Mad EFI mid

[25two.stroke]

With the engine back together I feel comfortable telling this story. It is assembled EXACTLY how Todd at Mad EFI says to do it, so if anything breaks again then he had better take responsibility.
So here it goes:
15" 300x on an allison 2003xb - 110 mph boat
Engine was assembled originally by DBR and used a cut down 20" fishin can. This setup lasted about 5 years and then the lower unit bolts backed off and with the lower unit running loose it cracked the front of the midsection across right down the center of the mounting studs where its thin. The propshaft seal had failed in the lower unit and water wiped out the propshaft needle bearing. Not sure if that cause excessive vibration that backed the mounting bolts off or if it was coincidence the two failures happened at the same time. The driveshaft was 2 piece and when the lower came down it stripped out the driveshaft at the coupler.

I replaced the driveshaft with a solid shaft cut and resplined by Chris Carson. The owner of the boat opted for a mad EFI mid since they were readily available, one piece, and had a good reputation. We didn't have to find a 20" can and have it cut.

We got the parts, and upon unboxing the mid I noticed the bolt holes where the adapter plate bolts to the driveshaft housing were not centered in the casting. The threads for one bolt were dangerously close to the driveshaft cavity to where threads were almost poppin out. I looked closer at the whole upper hole pattern and it was not centered in the casting at all. It was about 1/16" shifted over to the starboard. I thought, "thats odd, but I guess it doesn't matter. just bad casting. And if the lower bolt pattern is aligned to the upper bolt pattern then its all good."

508413
508414
pics above taken after we tore the engine apart...^

I looked at how the can was made and figured that it was cast and then jigged up somehow and a cnc cleaned up the inside and drilled all the holes, so the whole bolt pattern was just not centered in the casting and it would be okay. We put the powerhead on and then the lower unit. The lower unit had a tad of trouble going up the last 1/2" and I didn't think much of it cause junk on the splines and on the dowell pins cause that on almost every water pump job I do; and I do multiple daily.

Owner drove the boat two times up to 108 and put about 120 miles on it. On his third trip out he called me from the water saying he lost all his gears. He though he blew the lower unit up I put it together. I asked him if the engine started he said yes. I asked if the engine pumped water he said no. I knew immediately he snapped the driveshaft.

We pulled the powerhead that night and found a stripped driveshaft. I also noticed that the driveshaft was not coming up through the center of the hole in the adapter plate. In fact, it was rubbing on the casting of the adapter plate it was so far off center. I did not notice this on first assembly because we put the powerhead on before the lower unit. The amount that the driveshaft was off center is about the same amount the bolt pattern was off in the casting.

I thought to myself, "I wonder if when the lower backed off the first time if it warped the mating surface of the lower unit, so the lower isn't square to the powerhead anymore." To test this, I got a BRAND NEW lower unit from mercury and bolted it up to the midsection: same thing.

508415

Driveshaft touching the one side of the adapter plate and about 1/8" away from the other side.

508416

I called Chris Carson and asked if he ever had that experience or knew of anyone who had with a mad EFI mid. He said he had not ever heard of that with a mad EFI mid. All he could recall was 3 instances of his driveshafts stripping/breaking. One was on a welded mid and I can't recall what the other two were but it was a twin engine boat and both shafts of his stripped. In each of the 3 instances either the driveshaft was not centered or it was centered and coming up to the powerhead a few degrees off of plumb. He took me back decades in stories to when OMC had alignment issues in their fishing motors which resulted in numerous driveshafts snapping right below the water pumps. Their factory solution ended up being a type of universal joint/coupler by the water pump that would allow just enough wobble for the driveshaft to pivot around and stay engaged despite a slight misalignment. He said that back then OMC allowed a driveshaft to be like 0.002" out of center for a solid shaft to live, otherwise one of those 2 piece shafts was needed. The shafts would shatter within an hour or two of run time if an out of center lower+mid was bolted to the powerhead.

I measured the misalignment in the mad EFI mid and it was 0.019" different from one side to the other: so 0.0095" off center. THATS MORE THAN 1/16 OF AN INCH!

I called todd at mad EFI and told him what we had going and my suspicion about his cnc cutting the bolt pattern off center.

He said, "That is impossible.'
His words.
He said I was correct about how they make the mids. They cast them, make the lower unit bolt pattern, bolt the lower to a jig where the cnc scans the housing and finds center BASED OFF OF the lower unit bolt patter. So even if the casting is off, the lower unit bolts and the powerhead bolts will be dead nuts centered. He said the reason the threads were almost popping through the side is cause the total housing bolt pattern was not centered in the casting, but that would not cause any failures.

I agree, if the whole thing was off center it wouldn't really matter.

I sent him the pictures of the driveshaft coming up out of center and he said "I see nothing wrong, that is not an issue. When the powerhead is bolted to it then it will be pulled back to center and its fine. The failure was due to the driveshaft splines being weak and not heat treated like Mercury's."

^the above may be paraphrased because this conversation was more than a month ago^

However, he said misalignment is not an issue and if I put a mercury cut and welded driveshaft made by Craig Collabella then all out problems would go away. I'm a semi smart guy, I'm a marine mechanic, I was a designer/fabricator in the past and I worked in highrise construction, building litigation, etc... I've seen a lot of stuff and I know hoe stuff is built. I know that this mid aint right. However he said it is quote "impossible" for his cnc to make a mistake. Which I know is BS because I worked with CNCs for 3 years and have done autocad, drafting, 3d printing, and 3d modelling for 8 years. I know machines can make mistakes even though that is rare.

I called Chris Carson back to see his opinion and his was the same as mine, and the same as 3 or 4 other engine builders local here that I had take a look at it. We all say off center that much is not acceptable at all. However, to give Todd the benefit of the doubt, I put the whole engine back together how he said. I send the shaft to craig, got it back, built the lower and put the engine back together. We are set to do a water test in 10 days or so.

The original Chris Carson splines, sure they are softer than mercury, but I run them, everyone I know around here with 15" mids run cut and splined shafts...its never been an issue here till now. It did take 120 miles for it to fail, and sure the hard mercury splines probably will last longer. So I expect the motor to run good for 4 or 5 trips. But I am 90% sure its gonna fail again, maybe not at the powerhead splines like the first case, but its gonna snap that shaft at the weakest point: probably below the water pump like on an OMC. What is ya'lls opinion on this matter?
508418
508420

3.218" from the outside of the powerhead stud hole to the driveshaft on the port side
508421
3.058" from the outside of the powerhead stud hole to the driveshaft on the starboard side

I am not one to stir up trouble, but I just kind feel like this is all garbage.

[25two.stroke]

https://youtu.be/Hp7DI_uJyD0

[2thelake]

:eek:25 finally some info on what happened!!!

I had snapped my 20” shaft on my LU below the water pump. I’m not sure how that happened but I went on this site and found Craig Collabella! So happy I found him since his shop is right up the highway from Melbourne. Great guy! Texted me every single step of the way until my sporty was all rebuilt! Even invited me to have a beer with him after he closed shop for the day! Highly recommend.

After I got back I bolted my Sporty up to the motor and it looks to me like my LU is misaligned to my factory 20” mid. I don’t have any pictures, can maybe get some soon…but the grey part of the SM is not aligned with the tip of the aft part of the factory mid it’s maybe off by a 1/16 of an inch maybe even less then that.

Have you ever had that problem 25? Where the LU looks fine but when you bolt it up to the mid it snugs up fine but it isn’t centered when you look at it from the aft end of the boat looking forward. Just how much misalignment can be tolerated from the lower unit to the midsection? Are these problems of drive shafts snapping below the water pump due to midsection or a possibly bent LU? My splines were not stripped out that go into the motor. The break was so clean that it looked to me like someone to a razor blade to the shaft and cut it.

im not trying to defend or bash anyone on here as my thought was that I’m just gonna buy a new midsection and clamp and then see how she goes from there. I ran my boat like that for the rest of the summer and had no problems.

just want to know what can cause driveshafts to break below the water pump and what can cause drive shafts to despline in the powerhead? Like other then wave bashing and going airborne without throttling back what causes it? How do you even measure to tell if your mids and lowers are out of alignment?

[2thelake]

508425
When looking at this part it looks to be off center? Is that a problem?

[2thelake]

Looks like I got a casting from your batch and one casting from another like you said after you look for that threaded hole that you pointed out!

[WaterZebra]

With the engine back together I feel comfortable telling this story. It is assembled EXACTLY how Todd at Mad EFI says to do it, so if anything breaks again then he had better take responsibility.
So here it goes:
15" 300x on an allison 2003xb - 110 mph boat
Engine was assembled originally by DBR and used a cut down 20" fishin can. This setup lasted about 5 years and then the lower unit bolts backed off and with the lower unit running loose it cracked the front of the midsection across right down the center of the mounting studs where its thin. The propshaft seal had failed in the lower unit and water wiped out the propshaft needle bearing. Not sure if that cause excessive vibration that backed the mounting bolts off or if it was coincidence the two failures happened at the same time. The driveshaft was 2 piece and when the lower came down it stripped out the driveshaft at the coupler.

I replaced the driveshaft with a solid shaft cut and resplined by Chris Carson. The owner of the boat opted for a mad EFI mid since they were readily available, one piece, and had a good reputation. We didn't have to find a 20" can and have it cut.

We got the parts, and upon unboxing the mid I noticed the bolt holes where the adapter plate bolts to the driveshaft housing were not centered in the casting. The threads for one bolt were dangerously close to the driveshaft cavity to where threads were almost poppin out. I looked closer at the whole upper hole pattern and it was not centered in the casting at all. It was about 1/16" shifted over to the starboard. I thought, "thats odd, but I guess it doesn't matter. just bad casting. And if the lower bolt pattern is aligned to the upper bolt pattern then its all good."

508413
508414
pics above taken after we tore the engine apart...^

I looked at how the can was made and figured that it was cast and then jigged up somehow and a cnc cleaned up the inside and drilled all the holes, so the whole bolt pattern was just not centered in the casting and it would be okay. We put the powerhead on and then the lower unit. The lower unit had a tad of trouble going up the last 1/2" and I didn't think much of it cause junk on the splines and on the dowell pins cause that on almost every water pump job I do; and I do multiple daily.

Owner drove the boat two times up to 108 and put about 120 miles on it. On his third trip out he called me from the water saying he lost all his gears. He though he blew the lower unit up I put it together. I asked him if the engine started he said yes. I asked if the engine pumped water he said no. I knew immediately he snapped the driveshaft.

We pulled the powerhead that night and found a stripped driveshaft. I also noticed that the driveshaft was not coming up through the center of the hole in the adapter plate. In fact, it was rubbing on the casting of the adapter plate it was so far off center. I did not notice this on first assembly because we put the powerhead on before the lower unit. The amount that the driveshaft was off center is about the same amount the bolt pattern was off in the casting.

I thought to myself, "I wonder if when the lower backed off the first time if it warped the mating surface of the lower unit, so the lower isn't square to the powerhead anymore." To test this, I got a BRAND NEW lower unit from mercury and bolted it up to the midsection: same thing.

508415

Driveshaft touching the one side of the adapter plate and about 1/8" away from the other side.

508416

I called Chris Carson and asked if he ever had that experience or knew of anyone who had with a mad EFI mid. He said he had not ever heard of that with a mad EFI mid. All he could recall was 3 instances of his driveshafts stripping/breaking. One was on a welded mid and I can't recall what the other two were but it was a twin engine boat and both shafts of his stripped. In each of the 3 instances either the driveshaft was not centered or it was centered and coming up to the powerhead a few degrees off of plumb. He took me back decades in stories to when OMC had alignment issues in their fishing motors which resulted in numerous driveshafts snapping right below the water pumps. Their factory solution ended up being a type of universal joint/coupler by the water pump that would allow just enough wobble for the driveshaft to pivot around and stay engaged despite a slight misalignment. He said that back then OMC allowed a driveshaft to be like 0.002" out of center for a solid shaft to live, otherwise one of those 2 piece shafts was needed. The shafts would shatter within an hour or two of run time if an out of center lower+mid was bolted to the powerhead.

