260 Big Bore mystery motors??????

[PaulR]

Looking for some info on a couple of 260's I picked up sold as parts motors. I can take apart and assemble these motors but I don't know much about bore sizes and porting and that type of thing. I've had a lot of 260's and Drags over the years but I've never seen anything like these two. They have Bridgeport style o-ring steel sleeves with a 3.640 bore with custom installed support bridges in the block. The pistons have a domed center and one head has an offset chamber. The heads are stamped port and starboard.

The top of both blocks have been cut into for what looks like a specific reason then welded up. Both water cavities have a tube welded into them and the water jacket by the exhaust divider has been milled out completely, stock has three hole drilled in those slots.

I posted some of these pics in another thread and
Erik Kiser mentioned the name
Alex Hledin as a possible builder? I'd like to possibly bring one of these motors back to life as the pistons look pretty good in one of them but I have no clue where to start looking for a sleeve or new rings. I need one sleeve for sure or I could use one from the other block?

[Capt.Insane-o]

The sleeves may have come from Alex, but the welding and umm..machine work is pretty crude to be from his shop..

[rock]

.015 over 3 liter sleeves in a 2.5 block with a bridged exhaust port. Don't see that every day.

Rock

[HStream1]

That looks like some Gordon Montigue work. I remember Chaz and i were having a conversation a couple years ago about Gordon having this idea.

[PaulR]

Few more pics, one is of a stock 2.5 piston in the cylinder

[Michael J Giesler]

Alex did stuff like that but he absolutely didn't do that welding if I ever can get up by you I will check it out Gene did a couple of experimental motors like that too check with RBT I think he may have had one like this but a 2.0

[RBT]

Alex Hledin.

[PaulR]

I did some research on the name Alex Hledin here on S&F but most of the threads are fairly old. What are the chances of getting sleeves for these things and are the pistons a limited run or are they a production piston...OMC???

[rock]

Hledin has built a lot of performance stuff. I had 1 of his 6 pack intakes and a set of dual plug 21cc heads. All on a nitrous Bridgeport Moorman built many moons ago.

Rock

[AZMIDLYF]

Hledin facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/Engine-Performance-Parts-343376959165919/

[cali kid]

Sleeves and pistons all look custom built. Nothing I see looks too trashed. Why not piece one together with the best parts and see how it runs. Looks awesome to me. Somebody did a heck of allot of work there. Do you have the full operating systems to go with them? Subscribed.

[PaulR]

Sleeves and pistons all look custom built. Nothing I see looks too trashed. Why not piece one together with the best parts and see how it runs. Looks awesome to me. Somebody did a heck of allot of work there. Do you have the full operating systems to go with them? Subscribed.

I just got them apart over the weekend, but that's the plan as of now. I have everything, motors were complete without lowers, but nothing special, just horn motors with stock flywheels.

[cali kid]

Should be a real torque monster. Keep us posted.

[RBT]

PTR, performance through research. Alex Hledin, when mod-u was big he did some wild stuff and made huge hp. The 2.7 was a torque monster but had reliability issues. They would be interesting to see with a proper fuel map as one downfall was lack of effective fueling.
PTR is still at the top of the heap and very prominent in UIM F1, his current motors are pretty cool.

[PaulR]

I just looked over the blocks and I hate to cannibalize one to fix the other. The more modified motor turned over and all the pistons look fine, the issue with it is one sleeve is partly broken by the o-ring so it needs to be replaced. The other motor was stuck but no pistons were melted. These were used in saltwater and one piston was rusted in place along with the wrist pin bearings, also one cylinder is oversized.

At minimum I would need 3 sleeves 1 piston 2 full sets of rings and 2 sets of o-rings as far as custom parts go.

I don't use Facebook so I have no way to contact PTR

[PaulR]

Both ECUs have custom chips in them but both have issues. These motors were on offshore mids and were a set of triples on a Skater that was bought from a government auction out of FL.

