Coating piston tops with a ceramic coating

[keefallan]

I am getting ready to assemble my powerhead(115 crossflow). I am seriously thinking about spraying cerakote on the tops of the pistons and even the heads. I am unsure of the heads though. I am sure the piston tops will help. But I am afraid the head coating will make detonation a greater reality. I have searched numerous engine builder sites for more information. I am asking if anyone coated their combustion areas in their heads.......and did it help or hurt against detonation?

[FMP]

Know of a build that was done twice, both times coated crowns, possibility chambers too I'd have to check again. Melted them good both times, didn't listen to us telling him to use Wisecos.
Thought you weren't racing this build.

[keefallan]

I am not. I was just wanting to add protection to the build. I wasn't racing this last one either. But I was wide open when I threw a ring. And I was curious about the chamber being coated and did it help or hurt? I can see it doing both. But if someone had already done it.....then I would know for sure. I love to make things better.....sometimes overthinking it. I have pro v pistons with coated skirts. I f they weren't coated, you can be sure I would be bringing that up too.

[keefallan]

I do plan on using my hot heads again. But I know one will need replacing. I like the 20-25 boost in compression points. I don't wanna go back to 120 again. Hence my desire to protect my powerhead.

[FMP]

If you can maintain optimum temp in the chamber without excess heat sink in the head and piston and lose and use the heat out in the exhaust then it should be a positive.

[Chaz]

K Allen ,
I was going to wait until I got my parts back from the cryogenics guy to either post in the "merc rods" thread .. or just start a thread on the build of these two powerheads. I just really hate bogus info .. you know , i had a friend who .. Oh wait .. :nonod:

Here it is straight ... I have been using header coatings for aprox 25 years.

I like yourself was leery of using any internal type coatings . At first , I tried just doing a set of skirts using Tech Line Coatings .. That was aprox 10 years ago .

https://techlinecoatings.com/

Sometime along the way , the company was bought out by a group of employee's . I was fortunate to get in touch with Jason at the Mfg. plant. He is well in tune with his product and one of the most savvy coating's people on the planet as far as I'm concerned .. ( right up there with Uncle Bud ) :) Actually it was Bud , who told me I didn't know what I was missing .. and turned me onto Tech Line .. :thumbsup:

Skirts , yes ... underside and pin bores too .. NO MORE : scuffed skirts , oil coking under the crown or seized pins .

DFL-1 (dry film lube)

https://i.imgur.com/8zTBTQ9l.jpg

Piston tops , I was concerned .. that it might flake off , reflect to much heat away and not let the piston come up to temp and size . Or if the heads were done , that it would stop heat from getting to the water jacket and / or effect the reading by the cyl head temp sensor.

But first .. Wiseco's were mentioned , they have a hard anodized coating from the factory , that can be prepped and coated with a heat barrier as well .. or left alone , at least it's something ...

https://i.imgur.com/WANZrSml.jpg

CBC-1

I took the plunge and did a set of tops. Just like any other "paint job" prep is everything. Alum oxide grit sprayed at 35 psi in the blast cabinet .. keep me greasy paws (rubber gloves) off the parts , slightly warm the parts in an oven to 85 - 90 degrees and spray a light even coat . When it dries , oven bake at 300* for an hour. i did an extra piston , smacked it with a hammer a few times .. no come off . ;)
I've done about a half a dozen motors so far with the crown coating , no adverse effects .. !

https://i.imgur.com/Dzii56Ol.jpg

Jason explained to me that the CBC-1 was a natural aluminum color .. and that some have been known to use it in class's where it is not legal .. (racers cheatin, who'd a thunk it )

I wanted to start using the gold color barrier like the T/F cars use , on both the piston tops and complete head surface . This is what he sent .. :thumbsup:
After speaking with another bright young man the other night about keeping heat out of the intake tract .. I think I'll spray a couple set's of stripped reed blocks before I put them together ... Jr. your right , every little bit helps !

https://i.imgur.com/8r76xTil.jpg

The next set waiting will be a pair of big inch motors. they will get the intake area , exhaust tract from port to tuner tip , water jackets , lower unit gears and shafts .. anything that makes heat or friction will be attended to .. :)

https://i.imgur.com/AhvvGvbl.jpg

In the mean time , I'm pretty excited to get back the parts I sent out to chryo ..
Part of that batch will be two sets of rods that I , ground the beams, shot peened, bead blasted and coated . When they come back I will burnish in the bearing load area's , wash install new bolts and hang together .. :)

C-Lube ...

https://i.imgur.com/sHdQ4U1l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yOgrsRDl.jpg


I'll send Jason a link to this thread as well ... :thumbsup:

[keefallan]

If you can maintain optimum temp in the chamber without excess heat sink in the head and piston and lose and use the heat out in the exhaust then it should be a positive.
That was what I am wanting to do with it. Yes, my desire is to protect the combustion area. I also saw a test where a ceramic coated top basically removed all the heat from the underside of the piston........no heat transfer/absorbing. Thats the biggest reason why I wanted to do this. I saw it as a way of controlling the heat and trying to funnel it out the exhaust. Then I started thinking about the heads. Why not coat that area too? I liked that even more(top and bottom heat control)...........with the thought that I was forcing the explosive forces to do more work and a little less of the side effects of it...........heat/heat sink. But I was concerned about outboards being so sensitive to heat, that I couldnt get away with the head coating.

[keefallan]

Chaz, awesome layout of what you have done and are doing. It gives me the confidence to coat my heads. I was pretty much convinced about the tops of the pistons already.

I have too have been using exhaust coatings for a little bit......but not as long as you. Prep is definitely the most important part. Bad prep............stuff no stickey......or peel off at the worst time. I have been amazed at the quality of the rattle can coatings from vht. I have now used them on two sets of headers......properly prepped them........and applied the paint right.........they have not chipped or peeled. I was doing budget work , so I was giving it a shot. The truck headers have lasted for over a year now. I usually use a much better exhaust coating, but I can now attest that even the 7 dollar vht can will work and last if you do it right.

I am torn between using techline and cerakote. I remember when cerakote was available thru Jegs or Summit many years ago. Not anymore. You can buy thru them directly however. I did put in an application with techline for a business account. Their retail sales product line is a joke. I can only buy 3oz of cbc-1. I actually want to by the next grade up. So, I need them to approve my application, or will have to go to cerakote. I can buy larger quantities from them. I just want a quart.

I also found numerous sites that coat stuff for you. I dont have anything against the folks that you ship your stuff too. But, as far as I am concerned, its too simple a job to pay someone a huge amount of money to coat a piston top, when you can do the same thing with a touch-up gun and proper technique.

I think I will be coating my pistons for everything I build now.......be it small blocks or outboards. WHen I was researching for hours yesterday, I stumbled onto a test that Hotrod magazine had done on an engine coated and uncoated. They did the whole shebang on the internals...skirts, piston tops, oil shedding coatings etc. The motor gained 9hp. enough said. :D

Its like my friend back in the day, swapped out all his fluids in the motor and drivetrain to synthetics and picked up 2 tenths in the quarter.....free hp to be had.

These coatings wont ever make a cast piston a forged one. But it can surely improve on it.;)

Chaz, now you got me thinking about spraying the intake tracts and exhaust tracts of my crossflow stuff!!!!;)

[powerabout]

on a modded xflow I would add the finger ports.
that cools both the under side and the ears on the deflector

and yes i like with coatings, its the only thing that keeps the F1 car engines alive over several races.

[powerabout]

What does it do to the egt of the engine after coating?

[keefallan]

Hstream1, all of your work looks good. I really like how those pistons turned out............look amazing. I didnt post it earlier, but I was gonna blast my tuner and coat it as well........including the adapter.

I think I am gonna take lots of pics as I go on this build, post the build here.........to show what can be done. Hopefully it will bring more people to want to do this or get coaters such as yourself to do it for them.

I look at it like this. Synthetic oil is superior to crude. It always was. But it took many many years for people to see the light. I see internal coatings as the same thing. But then again, maybe its me who has been behind the times.......I dunno. If so, then I am getting up to speed. But its a win for everyone(to coat their engines internals). Theres some that can do it themselves and others who will want it done, and get others to do it for them. It makes the motor more efficient and last longer.......where's the downside?

Powerabout, I would love to see some diagrams for a fingerport or a boost port(best location in the inspection cover area and size) for a crossflow. I am not doing it on this one. This is just a runabout motor(that I am tweaking a little). I am doing my best to re-make a 140 get to the 140 power level. I know its gonna fall short a litttle. But I do expect it to give a mph or 2 better than my junk powerhead that I have on now.

[powerabout]

It usually alters the EGT readings and in all my experience youll need to richen up the Tune. Because the Coatings are doing exactly what they were designed to do. Burn Combustion efficiency.

I had two of my Coated motors at jasper last year that both placed 1st and 2nd in Pro Mod both days. We had to richen up the tune by 4%. Now alot comes into play. Adjusted Altitude, temperature, Humidity etc.
ok I wondered if the higher egt would be the new normal so the tune would be good?
Are you adding fuel to get the egt back to normal?