I measured the misalignment in the mad EFI mid and it was 0.019" different from one side to the other: so 0.0095" off center. THATS MORE THAN 1/16 OF AN INCH!

I called todd at mad EFI and told him what we had going and my suspicion about his cnc cutting the bolt pattern off center.

He said, "That is impossible.'
His words.
He said I was correct about how they make the mids. They cast them, make the lower unit bolt pattern, bolt the lower to a jig where the cnc scans the housing and finds center BASED OFF OF the lower unit bolt patter. So even if the casting is off, the lower unit bolts and the powerhead bolts will be dead nuts centered. He said the reason the threads were almost popping through the side is cause the total housing bolt pattern was not centered in the casting, but that would not cause any failures.

I agree, if the whole thing was off center it wouldn't really matter.

I sent him the pictures of the driveshaft coming up out of center and he said "I see nothing wrong, that is not an issue. When the powerhead is bolted to it then it will be pulled back to center and its fine. The failure was due to the driveshaft splines being weak and not heat treated like Mercury's."

^the above may be paraphrased because this conversation was more than a month ago^

However, he said misalignment is not an issue and if I put a mercury cut and welded driveshaft made by Craig Collabella then all out problems would go away. I'm a semi smart guy, I'm a marine mechanic, I was a designer/fabricator in the past and I worked in highrise construction, building litigation, etc... I've seen a lot of stuff and I know hoe stuff is built. I know that this mid aint right. However he said it is quote "impossible" for his cnc to make a mistake. Which I know is BS because I worked with CNCs for 3 years and have done autocad, drafting, 3d printing, and 3d modelling for 8 years. I know machines can make mistakes even though that is rare.

I called Chris Carson back to see his opinion and his was the same as mine, and the same as 3 or 4 other engine builders local here that I had take a look at it. We all say off center that much is not acceptable at all. However, to give Todd the benefit of the doubt, I put the whole engine back together how he said. I send the shaft to craig, got it back, built the lower and put the engine back together. We are set to do a water test in 10 days or so.

The original Chris Carson splines, sure they are softer than mercury, but I run them, everyone I know around here with 15" mids run cut and splined shafts...its never been an issue here till now. It did take 120 miles for it to fail, and sure the hard mercury splines probably will last longer. So I expect the motor to run good for 4 or 5 trips. But I am 90% sure its gonna fail again, maybe not at the powerhead splines like the first case, but its gonna snap that shaft at the weakest point: probably below the water pump like on an OMC. What is ya'lls opinion on this matter?
508418
508420

3.218" from the outside of the powerhead stud hole to the driveshaft on the port side
508421
3.058" from the outside of the powerhead stud hole to the driveshaft on the starboard side

I am not one to stir up trouble, but I just kind feel like this is all garbage.

Take a look at your top photo. The lug profiles (thickness) are different from "core shift" at the foundry. Not a big deal for MAD EFI based on numbers cast but would be unacceptable for Mercury Marine. Matching engine block stud bores to gearcase bolt patterns while keeping the driveshaft axis coaxial to prevent runout side load failures can be tricky. Mercury Marine HiPerf knows this. It would be interesting to see MAD EFI's "jig" for putting in the second set of bores and how the top and bottom end plane surfaces are kept co-planer and to what tolerance? Can the adapter plate be reworked to provide a bigger clearance bore for the driveshaft? Is there evidence of "printing" on the driveshaft O/D?

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

Just want to know what can cause driveshafts to break below the water pump and what can cause drive shafts to despline in the powerhead? Like other then wave bashing and going airborne without throttling back what causes it? How do you even measure to tell if your mids and lowers are out of alignment?
I believe shaft breakage below the pump and spline failure are usually due to two different causes,sometimes found together sometimes alone.
As OMC learned in the late 70's,the driveshaft must aim accurately at the crankshaft,allowed .002,runout,or the shaft will(may) fatigue at the point of highest flex...immediately above where the shaft is held securely in a rather robust combination of roller needle bearings and thrust bearings right below the water pump.The amount of misalighnment is directly related to the lifespan of the doomed shaft,witnessed personally many times.Prior to the two piece shaft,with a loose spline sort of CV joint,some of the shafts were thinned from 7/8 to 5/8 over most of their length to allow some easier flex spread out over the length of the shaft so as to not concentratate the flex at the pump base bearing exit,helped,but did not solve the problem.Anyway,understanding that the shaft is turning 75 times a second at a mere 4500 rpm cruiseing speed you should realize there is a lot of flexing going on,and the greater the flex,the faster the failure,which,by the way,did not occure on the test run but might take 50 or 100 or more hours.
Our MERC factory mids seem pretty well made,and usually when i find a misalighnment it's due to a lower unit being run loose,and wearing the front of the mid AND lower and causing the driveshaft to "lean"backward"...This will have to be corrected,or you'll probably break a shaft...And the only way to check is with the powerhead off and gearcase on to be sure the shaft is centered in the adapter plate hole.And realize,the shorter the shaft,the greater the out of alighnment flexes the shaft.
AS TO spline failure...Don't see it often at all...If someone says"I'vs seen lots of Chris' shaft splines fail",all I can say is I haven't heard of em...and it seems like I would have,Show me.I now know of 4.
In all 4 cases the failure occured within a couple hours and the splines were ground up,not sheared.In all cases there has been a severe (my opinion) misalighnment with the mid,either not aiming the driveshaft at the crankshaft,or not mounting the crankshaft (powerhead) perfectly perpendicular(leaning forward,aft,or to one side.This misalighnment places the load from crank splines to shaft splines on the top of one spline,and the bottom of one spline on the opposite side of the shaft.No longer is the full face of all the splines carrying the load,but the load is being carried by the ever changing top and bottom of 2 splines...instead of the desighners full faced 13 splines,and they will quickly be chipped and worn away,starting at the top and bottom,and meeting in the middle.This is not rocket science,or mysterious...just mechanical common sense.
Regarding shafts and splines...
MERC often spin welds a hardened splined steel tip to their stainless shafts,some are just splined stainless.
The flood of aftermarket shafts we are seeing now do not have hardened steel splines,and also do not appear to be heat treated/hardened...likewise with the MERC all stainless top shafts.
All the shafts I spline do get heat treated and hardened,and hold up well,however they are not as hard as the spun welded tips,and in normal and high performance use there are no problems.
Not being a "kiss and tell"sort of guy,I will not go into all the shafts I've splined for racers and service motors alike,my customers business with me does not get broadcast without permission,and frankly I'm too busy for that stuff.I'v been doing these shafts for over 15 years,lots of em.Average 2-3 a week these days,no justified
complaints.
If putting a hardened tip on the driveshaft makes it go a while,it dosen't cure the misalighnment,just hides it a while...Wouldn't be necessary if things were straight and true...proved that hundreds of times...
I have to wonder what goes next,if run long enough...Crank splines,broken shaft,bearing failure under the pump...I know MERC mids are a lot straighter than necessary,they should relax,mid being a little crooked won't hurt anything...right,Chris

[25two.stroke]

Have you ever had that problem 25? Where the LU looks fine but when you bolt it up to the mid it snugs up fine but it isn’t centered when you look at it from the aft end of the boat looking forward. Just how much misalignment can be tolerated from the lower unit to the midsection? Are these problems of drive shafts snapping below the water pump due to midsection or a possibly bent LU? My splines were not stripped out that go into the motor. The break was so clean that it looked to me like someone to a razor blade to the shaft and cut it.


just want to know what can cause driveshafts to break below the water pump and what can cause drive shafts to despline in the powerhead? Like other then wave bashing and going airborne without throttling back what causes it? How do you even measure to tell if your mids and lowers are out of alignment?

Read Chris' post about OMC snapping driveshats below the pump due to misalignment. It also happens sometimes does to bearing failure where the lower part of the driveshaft seizes up and then the powerhead shears the shaft. The snaps dies to seizing bearings typically result in a twist to a point kinda look, not a straight shear; UNLESS you keep running it and the top spinning part of the shaft grinds it back flat due to friction.

Your off-center issue I see ALL THE TIME. Even new motors from mercury don't align right at the bottom sometimes (due to casting differences). However, the appearance isn't what matters most, and mercury knows that, all that matters is that its aligned inside. I have never seen a mercury factory engine snap a driveshaft below the pump or at the powerhead except when they were abused. 250 and 300 xs motors that frequently get jumped out of the water and the drive doesn't let off the gas (most bass fishermen eager to get somewhere even in rough weather) shear all the time at the pinion gear or at the fusion weld by the crank. You can tell when that happens because its obvious it was a sudden failure, not over time like a seizing support bearing or a misalignment. The crack is all crystalline from sudden excessive force.

In your case I would not worry about it unless you snap another shaft. Then do what I did bolt a lower unit up with no powerhead and check alignment up at the ph mounting area. Measure side to side as well as the vertical angle being square to the mating surface. <Chris can tell you how to do that if and when you need to .

[25two.stroke]

Looks like I got a casting from your batch and one casting from another like you said after you look for that threaded hole that you pointed out!

Does look like you got 2 different castings...however, if it was machined right then it won't matter. Check it before you drop the powerhead on.

[2thelake]

Does look like you got 2 different castings...however, if it was machined right then it won't matter. Check it before you drop the powerhead on.

Can you repost how would you check the midsection for alignment?

do you bolt up mid and lower and take powerhead off and measure like you did from the top then put the power head on and take the lower unit off and then hold an uninstalled drive shaft in the powerheard while you measure from the bottom with the lower unit off to compare the differences in distance from the outside of the hole to the shaft?

[KIRCHNER]

I found a simple way to to check alignment. power head off, lower on. i found a 2fft piece on ss hand rail / bow rail tubing, the I.D. fit perfectly over the dr shaft splines, showing out of the adaptor plate. lay a 2' mech square across plate, front to back,side to side. mine is leaning backward, on acut 15 mid. now im at a stand still. the mis-alignment is obvious. my mid was not cut square, i dont see a cure

[25two.stroke]

I found a simple way to to check alignment. power head off, lower on. i found a 2fft piece on ss hand rail / bow rail tubing, the I.D. fit perfectly over the dr shaft splines, showing out of the adaptor plate. lay a 2' mech square across plate, front to back,side to side. mine is leaning backward, on acut 15 mid. now im at a stand still. the mis-alignment is obvious. my mid was not cut square, i dont see a cure

Well I'm glad my post helped someone already!
Yeah don't put it together crooked it will fail like this one I'm dealing with.
You can fix your mid but its a pain in the ass. Either mill it flat or weld up and drift the holes back over if side to side if thats the issue. Neither is fun.

To check center measure from the powerhead bolt holes to the driveshaft with calipers. Triangulate off multiple holes to make verify your findings. If it seems centered but you suspect the driveshaft is not square to the powerhead you can put a flat plate across the top of the mid, drill a driveshaft sized hole in it, and then get a vise-grip or magnet dial indicator and put it on the driveshaft. Spin the driveshaft and watch the dial and see how many thousandths its leaning.

[2thelake]

Well I'm glad my post helped someone already!
Yeah don't put it together crooked it will fail like this one I'm dealing with.
You can fix your mid but its a pain in the ass. Either mill it flat or weld up and drift the holes back over if side to side if thats the issue. Neither is fun.

To check center measure from the powerhead bolt holes to the driveshaft with calipers. Triangulate off multiple holes to make verify your findings. If it seems centered but you suspect the driveshaft is not square to the powerhead you can put a flat plate across the top of the mid, drill a driveshaft sized hole in it, and then get a vise-grip or magnet dial indicator and put it on the driveshaft. Spin the driveshaft and watch the dial and see how many thousandths its leaning.

