View Full Version : Outboard Exhaust Tuning - Who Did It Best?
Gordon02
08-20-2019, 11:10 PM
I've been wanting to start this thread for a while now. A recent post in a Mercury V6 History thread on the origins of the 2 x 4 inline Mercury motivated me.
I've owned 40+ outboards and am currently restoring two Chrysler 72 CI 3 cylinder outboards. I'm also building my own 2.0L V6 Mercury project and the ProMax SS on my Allison that I've owned for 20 years is just flawless. Having said all this, my absolute favorite outboard of all time is the 3 cylinder 70 horse Johnson - I've owned two - one in 1980 and one now, both are just pleasant motors.
The 49 CI 3 cylinder Johnson/Evinrude series used a Tuned Exhaust like you see below. I've always preferred 3's and 6's simply because the engineers normally build the crankshafts to fire 120 degrees apart thus giving the exhaust time/room to evacuate in even pulses. The 3 cylinder OMC's took it even further - they have cast channels in the exhaust that created "equal-length" tubes. These and the old "bubble backs" used in the hotter OMC V-4's like the 135/140's are designed to make the length from port to the exhaust plate equal. I have not seen these used in the Mercury in-lines nor the V6's. I never understood OMC's use of the heavy cross-flow pistons in the V-4's while at the same time designing elaborate exhaust bubble back manifolds. While not a V-4 fan, my two V-4's screamed - all 99 cubic inches of them.
Not including racing engines, what other production makes/models have creative performance designs that make them somewhat remarkable? There are enough engineers and builders here to know which outboards had something special - I'd love to hear about them! Thanks, Gordon
447089447090
powerabout
08-20-2019, 11:33 PM
the 3 cyl omc works great for production work under 6k but when you go over it seems the log style makes more power or is it just a function of getting the exhaust out?
I can't one eye open, you'll enjoy the F5 and 72° spacing with its manifold. The independent tuned stacker pipes CHRYSLER. The triples as above or V6. Regular old L4 chest too. Port to port timing is key, the crank pin spacing and distance between, in all. Tomorrow
F5 72* pin spacing , inline 5 cyl. Manifold linking tuning pairs port to port with sufficient length for proper arrival time prior to closing. Low duration exhaust and transfers to match. Ex height from 103.7 to 102.5* from TDC depending on year bore size. Low rpm tractor which did 150 ISO prop and 170BIA crank.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447141&d=1503754872
447089447090
Honestly, there is no "best". The best you can do is weed out the worst first. Tell me how many "engineering blunders" can you point out on this little jewel .. ???
Gordon02
08-21-2019, 11:57 PM
Chaz, the 70 OMC is "my" favorite. My family and friends learned to ski and grew-up being pulled by the 1980 Johnson 70 that I bought brand new. When I think about the thousands of pulls that little 49 CI outboard made effortlessly while teaching my kids to ski and kneeboard, I'll always be impressed. I'm not qualified to point out problems with the manifolds.
I'm hoping to hear about innovations and cool engineering designs that contributed to performance from the 100 years of 2-stroke outboard history. As said, my Mercury's split exhaust chest doesn't do anything to even the length of travel.
Here is one question for you or others - A friend's Dad back in the late 70's had an old 16 foot Bomber bassboat fitted with a 3 cylinder Chrysler 85 horse outboard. That boat out-performed everything equally powered that pulled up to it. It would almost clear the water on holeshots and still run in the mid 40's. The Bomber was a heavy boat with no pad and somehow that ugly, ancient designed cross-flow 3 cylinder would pull so hard coming out that you could see most of the hull completely out of the water. That motor had something that none of my V-4's (90 and 115) had. That memory is why I've got 2 restorations going on for my own collection. Gordon
With the triple 85, even though open chest and not a manifold the pairing signals are doing their job. The 120° crank spacing and the distance port to port of pairs with the ex port duration and transfers timed to complement for good low rpm flow as bonus. This combination allows for port to port signal arrival to be in optimum range much lower in the rpm range raising dynamic pressure and cylinder charge quality and maintain the range to high rpm. The 72ci displacement also helps as does CHRYSLERS superior x flow design.
powerabout
08-22-2019, 08:28 AM
Honestly, there is no "best". The best you can do is weed out the worst first. Tell me how many "engineering blunders" can you point out on this little jewel .. ???
Dont forget omc made 3 cyl race engines even the 31m custom and it had log style like a mod 50 and nothing like a production engine less the very first 55hp which is similar
Dont forget omc made 3 cyl race engines even the 31m custom and it had log style like a mod 50 and nothing like a production engine less the very first 55hp which is similar
How about the triple Stinger exhaust, any pics?
The transition from ex port to manifold passage is where gains are made. The manifold itself isn't chosen for only purpose of spent gases having a way out, it's to improve the pairing and scavenging signals timing for the small 49 ci consumer motor. The manifold likely enable more ex duration to helping the little motor on the high end.
Ahh yes, I visited the school where I attended grades 1 thru 5 . I remember the flag pole that had to be 100' tall. The gym that was maybe half of that. The outdoor basketball hoops that took all I had to make a double underhand shot.
In reality, it's now deep in the hood, a tagged up ****hole. The flag pole is 20' at best and I would have to duck my head to clear the nets, if there were any still hanging.
I wish now I would have left my euphoric childhood memories as they were .. :)
Here is one of West Bend's finest "George Jetson" three cylinders .. It reminds me of the exhaust log above. Two units tied together haphazardly, with a third left hung out all by itself.
I get it that you guys like the old Westie / Chizzler stuff and want to keep them going. But as far as the best ... they tanked twice for a reason :rolleyes:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71cBEQluA3L._SL1500_.jpg
Chazzzz it really doesn't matter which engine design we try to discuss, Merc v6, inline twister 2x , simple triples , twins , stackers or the guys who had their names on patent papers working OMC , Merc or wherever you always manage to try and degrade the accomplished results. Why is that?
Gord wanted to open a conversation on exhaust, who did it best. Let's cut to the end, Bombardier and the new Etec and G2 with or without power valves, how much do think you compare to all the minds that built these engines and the before mentioned. You're much smarter than all.
Frankie , If your wanting to capture the days of your youth. Then say your restoring an antique.
But all this : as we roared against the mighty river our Chrysler 85 took us to breathtaking velocities achievable by no other inferior product. The perfect harmony of intake and exhaust pulses ...
Then ya hang a picture of an exterior log. Top guy looks to start out pretty good, nice oval-shaped port. Then does what pilots call a wing-over and makes a sharp 90* over itself.
Whats with the second hole .. did they forget how to make an oval ?
Maybe they thought air likes sharp corners or likes to run into walls and change directions . BTW .. the exit is down, no lets run it up into a wall .. it'll find it's way out eventually.
The bottom, hey .. they can repeat on oval. I see they tried to even the length between the top and bottom "runner" . But all that squirrel cage does is add a bunch of kinked up turns darting in and out between an odd-looking bolt arrangement.
But now that we made it past all that, lets leave the cumulative cross-section of the exit no bigger than when it started. What should we do with it .. I know, make another sharp 90* and put it back into the bottom of the block or mid where it's going to have to 90* again to face down ...
Now tell me where I'm wrong on my brief overview .. without even needing to look at the picture again .. :)
The difference between you and me .. you'll settle for what they sell you. And when you "port it" you'll knock some of the casting flash off.
Me, I'll tie it in a mill and saw the back half off , put the ports where they need to be and then weld the whole thing back together, machine it up and run it. If it's a slug, I got no problem saying so . But if it's not, better put your raincoat on .. the roost is heavy ;)
And remember .. Any idiot can make something over complicated.
It takes a genius to make it simple ... :thumbsup:
You just keep on thinking like that because four-strokes you understand.
Two units tied together with one left hangin on its own. You must be kidding.
powerabout
08-22-2019, 06:53 PM
31m exhaust
powerabout
08-22-2019, 06:56 PM
exhaust cover
powerabout
08-22-2019, 07:43 PM
How about the triple Stinger exhaust, any pics?
The transition from ex port to manifold passage is where gains are made. The manifold itself isn't chosen for only purpose of spent gases having a way out, it's to improve the pairing and scavenging signals timing for the small 49 ci consumer motor. The manifold likely enable more ex duration to helping the little motor on the high end.
stock and stinger is the same, there were very little changes over the years for production stuff once they went to 70hp
mostly trying to get more low end torque
The manifold runners longer port to port length would help the low side skiing even with more duration for upper HP. That's the advantage over open chest port to port distances.
Gordon02
08-22-2019, 08:49 PM
Chaz, FMP is right- I'd hoped for inputs and contributions from members on innovations they'd seen when building outboards for the last 100 years.
You have exceeded all of my expectations......I did not know anyone would be so quick to criticize, ridicule, and pee on my leg as yourself. I don't know you and I'm sorry that my thread offended you and your personal, philosophical convictions. If you don't like this, please refrain and let those of us who do share our meager, unworthy ideas without harassment. Gordon
31m exhaust
How about the piece between block and cover?
I'm not offended. I didn't put and keep WW1 technology in production well into the 1970's .
I mean it's not like I said Iacocca melted down all the old West Bends to build the K car to keep the whole thing from collapsing .. :nonod:
I mentioned in the other thread I thought the best of the worst was the bubble back OMC where the log starts small and then grows tall to deal with the increased volume as it picks up additional cylinders along the way.
Having welded twice as many outboard blocks back together, resleeved and put back in service this year alone than you and Frank have owned put together in your life times. I can say with accuracy, 99% of those failures occurred on the bottom two cylinders and as a direct result from " the invention" IE the bottom two cylinders ingesting raw flame in thru the ex port .. Go head Wilbert, fatten them top holes up real good~N~safe .. ! ......... > Keep the pilot light lit :p
It hasn't been a 100 years but after I put the log where I wanted it on my big bore 3.0L Merc blocks. I had dies built $750.00 dollars to stamp out my own base gaskets. Of course you have to dedicate a $1200.00 engine adapter plate to the project as well. But even my buddy FuMP could tell @ a glance .. that's where the factory should have put it .. :)
Am I satisfied 100% with the outcome ..? Of course not .. it's why I get out of bed in the morning. I try my best to approach my work with an open mind. I learned a long time ago, to only marry my wife, otherwise I might find myself touting 50 year old hardware or trick of the week as being a newsworthy current event ... :o
Speaking of keeping with the times.. what kind of O2 numbers you seeing " while the invention" is working within its peak efficiency .. ???
https://i.imgur.com/UTMcaAll.jpg
While the exhaust isn't mine, I did manage to shave 85+ pounds off of a 2.5L 300 Drag from the transom bracket to between the powerhead and lower unit .. And no FuMPy won't find the directions via Google .. :nonod: :D
https://i.imgur.com/Ki7Sln7l.jpg
A little educational video .. there are two boats with "tuned exhaust" everyone else is in the way ... Can you pick the two boats with tuned exhaust .. I know ya can :thumbsup:
<font face="Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Aa_ZPuQrs
Moved the log , to where and to what outcome? Perhaps you should show and tell what the chests have evolved into. As others have said , you're a good welder.
The OMC let's see what you think of the interior layout, closed deck.
LOSTINJ
08-23-2019, 06:21 AM
More info on the 3.0 ex plate please
Another favorite!
https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?342170-Twister1-question-for-Willabee-and-anyone-else-who-wants-to-chime-in&p=3114308#post3114308
Gordon, first I see your new here. Welcome aboard .. :thumbsup:
Frank is warming up for winter .. and I always willing to help him out .. :p
I'm sure there is a Warm and Fuzzy thread in the Emotional Section :
This is the Tech Section : So when you ask ....
Outboard Exhaust Tuning - Who Did It Best? (https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?345965-Outboard-Exhaust-Tuning-Who-Did-It-Best)
Unless you plan to give everyone a participation ribbon and call it a draw, your going to hafta be objective and start whittlin down the field until there is just one that is "Best". My apologies if your favorite took an early exit. Don't feel bad .. my favorite ain't too far ahead :D
FuMP .. I have a better idea. Tell us what you would do with this mess :smiletest:
https://i.imgur.com/nyV7vRWl.jpg
N.J.
The adapter plate has the inside radius covered because you don't need to see it.
There is a O2 sensor just below #6 , because .. I need to not only see it, but data log it.
The green tint in the runners goes from the piston crowns to the tuner tips.
powerabout
08-23-2019, 09:20 AM
so there is more HP potential from the omc 3.0 than a Merc 3.0
you need to crack an egg to make an omelette
so there is more HP potential from the omc 3.0 than a Merc 3.0
I was thinkin more along the lines of the 3.3 and 3.4 blocks. They'realready done, it takes quite a bit of effort to turn a 3.0L Merc into a 3.4~ 3.6 deal. But that's the direct way to serious steam .. :thumbsup:
FMP
you need to crack an egg to make an omelette
Chaz = Yup, that what I thought .... :rolleyes:
Dave S
08-23-2019, 03:26 PM
JMO.....A Mk 20h.... cornpopper......Eh? wadda say?
BarryStrawn
08-23-2019, 04:17 PM
I believe Chaz is saying he did/does it best. Which is the subject of the thread. All the other contenders left S&F years ago but you can see many of them in just a few weeks at Jasper.
JMO.....A Mk 20h.... cornpopper......Eh? wadda say?
Was thinking that he mark40 , I seem to remember a story of how Merc at the time was discovering new found power in the ex tuning.
I was thinkin more along the lines of the 3.3 and 3.4 blocks. They'realready done, it takes quite a bit of effort to turn a 3.0L Merc into a 3.4~ 3.6 deal. But that's the direct way to serious steam .. :thumbsup:
FMP
you need to crack an egg to make an omelette
Chaz = Yup, that what I thought .... :rolleyes:
You start a thread on it, tell us all what the intended use or goals are and then maybe we'll trade paint or ideas.