[keefallan]

:eek:Amazing. I appreciate you telling that.:thumbsup::D

[keefallan]

Yes But we've also found the motor is asking for more fuel because the combustion efficiency is increased.

So the motor is using the thermal dynamics of the combustion process to make more power instead of losing it into the surrounding metal as a "loss" or by-product?

[powerabout]

Yes But we've also found the motor is asking for more fuel because the combustion efficiency is increased.
not quite with you there, its asking for more fuel as it became more efficient?
did the bsfc go up or down?

[keefallan]

You are asking about fuel consumption....right? I look at it like this. Fuel consumption goes up..........but so does power being made. There were no other changes to the motor....porting etc. So, if more air moves better, then you will have to add more fuel to compensate for it. Thats my layman way of understanding what is going on. I may be wrong in that. But, i think I have that right. Its the old..........you make the air pump more efficient thing.

[Chaz]

What does it do to the egt of the engine after coating?

Power ol boy ,

Your reading way to into it. Lets keep it simple .. If I weld two blocks of aluminum together .. would you rather pick it up bare handed .. or with a five layer glove ?

Will the glove protect your hand until the part cools , or will heat get thru the glove till you can't hold it any longer ????

What coatings do is slow the transfer of heat , just like the glove .

Each and every engine I build gets coated . I also "arrive" at a tune up the engine want's , not what I tell it I think or demand it needs .

I have EGT and O2 sensors in my boat to help me with that.

if you would like to pay for it ... we will need two exact identical (close as possible) engines , one coated , one not . A dyno with fuel flow meter , air flow sensor , 6 egt and an O2's for each bank . A pressure angle sensor drilled and tapped into the chamber . Then you will get a pin point answer to your question.
What I can tell you is that the hard parts can withstand a bigger window in tuning error. or better put , you can strip the fuel out and jack the timing up to where the 02's get closer to stoichiometric than I like to see them for a two stroke ..and not hurt a thing. Can ya get stupid and kill it , of course .. it's not the cure for aids or corona .. but it's a dayum good insulator .. :)

K Allen , I think that you will find that if your a high production shop like Uncle Bud , you would need quarts or gallons of product. I bought quarts of everything. Now I would rather buy smaller quantities , and spray (or some brush on) fresh product.
I look at it like it's fiberglass , old resin and hardener that has been exposed to air never seems to be as good as poppin a fresh can ... ;)
If you speak to Jason , he will see your not a moron that can't be trusted with their product. I think the whole thing is about not supplying large quantities to unqualified people that will do a haphazardly poor job .. on many people's stuff and give them a bad name .. my over the hill azz passed the interview .. :eek: :)

Uncle BBQ .. you sure it was that tuner .. LOL :D

BTW .. Nice display ! I don't have my glasses on .. what does it say on the box directly under the water port of that cut off head ... :leaving:

[keefallan]

I will just have to contact Jason then..........and tell him I gots all me teef!!;) And its good to know about pot life. I understand about the resin thing. Tried usin' old stuff one time.............wow..........."I dont understand Paw..........I even put some extra MEK in there to make it kick off sooner......and its still soft 2 hours later":eek::D ...........live and learn.

[Chaz]

Made In China its the Box you shipped my Block to me in It skared me when i first saw it. ;)

Should have sent my shipping dept that manatee recipe ... :nonod: :leaving:

Chaz = thinkin that joke turned around and bit me in the bee-hind ... :o :D

[Chaz]

I must have misunderstood one of our last conversations Charlie?? :confused: I thought your Deb was coming around to taking a liking to me especially my BBQ manatee Brisket recipe.

Well to be honest with you , she loves us both . But either you or me will get thrown out of the house over her beloved ... Manatee . :eek: ;) :D

i bought one of those "Endangered Outlaw" shirts with the Manatee on the spit , I wore it once and she cut it to ribbons and left it on my desk ... :(

I normally go thru the "toilet bowls" heading south and go thru "Cowpens cut" coming back north ..
She said , that's a cool name . She must have known by the smirk I couldn't wipe off my face .. that she was going to have to know what's so funny . I said honey , that's where Henry Flagler's men hemmed up the manatee as a food source while they built the railroad to Key West ... Just no living with that girl :nonod: if ya **** with her sacred cow ... :leaving:
Everybody else is smart enough not to mention them to her but you and I .... LMAO :D :D

https://www.thehulltruth.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=507928&stc=1&d=1426088402


That special exhaust tuner ... Does it look like this one , or different .. ??? :D

https://soundproofguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/reducing-outboard-motor-noise-2.png

[John800]

Ok, I will add my 2 cents, Myself and some freinds have run them in snowmobile motors, but not outboards but I feel some of what we found will apply. From what we have seen it will give you a degree of insurance. The sled in question would e.t. and mph better in a 1000 foot run jetted as lean as possible untill it stuck a piston. Coat the pistons we could drop a few more jet sizes and found the point where it went slower without it sticking. How much leaner could we have run it because of the coating just to test the durability of the coating? Don’t know, we stopped when jetting down stopped gaining speed. One thing to note, this was a tuned Multiple exhaust 800cc twin making 160 ish hp at 8300 rpm with a 2-300 rpm power peak that moves with exhast Center section pipe temp, much different animal as far as jetting changes are concerned, so I am not suprised to see different results than the member who posted they jettedup. But the fact that we could run leaner jets than we could without the coating is the main takeaway that pretty much sold me on its effectiveness

also, swain tech and line2line coatings are the companies we have used, I also feel their sketches coatings are far higher quality than factory piston coatings, even wiseco coatings

[keefallan]

I know that coated exhaust systems can sometimes cause the owner to jet up as well. i remember seeing numerous times where a motor had been using plain headers and then swapped over to ceramic coated headers and had to jet up because the scavenging effect was so good from the coating, it caused the motor to run lean on the dyno. So, I think its gonna be the old factor, read your plugs or watch the egt's.

[Chaz]

Bud , that slug was ready to start addin filler rod when ya dunked it .. ;)
But it was a dayum good representation of what the piston goes thru , and how well coatings protect it .. and how well it stays on .. :thumbsup:

Coated ring lands ...
I think people started doing the "whole side" of the piston because someone "overheated" the crown to where it expanded to the point where the area between the crown and top land started scuffing.
Top coating would control the excess heat and expansion that goes with it , and it's a whole lot easier than tapering that area an extra degree to reduce the crown's diameter .
The truly lazy , just spray the whole thing .. LOL Which the only detriment I see there is that since the land is such a tight inverted box , that the coating would be thin in spots and overly built up in others. With the locating pin in the way, there is no real way to rotate an old ring to burnish in the coating. Using a partial ring would tend to scratch the land . What a lot of people don't take into consideration is that the ring seats both on the bore as well as the land to provide cylinder sealing. An area that they can do more harm than good. A practice I like to refer to as "calling in an air strike on one's own position" .. :)

[Rodney Nance]

Ok guys here is why you coat the ring lands. It is to coat that little bit of aluminum above the rings
that has more wear on the exhaust side than any where else on the piston.
You don't coat inside the lands heavy and I have never had any problems with the ring clearance.

I have never advertised what coating I use on the domes but I can assure you it works to even out
the heat and eliminate hot spots. If you like ceramic on the domes and combustion chambers and can tune for
it go ahead but remember that heat has to go somewhere and out the exhaust would be ideal but how much heat
are you diverting to the rings? 30 years of doing this has taught me a little.

[22R]

Bout Moly Coating ? Snake oil ? Anyone use it ? Was told my ole XR6 had it done before I had it ??? Who knows but is has run good for years maybe just luck

22R

[keefallan]

Rodney, are you talking about applying DFL above the rings? My first thought is how in the world does it survive all the heat up there?

Bud, that was a great video to prove what the coatings can do.:thumbsup:



Charlie, I am still waiting to hear back from techline. They have already approved the application. But I am in the process of getting my boss' tax I.D. sent over.......setting it up as his companies account. He's gonna use Techline stuff for their conductive coatings.

[keefallan]

I've been meaning to ask you coaters.........what spray gun do you prefer? I have 3-4 hvlp guns for painting cars.....some cheap for primer and a couple nice ones for color and clears. Are they acceptable? Do I need a specific size needle?

[FMP]

I know that coated exhaust systems can sometimes cause the owner to jet up as well. i remember seeing numerous times where a motor had been using plain headers and then swapped over to ceramic coated headers and had to jet up because the scavenging effect was so good from the coating, it caused the motor to run lean on the dyno. So, I think its gonna be the old factor, read your plugs or watch the egt's.

More happening with the V4 than just the tuner temp and exhaust gas temperature, in the "bubble" temp changes within will hurry or delay blowdown pairing arrival. Wether the interior of the chest and bubble passages are coated as well.

