1993 Johnson 140s / F233

[reelbrothers]

Hi all, bought a 73' Formula 233 that was converted to outboards, twin 140s. Ran few times on lake , it's got 15x17 props so with the 2.25 ratio top end was upper 30s at 5500, I figure many of you would know the 233 aND was wondering how much prop you think I can go with and what the sweet spot for RPM at cruise these motors like? I'd really like to be able to get a low/mid 30s cruise for running out to fishing grounds. The Hr meters only show 550 port / 630 Stbd and compression is checking 120 across the board.
I'm going to go through carbs over next few weeks, anything else other than impellers I should address. Already replaced them and therms.
Thanks.

[powerabout]

large gearcases?
seems very slow, how deep are they?
years ago I rigged a few ( aussie built ones) with xflow 140's, they easily ran into the high 40's I seem to remember?
( they went great with 2 x 235's)

[Instigator]

Agreed w/powerabout.

Guessing motors are buried balls deep.

25" motors?

Pixs of motors/transom would be good.

Sounds like a cool rig.

[reelbrothers]

I'll snap a pic from Trans view to give you an idea of mount height. 398335It does have Tabs, however switch was not working at the time, ive since replaced.
Thanks398335

[powerabout]

we need to see a photo on the trailer so we can see the engine height in relation to the hull bottom

[reelbrothers]

Not sure this angle gives you the view, let me know.
Ive ordered a set of Carson Sport reeds,
398403398403

[Instigator]

Not sure this angle gives you the view, let me know.
Ive ordered a set of Carson Sport reeds,
398403398403

Get us a similar shot but of just one motor.

From straight behind it, looking forward, at a height even to center of propshaft.

[phillnjack]

I would put both motors on jack plates and then take them up 5 inches.
the pod they are on is way too deep at its transom.

also this is a very heavy boat, but would of thought 40 to 45 is possible with motors raised. 30 is definitely not right.

[FMP]

How much set back, two different props?

[reelbrothers]

I would put both motors on jack plates and then take them up 5 inches.
the pod they are on is way too deep at its transom.

also this is a very heavy boat, but would of thought 40 to 45 is possible with motors raised. 30 is definitely not right.

Oh I know it's heavy! Correction if needed, I saw 37 38 top but ki da expected what you said of 43 44...

[reelbrothers]

How much set back, two different props?

I think it's 29 setback. CR engines but props are same pitch

[phillnjack]

its 29 setback yeah, but look how the cav plates are compared to the transom of the pod ?
the motors need be away from them and up a bit .. you have to think of that big pod like a transom, if just taking the motor up at the transom with no setback you will lose prop bite, take it back and into free water and it will bite better.
probably find the pod was designed for 20 inch mids !!!!

[FMP]

Same number pitch but looks like different props so probably not the same pitch, different shape blades.
Sure your throttles are wide open , everything in sync etc. 280hp with 2.3:1 gears and a 17" maybe should be turning more? Must be a real heavy boat.

[reelbrothers]

Same number pitch but looks like different props so probably not the same pitch, different shape blades.
Sure your throttles are wide open , everything in sync etc. 280hp with 2.3:1 gears and a 17" maybe should be turning more? Must be a real heavy boat.

Yea I'm gonna go ahead with new Reeds, rebuild Carbs new head gaskets ect. Guy who did original rework was not too concerned in many areas left 24oz roven mat ends exposed no fairing anywhere ,wiring was a rats nest, so we ran it few times to get feel for mechanicals then I gutted it! I will probably at this point not move bracket if that's the issue,just get motors running to their best until I decide to put a single 250 Etec on her.I just ki da know something is amiss since lots of these are done with twin 150s and running top end at 50 so thought 45 would be attainable with the 140s.
Thanks for the input.

[FMP]

You mean twin 250Etecs:D

[Instigator]

Couple of observations.

A. The bracket is off a bigger, deeper boat.
Thats why the flotation box is so big/low.

2. Look at height of cavitation plates compared to bottom, regardless of bracket.
The motors look close (height) in that shot (why I asked for a straight shot of one motor).
You raise them 5" the damn thing won't even plane.

3. Under way, the water flowing off the bottom/bracket will flow up and into props.

4. I had a near identical boat w/a 260 hp I/o and it ran 43 w/an aluminum prop.

I would think mid 40's is a reasonable expectation for your rig once correct.

Based on existing condition of boat/rigging, I'd expect everything to be wrong and need redone.

Doing a "link and sync" on both motors is great start.

Also, go online and find a prop calculator and get used to using it. If the bracket is obstructing flow to the props, your slip #s will be through the roof.

A single 250 would make a killer rig and probably out run what you have, even once dialed.

Tons of similar conversions in Fla.

[reelbrothers]

Couple of observations.

A. The bracket is off a bigger, deeper boat.
Thats why the flotation box is so big/low.

2. Look at height of cavitation plates compared to bottom, regardless of bracket.
The motors look close (height) in that shot (why I asked for a straight shot of one motor).
You raise them 5" the damn thing won't even plane.

3. Under way, the water flowing off the bottom/bracket will flow up and into props.

4. I had a near identical boat w/a 260 hp I/o and it ran 43 w/an aluminum prop.

I would think mid 40's is a reasonable expectation for your rig once correct.

Based on existing condition of boat/rigging, I'd expect everything to be wrong and need redone.

Doing a "link and sync" on both motors is great start.

Also, go online and find a prop calculator and get used to using it. If the bracket is obstructing flow to the props, your slip #s will be through the roof.

A single 250 would make a killer rig and probably out run what you have, even once dialed.

Tons of similar conversions in Fla.

Thanks Instigator, I certainly value your input and appreciate the feedback, kinda where I thought it would be , guess when you buy someone else's problem its to be expected! I will make the best of it , as long as they are reliable guess i will fish!
If not asking too much, ive read a dozen post on Cooling issues on these things, I had SAFE kick in on STBD engine and it even runs up to 160 at idle before slowly coming back to 145 ish , are there tricks to those darn "Theristors" ive replaced everything in the cooling and pump just wanted to ask so I can address while im working on them.

Thanks.

[reelbrothers]

Engines

398539

[reelbrothers]

Engines

398539

Looks that the Cav plates are almost inline with the bottom of the bracket

[FMP]

With over 30" from hull to blades that fresh water rise off the hull could probably let you raise them a bit more with the right props keeping an eye on water pressure. If you're running in heavy seas, chop most of the time slip might annoy you.

[Instigator]

On the heating issues, under way or at idle too?

The flow/turbulence from the bracket is fairly predictable on plane but not so much at idle.
If your impellers are good, the bracket may be aerating the intake water??
leave it on trailer in water, idle in gear, if it runs cool it's likely the bracket.
If they run hot, it's motors.

Your guess on cav plates is what I thought from previous pixs.
Put a 4' level on the bottom of the plate and see where level hits bracket and bottom.
Post a pic of it.

Also agree with FMP on height. If it planes easily as is, and your getting good water pressure, I'd go up.

Props will become a huge factor at that point. Stock aluminum props will cavitate as soon as you get plates close to surface andcedpecislly in turns.

Id get some base line #s where ur at, once you establish all of above, then go prop shopping.

OMC Rakers, are IMO, some of the best through hub exhaust props in the world.
Theyve been out for decades too so used are prevelant and cheap.
The LH for one of those motors will be a bit more work to find.

I just sold a 21' Checkmate O/B that I had the propshaft even w/the bottom and the damn thing jumped on plane w/o slipping.

Figure out your motors first then u may have something.

[reelbrothers]

On the heating issues, under way or at idle too?

The flow/turbulence from the bracket is fairly predictable on plane but not so much at idle.
If your impellers are good, the bracket may be aerating the intake water??
leave it on trailer in water, idle in gear, if it runs cool it's likely the bracket.
If they run hot, it's motors.

Your guess on cav plates is what I thought from previous pixs.
Put a 4' level on the bottom of the plate and see where level hits bracket and bottom.
Post a pic of it.

Also agree with FMP on height. If it planes easily as is, and your getting good water pressure, I'd go up.

Props will become a huge factor at that point. Stock aluminum props will cavitate as soon as you get plates close to surface andcedpecislly in turns.

Id get some base line #s where ur at, once you establish all of above, then go prop shopping.

OMC Rakers, are IMO, some of the best through hub exhaust props in the world.
Theyve been out for decades too so used are prevelant and cheap.
The LH for one of those motors will be a bit more work to find.

I just sold a 21' Checkmate O/B that I had the propshaft even w/the bottom and the damn thing jumped on plane w/o slipping.

Figure out your motors first then u may have something.

cool. best at this point to concentrate on getting motors right and get a baseline like you said, then start fine tuning. I knew after just a few trial runs something was amiss, I'd been on here reading many times and saw you guys know your stuff so wanted to reach out, really appreciate everyone's help and patience.

[powerabout]

Bracket holding the engines too far back is difficult to overcome when its not a lightweight flyer

[flabum1017]

Never seen a bracket that tall. is the bracket completely out of the water at speed?

[FMP]

Read second hand off the web , 73 brochure F233 with twin 165s about 3800lbs, I would have guessed more.

[phillnjack]

those engines are way too deep in the water being that far back.
the box they are sitting on is far too low in the water.

the only good thing about that box is that its giving flotation, because if it did not those engine cover would be under water at rest.

these boats run with the arse down a bot too, making it even worse..........
go look at these when they have twin outboard and you will see 15 to 20 inch set backs with short mids and the jack plates real high.
personally I would get shot of that pod and get a proper bracket made for the job, then look for a couple of nice jack plates.

look at the pics to see how high the motors are, shafts are 25 inch so the same as yours.
note also there is no second transom box to stop the water getting to the motors !!!
this is a f233 hull just the centre consol version ( slightly heavier boat than yours )

just my opinion by the way

[powerabout]

looks a bit short for 23'

[flabum1017]

looks a bit short for 23'


Does not matter, he is showing where the motors should be in relation to the hull. Reelbrothersmotors are way too deep and I suspect the bracket is in the water at speed creating drag...........

[FMP]

That big parachute I mean hard top could be grabbing air if the angle isn't right at running speed.

[flabum1017]

That big parachute I mean hard top could be grabbing air if the angle isn't right at running speed.
Friend has a 26 Concept..... runs faster with the bimini top up in windy conditions..... helps lift the boat out of the water..... we have seen 75 MPH on a 68 MPH boat

[FMP]

I can see that but if it's angled too high it could do the opposite. This boat run bow high ? I'd try it without , can't see it getting slower.

[reelbrothers]

it squats on the anchor for sure, I would say it's designed to run bow high really gotta go full down trim to bury bow into chop.

[FMP]

Maybe adjust it down to the front or take just the top off to try. If you pick up a couple mph with it off it probably just the weight?

[powerabout]

Id be looking to get some brackets made moving the engines as close to the transom as possible.

[reelbrothers]

Id be looking to get some brackets made moving the engines as close to the transom as possible.

future plan is to go to single 250 Etec, new bracket wasn't in plan but guess it is now, seems to be a general concensus ...

[powerabout]

Never used or seen one with single outboard?

Shop around you might find a pair of single engine brackets.
Tilt your engine right up and try to determine where the cowl will end up re the transom so you know how much setback you need.
Are you using it in sheltered water or offshore?

[FMP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tfI5CykYbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sAMbZAff7w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Z4sOuEotc

[oldschoolnc]

If nothing else, raise the motors to the top bolt hole...... Just a thought.

[phillnjack]

and those 2 Suzuki's on the boat are just 20 inch mids, the original posters boat has 25 inch mids !!!
and his bracket is lower than the one above .. weird bracket on his boat

[FMP]

I'll call the guy with the resto and tell him to change it for us

[reelbrothers]

and those 2 Suzuki's on the boat are just 20 inch mids, the original posters boat has 25 inch mids !!!
and his bracket is lower than the one above .. weird bracket on his boat
I ththink the guys who originally did the conversion were buying whatever they could find on ebay ect...not too sure they thought things out ....

I will make her right...

[FMP]

Interior is mint, lower mounted bracket but shorter mids. By the looks of it trimmed up , lowers probably aren't too low. I like it

[phillnjack]

I think a lot of you are seeing the setback box in the wrong place.
I have looked at this and put a GREEN line where it fixes to transom and a RED line where the motors are bolted to.

now you can see just how low the motors are compared to where they should be... this box was made for short shaft motors !!!

click on the pic to blow it up bigger and you will see what I mean.

.

[FMP]

When you extrapolate the scumline angle between motors you see how low with a list it was sitting in the water.
It's a great boat I hope you do make her right.

[oldschoolnc]

RE: Post #43 That explains it.... lol. :D

[FMP]

Yah sure, raise the motors up take it for ride. Maybe that's been said a few times.

[reelbrothers]

this is a 30 Inch OX66 250, he has a 49.6 top end.398857

[FMP]

It won't loose hold in a big swell with chop on top.

[reelbrothers]

he sold that one, he's looking at a center console model to restore now,

next question on the engines, I believe they are 9 amp charge , can hey be upgraded for higher output? I'm just thinking about trolling at low rpm and running electronics, live well ect..

[powerabout]

It won't loose hold in a big swell with chop on top.
it sure will..

[powerabout]

he sold that one, he's looking at a center console model to restore now,

next question on the engines, I believe they are 9 amp charge , can hey be upgraded for higher output? I'm just thinking about trolling at low rpm and running electronics, live well ect..
yes there was a 35 amp kit, stator, flywheel, top bearing housing etc, you could make that from parts now I would guess?

[reelbrothers]

we are gonna go up one hole

[reelbrothers]

yes there was a 35 amp kit, stator, flywheel, top bearing housing etc, you could make that from parts now I would guess?

Thanks powerabout, I thought I had read there was a 35 amp one, I'll look into, not gonna pour too much into them since my end game is to go with the 250, maybe just do a solar charge setup if nothing else, but will research parts for upgrade, thanks for the reply.

[FMP]

it sure will..

Deeper drive at part throttle rolling over crests seems to hold much better in our water. Particularly when turning over crests.
Not if the drive is raised high again.

[phillnjack]

you can go up one hole but its a waste of time. go up as high as possible ,but it still wont be enough. you need to go up around 7 inches to be at normal height.
if it was mine u would make my own plates and go up atleast 7 inches.. you need the cav plate roughly level with the box bottom.

and with the motors set back that far it will easy handle swells no problems, these boats ride with the back end down a bit anyway.

if they were 20 inch motors you could possibly get away with using the clamp at its highest setting.. but not with xxl mids.

take it up all the way, then see if any improvement. just 1 hole is not going to make any difference.

[powerabout]

Deeper drive at part throttle rolling over crests seems to hold much better in our water. Particularly when turning over crests.
Not if the drive is raised high again.
yes I agree, as you move away from the transom you start to get issues offshore when fishing and not racing

[flabum1017]

Has not been mentioned yet.... also make sure the box isn't filling up with water....................

[reelbrothers]

ok, got head gaskets, carson reeds and carbs rebuilt, pumped the bulb, hit the squirter and she fired right up, that's the good, now I can't get the idle down from 2000...what am I missing, shold look for..shouldn't be an air leak, I opened the squirter lever aND it smoked and stalled out, figure if air getting in more fuel would increase rpm even more.

thanks guys.

[powerabout]

check all throttle butterflys are closed at idle

[flabum1017]

Check your synch and link........ idle timing etc.......... The spaghetti seals behind the carbs are easy to have one slip and suck air.

[reelbrothers]

flabum, powerbout..now keep in mInd this is first outboard I've done anything more than plugs, and was following diagram in book, I got the dang intermediate and idle jets reversed.....I'm learning..
thanks for helping

[powerabout]

I love the easy fixes

[reelbrothers]

got home and swapped the air bleeds in the 3 other carbs,bolted the other back on, started up, idled 1100 until warmed then fell to 800, then stumbled and cut off, so to the lake this weekend hopefully to get it tuned in correct.
what a difference .030" makes..

[reelbrothers]

I love the easy fixes

I realize there are lots of caveats to this question but what is your thought on the sweet spot for cruise rpm on these looper v4s...4200?
mine is stock, just playing with prop calculator....

[phillnjack]

about 4800, any less and it will be labouring.. just watch the speedo and the revs.
4200 its got no torque, you too high for low down torque and too low for upper power.

best way is to just test on the boat with the load you will be averaging.

[flabum1017]

I realize there are lots of caveats to this question but what is your thought on the sweet spot for cruise rpm on these looper v4s...4200?
mine is stock, just playing with prop calculator....

It really depends on the boat and load. the easiest way to figure the best cruise is by where the boat planes off. A light boat can plane off at 2500 or so, so economical cruise would be around 3000 - 3500 (like my little Baja would cruise at 40MPH at 3000 RPM). heavy boats moight plane off at 3500 so cruise will be around 4000- 4500........... I usually go by the rule of 500 rpm after the bow drops. but if you don't really care about economy so much, then about 500 brelow WOT will do.

[reelbrothers]

Thanks guys , I'm trying to look for 30 at cruise, 2 mins /mile for running to the fishing grounds and exactly what ya'll implied on lugging is what I'm wanting to avoid. now that I know what rpm range I should look to maintain I can get a starting point, you guys are the best!

Thanks

[powerabout]

you need to look at this after you get the engine height fixed as it should be going lots faster at WOT

[reelbrothers]

hi all, Ive got a gremlin in one of the motors, so had boat running good, went up to 21p props and got all I was expecting,
shut motors off one day and one wouldn't fire, got in on one. pulled cover and checked and no spark period on any cyl. after heck of time getting flywheel off I replaced timer base with used one that tested good, replaced voltage regulator and power pack. I scotchbrited stator but didn't replace as it was charging.
it ran again..took out today , same thing, ran for maybe 30 mins, shut off and now no spark period again , I don't have neutral cutoff in line the black/yellow wire is only on a toggle, I had eliminated key switches. any ideas what to look at?
Thanks

[flabum1017]

Kills switch or ignition switch, but more likely the stator

[reelbrothers]

ok, problem solved. turns out the 2 wire connector on new powerpack. the male pins are not secure in the boot and instead of pushing into female of stator side the slid down, guess they were making contact by touch Initially and lost contact after a little vibration , decided to do ohm check and happened to look inside, slid em up, made sure had full engage and fires right up...

[reelbrothers]

Hope everyone's doing well, thanks for all your help in getting these motors dialed in, no expert for sure but have learned a lot bout these 2 strokes!
with the Carson reeds the response is great. One last PITA I'm having is Stbd motor cranks right up and runs great, just won't idle good, if I come off speed it may idle for 30 seconds then dies, doesn't cough or run rough just dies, will crank right back, Idle 30 seconds and die, no hesitation off idle when I throttle up, either hammering or easing up. timing, mixture screws ect all seem correct, no apparent hose leaks, any suggestions .

Thanks guys.

[flabum1017]

could be loding up, check your float levels.

[reelbrothers]

Took out Saturday, Port engine idles great, runs great to 5k, can get 5500 with trim. Stbd engine is a beast, it will hit 6200 rpm so toying around with trim ect saw 42 mph on gps, now remember this is with 2.25 ratio and 21p alum props, I'll upgrade props , didn't want to drop a bunch not knowing if they would push, I'll keep tweaking on the port side til I get full power, I found that the nut was loose on the timing stop screw and it was backed way out so I'm sure I had too much timing at wot , got nervous, check compression, still good at 120 all 4..if I can get both to run 6200 I think it will do 45, that's way more than I expected from 25 y/o engines!
Thanks again to all of you for helping me through this

[reelbrothers]

report from today, so port motor would RPM out at 5k at 80% throttls, runs great just dead after butterflies 3/4 open.
well, as it turned out the hose that comes from the pulse limiter was not tight at the fuel pump fitting ,guess it wasn't allowing the pump to operate fully,
only discovered because we decided to put a new pump on even though current one was only a year old, now the engine spins up 5700, we hit 44 mph
and we don't have to play with controls to get both engines cruising at 4500. I've seen several threads about engines not building rpm so maybe this will help others evaluate, I've had many issues since the spring, almost all have been fuel delivery,
Thanks to all the guys who've contributed to my learning about the good ole smokers!