Noteworthy
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447219&d=1566573372https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447218&d=1566573372
JMO.....A Mk 20h.... cornpopper......Eh? wadda say?
I say I was 2 years old when they sold the last run of them in 1960 .. I do know where there is a museum with some really pristine resto's ... :smiletest:
https://images.boats.com/resize/wp/2/files/2008/12/img13923.jpg (http://features.boats.com/boat-content/files/2008/12/img13923.jpg)
I believe Chaz is saying he did/does it best. Which is the subject of the thread. All the other contenders left S&F years ago but you can see many of them in just a few weeks at Jasper.
Well B.S show me where I said "I was the best" .. Thats right nowhere ;)
Don't show three round holes running into a flat plate less than an inch away with a kinked up mess leading away circa 1914 and call it the best ever .. you might believe it , me not so much ... :nonod:
The guys in Jasper who win class .. They call them "World Champions" right ?
If so, I very grateful to just be a small spoke in the wheel of a few of their wins :)
And you .. ???
https://www.screamandfly.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Chaz https://www.screamandfly.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?p=3157301#post3157301)
I was thinkin more along the lines of the 3.3 and 3.4 blocks. They'realready done, it takes quite a bit of effort to turn a 3.0L Merc into a 3.4~ 3.6 deal. But that's the direct way to serious steam .. :thumbsup:
FMP
you need to crack an egg to make an omelette
Chaz = Yup, that what I thought .... :rolleyes:
FMP
You start a thread on it, tell us all what the intended use or goals are and then maybe we'll trade paint or ideas.
You seemed to be interested when you thought I was going to show you what I feel is necessary to move the volume of exhaust required to support 3.5+ Litres .. :nonod:
Omeletts, pictures of a motor that got the axe when I was in High School, new threads necessasary .. Intended use .. really ?? :D
BarryStrawn
08-26-2019, 11:16 AM
Chaz - No offense was intended.
Some small parts I figured out and fabricated have been used by guys with World Champion after their name. But nothing to brag about.
Markus
08-29-2019, 06:45 AM
so there is more HP potential from the omc 3.0 than a Merc 3.0
That's what Wayne Taylor, who played a lot with both designs, said when I asked him.__PRESENT
powerabout
08-29-2019, 07:01 AM
I still dont like the omc exhaust on the 90 looper
I do like the g2 exhaust, that has some big potential
I still dont like the omc exhaust on the 90 looper
I saw one the other day that might change your mind ... :D
I do like the g2 exhaust, that has some big potential
I live about 2 miles down river, from what's left of the test center. General consensus of the starboard / starboard from within was ... :nonod: :nonod: :nonod:
Might have been a bit of old dogs, new tricks. But I don't see too many of them in the sea of Yamaha's around here ... :o
Motv18
08-29-2019, 09:00 AM
Just to stir the pot,
seven marine with shorties. But it’s basically an inboard on a transom bracket.
powerabout
08-29-2019, 09:05 AM
I saw one the other day that might change your mind ... :D
I live about 2 miles down river, from what's left of the test center. General consensus of the starboard / starboard from within was ... :nonod: :nonod: :nonod:
Might have been a bit of old dogs, new tricks. But I don't see too many of them in the sea of Yamaha's around here ... :o
funnily enough the exhaust on the 31m is on stb, they said less exhaust dilution?
G2 did the opposite so it must be for airflow in the crankcase?
Markus
08-29-2019, 09:25 AM
I still dont like the omc exhaust on the 90 looper
Wayne liked it.__PRESENT
powerabout
08-29-2019, 06:34 PM
too many 90 degree turns
photo Freddie Webb
The bottom two make a 180* ... ;)
They did the best they could to make all three "primary runners" the same length.
Adding cross sectional area to the center pair, while not as good as length adds volume to equalize the three.
Making a turn at the point of intersection tends to keep a bit of the charge going in a straight line rather than make the turn, but then they did what they could in the space they had to work with .
To make the 3 into 1 deal truly work, the runners need to merge like the onramp to the highway. That way they will all pull and return evenly ... :thumbsup:
Power , ya know there are better ways to cut the back off than usin an "Alabama blue wrench" .. :D
http://www.snowmobile.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/37751-3/2002-Yamaha-Viper-Two-Stroke-Engine.jpg
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447761&d=1567192765
Some vehicles have a little more room and display a more obviously tuned system. The photo shows a BombardierSki-Doo snowmobile powered by a 110HP, 3 cylinder 700 cc Rotax engine. This vehicle allows room for a larger more complex system. The exhaust manifold still allows for the short distance between exhaust ports for a pulsewave, but adds a much larger expansion cone to a provide stronger negative wave, and very possibly it also augments the positive wave at certain speeds.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447762&d=1567192765
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447706&d=1503488724
OMC built the V6 above to have more equal distance spacing between the tuned pairs vs an open chest via the "primary runners" lengthened two short distances.
Is there an echo in here .... ???
I didn't see a patent on your post so just added a couple details to make sure.
powerabout
08-30-2019, 06:27 PM
what about pulse timing, surely the pulse timing has a different result at different rpm?
I remember my old OMC training instructor ( worked on OMC USA race team) said they could make a reverse pulse so strong at a certain rpm you could detonate the engine
Yup, as crank speed rpm increases the port to port timing arrival at the closing port is effectively later and in the most beneficial range. Although with the triple at low rpm it's still quite close to optimum and definitely beneficial. 120° spacing and distance port to port insures this.
Reverse pulse, if timed with the pairing can add to it. Reverse being the rebound from the low scavenging to high again.
what about pulse timing, surely the pulse timing has a different result at different rpm?
I remember my old OMC training instructor ( worked on OMC USA race team) said they could make a reverse pulse so strong at a certain rpm you could detonate the engine
Please dont use words like positive, negetive, reverse/ reflective .. :nonod:
Because FuMPy has had, what two-three years now he is still bass~akwards on their basic meaning. :p
But since you did ... ;)
I remember my old OMC training instructor ( worked on OMC USA race team) said they could make a reverse pulse so strong at a certain rpm you could detonate the engine
Still lost, FuMP quips :
Reverse pulse, if timed with the pairing can add to it. Reverse being the rebound from the low scavenging to high again.
If timed with a pairing .. ? Don't confuse yourself further until you grasp the concept of how it works as a single entity.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Arbeitsweise_Zweitakt.gif
Scavenging is the phenomena of a "negative" ( oops I used a bad word ) wave (low-pressure area behind the exhaust charge or bubble ) of air being pulled along behind. The angle of the divergent cone plays a role in speed and strength, but for now lets stick with a straight pipe or slight divergent ( diffuser) angle, since thats where it stops as far as outboards go.
Put in it's simplest terms, the back of the bubble trying to catch up with the front. Or as Smokey would argue .. Air behind the bubble, not being pulled at all, just filling the void until (14.7 psi) normal atmosphere is achieved.
https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.PUueoXuABW5CJhqzydn-6gHaC8&pid=Api&P=0&w=397&h=158 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrJ4NbRBmpduJcAZ89jCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIzODIza3QzBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANiNDRiMGU2MTI2NGVkOTU0Z Tg3MjliZDcyNWQwMmI0NwRncG9zAzg2BGl0A2Jpbmc-/RV=2/RE=1567258450/RO=11/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diymotofix.com%2fuploads%2f2%2f7%2f9%2f7%2f27975509%2ftwo-stroke-exhaust-layout-1_orig.png/RK=0/RS=z1VIIxKy69cm6FTsojnYnqQ.Uek-)
It takes a convergent cone to cause a "reverse pulse", "positive returning wave", "reflective wave", whatever you want to call a wave that bounces off the back wall and heads back up the pipe with a force greater than whats still trying to exit.
What Power's teacher was saying , is that they can steepen the angle so tight that it shoved escaping new charge as well as still smoldering ex gasses back into the cylinder, which would auto-ignite the hole instead of waiting on the spark.
https://i.imgur.com/HpZddVwm.jpg
Yes It's true, that three equal length , properly positioned head pipes will block for each other . But slim to no outboard motors are layed out that way. And when it does work "right" it's over a short spread. The rest of the time they are joined to closely together and cause more harm than good.
The magic is in the part that outboards, for the most part, don't have. The chamber section. If they did, the decals would say 600 HP instead of 300.
Notice the shapes ... try to imagine their impact on airflow .. Now if you insist on the "advanced course" by seeing three cylinders there, just remember one port is still open while two are showing piston skirt when the "reverse wave comes" . Bringing you back to dealing with one cylinder at a time .... ;)
https://i.imgur.com/C8cWau0l.jpg
It took pages to get you to comprehend the tuned paring which occurs independent of any chamber down the pipe.... you still don't get it.
A convergent cone is a more effective means of reflection but not the only source to rebound a positive. A divergent as in a twin cyl chest with one tuner eg OMC 50 , think about it. Stacker motors where a Y pipe to stack is use, the rebound from scavenging to positive creates a return to the origination closing port changing arrival prior to close as rpm increases "tuned for so many RPM" as mentioned in factory description. Better yet read the tested results of some MERC patents where the tuner length and returning positive after scavenging through to port is mentioned to compliment the pressure of the pairing to added "supercharging" effect. Tuner ratio, a narrow window.
Look at the rebounding fame returning back in , changing direction up the tuner. At about the 48 sec mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyAyd4WnvhU
V4 Pairing , George E. Miller OMC
As Power mentioned, if you can time the added positive to the pairing it's a bonus to the cylinder pressure.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447797&d=1567266354
Still hoping you don't get hit by that hurricane
It's called a "returning negative wave" not positive. I knew you'd still be lost ... when they call it both "returning" and "negative" . That's what's pulling the flame out that curls around the end of the barrel. As I stated .. the back of the bubble being scavenged .. I didn't really think you'd understand, or have the ability to grasp the basic acoustical fundamentals at work. But that's it .. pile two, three or four more waves on top ... LOL that should help ya figure it out .. :nonod:
Must sukk to be able to pilfer the U.S. patent office, copy what you find, yet are clueless to the fact that all that legal mumbo~jumbo has nothing to do with how effective it works ... But everything to do with the guy down the street not being able to copy "the look". Dduuuuhhhh :rolleyes:
That being said ... how many ways do you think they left each other to send the exhaust from a cut out in the side of the sleeve to down and out thru the prop hub without having to pay each other royalties .. :cool:
I know that ignorance is bliss, and I now see it in action ... :eek:
So you think that a high-pressure exhaust charge is going to leave the port, enter a log , fly down the log, see a "stop sign" " and an info sign that states "all parties must make a U turn and head back up this other log" that "dead ends" ... instead of following the path of least resistance and run straight out the bottom ... LMAO
Please tell me you don't believe that that picture ... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Of course we're gonna get slammed .. but it won't get this !
https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.gfREnNkL_z_7GB75JYEV6wHaE7&pid=Api&P=0&w=230&h=154 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrExdmG.WpdVYIAdzljCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIzbDJpZXZ2BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANiNGFlNTg4MjMxNTczOWQ3Z TZmOGU4NWU5NDRhNjIzZgRncG9zAzIzBGl0A2Jpbmc-/RV=2/RE=1567320582/RO=11/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.libtards.news%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2fsites%2f166%2f2017%2f05%2fAmerican-Flag-Blowing-Wind-Pole.jpg/RK=0/RS=OKiZu90aVoMaW_HB1KJhpPLt4QU-)
No, after the negative scavenging wave has played out, the rebound from and aggressive negative wave. Now you're caught up.
Read up on it in one of those POS Merc patent papers you're so quick to dismiss as garbage.
Genius
You do have experience in over scavenging with wild tuners. Must have sucked the fresh charge right into the lake. Nothing for a pairing blowdown hit to shove back in the jug. Must have detonated a bunch of clean air with that that" blocking" put there. LMAO
Dave S
08-31-2019, 08:35 PM
Mark 20H.... corn popper was not as fun as you 2..... Wheres my p corn.......HeeHee.....
No, after the negative scavenging wave has played out, the rebound from and aggressive negative wave. Now you're caught up.
Read up on it in one of those POS Merc patent papers you're so quick to dismiss as garbage.
Genius
No, after the negative scavenging wave has played out, the rebound from
and
aggressive negative wave.
That makes absolutely no sense .. not even to you ! :nonod:
There is only one thing you have been correct on all along ....>
I build exhaust systems for two strokes and four strokes out of metal every day, they get flogged on the dyno and then taken out and have the **** out of em .. :thumbsup:
Now let's see if I'm right ... you sit and dream ;)
I notice you don't have too much to say about the magic U turn ?:icon_bs:
When you .. no that won't happen. The rest of us notice how Mercs and OMC, exhausts, cylinder blocks, reed block stacking, etc etc all differ in appearance ... yet both companies offer 2 horse kickers to 300 horse motors :p
I think we're all caught up now ... :thumbsup:
A little theme song, just for you .. >
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rq_2Thm_4c
I didn't make it up, but its real.
Get into that V8 omc exhaust. Two separate fours , each divided with a wall your pics showed? Magic U turn for each ?
Sleep on it
https://i.imgur.com/HKUgVPZl.jpg
As these are divided by required distance, similar to the the 78 140 divider which was shortened for higher rpm and porting. Same old principals of distance between pairs.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447867&d=1504818313
SS Minnow
09-01-2019, 01:14 AM
Yup, as crank speed rpm increases the port to port timing arrival at the closing port is effectively later and in the most beneficial range. Although with the triple at low rpm it's still quite close to optimum and definitely beneficial. 120° spacing and distance port to port insures this.
Reverse pulse, if timed with the pairing can add to it. Reverse being the rebound from the low scavenging to high again.
