Another vertex ring issue

[Tagg]

94 175xri. Started checking ring end gaps last night & found them running large as others have stated recently. I have 5 holes at 3.516 & #6 at 3.518 for whatever reason. Ring gaps in the small holes are .028. big hole is 032. Merc spec for their rings is .018 to .025. not really wanting to spend 2 grand plus to build a motor with worn out rings. I called promarine & talked to their tech guy & he says up to .029 is ok. I didn't agree & he said he'd look into options & get back to me. Has anyone else having this problem resolved it? I'm 99% sure I'm not assembling this engine with that big of a gap.

[Jay Smith]

Sorry for your piston ring end gap issues , JFYI Ive have GREAT luck with mid grade PRO MARINE pistons if I have a customer that’s gonna “lean” on a motor I send pistons to 300 below in Dicatur Il to be cryogenic treated then to Marles to be top pinned always had good end gap numbers works for me and mine ..
Jayb

[Tagg]

Thanks Jay. I specifically asked for the vertex due to the good reviews here. I didn't really start seeing this issue mentioned until after I received my kit. I'm goin to try to find a set of Merc rings locally just to see how they gap. If they're good, I'm not opposed to Merc pistons & rings if they're still available.

[FORBESAUTO]

I haven’t messed with vertex, always used the pro v pistons, and wisecos, so don’t have any experience with them to know. Does vertex have a tech line? It’s possible the gap is normal due to design of piston/ring location that causes more heat to be applied to ring therefore needing more of a gap. If this is the case, then there is no issue. Someone in tech support should be able to answer this question.

[Tagg]

I did consider this is an intentional vertex thing, but I figured if they were going to stray that far from published specs they would include some kind of special sheet. Nothing in the box other than piston, rings, pin & clips. Found a number for vertex North America & called them. They know nothing & directed me to promarine. Asked the guy at vertex if the Mercury outboard pistons were made by vertex. He had no idea. Again directed me to promarine. Pretty sketch outfit so far.

[eli]

Talk to todd At pro marine

[Tagg]

Think that's who I talked to earlier. Waiting for a call back. Didn't sound promising though. Looks to me like gap increases 2 thousandths for ever 1 thousandth increase in bore size. 20 over would probably come out in spec but they're not offered. He was looking for 30 over for me to modify to fit. I think you'd have to completely remove the pin relief to use those.

[Chaz]

Well that's a misleading thread title if I ever saw one .

Another Vertex ring issue .. ??? Because ... they don't fit the way you want them to in your loose bores ... ??? That's the rings fault ???

Top Pin them ????

Call Todd @ Pro ???

Either of those going to put meat back in your cylinders ??? ( really wasn't a question )

The 5 holes that are + .001 will be fine.

The last one , have it honed to 3.521 and buy a WSM +.020 kit and put it together.
You'll have a good motor that all 6 are loose by .001 which isn't a bad thing. As far as ring gaps go, better a mile wide than a red **** hair too tight .. ;)

[Jay Smith]

100% of the steel sleeved motors I build are always start off bored to the next size over to give the customer new bore meat and round holes I also end gap the new rings , I have a nylon mandrel that pushes the ring in square with the deck to get an accurate measurement , you also can load the lower ring lan with old ring turn piston upside down and shove the new ring in and square up the ring on piston square with deck if I find a tight end gap I use a wet rock to cut the end gap to what I require , .016”- .018” ...

Works for me 25 years building em !!!

Jay

[FORBESAUTO]

I’m a thinkin if more than one of ya are both coming up with gaps in the 0.030 range, undoubtedly they ain’t all boxed wrong and that’s what they supposed to be. Yeah #6 is getting in the out of spec range and really needs to be bored. It all depends on piston design, if they require a larger gap because of the amount of heat being transferred to them to prevent ring butt and you tighten the gap up, off the top of the piston comes. The old Keith Black pistons where this way, requiring more than normal ring gaps because of piston design

[Tagg]

The title of my thread is as it is because I've recently seen a couple other threads with people having the same problem with the same rings. I wondered if anyone found a solution to the problem & just didn't bother posting the solution. The block had been bored & honed to Mercury's published specs by a highly regarded local performance shop, one of only 2 places in Southwest Michigan that has the capability. 1 through 5 measure exactly 3.516, Mercury's published spec. #6 is 3.518. not sure why it ended up that size but I told the machinist I'm good with a little extra on #6 so no harm. So the bores are not sloppy, 5 of the 6 are exactly to Mercury spec. Just trying to clarify what I'm working with.

[FMP]

Did you get an exact measurement of the piston tops just below the crown before machining?

[Tagg]

I did not. The Merc manual said measure half inch up from bottom of the skirt 90 degrees to the pin. New pistons measure half a thousanths under Merc pistons specs at 3.5085. Merc spec is 3.509. I've noticed that some people keep referencing 2.5 bore spec at 3.515. my factory manual states 3.516. not sure where this discrepancy comes from.

[FMP]

The thought was that the pistons are finished smaller to provide some extra clearance for 3.515 exactly. This would give plenty of gap at 3.515" and closer to what you have by giving even more piston clearance with 3.3518". You likely could have finished under 3.515" with ample clearance and the gap you wanted.

[Tagg]

Sounds that way. Keep in mind, the other bores are 3.516 per the merc factory manual that I have. Those cylinders are coming out at .028. if my formula for .002 increased gap for each .001 increase in bore is applied to a 3.515 bore, I'm still looking at .026 gap, one thou over Mercury's max spec of .025.

[Jay Smith]

I’ve always found for every .001” a bore is oversized / honed larger than the desired exact correct bore, std or over bored size you will increase the ring end gap by the geometric figure of Pi or 3.14”so if the bore was at 3.516 “ your end gap should be .019” ( no more) , even bigger bore numbers due to wear or over boreing over what bore should have been will yield an even larger end gap according my experiences ...

Call me Tagg 832 597 2603

Jay

[Tagg]

Jay, I saw you mentioned that formula on one of the other threads about this same issue. I'm unlucky enough to have had my machinist overbore one cylider by exactly .002 compared to the other 5, so I have the luxury of direct measurements. I put a ring in a 3.516 hole & the end gap was .028. put the same ring in the 3.518 hole & end gap measures .032. 2 thou bigger bore-4 thou bigger end gap. Pretty close to your formula though.

[FMP]

If the bore was exactly 3.515 instead of 3.518 that same 0.032" gap ring would yield 0.02257" end gap.

The long way home
0.032"-((2π(3.518/2))-(2π(3.515/2)))

[Tagg]

Agreed. But my piston clearance would be under Merc spec. Does everybody just throw out the Merc specs & build them according to some secret specs I'm not aware of? I'm going by numbers the company that designed this motor published. I I'm getting is "should have known to go outside published specs". I'll get it sorted out.

[FORBESAUTO]

Y’all are really killing me. He’s at 0.028 with .001 extra clearance. Actually if ya look at manual it will read finished bore spec to 3.516, so those cylinders are right in line. Also gives a varience of .003 larger and needs to be bored. If he lost his maybe .001 he is still at .025-.026. But being Mercury pistons call for less, This can’t be right for a totally different brand/ style piston. I got an idea, let’s file a set to .019 gap and when it comes unglued let’s rip Vertex on how their piston/ rings are junk just how people nick named wiseco seizco just because they didn’t run enough clearance and didn’t perform proper breakin. One .size don’t fit all, and just because some are different than others don’t mean it’s not right

[Jay Smith]

Heck the mercury manual tolerance on a hi per motor bore is .006” outta round that’s is rediculious my tolerance on motors I build is a half a thousands out of round and if it’s egged more than that I have a bending mandrill that we sell that a 2.5 bore can be bent within that 1/2 thousands or perfect round I require and you need to make power , I haven’t looked at a Mercury manual in 25 years ;) LOTS of tricks that is not in any manual ...

