300R vs 300X

[PRE-Z06]

Does the new V8 make as much hp as the old 2-stroke? Just curious if anyone has dynoed both on the same dyno or ran both on the same boat for direct comparison as comments like the one below saying the R makes more than the published 316hp and the X made 326hp according to DBR, not sure if numbers are corrected the same or not. The X ran 104mph on 20’ Bullet and the R 103mph on a 21’ Bullet, so it seems maybe it is pushing the 10% limit like the X was.

http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=972249
http://www.davebushracing.com/mercury-optimax300x-update.html
http://bassboatexchange.com/bullet-boats-104mph-20xd-bullet

[XstreamVking]

I have known from the 1st tests of the new motors that they were very underrated to insure beating the XS 300's. If they didn't, no one would buy them.....I would guess they push 330hp...

[Greg G]

Maybe he will see this and pipe up but Wildman has run both the X and the XS against each other on a few different hulls and he said there was at best a couple mph difference during those test sessions if I recall. He is now all over the R motors comparing those as well.

[PRE-Z06]

I have known from the 1st tests of the new motors that they were very underrated to insure beating the XS 300's. If they didn't, no one would buy them.....I would guess they push 330hp...
I have no doubt the R makes more than the XS, based on results below even though they’re not same day as when the R went 103. I’m just curious if the ranking below of the 300hp Mercs would be correct?
300 SeaPro<300 PRO XS<300XS<300R<300X

http://bassboatexchange.com/300xs-optimax-mercury-outboard-engine-test-review

[JPEROG]

I have several X motors and can tell you the R makes more power, more torque, has better manners in every aspect, and is way better on fuel, but they are expensive. Randy has run 5 or 6 mph faster then he went with any previous motors X, XS, and 400R on his 21 liberators. Steve has run 110 with his Bullet bass boat. They are the best answer out there today and I was never a 4 stroke fan when the inline 6 was our only option.

Joe

[PRE-Z06]

I have several X motors and can tell you the R makes more power, more torque, has better manners in every aspect, and is way better on fuel, but they are expensive. Randy has run 5 or 6 mph faster then he went with any previous motors X, XS, and 400R on his 21 liberators. Steve has run 110 with his Bullet bass boat. They are the best answer out there today and I was never a 4 stroke fan when the inline 6 was our only option.

Joe

Thanks Joe, I have no doubt the 4.6L V8 makes more low end torque even with the R’s shorter intake runners and cams that shift the power curve up. I never liked the supercharged 6s because of weight and heat from compressing the air, but to hear the 300R outperformed the 400R has me questioning the quality of fuel used. Both on 87 octane I could possibly believe enough timing was pulled to even things out as CARB reports show it making 390hp@7000rpm, granted the 300R is ~150lbs lighter than 400R. Looks like same prop only saw a 1-2mph gain from 300XS with 300R, the 5-blade CNC cleaver gave it an extra 3-4mph. Is that the same prop on the Bullet with 300R that went 103?

http://www.mercuryracing.com/liberated-300r/

[PRE-Z06]

Mercury states the 300R went 97mph with it’s non CNC 5-blade below, which means similar gains as with the CNC prop on the Liberator. The 21’ Bullet with 300XS did 96 in the test above which is similar to the 1-2mph difference mentioned in the Liberator comparison with the same prop. How many hp is needed at triple digits to pick up a mph?
http://www.mercuryracing.com/boat-propellers/outboard/max5-st/

Doesn’t look like taller gear ratios are coming with the release of taller pitch props...
http://www.mercuryracing.com/boat-propellers/outboard/bravo-i-fs/

[Greg G]

I always wondered if Wildman has ever run an X, an XS, and an R on the exact same hull over the years and kept the data.

[Beak Boater]

I know Randy ran an XS and an R motor on the same 21 Liberator for a comparison. Remember the R was faster, but Im sure he will be along shortly to share the particulars.

[PRE-Z06]

I know Randy ran an XS and an R motor on the same 21 Liberator for a comparison. Remember the R was faster, but Im sure he will be along shortly to share the particulars.
I have no doubt the R is faster than the XS, the X was faster than the XS too correct?

[LMT383]

8cyl Vs 6cyl...

[PRE-Z06]

8cyl Vs 6cyl...

4-stroke vs 2-stroke...which ~50% more displacement is usually needed to equal the power output being combustion happens half as often, hence 3.0/3.2 vs 4.6

[XstreamVking]

Only advantage to a 4s is the ease of huffing them.

[JPEROG]

They will never run that much better then an X or an XS without having them propped correctly and the engine height being up to get the bigger case to surface. These new gear cases are .600 bigger in dia. so you need to go at least that much bigger in prop dia. to compensate then they also take advantage of being able to turn a 5 blade for hook up and efficiency on top of that.

There is no sense in commenting about them unless you have experienced it. Both Randy and I were anti four stroke and never had an appreciation for a 400R in a single application. -I didn't think they were ever going to come out with anything better then an X again "I was wrong".

These motors are also set up in a totally "de-tuned" form so that they can run on swamp fuel-There should be very little warranty claims in this form. Give it a little time and see what happens when someone puts some compression, cams, and head work into the picture. It will be the ultimate outboard under 550 lbs. and will make the best river rat motor ever.

Joe

[Cary 29]

Sounds awesome, can't wait... Just wish mine would show up... Praying like crazy up here in the north...

[Greg G]

Even though props stink, I guess it is becoming harder to argue with 87 Octane, 5 years of warranty, and 561 lbs.

[PRE-Z06]

They will never run that much better then an X or an XS without having them propped correctly and the engine height being up to get the bigger case to surface. These new gear cases are .600 bigger in dia. so you need to go at least that much bigger in prop dia. to compensate then they also take advantage of being able to turn a 5 blade for hook up and efficiency on top of that.

There is no sense in commenting about them unless you have experienced it. Both Randy and I were anti four stroke and never had an appreciation for a 400R in a single application. -I didn't think they were ever going to come out with anything better then an X again "I was wrong".

These motors are also set up in a totally "de-tuned" form so that they can run on swamp fuel-There should be very little warranty claims in this form. Give it a little time and see what happens when someone puts some compression, cams, and head work into the picture. It will be the ultimate outboard under 550 lbs. and will make the best river rat motor ever.

Joe

Agreed they sound great, are very durable and have potential just wish they didn’t weigh so much, it’s like the new Corvette’s getting heavier unfortunately.

[Turborr]

I understand that the new technology is the real deal...but the question that hasn't been answered yet is if you put the same 5k prop on a x or an xs...what is the difference in performance? I realize that the gearcase limits the performance on the r unless you use a specific prop....but if you spend the same amount of money on a prop on the x or the xs....is it close in performance?

[Whaaaaat]

I understand that the new technology is the real deal...but the question that hasn't been answered yet is if you put the same 5k prop on a x or an xs...what is the difference in performance? I realize that the gearcase limits the performance on the r unless you use a specific prop....but if you spend the same amount of money on a prop on the x or the xs....is it close in performance?

Stop asking questions like that. Here just calm down now and have some koolaid.

[wicheckmate]

If you put a newer 4-5 thousand dollar large cleaver on an X or XS would top speed be similar??? Possibly, but it would have to have the torque to get their first and i would think low and mid-range would suck horribly compared to the new 300r. This is the new platform, even the Verado is now going to be limited with its time.

[Greg G]

I highly doubt you will ever see someone test a 300R with the big CNC prop and then test a 300XS with the exact same prop in a smaller size.

[Z06man]

I will try 1 on my Twister next week with 300x . Will have results with Twister with 300R soon after .

[JPEROG]

The X struggles to get to rpm with the big 5 blade. It bites a good bit more then the 4 blade DeWalds that I usually run-

Joe

[Double Rigged]

Personally unit the 300r has a 1.62 gear or unless someone has a 300x with a 1.75 you cannot get a fair comparison. I can tell you i spin a large 15” 5 blade Dewald however it is a 30p and 1.62. It will turn 7000rpm and have no trouble spinning it up!
JMO

[JPEROG]

Personally unit the 300r has a 1.62 gear or unless someone has a 300x with a 1.75 you cannot get a fair comparison. I can tell you i spin a large 15” 5 blade Dewald however it is a 30p and 1.62. It will turn 7000rpm and have no trouble spinning it up!
JMO

We are talking about a merc cnc 5 blade 15.25 34P.

Joe

[Double Rigged]

We are talking about a merc cnc 5 blade 15.25 34P.

Joe
I get that. Motors would need the same gear ratio. Kind of like saying can a 300r turn that prop with a 1.62. I think everyone understands you cannot beat cubic inch but it is really a dumb comparison. Motors power/torque curves are too different. Each requires a different set up. No doubt the motors are nice have potential in the future but in the end HP is HP. Just need to put it to the water! I am looking forward the next step for that engine and that is when things will get interesting. However you need a small fortune to buy them.

[Greg G]

I will try 1 on my Twister next week with 300x . Will have results with Twister with 300R soon after .

What size Merc CNC 5 blade are you planning on using on your 300X?

[wicheckmate]

They did just release new gears for the 4 stroke... 1.60

[PRE-Z06]

They did just release new gears for the 4 stroke... 1.60
Sweet!

http://www.mercuryracing.com/new-1-601-sport-master-300r-fourstrokes/

[powerabout]

any design changes to help the propshaft live?

[powerabout]

any design changes to help the propshaft live?

How about 1 piece race version?

[WILDMAN]

Steve Bishop ran 111.4 with the 300R on his 20ft Bullet and 106 with his 21ft Bullet. Both with a 34 x 15.25 Merc CNC or a Hill Signature 5 blade cleaver. They run the same speeds. I have run 4 21 and 22 Liberators with the same prop and 300R. All ran 111-113 with just me in the boat. On all these boats, the 300R was 10-12 mph faster than the 300xs.

[PRE-Z06]

Steve Bishop ran 111.4 with the 300R on his 20ft Bullet and 106 with his 21ft Bullet. Both with a 34 x 15.25 Merc CNC or a Hill Signature 5 blade cleaver. They run the same speeds. I have run 4 21 and 22 Liberators with the same prop and 300R. All ran 111-113 with just me in the boat. On all these boats, the 300R was 10-12 mph faster than the 300xs.
I saw that posted the other day, impressive that the 20’ Bullet was 8 mph faster than the 21’ same motor and prop.

[tripower]

Would like to know what they run with a regular working man's prop that's $500-$700 or so. Rocks happen around here, and $2K, $3K, $5K props ain't gonna happen for me :-)

[WILDMAN]

His 20 was 5 mph faster



I saw that posted the other day, impressive that the 20’ Bullet was 8 mph faster than the 21’ same motor and prop.

[powerabout]

Steve Bishop ran 111.4 with the 300R on his 20ft Bullet and 106 with his 21ft Bullet. Both with a 34 x 15.25 Merc CNC or a Hill Signature 5 blade cleaver. They run the same speeds. I have run 4 21 and 22 Liberators with the same prop and 300R. All ran 111-113 with just me in the boat. On all these boats, the 300R was 10-12 mph faster than the 300xs.
with same ratio and prop 300R v 300xs?

[JPEROG]

This has all been done with the 1.75 gear so far. The 1.60 should pick up another couple mph if it stays consistent with what mercury has seen in their testing.

Joe

[PRE-Z06]

His 20 was 5 mph faster
I missed that, was referencing Mercs 103 originally. Still didn’t realize there was that much difference between the two, how much do you think the lightweight batteries are worth? I’m guessing the ~3mph difference than what they got at Lake X?

[PRE-Z06]

Would like to know what they run with a regular working man's prop that's $500-$700 or so. Rocks happen around here, and $2K, $3K, $5K props ain't gonna happen for me :-)
Maybe someone else can tell what prop the 92mph referenced here was done with...
https://youtu.be/mQvtdoDfsIQ

[WILDMAN]

We have never found a cheaper prop that will hook up on a 300R. They must be over 15" diameter. I ran a 36x14.5 Dewald four blade and it was on the limiter at 90 mph. That's over 30% slip! Steve and I have spent alot of time testing the new motors. All the best speeds were with 5 blade cleavers by Mercury, $5500 or the new Hill signature 5 blade, I sell them for $2150 to your door. They run the EXACT same speed. I believe Steve's 106 on his 21 was with the trolling motor removed, but he still had two powerpoles on which creates alot of wind drag. I have tested the Mercury Max5 on 3 of the 21 and 22 Liberators and they all ran 103. A "Bullet" cut Performer 34x15.5 ran 106 and is about $900. I think Steve ran a little over 100 with the Performer.

[PRE-Z06]

We have never found a cheaper prop that will hook up on a 300R. They must be over 15" diameter. I ran a 36x14.5 Dewald four blade and it was on the limiter at 90 mph. That's over 30% slip! Steve and I have spent alot of time testing the new motors. All the best speeds were with 5 blade cleavers by Mercury, $5500 or the new Hill signature 5 blade, I sell them for $2150 to your door. They run the EXACT same speed. I believe Steve's 106 on his 21 was with the trolling motor removed, but he still had two powerpoles on which creates alot of wind drag. I have tested the Mercury Max5 on 3 of the 21 and 22 Liberators and they all ran 103. A "Bullet" cut Performer 34x15.5 ran 106 and is about $900. I think Steve ran a little over 100 with the Performer.
Have you run one of the new high pitch Bravo FS by chance that is 15.25” and Mercury claims is for the 300R?
http://www.mercuryracing.com/boat-propellers/outboard/bravo-i-fs/

[WILDMAN]

Steve has. He has also had Mercury modify them to test. I think he said they were OK with a tournament load. I don't think he broke 100 though. I will show him this thread. Maybe he can add some info.

[XstreamVking]

300R vs 300X ....Only explanation for faster speeds running the 300R is mo hp. Merc is the originator of underrating their engines. Wanna sell a crap load of new engines? Make them stronger than the old ones and still display the same hp stickers as the old ones had. The new motors are great, and fast. but let's be real here. Speed is a factor of power.

[powerabout]

300R vs 300X ....Only explanation for faster speeds running the 300R is mo hp. Merc is the originator of underrating their engines. Wanna sell a crap load of new engines? Make them stronger than the old ones and still display the same hp stickers as the old ones had. The new motors are great, and fast. but let's be real here. Speed is a factor of power.
my 4.0 v8 omc is killing the 150hp bass boat class..lol

[PRE-Z06]

300R vs 300X ....Only explanation for faster speeds running the 300R is mo hp. Merc is the originator of underrating their engines. Wanna sell a crap load of new engines? Make them stronger than the old ones and still display the same hp stickers as the old ones had. The new motors are great, and fast. but let's be real here. Speed is a factor of power.

I hear what you’re saying and agree, I just thought the 300X was pushing the 10% rule and that’s why I referenced it as the benchmark. Props and batteries contribute to speed as well as power. If the 20XD did 104mph with a passenger, 3 full size batteries and a non CNC prop with the old X, then it did 111 without a passenger, lightweight batteries and CNC prop with the R, how much of that gain was from HP alone? You’re right the numbers on the cowling don’t mean much as the new 300hp SeaPro, Pro XS, and R vary by 20hp each according to CARB reports. Some people question the accuracy of those but in this day and age of emissions, a manufacturer is paying for the amount of pollution their engine creates and horsepower is related to that so I don’t think they’re going to be fudging the numbers.

[wicheckmate]

300R vs 300X ....Only explanation for faster speeds running the 300R is mo hp. Merc is the originator of underrating their engines. Wanna sell a crap load of new engines? Make them stronger than the old ones and still display the same hp stickers as the old ones had. The new motors are great, and fast. but let's be real here. Speed is a factor of power.


Sort of ..... Torque....... Curve... and ignition .

[PRE-Z06]

Would like to know what they run with a regular working man's prop that's $500-$700 or so. Rocks happen around here, and $2K, $3K, $5K props ain't gonna happen for me :-)
post 11 results are impressive with a 36” Bravo pushing a 300R on a 20XD into the triple digits
http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=978123

[Fastbasser1]

I was doubtful before I owned one too. The thing is you just can’t possibly imagine the difference until you own/ set one up right. I had one on my 20’1” Bullet first, and now on my 21’10” Bullet. Everyone wants to credit the Cnc, but the facts are I broke 100 with a $600 stock bravo l. That’s a feat I never could do with my xs. On a Bullet that’s like having the best of both worlds. Holeshot and Top end. I’ve had a 1.75 on my xs as well, and I couldn’t dream of turning the props the R will. One at a time the world will learn

[Greg G]

What GPS speed did you run with the stock Bravo One prop with the R?