[keefallan]

More happening with the V4 than just the tuner temp and exhaust gas temperature, in the "bubble" temp changes within will hurry or delay blowdown pairing arrival. Wether the interior of the chest and bubble passages are coated as well.

FMP, I am glad you brought that up. I plan on coating the filler blocks and the crazy ride in the bubble area as well......and that little block at the bottom of the block.........and the section of aluminum in the adapter above the megaphone. I actually preassembled it real quick in the bubble to see what I had to coat and what I didnt. I want a completely coated exhaust from filler blocks to tuner. Its gonna be a lot of detail work and detail sandblasting to clean up the old gook!!:eek:;) I am really wanting to create a scavenging exhaust system........and I know that it can only be done if every piece is coated the same. The part that isnt coated will be a heat sink(and will slow things down).......well, that's my thoughts anyways.

[Rodney Nance]

Keef. All DFL is not the same. The coating I use on the domes is "thermally active" and if it's one temp on one side it is the same on the other. I am trying to eliminate
hot spots/detonation and it does not burn off. Ceramics are great at shielding heat but you have a piston
that is not round until it gets up to temp. It also has a cool intake charge of fuel and air
running through and around it. And yes the coating I use is proprietary. Anything you do with ceramics in the exhaust will help with the chimney effect and should help with scavenging.

[powerabout]

Ok guys here is why you coat the ring lands. It is to coat that little bit of aluminum above the rings
that has more wear on the exhaust side than any where else on the piston.
You don't coat inside the lands heavy and I have never had any problems with the ring clearance.

I have never advertised what coating I use on the domes but I can assure you it works to even out
the heat and eliminate hot spots. If you like ceramic on the domes and combustion chambers and can tune for
it go ahead but remember that heat has to go somewhere and out the exhaust would be ideal but how much heat
are you diverting to the rings? 30 years of doing this has taught me a little.
Hi Rodney

just wondering, if the piston rejects the heat how does it get back to the rings?

thanks

[Chaz]

Ok guys here is why you coat the ring lands. It is to coat that little bit of aluminum above the rings
that has more wear on the exhaust side than any where else on the piston.
You don't coat inside the lands heavy and I have never had any problems with the ring clearance.

I have never advertised what coating I use on the domes but I can assure you it works to even out
the heat and eliminate hot spots. If you like ceramic on the domes and combustion chambers and can tune for
it go ahead but remember that heat has to go somewhere and out the exhaust would be ideal but how much heat
are you diverting to the rings? 30 years of doing this has taught me a little.


People who are striving to be seen as a "dominant voice or the be all , end all " always seem to press the issue on how many decades they have been doing a certain task rather than let their experience in the field speak for itself.
More times than not , unless you bring in sharp young minds , a guy doing something 30 years quit learning anything new 25 years ago .. Food for thought.

If you got a special secret sauce, that's just short of marvelous darling .. saying that "it works to even out heat and eliminate hot spots".. :rolleyes:

My opinion .......
Welp , being a barrier they all tend to dissipate heat into the crown a bit more slowly. As for eliminating hot spots, those are caused by the lighter end's of the fuel auto igniting in the quench area. You have to deal with that , and your hot spots will no longer be .. as already stated , coating will broaden to tuning window.

Your opinion ...
( knew I seen this somewhere before, right off the Tech~Line web site)



Evenly distributes heat, reduces hot spots, aids in flame travel and combustion.


Then in a manor to instill fear .. "well if you want to use ceramics" ...


You say it like it's a bad thing . I get it , just say .. all parts need to be sent to me because I know a secret .. I could respect that better than putting doubt in the minds of the member's of this board .. :cool:

I have never met Bud in person. But there is a reason I call him my uncle , over the years .. we have talked about everything from child raisin , the world today , best BBQ , to everything in between .. we have done swippin and swappin parts for that long as well .. the last thing I would ever think ,is he would steer me in the wrong direction on what product to use where ..

Bud sent me a Yeti cup about 5 years ago that he powder coated my color blue and my logo in silver flake . It my "shop cup" , I'm :o to say , but it's been dropped , vibrated off the bench , etc. Still in great shape , even the small dings still have stayed bonded.

Those pistons (no run time) he posted with the rubbed off coating , shiny aluminum underneath , or randomly chipped off are really pretty pathetic . We are all human and make mistakes , but those look like they were haphazardly prepped , hastily shot , cured and sent out the door without even looking at them . Somebody paid good money to have them done .. and redone .. Sad

The other person is Jason @ TechLine .. he certainly is not going to sell me the wrong product .. or not tell me the proper way to use it.
I'm a stickler about getting the testing fact's about a product. He said , read here

--> https://techlinecoatings.com/product-info-2/

and you don't understand something , feel free to call me back .. you know , being treated like you would want to be treated .

Pistons are round at the top . The skirts are cam ground , or barrel shaped at the skirts . The skirt never goes round. It would be foolish to guide the base of the piston anywhere other than along the thrust face.
As the piston comes up to temp. and starts dragging the the area above the top ring, there is either too much piston to wall clearance allowing the piston to rock over excessively ... or there is not enough cam built into the piston at or above the wristpin centerline.
I mentioned .. tapering the area above the top ring as a fix for either above issue.
I have no problem coating the area above the top land . Even between lands if that makes ya happy. Just gotta take to time to wrap the lands with string to keep them dry. I like C-Lube .. spec sheet says it's good to 1500*

Ring lands ... I went over the puddling issues in the corners that are more than likely going to develop , if you use anything bigger than an air-brush .. I don't care who you are .. Narrow x deep cut ... come on .
Any part that has the job of sealing a flat finely finished surface against another flat surface doesn't need to be subjected to the prep work it takes to make the coating stick . Todays rings already have a coating on the back and radial wall's to keep them from rusting .

But the real reason you don't coat the ring lands ... :eek:

Is because the heat of combustion (BTU's) is ...

Partially sent to do work.

Partially dissipate into the head and out thru the coolant .

Partially out of the exhaust.

And the remainder that is absorbed into the piston is either transferred into the oil wedge between the skirt and cyl wall .

Or the majority of heat in the crown , is transferred to the rings , thru the lands and into the cyl walls . If you block that pathway .. you only have the fuel charge under the piston left for removal of heat .. not a good move .

[powerabout]

With less heat going into the piston the less heat the rings need to transfer.
Thin rings dont seem to cause a problem so i cant see they are doing too much in the way of transferring heat, sure some but what percentage?

[Rodney Nance]

Chaz I don't know you but you seem to think you have coatings figured out and thats fine.
Many years ago I went and worked at G&L Coatings which later became Tech Line.
At the time a guy named Leonard owned it and developed the coatings and processes that many still use.
I took offence to your statement that people like me quit learning about 25 years ago.
If that was the case I would still be using the same coatings as you are finding out about
now instead of doing my own research mostly with the karting guys and finding out what a 2 stroke wants.
My comment that if you want to use ceramics was not meant to install fear as you said but I really
meant there is more than one way of doing something and any one is welcome to do whatever.
And I never said anybody had to send me anything.

[John800]

To Rodney and hstream1:

what are both of your thoughts on coating combustion chambers? Less important than pistons but still beneficial? Would you treat an atv or snowmobile 2 stroke any different than an outboard because of the difference in cooling system? (Closed loop recirculating vs the endless cold water supply an outboard enjoys)

And, how thick are the coatings you both use on domes and chambers?

[keefallan]

I agree with Bud:iagree:. This post was never meant to take anything away from a man's business. I am doing this thread to get all the uneducated guys such as myself(in the world of coatings) into this field of engine building...........either sending your work out to people such as Bud or doing it in house. Bud was kind enough to chime in and answer my questions.....or anyone else who has coatings as part of their personal business. I am seeking understanding in the process and the little things etc.

This thread was meant to encourage people to get involved in this area..........because there is power to be made here in your motor and even strum up business for the business guy as well......but not to take away business from anyone.

[InjectorService]

I'm not sure where you guys are getting that someone is trying to take business away, I definitely don't read it that way. Anyhow there is a lot of good info on here that we should keep going. Maybe this is a pretty broad question, but if you were to fully coat a motor, how many coatings would you require. 1 for the piston skirts, one for the piston dome, are there different ones for the exhaust and combustion chamber, or would they be the same as the piston dome coating.

What about colors? I see some candy colored piston pictures floating around from time to time. Is there a difference in the color, or is that just how the manufacture specifies?

[FMP]

...It's that candy coated chocolate so tell me when I ask...when you eat your smarties do you eat the red ones last.

[keefallan]

Mr. Injector Service(since I dont know who to call you);), I thought either Chaz or Bud answered your question(better than I am gonna do right now) way back in the beginning of this thread. I remember hearing at least three.........1) for the skirts.. a dry film 2) high temp coating for the top and 3) and oil shedding coating for under the piston and connecting rods.......or maybe thats what I remember studying in my research elsewheres.:eek: I think there's another coating for lubricating the bearings.........but dont hold me to that.