Wait, what? Can anybody explain this to me? I am not a very smart man.
powerabout
09-01-2019, 06:19 AM
Wait, what? Can anybody explain this to me? I am not a very smart man.
is all about sound waves which are pressure waves
hence there are some rules they follow
With respect to piston speed, rpm , crank rotation speed and the change in position of the piston top in the closing exhaust port as the blowdown pulse arrives prior to port closing from its tuned pairing within its exhaust group.
Arrival marked as degrees before close at low rpm is greater or earlier than degrees before closing at high rpm. The piston speed outpaces the arrival of the stuffing hit as rpm increases. Timing of this arrival has different degrees of beneficial effect, ranges. Too early as a result of high exhaust port duration and or too short a distance between ports results in a negative impact at low rpm due to excessive amount of charge dilution and spilling before the port closes. But at high rpm the beneficial range is achieved. It's a balance of crank pin spacing, block exhaust system distance and ex port roof height from TDC. Higher the roof the earlier the hit is formed and released from the originating cylinder,also on the receiving cylinder this translates into more degrees before closing at arrival.
The objective is to have a system which has enough delay of arrival in built distance between pairing ports to have a good strong bottom rpm range with adequate ex duration for great high rpm power.
No, no , no FuMPy .. you say it makes a U turn and goes up a blind ally instead of straight out the highway ... ;)
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447797&d=1567266354
You had to use my picture since you've actually never looked in the ports of a real OMC V-8 for yourself ..:nonod:
They have 2 primary conduits that merge into one .. much like these collectors.
https://i.imgur.com/OMxShkTl.jpg
Which provide a smooth path to a divergent cone ... same as the OMC block ;)
However, the reflective wave is created by the "reverse cone" at the end.
https://i.imgur.com/GvkZiCUl.jpg
Something, as a general rule, the outboard does not have .... :p
https://i.imgur.com/4BHtLZll.jpg
SS Minnow
https://www.screamandfly.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by FMP https://www.screamandfly.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?p=3159114#post3159114)
Yup, as crank speed rpm increases the port to port timing arrival at the closing port is effectively later and in the most beneficial range. Although with the triple at low rpm it's still quite close to optimum and definitely beneficial. 120° spacing and distance port to port insures this.
Reverse pulse, if timed with the pairing can add to it. Reverse being the rebound from the low scavenging to high again.
Wait, what? Can anybody explain this to me? I am not a very smart man.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minnow , it comes from his years of study in the fields of thermo-dynamics, kenetic energy, combustion effiency and exhaust gas analysis .. :icon_bs:
He has written ... err .. read dozens of papers on file in the U.S. Patent Office. While understanding little to none of it, it never stops him from hiding behind other people work .. :smiletest:
FuMPy, here's your chance to impress and shut me up, all in one shot ... :p
You speak of ports and porting so much. If it's more than a house of cards, then >
I'd really like to see your collection of straight, 45* and 90* handpieces and the tooling you use for stock removal and finish work. Cuz lord knows it takes quite a bit of diversity when it comes to porting a modern V-6 block ... Chaz = waiting on your very first picture :)
powerabout
09-01-2019, 05:39 PM
an OMC v8 powerhead has 2 outlets, they dont merge
Two individual fours doing their own thing
What would be interesting is doing a left and right bank V8 crank. 1357, 2468 . Firing every 45° left to right and 90° between 1537 and 2648. If the crank and balance would permit. A left and right L4 Merc style manifold could be made for each bank. In the midsection between top and bottom pairs an exit to a tuner stack into the wind could be made. With such long equal pairing the ex duration could be high for high rpm and bottom end would still be a tractor.
Or with the original crank two modified x shaped manifolds with more equal pairing distance with a stack exit centered. How different are the race and fishing motor cranks?
powerabout
09-02-2019, 05:13 AM
The f1 v8 pairs each cyl 13, 24, 57, 68
Hupiveneilijä
09-02-2019, 06:07 AM
No, no , no FuMPy .. you say it makes a U turn and goes up a blind ally instead of straight out the highway ... ;)
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447797&d=1567266354
You had to use my picture since you've actually never looked in the ports of a real OMC V-8 for yourself ..:nonod:
They have 2 primary conduits that merge into one .. much like these collectors.
https://i.imgur.com/OMxShkTl.jpg
Which provide a smooth path to a divergent cone ... same as the OMC block ;)
However, the reflective wave is created by the "reverse cone" at the end.
https://i.imgur.com/GvkZiCUl.jpg
Something, as a general rule, the outboard does not have .... :p
https://i.imgur.com/4BHtLZll.jpg
SS Minnow
https://www.screamandfly.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by FMP https://www.screamandfly.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?p=3159114#post3159114)
Yup, as crank speed rpm increases the port to port timing arrival at the closing port is effectively later and in the most beneficial range. Although with the triple at low rpm it's still quite close to optimum and definitely beneficial. 120° spacing and distance port to port insures this.
Reverse pulse, if timed with the pairing can add to it. Reverse being the rebound from the low scavenging to high again.
Wait, what? Can anybody explain this to me? I am not a very smart man.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minnow , it comes from his years of study in the fields of thermo-dynamics, kenetic energy, combustion effiency and exhaust gas analysis .. :icon_bs:
He has written ... err .. read dozens of papers on file in the U.S. Patent Office. While understanding little to none of it, it never stops him from hiding behind other people work .. :smiletest:
FuMPy, here's your chance to impress and shut me up, all in one shot ... :p
You speak of ports and porting so much. If it's more than a house of cards, then >
I'd really like to see your collection of straight, 45* and 90* handpieces and the tooling you use for stock removal and finish work. Cuz lord knows it takes quite a bit of diversity when it comes to porting a modern V-6 block ... Chaz = waiting on your very first picture :)
Why not making little reversecone on the end of tuner or short 0deg end��
What would be interesting is doing a left and right bank V8 crank. 1357, 2468 . Firing every 45° left to right and 90° between 1537 and 2648. If the crank and balance would permit. A left and right L4 Merc style manifold could be made for each bank. In the midsection between top and bottom pairs an exit to a tuner stack into the wind could be made. With such long equal pairing the ex duration could be high for high rpm and bottom end would still be a tractor.
Can you put your hand in your head ... Oh No !
This is a good place for a rookie to start. CHEAP +...> You won't be able to do too much damage and it works good for chamfering ports .. at least the tops anyway ... ehh :)
https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.qeIeCbQcWX88acBDHEzgMwHaDl&pid=Api&P=0&w=325&h=158 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrExdrIuW1d1GYAGsZjCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIzcTI2bnZxBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANkNTFiMjFjY2QzOTA3ZGI3M WM3NGJmOTc4MThhODAyNQRncG9zAzcxBGl0A2Jpbmc-/RV=2/RE=1567500872/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2fimages.dremeleurope.com%2fgeneral%2fen%2focs%2fimage%2focsjpg--%2fdremel%25C2%25AE200series-9178.jpg/RK=0/RS=hrs6p.wJbs8Dvn6.D7VZkNaTsSU-)
Why not making little reversecone on the end of tuner or short 0deg end��
The short answer is it didn't work ... :cheers:
Here's the long version as to why .. :thumbsup:
http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/do_you_really6.pdf
an OMC v8 powerhead has 2 outlets, they dont merge
Power my brother, I want you to think about that statement for a moment.
You have an 8 lane highway, due to road construction, they have reduced traffic flow down till there are only 2 lanes.
What would the signs read along with flashing orange lights, prior to reaching the barrels and cones forcing these reductions in lane usage ... ?
# 1) Self-important idiots, run right up to the end and cause a traffic jam for all including yourselves .. :confused:
# 2 ) MERGE AHEAD ;)
# 3) What is this highway you speak of .. :o
powerabout
09-03-2019, 06:23 PM
They only see each other once they get to tbe big intersection called the inner exhaust housing.
Dont forget we drive on the other side of road over here.
SS Minnow
09-03-2019, 06:58 PM
They only see each other once they get to tbe big intersection called the inner exhaust housing.
Dont forget we drive on the other side of road over here.
Somebody has to drive on the other side of the road, otherwise why would there even be an other side of the road if nobody was going to drive on it?
The f1 v8 pairs each cyl 13, 24, 57, 68
What's the ° pin spacing stagger on the fishing motor between 1-5 , 2-6, 3-7 , 4-8 as firing pairs? They're not even.
What's the compression ratio , above the port of the fishing motor?
They only see each other once they get to tbe big intersection called the inner exhaust housing.
Dont forget we drive on the other side of road over here.
So your dropping the 8 into 2 and now going with 8 straight pipes that bypass the adapter plate and go into the inner can .. where they see each other for the first time ... Is that what your saying ... ???
Chaz= thinkin, power has never seen/driven on an 8 lane highway ... :eek: :nonod:
So the correct answer would be .... >
# 3) What is this highway you speak of .. :o
https://www.ripleys.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Ho_chi_minh_trail.jpg
FMP
https://www.screamandfly.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by powerabout https://www.screamandfly.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?p=3159574#post3159574)
The f1 v8 pairs each cyl 13, 24, 57, 68
What's the ° pin spacing stagger on the fishing motor between 1-5 , 2-6, 3-7 , 4-8 as firing pairs? They're not even.
U.S. Patent Office .. :smiletest:
CR for a Merc V6 , 5.5-6.5:1 ? Tough to get the hp without a bunch of dynamic produced by stuffing.
powerabout
09-03-2019, 11:20 PM
Same as fish v8 just shorter stroke
powerabout
09-03-2019, 11:21 PM
So your dropping the 8 into 2 and now going with 8 straight pipes that bypass the adapter plate and go into the inner can .. where they see each other for the first time ... Is that what your saying ... ???
Chaz= thinkin, power has never seen/driven on an 8 lane highway ... :eek: :nonod:
So the correct answer would be .... >
# 3) What is this highway you speak of .. :o
https://www.ripleys.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Ho_chi_minh_trail.jpg
FMP
https://www.screamandfly.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by powerabout https://www.screamandfly.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?p=3159574#post3159574)
The f1 v8 pairs each cyl 13, 24, 57, 68
What's the ° pin spacing stagger on the fishing motor between 1-5 , 2-6, 3-7 , 4-8 as firing pairs? They're not even.
U.S. Patent Office .. :smiletest:
No sticking with 2 lots of 4 into 1 through the adapter
116+ H.P. from 30 C.I. same trapped /CR maybe less. :eek:
If you need me :nonod: ... err ... Power to do the math for you 2.5L /153ci ~ 3.0L/181ci or worse yet a West Bend to see how anemic :rolleyes: the :icon_bs: "invention" is .. :thumbsup:
Ohh what the heck, one more I told ya so before I turn in for the night ... ;)
153/30= 5.1 x 116 = 591.6
Chaz = recalling something about 600 HP decals ... :p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE8Fnf9sn3w
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447761&d=1567192765
Some vehicles have a little more room and display a more obviously tuned system. The photo shows a BombardierSki-Doo snowmobile powered by a 110HP, 3 cylinder 700 cc Rotax engine. This vehicle allows room for a larger more complex system. The exhaust manifold still allows for the short distance between exhaust ports for a pulsewave, but adds a much larger expansion cone to a provide stronger negative wave, and very possibly it also augments the positive wave at certain speeds.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447762&d=1567192765
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=447706&d=1503488724
OMC built the V6 above to have more equal distance spacing between the tuned pairs vs an open chest via the "primary runners" lengthened two short distances.
Port to port makes the wide power, the can only added at certain narrow rpm range.
Like that bicycle engine
CR on the Merc, still needs high octane to satisfy the running psi. 6.5:1 2.5 carbs, damm that should make at least 89 hp.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fSko92cWLcE
Back to page one... Really , thats all you got ... Pppfffttttt
I said OMC did it the best, but still fell way short.
Your retention level is that of a third grader .. ( no offense to third graders )
If you cant see the entry angle run straight into each other and then the exit angle of the OMC takes a sharp 90* @ the junction.
While the Rotax pipes "merge" and continue in a straight line .. then well, there is really no hope for you ... :nonod:
But then that's why you only have paper mache engines to show. Full of theory, empty on reality .. ;)
Chaz = thinkin, Kind of hard to get a plug reading on a paper motor .. aint it :rolleyes:
You're blocking it out, let the principles soak into your brain. Like many have said, you're a good welder, make a better exhaust system if you can.
The wave pressure front will go to all passages and ends independent of the ex gas flow direction well behind it headed to the tuner end.
Look closely at the video, after the cylinder has been plugged in beneficial range before closing by its paired cylinder. When the piston is approaching TDC, the closed ex port and passage is hit again by the pulse pairing of the two other cylinders. Getting any idears.
Theory and principle .. then there's reality.
A young boy asked his father what the difference between theory and reality was.
The dad said .. follow me son.
The dad asked his wife, would you sleep with Brad Pitt for a million dollars ?
The wife said, it is a lot of money and we sure could use it ... so yes.
The dad went to his daughter and asked , would you sleep with Brad Pitt for a million dollars ?
She responded, in a heartbeat !
The dad then asked his eldest son if he would sleep with Brad Pitt for a million dollars ?
The oldest boy said .. Ohh yes father I would.
The dad then looked at his young son and said .. you see son .. In theory we are milti-millionaires . But in reality, we live with two hookers and a homo ...
The moral of the story ...
Theory :
You read all this old crap that the "big two" used at the patent office to try and make it more difficult for the other to build outboards and see it as being marvelous invention's ... :rolleyes:
Reality :
I'll continue to read sparkplugs, piston wash, exhaust ports, carbon trails in the head, heat patterns on the quench ring.
All these are for all practical purposes, single-cylinder engines stacked in many different configurations. With only one common denominator, the exhaust log.