I’m a newbie at this and am still trying to understand. So with just the power head off, but mid and lower bolted up tight you rotate the shaft via prop. A dial indicator is set up to be just touching the shaft right below the splines and then zeroed. Turning the shaft will tell you by dial indicator if it is off by however many thousands. That will show if the shaft is bent or if the mid is bending the shaft. The next step is what confuses me…. Are you trying to mimic the powerheads female splined end (where the drive shaft goes into the powerhead correct? So how would you just put a flat plate on there secured with vice grips and take measurements with a dial indicator. I feel like if a shaft was being bent/misaligned it would take a lot more strength then vice grips have to hold a plate there perfectly stationary to mimic the powerhead and inturn bend the shaft. Sorry for all the questions just don’t want to make costly mistakes! Want to really figure this out!

[TraceF3]

Oh ****, I feel for you guys...

...and now I have another thing to worry about

[25two.stroke]

I’m a newbie at this and am still trying to understand. So with just the power head off, but mid and lower bolted up tight you rotate the shaft via prop. A dial indicator is set up to be just touching the shaft right below the splines and then zeroed. Turning the shaft will tell you by dial indicator if it is off by however many thousands. That will show if the shaft is bent or if the mid is bending the shaft. The next step is what confuses me…. Are you trying to mimic the powerheads female splined end (where the drive shaft goes into the powerhead correct? So how would you just put a flat plate on there secured with vice grips and take measurements with a dial indicator. I feel like if a shaft was being bent/misaligned it would take a lot more strength then vice grips have to hold a plate there perfectly stationary to mimic the powerhead and inturn bend the shaft. Sorry for all the questions just don’t want to make costly mistakes! Want to really figure this out!

Chris had me all confused for 20 min while he tried to explain to me how to do this. Its hard to explain, easy to do. Dial indicator goes on the driveshaft and points straight down towards the lower unit making contact with the steel plate. If the driveshaft is at angle the dial indictor will vary as you spin the driveshaft.

[KIRCHNER]

When m a d said the power head will pull it into alignment, i just shook my head, no way. i dont think a dial indicator is the right instrument to use, reasons being, you can move the drive shaft several thousands by hand in all directions because of the distance from the lower unit top bearing. spline alignment and a bent driveshaft are separate issues. wish i had seem this thread sooner, i gotta pull it apart now.

[2thelake]

When m a d said the power head will pull it into alignment, i just shook my head, no way. i dont think a dial indicator is the right instrument to use, reasons being, you can move the drive shaft several thousands by hand in all directions because of the distance from the lower unit top bearing. spline alignment and a bent driveshaft are separate issues. wish i had seem this thread sooner, i gotta pull it apart now.

Wheres that engineer who’s on the Merc V6 history thread lol! I think they mentioned the OMC shafts breaking in his thread. Have to reread that part of it and what he did in it to fix the issue with merc v6. But I think your right there’s nothing holding that shaft at the upper end until you mate it in the power head even then there has to be an allowance for a little play. That is why I was saying you would have to mimic the powerhead splines and the studs to be able to bolt it all together tight with the ability to measure the top of the driveshaft and then now that I think of it some way to mearsure the middle and bottom parts of the shaft at the same time as it spins.

[WaterZebra]

Can you repost how would you check the midsection for alignment?

do you bolt up mid and lower and take powerhead off and measure like you did from the top then put the power head on and take the lower unit off and then hold an uninstalled drive shaft in the powerheard while you measure from the bottom with the lower unit off to compare the differences in distance from the outside of the hole to the shaft?

Enuf about using carpenters squares, straight edges, vernier gauges, plumb bobs and so on. Put the damn mid on a machined layout table and see if the fly cut ends are parallel to each other by a digital scan. Flatness would be a good start (daylight and 0.005 feeler gauges). Doesn't matter what the height dimension is. It will wash with the driveshaft spline end float. If the ends are canted, fly cut the ends just like you would do for an engine head. If you have the "meat" (edge margin) open up the engine stud bores to a maximum ID to "float" the engine. Make sure your studs are not chewed or galled and at MMC (Maximum material condition). Fly cutting the ends should make the engine and gearcase surfaces truly parallel to each other. Oh, and another thing, all these fasteners should be retorqued at least every 10 hours or so. Racers don't have this problem because they are constantly pulling everything apart and reassembling.

[Chaz]

Welp, the last thing I do after cuttin, sypherin, tackin, wigglin, weldin, cursin, clippin an callin it ready to mud n paint ... is give it the clink~clunk test.

I have a hard time holdin the phone and runnin the shaft back n forth .. but ya get the idea .... :thumbsup:


https://youtu.be/SelfmmuVp94

[2thelake]

Welp, the last thing I do after cuttin, sypherin, tackin, wigglin, weldin, cursin, clippin an callin it ready to mud n paint ... is give it the clink~clunk test.

I have a hard time holdin the phone and runnin the shaft back n forth .. but ya get the idea .... :thumbsup:


https://youtu.be/SelfmmuVp94

That’s definitely straight right there! Thanks Chaz!:cheers:

[H2OPERF]

The mid needs to be put in a mill with a dial indicator in the collet to see if the top and bottom surfaces are parallel and go from there... I have a plate made for omcs that has the powerhead bolt pattern and a hole for the drive shaft to just fit thru I have used it many times checking engines that have broken mutiple drive shafts. Looks good as always Chaz

[LakeFever]

Could set the mid on a piece of level glass elevated enough to put a spot line laser under the glass and broadcast the laser up through the center of the hole and measure the difference with calipers. If you cant find center make a bushing and center drill it to 1/16” or so. Just enough for the laser to shine through. Check for parallel surfaces too while your at it. I cant think of any other way to measure it although Chaz method is undisputedly excellent.

[Chaz]

The mid needs to be put in a mill with a dial indicator in the collet to see if the top and bottom surfaces are parallel and go from there... I have a plate made for omcs that has the powerhead bolt pattern and a hole for the drive shaft to just fit thru I have used it many times checking engines that have broken mutiple drive shafts. Looks good as always Chaz

I have a friend who has made the same thing , the same way for the last 20 years or so , tell me I will never be rich ... because I just can't leave "well enough alone" . :o

I rekkon he's right, but usually before I'm half done with a project, I've already deemed it inadequate and redesigned it in my head over and over .... :leaving:

Building mids .. either cast factory stuff .. or the stick-mids for Gordon ... can sometimes be tough. A small tack can pull the parts over ... and into a bind. Sometimes I just have to walk away for a day to regain my sanity ... well what little I have left .. :D

Plates, bars, bushings, bosses, transfer dowels ... and in the end, your right ... tramming front to back ... left to right produces an exact number ... :thumbsup:



"WARNING" I was so happy I said "biotch" in this vid ... :o "WARNING"



https://youtu.be/GRA1E2wc-Xk

[WaterZebra]

Take a look at your top photo. The lug profiles (thickness) are different from "core shift" at the foundry. Not a big deal for MAD EFI based on numbers cast but would be unacceptable for Mercury Marine. Matching engine block stud bores to gearcase bolt patterns while keeping the driveshaft axis coaxial to prevent runout side load failures can be tricky. Mercury Marine HiPerf knows this. It would be interesting to see MAD EFI's "jig" for putting in the second set of bores and how the top and bottom end plane surfaces are kept co-planer and to what tolerance? Can the adapter plate be reworked to provide a bigger clearance bore for the driveshaft? Is there evidence of "printing" on the driveshaft O/D?

I forgot one other factor to add to this dimensional salad. Aluminum shrinks 1/4 inch per foot when cooling from molten state. Carbon and stainless steel shrinks about 3/16 inch per foot. This could be another factor which is "moving" the boss dimensions. Photos indicate that the mid casting was not adjusted for "best fit" prior to machining.

[Chaz]

Todd would never say let the powerhead pull the driveshaft straight .. he knows better.

As far as shrinkage goes .. I get a bit of that when it's cold .. :D As far as the cans go, they are cast in one state and machined in another, so I'm sure they have enough time to cool off. Temp is a valid point though. We do outboard blocks with zero deck. Car blocks (alum block - steel sleeve) get done with the sleeves proud by .005-.006 thou to allow for growth.

Lets keep in mind that there have been hundreds of these cans done , with only a few driveshaft problems. And those have been traced back to multiple other issues.
When these cans are machined, they are surfaced on both top and bottom. Then as stated, the lower yoke holes. From there , a jig is bolted up that captures top and bottom that has holes for the drill + tap pattern. Those three positions are always the same. Keep in mind these are castings, not billet parts .. so like car blocks look to be offset or core shifted ... these can look to be drilled out of square or rotated, but all the holes line up.
In reality, it's a kit. It's up to the builder to check for casting flash in the driveshaft tunnel. To see how well the hole in the adapter plate is aligned. Etc.

I have a couple ideas (can't sleep) I'll take pictures .. but now I gotta run thru the rain locker.. gotta go get a physical to see if I'm healthy enough to be put under next week for my shoulder opp. Pppfftttt .... they should have seen me in my drinkin days .. :eek: :D

[25two.stroke]

Todd would never say let the powerhead pull the driveshaft straight .. he knows better.

508550

I woulda hoped, but those were his words.



Lets keep in mind that there have been hundreds of these cans done , with only a few driveshaft problems. And those have been traced back to multiple other issues.
When these cans are machined, they are surfaced on both top and bottom. Then as stated, the lower yoke holes. From there , a jig is bolted up that captures top and bottom that has holes for the drill + tap pattern. Those three positions are always the same. Keep in mind these are castings, not billet parts .. so like car blocks look to be offset or core shifted ... these can look to be drilled out of square or rotated, but all the holes line up.
In reality, it's a kit. It's up to the builder to check for casting flash in the driveshaft tunnel. To see how well the hole in the adapter plate is aligned. Etc.



Yeah I figure if this is one of 500 or 1000 to have a problem then its still damn good. I know that core shift occurs in casting and how the bolt holes are aligned relative to the casting doesn't matter, its just cosmetic. What really matters is that the lower bolt pattern is aligned with the powerhead bolt pattern. This one is not. And if he expects the builder to correct a 0.009" misalignment in his cnc work then that is crazy. 0.001 or 0.002 ... maybe. But I bet you wouldn't build a mid that binds when you put the powerhead splines down to the lower, and then tell your customer its fine and you see nothing wrong.

[FUJIMO]

...wondering if he has another mid he could ship you?...

[25two.stroke]

...wondering if he has another mid he could ship you?...

I woulda loved that. Its not like I said he was wrong or nothing in the beginning. I just didn't get it. I did everything he said to do to just verify there was an issue and he says there's nothing wrong. So I hope he is right. I hope now that I put it all back together with a welded shaft then it will last. But I have a hard time believing it. Only time will tell. And I hope if something breaks again he mans up like I would and says yeah send it back and HE can look at it. I bet if he put it back in his jig and told the cnc to cut the top bolt pattern it would start cutting in different places that the holes are now. I think its as simple as the cnc made a mistake but Todd said quote "That would be impossible" for the cnc to make an error.

[PanRonnie]

can you measure the offsett on your block your crankshaft socket compared to the holes!?
i am thinking the surface from the top of the can and the gearcase mating area are not completly paralel
possible solution would be install the mid plate as in the picture and redeck the gearcase mating area
now the gearcase mating area and the top of the midplate should be paralel

[25two.stroke]

can you measure the offsett on your block your crankshaft socket compared to the holes!?
i am thinking the surface from the top of the can and the gearcase mating area are not completly paralel
possible solution would be install the mid plate as in the picture and redeck the gearcase mating area
now the gearcase mating area and the top of the midplate should be paralel

On the powerhead side the crank is perfectly centered between the studs. The red line in your drawing shows that the CL of the D.S. is 0.009" out of center for a total of 0.018 difference of measurement from the driveshaft CL to the port stud hole and to the starboard stud hole. Yes, you are right, this could be due to the top and bottom surfaces of the midsection not being parallel or a shift in the alignment of the bolt holes. I measured the adapter plate itself to verify it is still square and it is. I got the engine all assembled now and built exactly how Todd said to do it. First trial run will be this Friday.

