2-stroke head bolts - to lube or not?

[DanH]

Concerning steel bolts going into aluminum heads/block:
Do you lubricate the cylinder head bolts or not? If you do, what lube do you use? Oil, anti-seize? Do you adjust the bolt torque as a result?

[25two.stroke]

People will have other ways than mine.

My way:
oil the shoulder & washer
install all bolts on the head and lightly seat
Remove bolts 1 by 1 and put red Loctite on the threads.
now no loctite seeped onto the head/block surfaces, and the loctite acts as a lubricant as the bolt goes in.
35 ft lbs

Thats what I do with head bolts if and when (rarely) I use them instead of studs.

[LakeFever]

Do you use Red or blue? I think for head bolts Id use blue.

[rock]

Light oil. Put bolts in container with oil covering threads. Pull out one at a time and dab a bit of oil off bolt onto head as you put bolt in hole. Snug down finger tight then three rounds of torque to 35 lbs. after all bolts in place. Lots of different ways and ya have to use whatever works for you.

Rock

[Jim Speros]

Rock shared the way I was taught and the manual says. I always used 2 stroke oil.

[H2OPERF]

I usually re-torque tq after a few hrs of initial run time, the locktite would nix that. oil but sparingly you dont want to hydro lock the bolts in the bottom of the hole so i dont put any in the block threads, a little model paint brush works on the bolt thread..

[pcrussell50]

People will have other ways than mine.

My way:
oil the shoulder & washer
install all bolts on the head and lightly seat
Remove bolts 1 by 1 and put red Loctite on the threads.
now no loctite seeped onto the head/block surfaces, and the loctite acts as a lubricant as the bolt goes in.
35 ft lbs

Thats what I do with head bolts if and when (rarely) I use them instead of studs.

This is a very interesting approach to me. Especially since I am educated as an engineer, (ie book smart, not practical smart), and not a mechanic. So here's why it is interesting to me... At least from the book nerd perspective... A properly torqued bolt needs to torqued far enough to be put into and kept in tension, or it may loosen.That means it has to be torqued to the point where it stretches a certain amount. But in the case of strong steel bolts going into soft aluminum threads, I'm not sure that is a good idea. Is the reason you use red loctite, due to the fact that you suspect the bolts aren't entering proper stretch to stay tight?

Also, maybe the loctite gets hot enough that it can be broken open without undue torque or heat, the next time the heads need to come off?

Just guessing here... Fascinated by your method. Thanks for sharing.

-Peter

[Chaz]

Light oil, 1st pull, 10 ft/lbs (120 in/lbs) 2nd pull, 20 ft/lbs (240 in/lbs) 3rd pull, plus 90 degree's .. :thumbsup:

For those that can't get a grip (no pun) on that, there is , hi-pressure concrete, welding the heads on, green lock-tite, flex-seal, Belzona, A-B epoxy, fix-a-flat, hammer and nails, rivets, etc ... :rolleyes:

[rgsauger]

Wait a sec, Chaz. Flex-seal doesn’t work in head gaskets. Leaks when it gets hot. Just sayin’….

[LakeFever]

How about head stud torque specs?

[Chaz]

Wait a sec, Chaz. Flex-seal doesn’t work in head gaskets. Leaks when it gets hot. Just sayin’….

Flex-seal is not for everyone. :nonod:

Available everywhere lock-tite products are sold. :rolleyes:

Easy to apply. :smiletest:

Cures in 24 hrs. :cool:

Dr. Cleetus scientifically tested. :o

Works with nitrous or boost. :eek:

Skip to 16:00 minutes for full results. :leaving:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0XmQv6IDVQ&t=910s

[25two.stroke]

How about head stud torque specs?

Not sure if you mean installing the studs or the nut torque on the studs.
Installing them in the block I have been told 2 ways...that are very different:
1. install and lightly snug with red loctite (ccms "rigid" method)
2. install with light oil, seat and then back off a 1/2 turn (ox performance "floating" method)

The nuts I've torqued anywhere from 30 lbs all the way to 50...never had an issue except with one bad batch of studs I got which were crystalline and snapping at 20 ft-lb or less. I do the nuts dry

[DanH]

Light oil. Put bolts in container with oil covering threads. Pull out one at a time and dab a bit of oil off bolt onto head as you put bolt in hole. Snug down finger tight then three rounds of torque to 35 lbs. after all bolts in place. Lots of different ways and ya have to use whatever works for you.

Rock

This is the method I used. I will re-torque after a few hrs run time.

