300r vs 300xs on same boat

[Z06man]

MR DUKE from Duke Energy has a new set of 300Rs on his 24 Skater the boat went faster 1st time out with 4 people a load of fuel and a Warren size cooler than it has EVER gone empty with 300XS motors.He is a happy camper I hope I did not spoil his news. I wont post numbers that is up to him .

[Z06man]

No high test needed.

[Ziemer]

Pretty sure Warren was giving some sh!t to the guy going from 400’s to 450’s saying it wouldn’t pick up the mph claimed. ���� Apparently, he’s now a believer of these new V8’s. Lol...

Cant wait to hear the details.

[JPEROG]

I thought that he would be the first 24 with 450s on it until he brings his big boat out. Glad to hear that he is making them work and keeping the economy going like he does.

Joe

[Markus]

I wont post numbers that is up to him .

Warren, it seems like the cat is out of the bag. Please let us know!
<object id="__symantecPKIClientMessenger" data-supports-flavor-configuration="true" data-extension-version="1.0.1" style="display: none;"></object>__PRESENT

[Dd24skater]

subscribed

[capteliminator]

Aww man this is killing me, spill it Warren!! Show us pics too!!

[mikesufka]

We need a report !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

MDS

[JPEROG]

I heard thru the grapevine that its faster then its ever been, (not by tons), but he was only turning 5800 and had a full load as Paul mentioned--an additional 600 rpm with a 35 or 36 wheel and .60 gear is potentially another 12 mph at 5% slip. Its going to be really fast when he gets it right.

Joe

[warren]

Well so far i cant say enough about the 300r./2 start with 300xs never liked my personal feelings some love them . I had nothing but problems so from the start first day out 4 people on the boat 1 guy was 300 lbs im 225 wife was 130 and son was 130 full of fuel call it 100gal a big full cooler 120 first run second run still full of gas and cooler 122 my best ever was 117 and change .will pull some fuel out and the cooler will b going out thursday morning with brent 2 c whats up still turning out and running a through da hub. I think the way it sits has a couple more .then will go 2 turning in and a better set of wheels over da hub.i kept running out of water press.trying 2 do 2 much on a new set up.im excited 2 c where it ends up when all is perfect.stay tuned

[Risco]

Well so far i cant say enough about the 300r./2 start with 300xs never liked my personal feelings some love them . I had nothing but problems so from the start first day out 4 people on the boat 1 guy was 300 lbs im 225 wife was 130 and son was 130 full of fuel call it 100gal a big full cooler 120 first run second run still full of gas and cooler 122 my best ever was 117 and change .will pull some fuel out and the cooler will b going out thursday morning with brent 2 c whats up still turning out and running a through da hub. I think the way it sits has a couple more .then will go 2 turning in and a better set of wheels over da hub.i kept running out of water press.trying 2 do 2 much on a new set up.im excited 2 c where it ends up when all is perfect.stay tuned

Glad to hear the boat runs better. Any other improvements acceleration? How’s does it float ? Hop any worse? As always stay safe out there.

[warren]

Motor weight is like 20 lbs diff.from 300xs. Hop is da same .acceleration is much better.with non airated props 300xs wouldnt get on plane non no problem much more torque as stated from others only makes sense 3.litre to a 4.6 with 2 more cylinders

[kbirdmon]

TORQUE..... LOVE it. thanks for the update. I Want one for class 7 Boat bad.

[Risco]

Motor weight is like 20 lbs diff.from 300xs. Hop is da same .acceleration is much better.with non airated props 300xs wouldnt get on plane non no problem much more torque as stated from others only makes sense 3.litre to a 4.6 with 2 more cylinders

awesome thanks for the response. Glad they are working good.

[Markus]

much more torque as stated from others only makes sense 3.litre to a 4.6

Well, that displacement only works half the time compared to a 2-stroke...<object id="__symantecPKIClientMessenger" data-supports-flavor-configuration="true" data-extension-version="1.0.1" style="display: none;"></object>__PRESENT

[mjw930]

Well, that displacement only works half the time compared to a 2-stroke...<object id="__symantecPKIClientMessenger" data-supports-flavor-configuration="true" data-extension-version="1.0.1" style="display: none;"></object>__PRESENT

While that’s the prevailing argument it’s far too simplistic. Let’s not forget that the 2 stroke does not take advantage of its entire displacement with every power stroke. Once the exhaust and intake ports are opened by the downward piston stroke that cylinder is no longer making power, it’s converting power to the exhaust and intake function. A 4 stroke creates power throughout its entire combustion stroke.

[Chaz]

While that’s the prevailing argument it’s far too simplistic. Let’s not forget that the 2 stroke does not take advantage of its entire displacement with every power stroke. Once the exhaust and intake ports are opened by the downward piston stroke that cylinder is no longer making power, it’s converting power to the exhaust and intake function. A 4 stroke creates power throughout its entire combustion stroke.

A two-stroke has no pumping losses. The dwell time @ BDC and the aprox 60* each side of it are used for cylinder filling.
The only wasted effort is the 30* between the transfer ports closing and the exhaust port closing. Other than that, each mark along the way, either up or down serves a purpose. The party's over by 90 - 100* after TDC so the exhaust port opens.

A four-stroke will open the exhaust between 88-90* ( supercharged or nitrous cam) ATDC and the lamest stock cam @ 110-120 after. Again the party's over. Yet the four stroke has to leave the exhaust valve open around the bottom, 180* up the back side ( this is where they sling the piston off the rod with no load unless it turbocharged) and a few degrees ATDC to create a vacuum during overlap.
80+180+10=270* of wasted motion.
Where they shine is the 10* BTDC IVO 180 of intake stroke and the same 45-60* off of BDC before the valve closes. 10+180+45=235* to fill the chamber as opposed to 120* for the two-stroke.
When you put a degree wheel on both of them and roll em over, you'll be surprised at how close the timing events that matter, are to each other ... :)

Last Sunday, the air was -950 @ Daytona 8:00 am ... say what ya want, that's at least 3-4 MPH fast compared to sea level or the 10 more @ +3500' that's coming this summer. Can't beat Mother Nature ..;)

https://airdensityonline.com/track-history/Daytona_International_Speedway/2020-01-26/

Nice whip ... supa-star, enjoy it !

[mjw930]

That's all great but it's a totally academic discussion, 2 strokes are gone and they aren't coming back. I was simply commenting on the "generic" argument that 2 strokes make more power because they fire on every stroke. While that's true it's not a one to one with regard to displacement and as the two motors here illustrate, there's no replacement for displacement.......

One could wonder that if it weren't for public sentiment could the engineers at any of the companies come up with improved, lighter weight 2 strokes than what they have been able to do with the new 4 strokes? When a 300 HP 4.6L V8 4 stroke weighs 40 lbs less than a 300 HP 3.4L V6 2 stroke and both are considered "state of the art" where's the value in the 2 stroke?

[ect]

F1 is considering 2 stroke engines running on synthetic fuel !

[Chaz]

That's all great but it's a totally academic discussion, 2 strokes are gone and they aren't coming back. I was simply commenting on the "generic" argument that 2 strokes make more power because they fire on every stroke. While that's true it's not a one to one with regard to displacement and as the two motors here illustrate, there's no replacement for displacement.......

If you look , you will see my response to you was only related to your statement
(you said it twice actually) ... >



Let’s not forget that the 2 stroke does not take advantage of its entire displacement with every power stroke.


A 4 stroke creates power throughout its entire combustion stroke. ,

Which as I pointed out ... is not true. And I offered you a way to find out for yourself.

<strike></strike>

One could wonder that if it weren't for public sentiment could the engineers at any of the companies come up with improved, lighter weight 2 strokes than what they have been able to do with the new 4 strokes? When a 300 HP 4.6L V8 4 stroke weighs 40 lbs less than a 300 HP 3.4L V6 2 stroke and both are considered "state of the art" where's the value in the 2 stroke?

As for the rest of it ....
I broke my crystal ball, so I can no longer see into the future. But I would tend to agree that the "woke world" has tossed the ring-ding's to the side. My first clue was when they disappeared for the motorcycle showrooms in the mid-seventies. Honestly, I'm surprised the outboards held out this long. Maybe they were better than many "now" give them credit for. Considering the lack of any real R+D on them. The ignition and fuel injection up to the Opti was a series of archaic hold-me-overs, until the Opti hit the showrooms, and even then, compared to what's really out there, it's a model T.
Two-strokes will always make more power than a four-stroke. By your own admission, a four-stroke has to be half again to twice as big to produce equal power.
Be it moto-cross, road-racing, or even on the outboard showroom floor. Mercury does sell a brand new 3.4L four-stroke. It produces 150 Hp. They had to push their chips in and start fresh if they were going to get the 300+HP crowd to jump ship to the four-stroke. Would you be so enthused if their new big dog turned the pump to 225 HP ... I would guess not.
I do have to laugh a little when I put things in perspective. One of Gordon's carb V-8's on pump gas makes 380 HP on the pump, all day long. The race version, lets just call it 500 ish. Where's the value in a pair of outboards that cost what a duplex in an older neighborhood is worth, and can only muster 300 HP without being force fed.
Kinda lethargic when ya think that they made 2 HP / CI in the mid-sixties with 2 valves and pushrods .. ;)

[Da Bull]

My opinion, I don`t care what you do to that 300R it ain`t ever gonna run with a stock 300 Drag motor in a 1/8th mile drag race where no minimum weight is required.

[warren]

Going out 7.30 am got all the little things fixed will try 2 sets of wheels 15.25 x 35 5 bl through hubbers and 15.25 x 36 5bl hill props over hubbers will b testing with scawd the dawg brent.cant wait 2 c difference on top end from x.s 117.5 was best ever turning in . Know its faster in .but gonna try out tomorrow.IM A 2 STROKE LOVER 280.S ALL THE WAY HATED 300X.S DIDNT WORK 4 ME THESE R.S R JUST GREAT MOTORS

[AZMIDLYF]

Same set back and jack plates as XS combo?

[noli]

.


any pics to share, would love to see the rig!






.

[Markus]

I The ignition and fuel injection up to the Opti was a series of archaic hold-me-overs, until the Opti hit the showrooms, and even then, compared to what's really out there, it's a model T.


The Orbital technology created quite some excitement in the automotive industry, but no-one could make it work well enough, so they went back to four-strokes.

Here is one example:

https://apnews.com/548abcf6270aa0b4fef14f4a5f4ba565


<object id="__symantecPKIClientMessenger" data-supports-flavor-configuration="true" data-extension-version="1.0.1" style="display: none;"></object>__PRESENT

[Markus]

While that’s the prevailing argument it’s far too simplistic. Let’s not forget that the 2 stroke does not take advantage of its entire displacement with every power stroke. Once the exhaust and intake ports are opened by the downward piston stroke that cylinder is no longer making power, it’s converting power to the exhaust and intake function. A 4 stroke creates power throughout its entire combustion stroke.

See Chaz comments below.

In most applications, what practically limits 2 stroke power output is the temperature of the piston crown on the exhaust side.<object id="__symantecPKIClientMessenger" data-supports-flavor-configuration="true" data-extension-version="1.0.1" style="display: none;"></object>__PRESENT

[mjw930]

Sorry guys, I didn’t mean to turn this into an academic discussion of 2 vs. 4 stroke design but I did learn something so it’s all good.

Regardless, for whatever the reason, 2 strokes are done aside from a very small community of racers, enthusiasts and historians. This thread is a perfect example of why. Virtually every instance where the new Mercury V8’s replace the outgoing V6 2 strokes performance has increased. If you distill it down that’s what really matters to the vast majority of consumers.

[JPEROG]

"Regardless, for whatever the reason, 2 strokes are done aside from a very small community of racers, enthusiasts and historians. This thread is a perfect example of why. Virtually every instance where the new Mercury V8’s replace the outgoing V6 2 strokes performance has increased. If you distill it down that’s what really matters to the vast majority of consumers."

The drive ability factor, convenience, no smoke, no noise, all of the torque, stronger case, higher height capability, 87 octane, the list goes on and on. Wait until these motors are out there with all of these benefits and making 400 hp and turning a higher rpm then current. The only guys that won't jump over are the same old schoolers that still think cast iron big blocks with carburetors are fast when in fact we are in an LS world. A lot of the past is cool and I love a bunch of it but its still the past and you will get just that "past" in most cases if you aren't willing to adapt. The only downside to the latest and greatest is $$ and its becoming unattainable for more and more enthusiast as things continue to evolve.

Bottom line is that we need to be thankful that this new product was created and that we are all present to watch it mature. Whether as an owner of them or spectator "this is a great time to be an enthusiast of performance outboards".

Joe

[Chaz]

No need to be sorry, it's an open discussion forum. Beside's the thread's title ... opens the door to a bit of "academia" seeping out ... :cheers:

I certainly don't want to change plugs in my truck because I was stuck in "rush-hour" traffic, and fouled a couple. It's mindless, generic surface transportation that we all take for granted. No pumping of the pedal to keep it from spitting back. No waiting 3-4 minutes for it to warm up before dropping it in gear. Just turn the key and go. I certainly understand the boating market moving in that direction.
Just as I have an "enthusiast" car that has "antique idiosyncrasies"about it, I don't mind being part of the small segment of boaters that has to put up with minor nuances to be a bit different than the "new norm".
I have more than enough 3.0 / 3.2L stuff to last @ least my lifetime. And although I'm probably 10 years late on getting my **** in one pile. I have big-bore piston and sleeve kits. I'm on the final stages of getting rods built that will live @ 8000+ RPM and I was intrigued by seeing a MS-3 ECU sitting in a fish aquarium, that was happy to run a set of injectors and sparkplugs from underwater @ the PRI ( SEMA) show. BTW, you can tune those on the fly with a cell phone .. :)
Like they say, different strokes for different folks. And now you'll have to excuse me, but one of the So. American drivers backed one of the Porsche's into the fence at Sebring or Daytona last week, and crushed one of the headers.
And as my dad beat into my head .. son, go make hey while the sun shines .. :thumbsup:

PS .. having Brent H. just walk around a boat .. is worth @ least 5 mph to the good ... :D

[Chaz]

"Regardless, for whatever the reason, 2 strokes are done aside from a very small community of racers, enthusiasts and historians. This thread is a perfect example of why. Virtually every instance where the new Mercury V8’s replace the outgoing V6 2 strokes performance has increased. If you distill it down that’s what really matters to the vast majority of consumers."

The drive ability factor, convenience, no smoke, no noise, all of the torque, stronger case, higher height capability, 87 octane, the list goes on and on. Wait until these motors are out there with all of these benefits and making 400 hp and turning a higher rpm then current. The only guys that won't jump over are the same old schoolers that still think cast iron big blocks with carburetors are fast when in fact we are in an LS world. A lot of the past is cool and I love a bunch of it but its still the past and you will get just that "past" in most cases if you aren't willing to adapt. The only downside to the latest and greatest is $$ and its becoming unattainable for more and more enthusiast as things continue to evolve.

Bottom line is that we need to be thankful that this new product was created and that we are all present to watch it mature. Whether as an owner of them or spectator "this is a great time to be an enthusiast of performance outboards".

Joe

Well Joe, you make it painfully obvious that you have never plugged a 700 to 900 ci "ALUMINUM BIG BLOCK" into high gear .. with 2 or 3 guns on ... makes a LS look like the starter motor that should be hangin off the side of the block .. ;)

http://donovanengines.com/donovan-engineering-aluminum-big-block/

The thing I like about a drag strip is ..... the scoreboards !
No BS , well if I had this prop , if my aunt was my uncle ... pppffftttt
Nothing is ever finished. It comes down ta two things:
How hard your willing to work... :eek:
And, what you can hang on the board that counts ... :thumbsup:


yea man , I went 220 :rolleyes:

http://www.lowmad.com/images/scoreboard216.jpg

Survey seyz ....

https://ediscovery.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/SurveySays.png

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6652237/1280x720-qqb.0.jpg

[HydroSkreamin]

Last Sunday, the air was -950 @ Daytona 8:00 am ... say what ya want, that's at least 3-4 MPH fast compared to sea level or the 10 more @ +3500' that's coming this summer. Can't beat Mother Nature ..;)

https://airdensityonline.com/track-history/Daytona_International_Speedway/2020-01-26/



While I agree that at 8 AM the mineshaft conditions would have been nice to run in, in fact, when he ran in the afternoon it was the "worst" conditions of the day. In talking with the OP he said they were out running at 3:30 PM.

457535

Will it slow down in summer? We'd be silly to think not. Will it pick up speed without the whole famdamily in it and 1/4 to 1/2 tank of fuel today? Again, we'd be silly to think not.

I can't afford or justify the price of one either, Chaz, but I appreciate the technology and to discount people's accomplishments takes away from their fun, too.

YMMV

[Chaz]

While I agree that at 8 AM the mineshaft conditions would have been nice to run in, in fact, when he ran in the afternoon it was the "worst" conditions of the day. In talking with the OP he said they were out running at 3:30 PM.

457535

Will it slow down in summer? We'd be silly to think not. Will it pick up speed without the whole famdamily in it and 1/4 to 1/2 tank of fuel today? Again, we'd be silly to think not.

I can't afford or justify the price of one either, Chaz, but I appreciate the technology and to discount people's accomplishments takes away from their fun, too.

YMMV

I agree with you 110% on everything .. except :D
I have spent my entire life working on other people's toys.
And out of the 20 or so championship seasons I have been part of, I only drove for five of them. So it would go against my nature to "belittle the efforts of anyone" You won't find that from me on this thread, or any other for that matter.
Now if someone starts a thread .. who did it the best .. this vs that, or makes a technically wrong statement. I can't help it if some get their feathers ruffled to hear the truth. Or my version of it anyway. And if/ when I'm wrong, I have no problem putting my hand in the air to admit I'm wrong, or better yet ... human.
I wish I had someone a keyboard away from learning what I needed to know instead of learning the hard way. Maybe if it came easy, I wouldn't still have the passion for what I do. I'm old enough to where I could sit on the couch and watch cartoons. I've been hurt bad enough to where that was all I could do. So I already know that's not what I want to spend my days doing anytime soon.
You and I could "afford" to get one or a pair of these "technical marvels" if we really wanted it/ them. But you hit the nail on the head when you said "justify" .. besides, Silly me, I just can't see myself going to the dealer to have my oil changed.... ;)

BTW .. should I post pics of the 15" 300R ... LMAO :cheers:

[Turborr]

Hard to be an enthusiast of something that I may never experience or afford. If you could have made it generally affordable 10 years ago, It should be easier to make it even more affordable now. Guess as they say, if you get up from the table....someone else is going to sit down.