[rprinzo]

On the powerhead side the crank is perfectly centered between the studs. The red line in your drawing shows that the CL of the D.S. is 0.009" out of center for a total of 0.018 difference of measurement from the driveshaft CL to the port stud hole and to the starboard stud hole. Yes, you are right, this could be due to the top and bottom surfaces of the midsection not being parallel or a shift in the alignment of the bolt holes. I measured the adapter plate itself to verify it is still square and it is. I got the engine all assembled now and built exactly how Todd said to do it. First trial run will be this Friday.
and what happens if it breaks again and does damage to the powerhead,then your gonna have to eat it. if he said theres nothin wrong with it he should have no problem trading it out for another one. and if hes got a problem with that then that about says it all. hes gonna say its your fault if it breaks again.you shouldnt even run it.

[InjectorService]

As I was reading this thread I was wondering.... this time the driveshaft splines stripped out, but what are the chances the crank would strip rather? What about the extra pressure put on the lower crank bearing?

[WiseCraft]

I've been having a weird vibration after the 15" can swap. Wonder if the driveshaft is rubbing. Guess ill yank the power head.

[25two.stroke]

As I was reading this thread I was wondering.... this time the driveshaft splines stripped out, but what are the chances the crank would strip rather? What about the extra pressure put on the lower crank bearing?

Oh yeah! Obviously cut and resplined stainless is softer than the crank and softer than the hardened splines mercury uses. In a misalignment it breaks at the weakest point. In Chris' shaft the splines were the weakest and it did nothing to the crank. I prefer that. I run his splines to 115 in my mirage and have on numerous other boats. They always hold up and get little to no wear when everything is aligned.

I've seen mercury hardened splines worn halfway through the teeth on bass boats in factory engines that are constantly in and out of the water. In these cases the crank still seems to hold up so I think the crank is even harder than the hardened shaft splines. However, If what I have put together with the 300X breaks, then I'm not sure where the weakest point is. I think below the water pump where the shaft support ends. Or is could be at the weld where it was spliced. I just hope it doesnt break at 120 mph + cause the boat he has it on is capable of 130 mph. Image breaking a driveshaft at that speed!

[WiseCraft]

Oh yeah! Obviously cut and resplined stainless is softer than the crank and softer than the hardened splines mercury uses. In a misalignment it breaks at the weakest point. In Chris' shaft the splines were the weakest and it did nothing to the crank. I prefer that. I run his splines to 115 in my mirage and have on numerous other boats. They always hold up and get little to no wear when everything is aligned.

I've seen mercury hardened splines worn halfway through the teeth on bass boats in factory engines that are constantly in and out of the water. In these cases the crank still seems to hold up so I think the crank is even harder than the hardened shaft splines. However, If what I have put together with the 300X breaks, then I'm not sure where the weakest point is. I think below the water pump where the shaft support ends. Or is could be at the weld where it was spliced. I just hope it doesnt break at 120 mph + cause the boat he has it on is capable of 130 mph. Image breaking a driveshaft at that speed!


Do you recommend cut and respline or cut and weld?

[25two.stroke]

Do you recommend cut and respline or cut and weld?

I always cut and resplined until this. And I still cut and respline all my own stuff. From what I've heard its about 50/50 whether people cut or weld. Really most of the time its personal preference. Some occasions require welding: like mixing two types of engines, powerhead of one and lower off another, or when shafts are skinny in the middle and full diameter at the ends (yamaha, merc 4stroke, evinrude)...if you are trying to do it yourself welding can be a pain in the ass. I've done it. The shafts want to pull as they cool and you end up with a bent shaft.

[rgsauger]

I do not even want to think about hitting a bluegill at 130 miles an hour!

[WiseCraft]

I always cut and resplined until this. And I still cut and respline all my own stuff. From what I've heard its about 50/50 whether people cut or weld. Really most of the time its personal preference. Some occasions require welding: like mixing two types of engines, powerhead of one and lower off another, or when shafts are skinny in the middle and full diameter at the ends (yamaha, merc 4stroke, evinrude)...if you are trying to do it yourself welding can be a pain in the ass. I've done it. The shafts want to pull as they cool and you end up with a bent shaft.


I lost my lower over the weekend and getting a new/used one. I need to have the shaft shorten and I have the option of getting it resplined locally without disassembly. Or take it apart and send the driveshaft to Carabella and cut and weld. Just not sure which option is the best.

[Chaz]

And here I thought I was the guy who got the 1 in a 1,000,000 , needle in the hay-stack stuff to deal with .... :eek:

I've read this 10 times to be sure, but no where did Todd say .. put it together .. no matter what breaks .. I'll cover , no problem.

What he said was it looks good. Looking at a picture , from far away and being there in person .. he probably should have said . send it back and I'll look at it if your concerned about it. If it's bad , I'll send you another, if its not , you eat the return shipping.

To be fair, he also asked .. if you checked to see if it was rubbing in the drive shaft tunnel ..??? I haven't seen an answer ... thats where 99% of driveshaft issues originate. I have told him before he should have them checked before they leave the machinist. But then they dont do a mock up on each can ... so where do you draw the line as parts supplier .. and whats the blueprint / builders responsibility. Would people pay an extra $500.00 a copy .. and even then , it really only fit the mock up parts if you splitting hairs.
And if you think that one might have issues .. you should have seen the "first gen, before he bought the company" ... :o
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=508550&d=1660062859

Yes you are right , the crank is between the two stud holes .. but also to the rear , if you want to be accurate about it.

The drive shaft hole, however is not. Here's the straight as an arrow, true to the world plate. The DS hole is not a carrier bearing, so all it requires is to is clearanced.
And for murkery .. I'd say they hit it pretty good .. I've seem much worse from them ...

And hey ... how bout them two front holes for the 8mm bolts .. 12-13 mm holes .. :rolleyes:

https://i.imgur.com/L1fBRgHl.jpg

Yes the 10 mm side stud holes are bushed .. 14 mm hole for 10 mm stud. As my black racin buddy says .. they wanted to be able to hit the side of the barn wiff a red apple.
Me, I went to great pains :cool: to use the studs threaded holes as my pilot . ;)
And the stock location .. most deff not a GPS way point by any means ...

Thats a 1/2" bolt .. with lots of room to spare .. I'll have to ask my friend .. about using a green apple .. might be enough room for a 10 mm stud .. :o

https://i.imgur.com/XZy8HSGl.jpg

I rekkon that just leave us with the dowel pins to locate and hole everything in place.

Their's with a mushed gasket .... :eek:

https://i.imgur.com/PRzqmlxl.jpg

Mine .. wiff a 3/8" piece of alum I use as a drift .. for a height model ..

https://i.imgur.com/l34fWhcl.jpg

Now if someone is building a breathed on 300x that runs the lower unit in an open tunnel ... north of 120 mph , I'm gonna go out on a limb and say .. there are a few parts that need a slight upgrade, because if not .. this is what ya to look forward to ... just sayin ..:o

https://i.imgur.com/ADLlnmbl.jpg

[H2OPERF]

I honestly can't believe your gonna run it if the gear case is loaded, the shaft will work harden above the thrust bearings or possibly in the middle if you shortened it there and snap again, thats crazy, find the issue. With the water pump/shift shaft removed let the GC hang on the bolts and see what the gap looks like...if it wont push up and mate to the mid with out a gap on the mating surfaces by using hand pressure only no reason to run it and trash expensive parts. jmho

[25two.stroke]

So a lot of stuff was said on the phone that was not recorded in our emails. The gist of the email there that I posted was just to show that Todd saw all the same pictures as you all saw and he said he sees nothing wrong. That is all the email was for.

No, the driveshaft is not rubbing anywhere. And oh yeah, I know the parts before Todd were iffy. I would expect, however, that a mid purchased from anyone (unless it was disclosed that it has issues prior to purchase) would be able to bolt up and work as is. Maybe some light adjustment is acceptable: the stuff that can be done with hand tools that any person who puts these together has. But if one bought a mid and paid the price its worth and then it needed welding, milling, or any major repairs I would say thats a problem. Whether it be a used factory mid, new mid, or cut and welded mid. If someone's paying thousands for a can they should get one that is semi straight IMO.

On the phone Todd said, and Craig Collabella said, that welded shafts are far superior and I need to put it back together with the welded shaft and it will be fine. Thats what they told me/us to do and that is what my customer wants to do. I think its wrong. VERY WRONG. But that is what I am being told to do and I am VERY grateful for all of your responses. Every one. They are all helpful and I love you guys. Yall know way more than me and most of you have been doing this longer than I've been alive.

[Dave S]

The dowel pin takes the side load.... not the bolts.....0018 is a bad side load on the lower bearings... a 2 peace shaft will be more forgiving.........pushin' 120 anyones best.....

[Chaz]

There is little more add ... lets try a different way .. (I can be long winded) :o

May-sur-in stufff ...

Stud edge to D.S. edge . Both are close as possible to blocks lower deck. (point of origin) Pretty accurate ... :)

Screw a stud in the block , let it go thru an adapter plate that offeres no support ( other than to maybe touch on one side and skew it off on an angle)

Then try to measure 6" away from origin ( both stud and DS have slop) and you will get bogus readings. You would need to bridge the stud and shaft to hold them both still and straight. Before even think about measuring. At least in my world ..

The easiest, best, most country boy method I know has already been shown. I sliding drive shaft. Two locating spots in the lower, the crank splines make three. As you can see .. two places can have slight misalignment and a shaft will still go thru, three or more and it has to be straight in order for the shaft to move freely.

Trying to raise a lower unit .. (maybe with the studs out) and start the shaft in a blind area , raise it straight .. to see if it seats on the dowels .. is one step worse. Second to that would be trying to lower a heavy azz powerhead gently over the shaft until it seats. You might feel some stiction as a misaligned shaft is bowed into place. But overall either way the shaft / crank alignment is out of clear sight.

Friday was the big day ... no report .. ???

Gear mesh paint , grease pattern , Machinist dye .. all would provide a "running pattern" within a minute .. running on the hose.

Pointing a misguided finger ... :nonod: :nonod: :nonod: and leaving it hanging is not good :nonod: :nonod: :nonod:

On the other hand .... ;)

I know people think I'm a little rough on Mecurarely's , pricing, machine work ... parts quality and consistency . How would you like to find this jewel in your 300x .. :rolleyes:

https://i.imgur.com/PCZazTNl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GfCiPzT.jpg

[25two.stroke]

There is little more add ... lets try a different way .. (I can be long winded) :o

May-sur-in stufff ...

Stud edge to D.S. edge . Both are close as possible to blocks lower deck. (point of origin) Pretty accurate ... :)

Screw a stud in the block , let it go thru an adapter plate that offeres no support ( other than to maybe touch on one side and skew it off on an angle)

Then try to measure 6" away from origin ( both stud and DS have slop) and you will get bogus readings. You would need to bridge the stud and shaft to hold them both still and straight. Before even think about measuring. At least in my world ..

The easiest, best, most country boy method I know has already been shown. I sliding drive shaft. Two locating spots in the lower, the crank splines make three. As you can see .. two places can have slight misalignment and a shaft will still go thru, three or more and it has to be straight in order for the shaft to move freely.

Trying to raise a lower unit .. (maybe with the studs out) and start the shaft in a blind area , raise it straight .. to see if it seats on the dowels .. is one step worse. Second to that would be trying to lower a heavy azz powerhead gently over the shaft until it seats. You might feel some stiction as a misaligned shaft is bowed into place. But overall either way the shaft / crank alignment is out of clear sight.

Friday was the big day ... no report .. ???

Gear mesh paint , grease pattern , Machinist dye .. all would provide a "running pattern" within a minute .. running on the hose.

