Chaz...designer...inventor...engineer

[noli]

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Wiki-pedia defines an Engineer as...
people who invent, design, analyse, build and test machines, systems, structures and materials to fulfill objectives and requirements while considering the limitations imposed by practicality, regulation, safety, and cost

A collection of Chaz's most significant works.

Share your pics here




"a bracket that split in the front on one side and the top on the other . We , notched , welded ,wrapped , side plated and then bored the tilt hole , pressed in a 6061 tube and then pilot reamed it to final size ... :thumbsup:"


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[vnemous]

The cannoli inside the cannoli, still his best invention ever:D




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[Instigator]

One of my favorite lunch stops ��

[Chaz]

Chaz = thinkin , Aye noli , canoli' in a canoli for everyone ... on vnemous of course .. :eek:

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propshaft diagnostics...



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FrankinShortInMercInStockInCaseIn



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[AZMIDLYF]

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[vnemous]

Ahhhh Brandon hanging out at Flanagan's nice:D

[vnemous]

Chaz=my water I'll drive


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[AZMIDLYF]

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[Chaz]

Ahhhh Brandon hanging out at Flanagan's nice:D

When he was 15 he wanted me to rent him an apartment in Harlem so he could train with Hannible . Looking back , I was the only one who saw it as a bad idea .
Brandon still uses many of the resistance and isometric techniques he learned watching the video's during the classes he teaches today ... :thumbsup:
Not many people have the core strength to do sideways push-up hanging from a pole ..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ4M67zpO6g

[Chaz]

I built this car to easily swap between big inch nitrous and roots blower motors .
It is legal to 5.0 flat and 250 mph . Bead Lock wheels , twin chutes and full floater rear hubs .
The guy didn't want any of my nitrous stuff , so that stuff including the headers stayed with me ...

https://i.imgur.com/MKwmMMdl.jpg

[Instigator]

Charlie, off subject, I am talking to a guy about helping him w/an OMC project for a tunnel boat class trying to bring in all motor breeds.
Cross breed any mid, any gear case under any powerhead.
Which basically means adapting your non Merc p.head to a Merc mid/gear case or roll your own.
Since all the OMC race stuff is owned by collectors, I always thought the answer at least for the mid is a fabbed up sheet aluminum mid w/upper and lower mounting flanges to allow a bolt pattern for whatever you run.

In my mind, about 6 pcs of sheet and a good welder and you'd have a good looking mid.

No?

[Chaz]

Yes , absolutely .
The " setback spine " above was built like that . Todd wanted to be able to use the three ram trim and a true 15" can for the bass boat guys . I built 5 or 6 for him and 1 went to Key largo .
We often talked about doing a Monocoque can , but never really took it any farther than napkin drawings ..
Top flange , bottom flange , some mounting bosses , some star wars-y looking corrugation on your outside panels and the same for some "baffles" inside and you would have a light weight bad azz can for not a lot of money ... :thumbsup:

[davemvegas]

Yes , absolutely .
The " setback spine " above was built like that . Todd wanted to be able to use the three ram trim and a true 15" can for the bass boat guys . I built 5 or 6 for him and 1 went to Key largo .
We often talked about doing a Monocoque can , but never really took it any farther than napkin drawings ..
Top flange , bottom flange , some mounting bosses , some star wars-y looking corrugation on your outside panels and the same for some "baffles" inside and you would have a light weight bad azz can for not a lot of money ... :thumbsup:

I sent you 2 Burger King coupons. I will take 2 of the cheap custom mids. Thanks.

[Instigator]

Interesting

Ive thought for yrs that was the answer.
Done right it'd be stronger than the OEM casting.
So you'd be away from Merc controlling rules on our powerheads and mids.
I read somewhere that Ron Hill suggested casting a speed master housing from stainless.
Do that w/some improvements and you'd now have an APBA legal motor w-no political manipulation from any engine mfgs and run any powerhead you desired ��


Yes , absolutely .
The " setback spine " above was built like that . Todd wanted to be able to use the three ram trim and a true 15" can for the bass boat guys . I built 5 or 6 for him and 1 went to Key largo .
We often talked about doing a Monocoque can , but never really took it any farther than napkin drawings ..
Top flange , bottom flange , some mounting bosses , some star wars-y looking corrugation on your outside panels and the same for some "baffles" inside and you would have a light weight bad azz can for not a lot of money ... :thumbsup:

[noli]

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anyone ever play with NMAE2000 or CAN bus protocols?







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[mercracer2.5]

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Wiki-pedia defines an Engineer as...
people who invent, design, analyse, build and test machines, systems, structures and materials to fulfill objectives and requirements while considering the limitations imposed by practicality, regulation, safety, and cost

A collection of Chaz's most significant works.

Please share your pics here.




"a bracket that split in the front on one side and the top on the other . We , notched , welded ,wrapped , side plated and then bored the tilt hole , pressed in a 6061 tube and then pilot reamed it to final size ... :thumbsup:"


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I believe this is my saddle bracket. I race with it offshore and its so much stronger than stock. I have no worries about going out in the rough stuff and making it back in all intact.
Chaz is the man and very talented and a great easy guy to work with.

[AZMIDLYF]

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[Chaz]

I sent you 2 Burger King coupons. I will take 2 of the cheap custom mids. Thanks.

Throw in a large boiled peanuts from Lil Jim Bridge Bait ~n~ Tackle shop , and ya gotz yourself a deal ... :thumbsup:

Chaz = thinkin , if Davie or I tried drivin one of them little crouch down on yur belly racers , that's how they'd find us after the buzzards picked us clean .. :o

[Chaz]

Yes sir Mercracer that's you swivel bracket ... :thumbsup:


The late model plenum with early hardware was an attempt at building an inexpensive alternative to buying a 300x reed adapter plate .
My original idea was to drill and tap the plastic (phenolic) block to bolt the reed blocks to . I chickened out , thinking that the threads might melt , so instead I sandwiched a opti reed plate on the far side because it was radiused pretty good and had the factory threads . I did move each pair of injectors closer to each other and made my own fuel rail and tabbed and spacer mounted it to the opti plate . Worked well , I just didn't like the idea of the injector close to the corner of the port . I built a couple then moved onto the 2 1/2" thick aluminum slabs ...

[noli]

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cutting bracket hydraulic ram down so that it fits on 15" mid-cans


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[AZMIDLYF]

The Slop-Stop...

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[noli]

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"They made me an offer I couldn't refuse . A credit for canole' at Georgio's ... :D"


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[noli]

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"We have been whittling on a couple of slabs of aluminum, that will move the injectors outside like a X motor. Along with a few other subtle improvements over the production piece .. :thumbsup:

I have another setup that we are ready to test and do any final tweeks that might come up, that will be a bunch cheaper than buying all the parts from Merc to do an outside injector conversion on a 3.0L which will fit under any year cowling .. ;)"



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The work table is a scientific creation in itself







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[AZMIDLYF]

First the napkin..then you build a jig. ;)

[powerabout]

V8 to Merc?

[AZMIDLYF]

V8 to Merc?

Early stages of this set up I believe...

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[Chaz]

First the napkin..then you build a jig. ;)

Sometimes I go way off the reservation and find myself doing this .... but I'm way more comfortable with the napkin ... :D

https://i.imgur.com/RSlb6HEl.jpg

[Chaz]

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Sometime that older corroded stuff wins the battle ....

https://i.imgur.com/KjP0fEVl.jpg

But not the war ... :thumbsup:

https://i.imgur.com/i0AWYGJl.jpg

[Chaz]

V8 to Merc?

Most V-8 's were to an OMC ( forward only ) lower with a cone . I think one was to a 2.5 lower and the one on "Twisted" is a OMC F-1 with the skeg cut off .
It didn't matter to me . I made up a set of universal spacers and fake sliding driveshafts that lets me mate up any crankshaft spline to any lower unit case at any desired length ...

[AZMIDLYF]

Bucket list of mine...CAD/Cam and welding :thumbsup:

[vnemous]

.. but I'm way more comfortable with the napkin ... :D

I remember when you were making headers working off a napkin drawing from Flanigans and when the pipes wouldnt line up you realized it was a rice, bean and BBQ stain.:D Good Times

[AZMIDLYF]

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[olboatman]

Scribed.....Great Stuff!!!!
Gary

[noli]

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"Here's a shortened XS can ....."



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[Chaz]

Bucket list of mine...CAD/Cam and welding :thumbsup:

This the program that James Perry turned me onto . You can download Mach-3 and follow the tutorial .. next thing you know , your ready to crash some end mills .. :D

And as vnemous pointed out , less likely to get BBQ sauce on it ...:nonod:

Welding is about timing and depth perception . If you can play a musical instrument and/or sew with a needle and thread in the dark ... you'll do fine .. :thumbsup:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf1a6F2tYdU

[Chaz]

A lot of the parts and pieces that AZ posted were fab up by my son . I always taught him to trust his numbers . That whole , just a little more mentality will put your parts all over the board ... :thumbsup:

https://i.imgur.com/c9Hafphl.jpg

[Chaz]

It seems no matter if I ran my bar thru the mains , clamped blocks and fronts together or on my surface plate , the parts will still move around a few thou from major welding . I recently built a machine that surfaces up to 36" long ...

https://i.imgur.com/TgfIraJl.jpg

Water ports erode pretty bad and where the cases bolt together are pretty mismatched from the factory these days ... not no mo ... :thumbsup:

https://i.imgur.com/yeC0R1Vl.jpg

[Chaz]

The decked block brings me in a little tight ....

https://i.imgur.com/h5x5CoOl.jpg

The removable chamber heads we developed for the big bore motors make it easy to set the final quench distance .
I have a few different chamber design's we are going to work with as well . First set will be a bit on the conservative side .. :nonod: :D

https://i.imgur.com/myzoO8Pl.jpg

[AZMIDLYF]

The MACH3 tip is much appreciated Sir. The welding on the other hand :eek:... Momma says my timing stinks and the eyes are already using accessories so that could be an adventure. :D

[vnemous]

So are they ready to go back on the boat??????????

[AZMIDLYF]

Is that a Glidden rag? Did you close the deck on that block? These for the 25 Motion?

[powerabout]

I'd be happy to external plumb to avoid water across the deck

[powerabout]

How do you fix mismatched cases?
Face it, move it ( shift dowl pin) and rebore?

[Chaz]

The MACH3 tip is much appreciated Sir. The welding on the other hand :eek:... Momma says my timing stinks and the eyes are already using accessories so that could be an adventure. :D

Your welcome .. but like I said , James Perry turned me onto it . I'm just passing it along .. :thumbsup:

I wear a 1.25 so I can see where I'm going . Then my helmet has another 1.25 diopter lens so I can see what I'm doing once I get there ... :o

I'd much rather be out in the open ....

https://i.imgur.com/uubo5Vml.jpg

Than playin poke ~n~ hope down at the bottom of a dark hole ... :eek:

https://i.imgur.com/lFDxYial.jpg

Couple low spots to deal with on the "easy" side before I plunge cut the floor in the picture above ....

https://i.imgur.com/XKNrCXIl.jpg

Power , Power , Power ... I never mentioned I was building a "line bore" .. so don't get too far ahead .. :p Actually Merc says .. If it has 2 dowel's , take the top 1 out and see if it spins , if not , take them both out and give it a try . If still no ... try another front half ... :rolleyes:

I was talking about dealing with high spots , wavy "pan rails" and area's that tend to erode away .... :smiletest:

The part has to be flat before you can scribe a go~no go area ...

https://i.imgur.com/ZonIjx2l.jpg

And these 3.0L tend to erode the lower stud on the midsection where the little ground loop wire goes and the two short studs on the block , right below the coil mount plate . Actually , those three NPT ports by the base rot away too ..
This ones in pretty good shape . It's here to be bored . But I get blocks that are pretty new and in great shape , but leak water around the water jacket ... I gotta be able to fix it ..

https://i.imgur.com/cWQqVEIl.jpg

[Chaz]

Is that a Glidden rag? Did you close the deck on that block? These for the 25 Motion?