"Regardless, for whatever the reason, 2 strokes are done aside from a very small community of racers, enthusiasts and historians. This thread is a perfect example of why. Virtually every instance where the new Mercury V8’s replace the outgoing V6 2 strokes performance has increased. If you distill it down that’s what really matters to the vast majority of consumers."

The drive ability factor, convenience, no smoke, no noise, all of the torque, stronger case, higher height capability, 87 octane, the list goes on and on. Wait until these motors are out there with all of these benefits and making 400 hp and turning a higher rpm then current. The only guys that won't jump over are the same old schoolers that still think cast iron big blocks with carburetors are fast when in fact we are in an LS world. A lot of the past is cool and I love a bunch of it but its still the past and you will get just that "past" in most cases if you aren't willing to adapt. The only downside to the latest and greatest is $$ and its becoming unattainable for more and more enthusiast as things continue to evolve.

Bottom line is that we need to be thankful that this new product was created and that we are all present to watch it mature. Whether as an owner of them or spectator "this is a great time to be an enthusiast of performance outboards".

Joe

[AZMIDLYF]

I agree with you 110% on everything .. except :D
I have spent my entire life working on other people's toys.
And out of the 20 or so championship seasons I have been part of, I only drove for five of them. So it would go against my nature to "belittle the efforts of anyone" You won't find that from me on this thread, or any other for that matter.
Now if someone starts a thread .. who did it the best .. this vs that, or makes a technically wrong statement. I can't help it if some get their feathers ruffled to hear the truth. Or my version of it anyway. And if/ when I'm wrong, I have no problem putting my hand in the air to admit I'm wrong, or better yet ... human.
I wish I had someone a keyboard away from learning what I needed to know instead of learning the hard way. Maybe if it came easy, I wouldn't still have the passion for what I do. I'm old enough to where I could sit on the couch and watch cartoons. I've been hurt bad enough to where that was all I could do. So I already know that's not what I want to spend my days doing anytime soon.
You and I could "afford" to get one or a pair of these "technical marvels" if we really wanted it/ them. But you hit the nail on the head when you said "justify" .. besides, Silly me, I just can't see myself going to the dealer to have my oil changed.... ;)

BTW .. should I post pics of the 15" 300R ... LMAO :cheers:

Now you are being Shifty Shiff like. :D

[mikesufka]

I'd love to have a pair of these on my 28 Skater. Would also love a comparison between a pair of 300X and 300R on the same 28 Skater. Has anyone gone from 300X to the 300R, on any boat ?

MDS

[Chaz]

Now you are being Shifty Shiff like. :D

Mid, now ... my feelings are so hurt ... :rolleyes: :D

I just got off the phone with the whistleblower, he said ....>

https://i.imgur.com/aHPW0Oml.jpg

[Brad Zastrow]

I'd love to have a pair of these on my 28 Skater. Would also love a comparison between a pair of 300X and 300R on the same 28 Skater. Has anyone gone from 300X to the 300R, on any boat ?

MDS

Mike,
Dave Z just bought a Doug Wright 28 with 300R's. We tested it in Florida about a month ago. I have been in Dave's 28 Skater with 300X (now your boat) a number of times. The torque of the 300R is very noticeable as compared to the 300X. The torque is 40% higher I am told. If money is not an issue, a swap is a no brainer. Better top speed, acceleration and easier on gas at cruising speeds. The 300X is an impressive engine ( I have three on my boat) but the bar was raised quite a lot by Mercury Racing for the larger boats. Two 450's would be insane and overkill on a smaller boat such as a 28 Skater.

[Raceman]

I'd like to know what those who have done a swap from something like a 300XS to a 300R or other 300 V8 think of the fuel economy comparison. At the end of the summer I bought a 25' Harris pontoon with a 300 V8. It's got the Verado (electronic) mounting system, steering, shifting, etc and 1.85 gear ratio as opposed to the 1.7? on the 300R. Although I don't have anything to compare it to I'm VERY disappointed or actually shocked at the poor fuel economy. A guy down the lake with a several year old Harris with the old 300 inline 6 supercharged Verado claims to be getting about 5 MPG when cruising, but not sure exactly how he calculates. The boat will run just about dead 50 MPH on GPS at WOT, but assuming the instant fuel flow meter is accurate, anything over 35 MPH and the fuel consumption drops below 2 MPG and at WOT it's more like 1.2 if I remember. This means my 25' Talon with dual 280's is cheaper to ride in at 60 MPH than the Harris is at 40 and I'm actually not sure that our Eliminator with dual 700's burns much more than that if the speeds are kept in the 60 or so MPH range. Probably not a good apples to apples comparison on either but under 2 MPG on a pontoon isn't at all what we were expecting.

[mikesufka]

Big Bad Brad -

I've talked to Dave a few times on the phone since his purchase - he's EXCITED !!!! Can't wait to hear more when he gets some real seat time. He's probably still cleaning that thing after the pull North from Florida in early winter :)

MDS

[capteliminator]

I'd like to know what those who have done a swap from something like a 300XS to a 300R or other 300 V8 think of the fuel economy comparison. At the end of the summer I bought a 25' Harris pontoon with a 300 V8. It's got the Verado (electronic) mounting system, steering, shifting, etc and 1.85 gear ratio as opposed to the 1.7? on the 300R. Although I don't have anything to compare it to I'm VERY disappointed or actually shocked at the poor fuel economy. A guy down the lake with a several year old Harris with the old 300 inline 6 supercharged Verado claims to be getting about 5 MPG when cruising, but not sure exactly how he calculates. The boat will run just about dead 50 MPH on GPS at WOT, but assuming the instant fuel flow meter is accurate, anything over 35 MPH and the fuel consumption drops below 2 MPG and at WOT it's more like 1.2 if I remember. This means my 25' Talon with dual 280's is cheaper to ride in at 60 MPH than the Harris is at 40 and I'm actually not sure that our Eliminator with dual 700's burns much more than that if the speeds are kept in the 60 or so MPH range. Probably not a good apples to apples comparison on either but under 2 MPG on a pontoon isn't at all what we were expecting.

How heavy is you toon?

[Z06man]

That guys toon is not getting 5mpg . I have a 300xs on a 20 Young CC/ Flats boat runs 80 light and it wont get 5 and 300 Verados burn more than xs My twin 300R 28 DW/ Fat Cat did seem to burn more fuel per hour than 300XS but even if it did it was way better and it was regular gas around here that is about 30% cheaper than high test..

[Raceman]

How heavy is you toon?

Google says 4000 lb dry with no engine, so probably in the range of 5000.

[Carlson150XS]

Google says 4000 lb dry with no engine, so probably in the range of 5000.

I have run a series of pontoon boats from one of the most efficient pontoon hull design mfg. The mpg on all of them was horrible compared to regular boat hulls. I have run both 250XS Opti's and 300hp plus Verado's. The Optimax performed better from a mpg standpoint. Rigged right the Opti would run 30mph at 3000rpm while the Verado's would rum 4000rpm to get 30mph on the same hull. Overall pontoon boats are terrible from a fuel cost standpoint. Your way better with a Deckboat hull-

[Instigator]

BRP has a turbocharged 2 stroke sled designed to retain power at high elevations.

850cc @ 4lbs boost makes 165 HPs.
Thats 53 cu in’s fellars.

Or .85 of a liter, or .185 of a 4.6 liter V-8 4 stroke Merc.

So if we left boost at 4 lbs �� and multiplied that puny .85 of a liter X the 5.41 to equal the 4.6 liters of the Merc we’d be at 892.65 HP’s.

So while the new Merc is a way cool motor, it still ain’t a 2 stroke ��

Give a smart O/B guy (Dave Bush, Al Stoker etc) a yr @ BRP, unchained.

And yes, Chrysler and GM both were working on 2 strokes not long ago.
The down side, that I read, was w/the needed EPA crap made it big enough they couldn’t get the hood line as low as they wanted.

[Da Bull]

The only guys that won't jump over are the same old schoolers that still think cast iron big blocks with carburetors are fast when in fact we are in an LS world.

This may be the case in the Auto world but I don`t see many if any LS motors in offshore race boats or cruisers for that matter. Big blocks still have their place. If they ever develop a big block LS type motor then all bets are off.

[Noah Burns]

This may be the case in the Auto world but I don`t see many if any LS motors in offshore race boats or cruisers for that matter. Big blocks still have their place. If they ever develop a big block LS type motor then all bets are off.

The new GM big block is cathedral ported and coil per plug. It went the way of LS technology many years ago. Difference is, big blocks are/were already making such efficient power at every rpm range that the changes weren't as huge of a thing as they were in the LS small block element.

[Chaz]

BRP has a turbocharged 2 stroke sled designed to retain power at high elevations.

850cc @ 4lbs boost makes 165 HPs.
Thats 53 cu in’s fellars.

Or .85 of a liter, or .185 of a 4.6 liter V-8 4 stroke Merc.

So if we left boost at 4 lbs �� and multiplied that puny .85 of a liter X the 5.41 to equal the 4.6 liters of the Merc we’d be at 892.65 HP’s.

So while the new Merc is a way cool motor, it still ain’t a 2 stroke ��

Give a smart O/B guy (Dave Bush, Al Stoker etc) a yr @ BRP, unchained.

And yes, Chrysler and GM both were working on 2 strokes not long ago.
The down side, that I read, was w/the needed EPA crap made it big enough they couldn’t get the hood line as low as they wanted.

Hey G-man, stop using a lil math and common sense to make the 450R look like it's asleep ... :)
With size comes parasitic, thermal and efficiency, loses ... so the "super-sized" 850 might only make 860-870 .. ;)
And yes the EPA thought they were going to go from Bobambi to Hildabeast, so they had their foot on everyone's throat, right up until POTUS Trump came in and said ... YOUR FIRED ! But by then, those who wanted to stay in buiz had already bowed to the Leftard bureaucrats and started building eco-friendly cream puff's. I gotta give Merc credit, they took the lemons and made lemonade. It's not cheap to drink it, they, like everyone else, had to spend a fortune just to keep the doors open, let alone come up with a better mouse trap. They might revisit the two-stroke, but as a pet project maybe. Too much at stake. Down the road, the tards will get back in and devise yet more ways and means to ruin our manufacturing capability. I can't think of anyone at that point, that would invest in anything other than wind-mills and cell-phone batteries ... :(

Bull seyz :


This may be the case in the Auto world but I don`t see many if any LS motors in offshore race boats or cruisers for that matter. Big blocks still have their place. If they ever develop a big block LS type motor then all bets are off.

Noah follows up :


The new GM big block is cathedral ported and coil per plug. It went the way of LS technology many years ago. Difference is, big blocks are/were already making such efficient power at every rpm range that the changes weren't as huge of a thing as they were in the LS small block element.

The LS guys I still do a little work here and there, for, actually prefer the iron block 6.0 or 6.2L based models. The GM aluminum is a bit .. ahh .. weak for any real power. :p
The real LS claim to fame is that they are throwaways. I reckon that's why most guys buy them out of a junkyard, gap the rings and put a chink-nees $99.95 hair dryer on it and go. 40 runs later, they do another one .. :o
Just like anything else .... guys with money will have one built from aftermarket parts. :smiletest:

Big blocks .. all iron ones with 4-bolt mains and square port heads, were missing from the junkyards about the time I graduated high school. :rolleyes:
Between then and today, I bought a tall Bow-Tie iron block from a dealership to build a 598 inch motor. It went 7.30's / 180 for ...... years. Other than that, I didn't even know they build rat motors @ GM anymore .. :nonod:
I would think that if you actually wanted a real one .. the aftermarket is the only place you'll find one that's "up to date". ;)

Watch what this 959" motor does to "King Kong" when Lizzy plugs it in second and high ... LMAO :thumbsup:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3zfK0iCWhA

[engineermike]

BRP has a turbocharged 2 stroke sled designed to retain power at high elevations.

850cc @ 4lbs boost makes 165 HPs.
Thats 53 cu in’s fellars.

Or .85 of a liter, or .185 of a 4.6 liter V-8 4 stroke Merc.

So if we left boost at 4 lbs �� and multiplied that puny .85 of a liter X the 5.41 to equal the 4.6 liters of the Merc we’d be at 892.65 HP’s.

So while the new Merc is a way cool motor, it still ain’t a 2 stroke.

gsxr750 has no turbos and makes 148 hp. That’s 46 cu in’s and it’s a 4-stroke. Is it relevant? About as relevant as that snowmobile I would say.

[Z06man]

If there is a better outboard outboard out there I want to see it for sale . I have some cash left. Not quite CRT money though.

[Instigator]

I give Merc a ton of credit for doing what they did.

Not like the others turning their already engineered/paid for car moter on its head.
IMO, currently available, they are in a league if their own.

But better than a 2 stroke?? Come on.

Apply current, available technology to one and see what you have.

Of course the 4 strokes did dominate motocross.
250cc 4 strokes beat 125cc 2 strokes.
450cc 4 strokes beat 250cc 2 strokes.

But wait, how bout F-1 road racing motorcycles you say??

Correct.
They took leading edge technology 900 cc 4 strokes and beat 30 yr old designed 500cc 2 strokes.

Who would brag about that?

Sorry but I think I’ll sit back and watch.
Not like I’ve got $30K for a new motor anyhow ; )

[Instigator]

Point being that BRP figured out how to make a turbo work and live on a 2 stroke, w/a warranty when no one else has.

As a 2 stroke guy, I find that impressive and like what that may mean to the future.


gsxr750 has no turbos and makes 148 hp. That’s 46 cu in’s and it’s a 4-stroke. Is it relevant? About as relevant as that snowmobile I would say.

[WILDMAN]

I have checked fuel mileage the old fashioned way on 300R and 300XS and 300X by dividing miles by gallons after a fill up. On a 21 Liberator at 4000 RPM, 300xs got 6mpg, 300R got 5 mpg.
Running hard all day, the 300XS got 4mpg and the 300R got 3.3.
The 300X got 3mpg at 4000 and 2mpg running hard

On a twin 25 Liberator, the pair of 300XS at 3500 rpm got 3.7mpg and the 300R got 3.2mpg
Running hard, the 300XS motors got 2.4 and the 300R got 2mpg
300X's got 2.25 at 4000 and 1.5 running hard

Basically, the 300R uses about 15% more fuel than the 300XS.

[engineermike]

..Apply current, available technology to one and see what you have.

You're right about that. Imagine what a 4.6 v8 could do with GDI, 12/1 compression (still 87 octane enabled by the GDI), variable cam timing, variable intake manifold runners, and some knock sensors!

[HydroSkreamin]

Point being that BRP figured out how to make a turbo work and live on a 2 stroke, w/a warranty when no one else has.

As a 2 stroke guy, I find that impressive and like what that may mean to the future.

I’m impressed with the technology and results of the BRP sled too. It also has a $18,500 price tag, MORE than what the turbo’d 4-stroke sleds are. They also only released them to the mountain customers because they don’t want us flatlanders torture testing them and giving them a bad name.

IF BRP would ever cross-breed their technology between sleds/PWC’s/OB they’d have something for Merc performance-wise on the large OB market, but for now the 250 HO and the 300 ETEC are basically the same engine and struggle keeping up with most competitor engines (never ran a Suzuki, can’t speak for that). Maybe 2020 Miami International Boat Show will show us something...

If we want to have fun with math, Merc’s 2.6L 400R (current production/technology) is 158.5 CID (2.524 HP/cube) or 153 HP/L. If they’d apply that technology that they obviously already know how to produce, that would put the 4.6L at 707 HP. Contrary to belief, warranties must mean something to the core customers, otherwise you’d think Merc would be squeezing that new engine like a teenager squeezing a zit. Now think of how many hours a 300R can potentially run on 87 octane!

I’m guessing in the near future we’ll be looking for who has pistons, cams, Stroker kits, CNC programs for heads, and maybe even aftermarket heads. When the “next big thing” comes out you’ll see the prices come down. Until then, I’m going to enjoy watching guys like Wildman, JPerog, Z06Man and now Warren play with these things.

[AZMIDLYF]

457726

Another 24 Skater, XS to R conversion that is getting dialed in.

[AZMIDLYF]

457727

[Trimmed Out15]

Is anyone playing with the cowl on the 300R like they are on the 450R? If so does it make a difference like on the 450?

[powerabout]

Perhaps the lightweight 2 stroke will be the new 150 3 cyl brp and boosted to 200hp?

[Instigator]

Yep.

Reminds me of when the F-1 bikes went to 4 stroke.

The speed of advancement in technology was stunning.
Once rules changed, the tech in the 30 yr old 2 strokes stopped.
More importantly, they went from a race only motor to a modified consumer unit that they could win with Sunday and sell Monday.

W/the new Merc 8, they are doing similar.

Their not building 260’s, 280’s, 300X’s, 300XS’s that mainly only sell to go fast guys.
Look what these things are ending up on!

40’ Formulas!

Makes way more business sense.

Being the group OMC flag waver, I do have to point out OMC had a 3.6 liter V-8 on carburetors making 300 HP’s in 1985 ��


Perhaps the lightweight 2 stroke will be the new 150 3 cyl brp and boosted to 200hp?

[Chaz]

If technology from all sizes, shapes, forms or fashion don't interest you, then .. you're satisfied with where you're at. Not into improving your own game unless someone else does the hard part, and you follow. Or ( I don't understand it ) Ya have better things to do with you're time and energy. Any of which is OK, I reckon.