[FUJIMO]

Light oil, 1st pull, 10 ft/lbs (120 in/lbs) 2nd pull, 20 ft/lbs (240 in/lbs) 3rd pull, plus 90 degree's .. :thumbsup:


...this procedure. red loctite head bolts into an aluminum o/b block? no...

[Chaz]

...this procedure. red loctite heads bolts into an aluminum o/b block? no...

I saw in the "misc. parts for sale" .. that 3.0L lower units don't use a key to keep the carrier from spinning .. then posting a picture of a few carriers .. all with key slots .. :rolleyes:

Chaz = thinkin, the 2022 award for "most bogus information" can only go to the guy on the west coast, who is head and shoulders above anyone else in this catagory .. :thumbsup:

[25two.stroke]

I saw in the "misc. parts for sale" .. that 3.0L lower units don't use a key to keep the carrier from spinning .. then posting a picture of a few carriers .. all with key slots .. :rolleyes:

Chaz = thinkin, the 2022 award for "most bogus information" can only go to the guy on the west coast, who is head and shoulders above anyone else in this catagory .. :thumbsup:

I guess you must be Miss Informed then lol.
I did not say 3.0L never use a key...if you actually read the words you would know I didn't that. Most 3.0L cases in the entire world do not use a key slot: instead they use a tab in the tab washer.
I also did not state that my LH carriers did not have/use keys.
The race 3.0L cases did still use those keys in many of them, but that is not most of the 3.0 cases out there.

Moreover, that post was in response to someone asking a question about carriers that should have been in the technical part of this website, not in my ad because he was not actually interested in buying anything. People posting their unwanted opinions in the wrong forums on here happens all too much and is happening right now.

In case you didn't know here are examples of the key and no key in 3.0L lower units.
513855
513856
A 3.0L carrier that uses a key
513857
two 3.0L carriers that don't use keys:
513859513860
And...the tab washers that vary between key & no key:
513858


How carriers are relevant to head bolt installation methods I have no idea. Not sure why you brought it up, but since we are now on the topic I figured I'd post accurate info.
The only award I get in 2022 is the most cluttered work bench.

[OnPad]

Right or wrong, I like grease.

[25two.stroke]

Right or wrong, I like grease.

Like just straight grease on the threads? Like 24C basic?

[OnPad]

A little on the threads and thrust surface. Whatever I have laying around. Right now nlgi no.2 marine grease
I grease most all bolts unless I'm really concerned about it rattling loose. Like rod bolts. Then I use blue loctite, and rarely red.

[LakeFever]

In the car realm i use arp lube. I typically do a burnishing cycle of 3x @30% of final torque then do a two or three step torque down sequence. But in the ob building world im just towing the line with y’all

[Chaz]

I guess you must be Miss Informed then lol.
I did not say 3.0L never use a key...if you actually read the words you would know I didn't that. Most 3.0L cases in the entire world do not use a key slot: instead they use a tab in the tab washer.
I also did not state that my LH carriers did not have/use keys.
The race 3.0L cases did still use those keys in many of them, but that is not most of the 3.0 cases out there.

Moreover, that post was in response to someone asking a question about carriers that should have been in the technical part of this website, not in my ad because he was not actually interested in buying anything. People posting their unwanted opinions in the wrong forums on here happens all too much and is happening right now.

In case you didn't know here are examples of the key and no key in 3.0L lower units.
513855
513856
A 3.0L carrier that uses a key
513857
two 3.0L carriers that don't use keys:
513859513860
And...the tab washers that vary between key & no key:
513858


How carriers are relevant to head bolt installation methods I have no idea. Not sure why you brought it up, but since we are now on the topic I figured I'd post accurate info.
The only award I get in 2022 is the most cluttered work bench.


See the little tab ... it fits the keyway in the case. The keyway in the case is cut with a keyway cutter ... either tab or square x rectangle block .. it's keyed .. :rolleyes:
Never mentioned your name, but thanks for speaking up .. :thumbsup:
Why was it mentioned ... just way toooooooo many times you have given poor, bad, wrong, costly, advice. Take it for what it's worth .. !

[patchesII]

How about head stud torque specs?

If you’re talking about a proper stud with fine threads on the outside of the head then I always did finger tight or just slightly snug in the block. The fine thread nuts get torqued to 28 lb-ft. Fine threads develop more clamping force at a given torque so there’s no need to hang a cheater pipe off of it.
On standard 2.5 head bolts I went 32-35 lb ft with 2 stroke oil on the threads

[Dave S]

Just use a small bit of pepper..........:cheers: an salt on eggs........

