The Honda BF 150 Project

[WavetoWave]

Here are some details on how the project came to be and some details about it. Should be an interesting project to say the least.

Article
https://www.wavetowave.com/home/2018/9/25/project-honda-bf-150-the-k24-outboard-revs-up


Block is sleeved, large bore piston from Wiseco, Saenz connecting rods. Custom ECU by Motec. Custom 4Piston cylinder head.

http://i65.tinypic.com/amcy9f.png

[WavetoWave]

Goal is to be the lightest 250+ HP, 4 stroke.

Potential test boat:

http://i64.tinypic.com/ih1x1v.jpg

[home made tunnel]

That article is just some basic info - Where's the project info? I was looking forward to seeing some rice tuners rip apart and modify a BF150

[WavetoWave]

That article is just some basic info - Where's the project info? I was looking forward to seeing some rice tuners rip apart and modify a BF150

Can't reveal everything, but lots of information there.

[oldschoolltv]

We were a Honda motorcycle dealer for 35 years some of the bikes run hours above 10,000 rpm’s on the race circuit with rev limits up to 14,000+ Why can’t they turn one of these 8,000 and still be reliable. Subsribed.

[Radiant]

This should be a good project. What are the plans for the lower unit?

[NeedOne]

This is awesome. K series is such a great engine.. never knew thats what was under the cowl of Honda O/Bs
Im picturing a k20a valve train and vtec killer cams on the K24.. NA power for light weight!
whatever route you go, its a super cool project

[Greg G]

Goal is to be the lightest 250+ HP, 4 stroke.

Put a target weight up. Will you be <500lbs all in?

[WavetoWave]

Put a target weight up. Will you be <500lbs all in?

Ya, should be about 470.

[WavetoWave]

This should be a good project. What are the plans for the lower unit?

The one in SEMA will have a stock lower, with a nosecone and custom gears. But in reality it will need something better.

[WavetoWave]

We were a Honda motorcycle dealer for 35 years some of the bikes run hours above 10,000 rpm’s on the race circuit with rev limits up to 14,000+ Why can’t they turn one of these 8,000 and still be reliable. Subsribed.

Absolutely, this will rev to 8,000.

[Markus]

Can't reveal everything, but lots of information there.

Where?

[JrCRXHF]

Should be a fun project to watch. I have always loved the Honda B series motors. The K is just as good or in some regards better. I really want to see how they shift the TQ curve to get some low-end TQ.

[home made tunnel]

Where?

Lol that's what I said. It doesn't talk about the ouboard build at all - just "We're going to do something..."
TEASE !

Lets see the motor ripped apart - Lets see the pistons and rods going in - Lets see the powerhead sitting next to an automotive block?

[Da Bull]

I agree. Why post if no telling.

[AZMIDLYF]

This is interesting.

[Capt.Insane-o]

Yeah...in stock form those motors are gutless turds. Hopefully they baseline it before.

[Jim Gibbs]

This is awesome. K series is such a great engine.. never knew thats what was under the cowl of Honda O/Bs
Im picturing a k20a valve train and vtec killer cams on the K24.. NA power for light weight!
whatever route you go, its a super cool project
I've been daily driving an '04 RSX type S with the K20. Parked it at 300K miles to do a refresh before something broke. Original clutch, water pump, alternator, etc. What a great fun little car. I have a K24 out of an '07 TSX that has the more aggressive cams, so, will use the K20 head on the K24 bottom end and cams. Should make about 285 reliable horsepower.

[JCSmile]

I agree. Why post if no telling.

Yes, because when people do innovative engine mods they are supposed to show you everything they did before they have even completed the project themselves :rolleyes:. If you are looking for a good read, I'll post a link of a 500hp NA k24 that was completed by the same people that are the brains behind this venture (I think). Curious to see if they can make ~250-300 hp with a reasonable amount of added cost on these engines. The k24 is a similar engine to the BF150 to my understanding.

http://blog.wiseco.com/the-500-horsepower-naturally-aspirated-k24-engine-by-4piston

[NeedOne]

I've been daily driving an '04 RSX type S with the K20. Parked it at 300K miles to do a refresh before something broke. Original clutch, water pump, alternator, etc. What a great fun little car. I have a K24 out of an '07 TSX that has the more aggressive cams, so, will use the K20 head on the K24 bottom end and cams. Should make about 285 reliable horsepower.

