Chrysler racing 150

[Poky]

I learned something the other day from my dad. The racing 150 Chrysler ran four carbs vs the two on a 140. For the factory race effort, when they set the record for single and twin outboard they ran fuel injection on the 150.

[RogerH]

Poky, Not sure if the Chrysler factory effort had a "formal" 4-carb setup, but a few were made by using two sets of 3-carb manifolds. Here's some pictures of one I had several years ago. Note the welding on the intake and the two 3-carb manifolds with a top cut off and a bottom cut off. Never got to finish this motor before selling the whole load. The 150 had a very hi compression head as well and some huge ports!

410067

410068

410069

[Mark75H]

Correct, the 4 carb and fuelie motors were not factory produced or factory options, they were the work of privateers

The 150 was a 2 carb motor

[Poky]

My dad was chief engineer at Chrysler marine, granted, he's old, but he seemed to think the factory race boats all ran 4 carbs. I had asked him why the 140 ran just two carbs. he made it sound like the R&D guys had 4 carb manifolds and injection. I don't get him to talk about the old days every often. Sounds like they had a lot of fun messing with the Mercury and OMC guys back in the day.

[FMP]

Those transfers and scallops weren't factory. That head as well. If that's a small bore 150 which they all are, that head is a 105 or certain year 115. Blue print diagrams I posted on the racing thread.
Some factory guys did build four carb r&d set ups in the 70s. Talked to one a few years back who was right in the basement skunkworks, claimed the TC four carb to be a top end screamer, most built four carbs are smaller triple carb WB as shown above
They did offer the 150 into 1976 with 195psi for all years.
Poky your Dad was right in there in that time , If I remember you saying that?

[FMP]

But FI, Algon? Just mentioned that the other day with another member from TX.
Those transfers/ scallops above, a member from FL mentioned those a while back, worked well he said, can't remember his name.
Bill does his transfers like that, not sure he scallops.
Might still try that on an F5
http://www.powercatboat.com/ODBR/Twister2/drag%20boats%20%2814%29.jpg

http://www.powercatboat.com/ODBR/Twister2/CIMG1424.jpg
Gary Ferguson Mechanical FI

[Poky]

My dad is Jerry Pok, he work at West Bend Marine, and then moved over to Chrysler Marine, I'm not sure when he started, but he got out around 79 ish when it started to end. I know he said the 150's shook the walls of the dyno room when they where doing testing. he talk about the V6 too. he was real proud of that engine, too bad they killed it

[vintage v4]

My dad is Jerry Pok, he work at West Bend Marine, and then moved over to Chrysler Marine, I'm not sure when he started, but he got out around 79 ish when it started to end. I know he said the 150's shook the walls of the dyno room when they where doing testing. he talk about the V6 too. he was real proud of that engine, too bad they killed it

My dad ran against the a good number of the Chrysler and Force racers in Mod 100 and Formula 100 classes. Most of the Chryslers were from Minnesota and the Force guys were from Texas. The only one I remember that had a good running 4 carb was Randy Pierson from MN. I remember the Texas force guys telling me the 4 carb they has wasn't as fast as the 2 carb motors they were running.
I have a 4 carb motor built by Joe Michellini, but I haven't run it yet.

[FUJIMO]

My dad is Jerry Pok, he work at West Bend Marine, and then moved over to Chrysler Marine, I'm not sure when he started, but he got out around 79 ish when it started to end. I know he said the 150's shook the walls of the dyno room when they where doing testing. he talk about the V6 too. he was real proud of that engine, too bad they killed it
Would be great to hear all about the V-6 development. Year prototyping started, horsepower(s), Mercury V-6 comparability, quantity produced, displacement, etc. thanks

[FMP]

I was told first example was at the dealer show Nov 77. Development must have been a minimum year earlier. All loopers, first were vertical reeds as show in the Hartford museum pics. Last example were horizontal with 220+ hp, going by memory from what was told.
One summer on I believe Fox lake , maybe 78/79 a later example was running very strong. Witnessed by an OMC guy , same person who said Nov 77 for the show. Claims that motor beat up on a lot of Merc and OMC , to the extent that he wasn't sure if anyone was faster and was truly surprised by its performance. He claimed Baker was testing it as well.
A couple more examples are still around in addition to the Hartford piece.
Speculation is Chrysler built a straight five but abandoned the common chest and 72* pin spacing not getting into the manifold needed for proper pairing that Force later developed with the F5 and then Chrysler started the V6 program.