Jay

[FMP]

Forbes, what do like for clearance on this type of piston and use, 0.005-0.004" ?
I heard of Wisecos that tight and never did anything wrong as a hard repeated dyno mule.

[Tagg]

Funny. I saw that spec early on in this project. Not a chance. If I adhered to that info, I could have reringed this thing & saved thousands.

[FORBESAUTO]

Forbes, what do like for clearance on this type of piston and use, 0.005-0.004" ?
I heard of Wisecos that tight and never did anything wrong as a hard repeated dyno mule.

Never used vertex, but from what I’m seeing they have high silicon content to allow for less expansion and reflects more heat back into the combustion (good for making power, and sounds a lot like Hypereutectic Pistons, which also cause more heat to be on rings:confused:) and run tolerances like oem cast pistons. Clearance I run depends on spec from piston manufacturer, (most like the pro v is same as oem being they are cast like oem),how the motor is built and what it’s going to used for. A stocker is gonna get set at min spec, the more compression, load it’s gonna be carrying, it’s gonna get a .001 or .002 added ( to answer your question most hot rod motors with pro v get .005 to .0055, .005 is absolute min. For wiseco forged, mine get .007).
I have built enough engines of all types to know that ring gap is dependent of piston design and you need to know the factor # for that particular piston to multiply by bore size to get desired ring gap. This is the figure we’re missing for these particular vertex pistons. I’m getting a hunch since I know of six sets from two recent threads that all gaps are supposedly too big (guessing they’ve tried more than one pack of the complete set, that they are similar to the characteristics of the Hypereutectic Pistons. Here’s a chart with the ring gap factor numbers so you see the difference between the cast and Hypereutectic Pistons to better explain my point.
435931

[FORBESAUTO]

The misconception of “I ain’t running that big of ring gap or that much piston to wall clearance, it’s practically already wore out”, on pistons that require it, is wrong. What people are missing is that when they are checking it, it is stone cold. So your 0.019 gap on your cast pistons once warms up with its limited heat. Ring gap goes to let’s say .010 in operating temp, now these high ring Hypereutectic Pistons at operating temp is applying twice the temp to rings, and guess what they wind up right at .010 too. Same applies to forged piston wall clearance, yeah they start out loose, but when ya beating on em they just as tight as your cast but a heck of a lot stronger. Tight don’t always mean it’s gonna last longer, you want it as tight as possible for the situation at hand to last, but get it too tight for the amount of heat ya gonna be putting to it and it starts scuffing or butting, it ain’t gonna last long at all.

[FMP]

Is this large gap issue relatively new? These pistons have been on the market a long while, maybe something has changed. Those who use them on a regular basis are suggesting 0.017" gap, a typical value. To hit this a clearance minimum to finish would be needed, sneaking up to it keeping it tight. But if more heat is now soaking the rings by design it's likely giving the man answering phone calls a daily headache. Might not be such a bad idea to just run the design and don't add any extra.

[FORBESAUTO]

That’s the magic question, but we know of 12 piston kits that are all supposedly too big. Either it’s intentional or they got a serious bad run.

[FMP]

Like I said before, a test mule two stroke Wiseco was beat on severely for extended time after a slow proper heat cycling breakfast. The clearance was left under spec to prove the point, nothing went wrong. Proper oil film was paramount. The tester claims that if you could pull the piston out of the bore at the highest stress level of heat and try to refit it in an instant you would discover the piston is larger in diameter than the bore. This occurs constantly under high stress and the only thing keeping it going is the film barrier between sleeve and slug.

[Tagg]

Well I'm glad a few are starting to come around to my way of thinking. The block is right according to Merc specs, piston clearance is right according to Merc. Ring end gap is not right according to Merc specs. If vertex is making pistons & rings different now days that require different clearances, they should let us know.

[FMP]

If the box says 3.515" then that's the limit, measure the piston to confirm. It's not a Merc piston so the book isn't helping much.

[Tagg]

My point from the start is the box doesn't say anything other than the part #. I truly wish it did, I wouldn't be wasting everybody's time with this.

[Forkin' Crazy]

My input? Just RUN IT!!! :cheers:

Nice read!!! :thumbsup:

[W2F a V-King]

Here is the paper work that came with my .015 over Vertex pistons and rings for my PM225. These came recommended by James Perry, the man who did my machine work.

435946 435948 435949 435950

Not sure why the added pic below... but there were only 4 pages to the instructions...

[W2F a V-King]

My point from the start is the box doesn't say anything other than the part #. I truly wish it did, I wouldn't be wasting everybody's time with this.

It's NOT wasted time. As the cliche goes, "The only stupid question is the question not asked".

I don't know why your pistons did not come with instructions.

[FORBESAUTO]

Here is the paper work that came with my .015 over Vertex pistons and rings for my PM225. These came recommended by James Perry, the man who did my machine work.

435946 435948 435949 435950

Not sure why the added pic below... but there were only 4 pages to the instructions...

Interesting, according to vertex the min ring gap on a 3.515 bore is .021 and max is .0316 :confused:. I’m thinking there is no problem.

[Jay Smith]

Maybe vertex is more interested in a non seizure build than large leakdown percentage , dunno know and don’t care I don’t use them .. the mid grade Pro or the WSM works great in my motors after top pinning , chamfering ALL edges and balancing ...

Jay

[W2F a V-King]

Application and intended use has some input too. Thus the wide window in the spec's. The "note" mentions using the tighter gaps for "stock" engines and the wider for modified motors creating more heat.

Also the wide variety of uses" is also is a bit generic, "2 stroke engines "Dirt-ATV-Snow-Pwc-Street.

Does not mention air or water cooled differences.

[FORBESAUTO]

It’s not seizure problems its preventing, it’s ring butting. They run tight piston to cylinder wall clearance. Loose gaps hurt against preventing seizure by sending more heat to the skirt area, which also means the leakdown numbers will not be affected especially if checked at operating temp (which is what’s important and where it’s gonna live it’s life. The gaps will not be loose at temp. In theory the piston is doing a better job of transferring heat back to the combustion chamber instead of absorbing it, therefore more is applied to the rings as they are part of the combustion chamber causing them to expand more, where in really this makes more power and the rings are actually going to seal better than a colder set.

[FMP]

Depending on linear expansion of that ring quality and more importantly the surface sealing after proper break-in the 0.030" will likely decrease during warm up to high temp running. If the ring is properly sealing the bore the 0.030" isn't a problem. I know others have said power loss at those gaps but I have asked that question on big gaps to a certain manufacturer and the answer was proper sealing is the key, no significant drop in power until gaps were high 30s -40s! Others have described it as the amount of time at piston speed isn't sufficient for the gap to amount to a significant leak area and loss volume of charge.

[FMP]

You should confirm the piston clearance the extra 0.001-0.003" provides.

