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View Full Version : Hydrostream vegas core vs. no core



cameronj
01-13-2021, 12:30 PM
Hi everyone,

I have a 1991 hydrostream vegas that i am restoring. The work on the core, floor and transom will be done at a boat manufacturer up here in Ontario, the only thing is i have a couple different options as to what way i would like it done. I originally wanted to have them do a balsa core and 3" transom but they are recommending two different options as well and all for a similar price.

Option 1- thicker, stronger fiberglass layup and stringers rather than a "core" with the 3" transom

Option 2- composite core with the 3" transom

Option 3- balsa

I read somewhere of another member here on a thread having a vegas with a stringer set up and no core, hopefully he can chime in. I am essentially looking for it not to be a race or top speed boat as i am out on the water approx. 25-35 hours per week through the boating season and where i boat is multiple lakes attached which does get choppy on weekends and there is a lot of traffic from larger boats throughout the summer as the lakes are on the trent severn. I am hoping to be in the mid to high 80 range if possible. I do have a rebuilt 2011 mercury 250 proXS that will be on the boat which is why i am opting for a 3" transom. I also read another post where they rebuilt their stream using composites and love it except it is very loud as you can hear the impact of waves.

I am leaning towards option 1 but am unsure if there will be a substantial increase in weight. What would all of you experts recommend and is my speed goal realistic with a 28 or 30p drag 4 or promax prop?

Thanks,

LakeFever
01-13-2021, 12:53 PM
Can you link the thread about the loud composites? First Ive heard of it.

As for the core vs non I too have pondered glassing only. My old boat had no core and it took on ZERO water and I mean ZERO. I left it in the drink for months on end and never took a drop. Glass was approx 1/4" thick and I have no idea how it was laid up I bought it that way.

Capt.Insane-o
01-13-2021, 01:10 PM
Option 2

transomstand
01-13-2021, 05:08 PM
Can you link the thread about the loud composites? First Ive heard of it.


Hydrostreams were always noticeably louder than most other boats. This was most apparent when driving in rippled water. Kinda like driving a car down a pebble driveway. As the boats turned to mush they became much quieter. Several people have commented over the years how much louder the hull got after a recore.

LakeFever
01-13-2021, 05:59 PM
Right I see. I thought the comment was about composite recores being louder than balsa etc. That’s what had me scratching my head

DangerNewb
01-13-2021, 06:31 PM
I'd agree that a composite core can be louder than a balsa core. My brother has had a yellowfin, invincible and contender center consoles. The yellowfin was the only one that had balsa. It seems to have a sound deadening effect compared to the others. Seemed to ride softer than the others even though it was the smallest of the 3. Know other factors come into play but my impression was the wood core was more quiet. I believe yellowfin is still building with wood cores.

RBT
01-15-2021, 09:05 PM
You need a core, every time you double the thickness of the bottom you stiffen it by it’s cube. Also consider that in order to attain the same stiffness the amount of mass you would have to add would destroy any hopes of performance.
Balsa done properly is better than composite.

LakeFever
01-16-2021, 06:52 AM
Here we go, why is balsa better than composite?

BUZZIN' DOZEN
01-16-2021, 11:05 AM
Here we go, why is balsa better than composite?

480680

FMP
01-16-2021, 11:15 AM
Why certain builders never use anything but wood in transoms and stringers for I/O engine mounts

LakeFever
01-16-2021, 11:22 AM
Strength? Thats the only balsa advantage? From what Ive read the negatives are lack of flex leading to cracks which streams are always cracked, i havent seen one original cored or not that wasn't cracked. The composite core materials have give to make them less prone to cracking and more forgiving means more durable. Plus the composites are not prone to water softening like balsa is. From what I've seen the major damage risks are the hull delaminating usually due to cracks and rotted cores. Or the hulls bust in half usually where too stiff meets too flexible.