Wild .. thanks for the honest, accurate fuel numbers ... :thumbsup:

X = ( or replica ) old school 2 stroke, easy to build, easy to fix, not much money for what you get. Horrendous gas mileage, socially unacceptable to the Smythe's, but the Smith and Jones still love em .. For those that worry about fuel mileage, buy a VW jetta or KIA .. :)

XS = an old gal with some make-up and a new dress. A little harder to work on. And so far, no real way to make any more power unless you throw away the "claim to fame" fuel system .. :eek:

R = Just what the Smythe's have been waitin for. Big loaffy NA four stroke. Miss the prop size or set-up. Load a half a dozen of your football player friends and go for a ride, plenty of cubic inches ( 100" more than a 3.0L * ) tends to hide all sins.
I was surprised to hear that it's behind the "eight ball" by 15% on the gas sipper.
But then, it takes fuel to feed sheer size and make power, no matter how efficiently it uses it. :p

* = 97.63 ci For my OCD friends .. :cheers:

1000 ci big blocks = See R ;)

850 cc turbo 2 pokes = Cool tech, lightweight, expensive, prob a little impractical in real life ... :)

GSXR = My kid loves em, fast on the road course. A good run on the showroom to the masses despite the uncomfortable riding position. When they thought they would make a few passes .. (to show the drag racers how it's done) .. Most found out unless they let Mike Brusso or Pee Wee Gleason ride it, they had no idea on how to hold the front end down, or keep it from falling off the 10,000 to 14,000 RPM powerband. None that I remember showed back up twice to finesse it down the incremental's .... That scoreboard makes it where even the man on the moon can see for himself, how good you are .. or aren't. Another, good, hi-tech, small inch, canyon carver for a targeted market. :)
However, a RGV500 or old school GS-1100 - 1150 it aint. :nonod:

9.5 OMC flat top = Capt. Insane-O hate's to work on em. On a Jon boat, you can go in some skinny-azz water. Catch a lot of Snook, and thinkin back .. I can't think of another boat that I banged more ***** on, than that lil POS ... :D

[mjw930]

Let's not forget 87 octane fuel, you don't have to shut the motor down to shift, lower units that don't puke their guts without modified seals, vents, etc.......... Yep, these new fangled 4 strokes are just for the lazy who only want to fill up the tank and go boating, AKA 99.999% of the boating population.

How dare Mercury make motors that are so popular it took over 18 months to catch up on the demand.

[powerabout]

The argument seems be be always skewed comparing todays 4 slug with 20 year old 2 strokes

[Capt.Insane-o]

My only complaints is they are #!$@ing ugly and I hate changing oil...and no15 inch motors.

[WILDMAN]

Yeah! Changing oil every year or two really sucks!

[Capt.Insane-o]

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[motuman]

I have checked fuel mileage the old fashioned way on 300R and 300XS and 300X by dividing miles by gallons after a fill up. On a 21 Liberator at 4000 RPM, 300xs got 6mpg, 300R got 5 mpg.
Running hard all day, the 300XS got 4mpg and the 300R got 3.3.
The 300X got 3mpg at 4000 and 2mpg running hard

On a twin 25 Liberator, the pair of 300XS at 3500 rpm got 3.7mpg and the 300R got 3.2mpg
Running hard, the 300XS motors got 2.4 and the 300R got 2mpg
300X's got 2.25 at 4000 and 1.5 running hard

Basically, the 300R uses about 15% more fuel than the 300XS.

Great post! Thanks for putting up real world data, from a trusted source.

[Noah Burns]

Yep.

Reminds me of when the F-1 bikes went to 4 stroke.

The speed of advancement in technology was stunning.
Once rules changed, the tech in the 30 yr old 2 strokes stopped.
More importantly, they went from a race only motor to a modified consumer unit that they could win with Sunday and sell Monday.


when you say F1 bikes, I assume you mean MotoGP (experimental)... there is NOTHING in common from a MotoGP bike to any consumer bike. Yes they use them as part of their sales programs, but there is nothing on a GP bike that makes its way to a street bike. World Superbike on the other hand maybe, but still not a direct lineage from one to the other, certainly closer tho. WSBK is more like the old nascar, it looks like what you can buy, but certainly isn't the same under the hood.

[powerabout]

Yeah! Changing oil every year or two really sucks!
waste oil and filter goes where?
save the environment buy a 2 stroke..lol

[Chaz]

when you say F1 bikes, I assume you mean MotoGP (experimental)... there is NOTHING in common from a MotoGP bike to any consumer bike. Yes they use them as part of their sales programs, but there is nothing on a GP bike that makes its way to a street bike. World Superbike on the other hand maybe, but still not a direct lineage from one to the other, certainly closer tho. WSBK is more like the old nascar, it looks like what you can buy, but certainly isn't the same under the hood.

The old AMA / WERA "factory superbikes" couldn't hold a candle to you can buy off the showroom ten years later. Let alone what they sell today.
When Eddie Lawson was at Palm Beach in the early 80's , after racing all day, he cleaned up he came back and bracket raced his rent a car. My friend Tommy recognized him, we got a chance to talk with him a bit. Besides the full Rob Muzzi power treatment, those bikes used guessed up stock frames, a loop under the swing arm, lighter wheels, better brakes, and a cherri front fork.
That weekend, there was Lawson, Spencer, and Jimmie Filice. Everyone else was in the way.

https://www.cyclenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/eddie-lawson-4.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3624/3338260791_7f4303c0c9.jpg

They were Sherman tanks compared to what they brought to Daytona just a few years earlier ..

http://seevert-works.ocnk.net/data/seevert-works/product/A2_HQ/1975KR750_DS.jpg

http://www.motosclassicas70.com.br/ago_TZ.jpg


And the "real GP bikes they took to Europe ..



https://i.pinimg.com/236x/3b/82/0c/3b820cc3cd3a0e39627ad274bdedfd23.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/d6/b4/82/d6b4829137e23c404d498801e4a8c4b3.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b0/6e/08/b06e08ea3fb8ef84521e8f45da7680df.jpg

Not everybody could ride them, let alone ride them fast. And that was with 1980's tech ... as it's been said, if they would have been able to continue to march ... ;)

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Suter-SRT-500-Factory-V4-track-bike-06-635x613.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qeRq9pCkkL8/UD77AaWXymI/AAAAAAAAeVg/PzvUMydx_dU/s1600/Honda_NSR500_engine_front_Honda_Collection_Hall.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/68/ff/78/68ff78bc0097d6d268025bc49801fec9--cc-motorcycles-race-engines.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/22/31/5b223104a3798f41d11a92a546fad4c3.jpg

https://dirtbikenews.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/BRC-500-Engine-.jpg

https://cdn1.bikebandit-images.com/blog/images/2017/the-unrideables/two-stroke-v4-exhaust.jpg

No ... no .... now it's a whole different world in which we live ... :rolleyes:

I went to a doctor a few years ago, he saw my Rockingham dragway Nat event shirt. He said, I have a BMW that I take to the Autocross at Moroso. I asked if he had improved since getting involved. He told me of his acomplishments and I said, doc you autta try racing in the Barbor school events. he said .......... :o
Ohh I'd love to, but my wife won't let me ... :nonod:
I thought for a moment, and as nicely as possible , I said Doc, that the *** ist ******* thing I ever heard ... :eek: Never :nonod: say that outside the polo club ever again, or I'm snippin a corner off your man card ... :)

Chaz = thinkin I've heard this way too many times for a High-performance site, and has to run a close second to "My wife won't let me race" :cool: ..... >


Let's not forget 87 octane fuel https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.zA_Z8eBktLwF5i5Fzoe_ggHaHa&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrEzNx_DzlemjEAkE9jCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIyNmkxa3FxBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANmZWRiM2IwNTAzYWFhMDgyY 2U5NWIzMDEzYzhhMTUzNwRncG9zAzIEaXQDYmluZw--/RV=2/RE=1580826623/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2f1.bp.blogspot.com%2f-QidaQhrKm5I%2fWHuU5ioPw4I%2fAAAAAAAATbA%2fNQ_0z3armigroyEu9U5MDYzvgjh3Ym2_wCLcB%2fs1600%2ffingers-in-mouth-to-vomit-emoticon.png/RK=0/RS=UmZZuPXn9sNtRD3yrIfDfSi.yKQ-)https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.RevGue22oFok8Jn3RXh6EAHaGN&pid=Api&P=0&w=195&h=164 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrEzNx_DzlemjEAlE9jCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIyb2ttOHM2BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMyZmI2ZDhiMzU1N2MwZTAxY jg0ZDE5ZGQ5Y2EzODVmMQRncG9zAzYEaXQDYmluZw--/RV=2/RE=1580826623/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.thetruckersreport.com%2ftruckingindustryforum%2fproxy.php%3fimage%3dhttps%3a%25 2F%252Fearthlingsinternational.files.wordpress.com%252F2014%252F04%252Fvomiting-emoticon-design-33108867.jpg%26hash%3d06fee230c9957f929ace253ea35584e7/RK=0/RS=t4pn59gy1rmt1jTUKXatRFvpHPY-)<strike></strike><strike></strike>
(http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrEzNx_DzlemjEAm09jCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIzbjV2MmRoBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMzYjFkYTgzY2VkZmU0NWRlN ThlYjcyZjhiNDM3MDFiMgRncG9zAzEzBGl0A2Jpbmc-/RV=2/RE=1580826623/RO=11/RU=http%3a%2f%2fstatic.skaip.org%2fimg%2femoticons%2f180x180%2ff6fcff%2fpuke.gif/RK=0/RS=Gm2fjz5vYmE9X1RPpFcNBD1NqHw-)

[Instigator]

Thank you Chaz.

That was when it was Formula 1, 250’s were F-2 and 125’s were F-3.

The 500’s we’re right at 200 HPs at the end.

Superbike was bad assss in the same era.

Eddie Lawson was my man.
They called the early Suoerbikes flexi fliers due to their weak frames.

I remember a story in a bike magazine after his retirement, a California motorcycle patrolman saw his garage door open and stopped to BS with Eddie.
Eddie gave the cop a ride on the back of his patrol motorcycle and after the ride had a picture of the cops lower lip bleeding from him biting it after being scared so bad with Eddie at the wheel :-)

F-1 then compared to today......= no wheelie control, no launch control, no ABS, no auto shift, the riders were STUDS!

PS, the pipes in the bottom picture give me wood!


The old AMA / WERA "factory superbikes" couldn't hold a candle to you can buy off the showroom ten years later. Let alone what they sell today.
When Eddie Lawson was at Palm Beach in the early 80's , after racing all day, he cleaned up he came back and bracket raced his rent a car. My friend Tommy recognized him, we got a chance to talk with him a bit. Besides the full Rob Muzzi power treatment, those bikes used guessed up stock frames, a loop under the swing arm, lighter wheels, better brakes, and a cherri front fork.
That weekend, there was Lawson, Spencer, and Jimmie Filice. Everyone else was in the way.

https://www.cyclenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/eddie-lawson-4.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3624/3338260791_7f4303c0c9.jpg

They were Sherman tanks compared to what they brought to Daytona just a few years earlier ..

http://seevert-works.ocnk.net/data/seevert-works/product/A2_HQ/1975KR750_DS.jpg

http://www.motosclassicas70.com.br/ago_TZ.jpg


And the "real GP bikes they took to Europe ..



https://i.pinimg.com/236x/3b/82/0c/3b820cc3cd3a0e39627ad274bdedfd23.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/d6/b4/82/d6b4829137e23c404d498801e4a8c4b3.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b0/6e/08/b06e08ea3fb8ef84521e8f45da7680df.jpg

Not everybody could ride them, let alone ride them fast. And that was with 1980's tech ... as it's been said, if they would have been able to continue to march ... ;)

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Suter-SRT-500-Factory-V4-track-bike-06-635x613.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qeRq9pCkkL8/UD77AaWXymI/AAAAAAAAeVg/PzvUMydx_dU/s1600/Honda_NSR500_engine_front_Honda_Collection_Hall.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/68/ff/78/68ff78bc0097d6d268025bc49801fec9--cc-motorcycles-race-engines.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/22/31/5b223104a3798f41d11a92a546fad4c3.jpg

https://dirtbikenews.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/BRC-500-Engine-.jpg

https://cdn1.bikebandit-images.com/blog/images/2017/the-unrideables/two-stroke-v4-exhaust.jpg

No ... no .... now it's a whole different world in which we live ... :rolleyes:

I went to a doctor a few years ago, he saw my Rockingham dragway Nat event shirt. He said, I have a BMW that I take to the Autocross at Moroso. I asked if he had improved since getting involved. He told me of his acomplishments and I said, doc you autta try racing in the Barbor school events. he said .......... :o
Ohh I'd love to, but my wife won't let me ... :nonod:
I thought for a moment, and as nicely as possible , I said Doc, that the *** ist ******* thing I ever heard ... :eek: Never :nonod: say that outside the polo club ever again, or I'm snippin a corner off your man card ... :)

Chaz = thinkin I've heard this way too many times for a High-performance site, and has to run a close second to "My wife won't let me race" :cool: ..... >


Let's not forget 87 octane fuel https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.zA_Z8eBktLwF5i5Fzoe_ggHaHa&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrEzNx_DzlemjEAkE9jCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIyNmkxa3FxBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANmZWRiM2IwNTAzYWFhMDgyY 2U5NWIzMDEzYzhhMTUzNwRncG9zAzIEaXQDYmluZw--/RV=2/RE=1580826623/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2f1.bp.blogspot.com%2f-QidaQhrKm5I%2fWHuU5ioPw4I%2fAAAAAAAATbA%2fNQ_0z3armigroyEu9U5MDYzvgjh3Ym2_wCLcB%2fs1600%2ffingers-in-mouth-to-vomit-emoticon.png/RK=0/RS=UmZZuPXn9sNtRD3yrIfDfSi.yKQ-)https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.RevGue22oFok8Jn3RXh6EAHaGN&pid=Api&P=0&w=195&h=164 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrEzNx_DzlemjEAlE9jCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIyb2ttOHM2BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMyZmI2ZDhiMzU1N2MwZTAxY jg0ZDE5ZGQ5Y2EzODVmMQRncG9zAzYEaXQDYmluZw--/RV=2/RE=1580826623/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.thetruckersreport.com%2ftruckingindustryforum%2fproxy.php%3fimage%3dhttps%3a%25 2F%252Fearthlingsinternational.files.wordpress.com%252F2014%252F04%252Fvomiting-emoticon-design-33108867.jpg%26hash%3d06fee230c9957f929ace253ea35584e7/RK=0/RS=t4pn59gy1rmt1jTUKXatRFvpHPY-)
<strike></strike><strike></strike>
(http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrEzNx_DzlemjEAm09jCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIzbjV2MmRoBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMzYjFkYTgzY2VkZmU0NWRlN ThlYjcyZjhiNDM3MDFiMgRncG9zAzEzBGl0A2Jpbmc-/RV=2/RE=1580826623/RO=11/RU=http%3a%2f%2fstatic.skaip.org%2fimg%2femoticons%2f180x180%2ff6fcff%2fpuke.gif/RK=0/RS=Gm2fjz5vYmE9X1RPpFcNBD1NqHw-)

[WILDMAN]

Now we have a motorcycle website?

[JPEROG]

This is off course but worth noting. I recently learned that Eddie Lawson has a twin outboard cat at Havasu. It would be great to hear some of the stories from his perspective while chilling at a sandbar some day.

Comparing the engine output of something with a narrow powerband "which will never work in a direct drive outboard application" is not relevant but those bikes are super cool and a RZ 500 is still on my bucket list.

Joe

[Instigator]

Had a 28’ Eliminator w/twin V-8 OMCs in the ‘80’s.


This is off course but worth noting. I recently learned that Eddie Lawson has a twin outboard cat at Havasu. It would be great to hear some of the stories from his perspective while chilling at a sandbar some day.

Joe

[JPEROG]

Had a 28’ Eliminator w/twin V-8 OMCs in the ‘80’s.

23' with yamahas now-

Joe

[Chaz]

Now we have a motorcycle website?

If that's how you look at it, that's all you'll see. I see it as a time @ the peak of two-stroke development. Racing programs from both Europeans and Japanese manufacturers fueled by the desire to win is what pushed the development.
Merc and OMC each pushed outboard development into the 1950's by then, and basically stayed there. So if we want to see two strokes .. thats where we have to look.:)

The "new" V-8's .. it has a Keith Duckworth head, bucket tappets, but more important the crank trigger eye had millions spent on it so it doesn't whistle when the flywheel goes "wizzzzin by" ... :rolleyes:
Wanna know how many people have came to me and said .. Charlie please put this 4 stroke outboard head on the windmill and see if you can get it to blow some better numbers, put some bigger valves in. Have a cam ground for me, find springs to match .... Zero :nonod: So when we want to see 4 stroke stuff, were going to need to post car motors .. Hope that won't offend you as well .. :cool:

I can't count high enough to list the ones that brought me heads and say .. Can you fix this big hole that rotted out between the water jacket and the ... intake port, combustion chamber .. etc. Mind you, I'm not complaining .. just stating, that I see first hand what a few years in the "acid" does to a powerhead ... :thumbsup:

JP .. If the kneel down boat guys put the head pipe of a chamber on a slider in the 70's (maybe even before that) .. I'm sure that someone would have come up with a lil sumptin to get a bit more nutz off the bottom by now ... ;)

[Chaz]

1917 Napier Lion .... twin-sticks and buckets .. :smiletest:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Napier_Lion_cambox.jpg

[Da Bull]

Comparing the engine output of something with a narrow powerband "which will never work in a direct drive outboard application" is not relevant but those bikes are super cool and a RZ 500 is still on my bucket list.[/LEFT]]


You are so right. They have tried four strokes in F-1 tunnel boats but not competitive at this time. I think it was Hyabusa Technology they used. I saw a video on YouTube. Funny thing was that during the vid of it on the water running around the track there were also a few Merc two strokes running to but they never lined up with any. I thought they might just to see how far off they were. I would have.

[Instigator]

Chaz, the 4 stroke guys started talking about hot rodded 4 strokes 20 yrs ago.

Since then? Crickets.....

[powerabout]

Comparing the engine output of something with a narrow powerband "which will never work in a direct drive outboard application" is not relevant but those bikes are super cool and a RZ 500 is still on my bucket list.[/LEFT]]


You are so right. They have tried four strokes in F-1 tunnel boats but not competitive at this time. I think it was Hyabusa Technology they used. I saw a video on YouTube. Funny thing was that during the vid of it on the water running around the track there were also a few Merc two strokes running to but they never lined up with any. I thought they might just to see how far off they were. I would have.

They did line up and the 2 strokes left them for dead and met them at the end of the main straight as they lapped them, as the 4 slugs were almost on the plane.
No surprise with a high strung motorbike engine.
They should of used a 7 marine...lol
Or just bring back KT's

[Chaz]

Chaz, the 4 stroke guys started talking about hot rodded 4 strokes 20 yrs ago.

Since then? Crickets.....