[FORBESAUTO]

The idea that large ring gaps = large leak down comes from when a set of rings/cylinders are wore out around the circumference (where the majority of leak down comes from) they result in large gaps. In this instance rings are new with no wear and cylinders are fresh. With the speed of piston travel and offset gaps very little leakdown is lost with gaps. Also these gaps will not be that large after expansion. If I’m ever in doubt about ring gap about a certain set up, I’d rather it be larger than smaller, the last thing you want is for them to butt.

[FMP]

No butts allowed

[Tagg]

I certainly see everybody's point about loose is better than tight, but what's still bugging me is that I spent all this money & time to build a 500+ hour motor & I think by a hundred hours a leak down test would show this motor needs a rebuild. I could have fixed this thing for $500 or less if that's all I was after. I think I'm going to call promarine and order a single cylinder kit from one of the manufacturers Jay mentioned. I'll measure everything out & if they're a better fit, I'll see about swapping the vertex for a set of those. I am getting more convinced that vertex doesn't even manufacture the outboard pistons. My theory is they are reboxed from someone else. It would be funny if they were reboxed wisecos.

[Chaz]

The idea that large ring gaps = large leak down comes from when a set of rings/cylinders are wore out around the circumference (where the majority of leak down comes from) they result in large gaps. In this instance rings are new with no wear and cylinders are fresh. With the speed of piston travel and offset gaps very little leakdown is lost with gaps. Also these gaps will not be that large after expansion. If I’m ever in doubt about ring gap about a certain set up, I’d rather it be larger than smaller, the last thing you want is for them to butt.

This ...:iagree:


Bu Bu But .. big gaps look so bad on my leak down gauge ... ;) :D

[FMP]

Last I checked, made in Taiwan or elsewhere in the region.
Not Wisecos

[powerabout]

Sorry for your piston ring end gap issues , JFYI Ive have GREAT luck with mid grade PRO MARINE pistons if I have a customer that’s gonna “lean” on a motor I send pistons to 300 below in Dicatur Il to be cryogenic treated then to Marles to be top pinned always had good end gap numbers works for me and mine ..
Jayb

Hi Jay
Doesnt sound right, cryo then drill a hole and weld it up after?

[Tagg]

Good to know.

[FMP]

Been in business many years, quality control is a must. I'm sure every batch is sampled , measure each and check any difference. Consider putting the biggest in the big hole, check the rings and do the same if you find a couple longer.

[eli]

Large gaps is for turbocharging and nitrous apps normally aspiration motor ring gap should not be .030 or larger .022 /.025 would be the limit I think every manufacture wants that last .01 for insurance of I put a .030 gap in my snowmobile it would run like I need to purchase new rings. And those are
014 to .016 and run 6000 to 8000 all day

[FMP]

Not if the heat sink into the rings by design closes them more. Vertex likely has changed something, to that the finished bore should be no larger than the ordered upsize, even slightly under if clearance is checked per piston. It could be that they have made an adjustment to prevent the #6 issues and the rest are along for the ride with no issues in their opinion if not over clearanced.
Benefit of the doubt until they give up all details.

[Jay Smith]

Sorry got the time line backwards on the cryogenic and top pinning ...Hell I normally drop ship pistons from Pro Marine directly to Marles , saves on freight.

Jay

[Tagg]

Not if the heat sink into the rings by design closes them more. Vertex likely has changed something, to that the finished bore should be no larger than the ordered upsize, even slightly under if clearance is checked per piston. It could be that they have made an adjustment to prevent the #6 issues and the rest are along for the ride with no issues in their opinion if not over clearanced.
Benefit of the doubt until they give up all details.

This is the second motor I've rebuilt with #6 scuffed up. That's why I didn't whine to my machinist about #6 finishing 2 over.

[FMP]

Going to try for three with what you have now?

[Tagg]

No. I'll just be my dumb self and buy another one that someone else screwed up. That's how I roll.

[FMP]

Only you need to be satisfied with it but I'd try it for a season.
The other play is up all six again and sell the pistons and rings or maybe they'll exchange them all. You could get the desired clearance and gap.
Shiit having to do things twice.

[Tagg]

I called promarine earlier & ordered a single vp piston kit to measure out. They were extremely helpful. Gave me 20% off & free shipping without me asking for anything. Said if the new piston measures out better, they'll take the vertex set back no problem. I'm pleased with their service.

[Tagg]

pro v, not vp.

[FMP]

That's decent, might as well box it all up now.
I'd a gone Wisecos

[Jay Smith]

( Skuffing) Hopefully your breaking in your motors in on petrolium oil not a blend or 100% syn lubes , I learned my lesson on that many many years ago , I breakin on Mercury blue oil . Then great luck with penn. XLF on steel bores, works great for me !!

Good luck ,
832 597 2603
Jay @ JSRE

[eli]

That’s what you told me on the phone last year ,I have my oil purchased ,merc blue and Pennzoil xlf

[FMP]

That's decent, might as well box it all up now.
I'd a gone Wisecos

http://www.klemmvintage.com/breakin.htm

http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm

[Capt.Insane-o]

Bull**** on most of that, Those of us that have done the Wiseco/ Steel sleeve high rpm outboards know better. I've been using WSM almost exclusively due to them offering a 1.5 mm ring piston with no issues to 8000 rpm. I have a steel sleeved s3000 block with Vertex in it that has run extended miles in the 8500 rpm range and I am very impressed with them. One piston in that set had excessive end gaps and it took a few set of rings to find a pair in the happy range. The pair of 2 liter motors that I put wisecos is that turn in the upper 9's with 200 psi took some special preparations, cryo, and coatings to be able to run them at "tighter" clearances. High extended RPM 2.5's steel bores are miserable to set up with Wisecos.

[FMP]

How many years ago did you try them? They did change them since those earlier years.
Maybe those bores of the 2.5 just aren't stable enough or consistent to the tighter piston? Lots of different opinions on them.
.

Interesting that they give 0.001"+ to the finished size of the standard and next couple of up sizes.


http://www.wiseco.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ItemID=3137SS&ModelID=3088&ModelYear=2004&AppID=10547

[Chaz]

The title of my thread is as it is because I've recently seen a couple other threads with people having the same problem with the same rings. I wondered if anyone found a solution to the problem & just didn't bother posting the solution. The block had been bored & honed to Mercury's published specs by a highly regarded local performance shop, one of only 2 places in Southwest Michigan that has the capability. 1 through 5 measure exactly 3.516, Mercury's published spec. #6 is 3.518. not sure why it ended up that size but I told the machinist I'm good with a little extra on #6 so no harm. So the bores are not sloppy, 5 of the 6 are exactly to Mercury spec. Just trying to clarify what I'm working with.

If a machinist want's to cheat a bit. He can look at the Wiseco ring's part number to come up with bore size, but other than that, looking at ring gap now is closing the barn after the horse is long gone.
Put the brakes on and start from the beginning.

If your going to use specs from a book written by Mercury Marine in 1994 about a 1994 model engine using 1994 era pistons. Then you probably should find a set of .015's from WHO ________ and WHEN _______ ?