This is why i was leaning towards the composite core. Id give up some strength and gain in three other areas. Plus new mega pricey boats are all composite core so how bad can it be? Just my thinking and if Im off I like to be schooled back on track


Plus boat builders dont want to sell boats that last 100 years, they want you to buy another in five or ten years. Even Howard himself said that was the intent with the streams was cheap throw away fun. Im sure if he was planning on building hulls to last 50+ years he would have taken a different tack

FMP
01-16-2021, 11:26 AM
Typically lack of support range and acceleration of deflection leads to cracking.

If you follow from the source of the shock waves on the hull with meters to map the spread and rebounding and convergence with fresh waves you be able to see the effects. Layup and backing go hand in hand. 50 year old light layups can't really be compared to the new hand in hand of layup and materials backing.
That and everyone seems to be going far faster than the materials were built to handle. 60 mph in a 6inch chop is nothing to 90 mph in a lesser chop.
All in all the streams are amazing that they don't splinter to bits.jmo

David
01-16-2021, 06:53 PM
Skaters are balsa. My brothers Charger is 32 years old, balsa, and tired. Would 30 years be enough life for you? My SS2000 is composite and should last 30 years. A cored boat is stiffer and lighter, RBT is right about thickness cubed. Core for sure, balsa or composite maybe depending what your guy is more comfortable with.

Who is the builder? There are not many guys making boats in Ontario.
Where on the Trent? We are on Cooch

FMP
01-16-2021, 07:02 PM
Option 4 , more layup, stringers and balsa core with 3" birch ply transom:D

XstreamVking
01-16-2021, 08:04 PM
OP's not even responding. I guess he figured it out for himself.

RBT
01-16-2021, 08:14 PM
Typically lack of support range and acceleration of deflection leads to cracking.

If you follow from the source of the shock waves on the hull with meters to map the spread and rebounding and convergence with fresh waves you be able to see the effects. Layup and backing go hand in hand. 50 year old light layups can't really be compared to the new hand in hand of layup and materials backing.
That and everyone seems to be going far faster than the materials were built to handle. 60 mph in a 6inch chop is nothing to 90 mph in a lesser chop.
All in all the streams are amazing that they don't splinter to bits.jmo

yep, static psi on the bottom is velocity squared times .0132, add waves to the equation it really is amazing

LakeFever
01-17-2021, 10:52 AM
So if a composite core is used, it would be prudent to beef up the hull with some ribs. Im still not for sure on the composite core but my main goal with this Viking I have is for it to last as long as possible while still being able to take some waves without fear if caught out in the rough. That and the fact that I keep seeing more and more wake board boats sending off those perfectly clear sharp edge waves I cant always see that are huge and I hit and well... I want to at least have the boat im in not be the danger there. Thanks OP, perfectly timed thread we need more boat talk round these parts

MattGreen
01-17-2021, 11:35 AM
Im still not for sure on the composite core but my main goal with this Viking I have is for it to last as long as possible while still being able to take some waves without fear if caught out in the rough. That and the fact that I keep seeing more and more wake board boats sending off those perfectly clear sharp edge waves I cant always see that are huge and I hit and well... I want to at least have the boat im in not be the danger there. Thanks OP, perfectly timed thread we need more boat talk round these parts

You and the OP are on the right track here looking at the best way to ensure these older boats are strong and safe in modern applications. Think about the risk factors here (Hydrostreams especially, but this also applies to other boats of similar age and construction):

- 30-40+ year old boat - possible/probable soft core ? Early delamination ? Soft/rotten transom and stringers ? Some tabbing starting to pull off ?
- Questionable quality control on the original layup (Streams are infamous for this)
- Modern outboards: more power and more torque, more weight
- Overall faster speeds usually
- In many cases rougher water: wakeboard boats as you mentioned (I have exactly the same issue around here - they are everywhere)

Add those together and you definitely need to put some thought into the restoration. There's multiple good build threads on here and some very knowledgeable people to provide assistance (including RBT above - listen to what he is saying about the balsa - good stuff if installed and later rigged correctly). You can have an excellent boat with either a balsa or composite core. Keep in mind the core material selection is only a piece of the puzzle. The resin you choose, the way the new core is bonded to the hull, the way the hull is supported during the re-core, and the inner skin layup are all just as important considerations as the material itself.