Yes it is ... Deck rings , but not sealed ... Yes they are .. :D

A while back Merc came out with a service bulletin where the block is torqued down in three steps . On the last step , you only do 8 out of the 10 studs . They want you to leave the two studs below # 6 cylinder back at the second torque value . Seems that the blocks are so *******weak , that it pulls # 6 out of round if you tighten all studs evenly .. :(
You know I couldn't let that go ... so I build a little integrity into them for those that want it ... ;)
And yes , the exhaust is a little ... ahhh , different .

[powerabout]

is that electrolysis on the last seal ring surface?

[AZMIDLYF]

Always a treat to get a glimpse into your world Chaz. Sad note though...I'm only MAC capable so MACH3 is problematic. :nonod:

[Chaz]

So are they ready to go back on the boat??????????

Long blocks ... yes .

Still building tuners . Plates are bout done ...

https://i.imgur.com/4sJDuVvl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/86iS6obl.jpg

Should the exits be round ??? You got till the weekend to convince me .. :D

https://i.imgur.com/sw1LxeYl.jpg

Something that slipped my mind was that I needed stop plates for my "oversize" billet reed blocks . I had bought new screws and Chris Carson built a die to cut reeds for this application .
My friend Noel over at the old Donovan Engineering building got me on the laser before he started cutting full sheets for a big job ... All really great people that have helped along the way ... :thumbsup:

https://i.imgur.com/JNsJcT1l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/F4rdprll.jpg

[AZMIDLYF]

Cross section is better for the the square but wouldn't there be dead spots in the corners and doesn't round create a vortex or something?

Oh yeah...
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Reed stops or Reed flex plates? :eek:

[powerabout]

square and rectangle are usually only used when you dont have the space to have round pipes

[olboatman]

Very impressive!!!!:thumbsup: Talented should be added to Chaz's list and Chaz thanks so much for sharing your amazing world with us.;)
Gary

[vnemous]

Charlie when I get down there I gotta poke a couple more vent holes in the scorpion prop I got. You got some kinda rig for that?

[FMP]

Cross section is better for the the square but wouldn't there be dead spots in the corners and doesn't round create a vortex or something?

Oh yeah...
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Reed stops or Reed flex plates? :eek:

Nice looking piece. Have any dyno numbers on how unequal scavenging lengths spread the curve or is this for a equal bank height block?

[Chaz]

Charlie when I get down there I gotta poke a couple more vent holes in the scorpion prop I got. You got some kinda rig for that?

That will be three in total you will need to do ... :thumbsup:

I almost forgot , check and see if Uncle Bud has any he needs done , you can stop to pick his up and then do them all of them at once .. :D

[vnemous]

Im only talking to uncle bud in memes and gifs so it makes it very hard to communicate:D

[Chaz]

Nice looking piece. Have any dyno numbers on how unequal scavenging lengths spread the curve or is this for a equal bank height block?

Yes ... thousands of dyno pulls ... Y , you mean you don't ... ?????

Equal bank , fork and blade rods on a single throw , all the latest tricks ...... in 1915 :rolleyes:

The secret's out :
90* twist vortex stimulator "boom tubes" .....>

PS .. How many barrels does a Q-U-A-D-rajet have ... take all the time you need :p

https://i.imgur.com/zJYaqAZl.jpg

[AZMIDLYF]

Quit pulsyfootin' around Chaz...

[FMP]

You should polish them a bit more , extra shine just like your personality.

[FMP]

Yes ... thousands of dyno pulls ... Y , you mean you don't ... ?????

Equal bank , fork and blade rods on a single throw , all the latest tricks ...... in 1915 :rolleyes:

The secret's out :
90* twist vortex stimulator "boom tubes" .....>

PS .. How many barrels does a Q-U-A-D-rajet have ... take all the time you need :p

https://i.imgur.com/zJYaqAZl.jpg

These are extra nice

[davemvegas]

Yes ... thousands of dyno pulls ... Y , you mean you don't ... ?????

Equal bank , fork and blade rods on a single throw , all the latest tricks ...... in 1915 :rolleyes:

The secret's out :
90* twist vortex stimulator "boom tubes" .....>

PS .. How many barrels does a Q-U-A-D-rajet have ... take all the time you need :p

https://i.imgur.com/zJYaqAZl.jpg


My dumb question for the month. If bank 1, 3, 5 is 1 3/4 inch higher then 2, 4, 6 bank. There should be 1 3/4 longer tuner built in block and adapter. Why does 1, 3, 5 bank not have 1 3/4 shorter tuner to be equal?

[vnemous]

I would guess that with that short of a runner scavenging really doesn't make much a difference.

[FMP]

Trying to find the info on tuner ratio and shape. Surprisingly round or square etc didn't result in much difference but certain things as corner shape I believe are important. I can't remember all details so more to it than that, I try to find the tested work.

[Chaz]

There should be 1 3/4 longer tuner built in block and adapter.

Before I forget , vnemous wants to see the "the show" at Gilligan's Island this summer .. :eek: ;) :D

Yes that is true . If they were going to worry about one side being exactly like the other , that would be the place to do it .
As you move farther way from the base of the block , the size , shape , square inch's or exact volume changes . So 1 3/4" might get you closer , your still trying to correct the primary length by changing the collector .. :nonod:

But then , if you consider that the primary length mismatch is worse than these POS headers . Well it would be like FMP winning the Special Olympics , even if he won , he (and these) would still be ******** ... ;)

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.utwfaiIOJsl6dDDuJHtaYgEsEH&pid=Api&w=204&h=181

[FMP]

As long as it works for you. But nice work, the whole thread.

[Chaz]

Trying to find the info on tuner ratio and shape. Surprisingly round or square etc didn't result in much difference but certain things as corner shape I believe are important. I can't remember all details so more to it than that, I try to find the tested work.

Actually offering up a "real world" response ... I'm impressed :p

I can tell you from personal flow bench time , that air doesn't like sharp corners . The two different apposing angles tend to build a large boundary layer against each other and the air column stalls out . The larger the corner radius , naturally , the less each wall works against the other .

Here's some cut and paste of my own ... Pppfffttttt
But it's from Jennings "so you want to build expansion chambers" so I trust the numbers ...!
I also included the "convergent" cone . I didn't want you to read about the "returning wave" in the "divergent" cone and think it was anything other than "more of the same evacuating pull" . The caboose of the train exiting the station , if you will .

I have also seen the 7* to 10* rule of thumb , while building shear plates way before you could buy aluminum one in any color you like .. I build quite a few sheetmetal tunnel rams and I can tell you air doesn't like to step out of a hallway and into a large room without getting lost . A little direction goes a long way .. ;)

HeaderAttachesto the engine and is the straight or slightly divergent (opens up 2-3degrees) section of the pipe. It helps to suck the exhaust gases outof the engine. The header pipe cross-sectional area should be 10-15%greater than the exhaust port window for when maximum output atmaximum RPM's is desired. In some cases the area of the header pipemay have a cross-sectional area 150% of the exhaust port area. thelength should be 6-8 of its diameters for maximum horsepower, for abroader power curve 11 times pipe diameter may be used. The part youtrim off to tune.
Divergent (Diffuser) ConeThesection of the pipe that attaches to the header and opens up at anangle like a megaphone. It intensifies and lengthens the returningsound waves thus broadening the power curve. The steeper the anglethe more intense the negative wave returns, but also the shorter theduration. The lesser the angle, of course, returns a less intensewave, but for a longer period of time (duration). The outlet areashould be 6.25 times the inlet area. 7-10 degree taper angle.
BellyLocatedbetween the divergent and convergent cones, it's length determinesthe relative timing of the negative and positive waves. The shorterthe belly the shorter the distance positive waves travel and thenarrower the RPM range. This is good for operating at HIGH RPM only.The longer the belly the broader the RPM range. The diameter of thebelly has little or no effect.
Convergent (Baffle) ConeLocatedafter the belly and before the stinger, reflects the positive wavesback to the open exhaust port and forces the fresh fuel mixture backinto the combustion chamber as the exhaust port closes. The steeperthe angle the more intense the positive wave and the gentler theangle the less intense. 14-20 degree taper angle. The taper angleprimarily influences the shape of the power curve past the point atwhich maximum power is obtained.

[AZMIDLYF]

Before I forget , vnemous wants to see the "the show" at Gilligan's Island this summer .. :eek: ;) :D

Yes that is true . If they were going to worry about one side being exactly like the other , that would be the place to do it .
As you move farther way from the base of the block , the size , shape , square inch's or exact volume changes . So 1 3/4" might get you closer , your still trying to correct the primary length by changing the collector .. :nonod:

But then , if you consider that the primary length mismatch is worse than these POS headers . Well it would be like FMP winning the Special Olympics , even if he won , he (and these) would still be ******** ... ;)

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.utwfaiIOJsl6dDDuJHtaYgEsEH&pid=Api&w=204&h=181

They call it a "Tuner" but it's just lipstick on a pig basically?? No real major value except pointing things in the right direction?

[XstreamVking]

At the risk of sounding as ignorant as I am on the subject, what about the X ing of the tuner sides to let one bank pull out the gasses from the other? Anyone try this? It is said to work well on automotive systems.

[Chaz]

All the Late model stock's and 410 WOO sprint cars run a 180* exhaust system that you speak of . I'm sure there is more to it than the "sports car" sound they have . It has to help being able to follow the firing order and have one primary vacuum the next one behind it .

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Nsz54dx7DwuKzFfG3QplnAEsDh&pid=Api&P=0&w=237&h=179

I remember in the late 80's there were a couple of Comp gas dragsters that ran a diffuser tube about an inch larger in diameter and four or five inch's long over the outside of the collector exit , held in place by a few short pieces of tubing.
I don't know if it was to keep the air running along the outside from interfering with the exit , or if it was to use the air running between the tubes to help evacuate the collector . In any event , it was short lived .

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Af60phZipFxZZU13NrqmXwEsDh&pid=Api&P=0&w=223&h=168

It looked a little like this .. without the center ....

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.2C8KadQIkILaaEEgtBj9UwEQDl&pid=Api&P=0&w=182&h=154

I was talking to one of my mentors a few weeks back about making both sides of the tuner equal and shortening the center divider . Thinking along the lines that one side would help evacuate the other ... he said , It's worth a try , but I would wrap an extension around the outside , that way if you don't like it you can zizzy wheel a couple tacks , and it's gone .. :thumbsup:

[powerabout]

in a NA 2 stroke its all about the reverse pulse I thought?
Who cares about reverse pulse in a 4 stroke as the piston pushes the gas out?

[Chaz]

They call it a "Tuner" but it's just lipstick on a pig basically?? No real major value except pointing things in the right direction?

