Hyd steering slop

[RedBusDriver]

Trying to tighten up the steering on my checkmate.
It has factory installed hyd steering,
Quicksilver helm pump cant read the PN
Merc Steering cylinder 8M0050097

The helm was low on fluid when I got the boat this spring, had about an inch of travel on steering cylinder when moving the motor by hand.
I picked up the bleed kit and ran a quart through it with no bubbles at the end, this drastically improved the steering but its still not right.
Over 30 mph feels like I have to spin the wheel at least 180 to get a response.
When on the lift I can turn the wheel all the way to lock and still turn the wheel with some effort.
I had a few drops on the floor under helm pump but degreased it and ran for 30 min today with no signs of leak.
If this wasn't a quick boat I wouldn't care, but I'm just not comfortable at WOT with some trim.
Compared to my pontoon with power hyd steering that wheel has the slightest amount of wiggle and is tight no slop at the motor.

Im leaning towards an issue in the helm pump.
What do you think?

Boat is a 2014 so maybe its time to just replace everything? What's the consensus on pump displacement?

Thanks

[David - WI]

Has air trapped in a line somewhere, would be my guess. Might have to tilt the trailer or even back down a boat ramp or ditch and bleed again? Some of them are a bitch depending on how they routed the lines.

[RedBusDriver]

Has air trapped in a line somewhere, would be my guess. Might have to tilt the trailer or even back down a boat ramp or ditch and bleed again? Some of them are a bitch depending on how they routed the lines.

I bought the bleeding kit that loops the bleed fittings at the cylinder. then you just spin the wheel and it circulates letting air out at the helm. I will bleed it again this week. It might be just me too. this is my first quick outboard, way different that my 290 PQ

[David - WI]

I would look at how your lines are run, if there's a "high spot" it will trap air... I think you would really have to spin the wheel pretty fast to get the air to go "downhill" any distance. I know it doesn't seem like it would be that bad... but I had a hard time getting the air out of mine. :nonod:

[RedBusDriver]

I would look at how your lines are run, if there's a "high spot" it will trap air... I think you would really have to spin the wheel pretty fast to get the air to go "downhill" any distance. I know it doesn't seem like it would be that bad... but I had a hard time getting the air out of mine. :nonod:

I will definitely do that. Last 2 pontoons I did hyd steering on were simple but lines went straight down and flat out to motor.
Id be super happy if its just air.

[4Speed]

I purchased the kit from Outboard Specialty Tools as I had a leaking end seal on my Euro hydraulic steering ram. I changed the seal and did the feed & Bleed and everything was fine... < than 1/4 inch travel. After a few passes it felt a little sloppy. I did the feed & bleed again and it took about another 1/3 - 1/2 cup of fluid. I always put a mark on the bottle so I can see how much I added. You have to turn the helm FAST 20-30 times in each direction (my hoses are about 18') and occasionally squeeze the bottle.

[RedBusDriver]

I purchased the kit from Outboard Specialty Tools as I had a leaking end seal on my Euro hydraulic steering ram. I changed the seal and did the feed & Bleed and everything was fine... < than 1/4 inch travel. After a few passes it felt a little sloppy. I did the feed & bleed again and it took about another 1/3 - 1/2 cup of fluid. I always put a mark on the bottle so I can see how much I added. You have to turn the helm FAST 20-30 times in each direction (my hoses are about 18') and occasionally squeeze the bottle.

I have that kit, but I was turning slow. I will do it fast thank you.

[Whaaaaat]

Bleed kit sounds like a good concept, if air can't get in thru the loosened bleed ports around the threads. If that insert a issue, I think it could be, couldn't the steering wheel be removed then hook a drill up to the shaft and really give it a spin?

Maybe another person at the back moving the motor back and forth while your spinning the wheel. There's plenty of places inside that cylinder for tiny bubbles to get trapped.

[4Speed]

Forgot to mention that I did move my motor left to right - port to starboard with the bleed ports open during the purge process.

[RedBusDriver]

I went down to the lake yesterday to bleed the system again. Didn't notice any improvement, but I did find that there is a leak at the helm pump.
I never noticed it before because it would drip on my pants, it was warm enough yesterday that i was in shorts and felt the drops.
Seems to leak under heavy load, 50mph and turning.
Waiting to hear back from my dealer to see what they want to do about it.