Matt

LakeFever
01-17-2021, 01:19 PM
Indeed to all that. I’ve read every resto thread I can find here and everywhere else. Tnels thread to follow is my favorite though he posted so much helpful content and started green as I am and ended up pro level I was so impressed by that resto journey. Im a ways from starting yet but the hull is completely stripped bare, cap removed, transom gone. It’s a bare shell ready when I am. I had a deal struck twice now to build it but both times life got in the way and the build deal stalled so until I buy product I’m trying to learn more. I see the tidbits dropped here and there and for racing? Balsa for sure. For consumer/value/long haul the composites are carrying my focus so far. It’s really down to gel coat concerns where I’m flip flopping. I like gel and if I use epoxy gel becomes challenging. One resto guy I met with is pushing me hard to use paint. He claims it’s better on all fronts aside from long term water exposure but I don’t plan on leaving this one wet for longer than a day or three at a time and even then boat house at night so I might do paint which I can control the outcome a lot tighter as I have paint experience. Never sprayed gel so there’s that

tnelsmn
01-17-2021, 09:04 PM
Thank you for the kind words, Lake!

I'll add my .02, from a complete amateur perspective. Discussions like these are what makes this place so great and are a good way to learn for us newbies.

I had the same questions when starting my build. I chose balsa for the following reasons;
- These things were built like absolute horse s**t from the factory. Imagine what got looked over pushing out 5 boats a day. With that said, they still lasted 15-20 years.
- Balsa is by far the cheapest core material to buy. If you miss a measurement and cut something wrong, you're only out $30 for a 2x4' sheet.
- Balsa is also very easy to work with. I suppose the foam would be too, but I can't speak from experience.
- According to the data available online, it is the strongest in every measurement.
- Seal the living daylights out of it and moisture can't get to it for it to rot. I made sure there was plenty of resin in my layups over the core. Then covered everything under the floor with a layer of gelcoat on top of that. From the factory many boats had dry layups over the core. Or even exposed core in some spots.

I feel like I'm rambling at this point so I'll stop there. Keep in mind, I'm no expert, I've rebuilt one boat. Just sharing my thoughts.

LakeFever
01-18-2021, 06:38 AM
I can’t argue with any of that and no one could say a well built balsa core resto is anything less than awesome. I suppose the only way we will ever know which route is best is for some of us to use composite and report back in 30-50 years or so :D

ive always been a material junky, always looking for the best products I can get. My thinking is if I’m gonna spend the time to build something I don’t want to have product or material failures somewhere down the line because I should have used something better. That said I don’t think you can go wrong if you build it right the boat will be great regardless of process. I have a complete balsa core already that came with the hull. I bought the package from a guy who stripped all the core and whatnot out and got as far as dry fitting the core and he stopped there. It’s hard to find the time to see a project like this through which is why I have yet to start. I want to ensure I can see it through

cameronj
01-24-2021, 12:13 PM
Skaters are balsa. My brothers Charger is 32 years old, balsa, and tired. Would 30 years be enough life for you? My SS2000 is composite and should last 30 years. A cored boat is stiffer and lighter, RBT is right about thickness cubed. Core for sure, balsa or composite maybe depending what your guy is more comfortable with.

Who is the builder? There are not many guys making boats in Ontario.
Where on the Trent? We are on Cooch

Hi everyone,

Thank you for all the replies, sorry for the late response i've been bogged down with year end financials and presentations.

The builder is tempest boats, they make mostly bowriders but the owners son does recore hydrostreams at the factory as well from time to time. I tried for 3 months to get ahold of John Spaeth or his son to no avail and i want to be rolling this year once the season starts so this was the second best option. I have confidence in them as they have done them before and previous customer's were very happy as well as my grandfather had a tempest boat from the 70's that was sold 5 years ago in great shape still and by the cottage here there are a few of them plus one that has sat for 5 years uncovered in the water all summer every summer overpowered with no cracks on the transom which the floor is still solid on as i have talked to the guy and been in it when he was having some problems with his 150. I am on pigeon lake by Omemee.