20 years, they're the lucky ones ... :eek:
Some have waited since 1905 for the LS on a stick .. ;) :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-valve

No mention of Merc's version .. must not be "revolutionary" enough to warrant an update .. :rolleyes:


Boats[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Multi-valve&action=edit&section=16)]


In 1905 car builder Delahaye (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delahaye) had experimented with a DOHC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOHC) marine racing engine with six valves per cylinder. This Delahaye Titan engine was a massive 5190 cid (85.0-liter) four-cylinder that produced 350 bhp (0.07 bhp/cid). It allowed the motor boat Le Dubonnet piloted by Emile Dubonnet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emile_Dubonnet) to set a new world's speed record on water, reaching 33.80 mph (54.40 km/h) on the lake at Juvisy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juvisy), near Paris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris), France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France).[34] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-valve#cite_note-34)
An example of modern multi-valve engines for small boats is the Volvo Penta IPS Series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Penta). These joystick-operated seawater-cooled inboard diesel engines use combined charging (turbo and supercharger, except IPS450) with aftercooler, common rail fuel injection and DOHCs with hydraulic 4-valve technology. Propshaft power ranges from 248 to 850 bhp (185 to 634 kW; 251 to 862 PS) (highest efficiency 59.7 kW/liter for IPS400 3.7-liter straight-4 diesel). Multiple units can be combined.

[JPEROG]

Lets see what next season brings for F1 "times are changing"..... Also remember that the mercury QC4 1350, 1550, 1650, and 1750 can be seen running poker runs and races all over the country and making it back to port at a much higher percentage of the time Vs. others who try to compete--point being that they have the resources to do what ever they want for output on the 4.6. Two of the limiting factors are: 1. The hull weight of which they are being bolted to "lightweight cats, 6 or 7 hundred horsepower, 140+ mph, and a guy with little experience that has a big wallet will equal death". 2. They are E.P.A. compliant and need to remain that way for a large percentage of their product line "the squeeze isn't worth the juice for them to deal with govt. regs.".

Joe

[Instigator]

The AMA is in our town and one of its officers confided in me that in his opinion, 4 strokes were the worst thing to ever happen to Motocross.(A SVC mgr in Fla told me same about PWCs)

Said when they pop one, only the wealthy can afford to rebuild it compared to the 2 strokes.

Stick a 2 stroke and, a lil Muratic acid, a set of rings, done in the back of your van and your back on the track for your next heat/moto.
Said those days, and teams are gone.

The pits are now full off $500K toy haulers.
Low budget, love of the sport teams, are gone.

The Fla PWC mgr told me they had 3 popped 4 stroke skis, just out of warranty, that the customers are walking away from their loan because they refuse pay $4500 to rebuild s ski worth $3500.


20 years, they're the lucky ones ... :eek:
Some have waited since 1905 for the LS on a stick .. ;) :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-valve

No mention of Merc's version .. must not be "revolutionary" enough to warrant an update .. :rolleyes:

[XP300]

Usually don't post and use SnF for Information and there is plenty of good in it.
Some of the Pics in this particular section are way cool to say the least.
This is going to be a Pepsi and Coke conversation for some time to Come.
Have first hand experience with Both Boosted 2 and 4 strokes in the Power toboggan industry.
No denying the new production boosted 2 stroke from BRP is a work of art in the Mountain Sled.
The same can be said for there Boosted 4 strokes in the Sled and Side By Side industry.
Once taken into account what the End Result goal really is determines what will be necessary to get the Job Done.
The boosted 2 stroke works awesome going up the side of a mountain because of its weight advantage in a sled
The Boosted 4 stroke in a sled at sea level is second to none for a choice, produces a rate of acceleration
of 10 mph per second for the first 10 seconds pretty easily rolling off the show floor.
How does all this relate to the previous Posts.... no idea its all personal preference.
Change and Technology are going to happen and at more accelerated rate than previous,
along with the appropriate Price.
Enjoy Your Personal preference and best of Luck running the Competition.

[Chaz]

Lets see what next season brings for F1 "times are changing"..... Also remember that the mercury QC4 1350, 1550, 1650, and 1750 can be seen running poker runs and races all over the country and making it back to port at a much higher percentage of the time Vs. others who try to compete--point being that they have the resources to do what ever they want for output on the 4.6. Two of the limiting factors are: 1. The hull weight of which they are being bolted to "lightweight cats, 6 or 7 hundred horsepower, 140+ mph, and a guy with little experience that has a big wallet will equal death". 2. They are E.P.A. compliant and need to remain that way for a large percentage of their product line "the squeeze isn't worth the juice for them to deal with govt. regs.".

Joe

How long were the Mercruiser's "just iron Big Chevies" .. :)
Then when they reinvented the wheel, well actually, they followed what Chief in Ft. Lauderdale did as far as the turbo part went. The rest looks like either Thunderheads or some of the early Feuling stuff .. ;)

https://feulingparts.com/aboutus.php

http://www.valleyhead.com/thunder.html



XP300

Usually don't post and use SnF for Information and there is plenty of good in it.
Some of the Pics in this particular section are way cool to say the least.
This is going to be a Pepsi and Coke conversation for some time to Come.
Have first hand experience with Both Boosted 2 and 4 strokes in the Power toboggan industry.
No denying the new production boosted 2 stroke from BRP is a work of art in the Mountain Sled.
The same can be said for there Boosted 4 strokes in the Sled and Side By Side industry.
Once taken into account what the End Result goal really is determines what will be necessary to get the Job Done.
The boosted 2 stroke works awesome going up the side of a mountain because of its weight advantage in a sled
The Boosted 4 stroke in a sled at sea level is second to none for a choice, produces a rate of acceleration
of 10 mph per second for the first 10 seconds pretty easily rolling off the show floor.
How does all this relate to the previous Posts.... no idea its all personal preference.
Change and Technology are going to happen and at more accelerated rate than previous,
along with the appropriate Price.
Enjoy Your Personal preference and best of Luck running the Competition.

We all been friends for a couple of decades ... We just throwin the ball around till someone steps up to the mike and report back on how it went a couple weeks ago down @ Canal X So. :cheers:

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.nEm8_HbB6sLnjHmND1XnmwHaEK&pid=Api&P=0&w=324&h=183 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrExo_5ETteGicAuB9jCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIzdnJpaG04BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANjZDBhZDRlYzA0NmZlMGI5Y jM1NDFkYTAzMjEwNDRiNQRncG9zAzIzBGl0A2Jpbmc-/RV=2/RE=1580958329/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2fcdn.newspunch.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2019%2f06%2fPelosi-trump-prison-678x381.jpg/RK=0/RS=xpmn6dhPE5jxu_QL_cknvtK3.jU-)


<strike></strike>

<strike></strike>

[Dave S]

Chazzzz.... Why do ya have to ruin a good thread with ....That.... next thing be OBAMMKISSING THE HIIL BEAST....She looks like on the bowel....that napier is neat.....

[powerabout]

How long were the Mercruiser's "just iron Big Chevies" .. :)
Then when they reinvented the wheel, well actually, they followed what Chief in Ft. Lauderdale did as far as the turbo part went. The rest looks like either Thunderheads or some of the early Feuling stuff .. ;)

https://feulingparts.com/aboutus.php

http://www.valleyhead.com/thunder.html







<strike></strike>

<strike></strike>

are those heads from John Batten ( spelling?)

[JPEROG]

Usually don't post and use SnF for Information and there is plenty of good in it.
Some of the Pics in this particular section are way cool to say the least.
This is going to be a Pepsi and Coke conversation for some time to Come.
Have first hand experience with Both Boosted 2 and 4 strokes in the Power toboggan industry.
No denying the new production boosted 2 stroke from BRP is a work of art in the Mountain Sled.
The same can be said for there Boosted 4 strokes in the Sled and Side By Side industry.
Once taken into account what the End Result goal really is determines what will be necessary to get the Job Done.
The boosted 2 stroke works awesome going up the side of a mountain because of its weight advantage in a sled
The Boosted 4 stroke in a sled at sea level is second to none for a choice, produces a rate of acceleration
of 10 mph per second for the first 10 seconds pretty easily rolling off the show floor.
How does all this relate to the previous Posts.... no idea its all personal preference.
Change and Technology are going to happen and at more accelerated rate than previous,
along with the appropriate Price.
Enjoy Your Personal preference and best of Luck running the Competition.


After having a 998 turbo triple sled with some tuning and minor add-ons from Jason Price, I would never consider going back to the big bore two strokes that we ran for 15 years. I can remember getting my first watercraft cylinder motor from Rob Shooping "HTG" in my polaris days, then John Hoopers stuff came into play when I went green, then Jeff Simons built my RX1 and thinking there would never be anything better-but there is. I feel the same way about the new 4 stroke 4.6 platform but I am not in a financial position to replace the power on everything at once along with the fact that there are still better things to come.

Cool to hear that you pay attention on this site for feedback-

Joe

[powerabout]

Will there be a limit to how powerful an outboard the market can deal with?
2-1000hp outboard?
1000-2500 inboard?

[JPEROG]

Then when they reinvented the wheel, well actually, they followed what Chief in Ft. Lauderdale did as far as the turbo part went. The rest looks like either Thunderheads or some of the early Feuling stuff ..

I had a set of fuelings 4V heads on a bike and wanted to buy a triple cyl. motor but it wouldn't fit in a stock frame. A guy like yourself that has the welding ability to make any modifications imaginable could have one badass bagger. As for Tommy and the turbos, you don't see them making many runs for what ever reason and racing has lots of them in service. I was in Rick Bowlings boat last year and the clock on his 1350s were at 160 hours and had not been touched "pretty impressive".

Joe

[JPEROG]

Will there be a limit to how powerful an outboard the market can deal with?
2-1000hp outboard?
1000-2500 inboard?

Insurance companies will have a play in the limit "most guys that have a rig with this type of power have a net worth that needs to be protected". A friend has been shopping for insurance rates on a new boat that he is building and once you exceed 120 m.p.h. capability, the opportunities for coverage become very limited and very expensive. The rates for a 32 cat with 300s Vs 450s is almost triple due to the speed threshold.

Joe

[baja200merk]

I stopped by one of the best 2-stroke merc shops in the us if not the world. It’s right down the road. While talking about the new v8 merc (before they were unveiled) vs 2-strokes The owner said “both of my brp Seadoo 4-tec have 330hp 1.8l and 5yr warranty, apply that to the big block and it should make 700hp”. This was YEARS AGO.... :leaving:

If I had rotax in my back pocket 2-stroke would be out the window.

[engineermike]

After having a 998 turbo triple sled with some tuning and minor add-ons from Jason Price, I would never consider going back to the big bore two strokes that we ran for 15 years...

Ive owned, modified, blown up, and rebuilt 2-stroke and 4-stroke PWC’s. Give me the 4-stroke any day. I still have a rock-solid reliable 2011 Yamaha 4-stroke to this day that’s only ever needed battery, oil, and spark plug changes.

[Chaz]

Car motors are meant for cars .. and boat motors are mean for boats ... ;)

Sometimes it's just that simple .. :D

[Dave S]

I don't have $$$ for the stuff.......now selling..... but I didn't have it back.... when 1974.......but I had Funn.....so keep ya ....$25000 MOTORS WHILE I enjoy a cheep ride.....2.4... small boat..... Funn.....have we forgotten????? 25000 usta buy a house in bellmore LI......Just shown my adge.... hee hee

[JPEROG]

The above post is 100% correct (the latest technology is expensive and it not required to be on the water and having fun)--but if we are back to comparisons of what is available then--

The way I see it is this. 1. If you are drag racing, you need a high twister and 25 year old tech (300 drag) and several variations of it still work great - No one can debate that. 2. If you can not afford to switch over to the new technology, (I fall in this group as well), then its not an option to experience new technology first hand. However, the little bit of exposure that I have had creates a real desire to change. 3. Otherwise, you need to support these sites as well: https://aomci.org/ because the outboard world isn't going backwards from here and the consumer demand for the new product validates that statement 100%.

It can't get any more simple then that--

Joe

[Chaz]

Confucious say : crow on wire always attracted to new shiny object on ground .. :D

[Dave S]

Dave says..... crow better not touch other wire......

[Raceman]

Confucious say : crow on wire always attracted to new shiny object on ground .. :D

Raceman say: Crow touch two wires end up being smoking object on ground.

[Chaz]

I put a new bird feeder in the backyard for da Mrs. Couple days later, the lights went out. FPL wrapped a new fuse and swung it back in place. Next morning I saw a flash and something fall ... went over and looked , BBQ squirrel on the ground. They were coming to the new restaurant in town from, across the roof-tops, along the fence lines, and from across the street along the wire, over the transformer and "BOOM" another fuse ... :eek:
I moved the feeder to her island flower garden in the front. Now all they gotta worry about is the hawk that patrols the hood ... :rolleyes:

Aye .. anybody gotz a light ..???
I gotta finish my break and get back to work ... Bait shop's payin a penny a piece for #1 worms. I been lookin @ this new 300R an I gotta get one :nonod: before they are eligible for the antique outboard motor club ..:D

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cb/82/ae/cb82ae816ce2844d93ad7cea70ea8ef2.jpg

[Dave S]

AMOC......I dropet it out my favvvs....tooo many sellers of scottowerof power.....all selling old chit.....no loopers and twisters.....wondere why.....maybe that stuff is..... rare....like I my steak....

[Dave S]

Race Man....Ya gonnna sell me a #8........with down housing? T4

[Raceman]

At this point would probably only want to sell a complete engine. I've got more powerheads than other T4 stuff.

[Dave S]

HeeHee..So.... lets Dance......RM.... DAs.... lethego.......

[Dave S]

Not tellin.... RM... the stupid site.....JME....

[powerabout]

carby engines still selling well in asia as thats the market under 150hp which is 90% of it

[mikesufka]

Wait until Big Dave gets a chance to play with his DW28 / 300R combo for a summer and gives us some top speed numbers and impressions !!!!

MDS

[baja200merk]

Wait until Big Dave gets a chance to play with his DW28 / 300R combo for a summer and gives us some top speed numbers and impressions !!!!

MDS
Pauls been playing with his and it’s already well into the 120s with a normal load. It’s so fast He text me the other day saying he’s starting to think his twister/300x is his safer boat :eek:

[JPEROG]

Pauls been playing with his and it’s already well into the 120s with a normal load. It’s so fast He text me the other day saying he’s starting to think his twister/300x is his safer boat :eek:

Kev,

This is the same boat. Paul sold it to Dave and its in IL. waiting for sunshine... Propellers are a big part of the puzzle for the torque and gear case of a 300R.

Joe

[Instigator]

Stopped in the magazine isle of the grocery store today and front page/cover of the two Moto Cross mags they carry is all two stroke.

Interesting considering the 4 strokes revolutionized/rescued that sport too, 10 yrs ago ��

[Chaz]

Stopped in the magazine isle of the grocery store today and front page/cover of the two Moto Cross mags they carry is all two stroke.

Interesting considering the 4 strokes revolutionized/rescued that sport too, 10 yrs ago ��

Eight years of BoBumbling along followed by the promise of an obese oinker, everyone that wanted to stay in business pushed their chips in towards the "four stroke swing" knowing they would be next if they didn't ... :eek:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsds8Vk3-XA

After this country's savior stepped up and sent her to the pig farm .. he had a few zealots to broom to the curb before he could move on. Has done a great job considering all of the homocrats that have stood in the way.
Since the cloud of death has past by .. at least for the mean time, the motocross industry was quick to get back to race bikes instead of the oinker agenda ..
As far as boats , and four strokes .. it's all the power , gear case and props fault why they don't run like the five litre's that they are ..... ;)

http://thenewsflasher.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/trump-not-guilty.jpg

[Instigator]

When they brought the 4 strokes into F-1 road racing, King Kenny called them diesels ��



Eight years of BoBumbling along followed by the promise of an obese oinker, everyone that wanted to stay in business pushed their chips in towards the "four stroke swing" knowing they would be next if they didn't ... :eek:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsds8Vk3-XA

After this country's savior stepped up and sent her to the pig farm .. he had a few zealots to broom to the curb before he could move on. Has done a great job considering all of the homocrats that have stood in the way.
Since the cloud of death has past by .. at least for the mean time, the motocross industry was quick to get back to race bikes instead of the oinker agenda ..
As far as boats , and four strokes .. it's all the power , gear case and props fault why they don't run like the five litre's that they are ..... ;)

http://thenewsflasher.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/trump-not-guilty.jpg

[Chaz]

When they brought the 4 strokes into F-1 road racing, King Kenny called them diesels 😂

Before leaving for Europe to dominate the world in 1978, he lapped the entire field at the Daytona 200 on a 500cc square four. (0W69)
When he came home in 1983 he won it again on what was the peak of 2 stroke development ( YZR500 that was 680 cc for Daytona ;) ) It took another year for the chassis to catch up with the power when he won his third 200.
After that, it was .... the diesels :(

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VKvoh8i2YIk/hqdefault.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1f/e1/04/1fe104fb426a97d265d90dd3d9de2ccc.jpg

The 1975 Indy mile is still one of my all-time favorites ... :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpsZ_AUFbX4

As it relates to boats ... ;)

If the 2.5 Merc makes 260 / 280

And a 3.0L makes 330

Shouldn't a 4.6 make 480 / 500 ???

And the one with a whistle on it make 630 / 650 ???

Just axein for a friend ... :cheers:

[baja200merk]

Word on the street is they already made almost 800hp from the 4.6 :leaving:

in 08 at jasper dave had a guy from Yamaha racing there he said If u started from scratch and made a 3300cc 2 stroke v6 it should make 700hp.

[Chaz]

Word on the street is they already made almost 800hp from the 4.6 :leaving:

in 08 at jasper dave had a guy from Yamaha racing there he said If u started from scratch and made a 3300cc 2 stroke v6 it should make 700hp.

I was goin easy one em ... ;)

I think we talked about the same time .. and I said : If there was a feasible way to put chambers on an outboard ... it would make 900 HP :)

But as Walter Kaden said in the 1950's .. You know the pipe is getting to be the right size, when the bike no longer has any ground clearance ... :o

[Instigator]

I ran sliding pipes when I ran kneel down.
They do work ����*☠️��

The dirt bike mag I just read did a story on hot rod 500 2 strokes.
They built a KX500 that made 72 HP’d at the back wheel!
Id call that 80 at the crank.
Said it’d destroy any of the 450 Diesel works bikes.

Interestingly to me, the 500 dirt bikes are lower R’s than the smaller bikes and have similar porting to our V-6’s.
80 HP x 6 (cylinders) = 480 HP @ 3 liters, or 180 cu ins. (Naturally aspirated)
3 liters x 1.5 = 4.5 liters and 720 HP’s.
Yeah, 2 strokes suck.

Back in the ‘80’s there was a new road racing class (WERA) that was basically a unlimited rules class.
1100cc 4 stroke displacement and forced induction allowed.
Kenny laughed and said he could beat em w/his 250 class riders.