As for the taking business away comment.......I never said anyone was. But Bud was nice enough to answer on here. I felt like I needed to say something about my intentions since he made the statement that he did. He has to walk a fine line and I get that........just as you do with your injector services. Its not that there was any wrong doing at all. But if a business owner is nice enough to comment on things pertaining to his business, then I am just doing my part to keep questions aimed in a general direction. If the business man chooses to share things on the matter, then that is completely up to him. Just my thoughts on things. :D Back to the questions at hand..........coatings!!!

[keefallan]

...It's that candy coated chocolate so tell me when I ask...when you eat your smarties do you eat the red ones last.

Nothing but funny right there................:D

[Chaz]

Chaz I don't know you but you seem to think you have coatings figured out and thats fine.
Many years ago I went and worked at G&L Coatings which later became Tech Line.
At the time a guy named Leonard owned it and developed the coatings and processes that many still use.
I took offence to your statement that people like me quit learning about 25 years ago.
If that was the case I would still be using the same coatings as you are finding out about
now instead of doing my own research mostly with the karting guys and finding out what a 2 stroke wants.
My comment that if you want to use ceramics was not meant to install fear as you said but I really
meant there is more than one way of doing something and any one is welcome to do whatever.
And I never said anybody had to send me anything.


Rodnut ,
Here's what I think I have figured out . I got everything right except for the grievances listed above .. I'll address them now ... ;)

In the last two decades , you have received .0091% (thats less than a tenth of one percent) thanks on your total post count. If your as smart as you think you are , you haven't done much in proving it to others.

I've got a secret , must not go as far as it use to. My mother watched it on our black and white round screen TV set when I was a kid .. :)

I'm not in the coating business , nor do i have asperations to be. I have been doing my motors , and motors I machine and assemble for others. The people who have wanted their stuff done .. I send them Uncle Bud's way .. He's in that business .

I stated I know of only two people in that industry that I trust. I'm friends with Buzz (Artie) owner of TOEFCO . Been a couple decades, maybe longer. Strictly about open wheel drag cars , never about buiz ..

I mentioned that I bought strictly from the "new" Tech Line , as well as the old. You quote their somewhat "dated" web literature ... I guess things must not have changed much on your end. I know its a secret .. I won't tell .. :p

Lenard .. as in Lenard Warren .. ? Yea I met him at the PRI show .. long ago.
How's his half-brother Jim doin ..? Wow dude, surf's up and it's like totally gnarly to the max ... ;)

Your self centeredness makes you think I was talking about you. I said : unless someone in buiz hires bright young minds .. or works with skilled craftsmen .. :rolleyes:

One might make a ton of money hiring low paid flunkys , but will never learn any more than they know right now. I say that from my personal experience .. I'm only as good as my teachers made me .. Today I pray to remain teachable .. :)
Anyone who thinks they taught themselves everything they know .. has a fool for a teacher ... :D

I read it a few times before I pulled the trigger ... Welllll .. if your gonna use ceramics ... again you said that like its a bad thing ...

But you just wait , next time I speak to Jason .. Duuddeeee , why don't you sell me the new improved $hiz like your disgruntled X employee has .. Ppppfffttttt :nonod:

You don't have to ask anyone to send you parts to coat. Stating ..Shucks , I been coatin parts with my spa~cial souse now fer pert near 30 years .. Use that cheap *** ifin ya want to ... Oh no , the sky is fallin.. :eek:
Is a back door sales pitch ifin I ever seed one ... :cool:

Just my opinion ...
You jumped on here with a bit of a knee-jerk reaction right after Bud posted the pictures of a "couple jobs from a competitor or maybe even two" --->

Chaz = startin to think, you might have had a hand in doin ... :eek: well you know :thumbsup:

Mind if I call ya ..... Chip ?

[powerabout]

There nothing ceramic in ceramic coating is there?

[keefallan]

Good question Power!!! The answer to that may be like Mcdonalds giving up the ingredients to the special sauce on a Big Mac..........coating companies secrets............SSSHHHH!!!! Maybe Bud or Charlie or Rod knows. I sure do not.

[HStream1]

Why Isnt there? If it doesnt consist of ceramic properties how can it be Formulated, Branded, patented and sold as ceramic coatings? Im not going to dive into the chemical make up of ceramics because the are more than one type of ceramic. Actually there are 7 different Types. Its not as simple as A, B, C. Different chemical compositions result in different Thermal barrier properties. I think what confuses people is when they think of ceramic they think of Earthware, Stoneware, Glass or Porcelain (i.e Crystalline or Non Crystalline Ceramics). Thats simply not the case. For me to sit here and try to break down each and every type would cause my head to explode and your's trying to read it. Im by no means a chemical engineer so ill leave that to them. But before i decided to get into Ceramic Coatings i felt I owed it to myself to have a Thorough understanding of its Make up capabilities and why it works.


There nothing ceramic in ceramic coating is there?

[Merc 2.5]

Hey bud. I gots me a new set pistons still n box. Whats it cost a feller to get em coated? Thanks u can pm me if its better

[HStream1]

You have PM


Hey bud. I gots me a new set pistons still n box. Whats it cost a feller to get em coated? Thanks u can pm me if its better

[Chaz]

I'm kinda partial to that "Eastern N. Carolina BBQ sauce" ... :D

Anybody , know what's in it ... who cares it's goooooooddddd .. ;)


https://frommykitchentoyourkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/20120910_223537.jpg

[Rodney Nance]

Chip call me 423-488-4582
Rodney Nance
Racekote

[InjectorService]

...It's that candy coated chocolate so tell me when I ask...when you eat your smarties do you eat the red ones last.

Actually I do! Don't you know, you save the best ones for last?


Mr. Injector Service(since I dont know who to call you);), I thought either Chaz or Bud answered your question(better than I am gonna do right now) way back in the beginning of this thread. I remember hearing at least three.........1) for the skirts.. a dry film 2) high temp coating for the top and 3) and oil shedding coating for under the piston and connecting rods.......or maybe thats what I remember studying in my research elsewheres.:eek: I think there's another coating for lubricating the bearings.........but dont hold me to that.

As for the taking business away comment.......I never said anyone was. But Bud was nice enough to answer on here. I felt like I needed to say something about my intentions since he made the statement that he did. He has to walk a fine line and I get that........just as you do with your injector services. Its not that there was any wrong doing at all. But if a business owner is nice enough to comment on things pertaining to his business, then I am just doing my part to keep questions aimed in a general direction. If the business man chooses to share things on the matter, then that is completely up to him. Just my thoughts on things. :D Back to the questions at hand..........coatings!!!

Well typically I go by DOCTOR INJECTOR, but you can call me Blake. Hah! :p :cheers:

[keefallan]

Actually I do! Don't you know, you save the best ones for last?



Well typically I go by DOCTOR INJECTOR, but you can call me Blake. Hah! :p :cheers:

Now I know DoctorInJect.....errr Blake. ;) Do you take the injector's temperature too doc?

[keefallan]

Here save yourself some Money:

Bud’s Bar B Q Sauce
1-Gallon Apple Cider Vinegar
1 (28/32 oz.) Bottle Ketchup , (I prefer Heinz 57 Sauce) The type of BBQ Sauce will determine if the Sauce will be Sweet or Vinegary
2 Cups Brown Sugar
1 ½ Cups to 2 Cups Worcestershire Sauce or to taste (I split the difference)
¼ Cup Garlic Powder (Heavy)
¼ Cup Onion Powder (Heavy)
¼ Cup Salt
¼-1/3 Cup Crushed Red Pepper (Heavy) The more the better
½ Tablespoon Crushed Cloves
2 Heaping Tablespoons Ground Black Pepper (Heavy)
2 Tablespoons Ground Sage (Be careful to much Sage can ruin the sauce)
2 Tablespoons Ground Ginger
2 Tablespoons Ground Mustard
2 Lemons Sliced
1-Tablespoon Pepper Corns
1 Tablespoon MSG or Accent
5 oz Liquid Smoke
¼ Cup Tabasco Or Preferred Hot Sauce (If You Want It Hotter)(I always add Hot Sauce)

Mix All Ingredients In A Large Pot. Bring To A Boil Reduce Heat And Simmer Until Crushed Red Pepper De-Husks And Sinks. Place Lemon peals and peppercorns in a blender with some sauce and liquefy; mix blended peals and corns with existing sauce, keep mixed thoroughly, Bottle Warm Not Hot.

Do same as above with the exception of liquefying peals and corns while finalizing (after flipping) a whole pig; aggressively baste with sauce the last hour thus impregnating the meat. (Sauce should be hot for best results).

Buds Eastern Carolina Style BBQ Sauce
1 Qt Apple Cider Vinegar
1 Cups Brown Sugar to taste I prefer ½ Cups and adjust from there.
1/4 Cup Hot sauce
2 Tablespoons Red pepper flake
1-2 Tablespoon Cayenne Pepper
2 Tbsp Black pepper
1 TBSP sage
1/8 Cup salt

Bring all ingredients to a simmer. When Red pepper flakes settle its done.

