AV - Gas?

[2.5-21]

Anyone going to the airport to fuel their boats to avoid the Ethanol?

The added octane is nice I am just trying to stay away from the Alcohol.

[Capt.Insane-o]

Not so much anymore but I used to frequently.

[2.5-21]

Not so much anymore but I used to frequently. Any problems going in? Security ETC.

[Michael J Giesler]

Nope my dad has been doing it since 1976 for his sno twister i have been doing it for 20 years no problem

[Capt.Insane-o]

Not around here. There are two smaller airports I just roll up to the pumps slide the card and go. Years ago they asked a few questions. They frown upon filling barrels but a few cans and the boat is fine. If your motor doesn't need the octane it's a wasted expense though.

[rastadr]

Nothing beats the smell

[2.5-21]

Not around here. There are two smaller airports I just roll up to the pumps slide the card and go. Years ago they asked a few questions. They frown upon filling barrels but a few cans and the boat is fine. If your motor doesn't need the octane it's a wasted expense though. What is the threashold for compression to require the octane? 150?

[Capt.Insane-o]

140-145 is safer for pump gas. The motors I run on av gas were 180-185

[FMP]

Just saying, don't have to follow. On crossflows I have that are fresh rebuilds with all things right and blow-by that's minimal and cranking psi done correctly at 170psi. I run min 91 to 94, never an issue with even lots of ign. I run forged pistons and lots of good oil. Same motors still with 170 psi and 200hrs, no issues pistons look beautiful. Doesn't mean it works for you .

[2.5-21]

Anything added or removed from AV gas for Altitude to be concerned with?

[FMP]

The fuel weight is a bit different, some mix with hightest gas for a good blend. If you're not letting the 10% alc hightest sit too long etc it should be fine in a modern engine, treatment works as well.

[Coryc]

Anyone going to the airport to fuel their boats to avoid the Ethanol?

The added octane is nice I am just trying to stay away from the Alcohol.

I see you're in the great South Bay. If you are willing to take a drive up north a little ways, starting in Ulster county NY, Stewart's shops sell 91 Non ethanol at the pump.

[FMP]

Is straight 91 or better difficult to find in that area?

[71V153]

If'n yer fuel lines and carb kits are ethanol 'compliant'. And ya empty the tank(s) often. You shouldn't have a problem. I run 93 pump gas a la corn oil. Done so for years.

Fwiw 104 is available at the small airport here. Drive up to the pump, swipe yer card et voila. You're good to go.

[FMP]

Use the 100LL once in awhile, smoother.Can turn up ign a couple more *

[89LASER]

I winterize with it from a small tank and leave the tanks in the boat empty so the ethanol doesn't attract water over the winter.

[FMP]

Dry tanks, can't leave the 10% sitting around. Carbs and pumps and lines empty. Good idea with the 100 LL if you run it through and fog behind.

[jpf091959]

I run 100LL, either straight up or mixed 50/50 with premium pump gas. The AV gas is oxygenated (I could be wrong) or engineered to run at higher altitudes, so I always run Lucas Fuel Injector cleaner/lubricant.

If I remember correctly AV fuel used to be the base component used in race fuel, the manufacturer would then add hydrocarbons like TEL.

[71V153]

You boys need to move South ...

And fwiw less'n yer motor really needs it, octane ain't all it's cracked up to be. I've gotten by with 87 in a pinch ...

[Laser LTV]

I buy my 112 from local Sunoco station that has 100 also

[Coryc]

Is straight 91 or better difficult to find in that area?
No, not really. A lot of gas stations and shops carry Sunoco race fuels and up in northern NY 91 non ethanol is at every Stewart's shop.

[2.5-21]

No, not really. A lot of gas stations and shops carry Sunoco race fuels and up in northern NY 91 non ethanol is at every Stewart's shop. The Liberals here in this part of new york dont feel we need non ethanol fuel.....

[FMP]

What motor are you fueling? Sunoco 94 is about the best pump here. Goes by the brand PetroCan, and is 10% alc. Works great with good oil.

[Coryc]

The Liberals here in this part of new york dont feel we need non ethanol fuel.....

yeah I hear ya. I live in NY just over the border from danbury CT and I gotta drive an hour to get the 91 non ethanol. Fortunately my whole family lives in lake George so I'm up there with my boat quite a bit and fill it up with the non ethanol.