I see first hand the horror's of multi-cylinder two strokes exhaust haphazardly joined together. And the horrendous resulting damage from corrupting the neighboring cylinders charge.
If your lucky, you only have to dig bits of ring out of the head, the ones that are not so lucky, need the block welded back together, bored, oversize sleeve installed, then bored back to size, decked ..etc
Sometimes you have to roll it to the .44 cents a pound pile and start over.
Like I said, I've repaired more blocks this year, than outboard motors you have owned your whole life. I can't ignore the trend I see .. obviously, my day to day experience in reality means nothing to you. Do me a favor, If you ever do wind up owning a big V-6 and find yourself burning up the bottom two holes .. Please don't ask me to fix it or what I have done to lessen the issue .. :nonod:
You'll have to forgive me if I don't buy into the fairy tail. But if you want to live on fantasy island .. keep lookin for de plane .. ;)
https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Y0SKSbhHCX-39C2TQksn3AAAAA&pid=Api&P=0&w=245&h=187 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrEzOAR9m9dNSwAJypjCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIzZnAzZ2o5BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMwYmQwNDk1ZWEwYWFjNTliO TEwNTk5NzdjMDBhMGRjYwRncG9zAzc2BGl0A2Jpbmc-/RV=2/RE=1567647377/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2fi.pinimg.com%2foriginals%2f3d%2fba%2fc2%2f3dbac25097f637eb028e628d3927ed45.jpg/RK=0/RS=7yP13s5BkbgEmjHNAPkbuzL3u68-)
Dave S
09-04-2019, 02:54 PM
Chazzz ya killin me.... need more PoP .... HeeHee funny Sh It......Thanks Fuggi for the spelling lesson.....
Dave S
09-04-2019, 02:58 PM
Sh It.... 44 cents a pound.... last I got was 20 cents 5000 lbs.... $ 1000.... and they say that was good????I am waiting...... for it to go up.... then I will .... get rid of the JUNK.....
Sh It.... 44 cents a pound.... last I got was 20 cents 5000 lbs.... $ 1000.... and they say that was good????I am waiting...... for it to go up.... then I will .... get rid of the JUNK.....
Take all the steel bolts out of the aluminum .. burn the paint off of it .. they will give you # 1 clean price for it .. just have to work at it a little bit .... :thumbsup:
Dave S
09-05-2019, 02:38 PM
****....I burn the tree stuff,,, and throw in a block/gearcase......it melts down nice......just wating......
powerabout
09-05-2019, 06:08 PM
A merc has a bolt on exhaust, when will we see a pair of equal length tubular 3 into one headers dumping out the back?
hows this but with megaphone missing
Power , that looks like the motor I had in a pair of Model A frame rails to run around on the orange groves when i was a kid .. but that was almost 50 years ago .. :D
Three into one .. 3.0L , Hummppff .. who would do sumptin krazy like dat .. ;)
https://i.imgur.com/MTEL51rl.jpg
powerabout
09-07-2019, 06:49 PM
Power , that looks like the motor I had in a pair of Model A frame rails to run around on the orange groves when i was a kid .. but that was almost 50 years ago .. :D
Three into one .. 3.0L , Hummppff .. who would do sumptin krazy like dat .. ;)
https://i.imgur.com/MTEL51rl.jpg
thats it close to perfect maybe a big long?
With the ports facing one way and the pipes facing the other .. it looks like " hearding cats " :o
powerabout
09-07-2019, 09:14 PM
With the ports facing one way and the pipes facing the other .. it looks like " hearding cats " :o
Its relying on the chair too
You got a picture of what you asked for ... with-in hours ... :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFtlAfTtitE
YOU see these men had at least one dyno when they built this version of an open chest L4. If it didn't do what they wanted it wouldn't have made to production. They moved the exit to have more equal length scavenging, also increased the short pairing runs to more equal the long pair. Another interesting variation on the L4 common chest.
Did you think that playing Christmas bells, was going to make me ... less honest :nonod:
Force ... I think they copied me ... ;)
http://assets.suredone.com/1747/media-photos/23973-ehp-mercury-force-exhaust-tube-820069-1-1995-1999-40-50-hp-4.jpg
How do you know what tools they had , or didn't have to work with .. ???
I'll tell you this much, the guy who put the large radius deflectors in the runners, knows his way around air manipulation .. :thumbsup:
I made some port to port "ski-slopes" ( with Monty's help on the first set) prob ten years ago now ..
https://i.imgur.com/OgvlBHAl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UOf9xzZl.jpg
PhotoPhukit really thinks I would go out of my way to join , because they do the above to our pictures .. :rolleyes: Sad , bunch of low~lifes :(
Ifin I was gonna do a "lil 4 banger" that no~body else wanted .. :p
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Sj2Md2B-O8s/U2ChvC09ZvI/AAAAAAAAAPs/_PCrYbfG7o4/s1600/MERCURY+150HP+OUTBOARD+ENGINE.jpg
I'd put big molly head studs in the block , MLS head gaskets made for it .
Trim the back of this out ...
http://assets.suredone.com/2479/media-photos/1500-8m0063489-1500-8m0063489-mercury-150-hp-4-stroke-v6-outboard-long-shaft-midsection-housing.jpeg
So a new baby "Bullseye billet Batmowheel" would fit in the hole ..
http://garagewhifbitz.co.uk/images/stories/gw_images/forum%20pics/batmowheel4.jpg
And run it off of a MS-3 Ultimate. They had one at the bottom of an aquarium, wires hangin out .. running a handfull of coils and injectors at the PRI show. Didn't hurt the fish or the box ... :thumbsup:
https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.3otL0Lk9E1ekqC5VZL1KbQHaHa&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrJ6wqUFXtd2QUAW_VjCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIycDZjYWg2BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM2MzVjYmViMjNmNmIwNmRlO DdmNDQ1Nzk0MjhiMmNiZgRncG9zAzMEaXQDYmluZw--/RV=2/RE=1568376340/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.megasquirt.fr%2f1028-home_default%2fmegasquirt-iii-ms3-pro-ultimate-avec-faisceau-moteur-24-metres.jpg/RK=0/RS=fVbLAWCrywMo4R1kXesQADA828E-)
Chaz = thinkin FuMp's West Bend would be a "Wet-Bend" after it got roosted .. :D
What's the ° pin spacing stagger on the fishing motor between 1-5 , 2-6, 3-7 , 4-8 as firing pairs? They're not even.
U.S. Patent Office .. :smiletest:
[/INDENT][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT][/QUOTE]
It's likely the ° staggered between firing pairs is to insure that both four cylinder systems have their pressure wave to tuner exhaust end arrive at the same moment to produce a sum of both.
What's the ° pin spacing stagger on the fishing motor between 1-5 , 2-6, 3-7 , 4-8 as firing pairs? They're not even.
Well FuMPy, I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But a 4 cylinder engine only has 4 rod journals ... Once you let that soak in, we will have a test on how many pistons a 4 cylinder engine has ... class dismissed.
U.S. Patent Office .. :smiletest:
[/INDENT][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
I must say, that's one of you more intelligent posts .. Indent, font, color, left, quote.
It's likely the ° staggered between firing pairs is to insure that both four cylinder systems have their pressure wave to tuner exhaust end arrive at the same moment to produce a sum of both.
Since people put hairdriers on everything from Harleys to V-16's .. file your theory somewhere between font and color ... :p
Figured your gonna get soaked a lot ... you'll need a change of jackets ... :D
https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.-f-KJXXwJCbj0O98ZIdWGAAAAA&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrExlTipntdxpsA2IljCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIzMmFuM200BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANlYzg3ZjhiMTAwZmY2YWNjM jc2MTIxZTcyZmRhMWFhMgRncG9zAzMzBGl0A2Jpbmc-/RV=2/RE=1568413538/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.burghardtsportinggoods.com%2fProducts%2fProductImages%2f119028_NAVY_WHITE.png/RK=0/RS=9WX6E.983fq9slmrBQX9cLX7lds-)
https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.kSox6AAcJe0MT5CdriXg7wHaHa&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrEzNRup3tdaEMApQpjCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIzNDlzazhqBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANmNTUwOGNiMGM5MmFjOWI4N zFhMmFlNDdmZWMyNmYwNQRncG9zAzQxBGl0A2Jpbmc-/RV=2/RE=1568413678/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.worldracingdreams.com%2fshop%2fimage-smp%2fchrysler-pt-cruiser-jacket-jackets-chrysler-100062_2077277_700x700.jpg/RK=0/RS=zrOcm9p0MS92yVBDaQHiXLOkcC8-)
That's the v8 rude fishing motor, try again.
If I was you I would go straight for the seeing eye dog ... :rolleyes:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Sj2Md2B-O8s/U2ChvC09ZvI/AAAAAAAAAPs/_PCrYbfG7o4/s1600/MERCURY+150HP+OUTBOARD+ENGINE.jpg
Ok , Here's the test !
How many pistons does a four cylinder have ... ???
Please, Take all the time you need .. :p
You can even use you notes >>>
Indent, font, color, left, quote.
JrCRXHF
09-13-2019, 12:33 PM
most of the time i think 4. But if this happens it could be 8. :)
448758
Ok , Here's the test !
How many pistons does a four cylinder have ... ???
Please, Take all the time you need .. :p
You can even use you notes >>>
Indent, font, color, left, quote.
I'm glad you can count to four, but the quote was in regards to the V8.
most of the time i think 4. But if this happens it could be 8. :)
448758
Doug my brother, he's cornfruzed enough as is ... ;) :D :D
FuMPy quips :
I'm glad you can count to four, but the quote was in regards to the V8.
OK FuMPy, you were real close .. but that counts as strike one .. :rolleyes:
Chaz = aint seen a V-8 on this or the last page .. :nonod:
You fell in ... aint been the same since ... ehh ?
http://www.visitpinedale.org/cache/made/images/trailheads/winter/ice-fishing-hole_754_637_76auto.jpg
PanRonnie
09-13-2019, 03:01 PM
Looking at the manual right now
Doug my brother, he's cornfruzed enough as is ... ;) :D :D
FuMPy quips :
I'm glad you can count to four, but the quote was in regards to the V8.
OK FuMPy, you were real close .. but that counts as strike one .. :rolleyes:
Chaz = aint seen a V-8 on this or the last page .. :nonod:
You fell in ... aint been the same since ... ehh ?
http://www.visitpinedale.org/cache/made/images/trailheads/winter/ice-fishing-hole_754_637_76auto.jpg
Typical Cazz deflection , play in your sandbox
SS Minnow
09-13-2019, 08:34 PM
Doug my brother, he's cornfruzed enough as is ... ;) :D :D
FuMPy quips :
I'm glad you can count to four, but the quote was in regards to the V8.
OK FuMPy, you were real close .. but that counts as strike one .. :rolleyes:
Chaz = aint seen a V-8 on this or the last page .. :nonod:
You fell in ... aint been the same since ... ehh ?
http://www.visitpinedale.org/cache/made/images/trailheads/winter/ice-fishing-hole_754_637_76auto.jpg
I enjoy conversation with those that have differing view points. But this guy, Chaz, he got dropped on his head while he was still in the womb. 'Special' does not even begin to describe him. Cannot, will not, ever get a straight answer. While it is entertaining to see Fumpy attempt to answer simple questions, quite honestly it is really sad. But hey, if the retarded kid keeps coming back, keep picking on him. I'm in.
I enjoy conversation with those that have differing view points. But this guy, Chaz, he got dropped on his head while he was still in the womb. 'Special' does not even begin to describe him. Cannot, will not, ever get a straight answer. While it is entertaining to see Fumpy attempt to answer simple questions, quite honestly it is really sad. But hey, if the retarded kid keeps coming back, keep picking on him. I'm in.
Hey Pigeon, go back to post #75.
SS Minnow
09-13-2019, 09:05 PM
Hey Pigeon, go back to post #75.
Hey Fumpy, go pound sand.
So Ronnie, what brings you here .. LOL
A better question , Sensei .... ;)
https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.1ILotddTwtdicWATt85lpwHaFj&pid=Api&rs=1&c=1&qlt=95&w=156&h=117 (https://search.aol.com/aol/image;_ylt=AwrJ7JiqRHxdOGcAk2hpCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTByMDgyYjJiBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=sensei&fr=comsearch-b&th=117.4&tw=156.8&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FAiZToTxBERQ%2Fhqdefault.jpg&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fimages%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsensei%26id%3D899D680B6F7817BFF833E4555146FE CCA09692D2%26FORM%3DIQFRBA&size=27KB&name=Top+10+Sensei+Masters+in+Movies+and+TV+-+YouTube&oid=4&h=360&w=480&turl=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.1ILotddTwtdicWATt85lpwHaFj%26pid%3DApi%26rs%3D1% 26c%3D1%26qlt%3D95%26w%3D156%26h%3D117&tt=Top+10+Sensei+Masters+in+Movies+and+TV+-+YouTube&sigr=1335keq19&sigit=131f494o4&sigi=118f0ajpm&sign=11gg0rdmk&sigt=11gg0rdmk&v_t=comsearch-b&s_it=img-ans)
What, no flywheel and the tooth count you wish to go with .. :D
getting back to the pic, I gots about 15 feet of 2" solid 6061 that's a drop from a job if ya need some stock for mounts. And prob about 3 feet of 2" Delrin.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448770&d=1568405823 (https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448770&d=1568405823)
Replaceable bearings .. that's nice :)
Flat 4 cranks, can't get rid of the center counters. But they did drill the pin throws and undercut all the counters. Not bad for a production crank .. still looks a lil heavy here and there ..