[PRE-Z06]

I was doubtful before I owned one too. The thing is you just can’t possibly imagine the difference until you own/ set one up right. I had one on my 20’1” Bullet first, and now on my 21’10” Bullet. Everyone wants to credit the Cnc, but the facts are I broke 100 with a $600 stock bravo l. That’s a feat I never could do with my xs. On a Bullet that’s like having the best of both worlds. Holeshot and Top end. I’ve had a 1.75 on my xs as well, and I couldn’t dream of turning the props the R will. One at a time the world will learn

Appreciate you sharing results as this thread was so vague, which leaves one questioning...
http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=935367

[LOSTINJ]

can we at least agree the new 300 r is big , ugly and stupid looking ? They should be faster, 2 extra cyl ! from the the working man ill never want a engine that has 70 % more parts . In few years they will be throw away as the cost to rebuild will be crazy .

[PRE-Z06]

can we at least agree the new 300 r is big , ugly and stupid looking ? They should be faster, 2 extra cyl ! from the the working man ill never want a engine that has 70 % more parts . In few years they will be throw away as the cost to rebuild will be crazy .
It’s bigger and heavier, but it’ll last longer than the 2-stroke as it fires half as much and turns less rpm. 2 extra cylinders aren’t going to automatically make it faster, it needs more displacement to make up for the fact it fires half as often. Those cubic inches mean more lowend torque hence the ability to swing bigger props. Smaller cylinder bores and 4 valves per cylinder make for a more efficient bang, would be interesting to compare the BSFC of the two.

[AZMIDLYF]

I'll take a 15 inch thank you....and the tune will change quickly. :leaving:

[LOSTINJ]

wait till you get the bill for a rebuild in few years with 300 r vs 2 stroke .

[Chaz]

It’s bigger and heavier, but it’ll last longer than the 2-stroke as it fires half as much and turns less rpm. 2 extra cylinders aren’t going to automatically make it faster, it needs more displacement to make up for the fact it fires half as often. Those cubic inches mean more lowend torque hence the ability to swing bigger props. Smaller cylinder bores and 4 valves per cylinder make for a more efficient bang, would be interesting to compare the BSFC of the two.

And they cost $25 -35,000.oo thousand dollars ..... EACH :eek:

Do you have any idea how many 400+ hp 3.4 or 3.6 litre long blocks you can build for that kind of money .... ??? :)

No sir Mr. Smyth, they won't be as socially acceptable at the country club .. :p

Smokey, loud, stinky, (Klotz) start in gear, low end starts @ 3000 etc. ;)

Their two strokes .. they blow fuel out the exhaust. BSFC are around .7 which is terrible, considering a Pro/Stock car sips fuel in the .42 range.
On an A/F ratio gauge mine run 11.5-12 @ torque peak and dance around in the ten's above and below. If I was looking for fuel mileage , I would just drive my truck.

What about inchs ..

A 3.4 or 207 ci making 400 + hp = 2 hp /ci Nothing really special there, Bill Jenkins made 600 hp from a pushrod 292 (283 Chevrolet) in the 1960's

Merc's new 4.6 280 ci 300 hp :rolleyes: Really 1.07 HP / ci .. Yawwnnnn ... :p

Does a max effort deal have the potential to make 750- 800 on mule .. absolutely. But as long as people have to take them back to the Toyota .. err .. Merc store to have the oil changed .. :nonod: it ain't gonna happen .. :nonod:

What I learned from having a 706 ci Big Chief motor in a rear engine dragster was that I could be off a little on the tune-up. The torque converter could be a little too tight etc. and the sheer size of the motor would mask the combinations shortcomings and allow the car to still perform well. I think thats what we will see with this motor. Lots of people will be off, and never know it .. some prob won't even care. What they get as a set-up from the dealer will be more than they expected.
It's a really nice motor and all , but as far as the king ... pppffttttt

[PRE-Z06]

And they cost $25 -35,000.oo thousand dollars ..... EACH :eek:

Do you have any idea how many 400+ hp 3.4 or 3.6 litre long blocks you can build for that kind of money .... ??? :)

No sir Mr. Smyth, they won't be as socially acceptable at the country club .. :p

Smokey, loud, stinky, (Klotz) start in gear, low end starts @ 3000 etc. ;)

Their two strokes .. they blow fuel out the exhaust. BSFC are around .7 which is terrible, considering a Pro/Stock car sips fuel in the .42 range.
On an A/F ratio gauge mine run 11.5-12 @ torque peak and dance around in the ten's above and below. If I was looking for fuel mileage , I would just drive my truck.

What about inchs ..

A 3.4 or 207 ci making 400 + hp = 2 hp /ci Nothing really special there, Bill Jenkins made 600 hp from a pushrod 292 (283 Chevrolet) in the 1960's

Merc's new 4.6 280 ci 300 hp :rolleyes: Really 1.07 HP / ci .. Yawwnnnn ... :p

Does a max effort deal have the potential to make 750- 800 on mule .. absolutely. But as long as people have to take them back to the Toyota .. err .. Merc store to have the oil changed .. :nonod: it ain't gonna happen .. :nonod:

What I learned from having a 706 ci Big Chief motor in a rear engine dragster was that I could be off a little on the tune-up. The torque converter could be a little too tight etc. and the sheer size of the motor would mask the combinations shortcomings and allow the car to still perform well. I think thats what we will see with this motor. Lots of people will be off, and never know it .. some prob won't even care. What they get as a set-up from the dealer will be more than they expected.
It's a really nice motor and all , but as far as the king ... pppffttttt
Agreed, easier to prop.

I thought they were in the .37 range, but they also don’t last as long. Regardless I think we can agree the 300R is far from max effort. It’s really only fair to compare it to the 300XS as it had a similar rev limiter. If compression is raised and the intake/exhaust will support more airflow with bigger cams then the 4.6L will obviously make more hp than the 300X at 7000rpm. An outboard has more packaging restrictions than an engine in a car though, so don’t feel it’s a fair comparison. Though a $35k 2019 emission compliant 60k mile warranty dime a dozen Mustang GT makes 460hp@7000 and the Bullitt 480hp, which is almost 100hp/L. RPMs are going to create heat and limit longevity though. They do have a longer warranty I believe than any other engine that’s come out of the Racing department and they only run on 87 octane. When will we see some modified ones is my question. Is Simon’s tuning even changing the timing to require premium fuel?

[Chaz]

Agreed, easier to prop.

I thought they were in the .37 range, but they also don’t last as long.

Anything under .5 is making good use of converting fuel load to BTU's. It's been a long time since I've seen a P/S trail the blue cloud death. They usually shake the tires, or lack of downforce will push them out of the groove. Other than that, the trip is pretty uneventful for a 6.50 / 212 jaunt.


Regardless I think we can agree the 300R is far from max effort. It’s really only fair to compare it to the 300XS as it had a similar rev limiter. If compression is raised and the intake/exhaust will support more airflow with bigger cams then the 4.6L will obviously make more hp than the 300X at 7000rpm.

I stated in it's present tune it was "pretty much asleep" .

Rev limiter, really, I can find you a 90 or 150 that chips out the same .. would that be a good comparison .. ???

Does the 300R have a compressor .. ???

Maybe we should throw one of Montey's 500 HP V-8's in the pile .. ??? :D

As far as pistons, cyl head development, cam shafts, conduit modifications ... as of now, it's no more than "if my aunt was my uncle" .. right ..;)


An outboard has more packaging restrictions than an engine in a car though, so don’t feel it’s a fair comparison. Though a $35k 2019 emission compliant 60k mile warranty dime a dozen Mustang GT makes 460hp@7000 and the Bullitt 480hp, which is almost 100hp/L. RPMs are going to create heat and limit longevity though. They do have a longer warranty I believe than any other engine that’s come out of the Racing department and they only run on 87 octane. When will we see some modified ones is my question. Is Simon’s tuning even changing the timing to require premium fuel?

If you notice I didn't use something like a Yamaha 5 valve head where the throttle bodies are straight up into the area where a normal gas tank would be as a baseline.
No, I mentioned a small bore, pushrod, iron block with iron two valve heads that have deep shrouded chambers that Smokey said in 1953 that the ports were to low to ever make any power. And that 47 years ago they used it to make 2 hp / ci . :)

Don't look now, but you just compared the 300R to a 4.6 Ford. If anything it closer resemble's a GXSR , Hyabusa, R1 , than a Ford or Chevy. And you really don't want to see how far the tune-up is in the back seat compared to one them .. :nonod:

You would have to ask the people who B+E the box's directly. Mercury has made it harder to crack the code. And most of what I read is .. I ordered mine X amount of months ago, sure wish I has it/ them. As opposed to, OK I'm over it, how do I step this pork-chop up a bit ... :cheers:

[PRE-Z06]

Anything under .5 is making good use of converting fuel load to BTU's. It's been a long time since I've seen a P/S trail the blue cloud death. They usually shake the tires, or lack of downforce will push them out of the groove. Other than that, the trip is pretty uneventful for a 6.50 / 212 jaunt.



I stated in it's present tune it was "pretty much asleep" .

Rev limiter, really, I can find you a 90 or 150 that chips out the same .. would that be a good comparison .. ???

Does the 300R have a compressor .. ???

Maybe we should throw one of Montey's 500 HP V-8's in the pile .. ??? :D

As far as pistons, cyl head development, cam shafts, conduit modifications ... as of now, it's no more than "if my aunt was my uncle" .. right ..;)



If you notice I didn't use something like a Yamaha 5 valve head where the throttle bodies are straight up into the area where a normal gas tank would be as a baseline.
No, I mentioned a small bore, pushrod, iron block with iron two valve heads that have deep shrouded chambers that Smokey said in 1953 that the ports were to low to ever make any power. And that 47 years ago they used it to make 2 hp / ci . :)

Don't look now, but you just compared the 300R to a 4.6 Ford. If anything it closer resemble's a GXSR , Hyabusa, R1 , than a Ford or Chevy. And you really don't want to see how far the tune-up is in the back seat compared to one them .. :nonod:

You would have to ask the people who B+E the box's directly. Mercury has made it harder to crack the code. And most of what I read is .. I ordered mine X amount of months ago, sure wish I has it/ them. As opposed to, OK I'm over it, how do I step this pork-chop up a bit ... :cheers:

I’m comparing production emission compliant engines not max effort race builds. RPMs are going to dictate power as long as the engine can efficiently pump air through as it spins higher. Motorcycle engines don’t have the lowend to be outboards in my humble opinion and they don’t idle low enough as there’s a trade off with moving the powerband up which I’m sure you understand. The R is “asleep” yet still makes as much if not more than the hotter X. It’s fairer to compare engines that peak at a similar RPM, which I don’t think the XS stands a chance compared to the R. If the R makes as much if not more than the X, then which would you expect to last longer at WOT?

I chose the 5.0 Coyote because it is DOHC and has fixed valve events like the R yet makes peak hp at a higher 7000rpm like the X. I’d take it for longevity reasons over the balanced and blueprinted, crossram, solid lifter, race gas 7800rpm 302 below as it doesn’t need valve lash adjustments, runs on pump gas while making more power with headers and tuning, includes a 60k mile warranty and still spins to 7500. I’m curious what standard was the 600hp 292 corrected too? What compression ratio, what rpm did it make peak power and was it 23* heads?
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/members/AardvarkPublisherAttachments/9990287062013/1968-03_HR_Smokey_Yunick_302_1-4.pdf
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0508-smokey-yunick-trans-am-camaro-engine/

[WILDMAN]

Getting a little off-topic aren't we? I had a Honda CB 160 motorcycle when I was 16

[Captin Hazlewood]

This thread reminds me when I bought my 300xs many years ago. All the car motor boat guys were shrieking the standard “Do you know how many big blocks I could build for that kind of money?” Whatever... Thing is very few of them did and the ones that did had to rebuild them within a year or 2. My 300xs 10 years later still runs as good as new. And has required very minimal maintenance. (Mostly gear oil). So go buy what you want!

[Chaz]

Getting a little off-topic aren't we? I had a Honda CB 160 motorcycle when I was 16

No .. not really. Ya just gotta be willing to walk out on the ledge with him and talk him back down .. :D

Doug Swick over in Lakeland had the nicest collection of 160, 305 and 350 Honda , Dream's , CB's and CL's I have ever seen .. ifin ya ever want to relive your childhood a lil .. :)



I’m comparing production emission compliant engines not max effort race builds. RPMs are going to dictate power as long as the engine can efficiently pump air through as it spins higher. Motorcycle engines don’t have the lowend to be outboards in my humble opinion and they don’t idle low enough as there’s a trade off with moving the powerband up which I’m sure you understand. The R is “asleep” yet still makes as much if not more than the hotter X. It’s fairer to compare engines that peak at a similar RPM, which I don’t think the XS stands a chance compared to the R. If the R makes as much if not more than the X, then which would you expect to last longer at WOT?

Don't go demon-rat on me by pullin the bait and switch. Title say's 300R vs 300x. Today it has to be stock production ? Emissions compliant .. LMAO Maybe get Nasty Peloski to hold the meter ? :rolleyes:

Put the dyno sweeps away on the bike motor and the 6 speed powerband. Ever rode a car tire, wheelie bar 1327cc Suzuki with a 1,2,3 auto ? ;)

My point being ... pull the fairing off of an R-1 . The cawl off of a 300R and lift the hood on a 55 Chevy as John Q Pedestrian family traffic walks past , ask of them , which two engines look more alike .. :p

OK now that , that is cleared up . My reference to the antique .. is how long ago and with such substandard equipment , they were able to drag 2 hp / ci .. Just a simple fact .. nothing to get "teck-locked" over ... for days .. :nonod: :smiletest:

Now back to why I posted in the first place ..

It would be real nice to have a few 300x powerheads 8-10K each. I'd sell in a heartbeat , unless they are gonna be worth 12-15K after Trump wins again.:eek:

Air compressor .. I gotz one of them little ones you plug in the cig lighter so the girls can blow up their rafts .. the rest are back at the shop where they belong :p

300R $30,000.00+ a copy .. $60,000.00 to fill my transom. I won't waste your time repeating myself ... Let me just say, I believe that someday I'll see my dad again. And if I spent that kind of money on "just two outboard motors" .. well it wouldn't be pretty :nonod: :D


Correction factor ... Observed , and the slick one had a Polaroid :thumbsup:

https://tse1.explicit.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Fbaf6iAQ9PHm0zLL40ziyQHaFj&pid=Api&P=0&w=217&h=163

[PRE-Z06]

No .. not really. Ya just gotta be willing to walk out on the ledge with him and talk him back down .. :D

Doug Swick over in Lakeland had the nicest collection of 160, 305 and 350 Honda , Dream's , CB's and CL's I have ever seen .. ifin ya ever want to relive your childhood a lil .. :)



[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] Don't go demon-rat on me by pullin the bait and switch. Title say's 300R vs 300x. Today it has to be stock production ? Emissions compliant .. LMAO Maybe get Nasty Peloski to hold the meter ? :rolleyes:

Put the dyno sweeps away on the bike motor and the 6 speed powerband. Ever rode a car tire, wheelie bar 1327cc Suzuki with a 1,2,3 auto ? ;)

My point being ... pull the fairing off of an R-1 . The cawl off of a 300R and lift the hood on a 55 Chevy as John Q Pedestrian family traffic walks past , ask of them , which two engines look more alike .. :p

OK now that , that is cleared up . My reference to the antique .. is how long ago and with such substandard equipment , they were able to drag 2 hp / ci .. Just a simple fact .. nothing to get "teck-locked" over ... for days .. :nonod: :smiletest:

Now back to why I posted in the first place ..

It would be real nice to have a few 300x powerheads 8-10K each. I'd sell in a heartbeat , unless they are gonna be worth 12-15K after Trump wins again.:eek:

Air compressor .. I gotz one of them little ones you plug in the cig lighter so the girls can blow up their rafts .. the rest are back at the shop where they belong :p

300R $30,000.00+ a copy .. $60,000.00 to fill my transom. I won't waste your time repeating myself ... Let me just say, I believe that someday I'll see my dad again. And if I spent that kind of money on "just two outboard motors" .. well it wouldn't be pretty :nonod: :D


Correction factor ... Observed , and the slick one had a Polaroid :thumbsup:

https://tse1.explicit.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Fbaf6iAQ9PHm0zLL40ziyQHaFj&pid=Api&P=0&w=217&h=163
I like anything fast and love doing it on a budget, but the motto at the shop was pick two of the three as all of them don’t exist together(fast, cheap and reliable)

I got my motorcycle licensed before heading to be stationed overseas in Navy, but decided it was safer to stick with 4-wheels than 2 after riding buddies FZ6 which was slower than the Vette, getting married and having kids also played a factor. Our fabricator had a 1000RR that went 8.8@162 though with just a pipe, filter, tune, sprocket and stretching.

I started the thread comparing the original engines as they came, which unfortunately includes emissions crap. I wish I could go back in time as it is impressive what was done back in the day and still appreciate it is why I asked about the details on the gen1 sbc that you brought up. I personally don’t make the correlation of a 10k Rpm I4 and 6k Rpm V8, so my apologies.