[LakeFever]

I’d try some Lucas Transfix in there. It doesn’t take much maybe an ounce or two. Then bleed it like this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pix1t7ROQ6U

[RedBusDriver]

I’d try some Lucas Transfix in there. It doesn’t take much maybe an ounce or two. Then bleed it like this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pix1t7ROQ6U


If I dont get the answer I want from dealer, I will end up buying the SeaStar Pro Steering kit hk7514a-3
This is one of those situations for me where it has to be 100% right or im not comfortable.
If it was a 40hp pontoon Id have no problem trying some leak fix stuff.

[LakeFever]

All hydraulics are pistons and rubber seals. All Lucas does is soften up the rubber to help the seals do their job at a price of slightly thicker viscosity which I seriously doubt would cause any issues in the minor amounts I suggested. That said if funds are there new is always better

[XstreamVking]

Where's it leaking from? A fitting under the dash, or from the helm shaft seal?

[Soikku]

For installation I used Loctite 542 pipe glue no leaks

[RedBusDriver]

Where's it leaking from? A fitting under the dash, or from the helm shaft seal?

Im not 100% but I think it may be one of the fittings or it could be the end of the hose.
After work today I will go down there again and clean it and try to find the leak, I think I have the right orings at home.
If I remember correctly the Quicksilver/Merc system uses ORFS fittings. (oring face seals)
This is one of those situations where even if its right my brain still wont accept it.


486255486256486257

[RedBusDriver]

For installation I used Loctite 542 pipe glue no leaks

Ill grab some of that today.

[Whaaaaat]

Those plastic plugs don't seem right? I don't use seastar so not familiar with there setup, but I wouldn't have plastic port plugs in anything under pressure. That needs metal.

[RedBusDriver]

Those plastic plugs don't seem right? I don't use seastar so not familiar with there setup, but I wouldn't have plastic port plugs in anything under pressure. That needs metal.

I think those are just to cover holes, My Tritoon with the Verado Power Steering has them too.

[XstreamVking]

You can see fluid in the 1st pic on the fitting with the white mark, right at the connection to the hose.

[Soikku]

provides leakage hose and connector connection. plastic connectors last yes. glue to each joint. degreasing brake cleaner

[Joe90]

This is just a FYI for SeaStar systems, I had similar issues with my Sea Star, had to put the boat severe nose down and tech guy said turn the wheel to the stops and crank on the wheel farther for a turn, and pop the reliefs. Makes a nasty noise. got more air out. Not sure if that will apply to you but might help SeaStar owners out.

[RedBusDriver]

I found my spare ORFS seals, from 2 boats ago. I will go down to the boat tomorrow replace seals on hoses at helm and do a thorough bleed and will try to over power the relief valves.
I wonder if the previous owner ran the helm low on fluid and caused some wear in it. There is no way this steering should be such an issue.
Ive done 2 scratch installs and both have turned out amazing.

Thanks for the tips everyone.

[tnelsmn]

This is just a FYI for SeaStar systems, I had similar issues with my Sea Star, had to put the boat severe nose down and tech guy said turn the wheel to the stops and crank on the wheel farther for a turn, and pop the reliefs. Makes a nasty noise. got more air out. Not sure if that will apply to you but might help SeaStar owners out.

+1 for this. Been fighting mine for a week. Forced past the stops for one full turn, heard the nasty noises, more air came up. But it's solid now.

[Joe90]

Glad that worked for you!

[XstreamVking]

Sometimes removing the cylinder from the engine allows full stroke of the cylinder it couldn't get when attached. Depends on the application. I bleed mine before install, since you can raise the cyl up high and get full stroke. jm2cts

[RedBusDriver]

Looks like the fluid is coming from top port with plastic plug. Im thinking a relief valve is weak/worn causing my issues.
Dealer is getting me a new helm pump then I will try everything suggested to bleed this out. I think the helm pump has been my issue the whole time.

[Whaaaaat]

Plastic plugs in the garbage can. Then just have your dealer hook it to there power bleeder. Power bleeder takes 10 minutes.

[Joe90]

Just guessing but is that a helm pump for dual helms??

[Joe90]

Just FYI on steering pressures, when my boat wouldn't like to turn right the dealer was calling me an idiot. Ok, Gauges it is, over 1500 psi at the steering cylinder to turn the boat right and only 5-600 to turn left. Now on shore I am putting my 75 lb fish scale on the steering wheel and put the engine full lock right and tried to pull 1500psi. The scale wasn't big enough. Think my wife can pull 80lbs to turn the boat??

