing with DC-CDI build 2 units but if i remember correctly it took 2 to 3 milliseconds to charge the capacitor so you would need 6 at which point i lost interest because the cost were getting out of hand even when i did my own winding
Keeping things simple and affordable would be a big plus using as much original parts as possible

Transformer is too small. Mine are huge but very fast. Its a tradeoff. I found boost mode was better than flyback/pulse too. But that depends on the transformer style too.

Here is a dual power supply CDI unit that was in the field for 10yrs; It has the biggest transformers I use. I also use a smaller one by about 30% which I usually build my CDIs with.

517914

Here the smaller one is making 600v primary in just over 100us, 400v (which is as high as most coils can take) is about 60us.

517915

-BL

[BLisBack!]

Also, bigger transformers mean more current, longer spark. But there is a limit. Ignition coils can be overloaded and become saturated and do nothing. I talk about this on the website.

If you up the primary voltage to the transformer you can get away with a much smaller transformer. This is the way the OEM systems work as they work with the charge coil voltage which is much higher than 12v. Very similar to the way new inverter welders work (just bought one so I know :D) they use a much smaller transformer because they switch the input voltage into the main transformer to a higher freq and voltage.

-BL

[Chaz]

Actually I made statements, not asked questions. I spoke on what I was looking for in a system. It has taken you two or three shots now to say one thing I was stating as necessary .. you claimed it as a given .. and called it something else. :rolleyes:

Good luck playing with your little toy .. as it appears that your not really trying to communicate with a customer base and develop something that fits their needs.
However, I give ya credit, you do have the nerd part .. down pat .. :thumbsup:

Chaz = no longer loosely following .. :leaving:

[BLisBack!]

You guys will like this one, 'cept maybe Chaz :rolleyes:;

VSFI testing of the eTec algorithm and dual channel CDI power supply. Tested with High Voltage active (sparks sent through actual spark plugs in the background). Its meeting timing with absolutely no jitter, timing drift and not loosing sync, injectors are at 100% duty so no pulse, and the rev limiter is set to 10,500rpm and you can see it cut in/out on the timing light. "Meeting timing" means the ECU is tracking the sensors on the engine simulator and all coils and injectors are firing when they should be, nothing is out of sync. This is a MUST DO test to ensure the software and power supply are keeping up with the real time requirements. Like Ronnie posted earlier the power supply has to be very fast. Pulling about 40amps at that rpm, about 400v to the coils, battery charger is at max in the background :D

At 10,500 thats 175 revolutions a second, each rev is just over 5ms and each cyl only having 95us to do 16 degrees of timing delay and fire the cyl.

https://youtube.com/shorts/XzzxyeI2R04?feature=share

-BL

[H2OPERF]

.016 X rpm X cyls = Hz... the number starts rising above the capability of many aftermarket units pushing you into multiple boxes and/or not using all the channels.

[BLisBack!]

.016 X rpm X cyls = Hz... the number starts rising above the capability of many aftermarket units pushing you into multiple boxes and/or not using all the channels.

Exactly. Then on top of that there is the thermal considerations, power dissipation to worry about. As rpm goes up, power consumption and heat goes up in a huge way. You really have to watch you don’t exceed duty cycle.

I remember the first time I got assembled boards for that CDI power supply 10yrs ago. I knew it could handle 10k rpm so I slapped it on the simulator at 8k and walked away. 20 min later I came back to a horrible smell of electronics burning. Those transformers had no air flow over them and melted clean through the board! Seriously exceeded the duty cycle for zero air flow. This is why OEM flywheels are vented so much.

-BL

[H2OPERF]

Water cooled would be the best for marine use, make back plates with passages to draw off the heat. All my stuff is on the ph and no issues so far.. The efi technology cdi suff is amazingly small and seems to handle the job they have internal temp sensors you can use for logging or indication. Found the ones I have used new prices are crazy but their stuff is top shelf. There are 2 boxes one above each head.

[BLisBack!]

Awesome. I like it!

-BL

[PanRonnie]

Water cooled would be the best for marine use, make back plates with passages to draw off the heat. All my stuff is on the ph and no issues so far.. The efi technology cdi suff is amazingly small and seems to handle the job they have internal temp sensors you can use for logging or indication. Found the ones I have used new prices are crazy but their stuff is top shelf. There are 2 boxes one above each head.