His 250ccc team beat them on the short tracks but not the long ones.
Kenny paid go to make the F-2 250’s into 400’’s and beat them on all but the longest tracks.

He then sent his (when he had his own teams) 500cc team and they destroyed the open class Diesel bikes and that was that.

People can talk all they want.


I was goin easy one em ... ;)

I think we talked about the same time .. and I said : If there was a feasible way to put chambers on an outboard ... it would make 900 HP :)

But as Walter Kaden said in the 1950's .. You know the pipe is getting to be the right size, when the bike no longer has any ground clearance ... :o

[Instigator]

After Kenny flat tracked the TZ750, he famously said they didn’t pay him enough to ride that thing.


Before leaving for Europe to dominate the world in 1978, he lapped the entire field at the Daytona 200 on a 500cc square four. (0W69)
When he came home in 1983 he won it again on what was the peak of 2 stroke development ( YZR500 that was 680 cc for Daytona ;) ) It took another year for the chassis to catch up with the power when he won his third 200.
After that, it was .... the diesels :(

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VKvoh8i2YIk/hqdefault.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1f/e1/04/1fe104fb426a97d265d90dd3d9de2ccc.jpg

The 1975 Indy mile is still one of my all-time favorites ... :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpsZ_AUFbX4

As it relates to boats ... ;)

If the 2.5 Merc makes 260 / 280

And a 3.0L makes 330

Shouldn't a 4.6 make 480 / 500 ???

And the one with a whistle on it make 630 / 650 ???

Just axein for a friend ... :cheers:

[Chaz]

I ran sliding pipes when I ran kneel down.
They do work 🏁🏴*☠️🌴

The dirt bike mag I just read did a story on hot rod 500 2 strokes.
They built a KX500 that made 72 HP’d at the back wheel!
Id call that 80 at the crank.
Said it’d destroy any of the 450 Diesel works bikes.

Interestingly to me, the 500 dirt bikes are lower R’s than the smaller bikes and have similar porting to our V-6’s.
80 HP x 6 (cylinders) = 480 HP @ 3 liters, or 180 cu ins. (Naturally aspirated)
3 liters x 1.5 = 4.5 liters and 720 HP’s.
Yeah, 2 strokes suck.

Back in the ‘80’s there was a new road racing class (WERA) that was basically a unlimited rules class.
1100cc 4 stroke displacement and forced induction allowed.
Kenny laughed and said he could beat em w/his 250 class riders.

His 250ccc team beat them on the short tracks but not the long ones.
Kenny paid go to make the F-2 250’s into 400’’s and beat them on all but the longest tracks.

He then sent his (when he had his own teams) 500cc team and they destroyed the open class Diesel bikes and that was that.

People can talk all they want.

Seems like if ya don't have sliders, all ya have a is great spectator seat ... :eek: :)

Our OMC guru buddy say's .. they got Brigg's + Stratton porting, all you can do is sleeve em out ... BIG ;)

hey btw .. didn't you walk in there with a set of calipers ... :cheers:

That was great story you told at lunch that day ... :thumbsup:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Aa_ZPuQrs

[Instigator]

Never got mic’s past his metal detector.

Story at lunch???
I have no recollection of that story.
But...., I do know things.

On the sliding expansion chambers, we “pull em” (shortening their tuned length) when we come out of the turns.
If you watch close, you will see the rooster tails lay down when that happens. More proof of their effect.


Seems like if ya don't have sliders, all ya have a is great spectator seat ... :eek: :)

Our OMC guru buddy say's .. they got Brigg's + Stratton porting, all you can do is sleeve em out ... BIG ;)

hey btw .. didn't you walk in there with a set of calipers ... :cheers:

That was great story you told at lunch that day ... :thumbsup:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Aa_ZPuQrs

[Chaz]

Never got mic’s past his metal detector.

Story at lunch???
I have no recollection of that story.


That was the story ... It was pretty funny ... Live :thumbsup:

[HydroSkreamin]

OK...back our regularly scheduled program...

Z06Man texted me that the 24 Skater made 2 back to back passes at 122.5 with 2 guys and 3/4 tank of fuel with a 35 DeWald thru hub out of rpm. It’ll be interesting if he gets a Cleaver-style prop on it.

Nice work so far, fellas.

[Chaz]

OK...back our regularly scheduled program...

Z06Man texted me that the 24 Skater made 2 back to back passes at 122.5 with 2 guys and 3/4 tank of fuel with a 35 DeWald thru hub out of rpm. It’ll be interesting if he gets a Cleaver-style prop on it.

Nice work so far, fellas.

How fast did Tom Kennady go @ LOTTO with his 24' and 3.0L motors ? (baseline)

How much faster should another 1600 cc (300R) get ya ?

How much faster should another 1600 cc (450R) and a screw blower be ?

Valid questions about hardware, not people. So let's keep emotion out of the equation and stick with facts ... :cheers:

[JPEROG]

It will be the fastest 24 to date when they have it dialed in. This does show you just how well Tom Kennedy had his 24 with X motors perfected to run mid 20s "but it wasn't with two people and 400+ pounds of fuel"--The 4.6 will continue to impress people but propellers are a key factor that many are not used to dealing with yet. Remember that this is a de-tuned version compared to a 300X (add another 500 to the limiter, give it another 3 points of squeeze to run on 93 octane, port the head castings, add variable valve timing) all things that would bring it to the "tweak" level of a 300X and we will see things continue to spread out.

I am very confident that my DW 28 will run 130 before I am done with it (stock 300R motors). As for wanting to hang another another 300 lbs. (or being able to afford to) for the 450s- Its not feasible nor can afford to but based on the results that have been proven with the DW32 and DW36, there is another 7 mph in the picture (above the 400R) 12 mph (above the 300R) and bunch of acceleration. Myrick (performance boat center) clicked off a 133 pass last week in a new 36 and hasn't modified anything on the hull for pick up ramps yet. I think we will see 140 mph outboard pleasure cats (a scary thought) in the near future as predicted when these motors first came about (there is still a lot of untapped opportunity with this platform).



Joe

[mjw930]

It will be the fastest 24 to date when they have it dialed in. This does show you just how well Tom Kennedy had his 24 with X motors perfected to run mid 20s "but it wasn't with two people and 400+ pounds of fuel"--The 4.6 will continue to impress people but propellers are a key factor that many are not used to dealing with yet.

I am very confident that my DW 28 will run 130 before I am done with it. As for wanting to hang another another 300 lbs. (or being able to afford to) for the 450s- Its not feasible nor can afford to but based on the results that been proven with the DW32 and DW36, there is another 7 mph in the picture and bunch of acceleration. Myrick clicked off a 133 pass last week in a new 36 and hasn't modified anything to on the hull for pick up ramps yet. I think we will see 140 mph outboard pleasure cats in the near future as predicted when these motors first came about (there is still a lot of untapped opportunity with this platform).

Joe

Joe,

Don't forget the additional thing you predicted that goes along with these speeds and the inherent nature of the Outboard versions on these boats running at these speeds. One could argue that just because you can doesn't mean you should.......

[Z06man]

Tom Kennedy has had a lot of time to work on set up and has built 1 of the best looking 24s out there and if someone would like to trade there 300Rs for his 300X I will forward you his number he is willing to trade. I think he went 119 last year and was light on fuel 1 person with x motors running high test .He has been 124 in the past with 1 up .There is no denying the 300R is faster than the X or XS motors and doing it on regular gas , I would say a 5- 7 mph improvement on same boat is fantastic I dont care if it was 50cc or 5000cc if the weight is close and it is available to buying public . I know that more power can be made out of other motors but most cant afford what it cost to build or keep them running much lees have 3 years of warranty and can add 2 more.

[Z06man]

And more power is to come out of the slugs , already working on that.

[JPEROG]

Joe,

Don't forget the additional thing you predicted that goes along with these speeds and the inherent nature of the Outboard versions on these boats running at these speeds. One could argue that just because you can doesn't mean you should.......

I edited my post in a few areas--yes, Mark is 100% correct that >7000 cats and 140 mph are only safe in the hands of very few and just because you can afford it, doesn't mean you need to do it. We all know that you can make 120 mph outboard recipes very easily at this point so there is nothing to prove by killing people when something goes bad.

Joe

[engineermike]

I think it’s funny that the 2-stroke loyalists are all concerned about unfair displacement when the 3.0/3.2’s are getting beat by 4.6’s, but when the 2.6 4-strokes were running with 3.0/3.2 2-strokes no one said a word about it.

[mjw930]

I edited my post in a few areas--yes, Mark is 100% correct that >7000 cats and 140 mph are only safe in the hands of very few and just because you can afford it, doesn't mean you need to do it. We all know that you can make 120 mph outboard recipes very easily at this point so there is nothing to prove by killing people when something goes bad.

Joe

I'm really not trying to be a downer with my comment but the Fiori thread resurrection brought it to mind. It's also concerning that insurance at both the operator and manufacturer level has all but dried up. When it becomes easier to insure yourself as a skydiver than a boat pilot things have gotten out of hand.

[HydroSkreamin]

How fast did Tom Kennady go @ LOTTO with his 24' and 3.0L motors ? (baseline)

How much faster should another 1600 cc (300R) get ya ?

How much faster should another 1600 cc (450R) and a screw blower be ?

Valid questions about hardware, not people. So let's keep emotion out of the equation and stick with facts ... :cheers:

Not quite sure about any emotion involved in my post. If you're referring to "fellas", I meant Warren, I guess. I'm definitely about the facts, 100%.:cheers:

One thing I guess most people don't know about me is I cut my teeth in the aftermarket world porting cylinders and doing dyno development for one of the names of the day in the snowmobile drag/oval/lake-race/watercross, as well as motocross and watercraft, so I'm very aware of 2-stroke potential.

After that I went to blown-alcohol tractor pulling engines, as well as big-blocks and hemis for 4WD truck pulling and drag racing, and circle track 9:1 SBC's, so I've kind of worked on everything, and been privileged to support multiple local and national championships with all kinds of power. I appreciate all of it.

That being said, Eddie Lawson and Kenny Roberts were my heroes as well. Got to meet Eddie in Havasu a couple of years ago. I don't idolize people whatsoever, but it's pretty cool to shake the hand and bench race with one of your childhood heroes. Do you realize the budget those guys had? I was told that King Kenny had a double digit million$ budget for the 2-stroke stuff. That's not quite what we're ever going to talk about w/OB's here.

Like it or not OUR GOVERNMENT put the restrictions on emissions that the mfg's have to live with now. The equipment, testing, and accountability involved with performing EPA certification is mind boggling. When you and I modify one of these we are expecting to never have to deal with the gubmint, but if you ask the Screamin Eagle boys and the aftermarket diesel guys how that's working for them, it's not going to be a pleasant conversation, I assure you. The "rulebook" changed forever, like it or not. So for a manufacturer to offer us performance with compliance and a warranty seems to be popular, as witnessed by the backlog Merc had for new product.

I say it's time for the aftermarket to come up with kits to enhance these slumbering engines. You seem pretty adept at cam/cylinder head/intake/piston combos as witnessed by your dragster performance. If you can keep the heads on it, twist that screw blower up on the 450R, tip the can and show us a 1000 HP dyno sheet (provided everything stays together). All ya gotta do is....one of my favorite sayings to hear!:D

458403

[tom kennedy]

How fast did Tom Kennady go @ LOTTO with his 24' and 3.0L motors ? (baseline)

How much faster should another 1600 cc (300R) get ya ?

How much faster should another 1600 cc (450R) and a screw blower be ?

Valid questions about hardware, not people. So let's keep emotion out of the equation and stick with facts ... :cheers:
The 1st year at Loto shootout with the 24 and set of 2000 PROMAXES I ran 120MPH IN ONE MILE
THE best I ran in the 24 at the shootout in the 24 was 122 with the x motors !!! These speeds are in a mile hot as hell! hardly any chop . That 24 easily ran 123 + in the fall runs flat out (cool air and water , nice chop) ! The 28 that I have now will run 125 +an that has x motors!! Believe me I am definitely interested in the 300 R but I will hold off until they come out with the 15 “setup ect

[Z06man]

Start saving those 100 bills Tom dont want them to catch you needed a few extra bucks when they come out. You can put them a on a new DW 32 Race the wife will never complain about the wind again. You can always rent me a seat.

[tom kennedy]

Start saving those 100 bills Tom dont want them to catch you needed a few extra bucks when they come out. You can put them a on a new DW 32 Race the wife will never complain about the wind again. You can always rent me a seat.
I really need to start playing the lottery Paul !!
lol !!! Looking forward to seeing you fellas this year at loto if
all goes as planned ! Work really seems to get in the way these days !
Yes the wife would definitely be happy with a canopy - wind screen

[Chaz]

Everyone speaks with a bit of emotion, including myself. It's OK to be passionate about a subject .. many times it does get in the way of facts. When no new facts came from the second test .. Did it mean that the new record was to be kept secret or that there was no improvement ..? Sure, I could have called directly and found out. But if the story "broke" here, then the truth can be told here as well.

My NHRA / IHRA license was good to 6.00 / 250 MPH. It took two drivers with the same or better credentials, and a track official to sign off on my ability to race against someone in the other lane at those speeds. I've signed at least 100 licenses during my time as a driver. About 10 years ago it dawned on me, that I wouldn't trust me in the other lane any longer. So I hung up my helmet.
Fire truck, ambulance,tech officials in your face, I've watched many wrist bands get pulled off of guys for having beer on their breath. Much like the skydiver, about all you can do inside the concrete walls is kill yourself and/or the other guy.
Daddy big bucks with more dollars than sense can leave the sand bar and do a lot of damage on the way home. The only checks in place are the other drunks at the sand bar or if a water cop doesn't like what he see's . I think we are all old enough to know if you get thrown out of an open cockpit boat at 100 / 110 / 120 / 130 / 140 it's not going to end well. I'm pretty sure everyone here has pushed what they got to the limit. Hopefully, they don't do it with others in the boat ... and use a little common sense along the way.

The reason I mentioned Tom's boat is because ... he didn't say it. The announcer did on radio and live feed. It wasn't a "well my cell phone and GPS matched" so it's gotta be true .. besides I read it on fazebook .. ;)
No .. I mentioned it as a baseline, because while the 300R can run with it, so far it hasn't been any faster. Yea.. I know >> If my aunt was my uncle, If I had the right props ... you just wait .. etc. etc. etc ... :nonod:
Is there more inside .. Ray Charles can see that. Will the aftermarket turn it into the next LS ? My crystal ball broke long ago .. for those that say it's happening as we speak .. Show me the parts .. or at least a magazine add .. you know COMING SOON :rolleyes: Not calling anyone a liar .. just maybe a little wishful thinking motivated by .. emotion :)
The majority of them are snatched up by the "half a dozen motors across the transom" crowd, I reckon if they demand cams, springs and piston kits .. then your in luck, otherwise , not so much .

The X has a trapped compression ratio of just shy of 6:1 Why does it need 93 octane ? It has a poor combustion chamber / piston crown configuration. And it has oil in the intake charge. Anyone who has done any power adder stuff will tell you first hand what comes next. Oil kills octane, if your lucky you'll only lip the piston. And it also has a log furnace burning just outside of a very short exhaust port.
None of which is conducive to running cheap fuel .. and miles away from being "cutting edge two-stroke technology" .. it's just the best they were willing to give the public at the time. Since they are such junk compared to the new wave stuff .. peeps should be just about giving them away, to not be stuck with them ... :D

I don't think i would talk too much about the supercharged 2.6L four stroke. Take the screw off the side, it would make 250 HP maybe .. but I wouldn't do that, even though it says 400 on the side .. I have yet to see one of them that act like they had 100 HP more than a 3.0L .. just an observation. :p

Hydro .. I'd put "Top Fuel Hoops" in anything I was gonna turn up the boost on. And even a boat I'd have to run it on 85% corn ... :thumbsup:

[Z06man]

How can a 24 skater with same Garmin GPS and a hand held he had before he changed from 300XS TO 300Rs motors go from 117 light best run ever to 122 + back to back runs WITH 2 UP AND A GOOD LOAD OF FUEL NOT BE ANY FASTER and this is first set of props he tried . And Randys 21 Liberators go from having trouble breaking 100MPH to all running 111-114 He weighs the boats and all with in 50 lbs + or -. I have run his 21s with 300XS and 300R The R boat is way faster I do not even understand how it gains that much speed but he is even using the same manual plates . My 28DW Fat Cat with 300Rs was faster than the other 2 28s that had 300XSs and my boat was the heavy 1 of the 3. Steve Bishop gained a huge amount of speed on a bullet bass boat when going from 300XS to the 300R .Every 1 that I have talked to has gained speed and hole shot going from X OR XS motors . Maybe in theory they should not be faster but in real life they are.

[Z06man]

Randy can confirm speed gains he water tests every boat .

[Z06man]

And I love all the motors I have a 300X on my Finish built 24 Twister a 300XS on my 21 Young and did have 300Rs on my 28 DW . The XS is great on gas and does everything well. The 300X is nice and light and is a beast thanks Todd D but try shifting and idle around a dock with a 35 Dewald . I will take the 300Rs any day and they would shift and idle with 38s on them .Mercury has made some great Motors and has done a good job working with in the Regs. I am just glad to see improvement and not go backwards like the Muscle Cars did in late 60s and 70s.

[Chaz]

How can a 24 skater with same Garmin GPS and a hand held he had before he changed from 300XS TO 300Rs motors go from 117 light best run ever to 122 + back to back runs WITH 2 UP AND A GOOD LOAD OF FUEL NOT BE ANY FASTER and this is first set of props he tried .



will pull some fuel out and the cooler will b going out thursday morning with brent 2 c whats up still turning out and running a through da hub. I think the way it sits has a couple more .then will go 2 turning in and a better set of wheels over da hub.i kept running out of water press.trying 2 do 2 much on a new set up.im excited 2 c where it ends up when all is perfect.stay tuned





Going out 7.30 am got all the little things fixed will try 2 sets of wheels 15.25 x 35 5 bl through hubbers and 15.25 x 36 5bl hill props over hubbers will b testing with scawd the dawg brent.cant wait 2 c difference on top end from x.s 117.5 was best ever turning in . Know its faster in .but gonna try out tomorrow.IM A 2 STROKE LOVER 280.S ALL THE WAY HATED 300X.S DIDNT WORK 4 ME THESE R.S R JUST GREAT MOTORS



300xs Isn't that one of them 7 cylinder motors ... with a dead hole .. ?
By his own admission, he HATED the 7 cylinders .. how much effort would you put into something you hate .. ??? yeap, me either .. :)
<strike></strike>
In ~ Out ... I'll let you count .. yeap, looks like 1 set to me too ... :rolleyes:
I'm not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I believe the 117 was with the 280's not the 7 cylinders.
However, my baseline was from a boat with 300x motors. :smiletest:
My question(s) still remain :
#1) how much faster should 1600 cc be worth ? (in this case 3200 cc )
#2) how much faster does $55,000 - $65,000 get ya ? (just curious)
#3) to be fair .. wouldn't a third 3.2L have to be installed ? Then the mid-range torque that makes it "feel" faster would be equal ... :)

Supa-star , said he loved the new motors .. and that's all that really matters in the end ... :thumbsup:
<strike>
</strike>

[Z06man]

Supa -Star are we talking about the same guy . He has yet to fix one of my Duke energy bills . Now on the other hand call Ryan I know he has way with those power poles some people call it climbing on top. I would love a 400 HP CRT motor on my Twister they look bad ass but how much coin are they. Cant wait to see them flying on a 32 Doug Wright now that will be hauling the mail.