[AZMIDLYF]

I just looked over the blocks and I hate to cannibalize one to fix the other. The more modified motor turned over and all the pistons look fine, the issue with it is one sleeve is partly broken by the o-ring so it needs to be replaced. The other motor was stuck but no pistons were melted. These were used in saltwater and one piston was rusted in place along with the wrist pin bearings, also one cylinder is oversized.

At minimum I would need 3 sleeves 1 piston 2 full sets of rings and 2 sets of o-rings as far as custom parts go.

I don't use Facebook so I have no way to contact PTR

#514-835-8156

[aussief1]

there is obviousley an overlap between the exhaust and transfer port through the wrist pin hole on the southern end . i can see a potential power loss in this area.
any high performance gurus out there like to chime in on this?

[aussief1]

well thats dissapointing

[RBT]

there is obviousley an overlap between the exhaust and transfer port through the wrist pin hole on the southern end . i can see a potential power loss in this area.
any high performance gurus out there like to chime in on this?
use a capped wrist pin

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

use a capped wrist pin
We make a wrist pin cap set that would solve your issue,developed them to add crankcase stuffing...sounds like just what you need,Chris

[aussief1]

thanks chris, do you have any photos on file?thanks

[Ryan140]

wizard makes an encapsulated pin. pro marine sells them.
http://wizardraceshop.com/index.php/products/lightweight-wrist-pins/

[Chaz]

thanks chris, do you have any photos on file?thanks

I can only speak for his 3.0L set-up .. Picture this if you will ... :thumbsup:

His reed block spacer kit, while adding 4.5cc to the intake side volume, the block displaces double that on the crankcase side.

https://i.imgur.com/ctnLgr9l.jpg

4.5 x 2 (min) = 9 cc Dyno proven to be worth 7 HP

https://i.imgur.com/ti1sUNol.jpg

The kit and more importantly, the installation instructions .. are sound.

A stock 3.0L pin holds 13.5 cc's lightweight versions ... even more.

https://i.imgur.com/FLJ52UYl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oxYsuCbl.jpg

9 + 13.5 = 22.5 cc total volume displaced from the crankcase .
Now anything is possible when you go on the pump, and your results may vary. But if the trend and the logic that goes with it, holds true. Both kits together should be worth an honest 15 HP.

https://i.imgur.com/y49m5IHl.jpg

[laser_ED]

Chaz,your information on CC reed spacers is very interesting.What do they do to help the performance {how do they work}.Do the spacers work only on stock motors.....Ed

[Chaz]

A 3.0L Merc is a half a dozen 500cc motors joined together. Each one has a fairly wide x flat reed block tunnel that looks nothing like a carburetor bore, but does yield itself well to stacking a six pack tightly together. The crankcase lower area, rod slot (choke) and then two pretty well hidden main transfer port windows in the upper crankcase area. Lots of places for fuel / oil droplets to fall out of suspension.
With large areas come slow-moving columns of air. You can still build power with oversize ports and purpose directed port roof angles.

If you look at 500cc class motorcycle crankcases. Compact in size with well placed, easy access transfer windows. Take the plug out, or pull the head and kick it over, the crankcase pressure escaping as the transfer ports open is all business. Get the ports too big and it blows the charge out the exhaust . Make to much pressure and power will go down from heating the air and pumping losses.

Outboards are pretty archaic by design, anytime you can improve column reaction to pressure change , you will make more power. Unless you aim the port roofs up and twords the exhaust outlet. Because unlike the dirt bike, an outboard has no real way to recover a lost charge. Like anything else, it can be pushed to the point of diminishing returns .. but for your basic outboard, you'd have to work real hard to get to that place ... Got crankcase boost .. :thumbsup:

https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/07/22/98372/s1200_maico_490_mega2_1981.jpg