I have decided to go composite as that is what the manufacturer works with they have not used balsa for a considerable amount of time, while there i will discuss with him a little thicker layup as well as stringers like FMP mentioned for the exact reason a few mentioned here which is between the offshore boats, cruisers and wake board boats it gets very wavy out there as on weekends there are hundreds of boats out just at the sandbars let alone those cruising around.



I now have a choice again on power as the proXS i bought from the builder is not quite what im looking for as it has the fleetmaster lower and was a 225 proXS originally with a 250 powerhead but the 250 ECU was no good and has a 225 ECU still. It will cost a bit more to upgrade to one of the others but i feel will be worth it. My options are:

1-cheapest-2002 300 promax with 0 hours just rebuilt with a balanced rotating assembly, WSM pistons and the ports "cleaned up" rev-limiter at 6500

2-Most powerful-2008 Yamaha 300 with 0 hours rebuilt for himself with carbon reeds, WSM platinum pistons, injectors flushed/flowed, new filters, updated series 2 oil pump, factory coned VZ gearcase, all ports etc had the rough castings cleaned up and a hydrotech phase 2 kit. Not sure if this is to heavy for the stream though!

3-2005 mercury gold block 250XS with the 6300 rev limiter- This will come with a gen 2 torquemaster with that splash guard and can be coned or unconed and is being rebuilt now and is getting a sleeve on cylinder 2, 6 new STD size WSM pistons rings, bearings etc. (THIS IS THE ONE I AM THINKING WILL COMPLIMENT THE STREAM THE MOST since it is a performance motor while having some decent gas mileage when cruising. It also seems like most ppl that have them want to rebuild them until they blow so bad they can't be and it will have the updated torguemaster the lower HP newer ones have)

4-2013 250 Pro XS that has a bad cylinder 6 and will either be rebuilt with a sleeve or oversized piston not sure as it has not been opened yet but will have a gen 2 torquemaster as well.

Thanks again for all the replies i really appreciate all the help. I will upload pictures as different stages are completed and post numbers once complete and out tearin' up some water.

David
01-25-2021, 09:27 AM
I have reconsidered. Put me down for balsa. I trust the composite in my SS2000, but apparently it's quite easy to get into trouble with the synthetics, poor bonding to the glass, crumbling, heat aging, water: Structural Issues : Core Materials (yachtsurvey.com) (https://www.yachtsurvey.com/core_materials.htm)


2002 Promax 300, about 480 lb, will burn more gas than I can imagine. Simplest motor which should help reliability. My 225 Promax liked it's fuel
2008 Yamaha 300 HPDI, 543 lb, 539 lb if it's a VMax. Direct injected, should be OK on fuel
The 250XSs should be about 505 lb. If it were me, I'd want the injectors cleaned and a new compressor. 250 HP on a Vegas will go into the 90's so the torquemaster will need a cone.

All your motor options are rebuilt. Go with the best reputation builder?

LakeFever
01-25-2021, 01:17 PM
The light bulb just clicked. Shrinkage!!!!

in a previous life I had a body shop and we painted a lot of cars and bikes and whatnot when you buy materials the costs are directly related to longevity specifically tied to shrinking and sun resistance. I learned that any non pro grade enamels or lacquers are very prone to shrinking which over time causes the paint to lose grip to the substrate which was typically primer which was usually lacquer based. Once I got onto the epoxy urethane primers and clear coats shrink related paint failures disappeared. After reading that article above I’m thinking shrinking inside the layup is a big consideration to have during a restoration. I’m also thinking I don’t know much at all about the composite foam cores and whatnot so for my build I’m starting to lean towards balsa and epoxy. Quality epoxy does not shrink much if at all. I will look further into this


great thread

cameronj
02-23-2021, 03:36 PM
I dropped off the boat and got to see the place i was not aware they made the charger boats and have and are making the charger boats again, was looking at a nice Charger STV being done.