[gearcase]

Ran a lot of 100LL threw my 2.5 merc s 3000 185lb. fuel matters.

[Hupiveneilijä]

Just saying, don't have to follow. On crossflows I have that are fresh rebuilds with all things right and blow-by that's minimal and cranking psi done correctly at 170psi. I run min 91 to 94, never an issue with even lots of ign. I run forged pistons and lots of good oil. Same motors still with 170 psi and 200hrs, no issues pistons look beautiful. Doesn't mean it works for you .

I run mine omc70 with ~175psi & 21* max timing on our 98e5 here in Finland. Piston tops & plugs look just fine and 4% fullsynt oil.

[FMP]

I think it's the limit. But just read on another thread about 190-200psi tohatso 25/30hp stock psi. Not taking consideration of running psi but that's tight for pump gas. Two stroke rotax as well I think are over 200?

[H20WKD]

The Liberals here in this part of new york dont feel we need non ethanol fuel.....

Not so here in WNY...1.5mi away.

Handy site (https://www.pure-gas.org)

Bob

[2.5-21]

Not so here in WNY...1.5mi away.

Handy site (https://www.pure-gas.org)

Bob Great site, A few stations pop up here on the Island once in a while but usually dont stay around long, Maybe we need to promote the ones that do.

[racervboat]

im told av gas now adays is not what you concider race gas????

[olboatman]

im told av gas now adays is not what you concider race gas????
This is what I understand also. I buy 91 alky free at a local airfield and mix with Sunoco 110 LL bought at gas station. My chainsaw and weed wacker both love it 50% ea. and Klotz R50!!!! lol
Gary

[H20WKD]

Re-formulation for Winter.

From what I understand....they have to add a lot more 'stuff' to ethanol blended. For me less is more.
I use 91e free in everything....from the 200xs to 53 Flathead. :thumbsup:

The pure gas site works pretty well while traveling, don't usually have to run a full tank of E10 before locating a 'pure' station. Up North there are more stations 'cuz of the snowmobilers.

Bob

[Li'l Toy]

Do a search about this. There was a discussion a few years ago. Correct me if my dim memory is off, but I think Jay Smith, who at that time in real life worked for one of the gasoline companies, said that many additives we wanted for our type of use were missing from AvGas.

[David - WI]

You have to be either really careful or really crazy to run leaded fuel. :nonod:



This study provides the first evidence that progressive and ongoing decline in cognitive function, particularly functions such as learning and memory, is associated with adult lead exposure long after exposure ceases.
Lead-brain link (http://www.nmic.org/nyccelp/medical-studies/neurology%20-%20schwartz%20.pdf)



People who have worked in jobs with high levels of lead exposure are up to 3.4 times more likely to develop Alzheimer's disease, an incurable and fatal degeneration of the brain that causes dementia, the researchers told a meeting of the American Academy of Neurology in San Diego. Lead causes brain damage, and strict controls have been placed on lead in paint and in gasoline because of it. But most concerns have centered on its effects in children.

Lead-Alzheimer's Link (http://www.lead.org.au/fs/fst48.html)



The relationship between performance on cognitive tasks and circulating levels of lead in blood and accumulated levels of lead in bone was examined in 141 middle-aged and elderly men Men with higher levels of blood and bone (tibia) lead copied spatial figures less accurately; men with higher levels of bone (tibia) lead had slower responses for pattern memory. These findings suggest that low levels of lead contribute to impairments in cognitive function among elderly men.


Lead-dementia Link (http://www.lead.org.au/bblp/tsld024.htm)



They discovered that men with the highest levels of lead had a nearly threefold risk of developing cataracts. "Lead may contribute to 42% of cataract cases," Hu says. "That's huge."