[Chaz]

Why would you need an engine builder, when you can buy GM crate motors.
Why would you need a body + chassis man when you can find another C-6 on Craigslist.
For that matter, why would you need a shop with all those expenses, when you can get fast and reliable right from a GM outlet like Scoggen's. Are you saying you can do better than the general .. ??? ;)

When one of Mercury Racing's employees was at my shop and saw the base of a 3.0L block I was preparing. He asked : What is this , I said , you know what it is , a simple and effective fix .. so all 10 powerhead studs can be pulled down to 47 ft/lbs instead of leaving stud #9 and #10 back at the second pull of 29 ft/lbs.
His eyes said : Why didn't I think of that , but his mouth said , we will be phasing two strokes out in the next couple of years .. so it really doesn't matter at this point.
I took it as quite a compliment, and I thanked him for the information and said something to the effect of Do you think the dozen or so cores I have , will last me , or should I hoard up a few more .. :smiletest:

BTW .. I've got to order another two dozen of my custom 3.6L sleeves tomorrow. You got me thinking about the reliability end of it. I'm gonna sleep on it, but I think if he's got the blanks, I'm gonna get 6 additional sleeves made that will go 4.000" Id .
That would be 3842.6 cc / 239.49 ci .. ;)
I can't do no worse than them .. how many Opti-Pop's did they split the cyl register on shoving the sleeves in all at once ... cold :nonod:

https://i.imgur.com/4zu5EJ6l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dOwYaiIl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dQkuDZIl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WXMAK25l.jpg

Or how many 3.2 cranks spit the balance puck out .. :eek:

https://i.imgur.com/oqolVRkl.jpg

Don't think that new V-8 is immune either . Let em get a couple years old hangin out on the back of cats ... tick-tock tick-tock

[PRE-Z06]

I was doubtful before I owned one too. The thing is you just can’t possibly imagine the difference until you own/ set one up right. I had one on my 20’1” Bullet first, and now on my 21’10” Bullet. Everyone wants to credit the Cnc, but the facts are I broke 100 with a $600 stock bravo l. That’s a feat I never could do with my xs. On a Bullet that’s like having the best of both worlds. Holeshot and Top end. I’ve had a 1.75 on my xs as well, and I couldn’t dream of turning the props the R will. One at a time the world will learn
You should comment in this thread, I’ve been banned otherwise I would.
http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=984661

[PRE-Z06]

Why would you need an engine builder, when you can buy GM crate motors.
Why would you need a body + chassis man when you can find another C-6 on Craigslist.
For that matter, why would you need a shop with all those expenses, when you can get fast and reliable right from a GM outlet like Scoggen's. Are you saying you can do better than the general .. ??? ;)

When one of Mercury Racing's employees was at my shop and saw the base of a 3.0L block I was preparing. He asked : What is this , I said , you know what it is , a simple and effective fix .. so all 10 powerhead studs can be pulled down to 47 ft/lbs instead of leaving stud #9 and #10 back at the second pull of 29 ft/lbs.
His eyes said : Why didn't I think of that , but his mouth said , we will be phasing two strokes out in the next couple of years .. so it really doesn't matter at this point.
I took it as quite a compliment, and I thanked him for the information and said something to the effect of Do you think the dozen or so cores I have , will last me , or should I hoard up a few more .. :smiletest:

BTW .. I've got to order another two dozen of my custom 3.6L sleeves tomorrow. You got me thinking about the reliability end of it. I'm gonna sleep on it, but I think if he's got the blanks, I'm gonna get 6 additional sleeves made that will go 4.000" Id .
That would be 3842.6 cc / 239.49 ci .. ;)
I can't do no worse than them .. how many Opti-Pop's did they split the cyl register on shoving the sleeves in all at once ... cold :nonod:

https://i.imgur.com/4zu5EJ6l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dOwYaiIl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dQkuDZIl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WXMAK25l.jpg

Or how many 3.2 cranks spit the balance puck out .. :eek:

https://i.imgur.com/oqolVRkl.jpg

Don't think that new V-8 is immune either . Let em get a couple years old hangin out on the back of cats ... tick-tock tick-tock
I’ve never owned a 2-stroke, so not questioning your knowledge on them. I am a fan of how much lighter they are, reason I chose a V8 Vega for my first hot rod was because of weight.

Found some info on the Grump’s old race engines in the thread below if anyone else is interested.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30851&start=45

[powerabout]

Why would you need an engine builder, when you can buy GM crate motors.
Why would you need a body + chassis man when you can find another C-6 on Craigslist.
For that matter, why would you need a shop with all those expenses, when you can get fast and reliable right from a GM outlet like Scoggen's. Are you saying you can do better than the general .. ??? ;)

When one of Mercury Racing's employees was at my shop and saw the base of a 3.0L block I was preparing. He asked : What is this , I said , you know what it is , a simple and effective fix .. so all 10 powerhead studs can be pulled down to 47 ft/lbs instead of leaving stud #9 and #10 back at the second pull of 29 ft/lbs.
His eyes said : Why didn't I think of that , but his mouth said , we will be phasing two strokes out in the next couple of years .. so it really doesn't matter at this point.
I took it as quite a compliment, and I thanked him for the information and said something to the effect of Do you think the dozen or so cores I have , will last me , or should I hoard up a few more .. :smiletest:

BTW .. I've got to order another two dozen of my custom 3.6L sleeves tomorrow. You got me thinking about the reliability end of it. I'm gonna sleep on it, but I think if he's got the blanks, I'm gonna get 6 additional sleeves made that will go 4.000" Id .
That would be 3842.6 cc / 239.49 ci .. ;)
I can't do no worse than them .. how many Opti-Pop's did they split the cyl register on shoving the sleeves in all at once ... cold :nonod:

https://i.imgur.com/4zu5EJ6l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dOwYaiIl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dQkuDZIl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WXMAK25l.jpg

Or how many 3.2 cranks spit the balance puck out .. :eek:

https://i.imgur.com/oqolVRkl.jpg

Don't think that new V-8 is immune either . Let em get a couple years old hangin out on the back of cats ... tick-tock tick-tock

How much extra power before the exhaust starts to get too restrictive?

[Chaz]

You should comment in this thread, I’ve been banned otherwise I would.
http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=984661

Just something about having to be "all stock" on a "Hi-performance" board that earn's them the dumb-azz award right off the bat .. ;)

When "weed-whacker" insisted on a serial #'s at the time I had "Ballz" and "Spartacus" together, which were both sausages / floor sweepin's .. I said :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws-_syszg84

Power Ol buddy ... you know darn well that when Montey seen one of them OMC lookin blocks on my table he was gonna cut the back of it off :D.. gotta be ten years ago :eek:

https://i.imgur.com/lSZrtuul.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Mvou6Fbl.jpg

I look at this block, and think of how much they have changed since then .. LOL

​https://i.imgur.com/CVkveTWl.jpg

[powerabout]

Just something about having to be "all stock" on a "Hi-performance" board that earn's them the dumb-azz award right off the bat .. ;)

When "weed-whacker" insisted on a serial #'s at the time I had "Ballz" and "Spartacus" together, which were both sausages / floor sweepin's .. I said :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws-_syszg84

Power Ol buddy ... you know darn well that when Montey seen one of them OMC lookin blocks on my table he was gonna cut the back of it off :D.. gotta be ten years ago :eek:

https://i.imgur.com/lSZrtuul.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Mvou6Fbl.jpg

I look at this block, and think of how much they have changed since then .. LOL

​https://i.imgur.com/CVkveTWl.jpg

it needs a bubble back like an OMC

[Chaz]

i needs a bubble back like an OMC

Don't tempt me .. :D

We've talked about closing off the bottom and making the exit between two and three on the backside. A few things would be accomplished. It would be different. Club pulse would be so happy. And a single chamber, snow/watercraft style could be used on each bank ... ;) :nonod:

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/182768122179_/Suzuki-gt550-piper-3-into-1-expansion-chamber.jpg

[powerabout]

how about re design/port so the exhaust comes out on the outside and the old exhaust plenum is filled of huge ports?

[AZMIDLYF]

Chaz could one-off anything your/his imagination can think of, but the money has to come from somewhere and then who is getting in line to buy them?

On another note Chaz, the buy in with these 300Rs is prohibitive yes, but the upside as far as the endless aftermarket possibilities seems positive. In my mind it will be the LS of outboards. I'm still envisioning an outboard with a nice cam lope. :D

[Chaz]

how about re design/port so the exhaust comes out on the outside and the old exhaust plenum is filled of huge ports?

Only thing that comes close to sounding as terrible as a rotary @ 20,000 is a Mis~matched "over ported" two stroke wallowing thru the ports struggling desperately to come up on the pipe. You know the sound, open the throttle and the poor *&^%^ %^$ $%#$&*9 #^^%$ looses RPM .. WwwhhaaaWwwhhaaaaaWhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa .. No thank you .. :p



AZMIDLYF

Chaz could one-off anything your/his imagination can think of, but the money has to come from somewhere and then who is getting in line to buy them?

On another note Chaz, the buy in with these 300Rs is prohibitive yes, but the upside as far as the endless aftermarket possibilities seems positive. In my mind it will be the LS of outboards. I'm still envisioning an outboard with a nice cam lope. :D


It's funny you say it that way. One of my mentors long ago had cards that said "If you can dream it, we can make it" .. and man did we build some wierd **** LOL

My banker, (I built two dragster chassis and one door slammer for him ) told me a long time ago to always owe the bank money. Pay them on time, and if I ever needed to borrow real money it would be there for me. I guess he was right , when my son was little he would get mail , you have been pre aproved for a $ 50,000 dollar credit card. LOL
I still follow his advise , take a small home improvement loan and pay them back with their own money. I thank god that I havent needed them , or at my age saw the necessity to borrow money to repower a boat that chances are I'd die before I'd pay them off. I wouldn't do that to my family. I would however leave my kid my boat and a half a dozen good runnin powerheads .. ;)

I was speakin with a fella just the other night. Seems he got his hands one one of these 300R motors and wants to see what's inside .. :)
I've been thru a bunch of cell phones. Every time, the kid behind the counter ( that looks like he fell face first into a tackel box ) puts my SIM card in ... he looses half my phone numbers ... Good thing I have all my connections to the 4 stroke performance world .. on Rolodex cards .. Rumpty.. rump :D

[AZMIDLYF]

Look forward to the dreams you can make happen Sir. :cheers:

[Greg G]

...................

[powerabout]

300hp have been around since the mid 80's what year is it now?
Ok we have 300hp same weight as 35 years ago, cutting edge lol

[Chaz]

300hp have been around since the mid 80's what year is it now?
Ok we have 300hp same weight as 35 years ago, cutting edge lol

Power,

Ya wasn't sposta notice that . B-sides, it's the same 300 HP , but different ... ;) :D

[powerabout]

Power,

Ya wasn't sposta notice that . B-sides, it's the same 300 HP , but different ... ;) :D

Lol same same but different as we say here in Asia

[PRE-Z06]

Hopefully flow bench numbers and specs from cam doctor will be shared once someone disassembles one, anyone know SCR of these new V8s? Imagine it’s fairly low being it’s port injected and tuned for 87 octane.

[Chaz]

Only thing Merc shows is bore and stroke .. something close my program showed was a 4 valve bent 6 Beemer that I had to bump the numbers around a little to get it to peak a little over 300 @ 6400 ish.

It was easy to get it to make 250 or 500 .. LOL

I still think I have too much intake valve diameter and duration .. but, I think the rest is close :smiletest: :eek: :nonod: ;) :icon_bs: :iagree: :o :D

https://i.imgur.com/hDH1XCjl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fqsc8OZl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AnBq31nl.jpg

[Chaz]

LMAO ... C5 - ZR-1 .. instead of hitting the like button, you should have said :

Hey dummie , it's a bent 8 .. not a 6 ... :eek:

Reconfiguring ... ;)

[Chaz]

Well everything else staying the same, just dividing into two more holes was worth 80 HP ... :)

https://i.imgur.com/oONbIhTl.jpg

[PRE-Z06]

Well everything else staying the same, just dividing into two more holes was worth 80 HP ... :)

https://i.imgur.com/oONbIhTl.jpg
I honestly couldn’t see the pictures on my phone this morning, didn’t have time to get on the computer as was headed to race;)

[PRE-Z06]

I was applauding your efforts at plugging in guesses to the dyno simulator, but it’s still speculation as I can’t even find compression ratios on the new V8s. Why the guess of a reverse split cam? I doubt the overlap is that great as it doesn’t sound that aggressive in my humble opinion and would think it needs help on the exhaust side as assume outboard exhaust are more restrictive.

[Chaz]

Your right , it's backwards ... :rolleyes: it was late , I was tired , the sun was in my eyes .. :D

I meant for it to be a church steeple intake. high lift short duration to build cyl pressure.
Hang the exhaust open, it don't hurt nothin and it avoids pumping losses. On the T/D stuff blown or 700+ inch nitrous we left the ex open 300+ degrees .
And yes, no doubt, a poor outboard has to blow that **** out into some pretty thick air (water) and needs all the help it can get. I think I had it that way a couple times , even a few times LSA at 106 and as wide as 116 installed @ 110 . Garbage in , garbage out some of it .. but most all cases that peak between 6 and 6400 seem to make 450 ft/lbs @ 3000 LOL

I've put the compression @ 8 and 9, I would imagine thats where thay would put it not knowing if John Q. Customer is going to put the motor on a heavy azz hull , a big prop and lug the pizz out of it the whole time it's under wty ..

[PRE-Z06]

Your right , it's backwards ... :rolleyes: it was late , I was tired , the sun was in my eyes .. :D

I meant for it to be a church steeple intake. high lift short duration to build cyl pressure.
Hang the exhaust open, it don't hurt nothin and it avoids pumping losses. On the T/D stuff blown or 700+ inch nitrous we left the ex open 300+ degrees .
And yes, no doubt, a poor outboard has to blow that **** out into some pretty thick air (water) and needs all the help it can get. I think I had it that way a couple times , even a few times LSA at 106 and as wide as 116 installed @ 110 . Garbage in , garbage out some of it .. but most all cases that peak between 6 and 6400 seem to make 450 ft/lbs @ 3000 LOL

I've put the compression @ 8 and 9, I would imagine thats where thay would put it not knowing if John Q. Customer is going to put the motor on a heavy azz hull , a big prop and lug the pizz out of it the whole time it's under wty ..
Agreed compression is probably similar to Verado’s 8.35:1 even though that engine is supercharged it’s supposed to run on premium fuel and they just pull timing if someone puts in the cheap stuff. Low compression, a late IVC and a relatively speaking poor exhaust is going kill torque. The 4-stroke makes more “bottom end torque” (40% more at 2k rpm) mainly because of the increased displacement over the 2-stroke, don’t think they’re peak numbers are that much different. Though that’ll help a heavier hull and the production boats just like cars don’t seem to be getting lighter these days unfortunately.