Pointing a misguided finger ... :nonod: :nonod: :nonod: and leaving it hanging is not good :nonod: :nonod: :nonod:

On the other hand .... ;)

I know people think I'm a little rough on Mecurarely's , pricing, machine work ... parts quality and consistency . How would you like to find this jewel in your 300x .. :rolleyes:

I've seen rods like that too. Many poptimax have them in it. :eek:
Friday he did not run, it was blowing 25+ our new trial date is Monday the 22nd. Definitely will have pics and info that day.

[Chaz]

Friday he did not run, it was blowing 25+ our new trial date is Monday the 22nd. Definitely will have pics and info that day.

I have a saying ... nothing is a mistake, until it leaves my door unmentioned.

Just ask anyone who has been thru the "better man program" (IE has worked for me)

A little less than a week is what you have to be sure if what you put out your door is correct or not. Has had all "problem areas dealt with.
Just slapping something together, and then having a news crew assembled to cover the potential problem's or catastrophic failure .. doesn't shift the responsibility to anyone other than the guy in charge of the quality of the build.

I've built plenty of 6 second 200 mph chassis in my day. A complete rolling chassis came with a brand new brake kit ... sitting in the drivers seat. Yes I would run the brake line thru the chassis, flare the ends. make a master cylinder mount, etc. But the hard parts were not mounted. The new owner signed that he was aware that this was a kit car .. that needed to be fully assembled.

I've mentioned "other" problem areas, results of ignoring them. Shown video's of the correct way to check alignment ,, etc.
There is a reason that the 300xs adapter plate uses all short studs, half up and half down. They knew they had an issue. That was their way of correcting it, and I hate to admit it :D but they did a good job.
Putting together a 130 mph boat with the older 6 long, 4 short stud arrangement and not dealing with the underlying issues ... well brother, you already seen it once. How do I know ... I seen it too .. :cheers:

[2thelake]

I've seen rods like that too. Many poptimax have them in it. :eek:
Friday he did not run, it was blowing 25+ our new trial date is Monday the 22nd. Definitely will have pics and info that day.

Patiently waiting to hear what happened! :eek:

I hope it didn’t break!

[stoker2001]

509048Pretty EPIC day on ore 1000 mile Delta today!!I will let 25two.stroke comment..we ran around 75 miles with 4 mirages 2 STVs and one Allison

[25two.stroke]

Great day on the river! The boat owner loves the setup and how easily it does 120. As you can see I get left in the propwash quite a bit by the stvs...We will pull the lower off and check out the wear on the splines but so far it has held together! Maybe its good to go!!!

https://youtu.be/QDoZuc6M5PI

https://youtu.be/p9Szxt6rjSo

https://youtu.be/eBJYoN2V_JU

[rprinzo]

Great day on the river! The boat owner loves the setup and how easily it does 120. As you can see I get left in the propwash quite a bit by the stvs...We will pull the lower off and check out the wear on the splines but so far it has held together! Maybe its good to go!!!

https://youtu.be/QDoZuc6M5PI

https://youtu.be/p9Szxt6rjSo

https://youtu.be/eBJYoN2V_JU


pretty sick dude,i want one:cool:

[oldschoolltv]

Was the Orange and Yellow STV originally here in Florida? Looks like a nice river to run.

[25two.stroke]

Was the Orange and Yellow STV originally here in Florida? Looks like a nice river to run.

Not sure where it was from. Someone on here knows the history of it. The old owner had two of them, that one and a yellow one. The yellow one he flipped doing 140 mph I believe. He sold that one shortly after he flipped the other and it went to some guy in Texas that had it for a few years and didn't know what to do with it, so he sold it to the guy out here who has it. I can just watch that last video over and over. He pulls WAY harder over 100 mph than the Rufus' yellow stv with the 280. Both boats are the same year, same setback. Just different engines and weight distribution in the boat.

The jack plates they are using are rite-hite plates (mechanical). They are reasonably priced and super clean looking on the boats...I 'll definitely consider them for my future projects if they last on the STVs

[stoker2001]

Not sure where it was from. Someone on here knows the history of it. The old owner had two of them, that one and a yellow one. The yellow one he flipped doing 140 mph I believe. He sold that one shortly after he flipped the other and it went to some guy in Texas that had it for a few years and didn't know what to do with it, so he sold it to the guy out here who has it. I can just watch that last video over and over. He pulls WAY harder over 100 mph than the Rufus' yellow stv with the 280. Both boats are the same year, same setback. Just different engines and weight distribution in the boat.

The jack plates they are using are rite-hite plates (mechanical). They are reasonably priced and super clean looking on the boats...I 'll definitely consider them for my future projects if they last on the STVs
hank Hogan from Georgia was one that had bad blowover (all yellow STV) and Did own Bill Erkelens boat at one time,but Bill bought off someone else..

[stoker2001]

Was the Orange and Yellow STV originally here in Florida? Looks like a nice river to run.
google Stockton/Sacramento Delta...1000 miles of fresh protected flat H20 hotboaters dream...

[stoker2001]

N. I can just watch that last video over and over. He pulls WAY harder over 100 mph than the Rufus' yellow stv with the 280. Both boats are the same year, same setback. Just different engines and weight distribution in the boat.

Ts
that last vid,Bill leaves on Rufas like he is standing still..just goes to show how much torque a Dave Bush 3.0L 300X has over the little 2.5L:eek:

[2thelake]

that last vid,Bill leaves on Rufas like he is standing still..just goes to show how much torque a Dave Bush 3.0L 300X has over the little 2.5L:eek:

stoker why you gotta stick that screwdriver in me and twist it ??

[stoker2001]

stoker why you gotta stick that screwdriver in me and twist it ??
HA!
Thought at first you might be Rufus? I had a dress it’s got me scratching my head though

[2thelake]

HA!
Thought at first you might be Rufus? I had a dress it’s got me scratching my head though

no lol I just love the 2.5L > 300x

[stoker2001]

no lol I just love the 2.5L > 300x
me too,that’s what I run, you just cannot deny the potential..Especially when Dave bush works it over!

[Chaz]

Patiently waiting to hear what happened! :eek:

I hope it didn’t break!


With nearly 4000 views ...

I would like to see the math corrected on the first couple of pages .

Any "real" evidence of the can as being the culprit.

What steps that were taken to assure alignment / adequate clearance, in the last assembly.

At this point ... I'd settle for just seeing the "broken drive shaft" and the O.A. length measurement.

Chaz = thinking an apology is in order, not video's of weekend joy riding.

While it looks like fun was had by one and all ... Those belong in the general boating section ... ;)

[25two.stroke]

Not sure what math needs correcting. The shaft was, and is presently, 0.019" out of center the the starboard and forward of the center of the crankshaft.

Not sure what real evidence is, we checked with other lower units and adapters and neither of those are the issue: which leaves only the midsection to cause this misalignment.

No additional clearancing was done in the latest assembly as compared to the first assembly because Todd assured me the original driveshaft was the problem, nothing else.

The broken driveshaft is part of the new driveshaft, and I have the length written down at the shop, I can post that later. As far as seeing the broken driveshaft, not sure if you mean the first one or the one in there now that I suspect will fail...anyway here is the first one. Its obvious from the asmount of stripped area the spline purchase was correct: therefore the shaft was the correct length. Approximately 0.75" of spline purchase is what mercury has on 3.0Ls

509298509299

I will for surely offer up an apology if it turns out I was wrong in thinking the midsection is bad. However, in order for that to happen I will at least pull this lower and check the splines (after only one run). And then wait for it to last more than about 10 hours like the first setup did.

Videos were to show the boat made it through a day :p

[25two.stroke]

26-7/8" spline to spline, no threads in measurement.

[oldschoolltv]

Not a merc guy but is that enough spline engagement?

[Chaz]

I looked closer at the whole upper hole pattern and it was not centered in the casting at all. It was about 1/16" shifted over to the starboard. I thought, "thats odd, but I guess it doesn't matter. just bad casting. And if the lower bolt pattern is aligned to the upper bolt pattern then its all good."

508413
508414


508415

Driveshaft touching the one side of the adapter plate and about 1/8" away from the other side.

508416



I measured the misalignment in the mad EFI mid and it was 0.019" different from one side to the other: so 0.0095" off center. THATS MORE THAN 1/16 OF AN INCH!


I agree, if the whole thing was off center it wouldn't really matter.


The original Chris Carson splines, sure they are softer than mercury, but I run them, everyone I know around here with 15" mids run cut and splined shafts...its never been an issue here till now. It did take 120 miles for it to fail, and sure the hard mercury splines probably will last longer. So I expect the motor to run good for 4 or 5 trips. But I am 90% sure its gonna fail again, maybe not at the powerhead splines like the first case, but its gonna snap that shaft at the weakest point: probably below the water pump like on an OMC. What is ya'lls opinion on this matter?

I'm not a fan of the bolt pattern being rolled to the right .. but as you stated (but didn't show) as long as the base (bottom) is rolled the same amount, in the same direction ... all will be well.

Exception being ... if the shaft is in contact with with something along the way. In your case, it was / is the hole in the adapter plate.
I recently asked if you did anything but replace the shaft .. you said no.

I like to see .040" - .060" wiggle room in rotating - swinging parts. In this case, being a shaft captured at each end and free to move over a two foot section in the middle .. I'd say .060" to .080" would be a safer minimum .

Long story short .. die grinding the adapter hole = no more issue

I also agree if a shaft is measured to be off .019 more on one side than the other, it would need to be moved .0095 twords the big side to be in the center.

However you claimed .0095 is more than a 1/16 th of an inch.

A 1/16" = .0625

.0625 / .0095 = 6.578 So in reality, it's actually more than five time smaller than a sixteenth of an inch.

Hold that thought ...


508418
508420

3.218" from the outside of the powerhead stud hole to the driveshaft on the port side
508421
3.058" from the outside of the powerhead stud hole to the driveshaft on the starboard side

I am not one to stir up trouble, but I just kind feel like this is all garbage.[/QUOTE]


3.218 - 3.058 = .160 (almost 3/16") which would require a .080" shift to be centered, under normal circumstances .

I've shown what it took to fix the twice too large adapter plate holes for them to be considered in line with the threaded holes in the block. Using a factory clearanced plate puts you out in left field ... before you even start.

Having the shaft in contact with the adapter plate hole (little or a lot) puts your second point of reference just as bogus.

Hence my statement about .. math issues on post #1

Your first picture in the last three clearly shows that if you make an X across the four front stud holes ... neither line intersects the drive shaft hole or the current position of the shaft itself. Another reason it's a poor location to try and establish a correct center line.

This is only dealing with post #1

So much more Chaz head shaking between this point .. and the "joy ride" .. :p

Before it's all over , instead of looking for a bad guy to point your finger at, If it hasn't dawned on you yet ..Chaz = thinkin, you'll start lookin at the the three fingers pointing back at you.
And I'm not pointing a finger, I just know from breaking a lot of nice $hiz myself over the decades .. you gotta watch these things like a newborn baby .. them little ******* will roll off the bed , in the blink of an eye .. :eek: :o ;)

[25two.stroke]

I like that you think, and I believe you are one of the most thoughtful people on here. And I love that you are so willing to share your lifelong experience, along with detailed pics of how to fix stuff. Not a lot of people take the time to do that!

I added a zero on accident. Yes your second set of math is right. 0.160" difference from side to side. 0.080 different from stud hole to stud hole. Which, as you noted, the studs are not in line with the driveshaft. No X or line would intersect the crank/driveshaft CL. Thats why I measured off two sets of stud holes to triangulate and figure how much the shaft is truly out of center. That turned out to be 0.190" forward and to starboard.

The shaft touches the adapter plate hole when it is relaxed: meaning no powerhead. However, there were no signs of wear on either the driveshaft or the adapter plate; which leads me to believe when the powerhead is installed the shaft is pulled back to center enough to not contact the driveshaft housing by the water pump or the adapter plate hole.