Can Thicken with corn starch if desired.

Man.......I was hoping it was the recipe for the Big Mac special sauce!!!:D I guess I will have to settle foe a yummy BBQ sauce instead;), but I dom think I will have to halve it........alot of sauce for me.

[RBT]

That bbq sauce might be the only worthwhile reading on this whole thread!

[keefallan]

That bbq sauce might be the only worthwhile reading on this whole thread!

WOW!!:eek: You havent said a thing on this thread and you open your mouth to say that.......couldnt even have worded it a little different.

[Chaz]

Chip call me 423-got-runs
Rodnut Nance
Chipkote

There .. fixed it for ya ... ;)

Chip was used to tie you to a piston on page one .. had no intention of calling on the phone .. but I do gotta hand it to ya , you proved me rite .. back door advertisement :p

Would you prefer "scratch's right off" "scratch + dent" or maybe :

"ringland~wrekker" has a nice ........ "ring" to it ... :smiletest:

I want you to know ... I like Tenn BBQ almost as well ... :nonod:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.bigpoppasmokers.com/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/a/sauce_blues_hot_tennessee_16oz_551bhr_1000.png

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WOW!!:eek: You havent said a thing on this thread and you open your mouth to say that.......couldnt even have worded it a little different.

Can't really blame RibBiT , he's one of them foreigners. They ain't ate real food let alone southern BBQ ever since Trump closed the gate ... smarties + yeller snow .. Yickkk :D
Would kinda make me forget about coated pistons , ifin I was in that situation too .. ;)

[keefallan]

Charlie, you sure you didnt miss your calling as a comedian? ;)

I am still waiting for my boss to get the tax stuff sent over to Techline. Its chaos at the shop. .....not for me............for him. I would've done it already. But since its not mine, I wait impatient........err patiently. Its all good anyways....I need to blast my parts for spraying anyways....thats gonna take more time than anything else........especially at the base of my powerhead where the bubbleback turns the exhaust back towards the motor before shooting down into the adapter/tuner.

I also need to get me one of dem new fangled tablets to take pics for posting. WHen I did pics b4, I used my digital slr camera. It takes fabulous pictures(35mm 'tography a hobby)but is a pain to upload etc. The tablet ...... it is already there. Saves me time. I aint smarts enuff to use a smarts phone. Nah.......I just prefer a flip phone......... with me being anti-technology, anti-fussbook, anti-twittledum etc. That's just me. ;)

[Chaz]

Keef ,
It's the story of my life ... I'm usually at the airport, when my ship come's in .. :eek: :D

Sometimes it's almost impossible to reach certain places to get it 100% clean. The best we can do is to make a flapper wheel out of strips of old aluminum oxide sanding belts. Or scuff it up (shoe shine) by hand.
You can also brush these coating's in place . Small brush duct taped to a strip of metal can be bent to reach into some pretty tight places. And if you miss an area or two along the path , it's not like the exhaust column is going to stall out and transfer all it's energy into a bare spot or two.
I've fixed headers before where you could see that it was sprayed from each end , and didn't stick to spots in the middle .. It's still better than not doing it at all .. :cheers:
<--- ( BBQ sauce ) :D

[keefallan]

Great stuff to know. I was gonna ask about how to get into the middle of a tuner where my spray gun wont reach!!;)

[RBT]

WOW!!:eek: You havent said a thing on this thread and you open your mouth to say that.......couldnt even have worded it a little different.


Well, I read it and the noted that the current batch of suspects have hijacked what could be a cool thread. Instead you got questionable insight with no real data on what is the right thing to do and where (if any). Add anyone with a different OPINION or even fact will be entered into a kindergarten game of name calling and picture time with no real relevant purpose other than to take up band width and push away those looking to offer advise.

[FMP]

Actually I do! Don't you know, you save the best ones for last?



Well typically I go by DOCTOR INJECTOR, but you can call me Blake. Hah! :p :cheers:

It was kind of a lose analogy , comparison of the hard coating with inner chocolate.

Yes the red ones

[Chaz]

Well, I read it and the noted that the current batch of suspects have hijacked what could be a cool thread. Instead you got questionable insight with no real data on what is the right thing to do and where (if any). Add anyone with a different OPINION or even fact will be entered into a kindergarten game of name calling and picture time with no real relevant purpose other than to take up band width and push away those looking to offer advise.

Coating's were covered early . Some poor info was given by those who have never coated anything .. or have yet to grasp the concept of negative vs positive pressure waves . and some info given from those who do/have coated .. but do a pizz poor job. Then we celebrated over a few plates of BBQ ... :)
If you missed something , or need something explained , just present it in the form of a question .. If your hungry and delirious .. you guys have 100% free medical ... and I'll see if we can get a plate or two set out by the fence for ya .. :thumbsup:

[FMP]

Here's a good local company , descriptions of products.
http://www.fireballcoatings.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8&Itemid=19

[A-train-97]

I have a quick question for those that are coating piston domes. Any thoughts or trials on if coating would help prevent ring locator pins from backing out? To my understanding one of the biggest contributors to them backing out is because of the heat cycles?

[HStream1]

Check your PM for the answer to your question.


I have a quick question for those that are coating piston domes. Any thoughts or trials on if coating would help prevent ring locator pins from backing out? To my understanding one of the biggest contributors to them backing out is because of the heat cycles?

[keefallan]

Here's a good local company , descriptions of products.
http://www.fireballcoatings.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8&Itemid=19

FMP, have you used them? I see they are up north by you. I did appreciate their info given about the gains in torque and hp. I think its a good indicator for the coatings and what they can do. I am not saying they are all the same. But what I am saying is that they all should be similar. Some will be better than others. But if they didnt do their job, the coatings and coaters wouldnt be in business right? That statement is made by comparing apples to apples......piston top coating to piston top coating, nothing off base or weird. Some coatings may have larger gains or be tougher or even more flexible...I dunno. But to be an exhaust coating or a piston coating, they must have similarities or they wouldnt work in their respective environment...........like coating a top with DFL. What I am trying to say is this.........if the coating is decent(some being better) it will bring power levels up and protect the engine all at the same time. Where's the loss there?

I really am going to coat all my exhaust parts, domes, and combustion chambers on all my personal outboard builds from now on. I think its foolish not to........when you can gain measureable power just by "painting" your parts or having a pro "paint" your parts for you? Those are loose quotes by the way.........its more involved than that;)

[RBT]

Here's a good local company , descriptions of products.
http://www.fireballcoatings.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8&Itemid=19

Been using them for years, very good company and quality workmanship. They coat my stuff ( I don't do pistons tops, as it creates other issues)

[Chaz]

I coated these heads with aluminum a while back ... :D

https://i.imgur.com/YO028CHl.jpg

Made em where they would fit .

https://i.imgur.com/VM95yR2l.jpg

I'm digging them out of the mothballs and going to use them on the "stock 225's " I'm hangin together ... after I make the chambers look like this ...

https://i.imgur.com/aXP33iYl.jpg

Next pair .. slugs will look like this ...

https://i.imgur.com/jLRyLHLl.jpg

You guys outside of "the world" are pretty limited I guess. I'd ask thunderfire or whoever they are if they import TechLine products ... Wheel's look good .. just like DiamonDyze .. ;)

https://techlinecoatings.com/news/techline-new-products/diamondyze/

[Dave S]

Hey Chazz..watching the vidio ….. can we just use this new stuff instead of nick/chrome? The more you polish the shinneyer it gets?

[Merc 2.5]

Been using them for years, very good company and quality workmanship. They coat my stuff ( I don't do pistons tops, as it creates other issues)

Seems like thats the 1st thing people do is piston tops can u tell me the other issues it causes? Not doubting you but im bout get some coating done also and would like to know of people different experiences I havent heard about any cons yet thanks.

[keefallan]

Curious too...........

But I am still coating mine......

[powerabout]

Imho and no testing done, i think you get 2 issues.
More heat resistant piston so more safety margin.
Less heat lost into the piston so hotter chamber so should increase bmep and maybe detonation if your close with the fuel you use?
But do you now need a modified cooling system and modifed tune to suit the fuel you use?

[keefallan]

Here's a question.....can the ceramic coating be used to fill imperfections in a head........like minor pitting? Like could you spray a coat, bake it on, rough up the surface again, and apply another coat? Just me thinking outside of the box.

Anybody ever tried it............kinda like using it like bondo.........apply coating, sand it down, pits are now filled in, apply final coating, new combustion chamber...yes? no? maybe so?

Whatcha think Mr Chaz?;) And no smart#@$ answers either:D!!

[Chaz]

Pits ... like pores in a sand or foam casting ... ?

Or Pits ... like in when ya peel back a piston crown and the shrapnel from the ring embeds itself into the head ... ?