The Grump mentioned in the article below he was hanging the exhaust valve open on his bigger NA small blocks for more than 300* @ .050” though he was turning 9k+ rpm;)
https://www.scribd.com/doc/110755831/The-Chevrolet-Racing-Engine-Bill-Jenkins

[Chaz]

Yea , a 355 was big to him .. LOL

But if we look at combustion and the exhaust event on a 2 stroke or 4 . We see they both start out with 20 to 30* degrees of advance to peak the cyl pressure around 14* degree ATDC . And both will see the party being over by 90* degrees ATDC.
A 2 stroke will open @ 90* and stay open thru the entire transfer event and of course close 90* BTDC.
A 4 stroke with something like a Comp 280 hyd / flat tappet ( mild ) is 230* @ .050 but follows the same pattern .. Opens @ aprox 90* ATDC , it's fairly empty by the time it gets to BDC ( pressure wise ) and as stated, no need in closing it for the ride up 180* + 90 = 270 + 10* over the top to help pull some of the fresh charge and you have 280* degrees on a really mild cam, seat to seat. It's a lot easier to measure them @ .050 lift so thats what the industry does. But in the real world the valves are off the seats and leakin ten each way from bein sealed up. Fer me datz dayum near 300* degree's .. :)


Chaz = thinkin last week ZR-1 ain't even no who the cigar man even wuz .. :p :thumbsup:







*yes I know, sometimes more, sometimes less .. :smiletest:

[PRE-Z06]

Yea , a 355 was big to him .. LOL

But if we look at combustion and the exhaust event on a 2 stroke or 4 . We see they both start out with 20 to 30* degrees of advance to peak the cyl pressure around 14* degree ATDC . And both will see the party being over by 90* degrees ATDC.
A 2 stroke will open @ 90* and stay open thru the entire transfer event and of course close 90* BTDC.
A 4 stroke with something like a Comp 280 hyd / flat tappet ( mild ) is 230* @ .050 but follows the same pattern .. Opens @ aprox 90* ATDC , it's fairly empty by the time it gets to BDC ( pressure wise ) and as stated, no need in closing it for the ride up 180* + 90 = 270 + 10* over the top to help pull some of the fresh charge and you have 280* degrees on a really mild cam, seat to seat. It's a lot easier to measure them @ .050 lift so thats what the industry does. But in the real world the valves are off the seats and leakin ten each way from bein sealed up. Fer me datz dayum near 300* degree's .. :)


Chaz = thinkin last week ZR-1 ain't even no who the cigar man even wuz .. :p :thumbsup:







*yes I know, sometimes more, sometimes less .. :smiletest:

Ramp rates vary so much off the seat that .050” is a better comparison than advertised numbers as heads aren’t even allowing much airflow at such low lift. Marine lobes are soft/slow for extended higher rpm use obviously so advertised (.006”) duration is higher than normal cams. A 2019 production engine has to succumb to emissions which makes my guess that intake duration is low and lsa is wide to make it as efficient as possible by exhausting as little unburnt fuel from no overlap. For reference the last NA 4.6L DOHC Ford from 15 years ago that had to comply with the EPA (so similar size, power and rpm as mentioned early)...
Intake: 184 deg @ .050/.394 lift
Exhaust: 196 deg @ .050/.397 lift
114 lobe center
If we assume we can get 1hp for every degree of intake duration added, then there will be some nice gains to be had with hanging the valves open longer to ingest more air assuming the intake and exhaust can keep up. Hopefully this becomes the LS of outboards one day and maybe the Merc will make be more like this engine...
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/volvos-unique-60-degree-v8-wows-field-in-v8-supercar-opener/
The Z06 came out in 1963 as I’m sure you know, I chose the screename because I had ‘99 FRC that everyone thought was a Z06 because the body looked the same. My late uncle had a 327 4-speed Camaro in the ‘70s and taught me a few things when I had the Vega, he for sure knew who the Grump was. Here’s a cam from a little 12:1 358ci engine when I worked at Team Texas that had over 300* advertised duration...
440818

LH-(YF3E 6A273 BB)
Exhaust: 196 deg @ .050/.397 lift
114 lobe center

[powerabout]

so you get you carby OMC 200, take it apart and grind on it and you have 300 with the cost of a gasket set
hows the 4 stroke cost compare with that to add 50% or 100HP?

[JPEROG]

so you get you carby OMC 200, take it apart and grind on it and you have 300 with the cost of a gasket set
hows the 4 stroke cost compare with that to add 50% or 100HP?

Compression, cams, and tune are to come and you will be able to add 50% more h.p.-Unfortunately for those that want to keep living in the 80s, you will miss the smoke, the stalling, the shaking, the narrow power band, the lack of torque and the high fuel usage. These motors are going to make a common 400+ h.p., turn 7000, and have a 1.60 gear which will turn anything that you can currently bolt a 3L motor on the back of "a candidate for big time performance". The only downside to this new technology is cost but the good thing is that dollars are the one thing that we all can make more of.

Joe

[powerabout]

I am amazed Merc lets punters hack the PCU and BRP worked hard to prevent it.
I wonder how the EPA views that?

narrow powerband of a 2 stroke versus a 4 cam 4stroke?? Those 2 companies that tried to get a 4s to replace the the F1 v6 needed your help.
It might be different once they use VVT and a blower

I am starting to wonder whats the point of a huge horsepower performance outboard, 160mph in an Allison or will it be 100mph in a Hatteras?
Look what happened to the Stern Drive business, pushed it to almost 2000hp and then it died, was there a market or use for the product?
I have noticed when people are selling modern engines and they post the ECU dump of the % rpm, 99 times out of a hundred they spend 90% at idle and less than 1% at WOT, just saying....

[JPEROG]

It will be aftermarket ecus that come into play no different then the automotive world. And yes, they have a much broader torque band then a two stroke. I ran a prop on the 300r that my 300X wouldn't allow to get on plane. There is a big difference. 135-140 mph small tunnels will be out there soon "not that this is a good thing" but it will be available.

It was just documented on video (25 liberator with a "center pod" and 400Rs with 1.75s running 125 with crazy acceleration getting there) now take 400 pounds out of the picture and add a 1.60 back into the picture=crazy speeds and accel. These motors are changing performance boating and will be worked and modified for the next decade to come.

Joe

[PRE-Z06]

so you get you carby OMC 200, take it apart and grind on it and you have 300 with the cost of a gasket set
hows the 4 stroke cost compare with that to add 50% or 100HP?
The 200hp Pro XS V8 only needs the larger throttle body and tune to be turned into the 300hp Pro XS V8. Technically I think that’s only a 70hp gain based on the carb report numbers. I’ve been wanting to know if Simon is actually tuning the engines or just flashing them with the higher hp factory tunes. A 200 sho will pick up ~120hp from just a software change from Wayne.

[New Canoe]

21’ Cougar MTR ...300X ...372 HP / 365 torque

21’ Liberator w/ 300R

Cougar best : 122 mph w/ 32 Hoss 3 blade

Liberator best: 107 mph w/ merc 34 Cleaver.

From a dig, Cougar is gone ...
Rolling start, a fun race...
Top end : All Cougar.

[Flightplan]

21’ Cougar MTR ...300X ...372 HP / 365 torque

21’ Liberator w/ 300R

Cougar best : 122 mph w/ 32 Hoss 3 blade

Liberator best: 107 mph w/ merc 34 Cleaver.

From a dig, Cougar is gone ...
Rolling start, a fun race...
Top end : All Cougar.

How are you getting 372 HP out of the X?

[AZMIDLYF]

How are you getting 372 HP out of the X?

The three letters before the 300X in the title. :D

[PRE-Z06]

How are you getting 372 HP out of the X?
https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?308779-DBR-300x

[New Canoe]

The three letters before the 300X in the title. :D

Thank you ...!

I think Randy Corson got 112 mph with the 21’ Liberator 300R.

[Chaz]

Ramp rates vary so much off the seat that .050” is a better comparison than advertised numbers as heads aren’t even allowing much airflow at such low lift. Marine lobes are soft/slow for extended higher rpm use obviously so advertised (.006”) duration is higher than normal cams. A 2019 production engine has to succumb to emissions which makes my guess that intake duration is low and lsa is wide to make it as efficient as possible by exhausting as little unburnt fuel from no overlap. For reference the last NA 4.6L DOHC Ford from 15 years ago that had to comply with the EPA (so similar size, power and rpm as mentioned early)...
Intake: 184 deg @ .050/.394 lift
Exhaust: 196 deg @ .050/.397 lift
114 lobe center

My point was that the valves are off the seat. If it didn't matter, then I wasted a lot of my life on an old Superflow SF-110, Rottler, Sunnen and Serdi, valve face, seat and guide machines. And yes I'm old enough to where there was only Souex stones to use.
Today they punch the profile in a Newen seat profiler that will cut as many angles as you want and sweep the chamber all in one shot.
Anyway, you hear one rolling by you real docile , except for the "birds chirping" in the collector. You'll know he's "sweated" the numbers no one worries about .. ;)


If we assume we can get 1hp for every degree of intake duration added, then there will be some nice gains to be had with hanging the valves open longer to ingest more air assuming the intake and exhaust can keep up. Hopefully this becomes the LS of outboards one day and maybe the Merc will make be more like this engine...

https://www.enginelabs.com/news/volvos-unique-60-degree-v8-wows-field-in-v8-supercar-opener/
The Z06 came out in 1963 as I’m sure you know, I chose the screename because I had ‘99 FRC that everyone thought was a Z06 because the body looked the same. My late uncle had a 327 4-speed Camaro in the ‘70s and taught me a few things when I had the Vega, he for sure knew who the Grump was. Here’s a cam from a little 12:1 358ci engine when I worked at Team Texas that had over 300* advertised duration...

440818

LH-(YF3E 6A273 BB)
Exhaust: 196 deg @ .050/.397 lift
114 lobe center

GM has used and reused badging so much, I just chose the latest .. hard to keep up but a C-5 with a "big hip kit" Is that what your saying .. ?

Bruce Crower actually ground a cam with some lift .. ? I always liked his rods, but his cam's were typical west coast long D and short L . Guys like Jessel brothers in New Jersey bushed the lifter bores and ran large diam lifters to have wheels that would get over monster lobes.

Well I put "mufflers on it .. LOL and your cam spec's" ... Tied it in a knot :o

Will it be the LS of outboards .. Yes and No !

Guys go to the junkyard, buy a $500 LS put it in a work truck .. it runs for another 100,000 miles.
Guys like the "Sloppy mechanics" buy the same $500 dollar motor, move the oil pick-up, put a set of valve springs on it, a 76 mm e-bay turbo, put it in a four door fairmont, run it on corn, and go 9.70's @ 135 .

I see the front page, merc is spending money on production of these motors.
But as it stands, as of now (for the most part) you pay your money and wait.
Mercury Racing can't sell warrantless motors in large volumes to the general public so I can't see the general public buying these motors brand new and doing anything to them that would void their warranty. So it will be a lonnngggggg time untill you see blowers, turbos and nitrous kits being sold in any volume for these motors.
And when you hurt one .. as it's been said ... MERCOSIL :nonod:

If anything, the 3.0L is the LS , like em or not, every marina has a few broken ones here or there. I bought three of them ( powerheads) this year without really looking. One I traded some work for the other two I didn't pay over $ 250 dollars each for.
It's fairly cheap for me to put a new sleeve in a bad hole and a piston from another one, bore that back to standard and hone the other five and send it again . Or shoot them all .015 and put a set of soldiers in it .

A young man came up and bought a 4 shutter intake from me a couple weeks ago to put on his "EARLY MODEL 225 HP" He had a tuner, flowed the injectors, put reeds in it. Thats it !
Put it on a Mirage 4 seat taxi cab .. first time in the boat ever went 103 mph.
Brent put one of his Bravo wheels on , lifted the motor to XXXX above the pad .. and went 111 mph .
Not bad for 115 PSI notch sleeve 225 motor ... Now what to do with the other
$ 26,000.00 thousand ******* dollars he saved ... :rolleyes:

https://i.imgur.com/IicWDLnl.jpg

[PRE-Z06]

441056


My point was that the valves are off the seat. If it didn't matter, then I wasted a lot of my life on an old Superflow SF-110, Rottler, Sunnen and Serdi, valve face, seat and guide machines. And yes I'm old enough to where there was only Souex stones to use.
Today they punch the profile in a Newen seat profiler that will cut as many angles as you want and sweep the chamber all in one shot.
Anyway, you hear one rolling by you real docile , except for the "birds chirping" in the collector. You'll know he's "sweated" the numbers no one worries about .. ;)



GM has used and reused badging so much, I just chose the latest .. hard to keep up but a C-5 with a "big hip kit" Is that what your saying .. ?

Bruce Crower actually ground a cam with some lift .. ? I always liked his rods, but his cam's were typical west coast long D and short L . Guys like Jessel brothers in New Jersey bushed the lifter bores and ran large diam lifters to have wheels that would get over monster lobes.

Well I put "mufflers on it .. LOL and your cam spec's" ... Tied it in a knot :o

Will it be the LS of outboards .. Yes and No !

Guys go to the junkyard, buy a $500 LS put it in a work truck .. it runs for another 100,000 miles.
Guys like the "Sloppy mechanics" buy the same $500 dollar motor, move the oil pick-up, put a set of valve springs on it, a 76 mm e-bay turbo, put it in a four door fairmont, run it on corn, and go 9.70's @ 135 .

I see the front page, merc is spending money on production of these motors.
But as it stands, as of now (for the most part) you pay your money and wait.
Mercury Racing can't sell warrantless motors in large volumes to the general public so I can't see the general public buying these motors brand new and doing anything to them that would void their warranty. So it will be a lonnngggggg time untill you see blowers, turbos and nitrous kits being sold in any volume for these motors.
And when you hurt one .. as it's been said ... MERCOSIL :nonod:

If anything, the 3.0L is the LS , like em or not, every marina has a few broken ones here or there. I bought three of them ( powerheads) this year without really looking. One I traded some work for the other two I didn't pay over $ 250 dollars each for.
It's fairly cheap for me to put a new sleeve in a bad hole and a piston from another one, bore that back to standard and hone the other five and send it again . Or shoot them all .015 and put a set of soldiers in it .

A young man came up and bought a 4 shutter intake from me a couple weeks ago to put on his "EARLY MODEL 225 HP" He had a tuner, flowed the injectors, put reeds in it. Thats it !
Put it on a Mirage 4 seat taxi cab .. first time in the boat ever went 103 mph.
Brent put one of his Bravo wheels on , lifted the motor to XXXX above the pad .. and went 111 mph .
Not bad for 115 PSI notch sleeve 225 motor ... Now what to do with the other
$ 26,000.00 thousand ******* dollars he saved ... :rolleyes:

https://i.imgur.com/IicWDLnl.jpg
I like to hear the birds chirp lol

Not to get off topic, but for your reading pleasure next time your dropping the kids off at the pool...
http://www.superchevy.com/features/1603-1999-2000-fixed-roof-coupe-the-rarest-of-all-c5-corvette-models
I sold that car to a guy who crewed on a top alcohol funny car and ran this super street Camaro back in the day. Bought another look alike Z06 aka Grandsport as I kind of like being the underdog and keeping it stock as I don’t have deep pockets, but was within .3 last weekend of last year’s 3rd place national champion in his Z06 on a 37 second course. Tuner’s drag week fox body was a simple single turbo junkyard LS that runs 7s on pump+meth.

I hear ya the 4-strokes aren’t as cheap and it’ll probably be awhile before someone tears into one, but figure all it’d take for a more common 200hp Pro XS V8 to make more power than DBR 300X or similar to 400R (though it’s even heavier) which is much less than 300R to start with is the shorter runners, bigger throttle body and some aftermarket cams. Mill the heads, swap the stiffer mounts on and a sporty for it to fly. The only downside I see besides cost is the weight?

What flow numbers are you using for the heads?

[powerabout]

441056
I like to hear the birds chirp lol

Not to get off topic, but for your reading pleasure next time your dropping the kids off at the pool...
http://www.superchevy.com/features/1603-1999-2000-fixed-roof-coupe-the-rarest-of-all-c5-corvette-models
I sold that car to a guy who crewed on a top alcohol funny car and ran this super street Camaro back in the day. Bought another look alike Z06 aka Grandsport as I kind of like being the underdog and keeping it stock as I don’t have deep pockets, but was within .3 last weekend of last year’s 3rd place national champion on a 37 second course. Tuner’s drag week fox body was a simple single turbo junkyard LS that runs 7s on pump+meth. I hear ya the 4-strokes aren’t as cheap and it’ll probably be awhile before someone tears into one, but figure all it’d take for a more common 200hp Pro XS V8 to make similar power to DBR 300X which is much less than 300R to start with is the shorter runners, bigger throttle body and some aftermarket cams. Mill the heads, swap the stiffer mounts on and a sporty for it to fly. The only downside I see besides cost is the weight?

Here is what you are after but the cheaper version

[river rocket]

21’ Cougar MTR ...300X ...372 HP / 365 torque

21’ Liberator w/ 300R

Cougar best : 122 mph w/ 32 Hoss 3 blade

Liberator best: 107 mph w/ merc 34 Cleaver.

From a dig, Cougar is gone ...
Rolling start, a fun race...
Top end : All Cougar.

I have data logged the heck out of the 300R and 300XS on the same boat with the exact same setup running the exact same props. I have also tested the new 5 blades on a similar boat and found them to be on par with the ones I'm running in terms of acceleration. Top end they pull away a little, but that is 95 plus.

I agree, the 300R 1.75 struggles to keep up with a 300XS DBR 1.62 with light flywheel so I could see it struggling to keep up with an X. I also did testing with the same 300XS on my boat with 1.75's and it beat the 300R as well.

Out of the hole, the 300XS DBR takes the 300R. If you ignore the hole shot (I need to change my setup to account for the heavier motor) and look at it from 15 to top speed it gets closer, but the 300XS DBR still takes it. The 300XS DBR feels very much like my X in performance.

I love my R and would not go back, but the 300XS DBR was a hell of a motor. I could totally see an X giving the R an absolute run for its money. Especially if its got a little bit of work done on it.

The stock 300XS loses hands down to the 300R on my boat. 5-85, 5-90, 5-95 times and 1000', 1500', 2000', 3000', 4000', 5000' time testing shows it getting smoked. That's with and without prop pitch correction.