I know you showed me how to fix and how to verify the shaft is coming up to the powerhead perfectly. Your mid you built in the video was PERFECT! I will do all those steps if and when I am hired to fix this issue. Right now I am next to the common man in this job. I was a robot bolting stuff together and a professional opinion when things broke. I didn't build the engine, I have no liability for the engine. From the very beginning I thought things were wrong, but the owner of all this stuff wanted it put together. Thats where I am in a hard place. If I was building the engine for someone as a paid professional, or if I was building it for myself I woulda made it right the first time. I build engines on a regular basis, not a lot, but maybe 15 to 25 a year. All my other time is basic, and not so basic, service stuff. Nevertheless, where I am at with this project is I am saying its wrong how its put together.

I think its the mid, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe its something I did. Maybe its something else that I didn't do. I do not know. Thats why I came here. To compare my professional opinion to all of yall who have been at it longer than me. It seems the consensus is that I am right about something being wrong. What exactly is wrong theres no clear picture from the information I have provided to you. That is true. But, in order to find out that information that we need to figure what EXACTLY is wrong, I need to take things all back apart again. And the owner of this piece does not want to do that. He wants it together (wrong) exactly how it is. Which is what TODD told him to do. Put it back together how it is with a welded shaft.

So in reality I got my answer from everyone here. Yes it is wrong: the driveshaft out of center is a problem. The cause of its out of center I have my suspicion and other people here have other suspicions. Thats ok. Thats great actually. If and when I am contracted to take this mess all back apart and make it right then we will get closure. But as of now I don't have the approval to fix the problem. I had to put it back together crooked even though that made my stomach turn. It aint my motor.:nonod:

I am sorry Todd, I don't have enough information to tell for sure why this driveshaft is out of center. So as of now it aint your fault. You say its good how it is, so I will trust you that its good how it is. I hope you are right.

:leaving:

[rprinzo]

I like that you think, and I believe you are one of the most thoughtful people on here. And I love that you are so willing to share your lifelong experience, along with detailed pics of how to fix stuff. Not a lot of people take the time to do that!

I added a zero on accident. Yes your second set of math is right. 0.160" difference from side to side. 0.080 different from stud hole to stud hole. Which, as you noted, the studs are not in line with the driveshaft. No X or line would intersect the crank/driveshaft CL. Thats why I measured off two sets of stud holes to triangulate and figure how much the shaft is truly out of center. That turned out to be 0.190" forward and to starboard.

The shaft touches the adapter plate hole when it is relaxed: meaning no powerhead. However, there were no signs of wear on either the driveshaft or the adapter plate; which leads me to believe when the powerhead is installed the shaft is pulled back to center enough to not contact the driveshaft housing by the water pump or the adapter plate hole.

I know you showed me how to fix and how to verify the shaft is coming up to the powerhead perfectly. Your mid you built in the video was PERFECT! I will do all those steps if and when I am hired to fix this issue. Right now I am next to the common man in this job. I was a robot bolting stuff together and a professional opinion when things broke. I didn't build the engine, I have no liability for the engine. From the very beginning I thought things were wrong, but the owner of all this stuff wanted it put together. Thats where I am in a hard place. If I was building the engine for someone as a paid professional, or if I was building it for myself I woulda made it right the first time. I build engines on a regular basis, not a lot, but maybe 15 to 25 a year. All my other time is basic, and not so basic, service stuff. Nevertheless, where I am at with this project is I am saying its wrong how its put together.

I think its the mid, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe its something I did. Maybe its something else that I didn't do. I do not know. Thats why I came here. To compare my professional opinion to all of yall who have been at it longer than me. It seems the consensus is that I am right about something being wrong. What exactly is wrong theres no clear picture from the information I have provided to you. That is true. But, in order to find out that information that we need to figure what EXACTLY is wrong, I need to take things all back apart again. And the owner of this piece does not want to do that. He wants it together (wrong) exactly how it is. Which is what TODD told him to do. Put it back together how it is with a welded shaft.

So in reality I got my answer from everyone here. Yes it is wrong: the driveshaft out of center is a problem. The cause of its out of center I have my suspicion and other people here have other suspicions. Thats ok. Thats great actually. If and when I am contracted to take this mess all back apart and make it right then we will get closure. But as of now I don't have the approval to fix the problem. I had to put it back together crooked even though that made my stomach turn. It aint my motor.:nonod:

I am sorry Todd, I don't have enough information to tell for sure why this driveshaft is out of center. So as of now it aint your fault. You say its good how it is, so I will trust you that its good how it is. I hope you are right.

:leaving:

you ARE beyond your years

[Chaz]

Not a merc guy but is that enough spline engagement?

If you measure the height of a 1/4" nut, it is a quarter inch tall.

If you measure the height of a 3/8" nut, it is three eight's of an inch tall.

If you measure a 7/8" nut, it is seven eight's of an inch tall.

The spline engagement of a Mercury 7/8's drive shaft is 13/16" . Being short by 1/16 breaks the **GOBIT rules of engagement .. double that number .. How did Van Halen say it .. I went to the edge, there I stood and looked down. Lost a lot of friends there bay-bay ... ;)

**Good Ole Boy Institute of Technology :)



Page two .. contained lots of non accurate ways to check to see if crank / drive shaft alignment was correct. Including mine ... :D

While mine give's the sight, sound, lack of stiction in the splines entire travel of engagement. I have no doubt there is equipment out there that is finite enough to find a discrepancy. More than likely, the same that would be needed to catch the exact moment a quarter that was flipped in the air .. changed direction and started it's decent ... :)

Drawing an X between between four points of inaccurately drilled holes , that are on divergent plane .. I've said it a few times already, if it hasn't sunkin in .. it's just not gonna .. :o

I did see where the use of a square was mentioned. The perfect time to use that would have been when the "brand new from Mercury" was used to check for lower unit flatness. Since Merc never made a 15" 3.0L . the use of a 20, 25 or 30" shaft (longer the better) and a long leg square would show a gap at the top on one side and at the bottom of the other ..

I agree with Kirchy, all a dial indicator would show is if the shaft itself is bent.

So you see my apprehension .. weird math, bad points of origin, and the wrong tool for the right job .. One thing is for sure .. Prince / Sacto .. LOL , easy to tel, that's one of yours .. :D

Something that bothers me though. You told me early on that Todd told you to do it this way or that .. but didn't remember the exact conversation.
In your response last night/ this morning you said, your just a robot, Todd told the owner how to put it together. :cool:

You mentioned being a professional ... a number of times.

I have to admit, I'll hand truck boxes of parts outside ... if someone want's to have me throw some junk together that I feel is going to come back and bite me later.
Might be un-professional, but I'd rather be thought of as an azz now, than to have to waste time defending myself after the fact .. :cool:

While you have to wait to see if your customer's drive shaft strips again to speculate again on why it happened.
I have a few MAD cans here in my possession to evaluate. And even though I love Todd like a brother .. err .. son. (my wife calls him her eldest) I will post an HONEST report on what I find.
However , I had shoulder surgery two weeks ago tomorrow. My doc told me yesterday ... I wasn't allowed back in the shop for at least another two weeks .. :(
Maybe I'll get one of them laser flashlights and point one of my neighbors .. put this black thing right here .. up on that machine over there ... :cheers:

[rgsauger]

Screw the doc, Chaz. You can at least run the power feed on the Bridgeport! :D

[25two.stroke]

Not a merc guy but is that enough spline engagement?

The short answer to your question is: yes, according to mercury. Not according to theory, according to mercury.
Chaz says 13/16" on Mercury's 7/8" dia. shafts, I measure it at just over 3/4". That doesn't really matter though.

Also remember, merc didn't change the length of shafts when they stacked an extra gasket and a stainless pan under a powerhead for a lightweight cowl. So that takes away almost another 1/8" of spline engagement!

That is what mercury produced and it seemed to work on their 300x 280 260 s3000 etc. Now the powerhead I'm dealing with is a hopped up 300x...about 370 hp. So.....what mercury let fly from their factory may not be enough for 370 hp. Maybe. Thats another factor to consider. However Todd told me AND the owner that a mercury factory shaft cut and welded by Craig Collabella would be our saving solution. So thats what we are trying.

And chaz, I like your last post.

[25two.stroke]

509374
Right: early 3.0L optimax spline
Left: later 3.0L spline. How many people have pulled out the early shaft and found it stripped or worn? Bout 1/2" of splines!!! I've seen maybe 6 to 8 of those shorties in my life and they all look perfect. Some with 2000+ hrs on them

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

And if you look and test you’ll see the splines aren’t welded on hardened steel like the common ones,they are the same stainless as the shaft ,and easily cut with a file,wadaya know…

[oldschoolltv]

I forgot the old rule of thumb of 1/4 bolt needing 1/4 depth. Is it holding up now and have you dropped the lower to check spline wear?

[rprinzo]

The short answer to your question is: yes, according to mercury. Not according to theory, according to mercury.
Chaz says 13/16" on Mercury's 7/8" dia. shafts, I measure it at just over 3/4". That doesn't really matter though.

Also remember, merc didn't change the length of shafts when they stacked an extra gasket and a stainless pan under a powerhead for a lightweight cowl. So that takes away almost another 1/8" of spline engagement!

That is what mercury produced and it seemed to work on their 300x 280 260 s3000 etc. Now the powerhead I'm dealing with is a hopped up 300x...about 370 hp. So.....what mercury let fly from their factory may not be enough for 370 hp. Maybe. Thats another factor to consider. However Todd told me AND the owner that a mercury factory shaft cut and welded by Craig Collabella would be our saving solution. So thats what we are trying.

And chaz, I like your last post.

but merc says absolutly do not get grease on top of shaft when installing into powerhead cuz it prevents full engagement,so its not goin any deeper anyway. and if theres no room for grease to escape down splines, wouldnt that be pretty damn tight?

[25two.stroke]

Pulled it off.

Shaft is not rubbing anywhere in the can:

509416509417

Lower unit matches the bottom of the midsection perfectly. The lower unit bolt pattern is not offset in the casting the same way the powerhead bolt pattern is off to one side. Therefore it CANNOT be just a casting defect: the upper and lower bolt patterns in the midsection are misaligned. This is obvious without even using any tools. Hard to see on the port side cause its dark, but the lower looks correct.

509418509419509420
.
The hard mercury splines are not wearing through at all, but the wear pattern on them shows there is a problem. This is after one 67 mile run. 67 miles on these splines and you can see that the driven side of the spline is not being driven properly by the crank. The crank is not driving the driveshaft square onto the spline. The lower part of the spline is carrying the majority of the load and it tapers off to where halfway up the spline the crank is barely even making contact with the spline.

509421

[FUJIMO]

...the upper and lower bolt patterns in the midsection are misaligned. This is obvious without even using any tools...





...bingo. would not have gone any further with it...

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

Pulled it off.

Shaft is not rubbing anywhere in the can:

509416509417

Lower unit matches the bottom of the midsection perfectly. The lower unit bolt pattern is not offset in the casting the same way the powerhead bolt pattern is off to one side. Therefore it CANNOT be just a casting defect: the upper and lower bolt patterns in the midsection are misaligned. This is obvious without even using any tools. Hard to see on the port side cause its dark, but the lower looks correct.

509418509419509420
.
The hard mercury splines are not wearing through at all, but the wear pattern on them shows there is a problem. This is after one 67 mile run. 67 miles on these splines and you can see that the driven side of the spline is not being driven properly by the crank. The crank is not driving the driveshaft square onto the spline. The lower part of the spline is carrying the majority of the load and it tapers off to where halfway up the spline the crank is barely even making contact with the spline.

509421Wonder how the crank splines will feel about it down the road?

[25two.stroke]

SO....to change the direction of this thread.
Question for all you intelligent old people ;) :

How do I make right? What should I do?

[KIRCHNER]

EBAY sale or trade; 1 mis-aligned midsection make offer!

[CUDA]

epoxy redrillhttps://s.worldofsolitaire.com/victory/0/artistraman_lion.webp

[Chaz]

SO....to change the direction of this thread.
Question for all you intelligent old people ;) :

How do I make right? What should I do?