No I wouldn't exactly say that , but the outboard exhaust system is definitely stuck in the "Fonzi" era ... :cool:

More from Jennings :


These aspects of sonit wave behavior are employed in the expansion chamber exhaust system to help scavenge the cylinder-and then to prevent charge loss. To illustrate this, let's watch in slow motion the activity in a typical chamber through a single oper- ating cycle: When the exhaust port opens, exhaust gases still under considerable pres- sure are spilled out, and a wave-front starts its march down the exhaust system. After moving a short distance in a parallel-wall tube, this wave reaches the megaphone, more properly called a diffuser. Here, the surrounding walls diverge, and the wave re- acts almost as though it had reached the end of the pipe-except that the diffuser is a much more efficient converter of wave ener- gy. In the diffuser, a lot of the positive-wave energy is inverted-to a negative wave-and is promptly reflected back up the tube to ap ply a vacuum at the exhaust port. This vacu- um is stronger than one might suppose, hav- ing a value of about minus-7.0 psi at its peak. Obviously, it can be of great service in clearing exhaust gases from the cylinder and in hauling the fresh charge up from the crankcase through the transfer ports- which is precisely how it is used in an expan- sion chamber. Now if the exhaust system ended there, as was the case back in the days of the super- charged DKWs and "blooey-pipe" Greeves, this vacuuming effect would be a mixed blessing: anything that will pull exhaust products out of a cylinder will pull the fresh charge right after them. Horsepower being very directly related to the weight of the air/ fuel charge trapped in the cylinder at ex- haust-closing, this side of the megaphone's activity is undesirable.

The angle given the baffle-cone, and that of the diffuser, are selected with an eye toward engine output characteristics. My own preference in angles of divergence, for diffusers, is a low of 6-degrees and a high of 9-degrees. Diffusers tapered at less than 5- degrees, included angle, are almost impossi- ble to accomodate within the available length; those with angles greater than 10-de- grees are inefficient wave inverters and wave energy recovery with them suffers. Re- searchers have shown that maximum diffus- er efficiency occurs with a divergent angle of 8-degrees. However, if you want maximum horsepower and are not concerned about power range, a 9-degree diffuser returns a very strong wave of short duration that will help. Conversely, if you want a broader power range, diffusers having a slower taper will spread the power at some expense to maximum.



So as far as "tuning" goes .. we are limited to either a high strength signal for a short time or a less aggressive signal for a longer duration .

For all practicle purposes , the stock 3.0L "tuner" in nothing more than a straight pipe . So in my eyes it could benefit with a shallow angle divergent cone . Not enough to kill a bunch of bottom - mid range torque ... but just enough of a compromise to kick it on top a little . That's my plan anyway ... :thumbsup:


The Greeves "blooie pipe" looks all to familiar .... :cool:

https://tse2.explicit.bing.net/th?id=OIP.I9tmZcTOu27zLeaQUpKTHgDhEs&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.lmMLQ6VJx01uG1GHweBKoAEsDh&pid=Api&P=0&w=244&h=184

[oldschoolltv]

Old hodaka dirt squirt?

[Chaz]

in a NA 2 stroke its all about the reverse pulse I thought?
Who cares about reverse pulse in a 4 stroke as the piston pushes the gas out?

Never be closed minded to any technology . Everything under the sun is related and intertwined in one way or another .

NA 2 stroke ... the only time I hear that term is in reference to a GMC diesel . It obviously means something different to you .. ???

Reverse .. ???

Positive = in

Negative = out

So , a farmer has his water well by the road . he has one sprinkler 100 yards away and the other 500 yards away .

When the pump is activated , which sprinkler will spray first .. ???

How does he get them to fan the same amount of water ..???

[powerabout]

I guess you need in cyl pressure sensor to mod an exhaust then you get the answers

[Chaz]

Old hodaka dirt squirt?

With the frame painted red and the polished tank it sure looks like one .. LOL

But it is a late 50's - early 60's Greeves . They came with the up pipe . The "trick" of the day was to add the bottom exit "blooie pipe" ... :thumbsup:

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.mFQ8T9XC7GNEmywLwLAXlwEsDh&pid=Api&P=0&w=244&h=184

[powerabout]

Never be closed minded to any technology . Everything under the sun is related and intertwined in one way or another .

NA 2 stroke ... the only time I hear that term is in reference to a GMC diesel . It obviously means something different to you .. ???

Reverse .. ???

Positive = in

Negative = out

So , a farmer has his water well by the road . he has one sprinkler 100 yards away and the other 500 yards away .

When the pump is activated , which sprinkler will spray first .. ???

How does he get them to fan the same amount of water ..???
NA? same to me as you but lots of 2 stroke turbo sleds out there now
happy just to say 2 stroke, yes its all connected from the air in front of the induction to the air at the end of the pipe

Farmer has to get the same pressure to the spray nozzle on both sprays when they are working

[Chaz]

I guess you need in cyl pressure sensor to mod an exhaust then you get the answers

Don't forget one in the air-cleaner , fanuchi distribution valve and afterburner !

[AZMIDLYF]

So nobody has played with tuners on a dyno? Or is the amount of gain just not worth the effort?

[powerabout]

So nobody has played with tuners on a dyno? Or is the amount of gain just not worth the effort?
sure they have but in a typical v outboard the chest is where I guess its lost as thats not the optimal design when you look at other multi cyl 2 strokes
The Late Dr Blair did lots of study trying to measure the pressure waves in an engine Do you have his books?
One shows a photo of about 50 pressure sensors in a row along the exhaust.
Add that to a high speed datalogger and more pressure sensors in the engine and you get some info on what is happening

[Chaz]

So nobody has played with tuners on a dyno? Or is the amount of gain just not worth the effort?

I can't think of anyone with more to gain or money to spend than Mother Mercury herself . The 280 tuner is at the top of the heap and if you follow Dr. Blair's numbers , you will see that from the center cylinders exhaust port sleeve to the transition (adapter plate ) from rectangle to oval is the correct length for a header pipe . And the cone follows taper and length for a proper sized diffuser .
Like I said , Fonzi era mentality , where you are forced to pick the center two holes as a bull's-eye and let the top and bottom be your "fliers" .
I have always been more of a Jennings fan than Blair , only for the simple reason that Jennings is more practical , while Blair is more computational ...

http://www.dragonfly75.com/motorbike/2StrokeDesign.pdf

[AZMIDLYF]

Thanks for the PDF Chaz.

Theory to Practice...both have their place. You are the lucky one that gets to do both. :cheers:

[FMP]

http://members.iinet.net.au/~pauldawson/iame37_2-s_exhausts.PDF
short little read

[NICE PAIR]

I'm gonna go eat breakfast ......... It's something I understand. :thumbsup:

[XstreamVking]

Now I understand why my old Bridgeport ate so much fuel and spit so much out. THE TUNER!

[powerabout]

http://members.iinet.net.au/~pauldawson/iame37_2-s_exhausts.PDF
short little read
Paul Dawson, one of my mentors from OMC Australia

[powerabout]

I can't think of anyone with more to gain or money to spend than Mother Mercury herself . The 280 tuner is at the top of the heap and if you follow Dr. Blair's numbers , you will see that from the center cylinders exhaust port sleeve to the transition (adapter plate ) from rectangle to oval is the correct length for a header pipe . And the cone follows taper and length for a proper sized diffuser .
Like I said , Fonzi era mentality , where you are forced to pick the center two holes as a bull's-eye and let the top and bottom be your "fliers" .
I have always been more of a Jennings fan than Blair , only for the simple reason that Jennings is more practical , while Blair is more computational ...
I wonder what is lost doing the transitions from the chest to rectangular then back to oval like the port?

[Chaz]

I'm gonna go eat breakfast ......... It's something I understand. :thumbsup:

Actually that fits right in to the subject .... since ya hafta break some egg's to make an omelet ... :smiletest:


AZ sez :

Theory to Practice...both have their place.

Theory is good to keep from repeating the same mistakes over and over again . It can also be a guide down a bumpy road . However way to many get stuck in this phase (tech-lock) and never accomplish anything of their own .

The difference between theory and reality ....

A young boy asks his father what the difference is between the two .
The father says I'm glad you asked , follow me and listen .

The man ask's his wife , honey , would you sleep with Brad Pitt for 10 million dollars ?
The wife responds , well honey , we could use the money ... so , yes I would .

Next he asks his daughter the same thing , she quickly answers , Ohh yes , in a heartbeat .

Then he asks his eldest son the same question .. the older boy says , that's a lot of money , yes I would .

The father turn , looks at his youngest and says ... you see son ......
In theory , we are multi millionaires .
In reality , we live with two hoe's a *** ... see the difference .. ;)

[mercace]

Chaz ( my son ) also invented the internet. Not Al Gore

[Chaz]

Good morning dad .... :thumbsup:

I'd love to take credit for that , but if family history serves me correctly .........>
It was my Uncle B_ _ who was instrumental in that development .. :eek: :D

Chaz = been ta two company Christmas parties this weekend .
Expensive catering , and not one *^%&% canoli' in sight .... :nonod: :o

[vnemous]

394744

[Chaz]

Now that's the place to be for a party size canoli' .... :thumbsup:

Chaz = thinking I'm always @ the airport when my ship comes in ... :o

[mercace]

Good morning dad .... :thumbsup:

I'd love to take credit for that , but if family history serves me correctly .........>
It was my Uncle B_ _ who was instrumental in that development .. :eek: :D

Chaz = been ta two company Christmas parties this weekend .
Expensive catering , and not one *^%&% canoli' in sight .... :nonod: :o
Now now. Don’t be modest! Uncle B__ may have helped you a little bit.

[Chaz]

Now now. Don’t be modest! Uncle B__ may have helped you a little bit.

Then Uncle _ _ _ must have helped himself to my royalty checks as well ... :eek: :iagree: :D

[vnemous]

I thought your Uncle B__ invented BBQ

[Capt.Insane-o]

in a NA 2 stroke its all about the reverse pulse I thought?
Who cares about reverse pulse in a 4 stroke as the piston pushes the gas out?

There is this thing, valve overlap that if corrected for correctly with the proper exhaust system aids in cylinder filling. But I digress.

[Chaz]

I thought your Uncle B__ invented BBQ

Well yes , that too .... Uncle BBQ


What did you think Uncle B_ _ meant .. ??? :D :D :D

[powerabout]

There is this thing, valve overlap that if corrected for correctly with the proper exhaust system aids in cylinder filling. But I digress.
by scavenging not by stuffing charge back in, I assume you mean?
Like a bbq, good scvenging good to start with 4 stroke
if you want a smoker you need to stuff it back in 2 stroke

[Chaz]

Power , I realize that sometimes there is a language barrier that has you post things which seem way out in left field . But I can honestly say , you have never been at such a loss for words that you had to resort to the 4th grade playground to try to communicate ... :thumbsup:
Can you guess the identities of the other two technical misfits .... ;)

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.3XlWaXVyIWH-yNvoGVnSTAHaEy&pid=Api&P=0&w=324&h=210

[powerabout]

I was just going with the bbq theme....

so a good 2 stroke exhaust makes power by scavenging or by the reverse pulse?

[Chaz]

I was just going with the bbq theme....

LOL ... OK brother , fair enough .. :D



so a good 2 stroke exhaust makes power by scavenging or by the reverse pulse?

You'll have to define "good 2 stroke" ... :confused:

It's application , fuel type .. etc .

Back on post # 85 I wrote ( asked with a question mark ) Reverse ?

And then If that meant Positive or negative to you ??? You never answered .

Nor did you answer how the farmer kept the pressure the same at both sprinklers . Nor did you cover which will spray first and why in your response in post # 88 .

Quite honestly , I think most people get caught up in exactly what " a returning negative wave" actually means . Somehow get stuck thinking it is the same as a "positive wave" and bog down multiple threads .
I've tried for months ... not really willing to stay tech-locked with those that can't figure out which way the wind blows ... :thumbsup:

Chaz = thinking ..........