They are such fun cars - '06 type S was the first 'cool' car I bought for myself.. still miss it sometimes!
Sounds like you have a solid build planned - its awesome how Hondas are like legos you can mix and match so easily.
The vtec killer cams I think would be perfect for an outboard - they kill the low cam and its just permanently in high cam.. imagine that on a STV or something

Side note - Whats up with hating on people that contribute to S & F... gonna drive away the few that are contributing with big projects like this one

[Capt.Insane-o]

Noticing the Allison in the article... A quote from Darris from another article

We tested the Super Sport with a 90 HP Honda when it debuted and it ran 70 MPH, but the issue with that engine was it was heavy and sluggish.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wavetowave.com/home/2018/5/29/10-questions-with-darris-allison%3fformat=amp

[Iowafshr]

Any progress updates?

[home made tunnel]

Any progress updates?

He says what’s the point. He won’t share the secrets. No show-and-tell until it’s done. Like that time I was in 3rd grade, stood up in front of the class when it was my turn for show and tell(but I forgot it that day) so I said “guys, wait till next week, I have this really cool thing to show you...”
and you could hear crickets chirping lol.

I was excited to see more about this project, but it seems the OP is tight as a clam.

[home made tunnel]

Yes, because when people do innovative engine mods they are supposed to show you everything they did before they have even completed the project themselves :rolleyes:. If you are looking for a good read, I'll post a link of a 500hp NA k24 that was completed by the same people that are the brains behind this venture (I think). Curious to see if they can make ~250-300 hp with a reasonable amount of added cost on these engines. The k24 is a similar engine to the BF150 to my understanding.

http://blog.wiseco.com/the-500-horsepower-naturally-aspirated-k24-engine-by-4piston

yes. Yes they are supposed to show us!!!

[Da Bull]

Yes, because when people do innovative engine mods they are supposed to show you everything they did before they have even completed the project themselves :rolleyes:. If you are looking for a good read, I'll post a link of a 500hp NA k24 that was completed by the same people that are the brains behind this venture (I think). Curious to see if they can make ~250-300 hp with a reasonable amount of added cost on these engines. The k24 is a similar engine to the BF150 to my understanding.

http://blog.wiseco.com/the-500-horsepower-naturally-aspirated-k24-engine-by-4piston


Thanks. With the coming of the four strokes like it or not we have to learn about them.

[powerabout]

Thanks. With the coming of the four strokes like it or not we have to learn about them.
at least we have e-tecs to tow them onto the plane

[Capt.Insane-o]

I spent a day with one towing a skier and a couple tubers. It has no low end, or low mid range torque. Like couldn't pull a limp dick out of a lard bucket. When they start getting around that part, i'll be interested.

[Instigator]

Noticing the Allison in the article... A quote from Darris from another article

We tested the Super Sport with a 90 HP Honda when it debuted and it ran 70 MPH, but the issue with that engine was it was heavy and sluggish.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wavetowave.com/home/2018/5/29/10-questions-with-darris-allison%3fformat=amp

I remember that article and was surprised they test w/those motors.
The good was the fuel economy ;)

[JrCRXHF]

I spent a day with one towing a skier and a couple tubers. It has no low end, or low mid range torque. Like couldn't pull a limp dick out of a lard bucket. When they start getting around that part, i'll be interested.

I think we just gotta hook a 50 shot to that thing.

[Da Bull]

I spent a day with one towing a skier and a couple tubers. It has no low end, or low mid range torque. Like couldn't pull a limp dick out of a lard bucket. When they start getting around that part, i'll be interested.

Your right. I remember that pulling test between a 150hp four stroke something and a 150hp OMC and the two stroke OMC pulled the four stroke backwards till it sunk it.
Maybe they need a transmission.

[powerabout]

Your right. I remember that pulling test between a 150hp four stroke something and a 150hp OMC and the two stroke OMC pulled the four stroke backwards till it sunk it.
Maybe they need a transmission.
worlds biggest ships are 2 strokes, no gearbox needed just like an e-tec

[Capt.Insane-o]

Compression will no doubt help,but getting the rpm flash of a 2 stroke v6 isnt going to come easy

[home made tunnel]

Until we get the electric motors. Lets get Tesla to make an outboard motor! Just store the battery in the boat where the gas tank would go.