[Z06man]

M28 with 450s picked up a little speed also just wish I had the money.

[AZMIDLYF]

Sorry for the thread jack, but this is for Instigator...pipe choreography. :D

https://www.facebook.com/grmracingengines/videos/170004307745616/

[Chaz]

I tried to make the math as simple as possible .... my bad ;)





Si Giuseppe, Non sapevo che costruissero motori fuoribordo al di fuori del fon du lac ..... :eek:<strike></strike>


https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20369025_1947833885488483_1865158568933516890_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ohc=IK0wk40zZroAX_NXi8B&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=500266754c3d4efb76f46bd00e9047de&oe=5EB56E2A


https://scontent-mia3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/s960x960/11001610_1555544681384074_3810969083386558856_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ohc=vWfBCY40Sf8AX_jSo49&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-1.xx&oh=af59852f8dced5c6fd4d31ba51a0ddc9&oe=5EC5A0AB

Divertente, ho la stessa identica maniglia e taglierina ... :thumbsup:

Grazie .... mio amico :cheers:<strike></strike><strike></strike>

https://scontent-mia3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/s960x960/20424103_1948767645395107_613034345421228613_o.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ohc=sIVL6fQZ_20AX-xFM1M&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-1.xx&oh=3d7355e66a977c0d8910cee337f00614&oe=5F01C516<strike>
</strike><strike></strike>

[Chaz]

pipe choreography. :D

Coreografia di tubi ....

​https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19275329_1926449327626939_6437633967058656053_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ohc=E7GRBh2AfDkAX9TdlvV&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=938462a4439263e926ecfa69aeb694b1&oe=5EC59562

[powerabout]

got a photo of a complete lower?

[Instigator]

Way cool video!

They claim 15% - 30% HP for properly designed pipes.

I put them on a 2 cyl 350cc that I raced in the day.
I raced that motor in a class w/o the pipes too (switched back n forth) and w/o the pipe it would turn 6K w/a test wheel.

First test, I was bummed when it only turned 6K w/the pipe???
That was w/it extended ��
W/it at 6K I pulled the pipe and it buried my 8K test tech!!


Sorry for the thread jack, but this is for Instigator...pipe choreography. :D

https://www.facebook.com/grmracingengines/videos/170004307745616/

[AZMIDLYF]

got a photo of a complete lower?

458571

[warren]

Well this thread has turned into a thing of its own as they usually do so far 122.5 is the best just got props back.15 x 35 5 bl dewalds.will b going out tomorrow morning with brent looking 4 125.we shall c .whats up.motors on this boat with pickups moved back from 3 litre location to the 5.44 location seem 2 run out of water very fast.goes from 20psi.to 3 psi in a flick of switch. Cant adjust sealed jack unit.stay tuned.red rocket out

[Chaz]

MidLife .... That would be so hard to dock , but .. since I won't have to learn how to shift it , I'll take two .. BTW, hypoid is so expensive ... can I use 87 octane as lube :D

I tease enough, so I'll have to admit it's true ..:eek:
When them 3.0L's sneeze like a horse .. :o
Those POS 2 strokes need a shot of ether to get going again ... :leaving: :D :D :D :p

https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/s960x960/15194534_1821096224828917_7812208878486011823_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ohc=onXL1N7CzTgAX_JGflF&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=36f5c9c71976fc2c45de88517ff935bd&oe=5EC62C83

[Dave Strong]

458574
Way cool video!

They claim 15% - 30% HP for properly designed pipes.

I put them on a 2 cyl 350cc that I raced in the day.
I raced that motor in a class w/o the pipes too (switched back n forth) and w/o the pipe it would turn 6K w/a test wheel.

First test, I was bummed when it only turned 6K w/the pipe???
That was w/it extended ��
W/it at 6K I pulled the pipe and it buried my 8K test tech!!

Was a guy up here that used to build pipes for high altitude sleds, certain dealer would supply him with the new year model engine to use on a dyno to make them. He had a place he could test at 9000'. They did nothing at sea level but man did they work up high. I had 2 different sets on 2 different engines and they were amazing. the set I still have really liked it when I took a grinder to the ports. ;):D He quit doing it because Ski Doo kept changing engines and bodies of the sleds every year. People can't believe its a 700 and think its a big bore.

Dave

[powerabout]

MidLife .... That would be so hard to dock , but .. since I won't have to learn how to shift it , I'll take two .. BTW, hypoid is so expensive ... can I use 87 octane as lube :D

I tease enough, so I'll have to admit it's true ..:eek:
When them 3.0L's sneeze like a horse .. :o
Those POS 2 strokes need a shot of ether to get going again ... :leaving: :D :D :D :p

https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/s960x960/15194534_1821096224828917_7812208878486011823_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ohc=onXL1N7CzTgAX_JGflF&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=36f5c9c71976fc2c45de88517ff935bd&oe=5EC62C83

thats hanging onto 200? hp but how much torque?

[xb03fs]

So there is room for a 350R and 400r under the 450r as well as a huge gap in pricing. Mercury is gonna do the dirty work aftermarket won’t have to tweak them.... it will happen for sure

[Chaz]

thats hanging onto 200? hp but how much torque?

Have you ever used a 3/4" impact gun, or torque wrench ??? Drive shaft "splines" is a square drive.
The "black washer" is a timken style bearing, the race behind it the thrust face, just as the back of the "ring gear" is.
All three propshaft bearings have a groove on the outer race to locate it. And the back two have a thrust collar between them.
Straight cut gearset is at least a 12 DP .. you can rest assured it's either 8620 or 9310 carburized steel.

Chaz = thinkin, you won't break one anytime soon ... :thumbsup:

https://scontent-mia3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10940595_1546140755657800_61979692943567600_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ohc=LF9SxRA6BNYAX9k1Rpr&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-1.xx&oh=ef5af52472005853679513f7847bbe5a&oe=5ECB6303

[Dave Strong]

Have you ever used a 3/4" impact gun, or torque wrench ??? Drive shaft "splines" is a square drive.
The "black washer" is a timken style bearing, the race behind it the thrust face, just as the back of the "ring gear" is.
All three propshaft bearings have a groove on the outer race to locate it. And the back two have a thrust collar between them.
Straight cut gearset is at least a 12 DP .. you can rest assured it's either 8620 or 9310 carburized steel.

Chaz = thinkin, you won't break one anytime soon ... :thumbsup:

https://scontent-mia3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10940595_1546140755657800_61979692943567600_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ohc=LF9SxRA6BNYAX9k1Rpr&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-1.xx&oh=ef5af52472005853679513f7847bbe5a&oe=5ECB6303

Dave thinks impact stuff has no place on engines, just saying. The special rattle is best left to those who do not understand. :rolleyes:

Dave

[powerabout]

Looks way easier to setup than an sst45 that doesnt split

[Instigator]

I’ve always loved the hot rod V-6 stuff butttttt, when I went to my first kneel down race in the ‘70’s, and saw my first, true, “Pro/Alky” class motor..., it all changed.

Four cylinder, horizontally opposed, two (or four) expansion chambers, on slides to adjust their “tuned length”, real race gear cases, 6” mid sections, rope start, methanol fuel and castor oil, so much compression that each crew had A guy to “rope the motors”, so high strung that you needed two more crew members to hold the back of the boat out of the water so you could rope the motor, 10K+ RPM, rotary valves, weighed 65 lbs, and the 500cc’s are now close to 200 HP’s, and they came from the factory that way........

[Chaz]

Dave thinks impact stuff has no place on engines, just saying. The special rattle is best left to those who do not understand. :rolleyes:

Dave


750 ft/lbs / 1200 break away . Perfect for 1/4x20 or 6x1.0mm bolts .. :eek: :nonod: :leaving:

https://ohiopowertool.com/images/Product/large/874.jpg

I had to make sure that guy didn't borrow my "hi-grunt" 90* ... :D

https://i.imgur.com/c5i25hRl.jpg

[baja200merk]

The 300r will make 400 naturally aspirated once someone does a 93 octane tune for them. :leaving:

[mjw930]

The 300r will make 400 naturally aspirated once someone does a 93 octane tune for them. :leaving:

Make it like many of the car tunes where I can select the tune based on the quality of fuel available and I'm all in but I doubt the ECM is capable of that.

[Capt.Insane-o]

458633458633
I’ve always loved the hot rod V-6 stuff butttttt, when I went to my first kneel down race in the ‘70’s, and saw my first, true, “Pro/Alky” class motor..., it all changed.

Four cylinder, horizontally opposed, two (or four) expansion chambers, on slides to adjust their “tuned length”, real race gear cases, 6” mid sections, rope start, methanol fuel and castor oil, so much compression that each crew had A guy to “rope the motors”, so high strung that you needed two more crew members to hold the back of the boat out of the water so you could rope the motor, 10K+ RPM, rotary valves, weighed 65 lbs, and the 500cc’s are now close to 200 HP’s, and they came from the factory that way........

[baja200merk]

Make it like many of the car tunes where I can select the tune based on the quality of fuel available and I'm all in but I doubt the ECM is capable of that.

the new flex fuel cars and trucks have alcohol sensors in the fuel system and adjust accordingly for it. That would be nice but I’m guessing you’d have to tune it to the fuel you run.

[JrCRXHF]

the new flex fuel cars and trucks have alcohol sensors in the fuel system and adjust accordingly for it. That would be nice but I’m guessing you’d have to tune it to the fuel you run.

https://www.haltech.com/how-flex-fuel-control-works/

This might shine some light how they do it in the aftermarket world. I have not looked into the 300R to know if it is a DI or Port injection motor. But the VE tuning and flex fuel is pretty much standard in the aftermarket car world.

[Instigator]

There’s a thread on OSO showing a notice from Merc warning that A., they will be checking computers for manipulation and will cx warranties accordingly and that B., the EPA is also watching and they have already nabbed a few.

[Chaz]

The 300r will make 400 naturally aspirated once someone does a 93 octane tune for them. :leaving:

100 HP in a type~a~writer ... :rolleyes:

Why ya wanna tease the Merc bouyyyyssss ... :D

Hey .. can ya flash a set of these 10:0 /1's in , while I wait ... ;)

https://images.rallysportdirect.com/image/private/s--iwys4CAy--/f_auto,t_category/v1/product_images/cbwavthdifsuy5m9hhzk

[Capt.Insane-o]

300+ on 87 octane...I would leave the damn thing alone. What it needs is to be five inches shorter.

[engineermike]

Like this?

https://www.powerboatracingworld.com/mercury-racing-competition-v8-engine-adopted-for-f1h2o/

[Chaz]

From crickets to corn E-98, E-85, E-10, M-1 wood, 87, 93, C-16, Q-16, NOSMAX120, and CH3N2O .. since it's Mercury ... All those tunes will be on compact
disc's

available from Mercury racing direct, or Wal-Mart's muz-ak

section.. just plug one in the stereo. Or for the ballers, load up a CD changer full of cartoons ... :D<strike></strike>

[Chaz]

Chaz = thinkin, speakin of cartoons .. Good thing H20F1 grandfathered in the 2.5L into their format .. It would be hard to race a rendering .. ;)

[H2OPERF]

Adapting a powerhead is nothing, gear ratio/ props and balance to make them compete with an existing 2.5 setup will have to be seen, huge rpm difference in the powerheads. They will prob change the boats /courses then the 2.5 will go away...

[powerabout]

Adapting a powerhead is nothing, gear ratio/ props and balance to make them compete with an existing 2.5 setup will have to be seen, huge rpm difference in the powerheads. They will prob change the boats /courses then the 2.5 will go away...
F1 tractor pull....

[Chaz]

Adapting a powerhead is nothing, gear ratio/ props and balance to make them compete with an existing 2.5 setup will have to be seen, huge rpm difference in the powerheads. They will prob change the boats /courses then the 2.5 will go away...

Hey man ... it might be slow .. down the straights .. :o

But ... it sure is top-heavy round the bends ... ;) :D

https://i.imgur.com/AfqSQ3El.jpg

[powerabout]

Will it run better than an old omc f1 v8?

[JrCRXHF]

Will it run better than an old omc f1 v8?

Not pound for pound. The thing still has to go around a turn. They just need to make a boat and a class for the 4 Jokes if they want to race them.

[Capt.Insane-o]

Those guys can tell if they took a piss or not balance wise when they get in the boat. The 2.5 is going to be very very tough to replace regardless of what the jiffy lube oil changing loving queers say.

[johnmiffco]

yes 2 strokes are going away for the heavier 4s,,,thats a given
I still like the lighter high reving 2s
so boat market for o/bs have gone to larger hulls to handle the heavier 4s
and most o/b sales goes to the CCs and now larger performance cats
so the 16-18 hod rod hulls are going away slowly
just like in racing sst120 went to the opti 200
in early yrs opti couldn't compete with 120
then merc discontinued the 120 and added more power/higher rev to it and courses went longer on straights and more 2 pin turns
optis now were competitive,,,but at the cost of a new motor and a new hull to handle the motor
class died out drastically,,,,,,,
then x cat went to 400 with the 4 stroke over the 280s and discontinued them also,,,,,new motors and larger new hulls
today that class is struggling
now to 4.6 on F1
will do the same I would imagine following its the evolution of what manufacturers make and user to adapt to how used

[AZMIDLYF]

Did hulls have to change/grow to handle the OMC F1s?

[johnmiffco]

way back in them days of the omc F1s they were mostly factory sponsored boats and hulls were made for the set up
bill seabold entered into their races with the 2.4 merc f1 and they built their own hulls and were bit shorter
back then they were narrower hulls and used length more in them non capsuled boats
them fuel injected F1 v8s were some snotty power for the day
downfall was hoping to finish 10 laps on the limiter,,,,,lol

[powerabout]

Did hulls have to change/grow to handle the OMC F1s?
yes check out the later stuff with Ben Robertson, Beaumont TX 145mph lap average...

[powerabout]

yes 2 strokes are going away for the heavier 4s,,,thats a given
I still like the lighter high reving 2s
so boat market for o/bs have gone to larger hulls to handle the heavier 4s
and most o/b sales goes to the CCs and now larger performance cats
so the 16-18 hod rod hulls are going away slowly
just like in racing sst120 went to the opti 200
in early yrs opti couldn't compete with 120
then merc discontinued the 120 and added more power/higher rev to it and courses went longer on straights and more 2 pin turns
optis now were competitive,,,but at the cost of a new motor and a new hull to handle the motor
class died out drastically,,,,,,,
then x cat went to 400 with the 4 stroke over the 280s and discontinued them also,,,,,new motors and larger new hulls
today that class is struggling
now to 4.6 on F1
will do the same I would imagine following its the evolution of what manufacturers make and user to adapt to how used


F2 saying they will be forced to change as well, I wonder what they will use?

[Dave Strong]

From what I remeber V8, 2.5 and 2.0 all had different min weights not sure about length.

Dave

[johnmiffco]

American F1/F2 hulls has to be minimum 16' long from transom to tips
Im uim certified builder to 40000 newtons and built my own hulls and raced them from 2000-2010
in 2000 average hull was 17' 46" tunnel I was some of the earlier wider hulls
mine were 16'6" 48-49" tunnel
and new hulls are more now

[Chaz]

F2 saying they will be forced to change as well, I wonder what they will use?

They tried the 150 HP 3.4L V-6 4-stroke in F2 .. couldn't keep up .. :nonod:

With pistons and cams to be AVAILABLE IN 2025, expect to see the 4 strokes on the back of center console boats parking ever so effortlessly .. :rolleyes:
The fun part will be, when the captain gets ready to leave. And forgets which was the last, across the rack motors he started. Since he can't hear them running ... it will be just like at the butcher ... hit that same key again and grind me a pound ... :p

With the Walmart 10 CD "tune" changer, 50/50 mix of 87 and 90 "wreck" fuel, they find that the 4.6 fits in the 250cc class and the new 3.4 can hold it's own with the 125's ... :D


https://i.imgur.com/Vc7Bglol.jpg

[Capt.Insane-o]

458890

[H2OPERF]

I know this is all bout mercury buuut...Anyone looked at the 2.7 66deg small block g2 powerhead.. bad ass n compact very similar to the 2.5 layout too, would be a great alternative, why does a mfg have to set the standard they don't build the freakin boats..

[H2OPERF]

I know there's big money in this sport but I honestly think the 4st v8 will end up killin the sport in the end or change it so much none of us will be interested... maybe i'm old and need to let it go to the millennials lol... and just be happy I was able to hear the scream of a pack coming down the strait-away.

[johnmiffco]

I with u on this
been racing merc v 6 since 82,,,mod vp,unlimited drags,F1 &2 and offshore
sold my tripple 2.5 boat couple yrs ago
and really miss the sound of 3 offshores in harmony across the water
when I started F2 we had 28-32 boats on the start dock
within 5 yrs went to 10-15,,,,,from the homogination of the opti 2.5 in a 2.0 class
right now in offshore the o/b cat class has grown to more boats in the class in last couple yrs and more coming for 2020
so how long since opti is gone till they have to buy new boats and motors when the 4.6 is put in the mix
im old also and very glad I had the 80s to 2010 yrs of racing them
putting a 28 together now with hot x style motors and will run em enjoting the noise,,,,

[powerabout]

I know there's big money in this sport but I honestly think the 4st v8 will end up killin the sport in the end or change it so much none of us will be interested... maybe i'm old and need to let it go to the millennials lol... and just be happy I was able to hear the scream of a pack coming down the strait-away.
it will work in offshore where you are moving tons of boat but performance sob and circuit racing I cant see it expanding the sport.
I guess the dollars are spent where the market is the biggest and it seems thats larger and larger HP?