When all else fails , read the instructions ... :D

One thin coat , bake and serve .. ;)

Bondo is in Isle seven next to the putty knifes .. :leaving:

This stuff works pretty good , in filling those pesky trench's ... :D

https://www.weldequip.com/products/4043-aluminium-tig-rods-large.jpg

[CI STV]

Apologies for the hi-Jack, but since there’s some smart guys on here talking about thermal barrier coatings, I wanted to ask if there is any advantage in ceramic coating the tuner for a high rpm motor? I’ve already done mine, more for looks, tbh. I’m not so dumb to think it will be any discernible difference in HP output, but it should have sort of the same effect as keeping cooling water off the tuner, no?
Not to mention helping to protect the tuner from corrosion (since I’ll be running in salt water):
474197

[keefallan]

It was previously posted that you can expect gains with the tuner coated. It may have been taken down. The answer is yes...there is gains there. But You should try and coat the rest of the exhaust tract as well........keeps the speed of the exhaust up.......improve scavenging.....make that tuner work even better.

[keefallan]

Pits ... like pores in a sand or foam casting ... ?

Or Pits ... like in when ya peel back a piston crown and the shrapnel from the ring embeds itself into the head ... ?

When all else fails , read the instructions ... :D

One thin coat , bake and serve .. ;)

Bondo is in Isle seven next to the putty knifes .. :leaving:

This stuff works pretty good , in filling those pesky trench's ... :D

https://www.weldequip.com/products/4043-aluminium-tig-rods-large.jpg


1) pits from detonation but no ring plinko..........call it somewheres in between your statements:D

2)Why read the instructions when I can just ask you?;) Of course I'd read dem structions......but sumtimz.....I'z trying to tink outside der box... ever done dat one.....? :D:D:D

3) Your are able to get enough heat into the surrounding aluminum to ad that solder sticks? I have no problem using them as filler, especially if I am gonna be coating on top of it. But my biggest prob is getting 'nuff heat .

[nitro_rat]

I bought some of that aluminum solder junk one time. Supposed to be able to "weld" aluminum with a propane torch. I was skeptical so I used MAPP gas. Dripped a bunch of that rod all over the place but never got much of it to stick to anything. I was probably doing it wrong...

[Chaz]

More heat resistant piston so more safety margin.

Yes , if you do the tops.

If you do the sides or "skirts" with a DFL (dry film lube) You have added protection from scuffing and the heat from friction that comes along with it . Even though the piston is riding on a wedge of oil .. well we have all seen pistons that have broken thru the wedge and ran metal to metal .. :eek:


Less heat lost into the piston so hotter chamber so should increase bmep and maybe detonation if your close with the fuel you use?
But do you now need a modified cooling system and modifed tune to suit the fuel you use?

When you start an engine cold , does it come up to temp at the first bark of the exhaust ... or does it take time to 'warm up" .

Do cold engines detonate , or is it more prevalent with hot / overheated engine parts.

Coated parts reflect heat . They don't hold it until the next cycle , where they spring up and say .. HaHa .. deal with this heat I have been saving for ya . No , it provides a safer vessel to convert fuel to BTU's / work. Fuel's have different flash points / BTU content, so no matter what engine / fuel combo you have , coated or not , you always need to "arrive at a Tune-up" . Most outboards are over fueled anyway , plenty of safety margin built in.
Everybody tunes different , but engines themselves tend to like to be on the rich side of stoichiometric , up to a point . Beyond that , your trying to put the fire out with gasoline .. It's better to get the air/ fuel ratio correct , and put the timing in the back seat . High timing (overly timed) feels torquey off the bottom , and at times most of the way thru the power band . Spark knock is always just around the corner.
I pushed the issue before (what's new) . Because coatings do give you a pretty wide safety net, it can give you a bit (ok bunch) of overconfidence .
I had a ratty 3.0L that the pistons were done on the top and sides , 155 psi of squeeze ... and the rest of it was wore out. :o I striped five psi of pressure out of the fuel and jacked the timing by three degree's .. It was fine until I turned turned my steam wheel (I don't why people call it that, it's just a rheostat that replaces the IAT sensor) to lean .. It was pretty snappy until it blew a hole out the side. Would it have lived if I took out three degree's instead of added timing ... probably. Would it have liked the timing and extra fuel .. maybe, but it was already factory fat. Without back to back .. that would be another one of those "If my aunt was my uncle" stories.
I since put the sensor back in , and use the knobs ( 0 - 5000 ohms) to put fuel in when cold starting. :thumbsup: Of course , I could bump the pressure down a couple and use the wheel to put it back in ... LOL No I learned that lesson .. I'm not mature enough to ever tune it sloppy and be happy ..:o :D
11.5 - 12.5 seems to produce EGT's in the 1050 to 1100* range .. I had an old carb 225 that would go 1200 - 1300 on top end. I didn't have 02's back then .. but like any carb , they go fat when the motor can't ingest any more air. I can't help but think that A/F dipped below 11:1 and was burning in the exhaust , giving a false reading.

Chaz = thinkin , Cooling ... you have the whole ocean at your disposal , if you can't make that work .. then the EPA must have put some anti-cooling chemical in it .. ;)

[Chaz]

Apologies for the hi-Jack, but since there’s some smart guys on here talking about thermal barrier coatings, I wanted to ask if there is any advantage in ceramic coating the tuner for a high rpm motor? I’ve already done mine, more for looks, tbh. I’m not so dumb to think it will be any discernible difference in HP output, but it should have sort of the same effect as keeping cooling water off the tuner, no?
Not to mention helping to protect the tuner from corrosion (since I’ll be running in salt water):
474197

Not a hi-jack actually fits right in ... :thumbsup:

I cant help but think that anytime you contain heat in the exhaust , you are keeping the air speed velocity up .
Just watch the weatherman .. err .. I do like those weather girls from the Caribbean .. can't help it , white boy from Mi-hami ;)
They will talk about this column of air running into that stream and stalling out or adding to it and becoming a storm. Works kind of the same way. Temp / pressure thing .. :thumbsup:

The tuners live in a mist .. if you can separate what's going on inside vs what the environment is like inside it's wall's .. while not earth shattering , it will be one of those little bricks that when added up, turn into a wall of power .. Like I said ,I have two blocks that I am doing from the ex port @ the sleeve .. to the tip of the upside down funnel .. :)

Corrosion ... I have a little Holley blue that I have transferred gas , diesel , hyd oil , water .. ahh .. dirty water :eek: (dont ask) and yea bilge water too .. mineral spirits , bug spray , you name it .. It would seize up after i threw it in the corner for a month .. :o I'd have to pull it apart , blast it and throw it back together. A couple sets of pistons ago , I squirted and baked the inner parts with the left over DLF .. I've used it a couple times since .. nothing will grow on the inside now .. :eek:
Now I guess I need to do my water pump housings and bottom wear plates .. always sumptin .. :D

[Chaz]

1) pits from detonation but no ring plinko..........call it somewheres in between your statements:D

2)Why read the instructions when I can just ask you?;) Of course I'd read dem structions......but sumtimz.....I'z trying to tink outside der box... ever done dat one.....? :D:D:D

3) Your are able to get enough heat into the surrounding aluminum to ad that solder sticks? I have no problem using them as filler, especially if I am gonna be coating on top of it. But my biggest prob is getting 'nuff heat .

I have sanded light scuff's out of piston skirts , blasted and coated used pistons with DLF and day luke realll goood mon .. :cheers: <---- (bondo cream hardener) :eek:
They also make a "high build" coating , I never used it , just remember it being in their product line ... Let us know how it works .. :D

Yea .. that 4043 "solder" rod is some tough stuff , ya gotta leave it out in the Florida sun to get it to flow ... :rolleyes:

https://i.imgur.com/uubo5Vml.jpg

I tried it indoors , just not enough heat ... :iagree:

https://i.imgur.com/TlmsiEEl.jpg

[keefallan]

Hilarious story about the fuel pump!!:D

[FMP]

The medium for the wave signal is the spent ex gas. The hotter the gas the faster the signal through distance. The pumping rarefaction from the tuner ratio clear through the mid - chest and cylinder. If you prevent heat soaking at the source through to the end that medium will be a higher temp. Saying that, if you come off the throttle to a low rpm the lesser heat soak in the system can result in a more advantageous port to port signal by a slight delay during low rpm climb, that's a positive in arrival time. The cooler coated tuner will result in the gas medium having a better signal potential at low rpm when going up and down the rpm. Good if you're spending the afternoon skiing etc.

[Chaz]

The medium for the wave signal is the spent ex gas. The hotter the gas the faster the signal through distance. The pumping rarefaction from the tuner ratio clear through the mid - chest and cylinder. If you prevent heat soaking at the source through to the end that medium will be a higher temp. Saying that, if you come off the throttle to a low rpm the lesser heat soak in the system can result in a more advantageous port to port signal by a slight delay during low rpm climb, that's a positive in arrival time. The cooler coated tuner will result in the gas medium having a better signal potential at low rpm when going up and down the rpm. Good if you're spending the afternoon skiing etc.