[WavetoWave]

Yes, because when people do innovative engine mods they are supposed to show you everything they did before they have even completed the project themselves :rolleyes:. If you are looking for a good read, I'll post a link of a 500hp NA k24 that was completed by the same people that are the brains behind this venture (I think). Curious to see if they can make ~250-300 hp with a reasonable amount of added cost on these engines. The k24 is a similar engine to the BF150 to my understanding.

http://blog.wiseco.com/the-500-horsepower-naturally-aspirated-k24-engine-by-4piston

Yes, the goal is 225 to 250 at the prop, revving to 8,000 RPM. The K24 in the BF 150 is a slightly different version. And Yes, it is Luke, from 4Piston Racing doing the work.

[cooperider]

I just got my BF 150 shop manual in the mail today. The specialty tools alone might break me.

[WavetoWave]

The Project BF 150 made over 300 HP on the dyno. Will get some details soon.

[oldschoolltv]

I was wondering if someone would do this on the smaller engines to where we can have some hope for the future.

[FMP]

Pump gas CR ?

[HydroSkreamin]

The Project BF 150 made over 300 HP on the dyno. Will get some details soon.

Is that crank or propshaft? Nice job, either way!

[WavetoWave]

Is that crank or propshaft? Nice job, either way!

Crank, enough over 300 that should be pretty close to 300 Prop.

[AZMIDLYF]

Where(RPM) does it make that?

[powerabout]

Where(RPM) does it make that?
remembering the v8 hyabusa that had to get towed onto the plane are we?

[Trent Ashby]

I think this is a cool project, however there is to much negativity involved with the nah sayers.
If no one ever tried anything we would be stuck with the same ol, or nothing at all.

[AZMIDLYF]

Agree 100% with you Mr. Ashby. No negativity on my part I assure you. I just get curious for more details when the envelopes are pushed. :cheers:

[WavetoWave]

Agree 100% with you Mr. Ashby. No negativity on my part I assure you. I just get curious for more details when the envelopes are pushed. :cheers:

I haven't noticed any real negativity yet. It's definitely an experiment, but so far so good. Could be an economical alternative, using new technology for 225 HP + engines.

This engine makes more power in the higher RPM. Goal was to have it around 8,000 RPM. I think this works well on lighter fast hulls.

[oldschoolltv]

8000 with a 26 would be real nice :)

[cooperider]

The Project BF 150 made over 300 HP on the dyno. Will get some details soon. You know this is what I wanted to hear.

[Capt.Insane-o]

26? Still has a sh*t gear ratio. Wanna see the dyno graph! :)

[oldschoolltv]

I guess I missed it what is the lower units gear ratio?

[powerabout]

26? Still has a sh*t gear ratio. Wanna see the dyno graph! :)
the stock and modded graphs layed over each other, would settle a few arguments

[oldschoolltv]

Looks like

Gear Ratio
2.14:1

I guess a 28 at 8000 rpms or 30p

[Iowafshr]

It's SEMA, do we have any updates?

[Greg G]

The Project BF 150 made over 300 HP on the dyno. Will get some details soon.

I'd want to see the dyno print on that.

[Radiant]

A dyno graph would be nice to see. I imagine there is not much torque. Which is ok for our light boats. I don't doubt it makes the 300 hp, those guys can crank some serious hp out of these motors

[FMP]

13.5-14.5:1 cr?

[powerabout]

13.5-14.5:1 cr?
21.5:1 running on diesel, to get the low speed torque back

PS 300HP 2.0 ltr was F1 in 1980 via a 2 stroke, so 40 years later how are we looking, just saying?

[FMP]

We'll see what all those cams and valves can do

[AZMIDLYF]

Would like to also know how much of the factory intake/fuel system is retained to bring these numbers. Is it running E85? 4P is top notch in this segment and one of their motors just set a N/A world record at the Import/Domestic drags this weekend. Will you also do a $$ break down of how you got these results?

[AZMIDLYF]

This would sound pretty sweet flying down the river...


https://www.facebook.com/4Piston/videos/494178551095606/

[Capt.Insane-o]

Rice a Roni!
..I'll pass on the sound....lol. Rather have the honda quietness than the greasy duck fart can sound.

[AZMIDLYF]

422340

[FMP]

Ow, my eyes!

[home made tunnel]

lmao that dude on the bike!!!

But 300 is impressive! Would love to see the details. What a tease.

[Da Bull]

300hp? Looks like it`s time to line it up against a Merc 300 drag. Just kidding of coarse. Not even Mercs 300PM, 300X, 300XS or the new 4 stroke 300 V-8 can run with a stock 300 drag.