Lots of things have changed in the piston, ring and cylinder wall finish world in the last year let alone five or twenty five years. But lets go with what you have:

Instructions say .0019 - .0031 per inch of bore round it off .002 - .003 middle of the road .0025

3.5 x .0025 = .00875 Is your piston 3.506 - 3.507 + .008 = 3.515

When I hone outboard blocks I'll take out a few little numbers .. up to a half a thou
3.5151 - 3.5155
out of the bottom two holes, but never whole numbers unless it's a rehone. Then a round hole is really more important than size . ( why forkin says hang it together .. and i said fix # 6 and stab it together )

Forgings will be ground smaller , and high silicon castings will be larger and run way tighter and quieter. Know what you have before you start will save you from paying the "dumb tax" ( I've paid it plenty ):o in the long run. Speakin of long run, as long as this thread has run , you could have sweated a new $99.00 dollar sleeve in # 6 and set it at 3.5160-9? and been good to go with what ya got ... ;)

[Tagg]

The piston clearance is where I want it. If I would have had it bored for ring gaps, I wouldn't have any piston clearance. Pro v piston will be here Tuesday. We'll see how that fits & go from there.

[Chaz]

The piston clearance is where I want it. If I would have had it bored for ring gaps, I wouldn't have any piston clearance. Pro v piston will be here Tuesday. We'll see how that fits & go from there.

In the two post's I've made I never mentioned ring gaps. Bore and piston size, yes of course. Get that right, the other falls in line.
You have yet to mention piston size .. ( I asked ) But seem to be hung up on ring gap only ... open one or a thousand boxes. You're still going to have 5 on the big side and 1 .. Ahh, nevermind, Good luck to ya ... :thumbsup:

This is from the Vertex web site :

Two-stroke Piston Kits


As the OE supplier of two-stroke pistons to KTM, Vertex pistons has an outstanding reputation for quality and performance. Each gravity cast piston is created with only premium aluminum alloys utilizing an 12-21% silicon content.The silicon content in Vertex pistons is crucial to the quality of the piston. Silicon is critical in decreasing thermal expansion which, when an engine reaches normal operating temperatures, can change the geometry of the piston. Controlling this expansion means that a Vertex piston can be run at tighter tolerances for more power, less noise and a longer lifespan of the piston. Plus, the silicon content decreases wear on the piston skirt which also aids in the life of the piston.In addition to the silicon, each Vertex piston utilizes a unique Molybdenum Disulphide (MOS2) coating which aids in the break-in process and reduces overall wear.

[Tagg]

3.5086. wall clearance .0074. it's all good. I'll get it right.

[FMP]

If you get the chance compare the measurements of the two brands of pistons, weight as well if you can.

[Treeguy]

Sorry for your piston ring end gap issues , JFYI Ive have GREAT luck with mid grade PRO MARINE pistons if I have a customer that’s gonna “lean” on a motor I send pistons to 300 below in Dicatur Il to be cryogenic treated then to Marles to be top pinned always had good end gap numbers works for me and mine ..
Jayb


reading this i am curious as if there is reason to do one process first rather than the other ?

i am sure i will never put together as many motors as you have jay , but my thought would be to have the top pinning done first then the complete piston is cryoed after being top pin welded ?

thank you jay for all your input and contributions here on the forum

[powerabout]

reading this i am curious as if there is reason to do one process first rather than the other ?

i am sure i will never put together as many motors as you have jay , but my thought would be to have the top pinning done first then the complete piston is cryoed after being top pin welded ?

thank you jay for all your input and contributions here on the forum
Jay fixed his post, yes its the otherway around

[Tagg]

For those interested, I got the 15 over pro v piston in today. Piston measures 3.509 exactly. Ring gap in 3.516 cylinders is .021. in the 3.518 cylinder it's .026. piston quality looks good. Probably going to go with a set of these & return the vertex.

[FMP]

Close enough eh

[Tagg]

Close enough eh

I'm thinking yes. The plus to all this grief is if I stick one, it probably won't be #6. Gotta look at the bright side.

[powerabout]

will vertex do a custom ring package so its like a Wiseco?

[Tagg]

I didn't have any luck getting info from vertex. The generic info on their website is all I could get other than "call promarine". I'm pretty much over the vertex thing. Rest of the pro V's will be here tomorrow & the vertex are going back in the same box. I can't say enough good about promarine. I think the guy I talked to was elwin. Great guy. Bent over backwards to make it right. Rare nowadays I.

[FMP]

If you want to split hairs the measured bores are either a bit more than 3.516 or less than 3.518 or combination of both for the 0.005" gap spread.

[Tagg]

If you want to split hairs the measured bores are either a bit more than 3.516 or less than 3.518 or combination of both for the 0.005" gap spread.
5 are .516 on the nuts. I'll check the big one in the morning to the 10,000th & post it. I didn't really realize it in the beginning, but this info will probably help someone else down the road. As far as what I've got, I'm good with it. It's just a fishing motor, I just want it to last for the rest of my life. Performance to the n'th degree isn't top priority. This is only the second time I've been inside a Mercury v6. I rebuilt a 2.4 200 in 2003. It still runs nice.

[FMP]

We're human, it has to feel good because it is good.

[Chaz]

I didn't have any luck getting info from vertex. The generic info on their website is all I could get other than "call promarine". I'm pretty much over the vertex thing. Rest of the pro V's will be here tomorrow & the vertex are going back in the same box. I can't say enough good about promarine. I think the guy I talked to was elwin. Great guy. Bent over backwards to make it right. Rare nowadays I.

Another good one would be "READ THE INSTRUCTIONS" that were posted for you earlier .. Naturally, this should be done prior to boring the block .

Pro Marine .. made it right ? Another good title would be :

"Pro Marine helped me fix .. err .. feel better about my **** - up "

Hello Pro , I'd like to send back a set of vertex pistons. Only a few of em are scratched up , but don't worry , I opened every set of rings and shoved them in every hole hoping to find a unicorn set. I'm over it . I want to try a different set of .015 over's for my 16 to 18 over block .. on you of course .. Yes they will do it.
But it's like welfare, the working man will pick up the tab for it next year .. :cool:
Happy Easter :)

[Tagg]

Another good one would be "READ THE INSTRUCTIONS" that were posted for you earlier .. Naturally, this should be done prior to boring the block .

Pro Marine .. made it right ? Another good title would be :

"Pro Marine helped me fix .. err .. feel better about my **** - up "

Hello Pro , I'd like to send back a set of vertex pistons. Only a few of em are scratched up , but don't worry , I opened every set of rings and shoved them in every hole hoping to find a unicorn set. I'm over it . I want to try a different set of .015 over's for my 16 to 18 over block .. on you of course .. Yes they will do it.
But it's like welfare, the working man will pick up the tab for it next year .. :cool:
Happy Easter :)

Not sure why you felt all that was necessary, but if it makes you feel better about something, great. Pro V's came in yesterday, measured everything out last night. Everything will now be within the specs laid out by the folks that designed the thing. If I used the vertex rings, the ring gap would have been out of spec on all cylinders. I didn't get any welfare, I paid for parts for a Mercury that didn't fit like Mercury says they should. Promarine exchanged them for parts that do fit properly. I paid $450 to have the block bored to 3.516 by one of 2 shops in driving distance. They hit 5 of 6 dead on. They went 2 over on #6. Nobody around here does sleeves & I didn't want to max out the bore in case I have another problem in the future. Even with that screw up, ring gap is .026 on that cylinder. Better than .032 with the vertex. The welfare comment was the only reason I responded, otherwise I don't really care about what you think.