FuMPy , I already spoke of temp /velocity in post #78 .. actually before that , but I just went with a recent explanation so you could keep up .. :p

The rest is typical FuMPy .. psychobabble ... :rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w

[keefallan]

Where in THEE HAIL did u find that hilarious piece of mumbo jumbo??:D I think I saw a flux capacitor in that small switch gear cabinet!!!:eek:

[FMP]

Yes we saw your post, temp pressure thing , very good.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jMyD3TSXyUc

[Chaz]

FuMPy , your drivel was why I posted on this thread in the first place. For someone who has never coated , welded aluminum , ported a cylinder head or block , bored a cylinder ... you sure like to spew misinformation on those subjects .. :(

He11 .. for all I know , you still haven't got a handle on "positive" and "negative" pressure waves ... another topic you have no business in . Other than to listen and learn ... ;)

Yes , cartoons .. right on your level ... :p

[FMP]

Your typical run on, stick with hondas you're better suited to them

[rgsauger]

Hey Chaz. So I melted #6 piston in my 2.4. Real bad...burned the piston down to the ring and put molten al out the exhaust. Wiped out my cherry chrome bore.

I was at 150 psi plus minus 1 or so on all 6. The others are good. Think I got bad lean. Is that from trash in jet in carb and would coatings on pistons have prevented it?

[Chaz]

Hey Chaz. So I melted #6 piston in my 2.4. Real bad...burned the piston down to the ring and put molten al out the exhaust. Wiped out my cherry chrome bore.

I was at 150 psi plus minus 1 or so on all 6. The others are good. Think I got bad lean. Is that from trash in jet in carb and would coatings on pistons have prevented it?

People get away with more compression in certain applications. But rule of thumb is 140 PSI for good pump gas.
90% of the carnage I see happens to number five and six cylinder. Nature of the common exhaust log ..
You have the carb , drop the bowl , see if there is trash floating or if a bird flew into the jet and got stuck.
Long ago I had a 2.5 that ran pretty good for a long time. Only thing I did different was .. traffic was bad, I was in a hurry, so I went to a easier access gas station , and my wife invited another couple out for the day .. 20 minutes out ... WhaaaaRupp .. locked solid ... Sometimes we never know which it was .
Coatings aren't the cure for AIDS .. but it's like wearing a raincoat .. helps your chances of survival ... :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FuMPy quips :

FMP

Your typical run on, stick with hondas you're better suited to them


I think everyone knows I'm direct , accurate , consistent and to the point. If I don't know something .. I won't answer. If asked, I will say I don't know .
If I do know , or have done it myself .. I'll say what I learned ... and back it up with pictures. More times than not , there is a green Flannigan's cup somewhere in the background .
You on the other hand .. inject someone else's theory into the conversation . So if you don't know what your talking about , and you don't understand the pilfered theory .. by the time you speak .. you emit a soup sammich consisting of Ion defractor incapulator reluctifacatoin bilateral rareafaction of the tuner ratioabulatortransformulator ... nonsense .

I gotta ask .. did you do too much acid in the 1960's , or do a big load of meth , just before posting this .... :confused:


The pumping rarefaction from the tuner ratio clear through the mid - chest and cylinder. If you prevent heat soaking at the source through to the end that medium will be a higher temp.

Show us your pistons , your tuner , parts you coated .. Heck I'd settle for a receipt in your name written in the last decade for any of those mentioned parts ... :p

I'd still like to see your porting station .. I've posted mine , and a Superflow bench with one of my billet reed blocks hangin on it .. and yes, I still have my factory Honda tools. Kawasaki and Yamaha too ... Mercury factory tools .. as well as a whole toolbox full of tools that I made , just to machine outboards ... and your tools ???

For once, back up something you say .. or please quit lying to everyone. Someone might actually believe you and .. nevermind, no one is foolish enough to follow you off the cliff ... carry on .. :nonod:

My tuner ... and yours ????

https://i.imgur.com/iRLWstGl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dk9gsKyl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4BHtLZll.jpg

This thread is about piston's and coating's .. here is one of mine .. and yours ???

https://i.imgur.com/VdqJoqZl.jpg

[keefallan]

Next great question.......if a part is too big to bake...........can you use a heat gun to do the job?...........think engine block;)

[Chaz]

Deep fry Turkey cooker from Lowes . Give the pot to the Mrs. for sketti sauce . Put an aluminum plate on top .. preheat . (200*)

Harbor Fright , roofing torch .. for secondary heating ( like it you want the sleeves to fall out 450* )

Make a sheet metal tent or if you still have an asbestos blanket :eek: drape it over the block to cool in a closed environment .. :cheers: <----( sketti sauce ) :D



My apologies to anyone offended by what I say .. My intention was to get Jason to maybe post here . And to get Bud to share a bit on the techniques and tricks he has learned over the years. It's not my place to speak on what either has taught me.
As long as post's come from the loony bin , it's hard for a guy at a big company to justify joining the group and sharing .. food for thought ...

Multiplex demodulator .. out :cheers: <--- (lit-ion flux charging fluid)

[keefallan]

Thanks for the input Chaz. That question was for my engine block at the bottom to get that small little square area coated with ceramic.:thumbsup:

[Chaz]

Keef , the easy thing to do is .. put on your old work clothes , go to Salvation Army or Goodwill and pick out a nice oven for $40.00 dollars.

If your ego is such that you can't :nonod: be seen with common folks ;) then go to the box store and have them install mama a new oven any you take the old one ..:)

If your a baller .. just buy two new ones ... :eek:
Don't forget to stop and buy a few 450R on the way home ... :rolleyes: :D

[keefallan]

Chaz, its not that long ago, that thrift store shopping was common place for me........putting clothes on my three growing boys and more. So no, there's no problems with bargain shopping..........especially when its gonna be trashed!!:D

And heck, if I was a baller, I wouldnt be here asking these questions.....HAHAHAHAHAHA!;)

[Chaz]

Unto the least of these ... :)

[Chaz]

So I take it .. no 450's on the way home ... :nonod: :D

[keefallan]

So I take it .. no 450's on the way home ... :nonod: :D


.......maybe one day!!!:D

[Chaz]

That's the spirit ... :cheers: <---(better pick holy-water for this one) ;)

Spoke to my Cryogenics guy today , said he should be able to get them done this weekend , and get my parts back to me next week ... :)

Then its time to have a needle bearing party , hangin the rods and pistons together.

34 per cyl x 12 cyls ... 408 needles .. :eek: Goes pretty quick .. made a couple tools to make it a little faster and easier ... :)

[rgsauger]

Thanks Chaz. Looks like I might be going back to stock heads after the rebuild until I can get them cut the right amount. Is there a thicker head gasket that would lower my psi much? To your point, I had bought gas from a secondary gas station that morning for the same reason...convenience.

[Chaz]

Somtimes a little convenience now = a PIA later .. :eek:

Pro has different gaskets for the 2.4's . You can ask them , or look up what your motor uses ... and what the different part #'s represent.

http://parts.promarineusa.com/products/M50/1/1/30/210/1050/1

[keefallan]

Chaz,

Nothing like doing the needles. I am gonna fab up a tool myself after listening to other guys making one.........you included. I been doing it da dumb way:eek:

I got my adapter blasted today, anticipating the thermal coat,......MAN!! Is that exhaust crud stuck on there or what? I held the gun at a couple of spot s for a LONG time!! Actually I have to do it again. I was using the hybrid media Glass-n- aluminum oxide. So, when the alum ox comes in, I will swap it out and re-blast. But my adapter looked so cruddy, I couldnt wait. At least now, you can carry it around and dont have to wipe off your hands. And yes, STILL WAITING ON MY BOSS TO FINALIZE THE ACCOUNT SETUP. Just one fax or email..............!!!!! I still have plenty to do in the meantime. ;)

Here's some powder coating I had to do at work this week.......its not motor related. But sometimes you like to post a thing or two to show that you are not just all talk;)

These are just some CT's (current transformers) that my boss's company uses to test circuits on govt ships. its basically b4, sandblasted, and after. He wants those crazy colors so that he can police the guys working.....using the right ct's.

[keefallan]

Guys, I had finally got my coating from Techline earlier this week and I was excited this morning to get 'er done. But when I pulled the pistons out of the boxes I found this.............

476265 If you look, you can see that the top is natural, but the deflector and opposite side is different. This is a pro marine piston. So my question is....what is that glossy gray on the top(sides)?

I did spray my adapter, and filler blocks..........but no pics today, I didnt get to cook them yet......just sprayed on and ran out of time. I will bake them monday morning. I cooked them for an hour(at 450) to outgas them before I sprayed them.

[keefallan]

Anybody know what that coating is?

[Merc 2.5]

R u doin the skirts to it just top/ crown of slugs?