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448769&d=1568405130 (https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448769&d=1568405130)
https://www.jegs.com/photos/900/942/942-chevysuperlightcrank1.gif
I'm not even going to comment on what it says about "head removal" .. :eek:
And it's "only" got the Ford / early LS "4 head bolt pattern" ... :o
All that can be upgraded to hi-clamp load hardware ..
Large base circle stick leaves a lot of room to regrind that cam into something that will RPM .. 2 valve inline head, I'd like to see the ports and chamber walls.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448768&d=1568405100 (https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448768&d=1568405100)
With a 4.00 bore and a stroke of 3.62 it is exactly half of a 6.0L LS or the real designation would be a LQ-4 .. LOL
I'll bet a lot of the .050 over the nose to .050 numbers would be the same. The their job to take into account that there is no rocker system. :D
I good friend of mine who's a Brevard Co. fire man , has a lot of cars out there running LQ-4's deep in the 8's with twin 62's and a cheap azz Summit stick.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-8706/overview/
https://i.imgur.com/mnHr7FLl.jpg
FuMPy ,
Strike two ... if you needed to know the firing order of the V-8 .. all you had to do was ask ... We .. no , since I'm the only one who post's actual pictures and text about those old things ... I'm sorry to say I have moved on pages ago. Even though we try to institute a policy of no child left behind, you'll have to keep up or perhaps you would like to enroll in the "everything you wanted to know about the simple two stroke" but was too traumatized by the US Patent Office . Presented by PowerAbout Enterprizes International LLC for $ 479.95 per class .
Ohh, Strike three Ehh ... The Minnow is a fish , not a bird , there ehh .. :p
I just got off the phone with, Power ... ehh ! He said due to the level of frozen brain matter .. you'll need to attend the $ 679.95 individual counseling classes ... :iagree:
One more to reminisce about .... >
Chaz = thinkin this OMC V-8 X 2.5 Sporty mid weigh's 7 or 8 pounds. Less than 35 with setback, swivel, tilt-trim / pin, cyl, wing plates ... :thumbsup:
https://i.imgur.com/u6XFHXVl.jpg
SS Minnow
09-13-2019, 10:19 PM
Man, Chaz, the knowledge you have, I almost wonder why you keep trying to talk to this, person.
The knowledge you posses, it is almost dismissed arguing with that nit-witt.
Just my opinion.
Thanks though, Chaz. It has been interesting reading yous posts.
Thank you, sincerely.
Man, Chaz, the knowledge you have, I almost wonder why you keep trying to talk to this, person.
The knowledge you posses, it is almost dismissed arguing with that nit-witt.
Just my opinion.
Thanks though, Chaz. It has been interesting reading yous posts.
Thank you, sincerely.
You think he's bad now .. wait till winter and he's been couped up a few months .. :D
http://blogs.wfmt.com/offmic/files/2016/05/Halloween-the-shining.jpg
Just kiddin, Frank's alright, ya just have to take him with a grain of maple syrup :)
Last I heard, he had on his new "roost coat" I got him. Had his new "sand hammer"
you bought him and was on his way to the corner of theory and conjecture to put in his time like a man ... :D
https://i.imgur.com/IMkCXnKl.jpg
SS Minnow
09-14-2019, 12:56 AM
Lmao
PanRonnie
09-14-2019, 01:49 AM
Thought i would chime i
Fly wheel is very easy 24-2 tooth count
New custom intake manifold with shorter runners large plenum chamber
But the fun should start with
https://youtu.be/k8-_UrfbRBA
4 lithium battery's to make 48 volt
Don't know how much boost you can make for how long
But since whe are doing imaginary stuff here Anyway
Dave S
09-14-2019, 06:33 AM
Chazzz.... making that mid so light gonna make that V8....top heavy ....prone to capsizing..... HeeHee
Hey Fumpy, go pound sand.
Trash
So Ronnie, what brings you here .. LOL
A better question , Sensei .... ;)
https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.1ILotddTwtdicWATt85lpwHaFj&pid=Api&rs=1&c=1&qlt=95&w=156&h=117 (https://search.aol.com/aol/image;_ylt=AwrJ7JiqRHxdOGcAk2hpCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTByMDgyYjJiBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=sensei&fr=comsearch-b&th=117.4&tw=156.8&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FAiZToTxBERQ%2Fhqdefault.jpg&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fimages%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsensei%26id%3D899D680B6F7817BFF833E4555146FE CCA09692D2%26FORM%3DIQFRBA&size=27KB&name=Top+10+Sensei+Masters+in+Movies+and+TV+-+YouTube&oid=4&h=360&w=480&turl=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.1ILotddTwtdicWATt85lpwHaFj%26pid%3DApi%26rs%3D1% 26c%3D1%26qlt%3D95%26w%3D156%26h%3D117&tt=Top+10+Sensei+Masters+in+Movies+and+TV+-+YouTube&sigr=1335keq19&sigit=131f494o4&sigi=118f0ajpm&sign=11gg0rdmk&sigt=11gg0rdmk&v_t=comsearch-b&s_it=img-ans)
What, no flywheel and the tooth count you wish to go with .. :D
getting back to the pic, I gots about 15 feet of 2" solid 6061 that's a drop from a job if ya need some stock for mounts. And prob about 3 feet of 2" Delrin.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448770&d=1568405823 (https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448770&d=1568405823)
Replaceable bearings .. that's nice :)
Flat 4 cranks, can't get rid of the center counters. But they did drill the pin throws and undercut all the counters. Not bad for a production crank .. still looks a lil heavy here and there ..
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448769&d=1568405130 (https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448769&d=1568405130)
https://www.jegs.com/photos/900/942/942-chevysuperlightcrank1.gif
I'm not even going to comment on what it says about "head removal" .. :eek:
And it's "only" got the Ford / early LS "4 head bolt pattern" ... :o
All that can be upgraded to hi-clamp load hardware ..
Large base circle stick leaves a lot of room to regrind that cam into something that will RPM .. 2 valve inline head, I'd like to see the ports and chamber walls.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448768&d=1568405100 (https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448768&d=1568405100)
With a 4.00 bore and a stroke of 3.62 it is exactly half of a 6.0L LS or the real designation would be a LQ-4 .. LOL
I'll bet a lot of the .050 over the nose to .050 numbers would be the same. The their job to take into account that there is no rocker system. :D
I good friend of mine who's a Brevard Co. fire man , has a lot of cars out there running LQ-4's deep in the 8's with twin 62's and a cheap azz Summit stick.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-8706/overview/
https://i.imgur.com/mnHr7FLl.jpg
FuMPy ,
Strike two ... if you needed to know the firing order of the V-8 .. all you had to do was ask ... We .. no , since I'm the only one who post's actual pictures and text about those old things ... I'm sorry to say I have moved on pages ago. Even though we try to institute a policy of no child left behind, you'll have to keep up or perhaps you would like to enroll in the "everything you wanted to know about the simple two stroke" but was too traumatized by the US Patent Office . Presented by PowerAbout Enterprizes International LLC for $ 479.95 per class .
Ohh, Strike three Ehh ... The Minnow is a fish , not a bird , there ehh .. :p
I just got off the phone with, Power ... ehh ! He said due to the level of frozen brain matter .. you'll need to attend the $ 679.95 individual counseling classes ... :iagree:
One more to reminisce about .... >
Chaz = thinkin this OMC V-8 X 2.5 Sporty mid weigh's 7 or 8 pounds. Less than 35 with setback, swivel, tilt-trim / pin, cyl, wing plates ... :thumbsup:
https://i.imgur.com/u6XFHXVl.jpg
Nobody asked for the order, you didn't know the stagger of the firing pairs between the two groups of V4, patent office you answered.
You're enabling a co dependant now , you have an admirer.
powerabout
09-14-2019, 08:45 AM
like this, 2 v4's
1-5-2-6-3-7-4-8
Nobody asked for the order, you didn't know the stagger of the firing pairs between the two groups of V4, patent office you answered.
You're enabling a co dependant now , you have an admirer.
So that's your weak attempt at explaining how exhaust travels back up a divided corridor that's capped at the end , instead of down and out the end of an open conduit in the direction it is already traveling .... then
He's right , your an idiot that should be ignored.
Got Sand ?
Thought i would chime i
Fly wheel is very easy 24-2 tooth count
New custom intake manifold with shorter runners large plenum chamber
But the fun should start with
https://youtu.be/k8-_UrfbRBA
4 lithium battery's to make 48 volt
Don't know how much boost you can make for how long
But since whe are doing imaginary stuff here Anyway
NO PLEASE ... we have been doing enough "if my aunt was my uncle" mental projects.
The reason I even mentioned manifold pressure, Is because like how we have other projects in the works :) I have been speaking with a guy about doing the stainless plumbing and cold side on a 300R. Gotta be cheaper than buying a 450R .. LOL
They sure made the flywheel easy on this one ... :rolleyes:
If I can get my hands on a camshaft, I can go spin it on a "Cam Doctor" here in town. Otherwise, it's the old dial indicator and degree wheel to get the base profile.
Chaz = I like sheet metal intake manifolds ... Almost as much as I like building stainless headers .. ;)
The first 50 HP will be easy, next 50 not so much. After that will take some flogging .. :thumbsup:
SS Minnow
09-14-2019, 03:01 PM
So that's your weak attempt at explaining how exhaust travels back up a divided corridor that's capped at the end , instead of down and out the end of an open conduit in the direction it is already traveling .... then
He's right , your an idiot that should be ignored.
Got Sand ?
He reminds of Dug the dog from the movie Up. Just when you think you are getting through to him, SQUIRREL!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrAIGLkSMls
SS Minnow
09-15-2019, 12:46 AM
Hmmm. :reddevil:
Not sure exactly how you hacked into my computer, but that is seriously ****ed up.
SS Minnow
09-15-2019, 01:14 AM
You post my mothers ****ing tax return? You ****ing pile of ****. Where do I find him. Anybody?
SS Minnow
09-15-2019, 01:15 AM
That is ****ed up.
SS Minnow
09-15-2019, 01:16 AM
You got my address, you know where to find me.
See Power ... Why I asked you not to say anything about :
"Positive" pressure waves ..
or
returning "Negative" pressure waves ..
Look how bad it went off the rails ever since ... :rolleyes:
Chaz = thinking that putting returning and negative in the same sentence will "Tech-Lock" an oxymoron quicker than you can say .... jumbo shrimp ;)
Now , for a little soothing music ...
https://www.facebook.com/262937730581156/videos/349327732425416/
SS Minnow
09-15-2019, 02:52 PM
See Power ... Why I asked you not to say anything about :
"Positive" pressure waves ..
or
returning "Negative" pressure waves ..
Look how bad it went off the rails ever since ... :rolleyes:
Chaz = thinking that putting returning and negative in the same sentence will "Tech-Lock" an oxymoron quicker than you can say .... jumbo shrimp ;)
Now , for a little soothing music ...
https://www.facebook.com/262937730581156/videos/349327732425416/
In the post i quoted from panrobbie, there was a file attached that contained information he hacked from my computer. A tax return from my mother, a home inspection from my father, and various business and insurance receipts of mine. Seriously messed up thing to do. My mothers tax return? It has her ss number on it, and he posted it here. When i saw it i thought it was some kind of glitch on my computer, so i logged out, and could still see it. Seriously low.
PanRonnie
09-15-2019, 03:01 PM
It is a glitch on your computer
The document i posted was about a 48 volt supercharger
Which i uploaded again just now
I don't know you
Why would i want to post any info on you
I have no idea why you saw wat you did
But i can assure you it was not anything i did
Possible because it was a. pdf
It showed documents you read before with your pdf software
But i am going to but out now because i don't need this hassle and focus on my stuff again
While it's true Ronny is an electrical genius , I'm even more impressed by his upstanding character in the many dealings we have had over the years.
He would be a better one to ask .. How did that happen and how can I prevent it from happening again than pointing a finger at one of the three guy's I know who can fix the issue. That being .. Greg, Noli and Ronnie , Kind of understandable if true but, I think you might have burned a bridge with the latter .. :o
If in fact he is correct about the PDF file thing, I hope your man enough to apologize .. :cheers:
Perhaps some more music .... :thumbsup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA2aAVnkS6Y
dwilfong
09-15-2019, 07:51 PM
So can a pressure wave travel in exhaust gas flow.
Dose blocking the charge inertia from the cylinder matter.
Can you stop the freight train. O than mass in motion crap.
Opposite and equal force **** to.
Then again we could talk about the theory of undulation......the little bitches love it.
Dave S
09-15-2019, 07:55 PM
Such a funnn thread..... Poopercorn......
So can a pressure wave travel in exhaust gas flow.
Exhaust gas is a pressure wave.
Dose blocking the charge inertia from the cylinder matter.
Dose blocking .. thats what you did at the institution. Fongus, take your meds as prescribed.
Can you stop the freight train. O than mass in motion crap.
Opposite and equal force **** to.
Too late .. :rolleyes:
Then again we could talk about the theory of undulation......the little bitches love it.
Here's to your unelastic movement and your little *****s comment ... :)
Yes, Much like up to 2:38 your gums were bumpin positive )))) waves )) of bull ****
https://i.imgur.com/dkYBPH2l.jpg
However, your arms were "undulating" at much too slow a pace ..... :rolleyes:
I caught you dropping the rotor at 2:40 , The very first time I watched that pathetic, cantankerous attempt @ a flim~flam scam .... :p
https://i.imgur.com/cU5y296l.jpg
Suprize ... 2:42 the only one "dose fool dose" you ... :smiletest:
https://i.imgur.com/C93putgl.jpg
powerabout
09-15-2019, 10:59 PM
So did we work out that once your outboard is running above factory rpm all you really want to do is have as little restriction as possible?
So did we work out that once your outboard is running above factory rpm all you realy want to do is have as little restructoin as possible?