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.5QHJuVkp9OCXjce5f687bwHaFj&pid=Api&P=0&w=201&h=151 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrExdyyKyJejJQAPcVjCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIyaTh1amtqBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM3N2U4N2UwZGM3ZTA2MTFiM WU1MzY4OWM5Y2IzYjIzYwRncG9zAzQEaXQDYmluZw--/RV=2/RE=1579326515/RO=11/RU=http%3a%2f%2f4.bp.blogspot.com%2f-scHLZ89BzdI%2fUGd5IM8sfDI%2fAAAAAAAABwQ%2fLDagvILoffE%2fs1600%2fIMGP5358.JPG/RK=0/RS=D5NVWZgmm5XDVs44NnX1nxB0wHU-)

https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2014/11/03/69486/s1200_arlan2.jpg

I would have never guessed that the "3 exhaust ports" deal would have ever worked without short-circuiting the fresh charge. Once again, the transfer roofs need to be flat and open with authority.

http://www.wbm-zweitakter.de/EigeneBilder/MeineMopeds/RD/Nebenaus.JPG

https://www.diymotofix.com/uploads/2/7/9/7/27975509/transfer-port-flow-into-the-cylinder_orig.png

[texasvector]

We make a wrist pin cap set that would solve your issue,developed them to add crankcase stuffing...sounds like just what you need,Chris

you only cap 1 end like the wizard? or both

[Chaz]

you only cap 1 end like the wizard? or both

Both ....

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

give a call,I can fix you up,Chris

[PaulR]

I confirmed today that Alex Hledin built these motors! I've been texting with someone that works with Alex and it turns out they still have parts even though Alex hasn't built a 2.7 in 20 years! I found out that the welding on top of both blocks is because they had to open that area up so they could weld the block in the water cavity because the bigger sleeve went into the water cavity then they welded the block back up. The ECU chip is a custom curve Alex came up with but as RBT said it wasn't reliable. I was told to use a Champ ECU at full rich. The heads are from molds Alex made! The tube at the bottom of the block was put in for strength, they said these can make 400hp+

I'm going to ship both blocks up to Alex, who better to fix them!!!

[Rodney Nance]

:iagree:

[Dave S]

A Dark huoesbb down under....I have only thought that a air powwed moter is such as to the volume/ cid wiil pruce.... wihin the limits of air folw....yet I am standinn.... netx to the speaker of the hourr

[Dave S]

Yes... ya need a RUSH code ring to defict my posts......jus t sayin.....HeeHee......

[Capt.Insane-o]

Hopefully his welder has a better day. :)

[PaulR]

Hopefully his welder has a better day. :)

Blocks were built 20 years ago...he said they’ve come a long way since then.

[cali kid]

I confirmed today that Alex Hledin built these motors! I've been texting with someone that works with Alex and it turns out they still have parts even though Alex hasn't built a 2.7 in 20 years! I found out that the welding on top of both blocks is because they had to open that area up so they could weld the block in the water cavity because the bigger sleeve went into the water cavity then they welded the block back up. The ECU chip is a custom curve Alex came up with but as RBT said it wasn't reliable. I was told to use a Champ ECU at full rich. The heads are from molds Alex made! The tube at the bottom of the block was put in for strength, they said these can make 400hp+

I'm going to ship both blocks up to Alex, who better to fix them!!!Wow! Can't wait to hear more

[AZMIDLYF]

Yeah, this just got very interesting.

[Capt.Insane-o]

I put something similar together a few years ago and tried carbing it. Pretty good exercise in futility and definitely should have went efi.

[patchesII]

I put something similar together a few years ago and tried carbing it. Pretty good exercise in futility and definitely should have went efi.

ALWAYS ALWAYS go EFI:D

[Capt.Insane-o]

Yea..i built it out of a 245 and didn't have a spare front at the time. Ran like a mf'r up until the carbs would say nope.

[Dave S]

So I am thinking... carbs are limited...as cfm.. oyer a common air box.....So how about 12 pack.... other than jettin issues?