[keefallan]

R u doin the skirts to it just top/ crown of slugs?I am leaving the skirts alone, since their skirt coating is pretty decent looking. I was disappointed a little in the fact that they didnt complete the coating all the way around and mask off around wrist pin, but hey, its one less thing I have to do. It is the crown that has me perplexed. They have a coating of sorts on the the 2 sides of the crown area without the flat area on the crown being coated. So, is that gloss gray coating a ceramic coating or what? And if so, leave it and just coat the flat area with more coating? thats what I am trying to figure out.

[mrichartz]

Chaz,

Nothing like doing the needles. I am gonna fab up a tool myself after listening to other guys making one.........you included. I been doing it da dumb way:eek:

I got my adapter blasted today, anticipating the thermal coat,......MAN!! Is that exhaust crud stuck on there or what? I held the gun at a couple of spot s for a LONG time!! Actually I have to do it again. I was using the hybrid media Glass-n- aluminum oxide. So, when the alum ox comes in, I will swap it out and re-blast. But my adapter looked so cruddy, I couldnt wait. At least now, you can carry it around and dont have to wipe off your hands. And yes, STILL WAITING ON MY BOSS TO FINALIZE THE ACCOUNT SETUP. Just one fax or email..............!!!!! I still have plenty to do in the meantime. ;)

Here's some powder coating I had to do at work this week.......its not motor related. But sometimes you like to post a thing or two to show that you are not just all talk;)

These are just some CT's (current transformers) that my boss's company uses to test circuits on govt ships. its basically b4, sandblasted, and after. He wants those crazy colors so that he can police the guys working.....using the right ct's.

What did you say you address was to ship those parts I want done..lol

[Merc 2.5]

I am leaving the skirts alone, since their skirt coating is pretty decent looking. I was disappointed a little in the fact that they didnt complete the coating all the way around and mask off around wrist pin, but hey, its one less thing I have to do. It is the crown that has me perplexed. They have a coating of sorts on the the 2 sides of the crown area without the flat area on the crown being coated. So, is that gloss gray coating a ceramic coating or what? And if so, leave it and just coat the flat area with more coating? thats what I am trying to figure out.

I just curious if u were doin skirts to. I couldn't tell ya whats on em. If u call promarine tech. They mite b able tell u sumthin

[Chaz]

Keef ,
The pistons you have are .. one step up from the standard.

Their skirt coating is good. No need to do the pin bore area, no thrust load there.

Looks like they did the crown , then did final machining to the top.

I wouldn't look to "lap' the coatings , just tape right up to the other blast and spray.

Might wanna paper and tape around the ring and skirt area ..to protect it from the blasting and coating ... The crown coating is heat reflective , not a dry film lube .. ;)

[HStream1]

I have a question? Is the Skirt coating below the freshly machined Skirt surface? If so Its designed purpose is only 1/2 of what it was intended for.

As far as the Tops. I know exactly what that is. And its worthless as Tits on a Bore HOG!!!. I say that because exactly whats its purpose? The MFG coated the piston and then finished machining. Man It looks COOL and the Customer will be Impressed SMFH!!!

Place some High quality high adhesive tape on the coatings and see if it come off when the tape is yanked off. High Heat 500 deg tape is what I use. If it stays on then the substrate was properly prepped and the coating applied correctly. if not. Start from scratch.


Guys, I had finally got my coating from Techline earlier this week and I was excited this morning to get 'er done. But when I pulled the pistons out of the boxes I found this.............

476265 If you look, you can see that the top is natural, but the deflector and opposite side is different. This is a pro marine piston. So my question is....what is that glossy gray on the top(sides)?

I did spray my adapter, and filler blocks..........but no pics today, I didnt get to cook them yet......just sprayed on and ran out of time. I will bake them monday morning. I cooked them for an hour(at 450) to outgas them before I sprayed them.

[keefallan]

Bud, the skirt machining is covered by their film. The machining goes halfway down to the wristpin bore and then stops. Both you and Chaz confirmed what I thought.........that they coated it(the top) and then finished machining the crown later. And that was my question even though I didnt ask it.........what good is the coating if it leaves 20-30 percent of the crown raw?

So Chaz and Bud, I genuinely thank you for your input. It was what i needed to know. I will check adhesion tomorrow at work and go from there.:thumbsup:

Here's the bigger irony. I have had these pistons since the summer........before I had my block machined. I never pulled 'em out of the box till yesterday when I went to coat them...........DOH!!:nonod: "I tell ya boy, you're about as shop as a bowlin' ball".......Foghorn Leghorn:leaving:

[HStream1]

In looking at the picture it looks like what is shown of the skirt coating has to be below the machined skirt surface. I see what appears to be a 3/16" freshly machined band just under the lower ting land. Then the Freshly machined area down the Wrist pin area, then a 1/8" freshly machined band at the Skirts Base. So Is the Coated Skirt area on Both sides below the machined surfaces?




476265

[keefallan]

In looking at the picture it looks like what is shown of the skirt coating has to be below the machined skirt surface. I see what appears to be a 3/16" freshly machined band just under the lower ting land. Then the Freshly machined area down the Wrist pin area, then a 1/8" freshly machined band at the Skirts Base. So Is the Coated Skirt area on Both sides below the machined surfaces?
Bud, the milling(machining) starts at the top of the piston side and continues halfway down. From there is just raw aluminum.....then they coated it.....1/2 in the ribbed area and 1/2 in the raw aluminum(from the wristpin to the bottom). Make sense to you?

[HStream1]

Milling??? That makes absolutely No sense. The areas im referring to are clearly machined by a lathe. Had the wrist pin areas been machined on a mill they would be flat vs a radius. I dont think youre following my questions. Look atn the Skirt coated area and the Freshly machined areas. Let me put it this way. Is the coated area on the Skirts and the Frshly machined areas on the Skirts on the Same plane? Or is one lower or higher then the other?


Bud, the milling(machining) starts at the top of the piston side and continues halfway down. From there is just raw aluminum.....then they coated it.....1/2 in the ribbed area and 1/2 in the raw aluminum(from the wristpin to the bottom). Make sense to you?

[InjectorService]

Took me a minute to realize what Bud was getting at too. What he wants to know is if the coated areas on the skirt are recessed, or the same height as the rest of the piston.

[HStream1]

Bingo!!! Because they either have a hell of a masker or they use a stencil to tape off the Freshly machined areas. Look at how perfect the coated corners are on the skirts.


Took me a minute to realize what Bud was getting at too. What he wants to know is if the coated areas on the skirt are recessed, or the same height as the rest of the piston.

[keefallan]

Bud, you have to understanding I have actually been milling most of the day.......so it was on my mind when I wrote the blog (as I ran out the door, pressed send and ran out the door kinda thing);)

I Understand Now after re-reading what you were saying. To me, I have a machined portion and a raw aluminum portion on the piston side. The one half has zero machining marks........and that is what made me think the direction I did.....and I took the machining to be the upper half. OH well.

Bud, the coating is higher than the other and they had to use a stencil......aint no way a masker could do it that perfect. Sorry for the mix up.

[InjectorService]

So on that particular piston, it does not look like the coating extends right to the bottom of the skirt either. Would this have a negative affect? I would think that would still be a cylinder wall contact point, no?

[Chaz]

Whos old enough to remember "skirt buttons" .. ???

No , not at the prom ... like these --->

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbo/bullett/bulbenefit/bulpstn_peek2.jpg

Wiseco , JE , Carrillo , CP , Advanced sleeve .. are all under one big tent now .

Wiseco started that " patch coating".. Ain't that cute .. :nonod:

The bridge structure is pretty awesome .. I think Diamond piston started that .

https://blog.wiseco.com/hs-fs/hubfs/Wiseco/TECH/Piston%20Skirt%20Design/wiseco-piston-skirt-30-ps.png?width=280&name=wiseco-piston-skirt-30-ps.png

To Wiseco's defense , they state that their pistons are to be measured minimum .500 up from the bottom and 90* from the pin.
Which tells me that there is quite a bit of "barrel taper" on both the top and bottom of their skirts .. this shot somewhat shows that .

But more importantly , speaks volumes about what Uncle BBQ said about the "quality of the job" . I know that my used pistons , even the ones I tortured , still have permanent remnant's of coating that you can see from across the shop. This slug looks like the coating "wiped right off" leaving an unprepared surface below.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/parts-classifieds/522483d1451149198-434-wiseco-18cc-forged-pistons-lightly-used-piston-8.jpg


After thinking about that crossflow "flathead Ford" :p a bit, and seeing what a fine job they have done ( coated pistons as a whole in the massed produced versions)
If it were me , I'd act like it's "just another nekkid piston" . Prep it the right way , coat it , bake it , and run the *(&^%&**(*( out of it ... ;)

[keefallan]

When did they run skirt buttons Chaz? And for how long?


If I get the chance today, I am gonna blast me a piston or four..........but voting comes first today:thumbsup:

[Chaz]

Flash in the pan .. circa early 1970's . Mostly fuel cars and Harley's .

[XP300]

Unique to say the least.

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