Vegas V bottom rebuild

[cameronj]

Hi everyone,

I will be starting my rebuild of the Vegas since losing the transom and will be doing it myself after already paying someone and having it fail. Started out this weekend by building a 24x12x8 enclosure to do the work in which i am setting up a furnace and thermostat in as well this evening now that that's complete. I will start removing and grinding the floor etc. today but wanted to order materials so that once complete i can start on the next step vs. waiting. After lot's of reading and scouring through build threads some multiple times i have put together a list and just want to run it by some of the experts here before ordering.

Transom- 2x 1.5" coosa(I want to raise the transom apprx. 2-3" as I noticed when coming off plane previously with the splashwell delete water would come over consistently with the 250XS on the back)
Stringers/knee's- 12# coosa 1/2"
Floor- 12# coosa 1/2" or 1/2" Nidacore
Core- balsa(Was thinking Divinycell HS-80 5/8" but from the reading you can hear the water more on the bottom, i am not sure how pronounced this is)

Resin- Was going to go with epoxy resin
Glass- 1708 biaxial
Floor- To cover the floor i was thinking about biting the bullet and doing carbon fiber overtop of the Coosa and not coating with gel coat, just leaving it clear so that you can see the carbon weaves like a hood on a car(anyone have experience with this?)

[LakeFever]

Epoxy gives you the best adhesion and the easiest to work with regarding cure times. Coosa is great I really like it. 1708 is the ticket you can probably do just about all your build with it. Some 1.5oz chop strand mat will come in handy though. Carbon fibre looks cool but it will be quite challenging to get it down pattern perfect especially over coosa which is a little porous. Good plan to do it yourself you should enjoy it, and end up with a very quality product. Post pics as you go

[cameronj]

Epoxy gives you the best adhesion and the easiest to work with regarding cure times. Coosa is great I really like it. 1708 is the ticket you can probably do just about all your build with it. Some 1.5oz chop strand mat will come in handy though. Carbon fibre looks cool but it will be quite challenging to get it down pattern perfect especially over coosa which is a little porous. Good plan to do it yourself you should enjoy it, and end up with a very quality product. Post pics as you go

After looking through you're build thread multiple times i will keep it very similar and opt to use the balsa for the core. After cutting some of the floor out there was a core, well pockets of air and mush where the core was at one point. I am surprised how mushy and disintegrated the core was in some areas there was nothing but literally dust. Here is the progress from yesterday evening found some coolers, nuts, washers, etc. under the floor. I had planned on not splitting the deck from the hull but it is a tight fit under the bow and am now rethinking this.

How do you grind the edges of the glass that encapsulated the core previously flush. I have a grinder with cutting wheels and the blue sandpaper style wheel but want to make sure i do not go through the hull anywhere and do it the easiest way the first time. I am not sure what to do about the pad area it appears a bunch of resin was poured in about 1/4-1/2" thick towards the back 4'
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[LakeFever]

We have a pile of sanders here. The three most frequently being used are a 1/2” x18” electric belt sander that is perfect for working into small corners and clearing out the pad area. I bought my hull stripped but the pad was still full of a lot of cabosil thickened resin which is when I bought that little sander has well earned it’s value. Plenty of them out there from low buck to 3M pro grade. The second most used tool is a 3M 5” random orbital sander with stickit pad ( not Velcro ) it’s an amazing sander commonly called a Da or dual action sander. Lightweight and strong and cuts fast. I wish there was some easy to source 24 grit disks for it but we have been mostly using diablo brand 40 and 80 grit with it. 40 for rough and 80 for finish prep.

I also use a high speed air sander like this but you have to be very careful with these things they over spin almost all disks beyond their rpm rating and you will grenade things if your not careful. It strips material very fast but it’s dangerous and easy to blow through the hull with it. That said, it works awesome. I use porter cable burgundy colored backing disks with 24 grit sanding disks on it and use the dial to throttle up/down when loaded unloaded type thing.

https://m.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200422057_200422057

[cameronj]

Thank you for all the help. I picked up the belt sander and orbital sander, luckily the pad just pulled right up in one piece i cut into two for ease as it was HEAVY with all that wet balsa and the core was soaked stuck to it or in crumbles in the pad area making that portion easier.

One thing i am having issues with is getting the single middle stringer out at the front under the bow that looks like it has been there since new. I feel this is where splitting the deck would of helped but now that i have most of under the bow done i do not want to at this point just for that stringer. If anyone has any tips or tricks please feel free to shoot them over.