Fastbass Marine TV will have all the results up when I get a chance to put a video together and quit burning gas in the R. It puts a smile on my face every time I turn the key. They sound incredible. Check here for other tests https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-gVmKyhP48mllwiJncpZSg?view_as=subscriber

441086
441087

[Chaz]

How long does it take to get to 120 ?

Axein .. for a friend .. :thumbsup:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM8KfLgFmtU

[Chaz]

Same air flow numbers that the program picked out back on post # 76 or 79 . ( mildly ported head )

So I wasn't that far off calling you .. ZR-1 ;) Tell me true .. did ya cut the roof off when ya put a full SCCA cage in the car ... :eek:

I bought a 82 from a bodyshop as the rollback guy was loading it up to take to the crushers. My wife shook her head when I told her that $1500 beater from "crackistan" was our new date night car. My 14 year old kid and I built a hyd-roller, 10:1 406, 10" converter, 700R4 , 3.73:1 , drag radial , hooptie , that I threw him the keys to when he turned 16. He's been driving Jr. dragsters since 11 , and my motorhome and 28' box @ 15 so if anyone was going to jail it prob would have been me .. :)

BTW .. how come your 69 RS/SS didn't have Z-28 badges on it .. ??? :D

OK Power .. actually, this post was for you .. :thumbsup:

Monty built this guy one of his well proven many times over 380 HP V-8's ..

It's getting a 16" can. Single ram trim . 1.62 Sportmaster .. :cheers:

Old belt sander stand drilled and bushings made for 2.5, 3.0, OMC 6 + 8

https://i.imgur.com/uqcH2eJl.jpg

All his tiller, bushings, pin, yoke parts are all machined up + in the box. My 3.0 base plate misses one hole by .080" LOL copycats ... :)

https://i.imgur.com/Kb4mZ3Ol.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/uqcH2eJl.jpg

[PRE-Z06]

Same air flow numbers that the program picked out back on post # 76 or 79 . ( mildly ported head )

So I wasn't that far off calling you .. ZR-1 ;) Tell me true .. did ya cut the roof off when ya put a full SCCA cage in the car ... :eek:

I bought a 82 from a bodyshop as the rollback guy was loading it up to take to the crushers. My wife shook her head when I told her that $1500 beater from "crackistan" was our new date night car. My 14 year old kid and I built a hyd-roller, 10:1 406, 10" converter, 700R4 , 3.73:1 , drag radial , hooptie , that I threw him the keys to when he turned 16. He's been driving Jr. dragsters since 11 , and my motorhome and 28' box @ 15 so if anyone was going to jail it prob would have been me .. :)

BTW .. how come your 69 RS/SS didn't have Z-28 badges on it .. ??? :D

OK Power .. actually, this post was for you .. :thumbsup:

Monty built this guy one of his well proven many times over 380 HP V-8's ..

It's getting a 16" can. Single ram trim . 1.62 Sportmaster .. :cheers:

Old belt sander stand drilled and bushings made for 2.5, 3.0, OMC 6 + 8

https://i.imgur.com/uqcH2eJl.jpg

All his tiller, bushings, pin, yoke parts are all machined up + in the box. My 3.0 base plate misses one hole by .080" LOL copycats ... :)

https://i.imgur.com/Kb4mZ3Ol.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/uqcH2eJl.jpg
No cage as just instructing, running time trials and solo events with SCCA as don’t have the budget for wheel to wheel. Took the GS to the drag strip just for fun when I first got it and ran the fastest pass that’s been done on the runflats in a stock one, then slapped on the drag radials and went faster than any stock manual C5Z06, C6 or C7 non Z06/ZR1 on different rear tires. I’ve always been under the impression straight line is for fast cars and curves are for fast drivers though.

Back to guessing the 300R engine specs, why did you choose data @50” of water? Thought the performance industry standard was 28”? Try using the below numbers @28” if you don’t mind which are roughly what a 4V mod motor head flows and see if that doesn’t bring the hp up as I think the numbers you chose are a little low and why down ~50hp best I can tell from your picture.
I/E: 1.45/1.18 valves, 220/[email protected]”, 210/145 @.350, 195/[email protected], 175/[email protected], 150/[email protected], 120/[email protected], 90/[email protected], 40/[email protected]

[davemvegas]

I agree, the 300R 1.75 struggles to keep up with a 300XS DBR 1.62 with light flywheel so I could see it struggling to keep up with an X. I also did testing with the same 300XS on my boat with 1.75's and it beat the 300R as well.



When you say 300XS DBR...Are running a built DBR powerhead or a stock powerhead with the Level 1.3 kit? Reason i am asking is because i bought the DBR kit for my pair of motors on 22 FT Eliminator Daytona. I neither felt any noticeable power or seen any on my GPS. The kits did solve 2 issues i was having so i did get something positive for the cost. My boat would go into Guardian mode occasionally on long WOT looking for top speed. At 105 to 109 mph i would not hear the warning beep. But the pucker in my ass would work well when either motor would drop to 2000 RPM Guardian mode after bumping the 6400 Rev Limiter a few beeps. Yes it was a nice bow stuff and turn the few times it happened. The DBR 7000 RPM raised limiters fixed the issue. Other issue was a give and take trade off. Over 90 water would suck up the rear of motors and wet powerheads. The DBR kits have the air intake plate that you mount on front of cowl and allows you to seal the rear air intakes. The downside is from just off idle to about 2500 RPM the compressor noise and reeds slapping is a noisey combination. Never topped my best of 109 before kits, Never really felt better taking off. Did seem to have a little more midrange pull from 50 to 100 but i really had no data to compare.

[powerabout]

So a Monty 380v8 omc cost gives you how much spare cash to buy fuel compared with a 300R?

[river rocket]

When you say 300XS DBR...Are running a built DBR powerhead or a stock powerhead with the Level 1.3 kit? Reason i am asking is because i bought the DBR kit for my pair of motors on 22 FT Eliminator Daytona. I neither felt any noticeable power or seen any on my GPS. The kits did solve 2 issues i was having so i did get something positive for the cost. My boat would go into Guardian mode occasionally on long WOT looking for top speed. At 105 to 109 mph i would not hear the warning beep. But the pucker in my ass would work well when either motor would drop to 2000 RPM Guardian mode after bumping the 6400 Rev Limiter a few beeps. Yes it was a nice bow stuff and turn the few times it happened. The DBR 7000 RPM raised limiters fixed the issue. Other issue was a give and take trade off. Over 90 water would suck up the rear of motors and wet powerheads. The DBR kits have the air intake plate that you mount on front of cowl and allows you to seal the rear air intakes. The downside is from just off idle to about 2500 RPM the compressor noise and reeds slapping is a noisey combination. Never topped my best of 109 before kits, Never really felt better taking off. Did seem to have a little more midrange pull from 50 to 100 but i really had no data to compare.

Stock powerhead with DBR ECU mods. I cut the front cowl instead of buying a new cowl. I don't have the version number, but it was programmed in October last year.

Here is the testing
5 different tests. My hole shot got worse after the flywheel, but the DBR pulled it right back in again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seBUTvtgusE
DBR ECU change before and after. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHNB1ZkSRzU&t=63s

On my boat it made a significant difference. My friend did his 250xs after seeing the results and it helped him as well.

I will post the data graphs later today when I get some time.

[engineermike]

So a Monty 380v8 omc cost gives you how much spare cash to buy fuel compared with a 300R?

Ah....if only things were that simple....

[powerabout]

Ah....if only things were that simple....
OK yes I would have to go with EFI as well just to make it more user friendly

[engineermike]

Sorry, it’s going to take a lot more than EFI to make them even remotely comparable.

Just the idea being argued that a 35 year old modified 2-stroke is better than a modern outboard is what is stifling growth of this website. It’s sad to watch, honestly.

[davemvegas]

On my boat it made a significant difference. My friend did his 250xs after seeing the results and it helped him as well.


I think the answer to your results vs my boat not gaining any performance. Is due to the guess of your hull weight being in the 800 lb area. My hull weight is more like 4,000 lb area. So it makes sense that a 8 to 12 hp increase could give you the performance gain. My boat really does not feel any different at a 1/4 tank (30 gals) as 1/2 tank (60 gals) so it probably would take 25 hp per motor to gain any noticeable speed.

[Chaz]

OK yes I would have to go with EFI as well just to make it more friendly

I think those might make just a little more ... :)


https://www.facebook.com/262937730581156/videos/386258988653281/

[river rocket]

I think the answer to your results vs my boat not gaining any performance. Is due to the guess of your hull weight being in the 800 lb area. My hull weight is more like 4,000 lb area. So it makes sense that a 8 to 12 hp increase could give you the performance gain. My boat really does not feel any different at a 1/4 tank (30 gals) as 1/2 tank (60 gals) so it probably would take 25 hp per motor to gain any noticeable speed.

The XB21 Allison is the fat kid in the family. The hull alone is 1300lbs. For testing I ran full fishing load and power poles. On the water the boat weights just under 2,800lbs. I agree, the setup is still probably better setup to leverage the added power. I studied the DBR stuff a lot before I bought. Results were plus and minus. Mine ended up very positive.

Here is a test with the 30 Promax. The boat weight and setup was identical for all tests. The only change was the motor.

Stock 300XS 1.62 in Red
DBR 300XS 1.62 in Blue
DBR 300XS 1.75 in Green
Stock 300R 1.75 in Orange

The line marks the spot the data in the table is reading down below the graph. The graph can be deceiving as it is speed vs time. distance vs time is the bottom graph. That is the true "race" if you will.

The 300R and 300XS DBR 1.75 were very close. While the R got out a little slower it pulled through the mid range and hit the limiter at 95 24' behind the 300XS DBR 1.75.
You can see how much the DBR helped on the 30 when you look at the Red vs Blue. 9mph faster in 26 seconds and over 600' out in front.

441204

[powerabout]

Sorry, it’s going to take a lot more than EFI to make them even remotely comparable.

Just the idea being argued that a 35 year old modified 2-stroke is better than a modern outboard is what is stifling growth of this website. It’s sad to watch, honestly.
I'm not saying its better, just a price/value comparison mostly tongue in cheek

[Chaz]

Just the idea being argued that a 35 year old modified 2-stroke is better than a modern outboard is what is stifling growth of this website. It’s sad to watch, honestly.

Ain't nobody arguing about nuttin .. and you of anybody should take it the least personal.
I said before I'm just a stupid welder , and I build what I can afford. Or should I say, what I'm willing to spend.
I don't feel bad about it though , I'm in good company. Lots of guys are even bringing back the early model twin computer three litre's. I have friends in the UK an Oz that actually prefer them.
Please tell us, do you have anything to offer this thread of basically the pro's and cons of two strokes and four strokes in various forms and how they become useful in an outboard application. Or is your education and degree only good for derogatory statements?
How bout something personal and exciting like ... How many more payments vs month's of wty you have left .. Ppffftttt

Now I'm pizzed and gonna start writtin in all caps ... :nonod: ;)

:D ON SALE ALL NEXT WEEK BILLET 300X REED ADAPTER PLATES :D

Go from this ...

https://i.imgur.com/PJAodeOl.jpg

To this ..

https://i.imgur.com/ZLcq1bKl.jpg

Put the injectors outside where they belong ...

https://i.imgur.com/9mKRpp4l.jpg
​

[powerabout]

does a 300x have sequential injection or batch fire?

[Chaz]

The early model .. had three injector drivers ( 1+2 ) ( 3+4 ) ( 5+6 ) are tied together.

Late models ... like the 300x with a starboard side mounted Motorola box, are sequential. 1 thru 6 .

[RSWORDS]

Ain't nobody arguing about nuttin .. and you of anybody should take it the least personal.
I said before I'm just a stupid welder , and I build what I can afford. Or should I say, what I'm willing to spend.
I don't feel bad about it though , I'm in good company. Lots of guys are even bringing back the early model twin computer three litre's. I have friends in the UK an Oz that actually prefer them.
Please tell us, do you have anything to offer this thread of basically the pro's and cons of two strokes and four strokes in various forms and how they become useful in an outboard application. Or is your education and degree only good for derogatory statements?
How bout something personal and exciting like ... How many more payments vs month's of wty you have left .. Ppffftttt

Now I'm pizzed and gonna start writtin in all caps ... :nonod: ;)

:D ON SALE ALL NEXT WEEK BILLET 300X REED ADAPTER PLATES :D

Go from this ...

https://i.imgur.com/PJAodeOl.jpg

To this ..

https://i.imgur.com/ZLcq1bKl.jpg

Put the injectors outside where they belong ...

https://i.imgur.com/9mKRpp4l.jpg
​


Damn you trying to get me to spend money..... :D

Speaking of I still haven't found time to pull apart those blocks and send you the heads and rods. Haven't forgotten though

[Chaz]

Robert , It's all good brother. Ifin I run out of local sources for cranks and "5 good rods" at a time, I know you'll sift thru your cores for me .. :thumbsup:

Chaz = thinkin, all ya need is an opti-pop breadbox (plenum) air valve, and some linkage and you'd be good to go on the adapter plate ... :D

[RSWORDS]

Robert , It's all good brother. Ifin I run out of local sources for cranks and "5 good rods" at a time, I know you'll sift thru your cores for me .. :thumbsup:

Chaz = thinkin, all ya need is an opti-pop breadbox (plenum) air valve, and some linkage and you'd be good to go on the adapter plate ... :D

Just so happen to have all that.....

[engineermike]

How bout something personal and exciting like ... How many more payments vs month's of wty you have left .. Ppffftttt

0 payments and about 19 months of warranty left on my 400R, thought I'm not sure why my personal finances are relevant to the discussion.

The fact is that the future of performance outboards is 4-stroke. Eventually, this forum will either accept that or die a long and slow death. Personally, I've almost given up on S&F for relevant/modern performance outboard technical discussion because the 4-strokes are constantly getting poo-poo'd by the old guard. I hate to admit it, but I am forced to frequent veradoclub, bbc, and oso, as they are at least as useful for me...though each have their own issues. I wonder how many potential forum members are out there like me. Based on the rate that the 300R and 400R are selling, I'd venture to guess that there are thousands of folks who are in my situation as well. This can either be a growth opportunity for the site...or nails in the coffin...

I personally want to see this site successful in the future and I would love to read about projects pushing the new Merc Racing outboards to their potential and even modifying them....imagine the traffic the site would get if that happened en masse! There are a handful of people trying it and I thank them because that's what will keep this site going for years to come.

[mjw930]

0 payments and about 19 months of warranty left on my 400R, thought I'm not sure why my personal finances are relevant to the discussion.

The fact is that the future of performance outboards is 4-stroke. Eventually, this forum will either accept that or die a long and slow death. Personally, I've almost given up on S&F for relevant/modern performance outboard technical discussion because the 4-strokes are constantly getting poo-poo'd by the old guard. I hate to admit it, but I am forced to frequent veradoclub, bbc, and oso, as they are at least as useful for me...though each have their own issues. I wonder how many potential forum members are out there like me. Based on the rate that the 300R and 400R are selling, I'd venture to guess that there are thousands of folks who are in my situation as well. This can either be a growth opportunity for the site...or nails in the coffin...

I personally want to see this site successful in the future and I would love to read about projects pushing the new Merc Racing outboards to their potential and even modifying them....imagine the traffic the site would get if that happened en masse! There are a handful of people trying it and I thank them because that's what will keep this site going for years to come.

+1

Personally I'm hoping the old guard lives on long enough for me to get top dollar for my 300XS when I repower with a 300R. Of course, at the rate Mercury is delivering them that won't happen until 2020........

[JPEROG]

Get your order in now Mark. I just ordered another set and was told Dec.

Joe

[aggiestckl]

I love how the discussions on here always turn into car motor bull**** or finances or political nonsense

[aggiestckl]

This ain’t a car site, liberals are the scum of the earth and if you can’t pay to play find a new hobby

[davemvegas]

This ain’t a car site, liberals are the scum of the earth and if you can’t pay to play find a new hobby

Damn Glenn. Did somebody piss in your Cheerio's this morning. You almost made me hang my head in shame and walk away. My Burger King asst managers pay does not stretch into the afford to play category. But i can fake it well with some used hand me down parts.

[PRE-Z06]

Didn’t a guy come over from Porsche to help develop the 400R? And I thought Mercury Racing used an automotive block for their SB4? It makes ~1.75hp/ci @8k rpm from it’s 11.7:1 DOHC V8 with pump gas, so using some ricer math the 4.6L could become a production 500R or there’s always the aftermarket. Has anyone heard of a ROS version of the V8 coming?