Cold air

Mix and Mis-match injectors

Mega Squit # 3 Pro's

Aluminum flywheels

Billet reed Blocks

Billet Tuners

Film coming soon ..... ;)

[powerabout]

I'm talking outboards so its megaphone exhaust and not expansion chambers

Positive is exhaust out
Negative is reflected wave back into the cylinder

Post 88 I said the farmer has to maintain the same pressure at each sprinkler to ensure spray is the same
Which will spray first will depend on the pressure created by the line resistance at the volume being sent down it versus the pressure required to make the sprinkler spray so could be either depending on the size/resistance of that connecting pipe

[HStream1]

Well Well??? I see Im being mentioned here without my knowledge??? Sense my Internet server has been completely down for over two weeks I had to rely on my Phone for everything. Which deterred me greatly, Plus I had over 40 Custom Yeti Tumblers to powdercoat before Christmas and no two were alike so doing them in bulk was out of the question.

Now to focus on some of the previous comments :D

[HStream1]

:rolleyes:HUM??? maybe that's why I cant get something Fabricated??? I provided a detailed drawing with precise measurements!!! NOTE to self. Use a paper napkin next time :nonod:


I remember when you were making headers working off a napkin drawing from Flanigans and when the pipes wouldnt line up you realized it was a rice, bean and BBQ stain.:D Good Times

[HStream1]

Yea wasn't that the truth until that package arrived the other day.:confused: Then all of a sudden you start communicating with me in a normal way again:eek:


Im only talking to uncle bud in memes and gifs so it makes it very hard to communicate:D

[HStream1]

Yea Good suggestion Charlie!!! Ill throw Mikeys up on the mill table and hand drill them. With Uncle Buds calibrated eye balls no Jig needed ;):nonod:

QUOTE=Chaz;3007184]I almost forgot , check and see if Uncle Bud has any he needs done , you can stop to pick his up and then do them all of them at once .. :D[/QUOTE]

[HStream1]

If that were true Bro my internet wouldn't have been down for two weeks straight:mad:. And We both would be filthy rich living in the south of France. Then Mikey and Daddy George could come visit. Fullers Marine could close and Mikey wouldn't have his beloved Injector machine to sit in front of two days a week.:D


Good morning dad .... :thumbsup:

I'd love to take credit for that , but if family history serves me correctly .........>
It was my Uncle B_ _ who was instrumental in that development .. :eek: :D

[HStream1]

HUM??? Well Im still waiting? Maybe that's why we aren't living in the south of France:rolleyes:

Then Uncle _ _ _ must have helped himself to my royalty checks as well ... :eek: :iagree: :D

[HStream1]

Now Mikey you know that's only partially true. I sent you a picture of Sonny Tillman (Founder of Your beloved Sonnys BBQ) Helping my Dad at our annual BBQ. So It was my Dad that invented BBQ and taught Sonny and me everything we know. Except I mastered the Dry Rub and sauces. Sonny went to the Dark side, started making a Catsup based sauce :icon_bs: and catered to the Tourist when he relocated to Gainesville Fla back in 1968 and opened the first Sonnys BBQ.

Sonny and Dad flipping the Pig.
395048
Sonny Basting while Dad works on Hickory coals.
395049


I thought your Uncle B__ invented BBQ

[Chaz]

Whewwww ... just got back from the South of France . Thanks daddy Goerge ... Mikey and I had a great time on the French Riviera ... :D

Next time we need to invite Uncle BBQ . Cuz I like's me some Ribs ~n~Fries from Sonny's .... :thumbsup:

I just cant like that .. Su-su-fu-flay-la-vuu they tried to feed us over there ... :nonod:

Got Okra .... :eek:

Hey ... pass me a napkin and one of them kiddie crayon packs please .... :p :D

[HStream1]

There ya go typing in your sleep again. Youre wake up time is still 45 minutes away :confused:


Whewwww ... just got back from the South of France . Thanks daddy Goerge ... Mikey and I had a great time on the French Riviera ... :D

Next time we need to invite Uncle BBQ . Cuz I like's me some Ribs ~n~Fries from Sonny's .... :thumbsup:

I just cant like that .. Su-su-fu-flay-la-vuu they tried to feed us over there ... :nonod:

Got Okra .... :eek:

Hey ... pass me a napkin and one of them kiddie crayon packs please .... :p :D

[Chaz]

I'm talking outboards so its megaphone exhaust and not expansion chambers

Positive is exhaust out
Negative is reflected wave back into the cylinder

Chaz = thinking , I promised myself I would not do this again .
I will try to keep this brief but there are a few key points that need to be made .

#1 ) Your mentor and FuMP are basically idiots . Nothing personal , just the truth based on false facts of the "short little read" . So try and not let that cloud your vision .

#2 ) Talking outboard's and only straight pipe / megaphone ... so there should be no confusion of a "RETURNING POSITIVE PRESSURE WAVE".

#3 ) Positive wave out ... Lets call that a SHOCK WAVE . The "shock" part of it is a high pressure area . The "wave" part is a movement containing "peaks and valleys"

#4 ) Negative ( that alone should tell you there is no pressure ) is not "reflective" . Reflective would mean it would be a positive .
It is actually a RAREFACTION wave ( self similar ) that will always follow a shock wave . If you look at the GIF below you will be able to see that none of the lines leave the picture on the left side wall . If you were to add a ( divergent ) megaphone shape to the right side you would see that the lines would bend at the same angle as the megaphone . That action would be , sweep , pull , scavenge , vacuum , evacuate.
As mentioned in Jennings text , the greater the angle the more intense but shorter lived the signal will become .


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Onde_compression_impulsion_1d_30_petit.gif (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Onde_compression_impulsion_1d_30_petit.gif)




Post 88 I said the farmer has to maintain the same pressure at each sprinkler to ensure spray is the same
Which will spray first will depend on the pressure created by the line resistance at the volume being sent down it versus the pressure required to make the sprinkler spray so could be either depending on the size/resistance of that connecting pipe

The water will follow the path of least resistance . Which would be to go to the end of the line and build pressure back to the source. Basic hydraulics ... ;)

#5 ) The only way to keep pressure over the long span is to reduce the conduit's diameter as you move away from the source .
Just as the only way to lower the pressure is to open up the pipe .. err .. conduit as you move away from the shockwave ... err ... pump .

That's about as simple as I know how to explain it .

[vnemous]

395060

[powerabout]

So my mentor ( an OMC/BRP Engineer) that was explaining the Etec 2 cyl and v4 showing a ton of engineering was spent on getting the reverse pulse/wave to work ( are we calling that positive pressure wave?) was all wasted money as they should have come to your workshop with your in cylinder pressure monitoring equipment on your dyno to become educated as you did?
Your mentor Jennings and his equipment (what was that) learnt what he could and that was cutting edge but that was 30 years ago and never looked at an outboard as far I can see?
I learnt a bit from Phil Irving but that was a while ago too.

What do those MSD water flow valves kits do to the exhaust on 2 stroke jet skis?

#5 ) The only way to keep pressure over the long span is to reduce the conduit's diameter as you move away from the source .
Just as the only way to lower the pressure is to open up the pipe .. err .. conduit as you move away from the shockwave ... err ... pump .

Two ways to skin a cat, if the pipe is big ( so line speed and resistance is not a factor) you can have the same pressure at each nozzle, basic hydraulics. ( just like the fuel manifold on most EFI engines is trying to achieve, are they tapered?)

[davemvegas]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Onde_compression_impulsion_1d_30_petit.gif (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Onde_compression_impulsion_1d_30_petit.gif) Charlie you owe me 42 mins of my life back. That is how long a stared at the lines waiting for something to happen.

[Chaz]

So my mentor ( an OMC/BRP Engineer) that was explaining the Etec 2 cyl and v4 showing a ton of engineering was spent on getting the reverse pulse/wave to work ( are we calling that positive pressure wave?) was all wasted money as they should have come to your workshop with your in cylinder pressure monitoring equipment on your dyno to become educated as you did?
Your mentor Jennings and his equipment (what was that) learnt what he could and that was cutting edge but that was 30 years ago and never looked at an outboard as far I can see?
I learnt a bit from Phil Irving but that was a while ago too.

What do those MSD water flow valves kits do to the exhaust on 2 stroke jet skis?

#5 ) The only way to keep pressure over the long span is to reduce the conduit's diameter as you move away from the source .
Just as the only way to lower the pressure is to open up the pipe .. err .. conduit as you move away from the shockwave ... err ... pump .

Two ways to skin a cat, if the pipe is big ( so line speed and resistance is not a factor) you can have the same pressure at each nozzle, basic hydraulics. ( just like the fuel manifold on most EFI engines is trying to achieve, are they tapered?)


Couldn't make it past #1 ) I see .

E-Tec .... ???? I was hoping you would get a grasp on the correct terminology , it's meaning and the affects on 1 single cylinder before diving into multi cylinders , lay-outs and the different ways they interact ....:nonod:

Ohh well , I tried ... :thumbsup:




Charlie you owe me 42 mins of my life back. That is how long a stared at the lines waiting for something to happen.

I know your time away from Burger King is worth way more ... but can I get you a large "boiled peanuts" @ Lil-Jim's and we call it even ... ??? :D

BTW ... That map that vnemous posted is the directions to Gilligan's Island .. you'll see I didn't let him get your parking spot ... ;)

[AZMIDLYF]

So with the gobs of torque that your strokers already have, are you just tuning your Blunderbuss for the high end? :cool:

[vnemous]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Onde_compression_impulsion_1d_30_petit.gif (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Onde_compression_impulsion_1d_30_petit.gif) Charlie you owe me 42 mins of my life back. That is how long a stared at the lines waiting for something to happen.
Awwww Dave so close, you wont believe what happens at 45 minutes:D

[powerabout]

Couldn't make it past #1 ) I see .

E-Tec .... ???? I was hoping you would get a grasp on the correct terminology , it's meaning and the affects on 1 single cylinder before diving into multi cylinders , lay-outs and the different ways they interact ....:nonod:

Ohh well , I tried ... :thumbsup:


This being an outboard engine web site and mainly v6 how about we keep the conversation to 3 cyl connected exhausts and I dont see any of the non outboard 2 stroke experts having experience with that so hypotheticals on single cylinder expansion chamber engines ( where there are millions of articles) are as useful as a chocolate tea pot in this conversation.
I do see you are keen for correct terminology but wasted 100 posts with the price is right question time just to get there.
How about you list the actions and the terms so we can all be on the same page?

[Chaz]

So with the gobs of torque that your strokers already have, are you just tuning your Blunderbuss for the high end? :cool:

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Ztfszy6LE47PBZxzjLlrOwHNCH&pid=Api&P=0&w=539&h=159

Blunderbuss .... LMAO , That's such an accurate descriptive ... :D
I have always looked at this as my "family" boat . And even though every single part and piece has been rubbed on , none of it was done to shorten it's fuse .
And unless I "riding" with Davie ( keep in mind , he'll quit racing ya , turn around and chase someone down to race them , then come back after ya again ) then I just want something that is reliable , pulls hard down low and thru the middle and will run 100 mph for as long as I want . If you think about it , none of us run with the tounge hanging out of them all the time .
I have had cars with too much cam for the converter , just miserable to drive . If anything now , I err on the side of being to conservative .
These two powerheads are 3462 cc and use regular 3.0L cranks . My dad ( LOL ) Fuller Sr. did make me a great on a pair of 3.2 cranks a while back . They are going in the next set that I am doing that will be 180+ cc bigger .
I have another one to do that is just a mild port job , clean-up bore the "dreaded towel trick" to the block . I spent pretty good money on parts to make that whole thing happen , so naturally I anxious to see if that's something I want to put out there .. or put in the scrap bin ...
BTW , don't know if you were aware , Bob Glidden passed away Monday . The world lost a really sharp dude when we lost him .