[Capt.Insane-o]

If you need machine work done again give me a shout

[eli]

my vertex rings were 33+ gap in 3.530 steel bore so I too got another set from pro marine and ended up with 22/24 gap and I should be on welfare after building my nic 245's three times last 3 years in a row thats 6 times I had them apart in 3 years,these replacement steel bore ff blocks now with 260 + porting I,m broke now so sent money my way please I,m not going to get into who and why ,just want to go for a ride for once lol

[Merc 2.5]

So was u a everyday boater and just wore out the 245s pretty quick? Or was it building issues? I want a nic mota but as much I like to work on em , I'm not a fan of the nic and cost of recoating just for a lake mota

[eli]

Nope maybe 10 /15 hours a year , always built well I wanted to do pair of hot steel bore motors for a change ,our lakes are pretty busy so I drive it like I’m going fishing lol had a issue with the nic peeling when I got the 245 ,s redone but u s chrome made it right they are ready to build

[Chaz]

Nope maybe 10 /15 hours

u s chrome made it right

Which ring's did you use .. ( and this next part I'm gonna regret ) :smiletest:

What was your break-in procedure ..? :thumbsup:

[eli]

Chromoly rings same rings I used for last 12 year's in my nic motor,s break in. 1/ 2 hr on hose idle at 800 then off to lake , idle for 15 min at dock while I answer dumb questions from on lookers then leave dock and plane off 2500 rpm tucked in for1/2 hr stop idle for a few shut off for 1/2 hr start up plane off 2500 to 3000 next 1/2 hr stop idle few minutes shut er down for 15 or so minutes start up and plane 2500 to 3000 for 1/2 hr then go home because I'm tired of this. Next time out 3000 to 3500 for 1/2 hr same procedure just more rpm now something amiss I can hear it so back home pull heads. Go tell the wife she going to divorce me for 20 th time. Call u s chrome. Send pics

[Merc 2.5]

Hell thats 5 hrs or less. sumthin had to b goin on

[eli]

By 4 or 5 hr 15 to 25 % leak down oem rings for the 245 were chromoly back in 1993 so something has changed in the nic process today gold rings are just coated chrome rings

[powerabout]

how come plated bores last in aircraft and car engines yet a Merc does 100 hrs before re ring on a good day?

[Chaz]

OK , eli fair enough.:cheers:

However ... :eek:

They make $ 19 dollar iron rings for chrome holes ( antique industrial type chrome )

Steel rings , plasma/molly coated, chro/molly , H-11 , he11fire, etc. for iron bores but some say you can run them in just about anything $ 20 - 35 dollars. More if it's a 4 stroke and has a 3 piece oil ring.
I know guys who use the above mentioned bare steel rings on coated cyls and get away with it. I have also seen the same ones get bit by it as well.

There must be a reason that Mother Merc used a Ti Nitride coated steel ring in their Sputter Disposition ( PVD ) coated alloy sleeve. But @ $100 a hole and the life expectancy of 100 hrs it's easy to see why some choose to go a cheaper route.

Round about the same time you were tempting divorce ( nice way to put it btw ) ;)
I chipped a cylinder. See my hand in the air, it's me accepting responsibility for my actions ... not pointing a finger. The end result, the man got his block, I'm still a US Chrome dealer and Mark and I are still friends .. and I only think about it when you bring it up .. :) :D

With this ring ...
http://parts.promarineusa.com/images/items/T2.jpg
So while we're on the subject of rings. I have a question :o OK maybe two ;)

1 ) When has anyone heard of a "modern-day Wiseco" having issues ?
( true it's not really ring related, but will give the finger pointing democrats something to whine about ) :p

2 ) When was the last time anyone heard of the pins falling out of a new Merc, WSM, Mahle, Wiseco, Pro, Vertex, replacement piston used in a "lake" application ???
With rings "cut" like these and of course installed in this direction ....

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.75Jckf9-xtK1Y-UVib7-oAAAAA&pid=Api&P=0&w=262&h=176 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrEzNwsUcJc1ZUARaZjCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIyN3FicHFnBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM5MTJjYWNlYmZiMzZhMGRjZ WU3ZTI4OTRjOWE0NjhiOARncG9zAzgEaXQDYmluZw--/RV=2/RE=1556267436/RO=11/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.maxiscoot.com%2fmedia%2fcatalog%2fproduct%2fcache%2f3%2fsmall_image%2f420x280%2f 9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2fm%2fe%2fmetss3359_metss3359_01.jpg/RK=0/RS=z.FBuZ5Q79VnwWU98XZm2jnHnew-)

[Dave S]

Vertage? Not sure of spelling.... Mag .... scinataller,..... Chaz Do ya know any thing about Em...?

[FORBESAUTO]

OK , eli fair enough.:cheers:

However ... :eek:

They make $ 19 dollar iron rings for chrome holes ( antique industrial type chrome )

Steel rings , plasma/molly coated, chro/molly , H-11 , he11fire, etc. for iron bores but some say you can run them in just about anything $ 20 - 35 dollars. More if it's a 4 stroke and has a 3 piece oil ring.
I know guys who use the above mentioned bare steel rings on coated cyls and get away with it. I have also seen the same ones get bit by it as well.

There must be a reason that Mother Merc used a Ti Nitride coated steel ring in their Sputter Disposition ( PVD ) coated alloy sleeve. But @ $100 a hole and the life expectancy of 100 hrs it's easy to see why some choose to go a cheaper route.

Round about the same time you were tempting divorce ( nice way to put it btw ) ;)
I chipped a cylinder. See my hand in the air, it's me accepting responsibility for my actions ... not pointing a finger. The end result, the man got his block, I'm still a US Chrome dealer and Mark and I are still friends .. and I only think about it when you bring it up .. :) :D

With this ring ...
http://parts.promarineusa.com/images/items/T2.jpg
So while we're on the subject of rings. I have a question :o OK maybe two ;)

1 ) When has anyone heard of a "modern-day Wiseco" having issues ?
( true it's not really ring related, but will give the finger pointing democrats something to whine about ) :p

2 ) When was the last time anyone heard of the pins falling out of a new Merc, WSM, Mahle, Wiseco, Pro, Vertex, replacement piston used in a "lake" application ???
With rings "cut" like these and of course installed in this direction ....

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.75Jckf9-xtK1Y-UVib7-oAAAAA&pid=Api&P=0&w=262&h=176 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrEzNwsUcJc1ZUARaZjCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIyN3FicHFnBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM5MTJjYWNlYmZiMzZhMGRjZ WU3ZTI4OTRjOWE0NjhiOARncG9zAzgEaXQDYmluZw--/RV=2/RE=1556267436/RO=11/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.maxiscoot.com%2fmedia%2fcatalog%2fproduct%2fcache%2f3%2fsmall_image%2f420x280%2f 9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2fm%2fe%2fmetss3359_metss3359_01.jpg/RK=0/RS=z.FBuZ5Q79VnwWU98XZm2jnHnew-)

Glad you brought that up, I was already thinking it. I can’t tell ya the last time I’ve saw a pin come loose. I got a tad over 20 hours on a set of wisecos in a 200 right now that I’ve turned 7500 so far and have run it at 6500 for 15 miles on a rig that’s over 2k lbs, all good so far. Ole T-Rex used nothing but wisecos in all his motors and swears by them, and was the one that talked me in using them on this 200 motor. Yamaha motors come with forged pistons from the factory with steel sleeves, but guess what they gots a little more clearance at .008-.009 , imagine that.