Looking through your build thread LakeFever i am contemplating not going with epoxy and following what you did material/resin wise as it turned out very nice, what are your thoughts?

Here are some pics of the progress which unfortunately i did not have much time over the weekend but still made progress with the couple hours i had. Best news of the weekend though was that I traded the sunk 250XS towards a 300XS powerhead with the DBR tune about to be rebuilt, so will have a power upgrade as well this year once again.
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[XstreamVking]

If that front stringer is not rotted, just sandwich some glass and divinnycell to it and go on to bigger problems.

[LakeFever]

Moving right along your not messing around! Derakane has supply chain problems now, apparently out of stock until as late as March? Thankfully we had enough to finish the hull. If you can wait the stuff is amazing imo it bonds up so well and is super easy to lay and roll out

[cameronj]

If that front stringer is not rotted, just sandwich some glass and divinnycell to it and go on to bigger problems.

It does not appear rotted but is wet from when it sank still about a month ago.

[cameronj]

Moving right along your not messing around! Derakane has supply chain problems now, apparently out of stock until as late as March? Thankfully we had enough to finish the hull. If you can wait the stuff is amazing imo it bonds up so well and is super easy to lay and roll out

Supply chain issues seem to be the story of my life from work to personal at this point, building back better is not working out to well thus far ;)

Well epoxy it is than, i do want to have everything ready to start laying next weekend the 29th as the enclosure is just a canopy/tent style and the warmer it is the less gas i will have to use to heat it as i piped the furnace into my gas meter. Where did you purchase your coosa etc. from?

[LakeFever]

Check your PM's

[CUDA]

Vinyl ester resin is easer to use, with epoxy you have to be exact in your measurements, scrape bottom sides if it's not mixed in the right ratio It will never harden.

You talked about carbon fiber un coated again epoxy has no UV protection

Epoxy does not have styrene so your mat will not loosen up, styrene breaks down the glue that holds mat together.

[MattGreen]

Overall you're on the right track, a few hints:

- As CUDA said 1708 has mat attached to the biaxial fibers and it does not wet out well with epoxy. It can be done (lower viscosity laminating epoxies work better) but you really don't want to use this fabric with epoxy. Use 17/18ox biax without matt instead. The problem you may run into with either of these fabrics right now is supply - they are affected by the global mess. Composites Canada and Noah's boatbuilder supply are the best places to find this stuff in Canada. A roll of 6-8" "tape" (narrower version of any type of glass) can be super handy for tabbing stringers and bulkheads - can save a ton of time cutting it yourself from a 50" wide roll.

- As Lakefever said vinylesters are in short global supply. I'm not sure how bad epoxies are right now, but whichever resin system you choose make sure you get some extra because god knows when you might get more. Keep your epoxy inside because the resin can crystallize into a granular syrupy mess if it gets too cold. Consider getting a couple different hardeners so you can control cure speed depending upon temperature and size of laminate you're doing.

- Get a pair of really good shears to cut the glass.

- Consider making your knees thicker than 1/2" - for example doubling the knee core to 1" (or even more if you like).

- If you don't end up using balsa check really, really close in the Divinycell product literature to ensure you get the correct density for a hull core. The less dense versions are not appropriate for the slamming and compressive loads in a hull. 5/8" is rather thick for a boat of this size/type too.

- As Lakefever said a 1/2" narrow belt sander is super handy for grinding in tight spots - I could not live without mine. Makita makes a 1 1/8" one which is also handy.

- Coosa or Nidacore can make a great floor. Nidacore is surprisingly affordable (for example, cheaper than marine plywood in Canada). I'd rethink the carbonfiber idea on the floor. While yes it may look cool, it will be hot as hell to walk on, slippery (unless you sprinkle a non-skid additive on it), and yes either needs UV-optimized epoxy or supplemental UV protection (like a urethane clear) otherwise it tends to turn brittle and yellowish in a few years. It is also difficult to get the "perfect" carbon look with the hand layup you are intending to use. To get it visually perfect you really need to infuse it which is a whole other discussion....

Good luck, you'll learn a ton doing this, really unfortunate the "pro" you hired was such a goddamn hack.