Most all of us are on this website are here because we’re performance enthusiasts in one regard or another, lost a buddy Friday who swerved to avoid hitting a car that pulled out in front of him while tuning 2k hp customer’s car for upcoming event to try and best it’s 186mph 1/4 and 237mph 1/2 mile speeds.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/traffic-accidents/2019/06/08/man-dies-crash-after-lost-control-lamborghini-police-say

[engineermike]

The problem with using hp/cid as a metric for boat motors is that with only 1 gear the engine has to have a very broad usable power range and WOT-for-hours-on-end reliability. The SB4 is only making ~65% of peak torque at 2500 rpm and I don't think designed for constant WOT use for 2000 hours. We all know that production cars are making 100+/- hp/liter NA, the SB4 as well. But without the advantage of supercharging, 4-stroke boat motors are making 50-70 hp/liter due to the criticality of low-end torque and reliability reasons. VVT and multiple forward gears can help the situation. Note that cars seem to be around 100 hp/liter now in high performance production applications, but street bikes (where low-end torque and longevity are ess critical than a sports car, even) are making double that. I'll be surprised if we see NA 4-stroke boat motors making more than 75 hp/liter without a significant change in technology.

[powerabout]

The problem with using hp/cid as a metric for boat motors is that with only 1 gear the engine has to have a very broad usable power range and WOT-for-hours-on-end reliability. The SB4 is only making ~65% of peak torque at 2500 rpm and I don't think designed for constant WOT use for 2000 hours. We all know that production cars are making 100+/- hp/liter NA, the SB4 as well. But without the advantage of supercharging, 4-stroke boat motors are making 50-70 hp/liter due to the criticality of low-end torque and reliability reasons. VVT and multiple forward gears can help the situation. Note that cars seem to be around 100 hp/liter now in high performance production applications, but street bikes (where low-end torque and longevity are ess critical than a sports car, even) are making double that. I'll be surprised if we see NA 4-stroke boat motors making more than 75 hp/liter without a significant change in technology.

Yes a way to go before they get to 150hp/ltr ish and get a boat on the plane with one gear like an old school Merc Drag 300/champ/f1 engine
or e-tec sled engine 200hp/ltr
that was in the light and small days now it seems heavy and big is the trend or should I say the only choice?
Or is smart marketing, sell an engine that everyone thinks is programmed wrong so your mate can double the hp with a flash??

[Chaz]

0 payments and about 19 months of warranty left on my 400R, thought I'm not sure why my personal finances are relevant to the discussion.

It appears to have added three words of personal experience to your 400R story .. before you went back to your we're not good enough for you rant.


The fact is that the future of performance outboards is 4-stroke. Eventually, this forum will either accept that or die a long and slow death. Personally, I've almost given up on S&F for relevant/modern performance outboard technical discussion because the 4-strokes are constantly getting poo-poo'd by the old guard. I hate to admit it, but I am forced to frequent veradoclub, bbc, and oso, as they are at least as useful for me...though each have their own issues. I wonder how many potential forum members are out there like me. Based on the rate that the 300R and 400R are selling, I'd venture to guess that there are thousands of folks who are in my situation as well. This can either be a growth opportunity for the site...or nails in the coffin...

I have to hand it to you. You have come to the conclusion the future of performance is 4 strokes. Did you use charts, graphs, market trends .. or did someone just say , hey numb-nutz , BRP is the only one sellin a big 2 stroke , and they might not can hold out much longer .. either way, a brilliant deduction .. :rolleyes:
Sooo Mr. pocket protector, you have a motor that your afraid to touch for the next 19 months, yet somehow you want the writer and readership of this site as well as the aftermarket to cater to you, the guy who is not going to buy more than a prop or two .. before you trade your motor in on another one your afraid to touch.


I personally want to see this site successful in the future and I would love to read about projects pushing the new Merc Racing outboards to their potential and even modifying them....imagine the traffic the site would get if that happened en masse! There are a handful of people trying it and I thank them because that's what will keep this site going for years to come.

Becoming a supporting member is a good way to start. Of course, that would require one to put his money where his mouth is . The next logical step would be to further lead by example with all the wonderful parts you have built for the 400 verado. Personally, I built a stainless header and parts towards a 15" mid-section for one . Rick George was funding the project, when he passed away I turned my work order, time card, materials receipts, jigs, fixtures and parts. I was cut a check and that was the end of that .. It could be in some corner of a shop , it could be getting worked on as we speak. If it's being worked on, do you think the investor would say .. gee , I really think we should post what we learned the hard way .. so Mikey will be amused for many evenings to come. In the real world, if someones going to bring something to market, they will throw a few hints, go fishing a few times. if there is interest in the bait. they will make a run of parts , do some testing .. and offer them for sale when they are ready to throw in the Fed-Up truck .. ;)

Chaz = thinkin , is that crickets .. in the supporting member and tech from Gone-zo-La. I'm ~a~hearin .. :smiletest:
________________________________________________________________

J.P.

Chaz = wunderin , is there any interest in a 15" bucket~n~ can fer ah 300R .. ???

Chaz = beginin to like the looks of them ugly ******** .. :D






From the inside - out, of course .. :thumbsup:

[engineermike]

Thanks for even further proving my point by turning it into a personal attack.

Don’t worry....I won’t retaliate....I said my part. I think on some level you know I’m right.

[Chaz]

No sir , no attack . Just pointing out the obvious . :)

Like I said we're all friends here , and if you see something I said that isn't true , then I will take it back or apologize .. But just because it might be a bitter pill to swallow don't make it not true ... ;)

[engineermike]

It’s against my better judgement, but I’ll bite on that. You said I’m afraid to touch my motor for another 19 months because it’s under warranty. Why would you assume that about me? Maybe it’s true; maybe not. After all, I do daily drive a 2018 mustang 5.0 with a supercharger that I installed years before the warranty was out. What’s the difference? Well there’s a great mustang forum where the new technology is embraced and people start tinkering with them and sharing results literally the day they hit the showrooms. I don’t want to be THE pioneer, but I will be an early adopter when I can read about what the pioneers did and learn from them.

[powerabout]

It’s against my better judgement, but I’ll bite on that. You said I’m afraid to touch my motor for another 19 months because it’s under warranty. Why would you assume that about me? Maybe it’s true; maybe not. After all, I do daily drive a 2018 mustang 5.0 with a supercharger that I installed years before the warranty was out. What’s the difference? Well there’s a great mustang forum where the new technology is embraced and people start tinkering with them and sharing results literally the day they hit the showrooms. I don’t want to be THE pioneer, but I will be an early adopter when I can read about what the pioneers did and learn from them.

Sure, people being doing that forever, sometimes it even helps the factorys r&d

[Chaz]

A 2018 Mustang years before the wty expired ... Psstt , it's mid 2019 by my calendar. It's ok , I'm not good with dates and times either ... :p

Jim Jordan has long since passed away . But his daughter still runs QA-1 shocks / Rod end's / Suspension components. You would have to ask her how many Mustang parts I developed and that I built for them in
lots of 100 at a time during and after the AVO/HAL shock, QA-1 merger. K members, motor mounts, caster/ camber plates, adjustable upper housing bars, and others that escape me now.

Two things I can assure you of :
Not a word of it was "leaked to "Super Ford Magazine" until it was ready to be stocked on Jegs and Summits shelves.
Every bit of it is made in China now.

BTW ...
Have ya noticed, buiz is "BOOMIN" in the 400R -300R HP thread ... :eek: :nonod: :nonod: :nonod:

On a personal note ... :rolleyes:
My apologies, for some reason I thought you might be a leader .. not a follower of the "me too" movement ... :)

[engineermike]

A 2018 Mustang years before the wty expired ... Psstt , it's mid 2019 by my calendar. It's ok , I'm not good with dates and times either ... :p

Bought the car 2/2018, received supercharger 6/2018 and installed right away. 5 yr powertrain warranty would have expired 2/2023. So ya, I installed the supercharger approximately 4.5 years before the warranty would have expired. What are you trying to prove by pointlessly nitpicking this? Kinda' reminds me of the time you asked how many payments I had left on my 400R.


Two things I can assure you of : Not a word of it was "leaked to "Super Ford Magazine" until it was ready to be stocked on Jegs and Summits shelves.

That's what they decided to do and that's all fine but not everyone does it that way. Lethal Performance and FordNXT were releasing info and dyno runs of prototype supercharger kits months before they were available to the public. By the time they went on sale they had generated all sorts of interest...but whatever. Again, pointless nitpicking.

[JPEROG]

This thread started out as 300R VS 300X. I now own both, have run both, have run single and twins with both. The bottom line is that if I had the money, I would replace all of my X and XS motors with 300Rs. They do everything better and yes we will be able to get the power upgraded soon, we will be able to get 15" midsections, and the aftermarket cowls are in the works as well. I was never a fan of the 400R (for small or twin motor applications). 1. because I couldn't justify the expense, 2. because I never saw one run better then a single X on any application, 3. because of the lack of torque "seat of the pants acceleration", and 4. because of the additional weight.

The 300R has proven all 4 reasons that I didn't like the I-6 to stand corrected and completely changed my thoughts. Randy (Wildman) Corson and I were in agreement and both anti four stroke when it came to small hull performance but he has also done a 180 degree turn now that he has experienced several 300R applications.

I suggest that everyone who has commented negatively about this new product go experience them first hand before you hit the keyboard again and look even more foolish-they are that good and going to be even better in the very near future.

441544441545441546441547

Joe

[Whaaaaat]

small hull? What's your idea of a big hull?

[Double Rigged]

This thread started out as 300R VS 300X. I now own both, have run both, have run single and twins with both. The bottom line is that if I had the money, I would replace all of my X and XS motors with 300Rs. They do everything better and yes we will be able to get the power upgraded soon, we will be able to get 15" midsections, and the aftermarket cowls are in the works as well. I was never a fan of the 400R (for small or twin motor applications). 1. because I couldn't justify the expense, 2. because I never saw one run better then a single X on any application, 3. because of the lack of torque "seat of the pants acceleration", and 4. because of the additional weight.

The 300R has proven all 3 reasons that I didn't like the I-6 to stand corrected and completely changed my thoughts. Randy (Wildman) Corson and I were in agreement and both anti four stroke when it came to small hull performance but he has also done a 180 degree turn now that he has experienced several 300R applications.

I suggest that everyone who has commented negatively about this new product go experience them first hand before you hit the keyboard again and look even more foolish-they are that good and going to be even better in the very near future.

441544441545441546441547

Joe
Joe I hear ya loud and clear and have not had the opportunity to run against a 300r powered cat yet. I will admit the performance numbers I am getting from some very reliable sources they are good. I can comment on and agree with what you said regarding the 400r package. For me that motor stock does not get it done against the 300x. I have run against numerous 400r cats. Almost everyone I know is running a tuned computer with the supposed 450hp upgrade to make them even close in acceleration. The concerning thing for me and why I am not 100 percent on board just yet with the 300r is Mother Mercury did a series of test comparisons with 400r vs 300r on the MTI340x. End result was the 400r beat the 300r in acceleration by a tick, was about 4mph faster. That is data holding me back. I agree and have heard going forward that the 300r platform will become the future 350hp, 400hp Mercury O/B and the current inline motor will go away. When they offer a V8 Naturally aspirated 400hp version of the 300r I will be ALL in to repower. Also for those who care the 450hp has a dealer cost in the upper $40,000.00 dollar price range and will weigh more the than the current 400r by a few pounds. It would be nice to see the 300r have a higher redline also. For O/B Cats that package with a 1.60 and 6400rpm limit requires you to have a big pitch prop which is counter productive in acceleration. That is why a 300x is still a beast with 7100rpm redline to work with. Add in a DBR Kit for the 300x and my money is on the 300x package to win on Sundays. I am not stuck in the old times and technology just looking for what works being a performance boater and getting the most for the money.

[JPEROG]

I guess my last sentence didn't work lol...

I consider under 20 feet a small hull. As I stated above, I have never seen a "400R" on a small hull outrun a 300X or not have it disturb the balance to where is was a justifiable option.

A big hull is something that can handle 3 or more of the 400R motors "center consoles" which they have proven to work well when rigged in multiples.

For the midsize cats "the stuff that I love" the 400R never impressed me for the weight and cost.

Joe

[JPEROG]

Joe I hear ya loud and clear and have not had the opportunity to run against a 300r powered cat yet. I will admit the performance numbers I am getting from some very reliable sources they are good. I can comment on and agree with what you said regarding the 400r package. For me that motor stock does not get it done against the 300x. I have run against numerous 400r cats. Almost everyone I know is running a tuned computer with the supposed 450hp upgrade to make them even close in acceleration. The concerning thing for me and why I am not 100 percent on board just yet with the 300r is Mother Mercury did a series of test comparisons with 400r vs 300r on the MTI340x. End result was the 400r beat the 300r in acceleration by a tick, was about 4mph faster. That is data holding me back. I agree and have heard going forward that the 300r platform will become the future 350hp, 400hp Mercury O/B and the current inline motor will go away. When they offer a V8 Naturally aspirated 400hp version of the 300r I will be ALL in to repower. Also for those who care the 450hp has a dealer cost in the upper $40,000.00 dollar price range and will weigh more the than the current 400r by a few pounds. It would be nice to see the 300r have a higher redline also. For O/B Cats that package with a 1.60 and 6400rpm limit requires you to have a big pitch prop which is counter productive in acceleration. That is why a 300x is still a beast with 7100rpm redline to work with. Add in a DBR Kit for the 300x and my money is on the 300x package to win on Sundays. I am not stuck in the old times and technology just looking for what works being a performance boater and getting the most for the money.

Ron,

Its all coming-

Joe

[Double Rigged]

Ron,

Its all coming-

Joe

I know! Just hope I live to use it!!!!! LOL

[JPEROG]

I know! Just hope I live to use it!!!!! LOL

We still have a bunch of good days ahead-"glass half full" always...

Joe

[Mcd]

Never understood why Mercury racing never made an Alien cowl 15" mid 300xs like there using now on the superstock boats.

Other than the mid section almost a parts bin build for Mercury.

I thought the 400ros was going to be something, but I don't think its working out all that great.

A 300r with a 15" Mid, a little more race inspired cowl. Just maybe.

Just guessing Corporate logic will stop that idea.

[PRE-Z06]

The problem with using hp/cid as a metric for boat motors is that with only 1 gear the engine has to have a very broad usable power range and WOT-for-hours-on-end reliability. The SB4 is only making ~65% of peak torque at 2500 rpm and I don't think designed for constant WOT use for 2000 hours. We all know that production cars are making 100+/- hp/liter NA, the SB4 as well. But without the advantage of supercharging, 4-stroke boat motors are making 50-70 hp/liter due to the criticality of low-end torque and reliability reasons. VVT and multiple forward gears can help the situation. Note that cars seem to be around 100 hp/liter now in high performance production applications, but street bikes (where low-end torque and longevity are ess critical than a sports car, even) are making double that. I'll be surprised if we see NA 4-stroke boat motors making more than 75 hp/liter without a significant change in technology.
Not sure why you picked the dip at 2500rpm, but at 2k it makes 70% and by 3500 85% which hardly makes it like a pro stock engine. A stock SHO makes 80hp/L and run to 7500rpm with a tune, but it has VCT like your 5.0. I like the idea of an outboard being as simple and light as possible, the larger displacement 4-stroke makes more lowend torque than the 2-stroke so I don’t see the concern there. The problem is it weighs more and has a larger lower unit with more drag than the old 2-strokes that makes it more sensitive to speed on lighter hulls. Let the V8 run to 7k rpm with the proper valve events like the 400R does and it’ll out run it every day. The 400R with its supercharger doesn’t make much more peak torque than the 300R according to the carb reports, which are backed up by the real world where it only out accelerates it on the topend. Anyone know of any updates on the below?
https://www.wavetowave.com/home/2018/9/25/project-honda-bf-150-the-k24-outboard-revs-up

[AZMIDLYF]

https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?339294-The-Honda-BF-150-Project&highlight=honda+150

[Chaz]

Bought the car 2/2018, received supercharger 6/2018 and installed right away. 5 yr powertrain warranty would have expired 2/2023. So ya, I installed the supercharger approximately 4.5 years before the warranty would have expired. What are you trying to prove by pointlessly nitpicking this? Kinda' reminds me of the time you asked how many payments I had left on my 400R.



That's what they decided to do and that's all fine but not everyone does it that way. Lethal Performance and FordNXT were releasing info and dyno runs of prototype supercharger kits months before they were available to the public. By the time they went on sale they had generated all sorts of interest...but whatever. Again, pointless nitpicking.

Yawwnnn ... So why are you continuing on ... ???

About others accomplishments .. I supercharged many 5.0 rustangs and trucks thru-out the early-mid 90's .. nothin new there .. :nonod:

I started a thread for you , even put the 400R first .. I was hoping to learn sump-tin :)

______________________________________________________________________________



JPEROG


This thread started out as 300R VS 300X. I now own both, have run both, have run single and twins with both. The bottom line is that if I had the money, I would replace all of my X and XS motors with 300Rs.