Welp , first thing I would do is buy a new pair of glasses ... :rolleyes:

Not sure it's repairable, but I usually buy the Mrs. a nice Halmark card, take her to dinner .. I guess you could always send a gift card to Flanigans ... inside the Halmark card .. :thumbsup:

Probably should send me one as well ... :p

Lets see .. how many times did I say .. grind the hole out where the drive shaft goes thru the adapter plate ... better make it a few gift cards .. :smiletest:

So we have grease on the splines ... good .

Grease smear at the lower seal / crank O-ring ... good .

Notice exhaust discolor on the shaft directly below the plane of the adapter base .

*** Oh-Oh .. rubbing right where the adapter hole rolls down to the bottom plane of the plate . ***

*** See circle + arrows ***

Your welcome ... ;)

https://i.imgur.com/k9rGyORh.jpg

[Chaz]

Wonder how the crank splines will feel about it down the road?

If he insists on running it with the shaft in "self clearancing" mode, I'd say he's gonna hafta put a new crank and drive shaft in .... or do this to the one thats in there now ... ;)

Chaz = thimkin, just another young guy payin the "dumb tax" ... :cool:

https://i.imgur.com/Z1BvDoAl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VQpibIql.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dxFxLIVl.jpg

I purposely haven't mentioned drive shafts. I do them three different ways ... Cut and respline like you taught me .. :smiletest: (I have a pair in my lowers , 256 hrs, 55 of them with 3462cc / 170 psi thumpers ,, no issues) :thumbsup:

Shafts I cut 5" down from the top .. centering pin , bevel welded in a spare lathe chuck .

And then the cut at the top , drilled , pressed , top and side welded makes it welded 100%

https://i.imgur.com/RQ5AhbUl.jpg

[FUJIMO]

...can't do that any better...perfect...https://i.imgur.com/RQ5AhbUl.jpg

[25two.stroke]

I still don't get what opening the hole in the adapter plate would do. It won't gain anything.

The dings in the picture that you circled were not from collision with the adapter plate while running, that was when I pulled the lower off, as it came down the studs it wobbled back and forth before it came to the ground: hence they are not in a circle around the shaft, they are at different elevations...
509445

[PanRonnie]

Can you remove the mid laying it upside down on a flat surface
Now have a bar over it measuring both sides bar to flat surface
If it is uneven it should show up

[25two.stroke]

Ok, it is evident to me now that I suck ass at taking pictures. That being said, the things that are clear to me are not necessarily clear to yall. My suspicions about the cause of this misalignment were confirmed by this last time taking the lower off and looking at everything. I am going to have to draw some pictures to explain the photographs cause I see where they are not 100% clear.

Chaz, the reason I don't grind the adapter plate hole out is because the driveshaft IS in the center of the hole with about 3/16" clearance all the way around: when the powerhead is installed. There is no way for it to get near the side of the adapter plate. The crank pulls it to the center of that hole. I will do some drawing.

Yes Ronnie I can do that measurement and will. However, due to the manufacturing process of these midsections I doubt that the top and bottom are out of plane. That would be a much harder mistake to make during manufacturing than the two bolt patterns being off. And because the bolt patterns are obviously off, it makes me doubt even more that the midsection is at an angle.

Regardless, the only piece in the equation that could cause this is the midsection/driveshaft housing. So somehow I gotta get a solution. I hope in the off season that I can send it back and Todd can just put his eyes and hands on it. I hope he agrees to that...

[Chaz]

The story gets more far fetched .. as it goes along ... sad

Dropping a lower unit ... will put longitudinal (up + down) scratch's in the shaft as it makes contact.

Rubbing while rotating .. you'll get a short circular pattern around the circumference .. like the one in your picture.

Beyond time to look at the three fingers pointing back at yourself ... :rolleyes:





Thanks FUGIPHOTO :thumbsup:

[rprinzo]

how do you fix it? you send it back and get one thats correct, period!

[25two.stroke]

What is not clear here??? I am sorry this is all so long-winded, but here are the facts:

1. The driveshaft is not centered in the adapter plate when the lower unit is bolted up tightly and the powerhead is off. Consequently it is not centered in the powerhead in a relaxed state.

2. The driveshaft is not colliding with anything on its way up to the powerhead, although its damn close to the hole in the adapter plate. I rolled up a piece of paper around the driveshaft and I can slide it all the way down to the water pump without it hanging up.

3. The driveshaft hole in the adapter plate, when bolted to the powerhead, is centered with the crankshaft.

4. The crankshaft is not off center in the powerhead.

5. The driveshaft hole in the adapter plate is centered in the adapter plate.

6. The driveshaft is not bent.

7. The splines stripped out in the original setup after very little use.

8. As I set the powerhead onto the midsection during the latest assembly (with the lower unit already installed) I watched the driveshaft meet up with the lower endcap off center, then as the powerhead went down I had a hard time lining the splines up until finally I saw the driveshaft get pulled back to about the center of the adapter plate and then it continued to slide down with a little bit of resistance. The powerhead pulled the driveshaft back to the center of the hole when it was installed. No collision between the driveshaft and anything else from the water pump up to the lower endcap.

These are the facts of this engine assembly and I am sorry if they were not clear from what I have posted so far. I know I have been long winded.
I have been looking at my fingers, all of them, all day while I work on boats on this fine labor day weekend.

[rprinzo]

Welp , first thing I would do is buy a new pair of glasses ... :rolleyes:

Not sure it's repairable, but I usually buy the Mrs. a nice Halmark card, take her to dinner .. I guess you could always send a gift card to Flanigans ... inside the Halmark card .. :thumbsup:

Probably should send me one as well ... :p

Lets see .. how many times did I say .. grind the hole out where the drive shaft goes thru the adapter plate ... better make it a few gift cards .. :smiletest:

So we have grease on the splines ... good .

Grease smear at the lower seal / crank O-ring ... good .

Notice exhaust discolor on the shaft directly below the plane of the adapter base .

*** Oh-Oh .. rubbing right where the adapter hole rolls down to the bottom plane of the plate . ***

*** See circle + arrows ***

Your welcome ... ;)

https://i.imgur.com/k9rGyORh.jpg

so how is this his fault? did he layout the ef'ed up hole pattern that honestly pretty much have no meat on one side and damn near thru the side. and who cares where he measures from, just look at the pics and its self expainitory that its off.why would there be any issue with swapping it for one thats right? would it be acceptable to you? 25 doesnt owe anybody an appology, he IS owed what he paid for, a corrctly built mid

[Chaz]

I've done nothing but try to help .. I figured I have made myself clear on the same thing over and over again. Here are the facts .. Give me a break .. the facts change at every post . :cool:

And now what , an interpreter ... ??? A chearleader .. ??? The voice of reason .. ??? Someone else to explain it to me ... :rolleyes:

If you guys know so much .. fix it .. yourself. Neither one of you listen .. :nonod:

If you can't do that .. then take it to someone who can .. or .. run stock $hiz, like anyone can buy .. ;)

https://i.imgur.com/D5oZy0Ql.jpg

[WaterZebra]

I've done nothing but try to help .. I figured I have made myself clear on the same thing over and over again. Here are the facts .. Give me a break .. the facts change at every post . :cool:

And now what , an interpreter ... ??? A chearleader .. ??? The voice of reason .. ??? Someone else to explain it to me ... :rolleyes:

If you guys know so much .. fix it .. yourself. Neither one of you listen .. :nonod:

If you can't do that .. then take it to someone who can .. or .. run stock $hiz, like anyone can buy .. ;)

https://i.imgur.com/D5oZy0Ql.jpg

Totally right on the pin!! We've beat this MAD EFI mid thing to death. Stop whining with a keyboard and fix the issue by throwing some money at it! MAD EFI probably makes a few hundred mids at best thru the years and have tried the best they could. Mercury, on the other hand, has made thousands and cannot afford ANY misaligned mids in production (warranty work). You can't fix your problem with a couple of tubes of JB Weld eithet!

[25two.stroke]

I've done nothing but try to help .. I figured I have made myself clear on the same thing over and over again. Here are the facts .. Give me a break .. the facts change at every post . :cool:

And now what , an interpreter ... ??? A chearleader .. ??? The voice of reason .. ??? Someone else to explain it to me ... :rolleyes:

If you guys know so much .. fix it .. yourself. Neither one of you listen .. :nonod:

If you can't do that .. then take it to someone who can .. or .. run stock $hiz, like anyone can buy .. ;)

https://i.imgur.com/D5oZy0Ql.jpg

Dude I'm tryna listen. And I'm glad you called me. When you called we were on the same page. You get back on the internet here and call me stupid. Are you 2 people or split persons. We both see this mid is garbage and you can't even deny that. I ask how to fix it and you say it's unfixable. Me too, I say its unfixable.

WaterZebra what do you want me to do? It seems you agree it's misaligned, so what should I do? Tell the owner to send it to a real machine shop or manufacturer and have it fixed? Fill the holes with JB weld and re drill them off the adapter plate by hand??? Really? Damn. Damn. Yall crazy.

How many of you out there can buy a $2000 piece, open the box, see its wrong, try it to give it the benefit of the doubt, measure it to give it the benefit of the doubt, fix it via the manufacturer's recommendations to give it the benefit of the doubt and then come to the conclusion that it needs more money to make it work and call the assembler the retard for not bolting it together correctly. Is that what this place is? Is this the good ol' boys club? If so then I'm out. Im way out. So far that I'll burn my boat and call you all loosers. Watch me.

[25two.stroke]

I'm in a bad place. I put this thing together on day one where knew something was wrong but then owner of all the parts wanted me to put it together anyways. So I did.

I came here when I had it all back together (still wrong in my opinion) but giving the product manufacturer the benefit of the doubt.

I asked what you all thought based on the information and pictures that I provided.

You all said it was screwed up

I asked why

You all said it was unclear based on the facts I showed

I gave more facts and proved my point

You all called me a liar for showing and saying facts

You told me to fix it myself.

Ok, well at that point you all admit that MadEFI midsnare garbage and you might as well cast your own. So if thats the case then that is where this thread ends. Greg come stop this here and now. Let no one else thrown their money away to MadEFI and stop me from posting bs on this forum.

[rgsauger]

So at the risk of being an ass, I think that everybody needs to slow down just a little bit on this one. 2.4, one of your last post where you listed at all the facts made things pretty clear to me in my opinion. It does sound like the geometry of this mid is simply “off“. If that is the case, then as everybody else has indicated, it can’t be fixed without a lot of time and money. And as everybody else has also indicated, it’s probably best to send it back to the manufacturer and hope that they can either make it right or replace it with one that is right. This whole thing sucks. It seems reasonable that when a part comes out of a box, it’s to print. We all know that’s not always the case but it still seems reasonable and this whole thing sucks. Is your customer now looking at you with slanted eyes thinking that you have done something wrong or does he understand that he is the one who pushed the bad situation? Either way, good luck with this crap.

Don’t burn your boat. Don’t leave here. In the end… We can’t take it with us when we go and it will all work itself out. Might take more time and money to work out but it will all work out.

[Chaz]

So now I have a personality disorder .. LOL

We have never been on the same page, as stated, I tried to help, show you where to look .. misquoting me , putting words in my mouth .. then bringing on a cheer leader .. to look further in the wrong direction ..

I said , I'm all in . never called you stupid , a liar or anything else of that nature.

And now you ask Greg to close the thread. If you understood forums, you would know, as the OP .. you have the ability to delete the whole thread at any time.

But no , it seems you want the last word .. then close the thread. This isn't Jr. high .. :rolleyes:

30 seconds with a grinder .. and you wouldn't have to spend hours and hours posting .. how little you know about .. "some trimming and fitting may be required" clause is in building non stock motors ... just sayin

[Chaz]

P.S.
If you remember .. I was asked to call you about selling/ shipping a 4-stroke / 150 HP lower unit I have here.