Lead-cataracts link (https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-12-07-cataracts_x.htm)


Bad ****... sad to see so many people handling leaded gas without any protection. Although, the dumber they get... the easier they should be to beat! :(

[racervboat]

Gary its been said you mix 110 race fuel with 91 pump gas 50/50 and you get 91 pump gas? When I was racing the mod v-4 same as your motor the mixed fuel I was getting my ass handed to me could not figure it out? The next race weekend I was running behind and could not get to the station to get race fuel to mix it 50/50 so I just got 91 non oxy and ran that the weekend and kicked everyones ass ? People thought I was cheating some how but the motor loved just the 91 pump gas straight up and started winning a lot of races just by switching fuel ? but some motors with very high comp need race fuel or they will not live long.

[Dave Strong]

Gary its been said you mix 110 race fuel with 91 pump gas 50/50 and you get 91 pump gas? When I was racing the mod v-4 same as your motor the mixed fuel I was getting my ass handed to me could not figure it out? The next race weekend I was running behind and could not get to the station to get race fuel to mix it 50/50 so I just got 91 non oxy and ran that the weekend and kicked everyones ass ? People thought I was cheating some how but the motor loved just the 91 pump gas straight up and started winning a lot of races just by switching fuel ? but some motors with very high comp need race fuel or they will not live long.

A lot of people run race fuel av gas mix when it is not needed, all they do is kill performance. If you do not have the compression needed for the higher octane no need to run it.

Dave

[Michael J Giesler]

And to add to this anyone using Q16 fuel that is cancer in a can be very very careful around it

[racervboat]

10-4 on that brothers,apba would not let us run oxy fuel it was faster though?

[RobF]

I think it was dirk that told me Republic Airport is not allowing gas can fills any longer

[Capt.Insane-o]

Q-16 is evil.

[71V153]

A lot of people run race fuel av gas mix when it is not needed, all they do is kill performance. If you do not have the compression needed for the higher octane no need to run it.

DavePrecisely.

[71V153]

Unless you've radically raised compression that 'extra' octane don't do squat.

[FMP]

Give a couple more degrees ign timing

[olboatman]

Gary its been said you mix 110 race fuel with 91 pump gas 50/50 and you get 91 pump gas? When I was racing the mod v-4 same as your motor the mixed fuel I was getting my ass handed to me could not figure it out? The next race weekend I was running behind and could not get to the station to get race fuel to mix it 50/50 so I just got 91 non oxy and ran that the weekend and kicked everyones ass ? People thought I was cheating some how but the motor loved just the 91 pump gas straight up and started winning a lot of races just by switching fuel ? but some motors with very high comp need race fuel or they will not live long.
Ken I use the mixture I explained in my 25 Yammy and a old modded 35 OMC. Not for octane reasons ( don't run hi-compression) but for BTUs and I see a couple hundred RPM on the top end over 93 w/alky. Got this from a old OPC racer years ago.....and the yard tools love it!!!lol BTW Try it in your sled....you will "feel" what I'm sayin!
Gary

[olboatman]

Not to hi-jack......but has anyone tried the "Race Gas" additive?
Thanks
Gary

[FMP]

Royal Purple boost, brings it up 3,4 numbers.MTBE I think. Also alc treatment I think, have to read the sheet again.

[WillySteve]

A lot of people run race fuel av gas mix when it is not needed, all they do is kill performance. If you do not have the compression needed for the higher octane no need to run it.

Dave

VERY True Dave!!!
The gasoline with the most BTU is cheap azz regular!!!
It's capable of making more power than higher octane fuels however when you reach the threshold of detonation a higher octane fuel will quench the detonation and higher compression or advanced timing engines have to have the higher octane.
The higher the octane, the more additives, the less the gasoline!
Pound for pound cheap regular carries more available power....ie: BTU's!
It's similar an engine's fuel/oil mixture.....with the same jet sizes a 16/1 ratio actually burns leaner inside a cylinder than a 50/1.....more oil, less gas.....more additives, less gas!!!!

[FMP]

Just looked at a can of Klotz booster. They claim up to 10 numbers?

[racervboat]

True willy but you would not run your 260 with 50:1 mix with race fuel let alone 50:1 mix with pump 87?

[WillySteve]

Oh heck no, I've ALWAYS ran what's recomended by the Merc Guys....32/1 on no less than 91 octane, I was just using that as an example. ;)

BTW, I also run 23 degrees timing and 140-45 compression!

[racervboat]

yep that's a safe mix and timing brother.