Thank you for making point : # 1 on many people agenda, including mine.
How much are they ... ? $ XX,XXX.oo They look really nice, but, I'll have to think about it .

Translation: Are you out of your ******* mind ... ;)



I suggest that everyone who has commented negatively about this new product go experience them first hand before you hit the keyboard again and look even more foolish-they are that good and going to be even better in the very near future.

Point #2 Every car, boat, motorcycle, airplane, toaster-oven , dishwasher, etc. mfg today put's out a product that has been thru many departments before being released to the public. I have no doubt they have refined this V-8 outboard to behave as civil as any other of today's products. No need in a 4 stroke lecture, I have owned one or more of them since 1966.
Can you tell me the factory part # for a 280 replacement sleeve ?
Certainly, a company as big and as smart as Brunswick didn't forget to offer one as well as a service bulletin on how to replace it. Their stance .. replace block :)
I don't think your quite old enough to have lived thru the OPEC crisis of the 70's. I put gas in my car, siphoned it out and rode my motorcycle. Many others bought Chevy Vega's. Call it what you want, Aluminum/silicon crystal, Hyperutectic, Mercasil or a host of others. Looks great on paper, in real life proved to be .. I won't call anyone a fool, I'll just say .. not so much.
I can understand your "excitment" , however a few dozen laps around the lake is not like recalling what owning one for 5 years is about.
Maybe bone stock they will be OK, maybe not. With talk of stepping on them reminds me of countless times at the track where guys have put 100 horse plate on a KB hyper-U piston kit. I told them, dude , that **** won't take 10 HP and the timing all the way in the back seat .. two hits later .. JUNK .
But look don't take my word on it .. I'm just an old fool :thumbsup: Fixin ta buy me some of that 25% silicon weldin rod fer patchin holes in them new-fangled blocks ..:nonod:

A lil basic info :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypereutectic_piston

Chaz = thinkin, JP .. Sho you wuz right .. these antique 3.4 / 3.6 L conversions power wheelie like an ol azz CR 500 - YZ 490 Ba-Ruuupppppp ;) :D

[engineermike]

Yawwnnn ... So why are you continuing on ... ???

You took us down this path, buddy. In your post #132, you said if you were wrong about something you would take it back and apologize. I've shown you were wrong about several things so I was looking for that retraction you promised.


About others accomplishments .. I supercharged many 5.0 rustangs and trucks thru-out the early-mid 90's .. nothin new there .. :nonod:

I see you missed the point on that one as well. I'm in no way bragging about supercharging my mustang or calling it any kind of accomplishment. I'm simply showing that I'm not afraid to modify something that's new and within the warranty period, as you claimed. See my first point above.


I started a thread for you , even put the 400R first ..

I can't wait to see the graphs you post up. Me? As I said...I'm not the pioneer and never claimed to be...just an early adopter. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by creating that thread, other than your disdain for the new 4-strokes.


How much are they ... ? $ XX,XXX.oo They look really nice, but, I'll have to think about it .

About the same price as the old 2.5 SS, inflation adjusted of course.

[JPEROG]

JPEROG

This thread started out as 300R VS 300X. I now own both, have run both, have run single and twins with both. The bottom line is that if I had the money, I would replace all of my X and XS motors with 300Rs.

Thank you for making point : # 1 on many people agenda, including mine.
How much are they ... ? $ XX,XXX.oo They look really nice, but, I'll have to think about it .

Translation: Are you out of your ******* mind ... ;)


Thats the same thing people were saying in 98' when I bought my first set of 280s and told everyone how much better they were then the 260s. That difference is nothing compared to what we are talking about today. I might be out of my *******mind but so is everyone else that has run them and that is why I can't get another set until Dec. or Jan. These motors are user friendly enough to do 200 mile day trips and not have to carry fuel additives, oil, and everything else that makes the old stuff a pain. I guess I am getting old and seeing the value in "no hassle performance". Don't think for a minute that I am getting rid of my X stroker stuff but its only because I can't afford to...One of these with 1.60 gear and slight limiter modification would be a welcomed change for my STV, Allison, or Skater but its not in the card$.

Joe

[powerabout]

can you get a 4s chainsaw yet?

or only big and heavy ones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ROlobV2T00

[Chaz]

You took us down this path, buddy. In your post #132, you said if you were wrong about something you would take it back and apologize. I've shown you were wrong about several things so I was looking for that retraction you promised.



I see you missed the point on that one as well. I'm in no way bragging about supercharging my mustang or calling it any kind of accomplishment. I'm simply showing that I'm not afraid to modify something that's new and within the warranty period, as you claimed. See my first point above.



I can't wait to see the graphs you post up. Me? As I said...I'm not the pioneer and never claimed to be...just an early adopter. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by creating that thread, other than your disdain for the new 4-strokes.



About the same price as the old 2.5 SS, inflation adjusted of course.

What are you , 14 years old .. ??? If your old enough to shave, you deff carried a "I'm with her" sign in 2016 .. ;)

Was this not good enough for you .. ???


On a personal note ... :rolleyes:

My apologies, for some reason I thought you might be a leader .. not a follower of the "me too" movement ... :)

If you need more, earn it. Go to red river raceway and go fast enough to have my good friends Nelson+ Marla give ya the boot for going to fast without a cage. Otherwise .. I'll think you got an empty case sittin on top of your intake , to impress the other tiny-bops in the school parkin lot .. :p

Chaz = thinkin, I can tell you never :nonod: changed the trim cyl seals, swivel bushings, in your shrimp head .. Otherwise you'd still be cussin .. :D

http://www.motocontinent.ru/upload/Mercury%20Verado%20400XLSM-2.jpghttps://images.fastcompany.net/image/upload/w_1280,f_auto,q_auto,fl_lossy/fc/3044190-poster-p-1-are-shrimp-shells-the-future-of-solar-cells.jpg

[engineermike]

What are you , 14 years old .. ???

Well if that ain’t the pot calling the kettle black...


If you need more, earn it. Go to red river raceway and go fast enough to have my good friends Nelson+ Marla give ya the boot for going to fast without a cage. Otherwise .. I'll think you got an empty case sittin on top of your intake , to impress the other tiny-bops in the school parkin lot .. :p

Been there, done that, except it was at NPR circa ~2002. You’ve been wrong about me at every corner; I’d think you’d stop making ass-umptions by now.


Chaz = thinkin, I can tell you never :nonod: changed the trim cyl seals, swivel bushings, in your shrimp head .. Otherwise you'd still be cussin .. :D


My “shrimp head” is still under warranty, remember? Shrimp head? What are you, 14 years old?

[FORBESAUTO]

I ain’t got nuttin bad to say about the new 4.6. I’d love to be able to play with one and see what we could get out of it. Problem is. I is on the po folk side of town and can’t afford to go out and buy one of these new motas then take it apart and start playing. Don’t know anyone willing to let me:eek:. The few I know that’s bought new bass boats with em, fo sho nuff ain’t got no money to put em right away. We would have to find someone to tune em. The few I’ve seen, they all love em though. I’m a guessing that the majority is in our boots in this matter, that’s why ya ain’t seeing much moddin goin on. Give it ten years when ya can get ya hands on some wo out ones, then things ‘ill begin to change. If any y’all got mo money than sense, we can sho start playing :eek:

[powerabout]

I ain’t got nuttin bad to say about the new 4.6. I’d love to be able to play with one and see what we could get out of it. Problem is. I is on the po folk side of town and can’t afford to go out and buy one of these new motas then take it apart and start playing. Don’t know anyone willing to let me:eek:. The few I know that’s bought new bass boats with em, fo sho nuff ain’t got no money to put em right away. We would have to find someone to tune em. The few I’ve seen, they all love em though. I’m a guessing that the majority is in our boots in this matter, that’s why ya ain’t seeing much moddin goin on. Give it ten years when ya can get ya hands on some wo out ones, then things ‘ill begin to change. If any y’all got mo money than sense, we can sho start playing :eek:
will those paper thin castings last 10 years?

[FORBESAUTO]

Only time ‘ill tell. Technology is a wonderful thing. We gotta learn to move with it, or get left behind.

[FORBESAUTO]

Don’t get me wrong, I hate to see the 2 strokes go. That’s the whole reason my hobbie is boats, I work on car motors everyday for a living, it’s nice to play with something different. Mercury is looking ahead at future emissions standards and sees the writing in the wall. Much easier to be ahead of the game and have it right when you are forced to. I understand that and know it has to happen, whether I like it or not. Same reason ford ditched the pushrod motors for the mid motors. Yeah, they caught grief about it, but look now where they are with the coyote and other engines.

[powerabout]

Don’t get me wrong, I hate to see the 2 strokes go. That’s the whole reason my hobbie is boats, I work on car motors everyday for a living, it’s nice to play with something different. Mercury is looking ahead at future emissions standards and sees the writing in the wall. Much easier to be ahead of the game and have it right when you are forced to. I understand that and know it has to happen, whether I like it or not. Same reason ford ditched the pushrod motors for the mid motors. Yeah, they caught grief about it, but look now where they are with the coyote and other engines.
didnt ford just build a new pushrod motor?

[FORBESAUTO]

Yes they did, the new 7.3l. The theory behind it is that it will only be used in heavier duty vehicles with gross weights over around 12k, and is designed to be operated in the lower rpm ranges where a large pushrod motor can make more torque and be more fuel efficient and clean. This type motor would not work in a light duty daily driver that isn’t towing and seeing higher rpms (speaking only of fuel mileage and emissions), without doing stupid stuff like killing half the cylinders while cruising by unloading lifters and building a piece of junk that will be lucky to 150k miles before taking a dump

[Chaz]

Been there, done that, except it was at NPR circa ~2002. You’ve been wrong about me at every corner; I’d think you’d stop making ass-umptions by now.

My “shrimp head” is still under warranty, remember? Shrimp head? What are you, 14 years old?

Yea , you "built" a supercharged rustang "to not see what it would run " .. OK I got it now .. LMAO

You just "woke" ? They been callin them Verado's "shrimpheads" since they came out.

They say copy~cat is the most sincere form of flattery. I'm flattered, your still 14, and here is a little matching gift to go with your shrimphead this summer .. :thumbsup:

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/6a6e4bf2-42ab-4d3c-993c-c9742ac4a4a6_1.c912bf443ab48290639421f898c981d3.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF

[engineermike]

Yea , you "built" a supercharged rustang "to not see what it would run " .. OK I got it now .. LMAO

I “built” a 95 Camaro to see what it would run at the strip. I “installed” a supercharger on my daily to drive back and forth to work. Much like personal finances, not sure why what I do with my vehicles is any of your business though. You said I hadn’t run under 10, well I did so now you’re off on yet another tangent trying to find new ways to berate me.


You just "woke" ? They been callin them Verado's "shrimpheads" since they came out.

Oh I know....I just thought it was a tad hypocritical for someone to accuse someone else of being immature then in the very same post say their motor looks like a shrimp head. What’s next? You going to make fun of my momma?

I’ll give you this....you win the award for tenacity when it comes to insulting people. Even when proven wrong you just keep at it. Congrats on that.

[Chaz]

Mikey , your as lost as last years Easter eggs. Sorry to break the bad news. It's never been about you .. So before you spaz out with another knee jerk reaction . In order for most guys to go out and buy a new truck, boat, repower the boat they have chances are pretty good they have to take out a loan. If you didn't have to, or put down a large downstroke so you had small payments and then made double hook shots every other month, then your more like me than maybe you care to admit. ( BTW , they call it credit, It's OK to have it , and even use it ) :rolleyes:
On the other hand, you could live in a homeless shelter and have nothing. Honestly, I don't care one way or another.
If I was not in the position to roll my own and I was making payments on two new motors, the last ******* thing I would do is have some yo-yo 3000 miles away B+E the box's to void the wty. Nothin like bein reminded every month of a bad decision. Again wasn't pointin a finger at you. ( explaining why so little info )
However, I still stand on my original point. And yes this is directly at you > If you think the site is dying a slow death because no one will hand you a FREE "guide to Verado power secrets" ..
Then either be the guy who fills that gap and educates us.
Or ... well , ( Chaz = holding tounge ) have a nice weekend :)

[engineermike]

.... In order for most guys to go out and buy a new truck, boat, repower the boat they have chances are pretty good they have to take out a loan. If you didn't have to, or put down a large downstroke so you had small payments and then made double hook shots every other month, then your more like me than maybe you care to admit....If I was not in the position to roll my own and I was making payments on two new motors, the last ******* thing I would do is have some yo-yo 3000 miles away B+E the box's to void the wty. Nothin like bein reminded every month of a bad decision

If I follow the above, you’re basically saying that people shouldn’t modify stuff that’s under warranty if it’s financed? If that’s the case I actually can’t necessarily disagree with you.


( BTW , they call it credit, It's OK to have it , and even use it ) On the other hand, you could live in a homeless shelter and have nothing..

Again wondering why you’re so obsessed with my personal finances.


If you think the site is dying a slow death because no one will hand you a FREE "guide to Verado power secrets" ..

Nice straw man argument. I never said it so I won’t bother with a rebuttal. I’m pretty sure you’re smart enough to know that’s not what im suggesting.


.... It's never been about you ..

That we can agree on as well. I originally posted on behalf of the future of the site and sport and prospective future members. You made it about me when you started with the personal attacks.

[AZMIDLYF]

JPEROG, did this set up ever get dialed in and was there a previous power to compare with?

441838

[Chaz]

Again wondering why you’re so obsessed with my personal finances.



I'm not , I told two or three times already that it's not about you.

It has everything to do with the general public, credit, and warranty periods.

It's become obvious your too stupid to comprehend that.

Last thing I said to your ignorant ass was "Have a good weekend"

Perhaps your more accustom to hearing it like this "Phukk Off Loser" :p

[AZMIDLYF]

This General Public is starting to become concerned...:nonod:

[Chaz]

This General Public is starting to become concerned...:nonod:

No need , just like a judge .. take it case by case. One doesn't overlap the other .. :thumbsup:

If I was ta break my own rule .. I think I'd have to go get this one. ( Matches my eyes) I still have Mid section stuff I got from ACE that I haven't opened yet. Based off of our other deal's , everything was as nice or nicer than he said it was ... :cheers:

https://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=441557&d=1560361431

[PRE-Z06]

441884
Can someone help me modify these outboards on my daughter’s new Ocean Cruiser from Bass Pro? They’re paid off, but trying to figure out if they’re Merc 2-strokes or 4s :D

[JPEROG]

JPEROG, did this set up ever get dialed in and was there a previous power to compare with?

441838

It never went to its full potential but the owner was very happy with the motor overall. Its now in the process of being rigged on his Argo.

Joe

[engineermike]

....It has everything to do with the general public, credit, and warranty periods.

This may come as a shock to you so you might want to sit down. In every arm of powersports and motorsports people throw the warranty out the window, many while still paying a note. Visit any sports car, sxs, atv, pwc, snowmobile, etc forum and you see that the majority of “buzz” is about what people are doing with the brand new stuff that’s most recently released. Hell, there’s an engine modification forum devoted to the 2019+ ford ranger for chrissake! All those paid off and out of factory warranty I suppose? Nope. People modify new stuff inside the warranty period every. Damn. Day. I’m not buying that that’s what’s stopping folks from modifying new outboards.


It's become obvious your too stupid to comprehend that.

Last thing I said to your ignorant ass was "Have a good weekend"

Perhaps your more accustom to hearing it like this "Phukk Off Loser" :p

Glad we could act like adults here.

[powerabout]

I think people like 4s because they think they can mod them from a laptop, which might be true.
I'm sure thats lots of people whereas the people that can mod a 2 stroke are very small and most of that is a one way path with machining.
So who has a pulsed flow bench to test reeds?
How about cfd programme that can deal with pulsed flow?

[powerabout]

if laptop tuners are so smart where's the tune for an e-tec?

[FMP]

441884
Can someone help me modify these outboards on my daughter’s new Ocean Cruiser from Bass Pro? They’re paid off, but trying to figure out if they’re Merc 2-strokes or 4s :D

Looks like a couple of rug munchers:p

[PRE-Z06]

I think people like 4s because they think they can mod them from a laptop, which might be true.
I'm sure thats of people whereas the people that can mod a 2 stroke are very small and most of that is a one way path with machining.
So who has a pulsed flow bench to test reeds?
How about cfd programme that can deal with pulsed flow?
Yamaha’s 200-300hp 4.2LV6 are the same hardware and only differ in software changes, which I assume was done because of cost with mass production of parts being cheaper. Mercury followed in their footsteps with the 4.6LV8 being the same hardware for 200-300hp (excluding 300R) versions besides the throttle body. If talking aftermarket, does anyone even have the ability yet to truly tune them or are they just reflashing a higher hp factory tune? I don’t think the manufacturer did it to make them more popular than 2-strokes, it was dictated by cost and emissions. Most people will take the path of least resistance, so I guess it’s still easier to easier/cheaper to modify the 2-stroke at this point in time though maybe things will change one day.