[olboatman]

No I hadn't heard that Chaz(losing Bob) as he was one of my Drag racing heros. Didn't he hold the record for round wins(Pro that is) in NHRA?
Quite a feat considering how they had to drive those PS cars back then!
Gary

[davemvegas]

And unless I "riding" with Davie ( keep in mind , he'll quit racing ya , turn around and chase someone down to race them , then come back after ya again ) then I just want something that is reliable , pulls hard down low and thru the middle and will run 100 mph for as long as I want . If you think about it , none of us run with the tongue hanging out of them all the time

Charlie. I do remember a day that you went under the Jensen causeway a few boat lengths in front of me. You did the old Billy Burnrubber move on me and stole the wiggle. About 18 miles later when you let off early i had already closed the gap from 3 boat lengths to 2 1/2 lengths. I think i would have caught you if you run the full race to the Vero beach bridge. I think your 7000 rpm 300x motors were giving you a big advantage. Every 10 miles we ran. You burned 3 times the gas that my Opti-Turds burn. Thinking back. I should have tossed Lisa at the 10 mile mark to even the load.

[AZMIDLYF]

Yes Chaz I knew we had lost another Icon from our era.

http://www.dragzine.com/news/breaking-pro-stock-legend-bob-glidden-passes-away-at-73/

Always loved the brake creep with the big cams. Funny you say how you are more conservative. The warden, as you say, keeps asking me if I'm going to get a sports car when my 10yr old daily driver needs replacing. Ehhh, I'm more into comfort and ease of entry these days.

[Chaz]

Awwww Dave so close, you wont believe what happens at 45 minutes:D

I gotta admit , that was a pretty good one ... right there ... :D :D :D


Power :

This being an outboard engine web site and mainly v6 how about we keep the conversation to 3 cyl connected exhausts and I dont see any of the non outboard 2 stroke experts having experience with that so hypotheticals on single cylinder expansion chamber engines ( where there are millions of articles) are as useful as a chocolate tea pot in this conversation.
I do see you are keen for correct terminology but wasted 100 posts with the price is right question time just to get there.
How about you list the actions and the terms so we can all be on the same page?

Pow-pow ,
Just as you can't change your fingerprints or a zebra can't change it's stripes , a two strokes basic principals will remain the same .
One must know the proper terminology and it's definition in order to communicate .
I have went out of my to eliminate the "holding tank back to the stinger" portion of the workings of an expansion chamber . Which only leaves the header (log) pipe and divergent (tuner) cone and you tell me , expansion chambers and those who build / write about them don't count .
Soooo ,
I go outside the box to use parables such as , sound , air , water , all of which use the same fluid dynamic principals in movement . Also , to no avail .
At this point , I have no idea what you are looking for . But if you want to skip the basics and go off the cliff of lumping all V- 6 outboards with different log / tuner / 60*-90* split configurations , their interactions and effects on each other , into one set in stone pat answer . I think your going to be disappointed with the results .


Davie sez :

Charlie. I do remember a day that you went under the Jensen causeway a few boat lengths in front of me. You did the old Billy Burnrubber move on me and stole the wiggle. About 18 miles later when you let off early i had already closed the gap from 3 boat lengths to 2 1/2 lengths. I think i would have caught you if you run the full race to the Vero beach bridge. I think your 7000 rpm 300x motors were giving you a big advantage. Every 10 miles we ran. You burned 3 times the gas that my Opti-Turds burn. Thinking back. I should have tossed Lisa at the 10 mile mark to even the load.

Billy Burnrubber also taught me to just hold ya by a fender ... ;)

Ya know , after about 5 miles ... I started thinkin - I hope Mama Lisa don't throw his big azz out ... cuz then my ol 100,000 mile 225's wouldn't have nuttin for her . :eek:

Brandon and I never laughed so ******* hard as when the warden was introducing our new daughter-in-law to your wife ... and a I/O Donzi rode past and in the middle of introductions you fired up and chased him down with that ol Vegas you had .. :thumbsup:

OlBoat / MidLife ,
That's why I split my time being too old and tryin to be young again ... cuz we never know what tomorrow brings ...

[powerabout]

Chaz
I 'm keen to learn but following your posts is a tough job.
60 and 90* v6 all have same firing order ( i think? lets not talk xflow) and they all group the cylinders in each bank. ( hard not to)
Sure expansion chamber stuff has been around for a long time and the effects well known as lots of proven measured data.
Way back you were discussing your observation that the bottom cyls get a hard time as they are generally the dead ones and you were posting your idea's on why that is, can we take it up from there?
I think you were about to discuss a better exhaust design?

[Chaz]

Well before I went to lunch , I looked in the sand box and found this thing floatin around in there ...

https://i.imgur.com/Cqwcplzl.jpg

I thought I had a bunch rubber points to finish my blocks .. Got 6 done ... 6 to go , no points ... :rolleyes:

https://i.imgur.com/nLAZ7hIl.jpg

I ordered a new set .. Lord knows when they will show up ... :o

However I gotz a ringer on my side ... "Uncle BBQ" threw a 25 pack in the mail for me ... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Unsupervised .. I think I might have ate too much leftovers for lunch .. :eek: :nonod:
Catholic Carol stopped by last night and left us with a big Tupperware of her world famous Sausage , peppers and Onions .... I think I'll go take a nap and wait on the post man ... ;) :D

https://i.imgur.com/6QvV3Aul.jpg

[vnemous]

Pretty small plate:D

[HStream1]

Here Charlie I fixed it for ya ;)





I thought I had a bunch rubber points to finish my blocks .. Got 6 done ... 6 to go , no points ... :rolleyes:



I ordered a new set .. Lord knows when they will show up ... :o

However I gotz a ringer on my side ... "Uncle Bud The BBQ Master" threw a 25 pack in the mail for me ... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Unsupervised .. I think I might have ate too much leftovers for lunch .. :eek: :nonod:
Catholic Carol stopped by last night and left us with a big Tupperware of her world famous Sausage , peppers and Onions .... I think I'll go take a nap and wait on the post man ... ;) :D

https://i.imgur.com/6QvV3Aul.jpg

[vnemous]

Uncle Bud threw something in the mail for me also but we are afraid to open it much less keep it in the same room. My daughters both wont go near it:D

[AZMIDLYF]

Fork in the picture for scale? :eek:

[HStream1]

But you told me it was placed under the Christmas tree and no one has touched it when I told you the package had a un authorized motion violation? Regardless i know the suspense is killing you. So be careful Mikey. Make sure to open it from the bottom not the top. ;)


Uncle Bud threw something in the mail for me also but we are afraid to open it much less keep it in the same room. My daughters both wont go near it:D

[Chaz]

Fork in the picture for scale? :eek:

I have class ... :nonod:

I don't eat with my hands .. :rolleyes:

And .. I couldn't find my favorite screwdriver ... :D

[AZMIDLYF]

I would have hibernated after that portion. Does look tasty though. :cheers:

[Chaz]

I would have hibernated after that portion. Does look tasty though. :cheers:

After a 2 1/2 hour nap , I went back to whittle some parts ... a short time later the "warden" said .. whewww , we had a busy day .. how was yours ... very fulfilling dear ;)


Uncle Bud The BBQ Master


Aye , next time you come stay across the river @ cousin Mikey's you'll have to have us over for some BBQ ... :thumbsup:

But I gotta warn ya ... I gotta black lady from Memphis on staff , who gotz nuttin good to say bout eastern Carolina ribs ... :eek:

Matter of fact , the OMC master has been sending up some mighty fine signals out of his new smoker ... :D

Dayum ... I just finished breakfast and I'm hungry all over again ... ;) :)



Chaz
I 'm keen to learn but following your posts is a tough job.
60 and 90* v6 all have same firing order ( i think? lets not talk xflow) and they all group the cylinders in each bank. ( hard not to)
Sure expansion chamber stuff has been around for a long time and the effects well known as lots of proven measured data.
Way back you were discussing your observation that the bottom cyls get a hard time as they are generally the dead ones and you were posting your idea's on why that is, can we take it up from there?
I think you were about to discuss a better exhaust design?

Pow-pow ,

NEVER once have I mentioned expansion chambers .. you on the other hand , have mentioned them after every post I make . I told you I give up .. you win :thumbsup:

Yep , A 90* bubble back OMC and 60* Merc have the exact same "primary" exit angle / length / path ... just don't tell FuMP , he'll go back to 1970 and call the patent police .

I did say I was working on a few idea's to help the bottom holes stay alive . I also said I wasn't talking about it or posting picture's ... but good try .. :D

OK , Here's a hint .. Why do birds build nests , beavers build dams , lobsters hide in coral rocks ... ?

[powerabout]

After a 2 1/2 hour nap , I went back to whittle some parts ... a short time later the "warden" said .. whewww , we had a busy day .. how was yours ... very fulfilling dear ;)



Aye , next time you come stay across the river @ cousin Mikey's you'll have to have us over for some BBQ ... :thumbsup:

But I gotta warn ya ... I gotta black lady from Memphis on staff , who gotz nuttin good to say bout eastern Carolina ribs ... :eek:

Matter of fact , the OMC master has been sending up some mighty fine signals out of his new smoker ... :D

Dayum ... I just finished breakfast and I'm hungry all over again ... ;) :) [/COLOR]



Pow-pow ,

NEVER once have I mentioned expansion chambers .. you on the other hand , have mentioned them after every post I make . I told you I give up .. you win :thumbsup:

Yep , A 90* bubble back OMC and 60* Merc have the exact same "primary" exit angle / length / path ... just don't tell FuMP , he'll go back to 1970 and call the patent police .

I did say I was working on a few idea's to help the bottom holes stay alive . I also said I wasn't talking about it or posting picture's ... but good try .. :D

OK , Here's a hint .. Why do birds build nests , beavers build dams , lobsters hide in coral rocks ... ?
because Birds can fly, Beavers can swim and Lobster can breathe underwater?

"NEVER once have I mentioned expansion chambers .. you on the other hand , have mentioned them after every post I make"

PS you mentioned expansion in post 78, 83, twice in 135 stating how important the technology is , are you running for governor?
I mentioned it in post 113 and saying it doesnt apply to outboards and again in 136 saying yes good data but....

[HStream1]

Ya Know. John Wright Tried a six individual expansion chamber set up to a modified divider plate once. Did I Mention ONCE :rolleyes:

OH and I do a Memphis Dry Rub Ribs Just saying ;)


After a 2 1/2 hour nap , I went back to whittle some parts ... a short time later the "warden" said .. whewww , we had a busy day .. how was yours ... very fulfilling dear ;)



Aye , next time you come stay across the river @ cousin Mikey's you'll have to have us over for some BBQ ... :thumbsup:

But I gotta warn ya ... I gotta black lady from Memphis on staff , who gotz nuttin good to say bout eastern Carolina ribs ... :eek:

Matter of fact , the OMC master has been sending up some mighty fine signals out of his new smoker ... :D

Dayum ... I just finished breakfast and I'm hungry all over again ... ;) :) [/COLOR]



Pow-pow ,

NEVER once have I mentioned expansion chambers .. you on the other hand , have mentioned them after every post I make . I told you I give up .. you win :thumbsup:

Yep , A 90* bubble back OMC and 60* Merc have the exact same "primary" exit angle / length / path ... just don't tell FuMP , he'll go back to 1970 and call the patent police .

I did say I was working on a few idea's to help the bottom holes stay alive . I also said I wasn't talking about it or posting picture's ... but good try .. :D

OK , Here's a hint .. Why do birds build nests , beavers build dams , lobsters hide in coral rocks ... ?