[racervboat]

fmp 10 #s man that's unheard of its all alc might as well convert to methanol hahaha.

[olboatman]

Or ya could use the Klotz Nitro additive(actually nitro-parafin) as I know it works.....we won the 1992 Open Mod drag sled nationals in St John Canada
mixing it with 112 oct race fuel in the 1050 Cat we ran. Be sure to have some BIG jets and cold plugs!!!
Gary

[FMP]

fmp 10 #s man that's unheard of its all alc might as well convert to methanol hahaha.

Need to read that can again

[WillySteve]

Hell Gary just put it on the bottle and leave the jets alone....Problem Solved!!!! Double yer power....double yer fun!!!!

[olboatman]

Hell Gary just put it on the bottle and leave the jets alone....Problem Solved!!!! Double yer power....double yer fun!!!!

Thats just what I'm gonna do to my 25 Yammy when I get the Viper completed....and I'm gettin close! Your PM sold me Willy!!!! lol
Gary

[FMP]

Spray a 25yami! Can you find a prop or is rpm the goal?

[olboatman]

I"m spinnin a 15p cupped and reworked Proptech on the limiter @ 6K. The prop shaft is 1" below the sponsons (waterline) on my SLT. I want to add the juice and disconnect the limiter with 2 to 4" of pitch. These props have a lot of rake and love riding high! Would kill to break 50 mph as it is a rush @ 42 and want to keep the rig light....about 440 lbs total including myself.

[FMP]

Keep the vest on lol

[olboatman]

Keep the vest on lol
:iagree:I can't stop laughing!!!!:eek::D

[WillySteve]

PowerTec will build what you need! I had to overprop the 25 Merc by 4" to keep rpm's reasonable on the bottle!

[FMP]

Which year 25?

[FMP]

:iagree:I can't stop laughing!!!!:eek::D

Yup, I mean nope. Lol

[olboatman]

If your askin me Frank....mine is a 88.

[FMP]

Good years, the Merc?

[WillySteve]

Good years, the Merc?

84 mercosil.

[FMP]

I have an 86, was running in the snow this morning

[Mark75H]

Unless my memory is way off, Mr Smith drove a delivery truck for the gas company, so yes he worked for a gas company and was involved in predelivery mixing.

Like Royal Purple additive, Klotz octane booster is MTBE. Better than what you can buy at AutoZone, which is ... ethanol.

It is correct that regular grade pump gas has more BTU energy than AV gas ... but so does TNT, but that doesn't make TNT better motor fuel.

Klotz Nitro is mostly nitroparrafin, but its not an octane booster.

The higher octane and longer shelf storage components of AV gas are not "additives", they are the base, its just different, not "juiced up" regular gas.


On 2 strokes with radical exhaust tuning, cranking compression may not be the sole factor in deciding where to start using higher octane fuel. On the other hand, I have several racing outboards that crank 275psi. These motors do require race gas and run fine on AV gas. I occaisionally use it in my standard pleasure motors just to avoid E10

[FMP]

275 is a bunch. Purple is MMT, finally read the can again.

[71V153]

Fwiw you can get 104 at Venice Airport. Credit card and container'n yer good to go.

[FMP]

100LL up here, have to fly down and get some 104 lol

[Michael J Giesler]

100LL up here, have to fly down and get some 104 lol

100LL av is 110 octane

[FMP]

Educate us? Just dragged this over, maybe I read it wrong? I've used it mixed with 93 and even straight 100LL and have noticed a smoother run.

AvGas octane numbers are determined in a different test than motor gasoline octane numbers. Do not be confused by the big numbers from the AvGas test method. They are not comparable to motor gasoline test numbers. The 110 leaded gasoline will test out at about 160 on the AvGas scale.
AvGas is held to tighter requirements than street gasoline, but not nearly as tight as is the entire line of Racing Gasolines. Some racing gasoline blenders us AvGas as a blending component to save money.
AvGas has a lower specific gravity than most racing gasolines. This means that if a racer tries AvGas and has not re-jetted, he can burn a piston because the air-fuel ratio is too lean and/or the engine detonated. To make a good comparison between two gasolines, the air-fuel mixtures must be the same. Even after re-jetting, the racer can experience burned pistons with AvGas if the Motor Octane Number (MON) is lower than what his or her engine needs.
Another potential problem with AvGas is that there are several different octane grades. The 80/87 grade is red in color and can get you in lots of trouble because of its very low octane number. The 100LL is blue and the 100/130 grade is green. Both of these have much lower Motor Octane Numbers (MON) than most racing gasolines and will detonate when the engine octane demand is greater than the octane number of the gasoline.