LOL ... That version and outlook is only for those with down to earth common sense :thumbsup:
Markus
09-17-2019, 02:15 PM
It is a glitch on your computer
The document i posted was about a 48 volt supercharger
Which i uploaded again just now
I don't know you
Why would i want to post any info on you
I have no idea why you saw wat you did
But i can assure you it was not anything i did
Possible because it was a. pdf
It showed documents you read before with your pdf software
But i am going to but out now because i don't need this hassle and focus on my stuff again
Don't worry about SS Minnow.
You can tell from his posts that he suffers from some kind of serious disorder.
__PRESENT
Freddie Webb
09-18-2019, 05:42 PM
I took that picture in about 2004. That is in the gravel right behind my shop. I cut the back off that block with a plasma cutter.
Fast Freddie ... :thumbsup:
Just lookin around .. ?
Borrowin a piece for another block .. ?
Makin room to work .. ?
;)
Aint it great what photophukkit does to once crystal clear pictures .. :eek:
Chaz = thinkin ifin I was gonna destroy a fellerz pitcher, I wouldn't put such a big water mark on it ... :nonod:
https://i.imgur.com/MPxgnH5l.jpg
Freddie Webb
09-18-2019, 06:42 PM
Chaz great to hear from you! I can't believe I just read this whole post. I think I may have pissed my pants laughing!! Power must have a direct link to my camera. That f1 v8 firing order is my flywheel picture. The block as you nailed it was an Alabama blue wrench quick and dirty. Chaz as you know I like to buy things that are in perfect working order and completely tear them apart to see what makes them tick��
Ya gotta watch what ya put on the net .. Ol Power and his buddy Google will dig it up 20 years later .. ;)
We try ta have a good time .. :eek: :) :cheers: :iagree: :D
Did ya learn anything ... :nonod:
If ya ever feel like goin, I can get ya a personal tour of the Patent Office fer $ 799.95 :leaving:
1st one I peeked at up close, I had a OMC feller here one day, say it's just this easy .. :rolleyes: :D
https://i.imgur.com/UTAioIIl.jpg
Freddie Webb
09-19-2019, 07:28 AM
Hey that guy in the picture looks familiar! LOL
Freddie Webb
09-19-2019, 07:29 AM
I would prefer a tour around the chromoly mid building. Besides that fellow in the picture is busy building big Omc v8 power!
It's a cross between a blacksmith shop and a toothpick factory ... :D
https://i.imgur.com/UCRdMt3l.jpg
Freddie Webb
09-19-2019, 02:54 PM
Looks good!
Freddie Webb
09-19-2019, 03:56 PM
Looks good to me!!
powerabout
09-20-2019, 06:13 AM
Hi Freddie I forgot you posted the gas axed v6 but I do remember you posted the firing order for me
many thanks
Scream And Fly
09-20-2019, 06:50 PM
Guys, there is some excellent information here and I thank all of you for sharing it. I would just like to ask that we try to avoid arguments or anything that might compromise the thread. That's all I ask. :)
Greg
Something to ponder ... :thumbsup:
https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/11/6/1545/htm
Markus
09-24-2019, 08:21 AM
By now, I think we all know that the answer to the question “Outboard Exhaust Tuning - Who Did It Best?”, is no one else than our own Chaz from Palm City Florida.
Perhaps the original poster can now start a new thread called “Outboard Exhaust Tuning - Which OEM Did It Best?”, and get the answer he was probably looking for.
:D
powerabout
09-24-2019, 08:24 AM
By now, I think we all know that the answer to the question “Outboard Exhaust Tuning - Who Did It Best?”, is no one else than our own Chaz from Palm City Florida.
Perhaps the original poster can now start a new thread called “Outboard Exhaust Tuning - Which OEM Did It Best?”, and get the answer he was probably looking for.
:D
we worked out best exhaust depends on rpm so either its best oem on production or modded stuff?
Gordon02
09-24-2019, 08:56 AM
As the original poster, I failed to appreciate many of the post in this thread as informative or entertaining. Much of it reminds me of being a 7 year old back in the 60's shooting our BB guns at each other. As adults, sure it was reckless, but none of us 7 year olds were thinking about the loss of an eye or more serious consequences of hurting others. We did it - I survived it, but I know better today. I'm 61 and am surprised that grown men would still get into BB gun wars....Gordon
Here is another question that I would have loved to asked in this thread, but felt like this one had ran off-track so I posted it in the Outboard Racing/OMC thread elsewhere on this forum. I'm posting it in confirmation of the original intent and reason I started the thread in the first place -
Posted elsewhere -
Based on my limited research abilities, I wanted to ask here for some expertise. I've found that the 1977 consumer model Evinrude/Johnson 140 horse outboards came with a large megaphone and can performance exhaust system. This "1 year only" exhaust system looks like something out of the race shops. I'm wondering if this was in-fact some production race class requirement wherein parts for race and consumer models had to be the same or if this was an experiment gone wrong.
This information is important to me as I would like to track these parts down for my own 1978 V4 140 build if they deliver. OMC went to a lot of trouble to make these parts work for the 1977 model since they have unique parts for the can, the tuner, the plate, and the adapter (actually block down) to work. Was the 1977 140 a stellar performer over all others, or am I chasing a performance unicorn that isn't worth the catch?
Thanks for your inputs. Gordon
Photo on left is the 1977 exhaust and on the right is the exhaust used before and after -
449468449469
nitro_rat
09-24-2019, 09:12 AM
Gordon, I know the '77 140 tuner and associated parts are very difficult to find. I'm always casually looking for a set and have been for years. My friends that run tri-hull race boats all run 140's and they just cut the regular tuner off and it works well. Seems like 8-3/4" inches from the top or something around there is the sweet spot...
Gordon02
09-24-2019, 09:51 AM
Thanks Nitro, I've kept all of my old Bass & Walleye Boats magazines and found John Tiger's 1998 article on OMC V4's. The article includes mention of the special tuner and can, but does not comment on the performance differences. I wonder why OMC did it for 1 year only - even at considerable effort and expense, then went back to the same small tuner as before. John's article does talk about cutting the small tuner off at 8" below the flange for "light, fast hulls". My reservation is dumping the hot exhaust directly on top of the water pump.
I'm looking too! Thanks for the reply. Gordon
Markus
09-24-2019, 04:13 PM
Don’t know about the OMC V4, but the HydroTec megaphone pipe for the Yamaha V6 was worse than a cut stock pipe.
By now, I think we all know that the answer to the question “Outboard Exhaust Tuning - Who Did It Best?”, is no one else than our own Chaz from Palm City Florida.
Perhaps the original poster can now start a new thread called “Outboard Exhaust Tuning - Which OEM Did It Best?”, and get the answer he was probably looking for.
:D
Me, I just another spoke in the wheel... True, lots of miles on my wheel .. :o
I've never filled out a job application, they either need me or they don't. I already stated I'm not happy with my work, thats why I just came in at 11:30 . I'll start again tomorrow @ 8 or 10 and stop whenever I fall over ..
The second of two sets of stainless headers I'll have done tomorrow, will both be flogged on a 911 Targa Thursday and Friday without mercy . Even before they are done, I will make sure I have enough U's and J's to build a couple more sets .. with just a few slight changes ... :smiletest:
So if I'm not happy with my work .. you know dayum well I'm not happy with severely compromised designs off of a drafting table .. straight into production :eek:
powerabout
09-25-2019, 12:08 AM
Thanks Nitro, I've kept all of my old Bass & Walleye Boats magazines and found John Tiger's 1998 article on OMC V4's. The article includes mention of the special tuner and can, but does not comment on the performance differences. I wonder why OMC did it for 1 year only - even at considerable effort and expense, then went back to the same small tuner as before. John's article does talk about cutting the small tuner off at 8" below the flange for "light, fast hulls". My reservation is dumping the hot exhaust directly on top of the water pump.
I'm looking too! Thanks for the reply. Gordon
IMHO the first year they create a top end engine then they work to get low end performance and use common parts for all models
Same happened with looper 120-140
Full length exhaust hence no can so cheaper ( quieter) and faster to build on the production line?
Markus
09-25-2019, 01:51 AM
So if I'm not happy with my work .. you know dayum well I'm not happy with severely compromised designs off of a drafting table .. straight into production :eek:
We have to bear in mind what the compromises are when you need to serially manufacture a product and meet a certain price point. It is not all about performance.
In my engineering school, groups of students used to be given a lawnmower with a Briggs engine to disassemble and comment on. The comments were always that it was a complete piece of junk with a very short lifespan - it was only a matter of time until cylinder would self destruct due to piston ring design, etc.
They were then given an article from consumer magazine where the lawnmower in question was rated “best buy”. After all, a $200 mower that gives 100 hours of trouble free operations lasts many seasons for the typical user. That is what engineering is about.
Merc 2.5
09-25-2019, 06:51 AM
Gordon, I know the '77 140 tuner and associated parts are very difficult to find. I'm always casually looking for a set and have been for years. My friends that run tri-hull race boats all run 140's and they just cut the regular tuner off and it works well. Seems like 8-3/4" inches from the top or something around there is the sweet spot...
Being a dumb ass ,b4 I got into boats like I am now , threw a complete 77 140 to junk yard cause it was "in the way"
I threw out lots of stuff I kick. Y own ass for every day
Gordon02
09-25-2019, 08:03 AM
See, that just it - the 99.6 cubic inch V4 was introduced in 1973. All models before and after 1977 used the small exhaust tubes. It was only that 1977 model where everything was specially made - then never came back.
IMHO the first year they create a top end engine then they work to get low end performance and use common parts for all models
Same happened with looper 120-140
Full length exhaust hence no can so cheaper ( quieter) and faster to build on the production line?
nitro_rat
09-25-2019, 08:03 AM
Being a dumb ass ,b4 I got into boats like I am now , threw a complete 77 140 to junk yard cause it was "in the way"
I threw out lots of stuff I kick. Y own ass for every day
You never need it until you throw it away...
powerabout
09-25-2019, 08:11 AM
See, that just it - the 99.6 cubic inch V4 was introduced in 1973. All models before and after 1977 used the small exhaust tubes. It was only that 1977 model where everything was specially made - then never came back.
77 140 was a top performer we sold lots...also had the leaded fuel in those days could still mill the heads to 135 spec
rochelle howell
09-25-2019, 09:04 AM
Wish I had some input, but waiting on a reasonable small, light hull for this.
Picked up an old bass boat.......SCORE- '77 140.
Been keeping an eye out for a while.
Freshwater only, just did head and water jacket gaskets, diverters, water pump kit, stats, poppets, lower unit juice, and trim cylinder rebuild.449563449564449565449562. It's amazing what you can find sometimes. "OLD JUNK"
We have to bear in mind what the compromises are when you need to serially manufacture a product and meet a certain price point. It is not all about performance.
In my engineering school, groups of students used to be given a lawnmower with a Briggs engine to disassemble and comment on. The comments were always that it was a complete piece of junk with a very short lifespan - it was only a matter of time until cylinder would self destruct due to piston ring design, etc.
They were then given an article from consumer magazine where the lawnmower in question was rated “best buy”. After all, a $200 mower that gives 100 hours of trouble free operations lasts many seasons for the typical user. That is what engineering is about.
The best lesson the class could have learned would have been at @ the Daytona round of the IKF "stock" race about 25 years ago. Everyone was struggling to go 65 mph , the Roy Whaley (ex Ernie Elliot crewman ) powered karts were running 98 to 101 mph. When protested and found to be legal , he said , you won't let us do nuttin to make no power, I just do everything not to lose none !
:iagree: Now you engineer on that one for a while ... ;)
Markus
09-25-2019, 02:58 PM
The best lesson the class could have learned would have been at @ the Daytona round of the IKF "stock" race about 25 years ago. Everyone was struggling to go 65 mph , the Roy Whaley (ex Ernie Elliot crewman ) powered karts were running 98 to 101 mph. When protested and found to be legal , he said , you won't let us do nuttin to make no power, I just do everything not to lose none !
:iagree: Now you engineer on that one for a while ... ;)
While Google does not turn up much about Mr Whaley’s achievements, I struggle to understand what what appears to be custom-built race engines has to do with the engineering challenges of meeting cost and manufacturability constraints that a mass-market outboard engine manufacturer faces.
dwilfong
09-25-2019, 06:56 PM
<a href="https://youtu.be/NCvU3INf9pA" target="_blank">
https://youtu.be/NCvU3INf9pAhttps://youtu.be/NCvU3INf9pA (https://youtu.be/NCvU3INf9pA)
I found a video that explains what happens to a pressure wave in a closed space for those that are shalt we say challenged......:D
dwilfong
09-25-2019, 07:03 PM
Let me stick this right here so I can fit in.
https://youtu.be/AO56N-Wl_00
powerabout
09-25-2019, 07:07 PM
OMC KR15 v4 has a nice exhaust
While Google does not turn up much about Mr Whaley’s achievements, I struggle to understand what what appears to be custom-built race engines has to do with the engineering challenges of meeting cost and manufacturability constraints that a mass-market outboard engine manufacturer faces.
Probably not much live footage from the Nina, Pinta and the Santa Maria either .. :nonod:
Guess it never happened ... :rolleyes:
It's shouldn't be a struggle to understand the concept of :
Win on Sunday sell on Monday !
Do you think the Brigg's engineering staff was buying a hot dog when Whaleys stuff was running that day ... ???
My point was , put the same parts in the hands a great thinker and machinist and watch the results ... ;)
But not wanting to be like someone else who avoided 100% of questions like the plague.