[RBT]

Ya Know. John Wright Tried a six individual expansion chamber set up to a modified divider plate once. Did I Mention ONCE :rolleyes:

OH and I do a Memphis Dry Rub Ribs Just saying ;)
Do you mean john Lentzkow?

[vnemous]

No he meant Jon Wright owner/driver of Tinker Toy Fastest Drag Outboard Record holder.

http://www.powercatboat.com/ODBR/TinkerToy/2001_JW.html

[HStream1]

There I fixed it for you Sir. ;)


No he Said Jon Wright owner/driver of Tinker Toy Fastest Drag Outboard Record holder.

http://www.powercatboat.com/ODBR/TinkerToy/2001_JW.html

[RBT]

No he meant Jon Wright owner/driver of Tinker Toy Fastest Drag Outboard Record holder.

http://www.powercatboat.com/ODBR/TinkerToy/2001_JW.html

i am very well aware of Jon Wright, I witnessed it run a few times. Sat in it etc.
Attached is Lentzkows pipes

[vnemous]

Glad your aware I was just telling you who he meant since you asked. We just happen to have both Jon's table top dynos, this one and the Contraptions which is totally self contained.395263

[RBT]

I was not aware Jon made real pipes for his merc. Anyone have pics.
Should add that Land and Sea also made pipes, though I feel like they worked much like most of the items the pawned off.

[vnemous]

I took a pic of the OMC with the turbo and pipes when we picked up the dynos. Im trying to figure out what I did with it. He had lots of unfinished projects going on when he passed away. RIP Jon

[RBT]

I have a pic somewhere of the omc turbo project.
That aside, I’ve for the last
few years really wanted to find a land and sea turbo to play with. Fuel injection would be a giant leap forward

[AZMIDLYF]

395269

:o

[Chaz]

because Birds can fly, Beavers can swim and Lobster can breathe underwater?

All true ... :rolleyes:



"NEVER once have I mentioned expansion chambers .. you on the other hand , have mentioned them after every post I make"

PS you mentioned expansion in post 78, 83, twice in 135 stating how important the technology is , are you running for governor?
I mentioned it in post 113 and saying it doesnt apply to outboards and again in 136 saying yes good data but....

Of course , if you read the peripherals you would see that it was used in the context of helping you in identifying and labeling different sections of an outboards exhaust system .
Borrowing Uncle BBQ's coloring book :
You wanted Hellery to win , I can tell !

[FMP]

Hey Chaz , Merry Christmas.

[powerabout]

Merry Christmas Chaz

Quick question, do the bottom pistons get hammered the same on LH and RH powerheads?

Best wishes for the new year

Hillary lol.... I would donate money to get the clintons in jail

[AZMIDLYF]

So Chaz, the collector on the 2 stroke is basically acting like a collector on a header for a 4 stroke? Getting the negative wave to hit the port at the right time?

I have another question on another topic. :confused:
Why do I see the varied length venturi on the Brucato slides?

395278

[Chaz]

So Chaz, the collector on the 2 stroke is basically acting like a collector on a header for a 4 stroke? Getting the negative wave to hit the port at the right time?

Yes , they will both continue to evacuate ( negative wave) until a converging
( positive wave ) section is added .

https://i.imgur.com/SogIYaJl.jpg


I have another question on another topic. :confused:
Why do I see the varied length venturi on the Brucato slides?

I can only assume that it's a further use of the "object in motion" rule of physics to try and somehow use the added length on the intake side to make up for the gross difference of primary length of the exhaust conduits .


Power:

Quick question, do the bottom pistons get hammered the same on LH and RH powerheads?


Only in Canada , Singapore and Oz .
Here is a detailed explanation of this phenomena ....>


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcLZ3of_Zjg

Just happened to stop by my buddy's shop this afternoon ... who'd a thunk it ... catered in BBQ ... :thumbsup:

Merry Christmas everyone ... !!!!

https://i.imgur.com/U2XwzQ5l.jpg

[HStream1]

I or no one said Jon Made Pipes. I said he tried Expansion Chambers ONCE.


I was not aware Jon made real pipes for his merc. Anyone have pics.
Should add that Land and Sea also made pipes, though I feel like they worked much like most of the items the pawned off.

[AZMIDLYF]

Wait...what...conversion on a 4 stroke? Thought the positive wave was timed to hit the 2 stroke port around what, 40* before closing, to keep the good stuff from leaving the party with the burnt? Thought cams and valves pretty much took care of this on 4 strokes? I wish I had paid more attention in Physics class. :nonod:

[noli]

.



want to learn about the 4 strokes (as well as the 2 strokes) also....

has anyone tried putting a Japanese 4 cylinder alum car engine, supercharge it and bolt onto outboard mid+lower?





.

[Chaz]

Thought the positive wave was timed to hit the 2 stroke port around what, 40* before closing, to keep the good stuff from leaving the party with the burnt?



Getting the negative wave to hit the port at the right time?


Make up my mind , is in out or in in and out in ... I have always preferred the old fashioned in and out ... ;)



Wait...what...conversion on a 4 stroke?
Thought cams and valves pretty much took care of this on 4 strokes? I wish I had paid more attention in Physics class. :nonod:

I wasn't aware we were "converting" anything either ... ?

How do you deal with the spilt milk of the "fifth cycle" ... ?

[Chaz]

.



want to learn about the 4 strokes (as well as the 2 strokes) also....

has anyone tried putting a Japanese 4 cylinder alum car engine, supercharge it and bolt onto outboard mid+lower?

.

Don't know about hanging one on the outside , but they seen to work pretty good laying down on the inside ... ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJlCSjEr-ls

[AZMIDLYF]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeZhEBY8eVg

[AZMIDLYF]

Supra motor? Never heard one loping like that though...especially with a turbo.

[Chaz]

#1 ) Can someone name the five basic components of an "expansion*chamber" ?

#2 ) Can someone explain the function of each component ?

#3 ) Can someone name the two basic components of an outboards exhaust ?

#4 ) Can someone explain the function of each component ?

#5 ) Can someone identify any overlapping functions of these components ?





* The use of the words "expansion*chamber" is meant for identification purposes only . Any further use of these words , be they expressed , written or implied , must have written permission in triplicate form from torque engineering , erv kanamoto , stuart toomy , kel carruthers , spec 2 and daryl bassani ... :D

[AZMIDLYF]

Warden has me on task today but, I will give the "expansion chamber" a noob shot.

Chamber has 2 cones: divergent & convergent, angles and lengths of cones play into timing of waves, inlet and outlet pipe sizes guessing also play roles. Divergent cone expands flow and creates a low pressure wave back to port to draw out more exhaust, convergent cone compresses flow and sends a pressure wave back to port at the right time to keep the incoming fuel/air from exiting the exhaust port. Macro world here of course...:o

[vnemous]

1. very dry ricotta
2. granulated sugar
3. vanilla
4. Chocolate chips
5. Cannoli shells

[AZMIDLYF]

No bribing the teacher. :nonod:

[vnemous]

It will make his chamber expand:D

[AZMIDLYF]

2 stroke or 4? :leaving:

[vnemous]

You guys keep talking about Wardens and its is making me feel like Im back at work
395344

[noli]

.



#1 ) Can someone name the five basic components of an "expansion*chamber" ?

#2 ) Can someone explain the function of each component ?




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_chamber


Arbeitsweise_Zweitakt.gif (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Arbeitsweise_Zweitakt.gif)




I'm not sure but I will give this a shot. The five components are listed below. This is not complete and may contain errors.
Please show same concepts on an outboard motor.


The Expansion chamber depicted

395358





(1) Divergent Section(diffuser). This section increases in diameter. Creates a negative pressure which aids in the sucking in
fresh fuel mixture into cylinder. Brings the exiting exhaust pressure to near-atmospheric level.

395359



(2) (3) Convergent section. The Diameter gets smaller and smaller. This section reflects back a series of acoustic pulses back
to the cylinder. These pulses arrive in a timed manner (thus the reason why this is called a tuned exhaust) back to the
header and cylinder to push back any fresh mixture drawn into the header because the exhaust port is still open during
the compression stroke. A strong acoustic wave (yes, sound!) encountering a decrease in area will reflect a strong acoustic
wave in the opposite direction.

395360



(4) (5) The diameter of the exhaust header and exhaust tail pipes are calculated with a specific formula to aid
in the tuning of the 2-stroke exhaust system.

395361




.

[noli]

.



The link below are instructions to building your own 2-stroke tuned-exhaust pipe. Not really relevant here, since I really would like to see these concepts on an outboard motor.
This is not an easy task, thus you will also need to feed your brain with energy (see pics of canolis, sausages, pasta, etc throughout this thread ;))

Just for fun reading ==> http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-Tuned-pipe-for-a-2-stroke/


395362







.

[noli]

.



home-made external expansion chamber.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMcZvyv9EBs






.

[AZMIDLYF]

Wow, I think my Readers Digest version was pretty spot on. ;)

[noli]

.





#3 ) Can someone name the two basic components of an outboards exhaust ?

#4 ) Can someone explain the function of each component ?




I'm gonna try, and again please correct/add where necessary



The two parts of the outboard exhaust system are:
1. the exhaust cavity in the engine block connected to the adaptor plate
2. the can with the exhaust tuner attached at the top of the can's exhaust cavity

The resonance from the exhaust chamber and tuner (and maybe the water that begins mixing inside the exhaust chamber in the can) are all playing a part in tuning the exhaust to lessen scavenging power from the exhaust port while fresh fuel mix is beginning to exit the exhaust port.

The length and diameter of the tuner plays a part in "Tuning the Exhaust" principle. I watched this video and it explains how to increase the power band by increasing the exhaust port. But not sure if anyone tried this on an outboard and what their results were:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-1U891LbgM




.

[noli]

.


pic of varied designs in adaptor plates


395401

[noli]

.


"A couple months ago , I had a guy with a box stock 225 efi ( late model Motorola) trade in a flywheel , inner can , 6 pedal rubber reed blocks and a set of 73 cc heads .

He took home a 13 lb flywheel , cut and cleaned out can like the one above , striped , flattened and tumble polished reed blocks with shortened stops and Carson reeds. He wanted to run 89 to 91 octane fuel , so I did a set of 65 cc heads for him .
He put just that stuff on his open fisherman boat . He called me about a week later and said it was 7 mph faster than it was before.
The whole deal with the 300 ign is it has a coupe more degree's of WOT timing which helps it accelerate harder and a little higher secondary rev limiter.
The idea of a 250 fuel box is these things run blubbery fat , so the lower HP fuel curve actually clean's some of that up . It also has the soft limiter which starts dumping extra fuel back in (nice right ) at high RPM . I never really saw much gain from the computer thing , the porting is so mild , that they quit pulling way before the "benefits" show up ...

Reed blocks look like this ..."

395397



The 73 and 63cc heads have a pretty wide chamber ...

395398






Anything less than 65 cc I like to just weld up the chambers and mill them back out to whatever size we're lookin for .

395399






This set is pretty tight but works well with a big exhaust port ..

395400

[noli]

.




#5 ) Can someone identify any overlapping functions of these components ?




Please add/correct where necessary:

the tuner, the side attached to the adaptor plate is the smaller diameter thus has the effect of the Divergent section. As you follow the tuner down into the can cavity, it's diameter gets larger.

The resonance bounces off of the lower portion of the driveshaft housing which is smaller in diameter (Convergent section), shoots back up the tuner, up through the exhaust chest cavity of the block and pushes back the fresh fuel mixture back into the exhaust port.

here's a pic of an adaptor plate and a tuner. Notice the cone shape of the tuner.

