1990 Johnson gt-200 ignition issue

[Fastfishinmd]

Okay I have this motor driving me crazy it runs from 600-5400 rpm just very poor acceleration. It has a weak,irratic spark above 1500 rpm on all coils simultaneously. Has all new cdi electronics ignition system plugs,coils,spark plug wires,power pack, regulator, trigger,stator, complete wire harness,brand new battery per cdi electronics spec basically everything minus the flywheel is new and tested to be good. So far what I have narrowed it down to is flywheel/stator but everything is literally perfect and tests perfect magnets are great and flywheel looks new. What I have found is I'm getting irratic dva voltages coming from the ignition coils but only above 1500 rpm. Please help I can't really believe it is the flywheel and the stator tests 100%.

[BOATMANBLUES]

check to see if somebody glued a magnet or two in upside down....notched corner goes toward the block....

[Nitro25]

What voltages are you getting out of the charge coil to the pack and at the coil primary?

[Fastfishinmd]

What voltages are you getting out of the charge coil to the pack and at the coil primary?

At idle the dva on the orange wires at the coils from the power pack are 175-220v and stable on all six at idle. As I increase rpm it becomes erratic anywhere from 0-1000v on all 6 cylinders simultaneously and missfire is visible with inductive timing light. So then I tested the output from the stator as instructed by cdi electronics manual at idle everything is in spec and stable until I increase rpm at which time the voltages from the primary coils becomes erratic and unstable from 0-1200v. I will also add that all ignition components have been resistance tested and are within spec. All testing done with the regulator disconnected as recommended by cdi electronics.

[Nitro25]

At idle the dva on the orange wires at the coils from the power pack are 175-220v and stable on all six at idle. As I increase rpm it becomes erratic anywhere from 0-1000v on all 6 cylinders simultaneously and missfire is visible with inductive timing light. So then I tested the output from the stator as instructed by cdi electronics manual at idle everything is in spec and stable until I increase rpm at which time the voltages from the primary coils becomes erratic and unstable from 0-1200v. I will also add that all ignition components have been resistance tested and are within spec. All testing done with the regulator disconnected as recommended by cdi electronics.

So, the charge coil becomes erratic coming off of idle also?

[Fastfishinmd]

check to see if somebody glued a magnet or two in upside down....notched corner goes toward the block....

Flywheel literally looks new. The motor was never touched freshwater motor from Arizona it's clean. All my testing leads me to flywheel but it is a better looking flywheel than anything I can find forsale and don't really want to waste $250+ on a lesser flywheel just for testing.

[Fastfishinmd]

So, the charge coil becomes erratic coming off of idle also?

Yes

[Motv18]

What altitude in az , Ive seen 5000ft literally crush components and packs. Some recover with time (few days) if affected,and also check the jets if it’s a high altitude.

[Nitro25]

As Boatmanblues suggested, I'd take a real close look at those magnets and be sure their phased in the right polarity. The problem's genesis seems to start with charge coil for sure. A glass bead machine zink chromate and Black lacquer will make a flywheel look pretty every time. Can you swap out C/C with the old one, or is that one shot?

[Fastfishinmd]

What altitude in az , Ive seen 5000ft literally crush components and packs. Some recover with time (few days) if affected,and also check the jets if it’s a high altitude.

It was from Arizona I have it in Maryland and all new ignition components were replaced here. Jets are correct according to parts manual carbs are spotless running Holley red fuel pump running premix plugs read very rich visual raw fuel coming from exhaust. Good Even compression on all 6 cylinders. Visual missfire with inductive timing light.

[powerabout]

does it have a wet cell battery, if it doesnt just borrow one to re test.
what spark plugs are in it?

[Fastfishinmd]

does it have a wet cell battery, if it doesnt just borrow one to re test.
what spark plugs are in it?

Has a deka marine starting battery 1000cca per cdi electronics recommendations champion ql77jc4

[Nitro25]

Disconnect kill switch circuit (Black with yellow tracer wire) back at the pack and test again.

[Motv18]

Some time the parts are bad out of the box.

Thing is the magnet thing should show from the start. I’m thinking this is more gap based.

Check the clearance of mags to stator they might not match. (Think 40a vs 16a)

[Fastfishinmd]

As Boatmanblues suggested, I'd take a real close look at those magnets and be sure their phased in the right polarity. The problem's genesis seems to start with charge coil for sure. A glass bead machine zink chromate and Black lacquer will make a flywheel look pretty every time. Can you swap out C/C with the old one, or is that one shot?
Original charge coil failed resistance test but do work only issue it's the same problem with the original aswell just the numbers are slightly different because of change in resistances

[powerabout]

I had a new engine with faulty flywheel way back in 80's it caused missfire about 3000 rpm, idled fine.

[powerabout]

Disconnect kill switch circuit (Black with yellow tracer wire) back at the pack and test again.
both of them, there are 2

[Fastfishinmd]

Disconnect kill switch circuit (Black with yellow tracer wire) back at the pack and test again.

Done all the same

[Fastfishinmd]

I had a new engine with faulty flywheel way back in 80's it caused missfire about 3000 rpm, idled fine.