Randy was in the R&D said the four carb TC version was the runner in the 4 cylinder. But these weren't stackers , inline chest to tuner so four carbs enable more exact cylinder carb jetting since ex pairing lengths differ as does scavenging lengths. Stackers having 180* pin spacing on the sharing pairs for each stack have equal scavenging time and lengths resulting in the single TC carb per pair with jetting that satisfies. Build a TC four carb front as Randy mentioned and outflow the WB four carb just as a two carb setup does between the 105 some years 115 and 135/140/150. Top end breathing

He was also working on the powerflow lu with prop exhaust, Force later in 92+ used a dual exhaust with snout and prop powerflow on the F5 from the original snout ex. But they moved the water intakes pickups from side bullet inline with propshaft to above the gears traditional placement.

I remember the guys at the local Chrysler dealer having a big smile when the V6 abilities came to talk. Finally they said, proudly. At least one of those V6 runners made the dealer circuit for limited time, select dealers. The other situation may be the V6 was sent here Ontario to the Barrie production plant for reasons of future assembly and it was simply shared among a few dealers here during its way. I'm certain it would have received a workout. Heck who wouldn't rig it to a Conqueror or center console 20' or other CHRYSLER boat made in Barrie Ontario for a trial on Simcoe or L Ontario or GBay!

It's possible they went outside for additional help, possibly U of W or elsewhere and couple of knowledged individuals know to excel in outboard development helped the program.

It would be something if someone had home footage of it running.

[Poky]

I just remember him talking that they took the best from the Mercury and the OMC. I'll see what else I can get out of him.

[Poky]

I talked with my dad over the weekend, First dyno pulls on the V6, made 175 hp. it was designed with 200 hp as the goal. I didn't get how far they got toward their goal. there where three sand cast engines made, one was for dyno work only. He said there might of been enough parts to build more. but as far as the project went, there was only three V6 engines made.

[FMP]

That's good stuff, two accounted for , three is MIA or hidden, maybe a forth also in parts. When the factory was closed up , a bunch of parts were taken to put the Museum piece in display shape, so I was told. Maybe that is the dyno mule, lots of paint scratches on some places, lower cowl etc.

[Poky]

After all this time, he was still excited about it

[FMP]

You cannot get this stuff out of your system, it's in your blood.

[vintage v4]

But FI, Algon? Just mentioned that the other day with another member from TX.
Those transfers/ scallops above, a member from FL mentioned those a while back, worked well he said, can't remember his name.
Bill does his transfers like that, not sure he scallops.
Might still try that on an F5
http://www.powercatboat.com/ODBR/Twister2/drag%20boats%20%2814%29.jpg

http://www.powercatboat.com/ODBR/Twister2/CIMG1424.jpg
Gary Ferguson Mechanical FI
I doubt the scallops on a Chrysler have any benefit, needed on OMCs because the v4 configuration causes a restriction. Chryslers are not the same.
I have stopped doing that operation on OMCs because it weakens the piston, causes the skirt to collapse over time. Reliability cost worth the performance increase. Makes no sense on Chryslers because they are straight. Just my opinion.

[FMP]

Going to agree with you on that for the matching to the lower cylinder/ block. The skirt scallop probably does help in the loading of transfer area right at the ports as the piston turns to downstroke and the scallop is functioning through the ports. Later F4 sportjet pistons had a hole not scallop that aligned with ports. Reasons were varied from lighter to low rpm help for the jet, to balance. L6 Merc configuration seemed to benefit? The bridges removed and area increase as above helps.

The longer stroke bigger bore 103ci when worked to accept stacker pipes responds to transfer and exhaust increase better than just the original port height which is practically identical to the shorter stroke small bore 96ci original 150 stacker. When raising the duration to match the longer stroke the 103ci seemed to get real happy with the stacks and 175/180 psi according to Bill E&T. The upper range of 195psi of the 150 96ci stacker should punch pretty good.

LA sleeve has a large o.d replacement sleeve for the 103ci that can be bored to 3.5" from 3.375 if someone was interested in doing custom piston, work the chamber etc

[Poky]

I was told the hole in the piston was for the 55 hp to get it to idle better and didn't do anything for the bigger engines that used the same piston.

how does the 103 ci respond to NOS? and did they change the three cylinder manifold thru the years? I want to make a 4 carb manifold for my 140 hp engine.