[AZMIDLYF]

This is for you Capt. Insane-o:


https://www.facebook.com/danchudy/videos/10216797115547766/

[AZMIDLYF]

What's the latest with this project?

[WavetoWave]

Sorry for the delay. Just spoke with 4Piston. Initial dyno was with a race style intake that would need to be modified to fit in the cowl. Next test will be with the marine intake, will lose some power for sure.

ECU and wiring harness is being figured out, to keep the cost reasonable. Good news, the actual weight of the engine is what Honda says, at 480 Lbs, approx. The cowling is a surprising 14 lbs.

I think the best test boat would be an STV or something?

http://i66.tinypic.com/j9a39f.png

[FMP]

21.5:1 running on diesel, to get the low speed torque back

ps 300hp 2.0 ltr was f1 in 1980 via a 2 stroke, so 40 years later how are we looking, just saying?

cr?

[home made tunnel]

https://youtu.be/qym9RACs76I


I think the trial run should be on an 18' Boston Whaler center console ! ! ! It could be like that guy from Australia that put a single 400R on his 25' fishing Mako style boat.

[Da Bull]

If you listen closely he said the hull was popped from an Apache race boat then they built their own deck. Not a bad idea. The Apache is a race proven winner.

[AZMIDLYF]

425047

[oldschoolltv]

Looks great, I wonder how well the Honda gearcase will hold up with a cone and surfaced.

[Whaaaaat]

Any weights on powerhead?

[AZMIDLYF]

Any weights on powerhead?

The 150 Honda ranges from 478 - 485 Lbs if that is what you were asking.

[FMP]

These guys did 300 with a two litre
http://www.theoldone.com/default.asp
Milestones
http://www.theoldone.com/about/default.asp

[Whaaaaat]

The 150 Honda ranges from 478 - 485 Lbs if that is what you were asking.

Was interested if they weighed the powerhead separate

[JrCRXHF]

Endyn has always done beautiful work on Honda heads.

[Iowafshr]

It's been about a month any updates?

[home made tunnel]

So many "Secrets" with this project. :rolleyes:

[Merc 2.5]

So many "Secrets" with this project. :rolleyes:

Hell I just wanna see sum #s already ,or maybe it wasn't what it was suppose to be?:nonod:

[WavetoWave]

Hell I just wanna see sum #s already ,or maybe it wasn't what it was suppose to be?:nonod:

Numbers were very good. Waiting to wrap up a few things, I have an Activator project I need to finish first. Then will look at a boat for the BF-150. The one in the photos was a "donor" and so will build a new one, based on that one.

[WavetoWave]

I"ll check with the guys if they did. The Honda is pretty true to reported weight. 480 lbs.

[AZMIDLYF]

I"ll check with the guys if they did. The Honda is pretty true to reported weight. 480 lbs.

He was asking for a powerhead only weight, not including the mid or gearcase.

[home made tunnel]

The Project BF 150 made over 300 HP on the dyno. Will get some details soon.

3 months later - still no dyno sheet? Sad.
We're all Curious what was changed/modified from stock to make double the power on a dyno.

[Capt.Insane-o]

:rolleyes:

not much of a wonder why things aren't posted here.

[WavetoWave]

3 months later - still no dyno sheet? Sad.
We're all Curious what was changed/modified from stock to make double the power on a dyno.

All the changes were in the original article. And the dyno is actually tricky, because it had to be adapted, it's quite a bit different than its auto sibling. I'm anticipating getting back to this really soon. I just have tons on my plate right now.

"The block is sleeved with coated Ramey Racing sleeves. Large bore pistons from Wiseco. Saenz Performance connecting rods. ECU by MoTec. And, a custom 4 Piston Racing cylinder head for this application."

[AZMIDLYF]

430002

[home made tunnel]

Sweet ! Red valve cover, black motor.
Did you get any performance numbers with the marine intake on it yet?

[powerabout]

make it into a v8, that would be way cool....

[WavetoWave]

Sweet ! Red valve cover, black motor.
Did you get any performance numbers with the marine intake on it yet?

Nope. Didn't test with stock intake. Would significantly reduce power. But, I think a budget kit that would turn it into a 225+ HP engine would be really attractive. The fact it can make more power is cool, but the reality is it gets expensive really fast.