Matt

[CUDA]

1708 is stiff any how I'm talking about installing mat as a base before the 1708, doing repairs mat can fill voids like nothing else, giving you really good adhesion but epoxy will not let the fibers flow get rid of air. They may make special type of mat for use with epoxy but I've never saw it? You have to be very fussy with epoxy mixing, a lot simpler to use Vinyl Ester best of both worlds, less BS and chance of screw ups, the first time I used Epoxy 30 years ago I was at the local fiberglass shop using his big table to make sheets of nidacore gel coat fiberglass, the first part we made would not harden because Mr fiberglass did not mix perfect ratios and or mix enough ...
You see regular vinyl ester resin will set over time especially with heat, I've had whole drums get hard a lot quicker than GP resin. Epoxy maybe if you cooked it in a oven at 200 some degrees.

[cameronj]

Hi everyone,

Thought i would give a quick update.

I've had a chance to get back to it so far i believe it has gone very well i ended up:

3 layers of 1708 in the pad, 2 layers where the core sits up just onto the first hump past where the floor goes and than 1 layer on the "wings" for a lack of better words. It worked out very well.

Than laid the core which is 5/8" balsa as they had no 1/2" and i decided not to use corecell with some of the gravel road sound comments. The 5/8 i ran as low and high as possible and than grinded the edges so that the floor will sit flush.

Now for the core i used core bond which IMO is an amazing product. I put one layer of 1708 over the core and than doubled up the core in the pad last night. When i put this second layer of core in the pad i did not use corebond but used CSM and resin. 100% i rolled all of the air out and it was completely transparent but after about 15 minutes it got very hot and some white spots formed. Today it feels ---- stiff but i thought i would post it here and see what everyone thinks. i was thinking to wait than sand opposed to doing 1708 while still slightly tacky like i did all the other lays.

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[LakeFever]

Lookin really good! That ghosting look is what your concerned about?Its hard to tell from those little pics I dont really see air bubbles?

edi* yes I agree core bond is awesome product

[cameronj]

Yes, all the fibreglass layers i did were completely translucent like in the 3rd pic. It is just the second layer of pad i put down in the wet CSM vs. corebond like the first. For perspective those ghosty/cloudy area were very hot to touch as it was curing. There are no air bubbles as it was completely transparent before it started curing and ive been taking extra time with the fin roller making sure there are no air bubble or raised areas.

It does feel extremely strong(the second layer of core) Those cloudy areas did cure faster than the non cloudy areas. I did mix up to separate batches of resin for the pad but mixed the same ratio of MEKP as the first cup.

[LakeFever]

I’m no expert on this process either but it looks plenty good enough to run far as I can see. I’m not sure why it would cloud during cure I’m sure someone here knows about that. Your glass work looks really good though. Nice and tight.

[cameronj]

Thank you very much i really appreciate it especially coming from you as your build is where i got a lot of inspiration eg. bringing the core up in the front higher, materials, resin etc.

The toughest part i feel is coming which is the transom and having no outer skin to work with. I will be changing the angle of it slightly pulling the bottom out approx. an inch so it does not have such a negative wedge/angle and raising it at least 2". Im def. doing 3" of coosa with 1 1/12" knees on the outsides as well as two 1/2" knees tying into the stringers up the pad.

[LakeFever]

Same here I read a ton of build threads and followed Tnels build from day one which really helped me out a lot seeing how/when/what it all happens. I’m curious to see how you do with the infamous transom as well. I have a strong feeling it will be a little better than the last one :eek:

[cameronj]

Made some more progress over the weekend as i have the transom started now and it is finally beginning to look like a boat. Also had a bit of disappointment as the 300XS powerhead deal i had fell through as the cost went up(I didn't pay up front as it was not rebuilt yet and still is not completed.). So ended up going back with a 2003 250XS rebuilt with a DBR ecu which should still be better than my previous one that had the 5850 rev limiter. On a good note the transom looks like a monster. It is raised approx. 2 inches and the bottom is pushed out an inch which i blended up to the hull with corebond(PITA to sand.) I cut the sides of the transom on an angle so that it overlaps the sides in hopes that if it fails again it does not rip off without tearing the whole back of the boat off;)... I fastened the two pieces of 1 1/2" coosa together with CSM

For layup how many layers should i do of 1708(especially concerned about the outside with no skin there.) I currently did one layer of 45 degree 1708 and will rotate between 45/90 degree matt as i purchased both. Also how far should i bring the fibreglass across the back sides of the hull to ensure it does not rip off(pic 4)

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[cameronj]

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[XstreamVking]

I like 1/4'' on the outside skin and about the same on the inside. Overlap and taper into the corners. I know this is a lot of glass, but I have never had a trans fail. This is how I did my V-King. I added more where the bolts for the engine come thru.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd200/snookdude87/Hydrostream/P1010191.jpg

[cameronj]

The stronger the better... I will go 1/4" minimum than. Approx. how many layers is 1/4"?