[FMP]

The 55/60 with the trick porting and small powerflow lu a cool engine 78/79 etc. Also had a special tuner.

NOS would need a proper build, forged Wisecos, more clearance, jetting, extra fuel maybe?

If you build a four carb, TC adapters need to be used , building a WB ?

[Poky]

TC adapter? I have my dads old race WB down stairs. it has a Al Pagel lower unit on it, I also have his Evenrude with open exhaust ports.

[FMP]

Sure the triples never had TC carbs , so they used WB adapters. You need to cut the mounting surface off the TC adapter and WB adapter, then weld the TC mount to the WB adapter from the triples.
WB isn't west bend, it's a Tillotson series as is TC. TC are larger .
Why bother with all that work putting the two triple fronts together and then use small carbs? Go the extra step and use TC.

[Poky]

ok, that makes more sense. which engines did the TC come on? I have a older 70 hp and a 90 hp charger, do they have different carbs too? My outboards are behind everything in storage, so its not that easy to just look. I just have a 115 blue charger at the house.

[FMP]

No triples but maybe someone at the r&d made some once for testing? I have only seen one pic of a TC triple, that was an inboard mounted with ex pipe home built, not Force. Maybe I can find it back.
TC , mid to higher hp fours. Some year 115hp 78/79, doesn't matter if Charger. 80/81+ they went back to WB.

[Instigator]

Why not just use someone else's carbs?

There are bazillions of 1 3/8" OMC 2 barrels and also Mercs. Cheap too.

An intake for four two barrels would be trick.

Love seeing the hot rod Chrydlers.

[powerabout]

ccc front on a v4...
Its on my list

[FMP]

Someone must have built one with bigger carbs just replacing the two TC or WB?
I know of a 50mm that bolts right up but throttle had to be moved side to a side, haven't tried it yet.

[FMP]

that mod triple with TC, mounted to stay level when installed in hull

[Poky]

I went thru the old OMC R&D down in Waukegan, they had a V6 sitting on its side mounted to a jet drive in a sprint boat, there was also a wall of V8's , that was a month before they went bankrupt, glad I didn't take the job

[FMP]

Maybe late one night you could have backed the truck up to put things in storage:eek::D:cool: no don't do that

[Instigator]

I went thru the old OMC R&D down in Waukegan, they had a V6 sitting on its side mounted to a jet drive in a sprint boat, there was also a wall of V8's , that was a month before they went bankrupt, glad I didn't take the job
I drove through the old site a few days ago.

[powerabout]

Maybe late one night you could have backed the truck up to put things in storage:eek::D:cool: no don't do that
I heard the F1 V8 race truck went to the scrap yard full of engines and parts..

[Poky]

I haven't been down sence my interview. is it all closed down now or are they still using some of it? I did a class in their new building. just not the same. I never got to see the Chrysler R&D, too young. Does anyone know wht happen to the OMC stern drive. When I was there, it was in a closed off area that only a few where allow into.

[FMP]

That's all a shame.
Was just looking, visualizing a four cyl mid 70s cowl the good looking ones, cut and sectioned stretched to fit over a F5 , white semi tower actually probably not much height difference, need to measure.

[powerabout]

Sterndrive business was with volvo before 2000 ( 93 ish) finally bought out in 98

[vintage v4]

Poky, The OMC Stern drive Engineering facility was on Central Ave in Waukegan, near Green Bay Rd and Washington St., that's still there with some other business occupying it. All of the lakefront buildings are gone years now. I worked at both facilities, a total of about 9 years. It was eerie to go down to the lakefront the first time with everything at ground level.

I remember the V6 lay down Jet unit. John Daniels built that and he did a nice job. I got to drive it a few times, it was a blast.

[Poky]

I wish I could of worked there, definitely more excited than working at brigs and stratton.

[FMP]

F5, clamp to top cowl 31 1/16". Must be a bit less than a L6?

[Mark75H]

Might not be, the bore is significantly bigger

[FMP]

F5, two versions, 89-90 3.3125" , 91-94 3.373". Same block although I've measured more duration on Ex for big bore. How high is the L6 clamp up?