That looks fantastic but i think that is out of the price range of most dabbelers
When i build the DC-cdi units i was thinking there must be an easier and most of all cheaper way
So i build with the help of a diy motorcycle cdi specialist these switch boxes as i could not get the mercury boxes to spark with a logic level output
There might be a chance you can trigger the omc powerpack as it would have the 6 seperate inputs but these boxes should also fit
Now as far as i know only megasquirt can drive them as you can set the coil dwell to a fixed percentage of crank rotation
As the thyristor opens on a positive going of the input and most units see this as the start of the coil dwell not the ignition point this is a problem
The way i worked around this is a coil dwell of 95% going low
So the thyristor input was low 95% of the crank rotation giving the capacitor time to charge
When it's time fir ignition the logic level goes high firing the thyristor and giving spark
Megasquirt sees this as the ignition point
With the normal coil signal it goes high when it starts with the coil dwell and goes low when it is time to spark so this would give the wrong timing and as rpm increases your ignition point would advance as your rotation time gets shorter and your coild dwell becomes a higher percentage of the rotation time

[BLisBack!]

Interesting. Triggering a CDI with a circuit intended for inductive style ignition. That'll work I guess. The SCR/Thyristors only need a whiff of that long pulse as you stated and they are full on.

What are you using as the coil primary power source? The OEM charge coils under the flywheel?

I believe the OMC power packs use a Triac and are triggered with a negative pulse from the trigger base (sine wave analog output). Lawn mower grade stuff but they were just trying to keep it simple so you can't bust 'em too much. Might be why you couldn't get the Merc box to trigger, probably very similar.

-BL

[PanRonnie]

Yep you just hook up the original wiring don,t even have to change the wire terminals
This the omc patent circuit diagram with the warm up thyristeros inplace
You could essentially sperate this circuit by disconneting the powercoil to the powerpack obviously leave the 12 volt wire from the starter solenoid
you would loose the warmup but also the REV limit from the LM2907 as no frequency is coming in

[PanRonnie]

I also build a second version with even less parts you could run the evinrude v8 with 2 of these boxes
Included the full omc ignition patent here

[PanRonnie]

If you want to build the circuit yourself
The single capacitor is simply one bridge rectifier with the 4 thyristor circuits

[PanRonnie]

the mercury 2.5 shematic

[H2OPERF]

Yeeaaa.. that stuffs wayyy past my pay grade lol...

[PanRonnie]

Actually still have some videos with it

https://youtube.com/shorts/46q35k1UNMM?feature=share

And out on the water only tuned to 5000rpm did not dare to use autotune above that

https://youtu.be/PrtAgTzdcI8

[PanRonnie]

https://youtube.com/shorts/xEMg9QprdBM?feature=share

[BLisBack!]

I like the vid on the water! Aluminum melts at 1200, you got plenty more to go! :D

-BL

[powerabout]

anyone tried a zeeltronics package?

[PanRonnie]

I like the vid on the water! Aluminum melts at 1200, you got plenty more to go! :D

-BL

Well that is one of the interesting things
When i started actually with the Uk based system DTA the dealer asked me to make an EGT curve from my engine
Now this was my 98 promax 225 which after suffering 2 piston failures got the new A32 ecu, part of the bulletin is reducing the igntion to 23 dgr BTDC mine was somehow set by the mercury dealer to 17 dgr BTDC figured this out only later
So the EGT curve which i included is from a stock 225 with an 17 dgr BTDC setting
That was also a thing when i was out on the water i got it to run good but what was the limit?, the engine was ported in the meantime "never a good thing to change more than 1 thing at a time"
When i got the change to buy a skater 24 i rebuild everything back to stock with the mercury computer and use megasquirt only for datalogging
first getting some proper EGT and AFR,s of 2 engines even the cooling system already gives different EGT temps one is poppet the other flow

That is one thing i would advice everybody first install the unit as a datalogger get some good readings from your topcondition outboard make yourself familiar with whatever software then start introducing it to the engine either ignition or fuel but not both at the same time
this way you have something to tune against your datalog
Oh yeah and do proper injector dead time tests with your ecu

[BLisBack!]

... part of the bulletin is reducing the igntion to 23 dgr BTDC mine was somehow set by the mercury dealer to 17 dgr BTDC figured this out only later

You mean it was inadvertently set to 23 and you reduced to 17?

Yeah good advice to get a baseline first on a known working motor. With VSFI on a fresh motor, I start with a known working map, do an overall increase on all cells of about 1 to 1.5ms (Alpha-N mode). This puts EGTs in the 800-900 range (very safe) but allows the motor to still get up to speed. Then use the hand-held to tune in the map dynamically on the water. Usually doesn't take long at all and you're screaming along with EGTs 1000-1100. In Hand-held Tune mode the changes go directly to the map not used as a Trim on existing map values. (you can set it to do either)

Same with ignition timing, back down about 2-3 deg from the OEM recommended settings and work up. Then put in a WOT retard as much as possible to where it isn't a noticeable power loss.

-BL

[PanRonnie]

You mean it was inadvertently set to 23 and you reduced to 17?



-BL
other way around