[eli]

Exactly not to get off track ,2 stroke snowmobile engines they are far from smooth and will go 6000 /8000 miles before the ghost comes and are run 6500 to 8000 rpm all the time there is no top pin pistons used in that app nicasil cylinders get 15 dollar rings the whole top end kit is 150$ with gaskets to boot

[Chaz]

Exactly not to get off track ,2 stroke snowmobile engines they are far from smooth and will go 6000 /8000 miles before the ghost comes and are run 6500 to 8000 rpm all the time there is no top pin pistons used in that app nicasil cylinders get 15 dollar rings the whole top end kit is 150$ with gaskets to boot

Actually , you right on track. Or is it half track / half ski's .. ;)
I can't say for sure, I only see stuck together rain when I go to the PRI show in INDY. God bless ya ifin ya can survive in that stuff .. gave me shrinkage :o

But going by your math, 6 to 8000 miles. Lets call it 7000
I'm sure you idle a lot and go 70 mph too call it average 40 mph = 175 hrs.
If you hit them long trails runnin and slow down to 80 mph = 87.5 hrs
Looks like typical NIC maintenance. I have no idea what kind of rings they sell you for $15 dollars, but if they go away in 100 hrs as well .. I can only assume they are also plated.
So it's super shrinkage -20 below zero F (nukkin futts) and you fire up your motor. A little cold natured :eek: so you blipp the throttle to keep it running. Get the sparkplug body up in the 300* F range so it will keep itself clean ... and away you go !
Pretty rapid change over an extremely wide temp range ... and the locating pins don't fall out .. :nonod: Humm ... who'd a thunk it :thumbsup:

[quote]
Glad you brought that up, I was already thinking it. I can’t tell ya the last time I’ve saw a pin come loose. I got a tad over 20 hours on a set of wisecos in a 200 right now that I’ve turned 7500 so far and have run it at 6500 for 15 miles on a rig that’s over 2k lbs, all good so far. Ole T-Rex used nothing but wisecos in all his motors and swears by them, and was the one that talked me in using them on this 200 motor. Yamaha motors come with forged pistons from the factory with steel sleeves, but guess what they gots a little more clearance at .008-.009 , imagine that. [quote]

Truth is they don't fall out anymore. And if we could go back in time and look at the parts in question 90% of it could be blamed on exhaust port size, shape and lack of chamfer. The other 10% more than likely fell under dissimilar metals with not enough interference fit. Aluminum grew quick, pin fell out. They fixed that back when I had black hair .. ;)
A ring seals against the cyl wall with it's stored radial tension. During the compression stroke it also seals on it's bottom face against the land. Which typically is a minimum of 4 to 6 times as deep as the ring is tall. The reason we cannot run a radial gas port ( to keep the carbon and oil out ) is that the ring needs to seal along the top edge to build crankcase compression on the descending stroke.
With so much talk lately about ring gaps and bad mouthing good companies instead of putting the dunce cap on for a day. ( my place it's a piece of 2x4 on a neck yoke-rope .. and yes I've worn it. Builds character :p )
The last thing I think I would do :nonod: ( racing 600 feet is another story, but then they don't really make more power @ 10,500 rpm ;) ) is take a ring that has been cut for standard pins which has it's cylinder wall contact area compromised ( but for the most part shrouded by the pin itself) and now take it and remove most of the lower contact patch/ radial support , leave two little tips hanging out in the breeze, then be forced to line them up over each other :rolleyes: and recommend that as the best possible scenario for a possible "high mileage" lake motor. Well honestly really needs to get out a little more often and see the advancements made in the last 20 years ..:thumbsup:

Forby, when you said :


Yamaha motors come with forged pistons from the factory with steel sleeves, but guess what they gots
a little more clearance at .008-.009 ,
imagine that.

It reminded me of one of my mentor's from long ago .. He'd say .. son all ya gotta be is just a little smarter than what your workin with ... !
Of course I hated it then .. but holds true to this day .. :)

[FMP]

Gas ports, it works and the motor made great power but was it beneficial to sealing in practice? It didn't plug or appear to build up in the groove, time will tell.

Yes, Chrysler x flow but not Wisecos. Practice was deemed illegal in certain rule books.

[Dave Strong]

Actually , you right on track. Or is it half track / half ski's .. ;)
I can't say for sure, I only see stuck together rain when I go to the PRI show in INDY. God bless ya ifin ya can survive in that stuff .. gave me shrinkage :o

But going by your math, 6 to 8000 miles. Lets call it 7000
I'm sure you idle a lot and go 70 mph too call it average 40 mph = 175 hrs.
If you hit them long trails runnin and slow down to 80 mph = 87.5 hrs
Looks like typical NIC maintenance. I have no idea what kind of rings they sell you for $15 dollars, but if they go away in 100 hrs as well .. I can only assume they are also plated.
So it's super shrinkage -20 below zero F (nukkin futts) and you fire up your motor. A little cold natured :eek: so you blipp the throttle to keep it running. Get the sparkplug body up in the 300* F range so it will keep itself clean ... and away you go !
Pretty rapid change over an extremely wide temp range ... and the locating pins don't fall out .. :nonod: Humm ... who'd a thunk it :thumbsup:

[quote]
Glad you brought that up, I was already thinking it. I can’t tell ya the last time I’ve saw a pin come loose. I got a tad over 20 hours on a set of wisecos in a 200 right now that I’ve turned 7500 so far and have run it at 6500 for 15 miles on a rig that’s over 2k lbs, all good so far. Ole T-Rex used nothing but wisecos in all his motors and swears by them, and was the one that talked me in using them on this 200 motor. Yamaha motors come with forged pistons from the factory with steel sleeves, but guess what they gots a little more clearance at .008-.009 , imagine that. [quote]



Truth is they don't fall out anymore. And if we could go back in time and look at the parts in question 90% of it could be blamed on exhaust port size, shape and lack of chamfer. The other 10% more than likely fell under dissimilar metals with not enough interference fit. Aluminum grew quick, pin fell out. They fixed that back when I had black hair .. ;)
A ring seals against the cyl wall with it's stored radial tension. During the compression stroke it also seals on it's bottom face against the land. Which typically is a minimum of 4 to 6 times as deep as the ring is tall. The reason we cannot run a radial gas port ( to keep the carbon and oil out ) is that the ring needs to seal along the top edge to build crankcase compression on the descending stroke.
With so much talk lately about ring gaps and bad mouthing good companies instead of putting the dunce cap on for a day. ( my place it's a piece of 2x4 on a neck yoke-rope .. and yes I've worn it. Builds character :p )
The last thing I think I would do :nonod: ( racing 600 feet is another story, but then they don't really make more power @ 10,500 rpm ;) ) is take a ring that has been cut for standard pins which has it's cylinder wall contact area compromised ( but for the most part shrouded by the pin itself) and now take it and remove most of the lower contact patch/ radial support , leave two little tips hanging out in the breeze, then be forced to line them up over each other :rolleyes: and recommend that as the best possible scenario for a possible "high mileage" lake motor. Well honestly really needs to get out a little more often and see the advancements made in the last 20 years ..:thumbsup:

Forby, when you said :


Yamaha motors come with forged pistons from the factory with steel sleeves, but guess what they
gots
a little more clearance at
.008-.009 ,
imagine that.