Yes I understand the concept of building and supplying the masses with cheap junk built for next to nothing .. I'm not impressed . I'd rather have a Kohler or Wisconsin or even a West Bend :D but they all got buried by junk .. :o
__________________________________________________________________
Fongus ............. take your meds :p
Motv18
09-26-2019, 10:36 AM
Dipped out for a while
Did we ever define what best was?
I can order all the biggest parts from summit and make a gahp 5.3l that idles like a Jack hammer, drones like a Nissan, drinks like a sailor, and runs a 1/4 in 10 flat. Long tube x diameter no cat is the best.
To a towing daily driver that's a big hunk of junk to loud ect an stock or shorties are best.
So what's the real criteria
Gordon02
09-26-2019, 10:52 AM
As the original poster, I was looking for stock, factory, OEM designs and manufacturing practices/models that came closer to extraction of performance better and more cleverly than others. Even in the original post, I mentioned what I'd seen in my own outboard experiences and the exhaust systems used. Some use archaic "open logs" while others went to extremes to even/equal the exhaust path distance between cylinders. There has to be reasons and I was hoping to get the years and years of experience here among this forum to share and explain those variations.
Thanks again, and let's please keep going. I value all inputs and opinions of these "factory" methods. Gordon
Just to clarify, I am well aware of expansion chambers and the incredible performance influence that the exhaust system can have on a 2-stroke. While I have yet to see anything from the factory outboards match the snowmobile and motorcycle performance thresholds, this was never meant for the extreme.
These are photos of just one of several builds that I did on my own bike builds wherein I built and experimented with multiple different chambered exhaust. I've got 4 different books on the subject and more than 100 hours of testing, building, tuning, and more testing on the set shown below. These nor those non-factory builds were not intended.
Thanks, Gordon
449613449614
powerabout
09-26-2019, 08:40 PM
Outboard only got one gear so that liimts what you can do exhaust wise.
Motv18
09-26-2019, 10:57 PM
If it wasn’t mentioned the 175hp merc. Sort of a open log.
But theirs it’s one year a change was made and literally every one prefers the prior exhaust.
As the original poster, I was looking for stock, factory, OEM designs and manufacturing practices/models that came closer to extraction of performance better and more cleverly than others. Even in the original post, I mentioned what I'd seen in my own outboard experiences and the exhaust systems used. Some use archaic "open logs" while others went to extremes to even/equal the exhaust path distance between cylinders. There has to be reasons and I was hoping to get the years and years of experience here among this forum to share and explain those variations.
Thanks again, and let's please keep going. I value all inputs and opinions of these "factory" methods. Gordon
Just to clarify, I am well aware of expansion chambers and the incredible performance influence that the exhaust system can have on a 2-stroke. While I have yet to see anything from the factory outboards match the snowmobile and motorcycle performance thresholds, this was never meant for the extreme.
These are photos of just one of several builds that I did on my own bike builds wherein I built and experimented with multiple different chambered exhaust. I've got 4 different books on the subject and more than 100 hours of testing, building, tuning, and more testing on the set shown below. These nor those non-factory builds were not intended.
Thanks, Gordon
449613449614
As the original poster, I failed to appreciate many of the post in this thread as informative or entertaining. Much of it reminds me of being a 7 year old back in the 60's shooting our BB guns at each other. As adults, sure it was reckless, but none of us 7 year olds were thinking about the loss of an eye or more serious consequences of hurting others. We did it - I survived it, but I know better today. I'm 61 and am surprised that grown men would still get into BB gun wars....Gordon
Here is another question that I would have loved to asked in this thread, but felt like this one had ran off-track so I posted it in the Outboard Racing/OMC thread elsewhere on this forum. I'm posting it in confirmation of the original intent and reason I started the thread in the first place -
Posted elsewhere -
Based on my limited research abilities, I wanted to ask here for some expertise. I've found that the 1977 consumer model Evinrude/Johnson 140 horse outboards came with a large megaphone and can performance exhaust system. This "1 year only" exhaust system looks like something out of the race shops. I'm wondering if this was in-fact some production race class requirement wherein parts for race and consumer models had to be the same or if this was an experiment gone wrong.
This information is important to me as I would like to track these parts down for my own 1978 V4 140 build if they deliver. OMC went to a lot of trouble to make these parts work for the 1977 model since they have unique parts for the can, the tuner, the plate, and the adapter (actually block down) to work. Was the 1977 140 a stellar performer over all others, or am I chasing a performance unicorn that isn't worth the catch?
As a basic point of information. Each thread states below the title who started it. (you have stated that twice now)You seem to feel that you have some type of ownership which gives you the right to tell other members the exact subject matter that we allowed to talk about.
Especially after naming the thread with an open-ended title such as :
Outboard Exhaust Tuning-Who Did It Best?
Which at best, asked for the opinions of members.
When looking for the best in anything, you eliminate the worst first, and chop away untill one is left standing. Im sorry if that POS on page one was was near and dear to you as a kid, but that one wasn't the first pick for prom queen. Get over it.
If you had / have questions to ask, then step up and ask them. Dont worry, after this post, you won't hear an answer from me directly to you. Cuz I see how badly the truth affects you. However this is still America, and I'm still a republican .. so if someone has a hard time understanding in from out, positive from negative and it takes the divergent and convergent cones to explain the phenomena and you already understand it . Pick up your pink participation entitlement ribbon @ your local DNC party headquarters and wait for us on the next page.
Until then if you really want a boom tube for a 140 OMC , build one . Cuz I ain't goin over an beggin no favor for a guy who called me a third grader ... LMAO :D
powerabout
09-26-2019, 11:52 PM
The exhaust for a omc v8 is different from v4 i wonder if thats all about the top end?
Maybe the other 4 cyls help the bottom end to allow for top end exhaust?
Motv18
09-27-2019, 02:04 PM
You have to consider firing order. 1-2...7-8 while a inboard will often run a automotive type 1-8- alternating side style. That sets up pulses differently.
powerabout
09-27-2019, 06:31 PM
You have to consider firing order. 1-2...7-8 while a inboard will often run a automotive type 1-8- alternating side style. That sets up pulses differently.
The 2 sets of v4's have separate exhaust and still fire 90 apart same as v4.
Bottom v4 is just 45 degree after top
Plus the 3.6 had a long megaphone and the 4.0 removed it afaik?
The exhaust for a omc v8 is different from v4
Maybe the other 4 cyls
The 2 sets of v4's have separate exhaust
Plus the 3.6 had a long megaphone and the 4.0 removed it afaik?
Dont get to "Tech-locked" about firing order. They built the crankshaft to be balanced first and foremost. The firing order doesn't have much choice but to follow rotational sequence.
Since a V-4 is a short squatty block, with no high rise apartment overhead , they used the available space to come up with a system that fit within the confines of that package and price range.
I thought we went over this .. In an effort to equalize the penthouse cylinders with the ones that are mere inchs away from the base gasket surface. They split the exhaust into to seperate units. The top 4 holes are dealt with internally within the confines of the block. While the lower 4 holes are partially in the block and the rest of the length is dealt with in the adapter plate and inside the can .. :smiletest:
I give up ... what's an ......... "afaik" ???
3.6 ~ 4.0L Chaz = thinkin I ain't never seen one that small round here ... ;)
These work good in the long cast mids ... :leaving:
https://i.imgur.com/z2M2DVal.jpg
powerabout
09-27-2019, 11:48 PM
As Far As I Know...
but I do know the 2 v4's in a v8 they have the same firing order as the v4 did they are just stacked on top of each other and fire 45 apart.
Hence on the 4.0 v8 the lower cylinders have a very different exhaust than the top as there isnt a megaphone or is it molded into the can?
I guess that makse a broader torque band?
3.6 V8 has a bolt on megaphone on the lower 4 to make it the same as the top 4
Motv18
09-28-2019, 12:54 AM
Interesting
its gonna get as bad as when I got cars/inboard style mixed up and started talking about oil rings on a 2s outboard.
Interesting
its gonna get as bad as when I got cars/inboard style mixed up and started talking about oil rings on a 2s outboard.
I remember that. But you putting your hand in the air and saying .. I'm a human being, means way more than a little technical glitch in the meat computer .. :cheers:
Ohhh Powerrrr ....
I thought we went over this .. In an effort to equalize the penthouse cylinders with the ones that are mere inchs away from the base gasket surface. They split the exhaust into to seperate units. The top 4 holes are dealt with internally within the confines of the block. While the lower 4 holes are partially in the block and the rest of the length is dealt with in the adapter plate and inside the can .. :smiletest:
I thought we went over this .. In an effort to equalize the penthouse cylinders with the ones that are mere inchs away from the base gasket surface. They split the exhaust into to seperate units. The top 4 holes are dealt with internally within the confines of the block. While the lower 4 holes are partially in the block and the rest of the length is dealt with in the adapter plate and inside the can .. :smiletest:
I thought we went over this .. In an effort to equalize the penthouse cylinders with the ones that are mere inchs away from the base gasket surface. They split the exhaust into to seperate units. The top 4 holes are dealt with internally within the confines of the block. While the lower 4 holes are partially in the block and the rest of the length is dealt with in the adapter plate and inside the can .. :smiletest:
Capiche'
Dave S
09-28-2019, 04:08 PM
IF we were to put a gasket on that Tunna.....could we mix some........looks
IF we were to put a gasket on that Tunna.....could we mix some........looks
If it didn't work, I was gonna weld a floor in it and send it to ya .. so you can use it as as a ...... shot glass .. :eek: :thumbsup:
https://i.imgur.com/kyDB5oBl.jpg
For the rest of us that didn't write the "laws of nature" but have to abide by them if we choose to accomplish anything in the realm of exhaust, be it 2 stroke or 4, the same rules apply.
Like the rest in this thread, we'll use my pictures .. taken in my shop ... ;)
I think where some continue to be confused is in the word "returning".
A returning negative wave is nothing more than "the back catching up to the front".
Put a diverging ( gets bigger as it goes) cone on the back and you will get a stronger scavaging ( pulling ) signal.
This is true no matter if it's one pipe or ten tied together. Up to this point, there is no magic that will force this negative into a positive. The exhaust pulse will always be pulled to the path of least resistance.
The magic wand one must employ to send a positive (pressure) wave back up the pipe with enough force to either stop or turn around the negative wave is a converging (getting smaller) cone to "reflect" the pulse back to where it came from.
Very simple concept .. for most :smiletest:
https://i.imgur.com/UxPBADNl.jpg?1
If I were to run these's pipe ending as three singles, there would be a negative wave from each.
Running them through the collector would get them pulling the next one along (scavaging).
https://i.imgur.com/9tG6ZzTl.jpg
Add a bit of straight, and it will empty itself and the next in line a bit harder and for a longer duration.
https://i.imgur.com/uPDXhRWl.jpg
Add an "open ended" meg ... and it's more of the same.
https://i.imgur.com/tRf3LTtl.jpg
Add a reverse cone on the end of the meg , and for the first time .. you will have a positive returning wave ... ;)
https://i.imgur.com/SJBQlRRl.jpg
No, after the negative scavenging wave has played out, the rebound from
and
aggressive negative wave.
That makes absolutely no sense .. not even to you ! :nonod:
There is only one thing you have been correct on all along ....>
I build exhaust systems for two strokes and four strokes out of metal every day, they get flogged on the dyno and then taken out and have the **** out of em .. :thumbsup:
Now let's see if I'm right ... you sit and dream ;)
I notice you don't have too much to say about the magic U turn ?:icon_bs:
When you .. no that won't happen. The rest of us notice how Mercs and OMC, exhausts, cylinder blocks, reed block stacking, etc etc all differ in appearance ... yet both companies offer 2 horse kickers to 300 horse motors :p
I think we're all caught up now ... :thumbsup:
A little theme song, just for you .. >
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rq_2Thm_4c
If any readers would like to read more into this
Mr R Lanpheer of Mercury Marine has a paper on it with respect to the inline 6
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3808807A/en
You still got nothin of your own to show ... ???
Ohh well ... back to the "American" patent office .. ehh ???
See what that patent did .. it stopped OMC and West Bend from building an inline 6 .. Nothing more ... :nonod:
If it worked so good, then why did they have to do this to make any power .. ???
Chaz = thinkin, there's three more questions you'll avoid .. :p
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/a7/2e/ef/a72eef1fb6c1f813ebf111002abe4956--speed-boats-power-boats.jpg?b=t
The ant trail if anyone is interested
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4187809A/en?inventor=Richard+A.+Lanpheer
Dave S
12-17-2019, 02:44 AM
125 BP EVERY ON SHOULD HAVE ONE.....they make good door stops.......and ya can dry ya rags on the stacks.....
powerabout
12-17-2019, 03:00 AM
If it worked so good, then why did they have to do this to make any power .. ???
Chaz = thinkin, there's three more questions you'll avoid .. :p
The exhaust design changes with rpm
Production engines need some water skiing torque at low revs
Check out the OMC F1v8 where they had a free hand....
125 BP EVERY ON SHOULD HAVE ONE.....they make good door stops.......and ya can dry ya rags on the stacks.....
But, but, but ... what about "the invention" ... :rolleyes: :D
The exhaust design changes with rpm
Production engines need some water skiing torque at low revs
Check out the OMC F1v8 where they had a free hand....