[WillySteve]

We played with av gas years ago and the very 1st thing you'll notice is the specific gravity.....a carb mota will have gas shooting out the vents if you don't lower the floats.
Cars & Boats don't run at 20,000 feet!!!
If you race, use racing fuel....if you don't race, don't build a mota that takes racing fuel....if you feel the need for more HP then buy a bigger mota!!!!
js

[FMP]

93,94 octane pump with 20% total volume Toluene gets you there, add a can of purple on that. I think I might mix that and try it, works to about 101. 91 non ethanol with 20% gets about 96.

[Capt.Insane-o]

None of that bullsh*t in a can works other than aces

I ran and still occasionally run av gas. Never had any issue with it what so ever. Back when it was fun 1000 gallons a summer wasn't out of the norm.

[FMP]

Purple's been proven, dyno tuned? Toluene, absolutely. If you have a modern higher compression or forced induction engine, get it empty, fuel it with your normal fuel add the can. It will tune for it.

[Capt.Insane-o]

Right

Toluene is a base product in high octane fuels. No way I'm trusting my motors to vatozone gogo juice.
Like I tell customers you build your motor to the fuel you have readily accessible.

[FMP]

https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/octane-stability-high-octane-vs-low-octane-fuels

[FMP]

Can of purple on top of AV helps even more with less required for excellent cylinder lub and octane, except for the density which some have issue with.

[FMP]

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/3395/Tested-Royal-Purple-Max-Boost-Octane-Booster.aspx

So if you are going to be hard on the motor, lots of heavy load, skiing etc and you want extra protection use a can to 18gallons.

[Capt.Insane-o]

jesus.. did RP send you a box full of purple man thongs with your paycheck this week?

[FMP]

They should, send us all a few cans that is. I can easily only get 91 no alc, the 100ll is a round trip, the 94 with alc a bring it only. The can is super convenient

[Motv18]

I just head to the dirt track.

Octane booster points are like mortgage points. 87 + 30 point booster = 87.30 octane

I know a few gasheads that buy 87e10 -phase separate- blend with toluene xylene ect- to make their own gas.

100ll is supposed to be 100 (r+m/2) equal to iso-octane (100+100/2) or pure chemical octane.

Gas is a fun debate. The basics as I learned

min octane rating gives reliable starts, complete burn, ect ect

good octane rating gives solid clean performance, less ping and knock in high stress, ect ect

to high octane rating, incomplete burn (carbon buildup smoking), lower power from less burned fuel,

That all depends on true cylinder temp dynamic compression yadda yadda.

[FMP]

All true, except the 3 full numbers from RP, MMT

[H2OPERF]

I have heard all the ins and outs of avgas,yes its not really race gas, but you know 100% what your getting when you buy it... I have ran it in all my stuff never had any issues at all..leave a can of pump gas for a year smells like shizit ,i have drained avgas fron aircraft that have been sitting for 2 years still looks n smells good, im'sure its not 100%but doesn't look like varnish though..Dave

[Mark75H]

100LL is not 100+100/2 nor pure octane Aviation gas is rated on a completely different scale with a completely different set up process

If it were pure octane, it would be 100+100/2, that is correct. "LL" means it has lead (actually "low lead")- if it were pure iso octane and had lead, the octane number would be higher than 100, since 100 means the performance equivalent of pure unleaded iso octane.


There is no direct correlation with octane rating and incomplete burn

[H2OPERF]

Still way better than pump gas to help keep from a burn down. https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/knowledge-centre/technical-talk/techart12-30071515.html

[rude tim]

Av gas is blended to resist detonation and run better at altitude. It produces less horsepower per pound of fuel than premium automotive gas. If you have high compression in your engine it will resist detnation better than 91 pump gas. If you use the proper octane for your engine build it will out perform Av gas.