So for the overlap on the corners i was going to over lap 1 - 1 1/2" each layer, so in totality (i was estimating 8 layers) It would go onto the sides 8-12"

[XstreamVking]

About 6 layers of 1708 will make 1/4''

[David]

Are you going to put in knees?

[cameronj]

Yes two 1.5" knees on the outside and two 1/2" coming up from the pad (like most others do.) So 4 in total but was thinking about 1 X 1 1/2" going side to side as well between the two outer knees sitting on top of the 1/2" in the middle like the laser LTVs i believe are setup.

Xstream mentioned to build it how you intend to use it and on my lake there are lots of cruisers, wake board boats and with the two sand bars typically 100+ boats out on a weekend. I find myself catching a bit of air quite regularly and with the old transom ripping off i want to make sure it is super strong and that never happens to me again

[LakeFever]

Looks beefy! I laid my transom in overlapped in steps all the way out to the edge of the wings. Maybe a bit overkill but I was a newb and tend to the more is better philosophy with most things I build. I have 3/8 glass on both sides over the entire coosa core and as mentioned it tapers as it steps down out towards the wings. I believe I posted pics in my build thread if your curious

[XstreamVking]

I posted that pic to also show an alternative to the knees being in the center. As shown, mine are on the outer edges of the trans core. Also have platforms for battery and oil tank. Doing it in this manner allows much easier rigging of the fuel tank. The center knee/stringer design most use makes the fuel tank placement a bit more tricky. My 28 gal tank sits against the trans on the floor and is completely under the rear deck. Never seen another design like mine. But, it works well and is more compatible with a stern mounted tank.

[cameronj]

Thank you for all the responses i will be doing the oil tank and battery tray holder as well as it looks nice and clean.

I have started the knees and stringers just got the rear bit core bonded in and will continue towards the front today. It is so much more solid now than when i started i can walk inside the boat and there is no hull flex etc. feeling more confident by the day

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[LakeFever]

That’s looking really good!

[cameronj]

Made some more progress, i'm going to have to start finding more time and get 4 hours a day in on it work wise but here are some updates. The transom i have capped now with coosa it is approx. 3" taller than original and about a little ofer 3 5/8" thick so far. I have 6 layers on the inside and now 6 on the outside with the last two going up and over the cap, i will do two more layers on the transom outside up and over and two going out the sides further overlapping. This should be sufficient shouldn't it? Got all the stringers cut and am now glassing the very front ones in which i left for last as i hate getting under the bow...lol Will def. have a lot of sanding blending the sides of this transom cap down i will do the final coats of corebond tonight than start shaping the sides for what i was thinking two layers of 1708 to attach to the hull. between pulling out the bottom of the transom and raising it the amount of time i have consumed sanding corebond is unreal i feel like i could be done if i had of just left it factory.

For the inside underneath of the transom cap how many layers should i do and can i get away with CSM? fumes are going to kill me for sure.

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[XstreamVking]

For underneath the rear deck it would be ok to use a single layer of 1708. Several layers of matt won't give the strength of 1 lay of 1708.
I hope I understood the question of the trans cover question properly.
The trans should be bulletproof.

[cameronj]

For underneath the rear deck it would be ok to use a single layer of 1708. Several layers of matt won't give the strength of 1 lay of 1708.
I hope I understood the question of the trans cover question properly.
The trans should be bulletproof.

Thank you that is exactly what i meant. I ended up a little disappointed in the gel coat application i did as i took the time and went over all the 1708 on the core with CSM and sanded smooth yet the gel coat came out a bit lumpy looking i assumed it would lay down flat, good thing it is under the floor and def. a learning experience... i will sand down smooth though before putting the floor on

[VkingMike]

Coming along nicely, and quick too!

[tnelsmn]

Spend the money on a canister style respirator. That will cut down on the fumes a ton! A tip for extending the life of the canisters, put them in a zip loc bag when not in use. The whole half face style fits in a gallon freezer bag pretty easy.

[VkingMike]

Spend the money on a canister style respirator. That will cut down on the fumes a ton! A tip for extending the life of the canisters, put them in a zip loc bag when not in use. The whole half face style fits in a gallon freezer bag pretty easy.
I second this, it was a really good investment.