[wicheckmate]

it will work in offshore where you are moving tons of boat but performance sob and circuit racing I cant see it expanding the sport.
I guess the dollars are spent where the market is the biggest and it seems thats larger and larger HP?

A single 300R would work great on an SOB. any 21 pulsare, superboat ect you will have more top speed and midrange with the 300R.

[H2OPERF]

The thread was going in the f1 direction that's what I meant, agree it will be fine on bigger stuff though saw one today in the keys on a flats boat 20in sure looked kinda funny (tall)..

[powerabout]

A single 300R would work great on an SOB. any 21 pulsare, superboat ect you will have more top speed and midrange with the 300R.
yes sure it will but I was thinking race classes, lets see how it goes in ski racing as thats the 21' 300HP market

[wicheckmate]

yes sure it will but I was thinking race classes, lets see how it goes in ski racing as thats the 21' 300HP market


actually it would probably work out pretty well with ski racing with the additional torque.

[baja200merk]

There’s a reason they add weight for big blocks when these get boost or tunes it will be like jetskis and all the other Motorsports that went 4-stroke. The skis have been 130mph with a pump and turbo. Only 1.8L

[baja200merk]

There’s a reason they add weight for big blocks when these get boost or tunes it will be like jetskis and all the other Motorsports that went 4-stroke. The skis have been 130mph with a pump and turbo. Only 1.8L

[powerabout]

130mph on a jet ski sounds just what the weekend novice needs.

[Z06man]

At least you know he wont hang a 90 in front of you without looking .

[baja200merk]

130mph on a jet ski sounds just what the weekend novice needs.
Like most of the 100mph boaters on this site theres 1 in a million 100mph jet skis. None of them care about warranty, cost or down time for go fast mods and they sure don’t give a **** about the epa :D

[wicheckmate]

Like most of the 100mph boaters on this site theres 1 in a million 100mph jet skis. None of them care about warranty, cost or down time for go fast mods and they sure don’t give a **** about the epa :D

I don't think the "weekend novice" would be good with a tunnel boat or mod vp boat and a 300 drag 2.5 either lol

[Chaz]

I don't believe the A/F ratio could be too far off .. :nonod:

So that leaves putting a couple ~ few degrees of advance in. :eek:
Back in the KZ1000 / GS 1100 days, we found a lot more moving the cams around than moving the ignition timing. But I understand it's easier to put the magic box in a box along with a check for $1000 and mail it away .. and being like a kid at Christmas when it returns .. Few snap in plugs, a grommet or two .. and badda~bing ... (how did that program work out for the 300x-300xs guys) :rolleyes:
The other way, requires slotting sprockets on a rotary table, using a degree wheel and checking piston to valve on an assembled shim and bucket motor .. but then, well you know what the outcome would be .. :thumbsup:

Just so I don't forget ... we're at $65,000.00 for 2~3 MPH .. 300x to 300R .. right ?

[AZMIDLYF]

yes sure it will but I was thinking race classes, lets see how it goes in ski racing as thats the 21' 300HP market

The Aussie ski racers are switching over to 4 strokes in droves. But that is kind of sport specific.

[Chaz]

The Aussie ski racers are switching over to 4 strokes in droves. But that is kind of sport specific.

Just because some of the other kids are jumping off the roof into the swimming pool, doesn't mean you have to do it too ... :eek:















Heard it from my folks, told it to my kid .. his answer was the same as mine .. pppffttt when I get there , we're putting their trampoline on the garage and goin for height and distance .. :D

Chaz= wunderin, if stepping off of a slalom ski .. hurts as bad as getting thrown out of a boat @ 100 MPH ... :leaving:

[AZMIDLYF]

Like I stated Chaz...sport specific. They like the midrange grunt of these cubic inch torquers.

[powerabout]

Like I stated Chaz...sport specific. They like the midrange grunt of these cubic inch torquers.
the outboards always struggled to get out of the corners versus blown big blocks ( now turbo big blocks)

[baja200merk]

I don't think the "weekend novice" would be good with a tunnel boat or mod vp boat and a 300 drag 2.5 either lol
Exactly what I was trying to say. :thumbsup:

[JPEROG]

I don't believe the A/F ratio could be too far off .. :nonod:

So that leaves putting a couple ~ few degrees of advance in. :eek:
Back in the KZ1000 / GS 1100 days, we found a lot more moving the cams around than moving the ignition timing. But I understand it's easier to put the magic box in a box along with a check for $1000 and mail it away .. and being like a kid at Christmas when it returns .. Few snap in plugs, a grommet or two .. and badda~bing ... (how did that program work out for the 300x-300xs guys) :rolleyes:
The other way, requires slotting sprockets on a rotary table, using a degree wheel and checking piston to valve on an assembled shim and bucket motor .. but then, well you know what the outcome would be .. :thumbsup:

Just so I don't forget ... we're at $65,000.00 for 2~3 MPH .. 300x to 300R .. right ?



The biggest gain that I ever experienced with the GS1100 and 1150 was sending the head to George Bryce and having oversized valves along with porting. He had them figured out and used magacycle cams. The difference was extreme back then but like all of the old stuff, a new bike modded with DOT tires and no bar makes the old stuff look slow. Times have changed...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu51h-0e7ZY

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu51h-0e7ZY)So you don't forget, the guys buying these motors are not doing it only for the 2-3 mph and the money is not an issue for most of them. When mercury releases a bigger number on the side of a 450 that has more air being forced, the guys will get in line to buy them for the additional 5K or 10K just like they are going after the 450s now.

Joe

[Chaz]

The biggest gain that I ever experienced with the GS1100 and 1150 was sending the head to George Bryce and having oversized valves along with porting. He had them figured out and used magacycle cams. The difference was extreme back then but like all of the old stuff, a new bike modded with DOT tires and no bar makes the old stuff look slow. Times have changed...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu51h-0e7ZY

Joe

Thank you for making my point .... which was not too much meat on the bone, as far as fuel and spark tables.
I only mentioned can timing because it's easy to move the power around on a twin cam. If it was mine .. you know I'm not mature enough to stop there ... LOL
By 1976 maybe 77, George had a turbo/alky Z1 that could carry his grit's and gravy azz deep into the 8's @ over 155 mph.
The Man-Cup, PDRA Pro/Mod bikes of today are truly flying. But even though they seem to call all of them "Busa's" ... don't be surprised if you pulled the fairing off and find the tried and true GS platform underneath.
Dan Wagner who is in a lot of those vids, is from Ft. Lauderdale. He raced in the old Miami-Hollywood days, and at Moroso .. until he moved to N. Carolina. His game has improved 10 fold since the move ... I say good for him, he works hard and deserved a break .. :thumbsup:

Ifin ya ever get your hands on a 300R head .. bring it down. We will put it on the windmill and see what kind of numbers it can blow ... then it's simple math to transfer that into how much "power potential" it has .. my guess , it will not see 300 intake and 220 CFM exhaust .. :)

[Instigator]

Recently Stumbled on a YouTube video of “battle of the 2 strokes”.

Top two was a H-2 against a Suzy water buffalo which won w/an 8.80!!!
Not bad for non boosted 45 yr old junk.

[Chaz]

I'll see your "water buffalo" and raise ya with an Allen Millyard H1- Kawazuki conversion .. :cheers:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhHH5s8Xuj8

Out of all the Millyard marvels, the 5 cyl 750 / 1300 is still one of my fav's .. :)

( If he took them stupid ear muff's off, he'd be able to hear it runnin thru the clutch)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a90677Qci3g

And for the "ski race" crowd .. here's a 5L Pratt+Whitnee to yank a half a dozen skiers up at a time .. :p


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGLHTPTtNaQ

[baja200merk]

Most of this **** is way before my time but badass.

Joe you still “storing” my 2nd vmax? :confused:

[Instigator]

Yep, guy is genius.

He is a regular contributor in a British classic bike mag I subscribe to.

He just finished an in-line 374cc 6 Honda tribute bike for their championship 350cc grand pro bike from the ‘60’s.

He built the crank, frame, gas tank, pipes etc, for it.

Hes done a 4,5 and 6 cyl 2 stroke Kawi conversion.

Also built a V-10 Viper motor bike.
All in a little shed behind his house.



I'll see your "water buffalo" and raise ya with an Allen Millyard H1- Kawazuki conversion .. :cheers:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhHH5s8Xuj8

Out of all the Millyard marvels, the 5 cyl 750 / 1300 is still one of my fav's .. :)

( If he took them stupid ear muff's off, he'd be able to hear it runnin thru the clutch)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a90677Qci3g

And for the "ski race" crowd .. here's a 5L Pratt+Whitnee to yank a half a dozen skiers up at a time .. :p


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGLHTPTtNaQ

[capteliminator]

I don't believe the A/F ratio could be too far off .. :nonod:

So that leaves putting a couple ~ few degrees of advance in. :eek:
Back in the KZ1000 / GS 1100 days, we found a lot more moving the cams around than moving the ignition timing. But I understand it's easier to put the magic box in a box along with a check for $1000 and mail it away .. and being like a kid at Christmas when it returns .. Few snap in plugs, a grommet or two .. and badda~bing ... (how did that program work out for the 300x-300xs guys) :rolleyes:
The other way, requires slotting sprockets on a rotary table, using a degree wheel and checking piston to valve on an assembled shim and bucket motor .. but then, well you know what the outcome would be .. :thumbsup:

Just so I don't forget ... we're at $65,000.00 for 2~3 MPH .. 300x to 300R .. right ?

The math on this doesn't add up to me. Why is it 60-65K? I have seen 300R's for sale for 22K and change. If one has a boat with twin 300x motors and wanted to go to 300R's, wouldnt one be able to sell the 300x motors to offset the cost of new power?

[engineermike]

Technically, for a fair comparison, you’d have to look at the new MSRP of each. In 2005 the 300x SM was $20,500. The 300R SM is $29,000 +/-. If you include 3% inflation for 15 years, the price of the 300x SM in today’s dollars is $32,000. So, new vs new, the 300r is almost 10% cheaper than the 300x.

[Chaz]

The math on this doesn't add up to me. Why is it 60-65K? I have seen 300R's for sale for 22K and change. If one has a boat with twin 300x motors and wanted to go to 300R's, wouldnt one be able to sell the 300x motors to offset the cost of new power?

Good to see someone willing to address my question ... :thumbsup:

I'm pretty sure that the 300R / SM / wing plate deal is over $30,000.00 each.
But lets round it off and call it 30K x 2 = $60,000.00 Lets forget about tax, tag, dealer destination, installation fee's .. etc, etc, ect ... or add $5000.00 to be safe. Your choice.

According to the ballers .. no one wants a crappy old 300x anymore .. :rolleyes:
How many you seen for sale between 10 and $12,000.00 that are still for sale ???
Has it been in salt, how many hours, any welds, it's 15 years old ... etc, etc, etc.
So what are they really worth, in hundred dollar bills ... ? Seems like less than 10 to me. And if you don't mind piecing one together and know where to look .. a bunch less than that .. But round numbers .. lets call it $10,000.00

30,000 x 2 = 60,000
10,000 x 2 = 20,000
--------------------------------------------------
$40,000.00 diff I stand corrected :)

2 ~ 3 MPH for $40,000.00 Heck of a deal ... :eek: :nonod: :D



engineermike

Technically, for a fair comparison, you’d have to look at the new MSRP of each. In 2005 the 300x SM was $20,500. The 300R SM is $29,000 +/-. If you include 3% inflation for 15 years, the price of the 300x SM in today’s dollars is $32,000. So, new vs new, the 300r is almost 10% cheaper than the 300x.



You should run for office, I watched the debate the other night ... your party needs help !

Like you, they are still using CCNN + MSDNC polling numbers ... :p

BTW, it was just a movie ... :rolleyes:


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-isXTyNfy76s/T-XVmkaqzHI/AAAAAAAABDg/X-SfSDdXUfg/s1600/vdt_delorean.jpg<strike></strike>


<strike></strike>

[engineermike]

Are you you denying the existence of inflation? Or did i get the MSRP wrong? If I’m wrong on either one of those let me know how and I’ll fix my math. Some claim the government inflation numbers are way understated, but that actually hurts the 300x economic case.

[Dave Strong]

Good to see someone willing to address my question ... :thumbsup:

I'm pretty sure that the 300R / SM / wing plate deal is over $30,000.00 each.
But lets round it off and call it 30K x 2 = $60,000.00 Lets forget about tax, tag, dealer destination, installation fee's .. etc, etc, ect ... or add $5000.00 to be safe. Your choice.

According to the ballers .. no one wants a crappy old 300x anymore .. :rolleyes:
How many you seen for sale between 10 and $12,000.00 that are still for sale ???
Has it been in salt, how many hours, any welds, it's 15 years old ... etc, etc, etc.
So what are they really worth, in hundred dollar bills ... ? Seems like less than 10 to me. And if you don't mind piecing one together and know where to look .. a bunch less than that .. But round numbers .. lets call it $10,000.00

30,000 x 2 = 60,000
10,000 x 2 = 20,000
--------------------------------------------------
$40,000.00 diff I stand corrected :)

2 ~ 3 MPH for $40,000.00 Heck of a deal ... :eek: :nonod: :D



engineermike

Technically, for a fair comparison, you’d have to look at the new MSRP of each. In 2005 the 300x SM was $20,500. The 300R SM is $29,000 +/-. If you include 3% inflation for 15 years, the price of the 300x SM in today’s dollars is $32,000. So, new vs new, the 300r is almost 10% cheaper than the 300x.



You should run for office, I watched the debate the other night ... your party needs help !

Like you, they are still using CCNN + MSDNC polling numbers ... :p

BTW, it was just a movie ... :rolleyes:


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-isXTyNfy76s/T-XVmkaqzHI/AAAAAAAABDg/X-SfSDdXUfg/s1600/vdt_delorean.jpg<strike></strike>


<strike></strike>









I seem to recall wire harness that is needed to do the upgrade was also extra cost and could have been some other stuff as well.

Dave

[Chaz]

Are you you denying the existence of inflation? Or did i get the MSRP wrong? If I’m wrong on either one of those let me know how and I’ll fix my math. Some claim the government inflation numbers are way understated, but that actually hurts the 300x economic case.

The real math is :

The gov doesn't have a surplus of 2005 / 300x motors for sale.

Show me where a 300x sold in 2020 for $32,000.00

3% compounded annually, what does that make a Model T, or a 1973 Vega worth. ?

Your 400 Vertigo, how much has it approached in value since you bought it .. ???
(better refill your Prozac .. before you list it )

Just more, if my aunt was my uncle jibberish ... but nice try ;)




I seem to recall wire harness that is needed to do the upgrade was also extra cost and could have been some other stuff as well.

Dave


Dave, if we're gonna nit~pick every little thing .. LMAO
Might as well mention that all the props you own .. are now junk too. But if ya bought em long-long ago, because of inflation, you can actually make money on them ... so I'm told :)
Mind you, to be part of the baller club .. ya need to buy wheels that are 3 to 5 thousand each .. :eek:

All kiddin aside, I heard from a very good source that to drop off your cat hull rigged for Mercury, and pick up a running boat, expect to pay at least $70,000.00 before the smoke clears ... <strike>
</strike><strike></strike>

[JrCRXHF]

mother mercury wants you to ditch the 300X and buy new 300R the push this by making repair parts hard to come by. Some day the 300R will get the same treatment.

[engineermike]

The real math is :

The gov doesn't have a surplus of 2005 / 300x motors for sale.

Show me where a 300x sold in 2020 for $32,000.00

3% compounded annually, what does that make a Model T, or a 1973 Vega worth. ?

Your 400 Vertigo, how much has it approached in value since you bought it .. ???
(better refill your Prozac .. before you list it )... <strike>
</strike><strike></strike>

Im sorry your 300x isn’t an appreciating asset. Neither is my 400r. The real math is that you could always take old junk and go as fast or faster than new stuff for cheaper. But it’s still old junk.

[capteliminator]

Okay made a call and a pair of 300R wingplate motors can be had for 52,405 plus freight and no tax. My opinion on clean 300x motors(I have 2) would sell for 12500 easily each. So, 52,405 minus 25,000 is 27,405. No hi test needed, warranty yada yada. Not tryin to argue with anyone but if you have a twin engine rig with 300x motors and want to repower its not 60k to gain 2-3 mph, should be less than 30k. Granted new motors aren't for everyone but there IS a market for them, just sayin!!

[Double Rigged]

Im sorry your 300x isn’t an appreciating asset. Neither is my 400r. The real math is that you could always take old junk and go as fast or faster than new stuff for cheaper. But it’s still old junk.

I bet some feel pretty bad spending 50k and getting by old junk! I know I would. The 300x is the only contender to hold its own against the 300r. I agree anyone running a 300xs package the 300r is a faster set up hands down. For me not worth the price to go same speed or slower. Have to keep saving for 450's!

[engineermike]

... For me not worth the price to go same speed or slower.

I’m not trying to convince anyone it’s worth it for them. That’s their own decision, but spending $30k for 2 mph of speed is your only concern doesn’t seem worth it to most (not to me, for sure). But speed isn’t the only factor that comes into play.


Have to keep saving for 450's!

The 450r is awesome, but I’ll just have to settle for less because it’s not worth the money to me.

[Capt.Insane-o]

mother mercury wants you to ditch the 300X and buy new 300R the push this by making repair parts hard to come by. Some day the 300R will get the same treatment.

It'll be the Veradoo first. First thing NLA will be the oil plug drain plug gasket. :D

[Chaz]

Okay made a call and a pair of 300R wingplate motors can be had for 52,405 plus freight and no tax. My opinion on clean 300x motors(I have 2) would sell for 12500 easily each. So, 52,405 minus 25,000 is 27,405. No hi test needed, warranty yada yada. Not tryin to argue with anyone but if you have a twin engine rig with 300x motors and want to repower its not 60k to gain 2-3 mph, should be less than 30k. Granted new motors aren't for everyone but there IS a market for them, just sayin!!