It reminded me of one of my mentor's from long ago .. He'd say .. son all ya gotta be is just a little smarter than what your workin with ... !
Of course I hated it then .. but holds true to this day .. :)

Chaz if he is running a Ski Doo rings are moly/steel or used to be last set I bought. Flat land riding must be easier on things than the mountain riding, never get 3000 miles out of single ring up here. When they went to dual ring pistons it improved life some.

Dave

[eli]

cast pistons and 15 $ rings in nik cylinder $150 for top end kit ,2 pistons rings and gaskets ,so for a merc v6 cant do the same would be $450 for the whole shebang ? its 450 just for the gold rings I never seen plating on snowmobile rings they look like just plain iron rings we just did a Polaris rush 800 top end with spi coated cast pistons and the plain jane iron looking rings say average 50 mph on trail is still 7000 rpm and 8000 miles later seems way better than an outboard life ,an outboard can not climb a mountain

[Chaz]

Gas ports, it works and the motor made great power but was it beneficial to sealing in practice? It didn't plug or appear to build up in the groove, time will tell.

Yes, Chrysler x flow but not Wisecos. Practice was deemed illegal in certain rule books.

Yes, there is power in gas porting the piston. The down side on a two stoke might be that the excess pressure pushing the ring out into the exhaust port on every power stroke could damage or prematurely wear the ring.

I can see where half of that Chrysler piston wouldn't clog up .. ;)
Same principle, they moved the ports down around the corner to the side away from any chance of carbon building up and clogging up the ports.

https://i.imgur.com/TyqwBKcl.jpg

I know the coatings were implemented to reduce ring wear. But for a while there it seemed like they helped the bores make it past the break-in period. Thats why I asked eli what he used and how he broke it in.
To hone NiC I bought : course diamond $450.00 , fine diamond $450.00 , bottom pressure half diamond half wood $450.00
I have since learned that I can burn the glue off of the stone side of E-bay sets . Buy diamond sticks from India and make my own for less than half the price of the store bought ones. Still expensive tooling to work on coated blocks. Sleeves are expensive. If you hurt "just" the plating in one hole, it's just about the same money to send it in and have all 6 redone as it is to change the bad one out .
The easy answer is .. a man's gotta hate money, ta love those motors .. :thumbsup:

[Markus]

Sleeves are expensive. If you hurt "just" the plating in one hole, it's just about the same money to send it in and have all 6 redone as it is to change the bad one out .


Either sleeves have gone up or replating a block has come down. Replating the whole thing used to be a tad more expensive than replacing two sleeves from what I remember.

[Motv18]

There was a study posted on ring gaps. Think it’s car based about the gaps lining up and gap sizes effects on compression.

Results were pretty slick something like .030 befor any noticeable test loss.

[Chaz]

Either sleeves have gone up or replating a block has come down. Replating the whole thing used to be a tad more expensive than replacing two sleeves from what I remember.

Markus , you tell me what you would put a couple of sleeves in for. Normally if a block needs two sleeves .. it needs the air-conditioned floors and front half fixed @ the same time .. but for now we'll just say the stars aligned and all that is prestine ... :rolleyes:

http://advancedsleeve.com/Documents/Marine%20Catalog.pdf

I know the web site says $363 ea. for an 1129 A, B or C but the current master price sheet says $ 433.29 ea. + shipping of course .


Here ya go .. $ 450.00 a set and your
in buiz
..
:thumbsup:

http://www.tennesseeabrasive.com/products/nikasil.aspx

:nonod: No, no, not yet ... ya need a vessel of liquid nitrogen, a small dewar to work with smaller, safer amounts. Then of course if one squeaks to a stop before it seats all the way. Or it go in a few degree's off, you gotta eat it ... so tell me brother , whats a fair price to install a pair of 1129 sleeves .. ??? :D

https://i.imgur.com/yO4Kf0Ol.jpg



Motv18

There was a study posted on ring gaps. Think it’s car based about the gaps lining up and gap sizes effects on compression.

Results were pretty slick something like .030 befor any noticeable test loss.
not once ever

I have never , not once ever read a manual or a study to where it was found to be advantagous to align the gaps. If anything , the OEM's have gone way out of their way to provide instructions on how they want their rings placed in relation to thrust angle and wrist pin bore.

My coment was in relation to advising people in this day and age of quality parts building a 6000 rpm motor and scaring them into thinking they need to resort to tricks required decades ago to make a 8000 rpm motor live.

As far as gaps , I was at the Rock and my uncle ( old black man ran T/D with us ) lipped one hole and knocked the tension out of the top ring in a few others .
We shoved all of em out , hung one new piston . And as he tells the story , I took my box with about 20 sets of used Hellfires , squeesed em like a ol woman do maters at the food store. Keep some .. throw some back .. Used rings .. top ring .040 second ring .050 Put my pretty mild tune-up in it , ran it on the jack stands for maybe 5 minutes before he took it to the water box and went 6.70's / 200 mph with that car .
A gauge or a leak down might say the motor was dead . I didn't see one gauge run down that track all weekend .. ;) What I do know is that if you live to make a gauge happy , you will eventually butt the rings and lift the land. ( as he did )
If the second gap is bigger than the top, pressure will not build between the two rings and lift the top one off the seat (flutter) creating a major leak. The more compression, boost, nirtrous, etc. the more this comes into play. ( Pat Musi pretty much gets credit for that one )
Why was my uncle's motor slow and burn up .. ? He listened to too many people. He ran it "fat so it wouldnt get hurt" :eek: Which.. washed the oil off the walls with the excess fuel. Friction+heat NFG , 120 NOS gas + oil = junk gas . How do you light that ??? jack the timing to burn the fuel .. pistons , head's , gaskets .. turn tool steel rings into sketti ..
I pinched the fuel out of it , put the timing in the back seat .. that was ten years ago .. that POS hasn't been apart since :smiletest:

[Motv18]

Haha,

hows this bubble gum to seal a intake gasket leak, two choices dq as a no show or bubble gum and run. 8.91 we were a slower bracket. And time to fix it right overnight.

[Markus]

Markus , you tell me what you would put a couple of sleeves in for. Normally if a block needs two sleeves .. it needs the air-conditioned floors and front half fixed @ the same time .. but for now we'll just say the stars aligned and all that is prestine ... :rolleyes:

http://advancedsleeve.com/Documents/Marine%20Catalog.pdf

I know the web site says $363 ea. for an 1129 A, B or C but the current master price sheet says $ 433.29 ea. + shipping of course .


Here ya go .. $ 450.00 a set and
your
in
buiz..:thumbsup:

http://www.tennesseeabrasive.com/products/nikasil.aspx

:nonod: No, no, not yet ... ya need a vessel of liquid nitrogen, a small dewar to work with smaller, safer amounts. Then of course if one squeaks to a stop before it seats all the way. Or it go in a few degree's off, you gotta eat it ... so tell me brother , whats a fair price to install a pair of 1129 sleeves .. ??? :D







From memory, back in the days I think it cost about $1100 to have Ruck do it, including the work and the two Nicom sleeves.

I also think it cost about $1100 to have Ruck send the block to US Chrome for replacing.

Things may be different now.

And of course it gets more expensive if you need a new propeller, too...

[Chaz]

Things may be different now.

:D All right, that's close enough for me .. :cheers:


And of course it gets more expensive if you need a new propeller, too...