395402

[noli]

.


What happens when we cut down a 20" mid to a 15" mid?



Theoretically, the power curve will also be altered because we "detuned" the outboard's "Tuned Exhaust system" ?






.

[BarryStrawn]

Another opinion is that those are not "tuners", they are diffusers. And the divergent cone thinking is just sales talk or wishful thinking. The "diffuser" opinion suggests they do next to nothing except ease the transition into the can.

[Chaz]

#1 ) Can someone name the five basic components of an "expansion*chamber" ?

While this will definitely Aumentato il pane di dimensioni cestello ......>


1. very dry ricotta
2. granulated sugar
3. vanilla
4. Chocolate chips
5. Cannoli shells


In this application , we will "settle" for .... :D

1. header
2. convergent cone
3. belly
4. divergent cone
5. stinger


#2 ) Can someone explain the function of each component ?

See post's # 78 and #176


#3 ) Can someone name the two basic components of an outboards exhaust ?

Log and tuner


#4 ) Can someone explain the function of each component ?

Sure looks like the log and the header pipe serve the same function ... Matter of fact , I'll bet the tuner and divergent cone also do the same thing as well ... :eek:


#5 ) Can someone identify any overlapping functions of these components ?


With the , belly , convergent cone and stinger missing . There really is no major component's available to direct or redirect exhaust flow .
However there are some that feel that there are some expansion chamber like benefits to be had from log plugging or partial stuffing . This really only works if the exhaust is arranged in a fashion where there are three evenly spaced headers in the shape of a trident. And even then , it's minimal at best .The OMC arrangement comes close , and in the "stacked" Mercury seems to be more of a determent than an asset .

Pretty simple in design and rudimentary application . The major issues that come up seem to be rooted in the use of terms that that are non applicable , or have other meanings .
Case in point :



Another opinion is that those are not "tuners", they are diffusers. And the divergent cone thinking is just sales talk or wishful thinking. The "diffuser" opinion suggests they do next to nothing except ease the transition into the can.


I whole heartily agree that "parts are missing" to actually have a "performance exhaust system" .
( and have been saying so for month's now )

The problem is : "Divergent" is a description of a shape !
I.E. (Drawing apart from a common point )

"Diffuser" : A passage that decelerates a stream of gas or liquid from a high to a low velocity .

# 6 ) Anyone care to guess the most common shape of most diffuser's ?

:nonod: Just kidding .... :D


Please refer to the original exhaust document for further information .. >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M

[AZMIDLYF]

https://historicmotorsportcentral.com/2015/06/22/kingofthemountain-the-efi-mercury-v6-powered-lola-t294/

[noli]

.


That picture explains why V6 outboards can't have a tuned exhaust unless every cylinder has its own exhaust system with expansion chamber in each?





.

[powerabout]

Yet 3cyl and v6 outboards can make 2hp/ci pretty easily
Not so easy on any other combination so thats saying 3 cyl in one exhaust does have a tuning advantage

[FORBESAUTO]

I don't think they are saying it's not tuned, just not in the same way and as effective as an expansion chamber tuned exhaust is. I feel the outboard exhaust system does a pretty good job on the scavanging part of tuning. On the stuffing part there's a lot to be desired. I feel you get a small amount and not nearly as efficient of stuffing from the initial pressure wave of the next in line fired cylinder that can somewhat stuff the closing exhaust of the previously fired cylinder. Only problem is with 3 cylinders there is no equal pairs or all equal lengths to work effectively. And cylinders 5 and 6 are the ones that get left out and have no correctly timed means of stuffing, therefore get the most issues. This is why it's so important to close the door at the right time to prevent from loosing much of your fresh charge. This is also the reason you will notice that most Outboard's run less blowdown degrees between the exhaust and transfers than a well tuned expansion chamber motor would for the same rpm range, because there is not an efficient way to put it back in. JMO

[powerabout]

The problem with 3cyl...?
Yet they work better than any other combination in an outboard.

[FORBESAUTO]

If we are relying on cylinders to stuff each other, without equal lengths how's it gonna work efficiently? Somebody is gonna have to have a longer trip to make.

[powerabout]

If we are relying on cylinders to stuff each other, without equal lengths how's it gonna work efficiently? Somebody is gonna have to have a longer trip to make.

Sure, not saying its ideal but 3 works better than 2 or 4
What was that mod done to the il6 re T2x and the firing order to make the 2 x 3 cyl grouping work better?

[FORBESAUTO]

Yes, but think it's more to do with the spacing in crank degrees between cylinders to make the little that is there work at all. Also remember the tuning used in a tuned style exhaust is using the "sound" wave. There is not enough distance for this type of tuning in the chest, they are simply using the exhaust pressure wave, which is much slower and sloppy causing it to be inconsistent as far as a stuffing method. And at higher rpm levels really goes to crap, which is why on the hipo motors the chest no longer has the "ditch", because at that level it's useless.

[Chaz]

I just got off the phone with the president . I got him to sign an executive order squashing the "no child left behind" laws .... ;)

Since we all (should) know by now that between , expanding exhaust pressure , a piston carrying ( flywheel effect ) momentum pushing the spent charge out a relatively large hole and a conduit that provides a scavenging effect .
It becomes easy to see that emptying the cylinder is easy compared to having only 14.7 psi of atmospheric pressure to start the process of filling it .

https://i.imgur.com/Zw5Kurzm.jpg

[NICE PAIR]

I just got off the phone with the president . I got him to sign an executive order squashing the "no child left behind" laws .... ;)

Since we all (should) know by now that between , expanding exhaust pressure , a piston carrying ( flywheel effect ) momentum pushing the spent charge out a relatively large hole and a conduit that provides a scavenging effect .
It becomes easy to see that emptying the cylinder is easy compared to having only 14.7 psi of atmospheric pressure to start the process of filling it .

https://i.imgur.com/Zw5Kurzm.jpg

Thank-you Chaz.
A bazillian years ago, when I was a child, I had a Bultaco (Serpa S) motorcycle.
It is a real pipey 2 stroke and has light switch for a throttle.
It idled fairly fast and had a power band about 14 rpm wide and that happened around 9,000 rpm. (numbers could be slightly adjusted to enhance story)
We rode as a group and did a lot of trail riding and hill climbing and the light switch bike just wasn't fun.
Soooooo, I cut the chamber off, ran a 2" pipe from the head back past the foot pegs and off we went.
Absolutely -0- top end but you could pop the clutch @ idle and it would chug away. It would go flat about 1/2 way to its top horsepower
I'm thinkin this thing needs some squeeze like the expansion pipe and stinger puts on it. I reach back with my foot and cover up most of the end of the pipe and the bike starts rolling, the tighter I squeezed it the higher the rpms went.
Yahoo! I had an adjustable stinger exhaust in 1963, I wonder if I could market it. (I'm gonna need better leather for my boots.)
If you held the motor squeezed and max rpm long enough it would overheat and stick the piston, If you clutched it early enough, the air going over the barrel would cool it enough for it to come loose.

Just some of the dumb **** you do when your a kid.

Don't try this with your outboard. ;-)

[Chaz]

Nice Pair , nice response , really nice practical reason that some don't get it . They have never spent much , if any time on "pipey" 2 stroke motorcycles .
No amount of pages of text :nonod: will be able to explain the difference between the feeling of a "droning open megaphone" and that of one that "comes on the pipe" and tries to throw ya off the back ... ;)

( I remember sitting in the McDonalds {1976} on Van Nyes Blvd. and looking across the street and seeing Steve's Bultaco and Hank the Crank's shops were next door to each other and thinking , somehow I thought they would be bigger )

cemoto :thumbsup:



A little more bell mouth this time ... >

https://i.imgur.com/rjitygSm.jpg

[NICE PAIR]

Nice Pair , nice response , really nice practical reason that some don't get it . They have never spent much , if any time on "pipey" 2 stroke motorcycles .
No amount of pages of text :nonod: will be able to explain the difference between the feeling of a "droning open megaphone" and that of one that "comes on the pipe" and tries to throw ya off the back ... ;)

( I remember sitting in the McDonalds {1976} on Van Nyes Blvd. and looking across the street and seeing Steve's Bultaco and Hank the Crank's shops were next door to each other and thinking , somehow I thought they would be bigger )

cemoto :thumbsup:



A little more bell mouth this time ... >

https://i.imgur.com/rjitygSm.jpg

Would love to have a pair of your "4 liters" on my boat. ;-)

[Chaz]

Would love to have a pair of your "4 liters" on my boat. ;-)

It's "nice" of you to say that ... :D
Speaking of that , when I bored the sleeve registers to final size . I looked down the hole and said ... These babies could easily go out another "hunnert fitty thousandths" .. :eek:
To do so would require the outside to either be all welded up or epoxied to where I could get enough depth to the port runner to feed a 667 cc cylinder . Not that would be a totally bad thing . But it would definitely take away the relatively stock looking outward appearance ..
As it stands (for) now . With a 3.0L crank they are 3462 cc and with a 3.2 crank they come out to 3642 cc's with more than enough runner depth and width to support either a 577 or 607 cc cylinder without having to get too crazy .. :)

Next in line was the "oversized" billet blocks I had machined up . It takes some work to get them to fit the front half , but nothing too hateful . I wanted to open the hole up anyway . As the rod is moving away from BDC , it's size and angularity does a good job of blocking the only way in ... :(
Chris Carson made up the tooling and ran a few sets of reeds for me that fit perfectly ... :thumbsup:

https://i.imgur.com/4OaiMsam.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YwpevK4m.jpg

[NICE PAIR]

It's "nice" of you to say that ... :D
Speaking of that , when I bored the sleeve registers to final size . I looked down the hole and said ... These babies could easily go out another "hunnert fitty thousandths" .. :eek:
To do so would require the outside to either be all welded up or epoxied to where I could get enough depth to the port runner to feed a 667 cc cylinder . Not that would be a totally bad thing . But it would definitely take away the relatively stock looking outward appearance ..
As it stands (for) now . With a 3.0L crank they are 3462 cc and with a 3.2 crank they come out to 3642 cc's with more than enough runner depth and width to support either a 577 or 607 cc cylinder without having to get too crazy .. :)

Next in line was the "oversized" billet blocks I had machined up . It takes some work to get them to fit the front half , but nothing too hateful . I wanted to open the hole up anyway . As the rod is moving away from BDC , it's size and angularity does a good job of blocking the only way in ... :(
Chris Carson made up the tooling and ran a few sets of reeds for me that fit perfectly ... :thumbsup:

https://i.imgur.com/4OaiMsam.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YwpevK4m.jpg

I was reasonably afraid if I said a "Nice Pair" of your 4 liters, you'd have me thrown off the site. ;-)

If you need a test boat ... "I'm your Huckleberry" (I think that line came from a movie)

[AZMIDLYF]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YVTksxZMOA

:D

[Chaz]

If you need a test boat ... "I'm your Huckleberry" (I think that line came from a movie)

I know you have a "nice boat" . No need to test it ... I'm sure it would be up to the task .... :D

It's amazing how much Doc Holliday's great grandson looks just like him .... :eek: :smiletest:

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.zdsyxFRry94vHFoMV_rVFgHaEc&pid=Api&P=0&w=282&h=170

[RBT]

I don't think they are saying it's not tuned, just not in the same way and as effective as an expansion chamber tuned exhaust is. I feel the outboard exhaust system does a pretty good job on the scavanging part of tuning. On the stuffing part there's a lot to be desired. I feel you get a small amount and not nearly as efficient of stuffing from the initial pressure wave of the next in line fired cylinder that can somewhat stuff the closing exhaust of the previously fired cylinder. Only problem is with 3 cylinders there is no equal pairs or all equal lengths to work effectively. And cylinders 5 and 6 are the ones that get left out and have no correctly timed means of stuffing, therefore get the most issues. This is why it's so important to close the door at the right time to prevent from loosing much of your fresh charge. This is also the reason you will notice that most Outboard's run less blowdown degrees between the exhaust and transfers than a well tuned expansion chamber motor would for the same rpm range, because there is not an efficient way to put it back in. JMO

In a merc v6, 1/2 are the weakest holes. 5/6 are the strongest. The diffuser is effective, but isn't significant. Alterations are visabke on a dyno and in telemetry. But johnny six pack test driving it will never feel it with his calibrated butt dyno.