Exhaust design changed more .... over periods of time ... ;)
Properly sized, stack exhaust will make plenty of torque, as well as sweep the top :)
Go east across the (old) Palm City Bridge into Stuart, First place you come to is Monty Racing, then the OMC test center, and Lars Strom lives here too. How much more OMC V-8 history does my little town need ... :D
cali kid
12-17-2019, 10:56 AM
But, but, but ... what about "the invention" ... :rolleyes: :D
[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] Exhaust design changed more .... over periods of time ... ;)
Properly sized, stack exhaust will make plenty of torque, as well as sweep the top :)
Go east across the (old) Palm City Bridge into Stuart, First place you come to is Monty Racing, then the OMC test center, and Lars Strom lives here too. How much more OMC V-8 history does my little town need ... :D
A set of Expansion chambers would certainly make more power and range throughout. Not practical due to the size it would have to be. We will have to do with the "stack exhaust" as Merc has made to work well enough. I don't know if it's Chaz's knowledge or his sense of humor that keeps me looking for his posts. But I'm still cracking up.:iagree:
powerabout
12-17-2019, 11:28 AM
expansion chambers have a broad power range, first I have heard of that
cali kid
12-17-2019, 11:41 AM
expansion chambers have a broad power range, first I have heard of that
I race a KTM 300 XC two stroke. The FMF Fatty expansion chamber on it pulls from idle to over 8000 RPM, with a very flat torque curve. Other factors come into play but the pipe has a big effect.
powerabout
12-17-2019, 11:43 AM
I race a KTM 300 XC two stroke. The FMF Fatty expansion chamber on it pulls from idle to over 8000 RPM, with a very flat torque curve. Other factors come into play but the pipe has a big effect.
very cool, on a carby?
cali kid
12-17-2019, 11:50 AM
very cool, on a carby?
Yes. I have not tried the TPI yet, but the carb works so good I can't see spending the money or the extra weight and complication of efi.
expansion chambers have a broad power range, first I have heard of that
You should get out more often .. :D
powerabout
12-18-2019, 02:11 AM
You should get out more often .. :D
seems like it
how about 3 cylinders into common expansion chamber like a sled, could almost do that on a 20 or 25" mid?
Markus
12-18-2019, 08:45 AM
See what that patent did .. it stopped OMC and West Bend from building an inline 6 .. Nothing more ...
Why would they have wanted to build an I6?
It is not a particularly desirable design for an outboard engine unless you want to save money by starting from an I4 and adding 2 cylinders.__PRESENT
powerabout
12-18-2019, 08:57 AM
Why would they have wanted to build an I6?
It is not a particularly desirable design for an outboard engine unless you want to save money by starting from an I4 and adding 2 cylinders.__PRESENT
the v4 came first and was produced longer hence Merc might be making one soon......
seems like it
how about 3 cylinders into common expansion chamber like a sled, could almost do that on a 20 or 25" mid?
LOL .. yea me too. I just don't get around as easy as I use to ... :o
That works if your head pipes are aprox. 200mm long, equal in length and centered over the middle cylinder.
And therein lies the problem with the "log manifold" on the V-6, the bottom two holes don't have a dance partner to "block" for them .. ;)
And that's all it really is at best .. an archaic plug .. :rolleyes:
Why would they have wanted to build an I6?
It is not a particularly desirable design for an outboard engine unless you want to save money by starting from an I4 and adding 2 cylinders.__PRESENT
Ohh, I don't know .. Why would Henry Ford want to build automobiles ... ??? ;)
It's nothing new ... :nonod:
Like I said all along these great "inventions" are lawyer-speak for, blocking each other from building outboard motors .. nothing else !
https://www.automoblog.net/2011/01/14/100-years-ago-fords-fight-that-liberated-the-automobile/
Markus
12-18-2019, 11:23 AM
Ohh, I don't know .. Why would Henry Ford want to build automobiles ... ??? ;)
Because the automobile was superior to the horse-drawn carriage, which was the alternative.
The I6 outboard engine is inferior to V4, V6 and V8, which have been the alternatives at different points in time.__PRESENT
Chaz = thinkin, that either you didn't click the link .. or you did, and the contents went way over your head ... which at that point would have you PRESENT in body only ... :rolleyes:
Here's a simple question.
At the turn of the last century, what did ALAM stand for ?
Krazymaan
01-01-2020, 10:50 PM
[QUOTE=Gordon02;3157139]Chaz, FMP is right- I'd hoped for inputs and contributions from members on innovations they'd seen when building outboards for the last 100 years.
You have exceeded all of my expectations......I did not know anyone would be so quick to criticize, ridicule, and pee on my leg as yourself. I don't know you and I'm sorry that my thread offended you and your personal, philosophical convictions. If you don't like this, please refrain and let those of us who do share our meager, unworthy ideas without harassment. Gordon[/QUOTE
Thats just how Charlie Chaz playz. He will relentlessly remind you of how dumb, stupid and lame any of your ideas and thoughts are. He is the leader of the holy grail outboard club and if your worthy he will tear apart anything you come up with because his way is always more superior and he will remind you constantly as you can clearly see. His posse holds him high on a pedestal therefore he is never challenged. Except by a few of us who don't take his Chaz. Watch, you'll see shortly what I mean. He will turn your thread into a useless scrabble board of misdirected information, drift all over the place and nobody will even know what your original question is by the time he gets done with adding page after page after page of non related information. Oops, too late, I see it has already happened.
Anyways Good luck with your OMC, they are torquey and fun motors.
Merc 2.5
01-02-2020, 04:14 PM
As the original poster, I failed to appreciate many of the post in this thread as informative or entertaining. Much of it reminds me of being a 7 year old back in the 60's shooting our BB guns at each other. As adults, sure it was reckless, but none of us 7 year olds were thinking about the loss of an eye or more serious consequences of hurting others. We did it - I survived it, but I know better today. I'm 61 and am surprised that grown men would still get into BB gun wars....Gordon
Here is another question that I would have loved to asked in this thread, but felt like this one had ran off-track so I posted it in the Outboard Racing/OMC thread elsewhere on this forum. I'm posting it in confirmation of the original intent and reason I started the thread in the first place -
Posted elsewhere -
Based on my limited research abilities, I wanted to ask here for some expertise. I've found that the 1977 consumer model Evinrude/Johnson 140 horse outboards came with a large megaphone and can performance exhaust system. This "1 year only" exhaust system looks like something out of the race shops. I'm wondering if this was in-fact some production race class requirement wherein parts for race and consumer models had to be the same or if this was an experiment gone wrong.
This information is important to me as I would like to track these parts down for my own 1978 V4 140 build if they deliver. OMC went to a lot of trouble to make these parts work for the 1977 model since they have unique parts for the can, the tuner, the plate, and the adapter (actually block down) to work. Was the 1977 140 a stellar performer over all others, or am I chasing a performance unicorn that isn't worth the catch?
Thanks for your inputs. Gordon
Photo on left is the 1977 exhaust and on the right is the exhaust used before and after -
449468449469
When I was bout 23 or 24 (b4 I really got into the performance/ speed) I had a 77 140 on a old baja. ran gud. Ended up giving that motor away , I had 2 140s and a 115 but only 1 -77 140. Sure wish I had kept all the **** I gave away. Anyway continue on........
Kraze, Wow ... still butthurt huh .. ? :eek:
Look around, when I'm wrong .. I put my hand in the air, admit it .. and move on .. :cheers:
As a young man I learned it's OK to be human, You .. not so much :nonod:
Did you ever figure out why your jackplate didn't move. Ohh thats right , I told ya to unbolt it, flop it around right side out .. and it would work as designed ... :rolleyes:
I do have to admit, it takes a special person to bolt this side to the transom .. ;)
Looking back ... I should have just let you shim the half-inch plate back an inch, so the whole jack went up and down with the motor ... :p
Btw ... your welcome :D
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FR_ucWAGBYM/SvrFcwMUCDI/AAAAAAAAAAw/QA-nU56FjLM/s320/jack-plate-mii-camo.jpg
PanRonnie
01-03-2020, 07:32 AM
Because the automobile was superior to the horse-drawn carriage, which was the alternative.
The I6 outboard engine is inferior to V4, V6 and V8, which have been the alternatives at different points in time.__PRESENT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-six_engine
powerabout
01-03-2020, 07:41 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-six_engine
6 is good only in 4 stroke and diesels... ( except 6-71)
v6 4 stroke=horrible
mrichartz
01-03-2020, 07:58 AM
Kraze, Wow ... still butthurt huh .. ? :eek:
Look around, when I'm wrong .. I put my hand in the air, admit it .. and move on .. :cheers:
As a young man I learned it's OK to be human, You .. not so much :nonod:
Did you ever figure out why your jackplate didn't move. Ohh thats right , I told ya to unbolt it, flop it around right side out .. and it would work as designed ... :rolleyes:
I do have to admit, it takes a special person to bolt this side to the transom .. ;)
Looking back ... I should have just let you shim the half-inch plate back an inch, so the whole jack went up and down with the motor ... :p
Btw ... your welcome :D
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FR_ucWAGBYM/SvrFcwMUCDI/AAAAAAAAAAw/QA-nU56FjLM/s320/jack-plate-mii-camo.jpg
??????:eek:
PanRonnie
01-03-2020, 09:15 AM
6 is good only in 4 stroke and diesels... ( except 6-71)
v6 4 stroke=horrible
ok now back to megasquirt code debugging !! :leaving:
??????:eek:
:iagree: Yep ... just when ya think you seen it all ... :nonod:
How bout starting a thread, asking :
Outboard Exhaust Tuning - Who Did It Best? (https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?345965-Outboard-Exhaust-Tuning-Who-Did-It-Best)
Then getting mad when ya hear the truth ... :rolleyes:
Markus
01-03-2020, 12:41 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-six_engine
The longitudinally mounted straight 6 was what God intended for cars.
My comment above was about outboard engines.
The longitudinally mounted straight 6 was what God intended for cars.
My comment above was about outboard engines.
T2X
l6, six carbs, full race tune 200-210 HP, 99 c.i. light weight , Xflow.
Not too bad power to weight to displacement.
More than just a l4 with 2 more, totally different exhaust system(s) depending on model.
Build it today with Schnuerle, direct injection, modern metallurgy, the power will be made. Wether the two triples are stacked on top of each other or side by side in V block, they don't care if each system is built to purpose.
Dave S
01-03-2020, 04:32 PM
Merc L6 was mk 75 a moddula motor..... 3 kg7s mounted......2 7 16 bores.....easy simple in 1957.... K carl ...bunch did know V4 was a good motor..... just ran with L6......same parts just add.....20 H corn popper was early best........Just my ears say different.......
Markus
01-05-2020, 03:09 AM
Wether the two triples are stacked on top of each other or side by side in V block, they don't care if each system is built to purpose.
Center of gravity will be lower and cooling easier to get right if they are side by side.
Center of gravity will be lower and cooling easier to get right if they are side by side.
CG sure, cooling overcome. How's that looper v4 for race HP.
CG sure,
Always try to give you the benefit of doubt. I looked up what you said, just to see if it is ever relevant or pure psychobabble. Here is a brief sampling .... >
SureFit CG
SureFit CG is a dynamic technology that allows club fitters and golfers to adjust the CG position and Swingweight through interchangeable weights, optimizing launch & spin for maximum distance.
cooling overcome.
To overcome this, some have a viscous coupling a fluid clutch worked by a temperature sensitive valve that uncouples the fan until the coolant temperature reaches a set point. Other's have an electric fan, also switched on and off by a temperature sensor.
How's that looper v4 for race HP.
Race HP .... Is that anything like a 3/4 cam ? :rolleyes:
Nawww, two strokes configured in a Vee formation will never work .... Pffttttttt :p
A little old school ... >
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE8Fnf9sn3w
And one that you couldn't use 50% of it's output, on your best day ... :nonod: :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i31XkNO89OU
So take off the forks, bars, swingarm, lay it on its side, mount the output to the midsection and get back to us.
So take off the forks, bars, swingarm, lay it on its side, mount the output to the midsection and get back to us.
The difference is ... I have the ability to do that :thumbsup:
You ... not so much :nonod:
Speaking of you ... I noticed you skipped the Henry Ford vs. A.L.A.M. question I posed to both YOU and Markus ... ;)
I can't blame YOU for ducking out on that .. It puts the credibility of your narrative right alongside that of Adam Schiffhead's .... A delusional fantasy :)
powerabout
01-05-2020, 07:07 PM
https://fee.org/articles/how-henry-ford-zapped-a-licensing-monopoly/
https://fee.org/articles/how-henry-ford-zapped-a-licensing-monopoly/
It, it, it, strikes an eerily suspicious, similar storyline that claim's a few haphazardly arranged exhaust ports linked to a log that runs down below the waterline and out the prop hub ... as being a sole ownership ... "invention" .. LMAO ;)
No, No, No, my "invention" goes up before it goes down, joins the log, and out the prop hub ... Making it completely different ... Ppppfftttt :nonod:
In the end, all the **** blocking did was make it easier to see what the others were doing. Matter of public record, just look it up.
It never stopped others from making outboard motors, even West Bend made a few :p
The real winners, the lawyers, of course.
Seems the racers were the smartest. They just continued with what works. If it didn't, it went in the garbage can and tried a different way until they came up with what does work. Much like today, those guys get hired to do what they do best .. ;)
The crows, there will always be crows sittin on the wire squakin away .. :)
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1026/1173593487_520b3a908d_z.jpg?zz=1
Well at least until a shot is fired in the form of a question that requires, thinking, experience, and a bit of self honesty ... then it's crickets ...
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VTGLzXr8uak/maxresdefault.jpg
Dave S
01-07-2020, 11:31 AM
Them crickets look tasty to them crows.....
You can't hide from an expanding explosive pressure wave in an area the size of a mouse maze in a shoebox.
You can't hide from an expanding explosive pressure wave in an area the size of a mouse maze in a shoebox.
Ohh bless your heart .. ehh :p
That was so, so prophetic ... :nonod:
No, no, that was ... well, let Ron explain it to ya ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQv7Tr8HbGE
Dave S
01-09-2020, 04:59 AM
that is why...... 150 mercs had the back plate........stuffer...... not as flowey as 2.4 back plate......
No matter how as you describe it "haphazardly" arrange it.
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