[Dave S]

To all that.....know... the red book.... jennins.....yes to ports over ports......but it's a new world of..... I am sorry to say4strokemadness.....turbo or huffed.....the times are a changn.....MaxFrost....ntrooooppers.... shown my adg.... no my intleck...

[AZMIDLYF]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw6RyYwX5a0

:D

[Chaz]

They sometimes break thru where the sleeves from the opposing bank end at the bottom and cause a side to side crankcase leak.

The sleeves appear to be in crooked. High at the exhaust port and sunk below deck straight across. O-rings normally sit partially on the sleeve and partially on the register.
Digital pictures can be misleading, might want to check it out with a straight edge, before jumping off too deep in those blocks.

https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=455936&d=1578440286

[Chaz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw6RyYwX5a0

:D

Growing up in South Florida, I've had to learn many languages ...
English, Spanglish, Ebonic's, Rasta, Haitian, and Bahamian .. so learning Dave S. is by far the simplest. Here is a quickie course ... :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdPcjIrSvcs

[PaulR]

Any of you FL guys ever hear of Andrew Martin? Supposedly these motors were on a 32’ Skater with triples that was repoed 10 years ago. That jives with the story I was told by the guy I got them from.

[Michael J Giesler]

I confirmed today that Alex Hledin built these motors! I've been texting with someone that works with Alex and it turns out they still have parts even though Alex hasn't built a 2.7 in 20 years! I found out that the welding on top of both blocks is because they had to open that area up so they could weld the block in the water cavity because the bigger sleeve went into the water cavity then they welded the block back up. The ECU chip is a custom curve Alex came up with but as RBT said it wasn't reliable. I was told to use a Champ ECU at full rich. The heads are from molds Alex made! The tube at the bottom of the block was put in for strength, they said these can make 400hp+

I'm going to ship both blocks up to Alex, who better to fix them!!!

I can't wait to see this when it's done would make a awesome motor for the ally

[PaulR]

LOL! I can barely drive the Ally with the powerhead that’s on it now!

[RBT]

Any of you FL guys ever hear of Andrew Martin? Supposedly these motors were on a 32’ Skater with triples that was repoed 10 years ago. That jives with the story I was told by the guy I got them from.
I do and that makes sense now

[Michael J Giesler]

LOL! I can barely drive the Ally with the powerhead that’s on it now!

Don't worry I got you covered I can give you lessons

[PaulR]

Well it has been a loooong journey but there has been great progress and a ton of questions answered. The object was to clean them up and put the best parts in them possible so we can see how they run. They have come a long way and are ready to go back together......this should get interesting! Covid is a bitch but Verdi rods and big bearing drag cranks makes up for it!!

Ugly welds are gone!

[Michael J Giesler]

Well it has been a loooong journey but there has been great progress and a ton of questions answered. The object was to clean them up and put the best parts in them possible so we can see how they run. They have come a long way and are ready to go back together......this should get interesting! Covid is a bitch but Verdi rods and big bearing drag cranks makes up for it!!

Ugly welds are gone!

I wonder where you got the cranks and rods from 🤔 I can't wait to run this motor at Jasper:D

[PaulR]

We made some progress over the weekend thanks to Schramer, I put him to work! Now before anyone comments on the pistons...they are NOT upside down, these are custom ground for the porting and all we can figure is when they ground them they had them in a jig or something with the writing down so they go in the way we have them without a doubt!!

[PaulR]

I wonder where you got the cranks and rods from 樂 I can't wait to run this motor at Jasper:D

Thanks Mike for getting me the parts, not easy to find!

[Capt.Insane-o]

I stared at my first set of Verdi rods for hours. A few things about these motors.. I hope you drilled the piston to oil the bridges...hopefully you relieved the bridges a thou..and keep them a little warm.

[RBT]

I stared at my first set of Verdi rods for hours. A few things about these motors.. I hope you drilled the piston to oil the bridges...hopefully you relieved the bridges a thou..and keep them a little warm.
Bridges are water cooled

[Capt.Insane-o]

Ooo I see now....also something else.