You had already found one at that point ... remember ..???

No , don't answer .. I'm good :thumbsup:

[rprinzo]

I've done nothing but try to help .. I figured I have made myself clear on the same thing over and over again. Here are the facts .. Give me a break .. the facts change at every post . :cool:

And now what , an interpreter ... ??? A chearleader .. ??? The voice of reason .. ??? Someone else to explain it to me ... :rolleyes:

If you guys know so much .. fix it .. yourself. Neither one of you listen .. :nonod:

If you can't do that .. then take it to someone who can .. or .. run stock $hiz, like anyone can buy .. ;)

https://i.imgur.com/D5oZy0Ql.jpg

there are no explainations in my post,only a couple questions which were not answered.

you have questions, an interpreter? no, a cheerleader? mabey, voice of reason? obviously, and again there are no explainations in my post

those are answers to your questions, so i will try again:
beings that you agree its not right, is it acceptable to you?
why would there be any problem swapping for one thats right?

[Chaz]

there are no explainations in my post,only a couple questions which were not answered.

you have questions, an interpreter? no, a cheerleader? mabey, voice of reason? obviously, and again there are no explainations in my post

I give up, what's a mabey ... ???


those are answers to your questions, so i will try again:
beings that you agree its not right, is it acceptable to you?
why would there be any problem swapping for one thats right?

So it's bad enough to have one of you putting words in my mouth .. now two of you. No thanks .. :nonod:

But, by all means .. show me where I said "the can is not right" I'll wait .. :rolleyes:

Is the can acceptable to me .. I don't know. I would have to look at it. From what you two say, think, then change your story .. I honestly don't know what to think.

As stated, I am on a "medical vacation". Even though I do not own MAD/EFI , nor am I their WTY department, I have a few of their cans here now. I have spoken to the owners .. who became worried after reading this thread and sent me their cans to be tested in my fixture / jig ... at no charge to them. (other than to pay return shipping)
Like you two .. they have no way of checking/testing for themselves.
Unlike you two .. I will not say one way or another until I see for myself.

And as bad as you two misquote me .. I am pretty apprehensive to now post what I find. That will be between myself, the owners and MAD/EFI.
However, I will stamp each one with a Letter/Number .. and send each a report on what I find. At that point they are free to do what they want with it.

Happy now .. ???

I have shown how to build your own (cheap) fixture. Corrected botched math. Shown troubled areas to look at. (with no response)
And then a glaring polished ring on the shaft where it's obviously been rubbing on the adapter, and how to fix it. (which also has also been ignored)
I've relegated myself to the fact, that there are just some people who are beyond help.
Not sure what else you expect from me at this point. And honestly, I'm tired of wasting my words .. talking to a brick wall. Now two brick walls .. actually.

I have wished you good luck .. :thumbsup:

Happy holiday to everyone ! :cheers:

[25two.stroke]

So at the risk of being an ass, I think that everybody needs to slow down just a little bit on this one. 2.4, one of your last post where you listed at all the facts made things pretty clear to me in my opinion. It does sound like the geometry of this mid is simply “off“. If that is the case, then as everybody else has indicated, it can’t be fixed without a lot of time and money. And as everybody else has also indicated, it’s probably best to send it back to the manufacturer and hope that they can either make it right or replace it with one that is right. This whole thing sucks. It seems reasonable that when a part comes out of a box, it’s to print. We all know that’s not always the case but it still seems reasonable and this whole thing sucks. Is your customer now looking at you with slanted eyes thinking that you have done something wrong or does he understand that he is the one who pushed the bad situation? Either way, good luck with this crap.

Don’t burn your boat. Don’t leave here. In the end… We can’t take it with us when we go and it will all work itself out. Might take more time and money to work out but it will all work out.

No hes not looking at me saying I did anything wrong. He knows I didn't he sees the same thing I see: a crooked midsection. I didn't buy it, he did. SO he knows he bought the piece of scrap metal. However, he doesn't want to throw away $2000 just like I don't wanna throw away $2000. I'm working through this whole holiday weekend hoping to make $2000 so my family can live a good life. We are all in the same place. We like playing with these EXPENNSIVE toys, but we still don't wanna get screwed. Now the owner of this thing is looking at me and me at him thinking how are we gonna fix this mess. And the reality is, there isn't really a way to fix it aside from welding all the holes up and re-drilling them in a CNC. And he doesn't wanna pay me to do that, or anyone else to do that. He already paid top dollar for the piece brand new. Thus far Todd has not agreed to take the mid back and look at it, so there is nothing more either of us can do.

I know I can delete this thread, I just hope that it can save someone from going through some bs down the road. Somehow old threads have a tendency of doing that magically. ;)

No, theres no polished ring on the driveshaft OR on my finger; I wish there was. I know what they look like, and none are in existence in this case. I tapped the driveshaft on the mid when I pulled it out. I did. Come watch me I will show you. A little tap tap makes the shaft happier. If anyone doesent believe me that I made that mark then I invite you to come watch me pull this, or any other unit off. Free shows on how to pull your lower are given multiple times a day here. I do it all the time. Rubbing and tapping carbon off are two very different things and cause very different indentations. For the duration we ran the shaft spun approximately two million revolutions. If it was in contact with anything during those 2 million revolutions it would have either broken something or created a visible and continuous indent. It did not. Period.

Quote: "not sure its repairable"
Repairable, fixable, not right etc. all the same thing.
509501

Not a real happy holiday for those who work through it with little pay. Nice weather though. Its 105 deg. F here and flat ass calm. I just wish the fish would bite so I can make a $

[rprinzo]

No hes not looking at me saying I did anything wrong. He knows I didn't he sees the same thing I see: a crooked midsection. I didn't buy it, he did. SO he knows he bought the piece of scrap metal. However, he doesn't want to throw away $2000 just like I don't wanna throw away $2000. I'm working through this whole holiday weekend hoping to make $2000 so my family can live a good life. We are all in the same place. We like playing with these EXPENNSIVE toys, but we still don't wanna get screwed. Now the owner of this thing is looking at me and me at him thinking how are we gonna fix this mess. And the reality is, there isn't really a way to fix it aside from welding all the holes up and re-drilling them in a CNC. And he doesn't wanna pay me to do that, or anyone else to do that. He already paid top dollar for the piece brand new. Thus far Todd has not agreed to take the mid back and look at it, so there is nothing more either of us can do.

I know I can delete this thread, I just hope that it can save someone from going through some bs down the road. Somehow old threads have a tendency of doing that magically. ;)

No, theres no polished ring on the driveshaft OR on my finger; I wish there was. I know what they look like, and none are in existence in this case. I tapped the driveshaft on the mid when I pulled it out. I did. Come watch me I will show you. A little tap tap makes the shaft happier. If anyone doesent believe me that I made that mark then I invite you to come watch me pull this, or any other unit off. Free shows on how to pull your lower are given multiple times a day here. I do it all the time. Rubbing and tapping carbon off are two very different things and cause very different indentations. For the duration we ran the shaft spun approximately two million revolutions. If it was in contact with anything during those 2 million revolutions it would have either broken something or created a visible and continuous indent. It did not. Period.

Quote: "not sure its repairable"
Repairable, fixable, not right etc. all the same thing.
509501

Not a real happy holiday for those who work through it with little pay. Nice weather though. Its 105 deg. F here and flat ass calm. I just wish the fish would bite so I can make a $

ill put more than that in your pocket if you get that motor built within the next 3 weeks

[amtree]

I have 2 of Chris' splined driveshafts. The 1st is a 2.5 sporty coupled to a V8 Omc. We built the mid "inhouse" and years later and after much abuse the splines are still perfect.
I had a second mid shortened by a vendor on a 300 merc XS and splines lasted about 2 hours. Upon removal we discovered that that the 2 critical surfaces (Ex. adapter and gearcase mating surface) which are supposed to be parallel, were not. So the mid was messed up. Getting it back together now with a different mid and I have total confidence that problem with not reoccur. Btw you don't need a dial indicator necessarily. I checked mine with vise grips and a piece of flat stock. Fasten flat stock to shaft with vise grips (close to deck of ex. adapter) and spin. You know pretty quickly if those two surfaces are the problem



Chris had me all confused for 20 min while he tried to explain to me how to do this. Its hard to explain, easy to do. Dial indicator goes on the driveshaft and points straight down towards the lower unit making contact with the steel plate. If the driveshaft is at angle the dial indictor will vary as you spin the driveshaft.

[Chaz]

We were shooting for Oct. 1st , but we had a little storm warning appear .. so yesterday was the day ..

The man in charge of the mold, mold work, and getting the machine work done was here most of the day. We have a couple projects in the works, so we covered that and then spent quite a bit of time going over the MAD/EFI cans that were sent to me to look at/ go over before they were put to use.
At first I said, I would post an unbiased report on what I found. Then as the story got more conflicting with what the facts actually were, I thought maybe the people who were worried enough to send they're cans to be checked out, were the only ones that needed to know. And yes they have been told.
For anyone considering buying one or a dozen units, here is what we found.

The starboard side of the mold is the master or draft side (I learned something). There is a machined flat that goes from the tapped 8mm hole to the dowel pin. They are all this way, and with 1000's of them out there and not one has broken in this area, it is safe, but he will see if it can have some material added there and still come out of the mold. Not necessary for anything other than cosmetic.
And as you can see, the port side has a milled out area as well going from 8mm hole to the first stud.

https://i.imgur.com/alJzN3El.jpg

Can #1 .. gasket in place, all holes line up .. these holes are a .010" (with paint) over 10mm as apposed to a 5/8 th's hole the factory uses. ( As a good friend would say, merc machinists can't hit the side of a barn with a red apple) ... sad, but true.

https://i.imgur.com/IQdwdOOl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/K15TfBul.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmWq-undcQY

Can #2 More of the same ...

https://i.imgur.com/6NlPZNnl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0Ahem2ml.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZbbpeoHl.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_3GYEueMPo

BTW ... in case anyone want's to be a stand-up guy ... slip their hand in the air and admit they were wrong ..

Todd's number is .. 239-293-4731

The good folks that spent money in a panic for shipping .. maybe you and the parrot want to split that .. :rolleyes:

Mr. J driving down from Georgia / Alabama .. well he was coming down anyway.

Me, my time .. I was glad to help .. :)

[25two.stroke]

It is nice to know you offer a midsection alignment verification service to members on here. That is good to know and I was not aware of it. I likely would have sent the mid I have straight to you for this service the moment I suspected an issue.

I am glad for everyone involved that all the mids you checked were aligned; it would be a shame if more of these expensive pieces were rendered defective. All I can say is I wish the midsection I got was aligned. If it was then this thread would not exist. Anyway, glad that there are no more crooked ones out there :) one out of thousands is still not a bad record.

[Chaz]

Well you kind of put me in the business of alignment verification ...

All I have are the tools I use when I build cut cans. And I offered to check or lend my shop / tools to anyone who had a can in question. This was before my shoulder surgery, so I'm going to say .. you knew when you had it apart, lets call it the second time.

Mr. J asked me if I would wait to let him open the boxes. Which i did .. he looked them over .. then said , OK please test them. The man rode a long way (yes we had other buis) because of what you said in this post.

I don't get you, I really don't and here's why :

You wish you knew I would check yours . (OK seems reasonable) However it insinuates that you , yourself have no way to check it.

Yet after all the B.S. you put many people thru, you still insist you have the only bad one in existence.

And correct me if I'm wrong .. but you followed Todd's instructions .. and now there is no longer a problem. But insist .. there is still a problem .. :rolleyes:

On second though .. no need to respond .. you have been a bundle of contradiction, finger pointing and lack of gratitude and responsibility for anything, from the start.

I'm done with this thread .. if anyone else .. has issue or question to what I have stated on what I found .. feel free to call
Mon .. Fri 9 - 4 EST and leave a message .. 772-408-7377

[Dave S]

Can you help Me with my alignment issue ? :cheers:.......:)