Happy Father’s Day to all!

[powerabout]

Yamaha’s 200-300hp 4.2LV6 are the same hardware and only differ in software changes, which I assume was done because of cost with mass production of parts being cheaper. Mercury followed in their footsteps with the 4.6LV8 being the same hardware for 200-300hp (excluding 300R) versions besides the throttle body. If talking aftermarket, does anyone even have the ability yet to truly tune them or are they just reflashing a higher hp factory tune? I don’t think the manufacturer did it to make them more popular than 2-strokes, it was dictated by cost and emissions. Most people will take the path of least resistance, so I guess it’s still easier to easier/cheaper to modify the 2-stroke at this point in time though maybe things will change one day.

Happy Father’s Day to all!

yes but the funny part is the e-tecs are cleaner, perhaps they should license that technology so others can use it and save the planet?

[PRE-Z06]

yes but the funny part is the e-tecs are cleaner, perhaps they should license that technology so others can use it and save the planet?
I wonder if Mercury will make marketing videos of their new 4-strokes playing tug a war with the G2 now? Anyone modifying them or are they too expensive and heavy?

[mjw930]

I wonder if Mercury will make marketing videos of their new 4-strokes playing tug a war with the G2 now? Anyone modifying them or are they too expensive and heavy?

The new Mercury V8’s and V6’s are pretty much the same weight or lighter and in many cases less expensive then their competition so if there’s an interest in modding the competition I’m sure there will be for the Mercs.

[Chaz]

Yamaha’s 200-300hp 4.2LV6 are the same hardware and only differ in software changes, which I assume was done because of cost with mass production of parts being cheaper. Mercury followed in their footsteps with the 4.6LV8 being the same hardware for 200-300hp (excluding 300R) versions besides the throttle body. If talking aftermarket, does anyone even have the ability yet to truly tune them or are they just reflashing a higher hp factory tune? I don’t think the manufacturer did it to make them more popular than 2-strokes, it was dictated by cost and emissions. Most people will take the path of least resistance, so I guess it’s still easier to easier/cheaper to modify the 2-stroke at this point in time though maybe things will change one day.

Happy Father’s Day to all!

On the Yamaha performance site they offer the 200 and all steps between, the 300 tune with "stock", 6500 and 7000 rpm limiter.
Now I'm pretty sure that when they wrote the program for those motors in Japan, they didn't fill in the blanks to 7 , 8 , 9 and 10,000 rpm. Why would they if they were never going to see anything more than 6000.
How many guys had their Merc box reflashed, only to say, it doesn't go on the limiter , but it doesn't go any faster either. Sure a big part of it is that it has run out of air. Port restrictions, port timing ( or camshaft) etc. but I can't help but think that what you pay for is a big copy and paste job of the 5000 to 6000 rpm window parameters into the 6000 to 7000 rpm slots. Or just a continuation of the pulse width number used @ 6000.
Every dyno session I have been part of, I watched the need for fuel start to go away after torque peak . That's sposta be one of the benefits of fuel injection, the ability to trim fuel load as rpm increases. I think most guys get the above mentioned generic CYA factory tune with a raised limiter. If they were to develop a "lean-best" tune-up on the dyno and or 800' drag racing and then sell it to a guy with a heavy boat or to guys who hold them WFO for ten miles or more @ a time .. they would earn a bad reputation, pretty fast. So in good faith you pay numbers inching twords $1000 , don't ask whats done , they don't tell , and everybody goes their separate ways .. happy. :)
Merc went to Whipple while developing the Verado package. They learned a lesson the hard way. They were use to dealing with Moto-tune who is still more than happy to tell you to buy a "new" twenty year old $2500 box from Merc instead of "fixing" or "reassigning" your old one. Got a Verado, have at it, Whipple is more than willing to never be used by Merc again.
It's been cat + mouse ever since . 2014 and newer box's are a little different to B+E from what I hear. Guys with the new .. guys waiting to get a new V-8 , throw around, O-yea, I'll get the box done ... I'd like to see the list of guys that have got the can opener for that one .. And then what, raise the limiter .. here we go again !

[PRE-Z06]

The new Mercury V8’s and V6’s are pretty much the same weight or lighter and in many cases less expensive then their competition so if there’s an interest in modding the competition I’m sure there will be for the Mercs.
From what I’ve seen posted on people who’ve actually hung them on meat hook, they’re not as light as claimed. Did marketing intentionally have them weighed without fluids and cowl to help ease those that going to a 4-stroke isn’t going to add weight?

[PRE-Z06]

On the Yamaha performance site they offer the 200 and all steps between, the 300 tune with "stock", 6500 and 7000 rpm limiter.
Now I'm pretty sure that when they wrote the program for those motors in Japan, they didn't fill in the blanks to 7 , 8 , 9 and 10,000 rpm. Why would they if they were never going to see anything more than 6000.
How many guys had their Merc box reflashed, only to say, it doesn't go on the limiter , but it doesn't go any faster either. Sure a big part of it is that it has run out of air. Port restrictions, port timing ( or camshaft) etc. but I can't help but think that what you pay for is a big copy and paste job of the 5000 to 6000 rpm window parameters into the 6000 to 7000 rpm slots. Or just a continuation of the pulse width number used @ 6000.
Every dyno session I have been part of, I watched the need for fuel start to go away after torque peak . That's sposta be one of the benefits of fuel injection, the ability to trim fuel load as rpm increases. I think most guys get the above mentioned generic CYA factory tune with a raised limiter. If they were to develop a "lean-best" tune-up on the dyno and or 800' drag racing and then sell it to a guy with a heavy boat or to guys who hold them WFO for ten miles or more @ a time .. they would earn a bad reputation, pretty fast. So in good faith you pay numbers inching twords $1000 , don't ask whats done , they don't tell , and everybody goes their separate ways .. happy. :)
Merc went to Whipple while developing the Verado package. They learned a lesson the hard way. They were use to dealing with Moto-tune who is still more than happy to tell you to buy a "new" twenty year old $2500 box from Merc instead of "fixing" or "reassigning" your old one. Got a Verado, have at it, Whipple is more than willing to never be used by Merc again.
It's been cat + mouse ever since . 2014 and newer box's are a little different to B+E from what I hear. Guys with the new .. guys waiting to get a new V-8 , throw around, O-yea, I'll get the box done ... I'd like to see the list of guys that have got the can opener for that one .. And then what, raise the limiter .. here we go again !
You may be right, but I thought Wayne used to work for the manufacturer. I’ve seen results of so called tuners like you speak of that customer’s of theirs came to our dyno days back at the shop, so I have no doubt it exists in the marine world as well. I’ve heard spinning the sho over 7k results in issues an believe the best bet is to prop it to run 6500-6800 (tel:6500-6800) max as the vct can only help so much as well up top. Never go full retard as said in Tropic Thunder lol. Any loss in torque hopefully is offset by smaller pitch prop from increasing linter though maybe not depending on how much speed is gained I suppose. Nizpro of course makes a supercharger to turn it into a 450, though lower unit can’t keep up is what I hear. I don’t deliver Simon is raising the limiter over stock on V6/8 Mercury’s though someone can correct me if wrong. I don’t know if that’s to keep warranty from being voided or it’s not possible, but hoping this thread stirs up some to see the interest that’s out there. You’re right though building a drag engine is totally different than an endurance marine engine. It’s like our Monster triple disc clutch that reset the GM H-pattern stick shift record of 7.82@190 Friday night, not the clutch I’d necessarily recommend for your daily driver.

[powerabout]

10 speed auto has won the drag race over any stick shift i hear...
Time for the Deuce High lower to reappear on the 450DR model
(DR = drag race)

[PRE-Z06]

10 speed auto has won the drag race over any stick shift i hear...
Time for the Deuce High lower to reappear on the 450DR model
(DR = drag race)
I’ve heard some people equate drag racing an auto to screwing a blow up doll, it’s easier on parts I’ll give you that.

[mjw930]

From what I’ve seen posted on people who’ve actually hung them on meat hook, they’re not as light as claimed. Did marketing intentionally have them weighed without fluids and cowl to help ease those that going to a 4-stroke isn’t going to add weight?
Most manufactures publish weight dry, that’s the default. With a 2 stroke about the only discrepancy will be the weight of the small oil tank, whatever fuel is in the injector system and the oil in the lower. On a 4 stroke you add 6 or 7 quarts of oil. No one takes the time to add the weight of the 3 gallon remote oil tank and there’s a significant weight penalty with the offshore mid and associated remote pump.

Pick whatever nits you want but weights are +- 50 lbs over the last 15 years and the latest generation are faster than their predecessor on the same boats regardless the weight and isn’t that the only thing that really matters?

[powerabout]

I’ve heard some people equate drag racing an auto to screwing a blow up doll, it’s easier on parts I’ll give you that.
so where is clutchless crash box shifting with ignition cutout fit these days, up and down??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azpqTZ6WeJk

sounds like a 2s v 4s conversation lol

[Chaz]

I really can't speak to the Yamaha's . While there are a million of them down here , they are all on fishing boats from what I see. And yes reading on the Yamaha performance site, they are ex Yamaha employees.
I think with any of them, if you were to put your motor on their dyno, you are more apt to get a more "personalized" flash .. but then , maybe not.
I use a test wheel, egt, O2, Moroso Plug light, Camera to look at piston tops, adj fuel pressure reg, 4-5 different rate injectors, potentiometer on the IAT sensor, 10 box's of plugs if thats what it takes. And chances are it might wind up with both 8's and 9's in it before the red dot's happy .. Do I know exactly how much HP it's making .. No .. Can I tell a good one from one that struggles to RPM .. of course, anyone with a good ear can. Do i have a pretty good idea of what that particular motor want's for timing and fuel load on that day, probably just a little bit more than a guy that John Q Public would send a box to and say here dude, flash this for me to haul azz ..;)




It’s like our Monster triple disc clutch that reset the GM H-pattern stick shift record of 7.82@190 Friday night, not the clutch I’d necessarily recommend for your daily driver.





ZR-1 .. I always knew multi-disc clutch's to diminish in diameter and become more sophisticated in how they apply / release thru low pressure static (pedal) and then thru counter ( rpm - centrifugal) finger application. Perhaps yours if different ..

This record .. What association is this with .. ???
Just think of the sub-records .. :thumbsup:
windows half down .
radio on .
windshild wipers .

I've built a bunch of 1.80 straight cut glides . A couple of 1.69 low gear box's for a guy who had a 5.00" bore space Sonney's motor that had so much torque that it would square up the tire at the hit.
Now their building Turbo-glides. Which is a Turbo 400 without the first gear. They leave in second 1.45 off the brake and go sub 1.00 flat 60'
Since that's what they "all" have now .. it's hard to claim a record . They'll have to wait till they're the only ones left with an obscure, outdated, combo to do that .. :p

We set the record for waiting the longest to stage while our kids hugged, fist bumped, high fived, etc ... ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbklQpOZlTc

[PRE-Z06]

I really can't speak to the Yamaha's . While there are a million of them down here , they are all on fishing boats from what I see. And yes reading on the Yamaha performance site, they are ex Yamaha employees.
I think with any of them, if you were to put your motor on their dyno, you are more apt to get a more "personalized" flash .. but then , maybe not.
I use a test wheel, egt, O2, Moroso Plug light, Camera to look at piston tops, adj fuel pressure reg, 4-5 different rate injectors, potentiometer on the IAT sensor, 10 box's of plugs if thats what it takes. And chances are it might wind up with both 8's and 9's in it before the red dot's happy .. Do I know exactly how much HP it's making .. No .. Can I tell a good one from one that struggles to RPM .. of course, anyone with a good ear can. Do i have a pretty good idea of what that particular motor want's for timing and fuel load on that day, probably just a little bit more than a guy that John Q Public would send a box to and say here dude, flash this for me to haul azz ..;)







ZR-1 .. I always knew multi-disc clutch's to diminish in diameter and become more sophisticated in how they apply / release thru low pressure static (pedal) and then thru counter ( rpm - centrifugal) finger application. Perhaps yours if different ..

This record .. What association is this with .. ???
Just think of the sub-records .. :thumbsup:
windows half down .
radio on .
windshild wipers .

I've built a bunch of 1.80 straight cut glides . A couple of 1.69 low gear box's for a guy who had a 5.00" bore space Sonney's motor that had so much torque that it would square up the tire at the hit.
Now their building Turbo-glides. Which is a Turbo 400 without the first gear. They leave in second 1.45 off the brake and go sub 1.00 flat 60'
Since that's what they "all" have now .. it's hard to claim a record . They'll have to wait till they're the only ones left with an obscure, outdated, combo to do that .. :p

We set the record for waiting the longest to stage while our kids hugged, fist bumped, high fived, etc ... ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbklQpOZlTc



I figured you’d appreciate cars with a man pedal being a Grump fan. Fastest stick shift record is 7.55@189 in a lighter car. The clutch is surprisingly simple with no centrifugal weights to increase the clamping force, this is the third GM in the 7s with it. Launch is controlled by your foot release and you bang the gears as it’s a traditional 6-speed with an IRS. 60’ was soft being a 1.3 as he’s been 1.2 before the turbos with Nitrous. Heck I went 1.4 on a 26” tall ET street on a 17x8.5” rim at 3100lbs and only 422 NA rwhp with a single Kevlar disc clutch.

[Chaz]

Shout out to Tom Foley from Jon Baugh 3:00 minutes deep into this video ... along with one of the pioneers of the 1, 2, 3, auto motorcycle no-kill box .. :thumbsup:

Yes I am a fan Bill Jenkins . As a kid I saw Ronnie Sox row a 4 speed at Miami Hollywood Speedway Park . And I remember when they all went to the me. gasket verticle gate shifters. And yes i had to have one for my 69 Chevelle. A PIA on the street, but when your young ... :rolleyes:

I respect what it takes to make a single stage clutch not bog or knock the tires off ... and to finesse the 2-3 shift on a H pattern shifter.
And you guys have a good runnin car ..
But on the same token ,, you have to understand .. what it sounds like when you throw yourselves in with this elite group ... :eek:

I got the fastest stock bottom end 5.0 Mustang in the world !
" " " " completely stock 5.0 Mustang " " " !
" " " " single single e-bay turbo stock except for cam and rod bolts 5.0 Mustang !

Is there some kind of idiot brigade record book .. somewhere .. ??? :icon_bs:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4vn8a17gUo

[PRE-Z06]

Shout out to Tom Foley from Jon Baugh 3:00 minutes deep into this video ... along with one of the pioneers of the 1, 2, 3, auto motorcycle no-kill box .. :thumbsup:

Yes I am a fan Bill Jenkins . As a kid I saw Ronnie Sox row a 4 speed at Miami Hollywood Speedway Park . And I remember when they all went to the me. gasket verticle gate shifters. And yes i had to have one for my 69 Chevelle. A PIA on the street, but when your young ... :rolleyes:

I respect what it takes to make a single stage clutch not bog or knock the tires off ... and to finesse the 2-3 shift on a H pattern shifter.
And you guys have a good runnin car ..
But on the same token ,, you have to understand .. what it sounds like when you throw yourselves in with this elite group ... :eek:

I got the fastest stock bottom end 5.0 Mustang in the world !
" " " " completely stock 5.0 Mustang " " " !
" " " " single single e-bay turbo stock except for cam and rod bolts 5.0 Mustang !

Is there some kind of idiot brigade record book .. somewhere .. ??? :icon_bs:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4vn8a17gUo
I hear ya, just feel it’s more of an accomplishment/challenge when you’re having do more work and not just along for the ride i.e. actually rowing the gears and using your feet to launch and shift, not pulling some lever in a sequential with planetaries or adjusting a pressure plate to get the optimum engagement. Here’s the car for whatever it’s worth...
https://www.lsxmag.com/news/jared-cocanoughers-7-second-c5-z06-rests-gm-stick-shift-record/

[Scream And Fly]

Guys, healthy debates are a good thing but let's not make them personal, alright? That's all I ask.

[stoker2001]

I guess my last sentence didn't work lol...

I consider under 20 feet a small hull. As I stated above, I have never seen a "400R" on a small hull outrun a 300X or not have it disturb the balance to where is was a justifiable option.

A big hull is something that can handle 3 or more of the 400R motors "center consoles" which they have proven to work well when rigged in multiples.

For the midsize cats "the stuff that I love" the 400R never impressed me for the weight and cost.

Joe
Joe with all due respect,Mr Corson just posted cost of upgrading his 22' to the 450 was $105K verses $75 K for 300r (boats ready to go)..and you thought the 400 was costly..LOL