[CI STV]

I personally wouldn’t want to use anything other than studs on a high performance (especially a high compression) two stroke, since you’re eliminating any variance in torque/clamping due to the threads in the aluminum block galling as they’re being tightened, which compromises both the threads in the block and the evenness of clamping force across the head.
Studs also typically allow the use of a fine thread on the nut too, which is stronger and allows more precise torque/fastener stretch.That, along with reduced friction, is why you need less torque with studs to gain the same (or better) clamping force than a bolt can ever achieve.
I have a PPE kit which only requires the nuts to be torqued to 28 ft lbs, IIRC. The studs simply screw into the block finger tight, so there’s no chance of you stripping the threads in the block. I used a little anti-seize (gasp!) on the course threads in the block and light synthetic oil on the nuts. They torqued so easily I was nervous, tbh. So far, they’re holding up, and I’ve had the heads off a couple of times since installing the studs.
I also used three steps of torquing, using Mercury’s torque sequence.
Chris Carson sells stud kits for like $125 and both OX and PPE have them as well, albeit at more than twice that, no doubt because the studs are stainless steel. Any of them is a worthwhile investment and cheap insurance against pulling the threads in your block, IMV. My 2 cents…

[Dave S]

From what I was told 45 years ago......;) That never seize turns into cement in salt water use. Studs are nice but harder to remove heads. I use a small amount of 90 gear lube after the head has been at 10 lbs so gasket don't get oily......;).... Every one has their way.........:cheers:

[OnPad]

Every time I try using anti seize, I end up looking like a painted street performer.

[rock]

Need to start a new thread. Which is worse.....anti-seize or Great Stuff expanding foam. I can't be within 4 to 6 feet from either or I am a mess.

Rock

[trivialpursuits]

Makes a great "Tin Man" halloween costume.

[25two.stroke]

Need to start a new thread. Which is worse.....anti-seize or Great Stuff expanding foam. I can't be within 4 to 6 feet from either or I am a mess.

Rock

How about aviation pematex...they cant even deliver a case of it without making a mess...much less use it for a month before its all gone/.
513967

[pcrussell50]

3373588 (tel:3373588)[/URL]]From what I was told 45 years ago......;) That never seize turns into cement in salt water use.

Breaking out my nerdy college boy engineering from a long time ago… It probably matters which metallic base the anti-seizure compound is based on. I have seen both copper and aluminum based compounds. But that’s where my usefulness breaks down because I have no practical application for it this trivia unless I dig into the galvanic reactivity tables. Also, I stopped boating in salt water when I had my first kid, 12 years ago. The extra maintenance took the joy out of it once we discovered fresh water.

-Peter

[CI STV]

I don’t know what never seize was made of 45 years ago, but I’ve used both the copper-based and the silver anti-seize in salt water for the last 30+ years, and I’ve never seen that problem…

[Chaz]

Three pages on ... how to tighten a bolt ... :rolleyes:

Lefty loosey ~ Righty tighty ... ;)

Never seize ... they only made a quart of it. The guy who made it, got some on his hands and forearms. When he went to lunch, he smeared some on the seat, table, menu, plate, glass and silverware.
He hugged his wife when he got home, she works at the bank .. so every coin and bill that passed thru her hands got some on them, which transferred to rolls and stacks.
I could go on, but most :cool: of you get the idea of how one quart spread throughout the world ... :leaving: :cheers:

[H2OPERF]

But we haven't even gotten into the tq pattern yet...

[25two.stroke]

But we haven't even gotten into the tq pattern yet...

I'm sure if I said what I do it would be shot down right away. Even though it has never failed LOL

[OnPad]

I'm sure if I said what I do it would be shot down right away. Even though it has never failed LOL

I've heard you can tell how good a mechanic is by how clean they are after work. You shouldn't worry about us in the tin man group. Like Dave said different strokes for different folks.:cheers:

Just never ever confuse a keyway with a key, oh and stop using red loctite on your head bolts.:leaving::p

Wrench on!!:cheers:

[Chaz]

I'm sure if I said what I do it would be shot down right away. Even though it has never failed LOL

No doubt that you do all the bolts on the outside row top to bottom with red lok-tite and a 1/2" impact. Then the inside row, bottom to top with green lok-tite, because its closer to the ex. log, which only need a 3/ths inpact .. :rolleyes:
On three litres, you just throw the inside rows away, cuz if a 2.5 don't need em .. why should you use em ... :thumbsup:

Dave .. see whut ya started .. :D :D :D

[OnPad]

Just use a small bit of pepper..........:cheers: an salt on eggs........

Yeah Dave! Pepper is for blown head gaskets, an eggs. Not head bolts silly.:cheers:

[rock]

And all he asked was oil or no oil

Rock