Thank you atleast I know I may not be insane in thinking it could be this flywheel.

[Nitro25]

It almost sounds like it's trying to go into S.L.O.W. Mode. Disconnect temp sensors on cylinder heads, and try again.

[Nitro25]

both of them, there are 2

Yes Both, totally isolate pack from kill circuit.

[Nitro25]

Ok, let me get this straight. The flywheel is original and came with the motor, and is the only component that has not been changed. Everything else is CDI, (Pack & Stator) Timer base is original. The problem started after change out? Or this problem is what you're trying resolve? Are you doing tests in the water or on a hose?

[Nitro25]

I had a new engine with faulty flywheel way back in 80's it caused missfire about 3000 rpm, idled fine.

Yep ... The crossflow V6's had bad flywheels right out of the box. Enging couldn't get full RPM. The way you troubleshot this was to run WOT and hit trim "Up" and the engine would lose about 600 - 1000 RPM. Weak Magnets. The alt would steal from charge coils to try and satisfy the increased amp load of the trim motor trying to trim the engine.

[Fastfishinmd]

It almost sounds like it's trying to go into S.L.O.W. Mode. Disconnect temp sensors on cylinder heads, and try again.

Done no change

[Nitro25]

Is the timer base stock, or CDI Too?

And you're getting scatter on all cyls and not just one bank.

[Fastfishinmd]

Is the timer base stock, or CDI Too?

And you're getting scatter on all cyls and not just one bank.

Yes scattered misfires on all 6 plugs new trigger and new trigger resistance tests good. original trigger failed resistance tests. Okay alittle run down here. at idle all 6 coils have a strong great spark jumps 1/2in+ gap as I increase the rpm at almost exactly 1500 rpm the flash on the timing light all of a sudden changes and the tach shows half the rpm so basically I'm reading the rpm like this hopefully you understand this. Starting at idle and increasing rpm to 1200-1250-1300-1350-1400-1450-750-800-850-900 and so on but my tach is reading correctly if it says 2000rpm on the tach my timing light will only be flashing and saying 1000rpm but at 1400 on the tach both the tach and the timing light read the same also the timing mark and pointer are alinged flywheel is indexed the idle timing is correct WOT timing is correct tested at 5000 rpm (under load). Timing on all six plugs is correct. And I have verified that the timing light is reading correctly it's been tested on other outboards and has no issues. Basically everything is correct flywheel trigger magnet is tight and visually perfect and all magnets are strong and correctly spaced and oriented. Now one thing I have not mentioned someone said something about slow mode i eliminated that from happening. Although if I hammer it out of the hole up to wot (5400rpm) but you can feel it's rough at that rpm and something isn't right and almost everytime i do this and run more than 10 secs without throttling back down it will all of a sudden out of nowhere drop to 1500-2000 rpm and will not rev with the throttle at wide open position but all I have to do is return to idle then hammer back down as fast as I can. This takes me mabey 5 secs I don't even come off plane and when I do this most of the time it will run flawless and powerful unless I stop and return to idle or shut the motor off. Hopefully this all makes sense.

[Fastfishinmd]

Also this is the second power pack because the first replacement pack gave the same problem we thought it was trying to go into slow mode. FYI new main harness and the diode in the harness tests good

[Nitro25]

Yes scattered misfires on all 6 plugs new trigger and new trigger resistance tests good. original trigger failed resistance tests. Okay alittle run down here. at idle all 6 coils have a strong great spark jumps 1/2in+ gap as I increase the rpm at almost exactly 1500 rpm the flash on the timing light all of a sudden changes and the tach shows half the rpm so basically I'm reading the rpm like this hopefully you understand this. Starting at idle and increasing rpm to 1200-1250-1300-1350-1400-1450-750-800-850-900 and so on but my tach is reading correctly if it says 2000rpm on the tach my timing light will only be flashing and saying 1000rpm but at 1400 on the tach both the tach and the timing light read the same also the timing mark and pointer are alinged flywheel is indexed the idle timing is correct WOT timing is correct tested at 5000 rpm (under load). Timing on all six plugs is correct. And I have verified that the timing light is reading correctly it's been tested on other outboards and has no issues. Basically everything is correct flywheel trigger magnet is tight and visually perfect and all magnets are strong and correctly spaced and oriented. Now one thing I have not mentioned someone said something about slow mode i eliminated that from happening. Although if I hammer it out of the hole up to wot (5400rpm) but you can feel it's rough at that rpm and something isn't right and almost everytime i do this and run more than 10 secs without throttling back down it will all of a sudden out of nowhere drop to 1500-2000 rpm and will not rev with the throttle at wide open position but all I have to do is return to idle then hammer back down as fast as I can. This takes me mabey 5 secs I don't even come off plane and when I do this most of the time it will run flawless and powerful unless I stop and return to idle or shut the motor off. Hopefully this all makes sense.


Well you're all kinds of fun! Pretty much rules out flywheel. Did this happen before you changed trigger? And when you disabled kill circuit did do it at the Pack?