<strike style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: line-through; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"></strike>
No argument here .. I think peeps that argue instead of having a factual, thought-provoking, conversation .. must have been abused as a child .. or something
..:o

It's always nice to have something to sell to offset the cost of the new toys. Be it Rolex's, motors, or dividend checks.
The problem that seems to follow me around if I am selling something of value, and I'll use your number of $25,000.00 is that the banks won't lend that kind of money on say .. 15 year old engines. Guys that have a line of credit where a signature loan is all they need, are almost as rare as a guy who goes out and digs a can up from his back yard. Sometimes you see em last online for an hour and they're gone for 15K each, while others get bumped down to 10K or less and still don't sell .. No rhyme or reason to it.
New motors, it seems most get sold 4-6 at a time and go on center consoles that area half a block long. Even if I hit the lottery .. I still don't see it .. different strokes.
$52,405 looks like $26,202.50 each. (i know Merc tightened down on dealers selling motors without installing and registering each unit themselves, so I won't ask)
So thats a 300R / sporty / wing plates for $26,202.50 ea. Shipping, around $300 ea. That harness Dave spoke of .. maybe $500 ea. Lets call it $27K Add a $3000 dollar prop ... Lookin like $30,000.00 a copy. And the're still not mounted.
I'm too old with too many miles on me. I'd never get my moneys
worth out of them, and my kid could care less, He'd rather have a flats boat with a light motor to do some backcountry fishin with ... But for those that have the money and want to be seen ... then Like I said a hunnerd pages back, use it in good health
.

I don't have the energy to go into the 450's .... so here's this :D

https://i.imgur.com/pKcxD97l.jpg<strike>
</strike>

[Chaz]

Im sorry your 300x isn’t an appreciating asset. Neither is my 400r. The real math is that you could always take old junk and go as fast or faster than new stuff for cheaper. But it’s still old junk.


Old junk and newer old junk ..
Actually, mine probably were/are worth more than I paid for them. I bought one lower in Pompano Beach, the other in Atlanta .. the guts have been coated and
cryoed
, and have the "witch's nose" water pick-ups, new stainless driveshafts
and all the billet seal carrier stuff. If I told you what I have in them, you'd think I was lying.

Same goes for the 15" conversion's .. that I did myself. I think I did pay 750 each for the cowlings and pans. Cuz they were there, and as nice as the man said they were. I bought that stuff to beat the **** out of, not to make money on. I did that on the other ones I have done. My FNB brokerage account took a hit the day the twin towers fell. And were in the red until Trump took office. My dad went
thru

the crash of 1929 and thought I spent money foolishly. I thought he was out of touch. Having been thru

a bit of that myself, I'm not willing to go buy a newer motorhome, truck, and outboards for my boat. I noticed, that you now don't see the need to spend $60,000.00 for 50 more HP than you got now ... so much for inflation. :cheers:

Junk powerheads .. ohh it's worse than that !

I take the sleeves out of the blocks and put them in two groups. One just have
a small hole or window where a rod peaked outside .. the second group has windows and big doors poked thru them. The second group usually goin the .44c a pound pile. The way I pick a good one is I wait and see which block my kids dog takes a leak on .. I'll pizz on it for a week or so myself before I rush to a decision .. Once I made up my mind I roll it out from the overhang and let the rain and a can of Gunk do the pre-prep work ... ;)
Then weld up the window, hone the crank sealing ring area (they all trench out) gut the exhaust log, do my "behind the liner" transfer port work, bore the register of the welded hole .017 and drop a .020 sleeve in after I cut the ports on the mill and finish em all by hand, the other 5 get dropped in. Decked and bored .020 over. Sometimes I bore the block out a quarter of an inch before I put sleeves in it .. but that's a different deal .. billet heads, reed blocks, and reed adapter plates and all that ... junk :)

My biggest problem seems to be that, someone usually comes up and makes me an offer I can't refuse and it leaves in their truck .. then i gotta go thru the whole ritual of block selection all over again ... :D

I am having two more problems now that I think about it ..
#1) The custom rods I designed .. I have to buy 200 of them at a time. Which really isn't so bad, considering how many motors I can build for the price of a single 300R
#2) The other problem ,, Yea, I just got three blocks the other day .. that have
no holes, windows, curtains or doorways blown into them ..
It's foreign to me, but, I might even leave the sleeves in them and let
em

stay "inside the shop" till they get machined and built ... :nonod:
:thumbsup:

https://i.imgur.com/H2kUIyWl.jpg

[Turborr]

Are you talking about Dan from L&W from Ft. Lauderdale? He still builds bikes? He was just about untouchable in outlaw.


Thank you for making my point .... which was not too much meat on the bone, as far as fuel and spark tables.
I only mentioned can timing because it's easy to move the power around on a twin cam. If it was mine .. you know I'm not mature enough to stop there ... LOL
By 1976 maybe 77, George had a turbo/alky Z1 that could carry his grit's and gravy azz deep into the 8's @ over 155 mph.
The Man-Cup, PDRA Pro/Mod bikes of today are truly flying. But even though they seem to call all of them "Busa's" ... don't be surprised if you pulled the fairing off and find the tried and true GS platform underneath.
Dan Wagner who is in a lot of those vids, is from Ft. Lauderdale. He raced in the old Miami-Hollywood days, and at Moroso .. until he moved to N. Carolina. His game has improved 10 fold since the move ... I say good for him, he works hard and deserved a break .. :thumbsup:

Ifin ya ever get your hands on a 300R head .. bring it down. We will put it on the windmill and see what kind of numbers it can blow ... then it's simple math to transfer that into how much "power potential" it has .. my guess , it will not see 300 intake and 220 CFM exhaust .. :)

[Chaz]

Are you talking about Dan from L&W from Ft. Lauderdale? He still builds bikes? He was just about untouchable in outlaw.

Yes, L+W .. that's it. John Sach's .. Kim Morrell raced out of that shop if I remember correctly. Ralph Medrano worked / raced out of MTC in Cocoa Beach and between them, they had some good running bikes.
When we pulled in the "Seminole Hard-Rock" as a $3000.00 a race Q-16 class sponsor at Moroso, the bike guys wanted in. Of course, we let em in, they didn't stay long .. ;) When PDRA started getting big, a few of them moved to the Carolina's to be in the middle of it. I think Dan picked up the Al-Anabi (Qatar) Q-80 (Kuwait) and Drag965 (UEA) team's all at once ... LOL That's why I said ... he caught a good break .. :)

[Chaz]

mother mercury wants you to ditch the 300X and buy new 300R the push this by making repair parts hard to come by. Some day the 300R will get the same treatment.

That's when it will be time to buy em up .. cheap. And make two broke ones turn into one really good one .. :)

[powerabout]

That's when it will be time to buy em up .. cheap. And make two broke ones turn into one really good one .. :)
more business fro promarine and CRT, maybe they will make 300 blocks?

[Capt.Insane-o]

The x wasn't that great of a motor. A lot was left on the table with that one.

[Dave Strong]

The x wasn't that great of a motor. A lot was left on the table with that one.

But it had great potential.

Dave

[Chaz]

The x wasn't that great of a motor. A lot was left on the table with that one.

So I took a set of 14* Dart/Olds/GM part numbered heads to a friend of mines Cylinder head / manifold porting shop in Ft.Lauderdale to put fresh eyes them. He put a light spring on a pair of stems and took 5 or 6 readings on each side up to an inch of lift.
When he was done, he said grab one of those hemi heads (a pallet load of BAE heads)
and put in on this table .. he said, tell me what I should do to these to make them better. I said dude, your my teacher .. I don't really see anything that doesn't "look just right" .. He said exactly, I can't do anything to yours to make them any better either .. which made me feel a little better about the time I spend pouring rubber port molds , moving a wall or roofline up or over, bench testing it , pouring more rubber, changing the throat percentages ... etc etc etc ... and by then, I was finding and losing crumbs, no more big gains .. :)

My point .. It's hard for even the best to find improvement in highly developed pieces. But if you start out with a POS that was machined on 50 year old tooling by people who could give a **** about anything other than getting a paycheck. You could just about trip and fall into big gains in power and reliability ... ;) :D

[Double Rigged]

The x wasn't that great of a motor. A lot was left on the table with that one.

I agree but EPA pretty much killed any further hp gains from Mercury. Motor was going to be their 400hp two stroke.

[johnmiffco]

speed on water just released an article
new 2019 28 skater flat deck rigged with the new 300r 4 strokes
grant racing (which is 1 of the best out there setting up offshore race hulls) and with the mercury racing team
took boat to lake x couple weeks ago,,,,
and did full testing with many props and gear case changes,,,,1.6 and 1.7 ratios
the best it did was 114mph with 1 person and lighter on fuel
111 with 3 people and 1.6 gear,,,,,108 3 people and 1.7
in article shows all specs of props and gearing to mph and time to get there
so,,,,,now that's a new 28,,,,not old 90s model,,,,,new motors and the best people and props and cases
an old 90s 28 skater ((( little moisture in the core,,,mabe repaired a few times,,,painted a time or 2,,,ect,,,so prob a bit heavier
with 3.2 300xs common dialed in hull is 112-114,,,,some faster with bolt on parts and tune
with 3.0 300x common is 114-116,,,,and of course some faster 118-120
with the 2.5 280 common is 113-115,,,,,lighter motors and more rpm,,,
so now in 25 yrs of these 280/300 merc motors on same hull through the yrs
don't see much true difference of the new 4.6 4 stroke for the money
vrsing the (old junk) 2 strokes of yester yr,,,,,
280 being the simplest and lightest motor 380lbs to the 300 4 stroke ,,merc list at 515 but randy weighed with cowl @ 550lbs
now the 4 stroke is all we have new so gotta deal with it when want new
but ,,,,,,,,the old junk 2 stroke is simpler and can make big power very easily over stock trim for very little extra
for now ill stick with my 98 28 im restoring with 300x design motors,,,but are being bumped up with standalone, porting and comp,,,3.2 crank and 40 bore to 3.3 to pull larger prop and have less money spent on buying and building both motors than cost of 1 new 4 stroke
just my 2 cents

[mikesufka]

^^^

Very interesting !!! Thank you.

MDS

[Z06man]

Are the new Skaters slower or whats up . 28 Nordic went 113 with 300R . Every DW 28 Fat Cat has gone over 120 with 300s Heck with 4 of us Skater Dave , Brad Z. Myself and 1 more passenger we went 114 and was still climbing with Dave driving the boat the very 1st time. And we only had the Hill 5 Blades if only Mercury would loan me some of their 5 blades .

[johnmiffco]

don't have that answer on slower being new,,,,is flat deck with full wrap windshield vrsing older out of mold hulls
i just relayed the articles results of a lake x test session
of the new 28 with 300r and the common speeds of 25 yrs of same hull and 280 and 300x,xs
this thread is comparison of the 300r and 300xs on same hull and the 28 been around since the 90s through mercs yrs of motor designs

[Z06man]

I did not know it had a windshield just looked at the article That does slow them down always wanted to try the DW 28 without 1 but it is no fun installing and once it is on there you don't want to do it again .

[Davidlake]

The 28 Skater flat deck that was tested a Lake X was stated to weigh 5000#. That is approximately 1050# heavier than my 2013 28 Skater std. deck w/ Aero Marine windshield. I think the weight is the factor.

[Double Rigged]

I agree that at 5000lbs it is very heavy. Also need to note it is not a stock 28 configuration but a widened tunnel. The additional weight in a boat like that equates to about 2mph per 200lbs. Not to mention the downforce of the windshield. Lastly this is a real verified test done at Lake X with real information. Not a bunch of numbers being thrown around about what someone else's boat runs LOL. The DW 28 is not a fair comparison to the Skater as it is lighter and the sponsons are much more shallow on the angle of attach. I do not think the DW would run with the 28' in rough water. JMO

[johnmiffco]

agree ^^^^^^

[Trimmed Out15]

Total different boat then the classic 28 Skater. Not a fair test. Same boat different motors is the only fair test

[Z06man]

Randy has had 300xs and 300R on the same boat 21 and 25 . Steve's Bullet changed out on same boat Allison Bass boat posted his results with fuel load acceleration etc same boat .24 Skater changed over they all have posted there results . All had gains some way more than others. Dont know of people changing from 300X to the R. I probably will this year on my Twister . I have a 40 hour from new 04/05 300x with a brand new 1.62 from swapping out a 1.75 with carbon pan and cowl going up for sale this summer .

[Double Rigged]

Keep your 300x. There are advantages of the new motors in fuel mileage, being dock friendly etc. However if you prop your 300x for 7000 max rpm IMO the 300r will not keep up in acceleration. Problem is in order to get the top speed like the test showed you need the 1.60 gear and a large prop as the limit is 6400rpm. The guys at Lake X told me the sweet spot for the 300r is 6250 for max power. 33sec from 40-100 mph is pretty sad considering my boat will do it in around 20 seconds. I have no argument the the 300r is better than a 300xs. All day.

[Chaz]

Are the new Skaters slower or whats up . 28 Nordic went 113 with 300R . Every DW 28 Fat Cat has gone over 120 with 300s Heck with 4 of us Skater Dave , Brad Z. Myself and 1 more passenger we went 114 and was still climbing with Dave driving the boat the very 1st time. And we only had the Hill 5 Blades if only Mercury would loan me some of their 5 blades .

Every ... Over ... Still climbing .... ? On that day, it was a 114 MPH boat.



I was never able to get a real top end number as I had early 300R with 1.75 gear but it would pull that to the limiter with 4 in boat and fuel past 120 with 38 pitch hill 5 blade . Boat now has 1.60 gears and new hill 5 blades will be tried out buy Dave when it warms up . I did not think it would pull the 38s with 1.60 gear but had to try 1 day and got it to 120 at 5600 rpm in a river with a turn coming quick impressive for being way over propped .

It's tough sorting thru these two statements, but i take it that you could be loaded down with a 1:75 gear and it would zip right on up to 120 MPH and be on the limiter.

Then with a gear change to a 1:60 which works out to aprox. 500 RPM
(You didn't mention whether the other 3 were with you again, but saying ...
"I had to try it" lends the idea you went out alone)
But now with less weight, it won't pull the mule, lose's 800 RPM , but ran the same 120 MPH.

Now you (or Dave) bought a different set of wheels to get back the RPM you lost with the gear change ... going by your numbers, it looks like it's going to run 120 on the limiter ... once again. Unless you totally missed it ( which I don't believe you did) Here's why ... :smiletest:

Any engine 2 stroke , 4 stroke , that has an early ( or flat ) torque peak, will be past the meat of the curve at high RPM. No way around it.
One having more displacement than the other will tend to mask the horsepower brick wall a little better. But in the end, swapping prop's, gears etc. will have you dancing around the wall, optimizing. You'll get everything except for the ability to breathe up top and the speed from horsepower that come's along with it .. :thumbsup:

BTW .. that was a beautiful boat :cheers:

[Z06man]

I never got to run the boat alone with a 1.60 gear with any other prop than the 38s that I had with the 1.75 and that was in the river with no long straigts. I did run the boat several times before getting 1.60s with 750lbs passenger weight to 120 with 38s and 1.75 on the limiter but buy the time I got a set of 34 and 36s and 1.60s boat sold but I can tell you the slip numbers went down with the 1.60 and 34s .Boat with the 4 of us with new 1.60s and 34s was only turning close to 6k at 114 and pulling when the new owner backed off if memory serves me correct Brad Z may chime in he was in the back.I know all props are not exactly what pitch they claim .They are a great boat but I had a chance to build a new 32 DW so I took it but it wont be my last 28DW Fat Cat. And a 28 Skater is probably a better rough water boat but the 28DW has a windshield is fully capped and runs over 120 and has no wood and accelerates faster IMO . They are both great boats and I have had Skaters also not a hater built my garage and boat house to fit a 28 Skater .But when I saw the 28DW I was sold on the looks and it performed great.

[Double Rigged]

Same here Z06man, the DW's are awesome boats. No doubt about it and the 300r is a great motor too. Just for me or IMO anyone that has healthy 300x's I do not think the performance is better let alone worth the money unless you are dependent upon having a warranty and cannot fix your own stuff. I would be a 28' DW would have to run at least 125-128 with a pair of properly set up 300x's. My buddies 28' Skater runs in the mid 120's all day with them. Boat is 2017 Classic deck with 15" motors new out of the box.

[mikesufka]

I hope to get a chance to ride in Daves DW28 ( former ZO6man's ) boat this summer. Looks like a super wicked ride.

MDS

[Z06man]

Yes the X motors are great and mine is running well. I started this about 300XS VS 300R on same boat .But it went way south , But I did notice grant in his testing found what I was saying that boat was faster and slip went down with 1.60 vs the 1.75 111 @ 6300 with 1.75 and 114 @ 6355 with 1.60 and 34s on paper boat should have been slower with gear change if max power is below both RPM numbers. The first and only props I ever ran on the boat was the Hill 5 blade starting with the 38s it would have been nice to had time and pull to test at the lake but I have only tested at the lake once years ago and it was KOOL .I did not have 2 days and the Merc prop factory and for sure don't have Grants exp. and knowledge . The boat has more in it but that is for Joe P. and Skater Dave to do this summer . By the way Joe showed pics of Over Kill interior it is awesome hope you dont mind something looking close in my new boat , it is hard to pick patterns and colors and know what it will turn out like .

[Double Rigged]

No worries on the interior. I worked hard on designing it and it was fun. Use a program called pixelolator and drew on some photographs to find what i want.

[Brad Zastrow]

[QUOTE=Chaz;3190972]Every ... Over ... Still climbing .... ? On that day, it was a 114 MPH boat.




I was in the boat that day. Dave had about 5 mins drive time in the boat on a test ride. He was NOT doing a top speed test. He was simply trying to find the sweet spot for the trim at higher speed. We were shocked when I looked at the GPS and saw 114 when he backed off and it had a lot more rpm left in the 300R's. I really believe the boat will run close to 130 with some setup. Not sure Dave wants to find out. I personally have no real interest anymore in seeing how fast I can run a small boat. I have been close to 180 in my old 39 MTI and happy to say I lived. Anything over 100mph in any size boat is fast and bad things can happen quickly. What I will say is the 300R's are driver friendly the 28 DW is a great looking and fun boat.

[Markus]

I built my garage and boat house to fit a 28 Skater .But when I saw the 28DW I was sold on the looks and it performed great.

What are the dimensions of the garage and boat house? Does the 28DW fit?

[John S]

I agree but EPA pretty much killed any further hp gains from Mercury. Motor was going to be their 400hp two stroke.

Where were they going to find 400hp in that motor? Adding displacement? I don't think the 3.2xs motor was near 400, was it? And that had better (modern) fuel management. They didn't sound near as cool as twin 2.5's anyways. :D

[Capt.Insane-o]

The exhaust chest and to a lesser extent porting