[Onetime]

Unless you have a calibrated accelerometer up your butt!

[NICE PAIR]

In a merc v6, 1/2 are the weakest holes. 5/6 are the strongest. The diffuser is effective, but isn't significant. Alterations are visabke on a dyno and in telemetry. But johnny six pack test driving it will never feel it with his calibrated butt dyno.

Which one is johnny? ;)

396033

[NICE PAIR]

I know you have a "nice boat" . No need to test it ... I'm sure it would be up to the task .... :D

It's amazing how much Doc Holliday's great grandson looks just like him .... :eek: :smiletest:

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.zdsyxFRry94vHFoMV_rVFgHaEc&pid=Api&P=0&w=282&h=170

"Nice answer" :D

"Amazing" :thumbsup:

[FORBESAUTO]

In a merc v6, 1/2 are the weakest holes. 5/6 are the strongest. The diffuser is effective, but isn't significant. Alterations are visabke on a dyno and in telemetry. But johnny six pack test driving it will never feel it with his calibrated butt dyno.


Never said 5 and 6 was the weakest, said that they wouldn't get any of very little available stuffing. The point was these motors are more about scavanging which goes along with your statement. 5 and 6 get the best scavanging and least stuffing which is why I claimed are the ones that get fried the most.

[AZMIDLYF]

Unless you have a calibrated accelerometer up your butt!

The calibration/installation methods? :leaving:

Chaz, how would this fair on your reed plate?

396035

[Chaz]

It would look like two of them stacked on top of each other . One with butterflies , the other with the butterflies removed . So I would say , not very good .

I'm a big fan of all the cylinders drawing air from a common area after it is metered .
I have some of the parts complete to build a sheet metal plenum with the air inlet out front . But that is a "down the road" project .

[AZMIDLYF]

Does the inlet being at the top have different effects for the closest ports as opposed to the furthest(bottom) ports, or is the plenum pretty much equal for all? I've seen on some race manifolds for autos how they sort of collapse the plenum down towards the rear. What would be the purpose there?

[Chaz]

The first time I looked at the late model downdraft intake , I thought that they seriously bumped their head . There was no way that the top cylinder could get air. After all it would rush in and bypass the top , let alone make the sharp 110* turn and form a column and go thru the reeds uniformly .

Then after taking the time to measure the inside volume of the box , I found out that it held a larger capacity than the actual size of the motor by close to 30 cubic inch's .
So in essence , it is somewhat of a large "still air" box . The motor will never reach a percentage of volumetric efficiency over 100 to tax the amount of air on hand .
And just like a four barrel over a single plane intake manifold , they don't pull an intake charge all at once . Each cylinder follow's the rotation . So the air ducting really only needs to refill the "box" at the rate and volume in which it is depleted .

Those slope lid manifolds have some thought put into them . The entrance has to be big enough to house the air valve . The cross section has to be big enough to both keep the column moving slow enough to where the first cylinders in line don't have to reach out and grab a fast moving target , turn it and fill the runner . As well be the conduit to support the back cylinders . The shape also keeps the air from tumbling as it moves to the back .

We have come a long way from the old "Ramchargers C/Altered intake ... >

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.AIOj0lFEwpblZcKQo8ZFVAHaFi&pid=Api&P=0&w=202&h=152

And the state or the art stuff that my hero John Marcella builds today ... ;)

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.OsPr7djCAe0JfBXA6lW41QHaFj&pid=Api&P=0&w=230&h=174

[noli]

.


The laboratory!

He is not Chaz, but another trend setter and decorated racer.


396238

[powerabout]

The first time I looked at the late model downdraft intake , I thought that they seriously bumped their head . There was no way that the top cylinder could get air. After all it would rush in and bypass the top , let alone make the sharp 110* turn and form a column and go thru the reeds uniformly .

Then after taking the time to measure the inside volume of the box , I found out that it held a larger capacity than the actual size of the motor by close to 30 cubic inch's .
So in essence , it is somewhat of a large "still air" box . The motor will never reach a percentage of volumetric efficiency over 100 to tax the amount of air on hand .
And just like a four barrel over a single plane intake manifold , they don't pull an intake charge all at once . Each cylinder follow's the rotation . So the air ducting really only needs to refill the "box" at the rate and volume in which it is depleted .

Those slope lid manifolds have some thought put into them . The entrance has to be big enough to house the air valve . The cross section has to be big enough to both keep the column moving slow enough to where the first cylinders in line don't have to reach out and grab a fast moving target , turn it and fill the runner . As well be the conduit to support the back cylinders . The shape also keeps the air from tumbling as it moves to the back .

We have come a long way from the old "Ramchargers C/Altered intake ... >

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.AIOj0lFEwpblZcKQo8ZFVAHaFi&pid=Api&P=0&w=202&h=152

And the state or the art stuff that my hero John Marcella builds today ... ;)

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.OsPr7djCAe0JfBXA6lW41QHaFj&pid=Api&P=0&w=230&h=174
I wonder if there is far more reversion in a reed valve motor than a 4 stroke so the rules on the plenum are different.
I went looking for a cfd program that could do pulsed flow, couldnt find one

[Chaz]

I wonder if there is far more reversion in a reed valve motor than a 4 stroke so the rules on the plenum are different.

Only with a broken reed .... :cool:


I went looking for a cfd program that could do pulsed flow, couldnt find one

"Conceptual Flow Divider" programs driven by pulsification are a mental gyration of figmentation .. ;)

However , I did whittle up a new "deck bridge" where I can check real world clearance's in multiple locations ... :smiletest:

https://i.imgur.com/p2yZzYbl.jpg

[HStream1]

That picture almost gave me a coronary yesterday. George with a carbide Burr that close to my Block and chest. And that devilish Grin to boot.


.


The laboratory!

He is not Chaz, but another trend setter and decorated racer.


396238

[Chaz]

Notice die grinder throttle WFO ... and the cutter not spinning ... ;)

[AZMIDLYF]

Someone probably pulled his lanyard. :D

[Chaz]

Compressor switch was on ... just too cold to spin the 1/4 turn handle to pipe air into the shop that day ... besides , it was lunch time .. :D

[Chaz]

https://i.imgur.com/3RWNrkDl.jpg

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/318/507/080.jpg

[noli]

.

Wow!

How did you make a 400HP?



.

[vnemous]

Thats my 400x and it was much easier to achieve that than you would think:D398742

[XstreamVking]

X rated motor porn at 400 ponies...yowza!

[Onetime]

.

Wow!

How did you make a 400HP?



.

New Decals!

[vnemous]

Chaz made me do it

398784

[Chaz]

I cannot and will not be held responsible for that ... :)

First , as an adolescent ... I have many thousands of miles on Yamaha brand motorcycles . So I have nothing but good things to say about their products .

Secondly , If I had anything to do with it , it would look something like this .... >

https://i.imgur.com/qOhMCPBl.jpg

[BUZZIN' DOZEN]

Photoshop skill level? "Expert" :thumbsup:

[Chaz]

Well Buzzin ... here's one I cant take credit for . it appears that our very crash dummy fongus has been sub-contracting out to the Navy . Here is never seen before video footage of the world's not so famous red whatever it is being sent off of the
U.S.S. Gerald R. Ford's new E.M.A.L. system ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=167&v=jJNcCermTDw

[JPEROG]

That was Bin Ladin's "proper" burial that they talked about.

Joe

[Chaz]

That was Bin Ladin's "proper" burial that they talked about.

Joe

The generator can be turned up to support future use of laser and rail guns .. :eek:
Looked pretty adjustable ... :thumbsup:



Photoshop skill level? "Expert" https://www.screamandfly.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

Sshhhhh .. they don't have photo shop in forff gwade onwy cwayons and decaws

[noli]

.



lots of block works it looks like!



400754

[Chaz]

Look how messy that bench is .... :leaving: :eek: :D

[flabum1017]

Wonder how many of those green cups are on the bench :D

[vnemous]

You should start patting people down for cameras. How can you have anything top secret going on:D

[Dave S]

So what ya going to do today..... to impress me?

[Dave S]

Sorry..... out of contextxxxx..... My wifes mother in law ?????? she said it all the time....good work...

[Chaz]

You should start patting people down for cameras. How can you have anything top secret going on:D

That just seems so wrong .. on so many fronts ... :eek: :o
















On the other hand .. I already know my friends have camera's ... :)

https://i.imgur.com/pjf1U7Nl.jpg

[vnemous]

Your not gonna get any work done like that:D

[RSWORDS]

Charlie..... you hiring? Lol

[Chaz]

Charlie..... you hiring? Lol

Robert ... I'm so glad you axed :eek: I hired a new secretary yesterday, she doesn't get around to good, but she has a great personality . :)

Would you be interested in being her personal assistant .. ??? she also has tattoo's .

As a side benefit, you get :

Shade in the summer. Heat in the winter ..and ... motion picture's all year round :leaving:


https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.4Vw2sA4hT-WbOtkf5IgBqgHaFA&pid=Api&P=0&w=233&h=158 (http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrExo6n039cwDgACidjCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIycjN2MnFsBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM5YTU5ZjQzZTU2N2Q0MzI2O GFlMzg3MmZkYzkwYmQ4YwRncG9zAzUEaXQDYmluZw--/RV=2/RE=1551909928/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2fimages-production.global.ssl.fastly.net%2fuploads%2fposts%2fimage%2f135962%2f-my-600-lb-life--dottie-now-.jpg/RK=0/RS=vssmo5A7Ro9IscloSCnrxg1ne5E-)

[RSWORDS]

Im a firm believer in every woman is beautiful! :D

[olboatman]

Im a firm believer in every woman is beautiful! :D

That may be true in spirit but some may need their eyes checked otherwise!!!

[RSWORDS]

That may be true in spirit but some may need their eyes checked otherwise!!!

It may be worth it to hopefully bbn learn something. Lol

[Dave S]

The END of chine walk...... I will be looking .......Shift Honey.......

[flabum1017]

The END of chine walk...... I will be looking .......Shift Honey.......

Imagine all the jiggling that would be going on too :D

[Chaz]

Im a firm believer in every woman is beautiful! :D

I don't know when , I don't where , I don't know the circumstance ... but I'm gonna use that line right there to my advantage someday ... :thumbsup: :D :D :D

Ohhh **** my ribs hurt ... now . Holy **** that was funny :thumbsup:

[RSWORDS]

I don't know when , I don't where , I don't know the circumstance ... but I'm gonna use that line right there to my advantage someday ... :thumbsup: :D :D :D

Ohhh **** my ribs hurt ... now . Holy **** that was funny :thumbsup:

Lol

I'm gonna be in Sarasota next month... that anywhere near you? I'll buy the first beer.... or canollie

[Chaz]

Wrong side of the state ... Due East to Martin County ..:(

https://www.waterproofpaper.com/printable-maps/county-map/florida-county-map.gif