[SkywayGT]

You're leaking from that top metal fitting. you can see oil in the threads, on both sides of the fitting. There is your leak, its not the plastic plugs.

J


Im not 100% but I think it may be one of the fittings or it could be the end of the hose.
After work today I will go down there again and clean it and try to find the leak, I think I have the right orings at home.
If I remember correctly the Quicksilver/Merc system uses ORFS fittings. (oring face seals)
This is one of those situations where even if its right my brain still wont accept it.


486255486256486257

[RedBusDriver]

You're leaking from that top metal fitting. you can see oil in the threads, on both sides of the fitting. There is your leak, its not the plastic plugs.

J

I appreciate the input. I cleaned all oil then physically layed underneath the helm and watched the leak. The pic is 90 degrees off. with the angle of the helm fluid was leaking from yellow plug and tracking down the back of helm pump then out onto the 90 degree hose fittings.

I will update when new pump is in

[RedBusDriver]

So I pulled helm and resealed everything. Those yellow plastic plugs still have a drip.
With the plug out I can see what I assume is some sort of a bypass or check valve maybe for a dual station/helm setup.
When turning the wheel normally with the plug out no fluid is seen but as soon as I hit the extent of the steering and give a bit more turn pressure it will spit fluid out.
Obviously turning the wheel with the boat on the lift is minimal pressure but at speed and turning im sure there is much more pressure on this valve and that is causing it to leak.
I dont think going from a plastic to a metal plug is the correct solution, I think whatever that valve is has failed.
Can anyone confirm what those 2 ports are with the plugs.

[David - WI]

I know it's not what you have, but on the Hynautic helms there is a third "bypass" hose that goes back to the hydraulic reservoir... if you turn past the range of the cylinder the excess pressure "blows off" and the fluid goes back to the reservoir.

486570

I don't know how many different "SeaStar/Hynautic" helms are set up to be used on the Hynautic-style system though.

[RedBusDriver]

This system appears to be a teleflex with quicksilver tags on it.
Whats weird is its a 3 bolt flange instead of the common 4.
Im heading back to the dealer today and discuss this, hoping to talk to a tech.

[XstreamVking]

Plastics can have a very small crack that's not visible under normal inspection. If it's leaking after being sealed it must be cracked.

[RedBusDriver]

agreed, but under full load turning id bet there is 500 to 750 psi at the helm/lines, no way plastic would hold that back.

I think Im just going to ask them to split a sea star pro system with me.

[David - WI]

486571486572

Just random internet photos, but I haven't seen any with plastic plugs.

[RedBusDriver]

Just for the hell of it, Ill pull that yellow plug and go get a few brass ones if I can find one to match.
These yellow plugs have an o ring at the base of the head, I dont think they were NPT but im hoping.

Ill throw 2 brass ones in there and see what happens.

[Whaaaaat]

I've only ever seen those plugs used as shipping plugs, to be replaced with metal or corresponding hose upon install.

If there is a machined boss under the lip of the plug to accept the o ring then there most likely straight thread pipe, ORB, o ring boss. which would be strange to have when the others are clearly tapered pipe. I wouldn't expect both types on the same helm.

If no boss then standard pipe plugs will work. They may even work in the straight thread better than the plastic, but won't be 100% correct.

[RedBusDriver]

I've only ever seen those plugs used as shipping plugs, to be replaced with metal or corresponding hose upon install.

If there is a machined boss under the lip of the plug to accept the o ring then there most likely straight thread pipe, ORB, o ring boss. which would be strange to have when the others are clearly tapered pipe. I wouldn't expect both types on the same helm.

If no boss then standard pipe plugs will work. They may even work in the straight thread better than the plastic, but won't be 100% correct.

They were 1/4" pipe thread. Got them in but it's gusty cold and choppy out there. I'll run it this weekend

[Joe90]

They were 1/4" pipe thread. Got them in but it's gusty cold and choppy out there. I'll run it this weekend

No more leaks?

[RedBusDriver]

Still has a few drips,
Im waiting for the dealer to dig into the parts for SilverSteer 2.0 system.
I think thats the route we are going.

[RedBusDriver]

Dealer offered to buy the boat back so I walked away.