Actually found a guy to work with that's very good + reasonable ... :thumbsup:

No wait .. I meant EXTREMELY good and VERY reasonable .. :)

https://i.imgur.com/YgCRokcl.jpg

[Dave S]

Is that prop bigger or just closer on that block ? Must be Trick photo.......Blades look wrong.......HeeHee....

[eli]

Looks like Mach cleavers

[Chaz]

Is that prop bigger or just closer on that block ? Must be Trick photo.......Blades look wrong.......HeeHee....


I took that picture when I flew over the Navy shipyard in Va ... :p

The one laying in the parking lot looked like it was going on a submarine and the one on a 30 to 40 foot tall beam was about to be lifted by a travel lift and stuck on the back of a battle ship .. ;)

Speaking of cell phone pic's and blade distortion .. check out the spine on these , then look at some of the other new ones, costing 3 times as much, that go fat-skinny-fat-skinny from hub to tip .. :)

Eli .. they ain't made Mach wheels since before I could grow a beard, let alone a grey one .. :nonod: :D

[Markus]

Eli .. they ain't made Mach wheels since before I could grow a beard, let alone a grey one .. :nonod: :D

Unfortunately not. They were unbeatable for some applications.

[Chaz]

Unfortunately not. They were unbeatable for some applications.

Are you saying that propellor technology has been stagnant over the last 40 years .. ??? :eek: :D

Say hello .. tu mi lettle frieng ... https://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/images/smilies/068.gif

http://www.heringpropellers.com/mediafiles/images/about-prop-pic.jpg

[Markus]

Are you saying that propellor technology has been stagnant over the last 40 years .. ??? :eek: :D

No. I was saying that today’s propellers don’t address the needs of certain combinations of hulls and engines as certain Mach propellers did.

[powerabout]

No. I was saying that today’s propellers don’t address the needs of certain combinations of hulls and engines as certain Mach propellers did.
like the prop on the v4 75hp omc on a hydro that did 130mph in 1966, dont think they make one that good today?

[Dave Strong]

How did a discussion about not knowing how big to make a hole fit a cylinder get into a discussion about props.:rolleyes:

Dave

[eli]

chaz did ,first a pic making clouds then cool lookin props to make us wonder ,lol

[powerabout]

How did a discussion about not knowing how big to make a hole fit a cylinder get into a discussion about props.:rolleyes:

Dave
thats the internet for you

[Markus]

like the prop on the v4 75hp omc on a hydro that did 130mph in 1966, dont think they make one that good today?

Well, specifically, and apologies for turning this into a discussion about props:

The big drum Mach cleavers, worked by local prop gurus, were a favorite on light Nordic cat hulls with single engines (e.g. Argos). Local stock of new Mach propellers ran out at some point around the turn of the century.

[powerabout]

Well, specifically, and apologies for turning this into a discussion about props:

The big drum Mach cleavers, worked by local prop gurus, were a favorite on light Nordic cat hulls with single engines (e.g. Argos). Local stock of new Mach propellers ran out at some point around the turn of the century.
sounds like a business opportunity

[Dave S]

Thread drift.......

[cdubya]

Thread drift.......

Drift or derailment?

[Motv18]

Got me,

so so I got my tomatoes and cucumbers planted, and some Anaheim’s

you know now what bothers me hash marks on pinned rings. ( in class some teach the hash is for rotation in the rings ) it’s like huh

and what about thoes no gaps that shoes up were theirs still gap but they have the overlap. Anyone tried them on a inboard.

[Chaz]

How did a discussion about not knowing how big to make a hole fit a cylinder get into a discussion about props.:rolleyes:

Dave

Welp .. the best I can tell .. Markus won't tell me a fair price to charge Yourpeeins to install sleeves.

But he does have a fetish for antique props, motors and hulls .. but won't say which ones .. :nonod:

I posted a pic of the flower vase the ball and chain got at the art festival over the weekend .. eli wants to try it on his boat .

It fondly reminded Power of days gone by of mini OMC's dancing in his head.

Which sparked thoughts of depleted big barrel Mach wheels and how mighty they once were.

I just bought 1000 IPO shares of PowerMachusProps @ lunch time and doubled my money by closing bell .. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

When the weather cools off a little , we all goin to Momo18's place for some killer "mater ~ sammichs "

dats all I know fo now ... ehh :D

[Dave S]

chaz..... can you cut a crank to make it lighter? Just my 3.4 project......planted seeds but no results....

[Chaz]

No sir, they case harden the whole thing. :nonod:

I'd be nice to be able to turn the rod journals on a scuffed one and send it again, but :nonod:

I have found some bit's that will break thru the "skin" on the counter, so they can be balanced though ... :thumbsup:

https://i.imgur.com/m86G8oJl.jpg

And bought a bob-weight set and made up a small diameter pin / light parts kit for it :)

https://i.imgur.com/tH15jRdl.jpg

[Dave S]

That's what I was thinking..... too hard.......so 50 lbs of rotating......no need for flywheel.....other than ring gear.

[Chaz]

The majority of the weight is close to the centerline and fairly streamlined. The only two places there is any "excess material" is in the the counters at each end. If you got rid of them, you would have to put it back with slugs closer to the center.
Six of one ... ;)
Normal balance (3.0L) takes bout 20g off the bottom weight. You can either drill it or do a little semi knife edge with a flapper wheel.

[Dave S]

I was thinking taking off lbs.......on each round thing that holds the rings .....that seps each cly....On the side out of the crank case area. Taking off more metal close to the crank pin to lessen the need for the big counter weights at each end of the crank.

[Markus]

Drift or derailment?

Well, bear in mind that this thread started about how one brand of pistons and rings were different than a different brand of pistons and rings that are different. Which is not surprising since they are different. I.e. they are not the same.

So, I think we actually made it better.

:D

[powerabout]

So whats your favorite ring package
2 rectangular 040 thick?

[Markus]

So whats your favorite ring package
2 rectangular 040 thick?

Are you trying to trick me into bringing this thread back to discussing piston rings?

:D

[eli]

think everybody's rings ok ,start new thread who likes boobies lol

[Dave S]

keystone rings best.... than L shaped.... Quincy looper rings....end......Kstone.... self cleaning......omc and force rings at 90 # cut are fragle......JMO....I like the newer OME merc rings stout......

[Motv18]

Eli, boobies are ok but to big and things start knocking when they shouldn’t, so keep um flat and you’ll stay safe. Now dished is just for blowers.

[Chaz]

Best of both worlds "Monster Energy Cup" :p

.028 x .140 He11fire top
.032 Napier second
2 mm 10 lb oil ring

Unless they came out with something better in the last couple weeks since Talladega ... ;)


Dave ... need pit-cher of 3.4 crank to get back on - off topic ... :D

[powerabout]

oil rings, thats whats missing from my engine!

[Chaz]

So whats your favorite ring package

Power ol buddy ... This was the question you axed .. https://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_super.gif

Chaz = thinkin I'm not going to go all in over a set of hoops that Ralph gave Frances one night in a drunken stupor on the Chanticleer ... :)

[powerabout]

Power ol buddy ... This was the question you axed .. https://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_super.gif

Chaz = thinkin I'm not going to go all in over a set of hoops that Ralph gave Frances one night in a drunken stupor on the Chanticleer ... :)

In a 2 stroke, i should have said

[Chaz]

In a 2 stroke, i should have said

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Langford


Pretty much stuck with what they come with. Only Wiseco offers customs, and that's very limited .. :thumbsup: