'75 high compression V4 crossflow intake stuffers and pump gas?

[pcrussell50]

So I have this '75 bubble back 135, totally stock. Used to be our daily driver family boat motor (on our 16' Sidewinder LowPro clone). Haven't really used it since a couple of years ago when we started using our 18' Bahner bowrider with a 2.0L 150.

Anyway, so two years ago just after I last used my V4 135, I took off the intake and put some Chris Carson reeds into it. While I was at it, I put in some of those intake stuffers that I had lying around, the kind that came in the '77 140hp.

My question is, since I pretty much only run 91 pump in that motor, do the stuffers increase my risk of detonation? It is generally run on Lake Mead which is about 1100 feet above sea level. I have a '93 bubble back (115 hp) that I can put them in, instead, if that is a better match... And it sounds like it probably is.

-Peter

[flabum1017]

The stuffers won't be the problem, it will be the higher compression (if it doesn't have the thicker head gaskets) and the high ring pistons in the 135............ 91 should be ok, bump the timing back a couple degrees to be sure

[pcrussell50]

Great tip as always, 'Bum. Where do I get the thicker head gaskets? Part number? ProMarine maybe?

EDIT: These? http://parts.promarineusa.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+L401FF79A1603F901EAF202D+M50+ENG

-Peter

[FMP]

High ring, hc heads, gaskets what's the cranking psi?

[Mark Poole ModVP]

The '75 135 should not have high ringers but the '77 140 did. If you have ever noticed, there are hardly any 140's still running (original). I still see old 85 and 115's running. Between the bigger ports, the high ringers, and the extra H.P. most are long dead! They told us at OMC school to turn the timing back 2 degrees. I miss the cross flow motors from the '70's. Excellent power to size ratio and simple to troubleshoot and fix.

[FMP]

Not too many originals but it had been 40years. So hc motors are 155-165 psi? If you don't feed them good fuel ...... 165-175 is max for 93-94 gas in my Chryslers with lots of ign. Don't load them , let them spin. That's at 583' .

[pcrussell50]

Glad it's not a high ring piston. But I suppose I should check compression before I go to thicker head gaskets or anything else, just to get a ballpark of where I am in cranking pressure. Thanks, so far, guys.

I have a couple hundred hours on this motor, and who knows how much before I bought it? Most of it at family recreational boat rpm's. But I've done a few full power/speed runs. It GPS'd in the Sidewinder LowPro, with just me, at just under 55mph. And was juuust getting "walky", but still super easy to control at that speed. Glad it stayed together.

-Peter

[flabum1017]

They went to thicker head gaskets when the government took the lead out of the gas..............

[DanUmbarger]

I've had the same questions about my 1975 135 Johnson on my 16' Hustler Victor. Mine is also stock and I'm running 91 octane at 40:1 TCW3 oil. So what is the consensus? Go with the thicker head gaskets...drop timing 2 degrees...run 91-93 oct...all of the above or a combo of some of them???

[Mark Poole ModVP]

As FMP said, don't load them. I have seen people run a bigger prop because it gives them 2 mph. Better off without that extra 2 mph and let the motor turn up where it should. The bass boat crowd is bad about this. They want the biggest prop they can turn for the top end speed, then when they are not fishing they pull the kids on a tube.
The older cross flows have big jets so they are getting plenty of fuel. Turn timing down 1 to 2 deg. and run a can of engine tuner through it once or twice a year. Nice thing about the cross flows, you can easily take intake transfer covers off and do a good inspection of the pistons, rings and cylinders.

[FMP]

What's psi spec for those hi comp v4?

[Mark Poole ModVP]

The older engines and the high ring engines would have 150 to 160. My dad had a '79 85h.p. That was a strong 85 but it had high ringers in it and we pulled them out before they failed.

[FMP]

I run the Chryslers with Wisecos. Not high ring but still 165+ with just a touch from the head. Factory spec is 155-165, some had high ring some not. Also have a three ring 105 that's 145psi, will never drop a psi with that one, also doesn't have the front case stuffers but you wouldn't know it the way it runs.

[DanUmbarger]

Just did a compression test on my 135 ( was winterized and fogged 3 weeks ago) and it had 125# on 1,2 and 4 and 130# on 3....this is with the gauge I normally use now.....I have 4 gauges and they all read differently. Once I do a compression test on a motor that had water in it it seems to kill the gauge. This gauge hasn't been subjected to water "yet"! This test was done cold and throttle plates closed...tried opening wot and only seemed to raise them 5#s or so...how are you guys testing compression? Normally when I do a comp test its cold and am just checking cyls for any low cyls then delve into them if needed. I strongly agree with the use of engine tuner...have brought both ob's and sterndrives back to life with it.

[FMP]

I do it cold , throats wide open, best would be no fuel but don't like to spin it dry, strong battery. Gauge should top out 3-4 revs. Fogger will increase your numbers.
130 fogged doesn't seem too high , I'd get it up another 25 psi but doesn't mean you should.

[phillnjack]

you already have good compression for that motor.

what exactly is it you want from the motor ? good all round general motor or a race engine that wont last long ?

[FMP]

Race is 200psi, 150-160 will live a long happy life in good tune and fuel.

[DanUmbarger]

What I really want is my engine to have a long...happy life :) If it takes installing the thicker gaskets I will...my timing is set at the factory 20 deg vs the 1977 140's 28 deg....do I still need to drop the timing 2 deg or is that just for the 77' 140's? I'll do what I need to do to extend the life of the engine. As for not loading the engine...do I need to stay up to the 5800 area? At the moment the best prop is a Renegade 4 blade at 52-5400 which I'm going to have worked. All in all I think this is what Peter is looking for also...reliability.

[DanUmbarger]

Peter...if I remember correctly you can even get the thicker gaskets from Sierra/NAPA. I'll check it out when I get back to work from vacation.


Great tip as always, 'Bum. Where do I get the thicker head gaskets? Part number? ProMarine maybe?

EDIT: These? http://parts.promarineusa.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+L401FF79A1603F901EAF202D+M50+ENG

-Peter

[phillnjack]

to FMP
what would you know about good tune , you run Chryslers and the F word :p ...

[FMP]

Just for kicks, get the psi up to 155 , give it 26* and 94fuel with 40:1, add a can of Royal Purple Boost to 15-20 gallons if you're worried and let it spin to 6000. Guarantee you won't look back

[FMP]

to FMP
what would you know about good tune , you run Chryslers and the F word :p ...

Anytime buttercup:D

[pcrussell50]

Peter...if I remember correctly you can even get the thicker gaskets from Sierra/NAPA. I'll check it out when I get back to work from vacation.

That would be great, thanks!

The ProMarine gaskets are $35... EACH :(

-Peter

[FMP]

What psi are you going for 110?

[phillnjack]

he wants the motor to last...
look at his other boats, he already has the go fast 140 on his viper !!!.

[FMP]

Doesn't have to neuter it to an 85 from 135 to make it live hundreds of hrs.

[rjdubiel]

my 140 powerhead runs about 130-135 psi and lives on 32:1 Pennzoil XFL and 91 octane ethanal free fuel. If I was at higher compression than that my fuel would have to be a blend of 91 and 110 to be safe in my mind. This motor has the 9 Pages mods done and has been a great motor for me.

Now I am no expert, but leaving this motor stock with your added reeds and stuffers I would double check your WOT timing and feed it good fuel and oil and your off and running! Check your burn and plugs every so often along with compression and you will be good to go.

[FMP]

I'll run 94 with alc and 40:1 with 170.

[phillnjack]

well you wont be running ethonal free for much longer.
the un summit has put a stop on that happening in the future. all auto fuel is going to be minimum 5% and most will be 10%. by 2020.
most western governments have signed up for that already and its being implemented now nearly everywhere.
they dont have to even tell you its in the fuel until its above 8%.
most places that claim ethanol free actually have 5 to 8% in the fuel, because even they dont know what is in it nowdays.

[DanUmbarger]

Just for the heck of it I removed the #1 cyl intake transfer cover to check my piston and ring condition and they were fine. Also the 1975 135 does not have the high rings( was almost certain they didn't). I'm running NGK B7HS-10 plugs and the color is great on them. For higher RPM's they call for the surface gap plugs and the J gap's for low speed running....is there any chance of detonation using the J gap's or should I go to the colder surface gap's?

[olboatman]

well you wont be running ethonal free for much longer.
the un summit has put a stop on that happening in the future. all auto fuel is going to be minimum 5% and most will be 10%. by 2020.
most western governments have signed up for that already and its being implemented now nearly everywhere.
they dont have to even tell you its in the fuel until its above 8%.
most places that claim ethanol free actually have 5 to 8% in the fuel, because even they dont know what is in it nowdays.
I don't think the US is part of that summit anymore:p......to check your fuel just add a small amount of water in a clear container, mark the water line, shake well, let stand a half hr and you will see how much alky is in the fuel by the amount the water line grows.;)
This is how I remove it out of small amounts of fuel.
Gary

[phillnjack]

the summit on the fuel was instigated by the usa, its all a part of the save the planet crap.
The usa is the major player in the clean up on the emission's from petrol and diesel engines.

there is a lot more talks that go on in Europe involving the big 7 countries, we hear about it all the time as they impose the
crap on us as guinee pigs, then follow in the us and Europe.

General motors know what us happening as they are shutting engine production big time in Europe, so to have many other companies.

we need to find an electric motor that will kick out 100hp or might as well get some real nice paddles and sails.

[FMP]

With forced induction four strokes 400 Merc, on big hulls that can hold 2.5 times the space for fuel tanks. Conversion to hydrogen with equal performance is possible. Hydrogen generated from water via electrolysis from a renewable energy such as wind. Fueling times are as fast as gasoline from a hydrogen station. All the wonders of a mechanical engine and as clean as you can get.

[powerabout]

With forced induction four strokes 400 Merc, on big hulls that can hold 2.5 times the space for fuel tanks. Conversion to hydrogen with equal performance is possible. Hydrogen generated from water via electrolysis from a renewable energy such as wind. Fueling times are as fast as gasoline from a hydrogen station. All the wonders of a mechanical engine and as clean as you can get.
Hydrogen tank needs to be 4 x larger than the gasoline tank it replaces ( depending how its compressed and to be a liquid is needs to be at -273k)
So if all the boats are filling up with hydrogen the gas station tank is 4 x larger, how to fill the gas station?
Stuff like this is why Elon Musk says Hydrogen is just not practical

[FMP]

2.5 fact lol. Delivered or produced on site or part of a networking renewable production. Can even be done at home with a solar or 10-20 kW wind.
Fuel cell even better. Fill up n 2-3min.hundreds of miles range

[powerabout]

2.5 fact lol. Delivered or produced on site
at what pressure?
now add the size of that tank and weight to hold that pressure and its not going to work or go cryogenic.
One web site I can find says at 12,000psi tank is 3 x the size of gasoline for same btu.
Only makes sense with fuel cell to pick up efficiency over a SI engine

[pcrussell50]

Hydrogen tank needs to be 4 x larger than the gasoline tank it replaces ( depending how its compressed and to be a liquid is needs to be at -273k)
So if all the boats are filling up with hydrogen the gas station tank is 4 x larger, how to fill the gas station?
Stuff like this is why Elon Musk says Hydrogen is just not practical

Pretty rich statement by "battery boy" Musk there, considering batteries have a about 1/20th the energy density of hydrogen, and 1/100th the energy density of gasoline.

-Peter

[powerabout]

look at the big picture of all the electrical energy you need to create hydrogen and then compress to at least 10,000psi so you can fit it in your car.
Take that same electrical energy and just charge the battery in your car
If Hydrogen fuel cell and the related infrastructure worked I'm sure Musk would be using it?
When comparing a gas to a battery and liquid you need to talk volume and weight whilst you are trying to use it in a vehicle

"Hydrogen has more energy per unit mass than other fuels (61,100 BTUs per pound versus 20,900 BTUs per pound of gasoline). The problem with hydrogen is that it is much less dense (pounds per gallon) than other fuels.Dec 30, 2003"

then you need to work out how to get 1 pound of hydrogen in your car, when its liquid as in cryogenic it still weighs less than same volume of gasoline

[FMP]

Hyundai

[pcrussell50]

hydrogen is that it is much less dense (pounds per gallon) than other fuels.Dec 30, 2003"

then you need to work out how to get 1 pound of hydrogen in your car, when its liquid as in cryogenic it still weighs less than same volume of gasoline

That's why, despite hydrogen's high energy content, it's problematic for mobile applications. Until some other massive (and unforseeable) breakthrough comes along, it's going to be petro, or something with lots of compromise in comparison.

-Peter

[powerabout]

and here is a post to get the thread back on track

[FMP]

That's why, despite hydrogen's high energy content, it's problematic for mobile applications. Until some other massive (and unforseeable) breakthrough comes along, it's going to be petro, or something with lots of compromise in comparison.

-Peter

Filling had been SAE standardized for over two years. No problem

[FMP]

and here is a post to get the thread back on track
So what's with this chamber?

[pcrussell50]

the point of the picture is to show the small size of the chamber? i assume the later versions with lower compression have bigger chambers?

it may take a while to get to it, but I have a '75 135 that we're talking about here, and the custom built, Wiseco piston, bubble-backed "frankenstein" crossflow on the viper you see in the picture, made up of (supposedly) the best parts from all different years, and I have a stock 1993 bubble back 115, with the VRO system removed. I should take a head off of each and snap a pic to compare. I wish I knew more about the "frankenstein" crossflow, but I didn't build it. someone else did, and I don't know them. It runs well though.

-Peter

[FMP]

Custom Wisecos, show us those and the chamber.
Almost looked as if the head was cut tight and the chamber opened a bit to get the psi in range with the tight squish. What's the clearance on the intake side of the deflector going up the ramp?

[powerabout]

Just a stock 135 thats all
Whats your cranking compression?

[pcrussell50]

Filling had been SAE standardized for over two years. No problem

Hydrogen's a great fuel, no question about it. If you can tolerate the huge tank, or tolerate a normal sized tank and short range, you'd be in business...

Notwithstanding the powerful politics behind the current battery fad, hydrogen holds way more of a workable solution than batteries... again... if you can keep politics out of it.

-Peter

[FMP]

Crossflow yes but different animal. 3.415 bore Chrysler 165-170 on pump. I was asking about clearance wondering if the 9 pages had tighten and worked the chambers? Getting to .040 and working the chamber to keep a pump gas psi .

[powerabout]

sure but the power absorbed to create and compress it is huge, so its going to be a while before the grid is solar powered then we wont care.
If each gas station has to have high pressure tanks or be multiple times bigger than they are now its lots of space getting used up.
Gas station that is just a bowser but plugged into the mains for power is way smaller, cheaper, simpler, safer.

I'm not saying hydrogen wont work but its a few years out thats for sure.
Lets wait to see a recreational boat with a fuel cell and batteries and elec motor that can plane....

Plenty of work going on in the offshore industry. There are several rig supply boats 80-90m that are lpg and with some fuel cells and some with 3.5mw batteries in them as well for back up.
Autonomous ships for local waters are being worked on lots, deciding what power source is best is where they are doing the work.

[FMP]

We have stations here

[powerabout]

We have stations here
how many cars can they fill an hour and all day?
I read a road test on a hydrogen car in CA and they said its very limited as the station takes hours to recharge once its done a few cars.
Not sure of the process there?

[powerabout]

Some energy densities in kWh per liter:
9.5 – 12 = the good old Coal
9.9 = Diesel
6.2 = LNG at -162°C
2.4 = Liquefied Hydrogen at -253°C
1.6 = Pressurized Hydrogen at 700 bar

we're gunna need a bigger boat

[olboatman]

Back on track.....pcrussell50 does the cowl on the 140 on your Viper have any vents added to it? If so where are they located? I'm in the process of modding my cowl and just interested in others. Thanks
Gary

[pcrussell50]

Back on track.....pcrussell50 does the cowl on the 140 on your Viper have any vents added to it? If so where are they located? I'm in the process of modding my cowl and just interested in others. Thanks
Gary

Hi Gary, no, my cowl is not modified. I have called my motor a "140", but truthfully I just said that for simplicity. It is actually a "Frankenstein"... meaning, it has been built out of parts from many different years of the v4 crossflow, as well as some aftermarket parts, like Wiseco pistons and I don't know what else. I'm only assuming that after all that effort to hand pick parts, that it's about a 140. I wish I knew more about it, but it was already on the Viper when I bought it and the teenager I bought it off was not the one who built the motor. He didn't know anything about it. Runs low-mid 60's in the Viper with just me in it. Viper has sharpened strakes, raised transom, and flat pad. Don't know how much the flat pad hurts or helps. I've heard both arguments. I just know that it handles fine at 60. Don't know how that would change at 70 or more with a bigger motor.

-Peter

[racervboat]

Yeah gary :iagree: back on track or start a hydrogen thread.

[pcrussell50]

Yeah gary :iagree: back on track or start a hydrogen thread.

The shop that built the Wiseco piston v4 crossflow hanging on the Viper in my picture is from Minneapolis//St. Paul area, I'm told. Wish I knew more.

-Peter

[racervboat]

Don't know why you say custom wiseco's or have they been scalloped?

[pcrussell50]

The motor was custom built, with Wiseco pistons. That little comma means a lot...


custom built, Wiseco piston, bubble-backed "frankenstein" crossflow

-Peter

[powerabout]

if you pop a bypass cover you can see how both a scallop or not and the inlet ports
Does it have stock 135 main jets?

[spybot]

Back on track.....pcrussell50 does the cowl on the 140 on your Viper have any vents added to it? If so where are they located? I'm in the process of modding my cowl and just interested in others. Thanks
Gary
That would make a good thread Gary i would be interested in how many mods can be done

[racervboat]

spybot,pcrussell im done ,two different threads one wants a 85hp mod motor the other wants a 9 pager ??????????????????????????

[DanUmbarger]

Personally I think I'm gonna leave my stock 135 stock but am going to be proactive by putting in some CCMS reeds and some intake stuffer blocks I found in my shop. Still gonna run premium fuel and am not sure whether to drop my 20 deg timing down 2 deg...is the 20 deg timing for the 1975 135 lower than the 28 deg timing on the 1977 140 because of port timing differences between the two motors? Is the 2 deg timing drop just for the 140 or is for the 135 also. This motor runs very well and just want to keep it that way.

[olboatman]

That would make a good thread Gary i would be interested in how many mods can be done

I agree and to that point I will start one this mornin!
Gary

[powerabout]

without gears modding a 2 stroke is limited by what its on and what you are doing with it

[FMP]

Just for kicks, get the psi up to 155 , give it 26* and 94fuel with 40:1, add a can of Royal Purple Boost to 15-20 gallons if you're worried and let it spin to 6000. Guarantee you won't look back

Start on the conservative side

[racervboat]

Not to get off track but you guys started the fuel thing.Gary c I tried your method to check for alcohol in the fuel that was non ethonal from the fuel purchased this summer at our local super America station and not a drop found the water level stayed exactly the same 1 inch of water in a quart of fuel.

[olboatman]

Not to get off track but you guys started the fuel thing.Gary c I tried your method to check for alcohol in the fuel that was non ethonal from the fuel purchased this summer at our local super America station and not a drop found the water level stayed exactly the same 1 inch of water in a quart of fuel.
Sounds to me that your good to go Ken......or their using methanol!!!!:eek:
Gary

[racervboat]

Dought that this is a corn belt state pretty sure its corn liquor.

[DanUmbarger]

I summerized my motor today and redid the compression test with my newly re-calibrated compression tester and the compression jumped to 145# per cyl. Also was the first time run with the new CCMS reeds and intake stuffer blocks. Ran really good....can't wait for warmer weather and all the tree branches and all the other crap that's floating in the river to be gone :D



Just did a compression test on my 135 ( was winterized and fogged 3 weeks ago) and it had 125# on 1,2 and 4 and 130# on 3....this is with the gauge I normally use now.....I have 4 gauges and they all read differently. Once I do a compression test on a motor that had water in it it seems to kill the gauge. This gauge hasn't been subjected to water "yet"! This test was done cold and throttle plates closed...tried opening wot and only seemed to raise them 5#s or so...how are you guys testing compression? Normally when I do a comp test its cold and am just checking cyls for any low cyls then delve into them if needed. I strongly agree with the use of engine tuner...have brought both ob's and sterndrives back to life with it.

[FMP]

More more more more, that new gauge will make you faster:D cut it a bit???
I'm happy with

[flabum1017]

I summerized my motor today and redid the compression test with my newly re-calibrated compression tester and the compression jumped to 145# per cyl. Also was the first time run with the new CCMS reeds and intake stuffer blocks. Ran really good....can't wait for warmer weather and all the tree branches and all the other crap that's floating in the river to be gone :D

I got a compression gauge that will show your motor at 200#'s want to borrow it? :D

[DanUmbarger]

Crap...if I did that then I'd have to run race fuel:cheers:



I got a compression gauge that will show your motor at 200#'s want to borrow it? :D

[Umassot50]

My mildly modified 1973 135hp needed 92 or better fuel. Gage compression was about 165#. I ended up burning a Piston. Probably could have used bigger jets too though.

[FMP]

Could be all it needed