[FMP]

Cr:?

[cooperider]

Any updates? I've been shopping for the used Honda/Tohatsu 150's just because of this.

[WavetoWave]

This is almost identical to the marine engine. This makes 335 HP / 220 TQ. 12.5:1, with 93 pump gas, 4P Pro 156v2 CNC cylinder head with RR3 cams, Skunk2 Alpha header. With a stock intake, obviously the numbers would drop.


https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/46937100714_e3a20f886e_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2evEUM9)

[WavetoWave]

Any updates? I've been shopping for the used Honda/Tohatsu 150's just because of this.

Ya, the benefit of the Honda is the aftermarket parts available from the automotive world. The downside is the gearcase and a few other things. You would really need to adapt a better gearcase on to the BF150 to make it work.

[home made tunnel]

Ya, the benefit of the Honda is the aftermarket parts available from the automotive world. The downside is the gearcase and a few other things. You would really need to adapt a better gearcase on to the BF150 to make it work.

Are you saying you gave up on the project? We're all still waiting to see the results of the marine engine - - - not similar products lol.

[powerabout]

waiting for the 10 speed gearbox to get it on the plane...

[sick_nick]

waiting for the 10 speed gearbox to get it on the plane...
those torque numbers are weak!

[flabum1017]

That would be what, 8,000RPM to get that horsepower with that torque?

[WavetoWave]

Are you saying you gave up on the project? We're all still waiting to see the results of the marine engine - - - not similar products lol.

It's exactly the same. Lol. Can't put the marine engine on that dyno. Like I said before, It was just a fun side project, it worked the way we wanted. Adding a lower, and testing is much more involved.

[WavetoWave]

those torque numbers are weak!

I wouldn't say it's weak at all, it's a small engine. Kind of amazing how much power it can make actually.

[powerabout]

I wouldn't say it's weak at all, it's a small engine. Kind of amazing how much power it can make actually. A stock 300 XS would put out about 280 Lbs at 5,000 RPM as a comparison.
you need to look at the torque way lower in the rpm range.
There have been 2 4 stroke experiments in F1, in case the 2s ever goes away?
A v8 hyabusa and a custom v6 nissan race engine.
Both need to get towed onto the plane to compete, or have 10 speed geaerbox, lol.
From a dock start the 2s nearly lapped them in the first lap yet at 8000 ish they have the similar numbers I would guess?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2ZWqI8Xnfs
https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?227193-Caudwell-Marine-s-Outboard-REPLACEMENT-Testing-now-in-a-F1-Tunnel-Hull

[WavetoWave]

you need to look at the torque way lower in the rpm range.
There have been 2 4 stroke experiments in F1, in case the 2s ever goes away?
A v8 hyabusa and a custom v6 nissan race engine.
Both need to get towed onto the plane to compete, or have 10 speed geaerbox, lol.
From a dock start the 2s nearly lapped them in the first lap yet at 8000 ish they have the similar numbers I would guess?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2ZWqI8Xnfs
https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?227193-Caudwell-Marine-s-Outboard-REPLACEMENT-Testing-now-in-a-F1-Tunnel-Hull

Wow, those must have been poorly executed. Why would they bother? In the case of the BF-150, just stock it has plenty of torque to get a small sport boat on plane, no problem. This was a fun experiment with off the shelf parts. Definitely not trying to be an ultralight race engine. Not even sure how that would come up.

[FMP]

Everyone on the tube

[baja200merk]

2.3L a 400r is only 2.6L and there are claims of 480hp/7800rpm with a tune.

[powerabout]

2.3L a 400r is only 2.6L and there are claims of 480hp/7800rpm with a tune.

4slug can compete with 2s when its boosted

[JCSmile]

2.3L a 400r is only 2.6L and there are claims of 480hp/7800rpm with a tune.
Horsepower to weight is more important to 90% of the boats on this site than horsepower to displacement. I wonder how many horse the 400r would be with no blower.

[WavetoWave]

Horsepower to weight is more important to 90% of the boats on this site than horsepower to displacement. I wonder how many horse the 400r would be with no blower.

Agree. That's why I like the 4 cyl four strokes so much. Not the Honda, but the Merc and Yamaha are nice.

[FMP]

Horsepower to weight is more important to 90% of the boats on this site than horsepower to displacement. I wonder how many horse the 400r would be with no blower.

With 12.5:1 CR and cams not for a blower motor quite a bit.