1) disable shift switch and try it again

2) Start engine, pull apart main engine Red Cannon plug after engine is running, and test. You'll have to plug cannon plug back in to kill engine.
If this solves the problem there's a partial short in the control harness. Disconnect signal wire on tack and retest with harness plugged in.

[BOATMANBLUES]

two more things to check...the timer base magnet on the inner hub could have come loose and rotated...this throws your timing all out of whack...
also check the flywheel part numbers....the 86-87 small bores used a different flywheel and the inner t-base magnets are clocked differently...
also a different timerbase...

[Nitro25]

Forget disabling tach, I was thinking of something else, but run the plud out test.

[Fastfishinmd]

Well you're all kinds of fun! Pretty much rules out flywheel. Did this happen before you changed trigger? And when you disabled kill circuit did do it at the Pack?

1) disable shift switch and try it again

2) Start engine, pull apart main engine Red Cannon plug after engine is running, and test. You'll have to plug cannon plug back in to kill engine.
If this solves the problem there's a partial short in the control harness. Disconnect signal wire on tack and retest with harness plugged in.

Oh it's fun that's for sure done and done no difference with either the main plug unplugged or shift interupt switch disconnected FYI this is a jet outboard so the interupt switch is never used. This has been the issue with the motor since the day I purchased it without knowing of this problem it had great spark and good even compression how bad can it be LMAO here we are over a year later

[Fastfishinmd]

Nitro could you please explain why my previous post rules out the flywheel thanks

[Nitro25]

Well basically a flywheel is static, it does not change. And what your describing is electrical/electronics. When it drops from 5500 down to 2500 or so, and then you can recover by manipulating the throttle, flywheel can't do that. It sure sounds like a timer base or pack trying to go into SLOW.

Does this happen with the reg. out of circuit?

[Nitro25]

What's your complete model #

[racer]

One thing I noticed is you mentioned 0 to 1000V on the orange wires. These are your quick start wires not your ignition charge coils those are brown. The charge coils also will not make any where close to a 1000V so something else is wrong. What is your voltage at the ignition coil when running 1000RPM and again at 2500, if your meter is correct you should have between 150 and 200 at 1000RPM and go up to about 240 at 2500

[Fastfishinmd]

Well basically a flywheel is static, it does not change. And what your describing is electrical/electronics. When it drops from 5500 down to 2500 or so, and then you can recover by manipulating the throttle, flywheel can't do that. It sure sounds like a timer base or pack trying to go into SLOW.

Does this happen with the reg. out of circuit?

Yes it does this with the regulator disconnected aswell

[Nitro25]

Yes it does this with the regulator disconnected aswell

You isolated the "Yellow" wires from the alternator to the regulator and not the Red output wire ... right?

[Fastfishinmd]

Okay so here's an update talked with cdi electronics I am to send the entire ignition system including the flywheel to them they are going to install it on their test motor to find the issue if they can't I'm done with it so let me know if you are interested in parts I will be making deals

[Fastfishinmd]

You isolated the "Yellow" wires from the alternator to the regulator and not the Red output wire ... right?

Yes

[Nitro25]

That! ... Was my next idea. The people at CDI are Great! They will go above and beyond what we call service today.

Side Story: I had a 70 Hp 3cyl Evinrude come to my shop with a DEAD MISS! No doubt about it ... This thing had a DEAD MISS!! So I started pullin plug wires to find the bad hole. Pulled #1, no change, #2, no change, and #3 ... NO CHANGE! But There was a dead miss you could not deny!

It was the Pack! For some reason it would not fire all three. And when you would pull a firing cylinder, it would pick up the offending cylinder!


I sent that pack to the OMC training center in Sawgrass Fl. So they could have some fun with their students in the test cells.

Electrons do funny things!

Please get back to us when CDI figures out what's amiss!

Thanks;

D.

[Fastfishinmd]

I will make sure to update the post with the findings thanks for all the help

[Krazymaan]

I had the exact same issue. Spent a summer chasing it. Bought all brand new CDI digital stuff racing stuff. was better but not quite right. Ended up being the internal timing magnets had a few cracks in them. Nothing to do with the outer magnets. Reluctantly bought a new flywheel and the problem was solved. On a timing light they were sparking willy nilly. I have a few videos on youtube showing the issue. But it sounds just like what I went through. If anyone has ever put a flywheel puller on the flywheel and gave it a whack with a hammer, that's all it takes to crack 29 yr old magnets.

[Nitro25]

Hey Krazzymaan

So what you're saying is that the ferrite magnet is fractured behind the shield and not visible in the trigger windows, and in you're case the shield did not migrate out of phase? ... We had all kinds of weird problems with flywheels, but usually with the windows migrating out of phase. If the magnet fractured vertical, it would create a new set N/S poles, but you would think the stainless window shield would mute, or dampen the lines of influence. But if the fracture was horizontal passing across the face of the trigger window, you would have two new sets of poles who's lines if influence would run 90* out, who knows what the trigger would see. I have a PC microscope that I use for circuit boards that could see that.

D.

[Nitro25]

How can we find your video?

[Krazymaan]

How can we find your video?

I just looked for them, they dont seem to exist anymore on youtube.