"What you read on Scream & Fly is B.S" Quoted by local boat shop

[gmaff]

Hi,

I wanted to rebuild a 1991 Mercury V200 early 2.5L engine. I bought this engine used which had a badly melted piston (Middle on Port bank). The motor had been opened up and left in the rain so the crank and rods are trashed. I have been reading threads both here and elsewhere that said it is possible to install a 150HP 2.4L crank in my V200. I found a decent 1980's 150 crank for cheap and bought it. Some of the information on the threads is confusing and having never tried this before I did a mockup of the crank installation and brought it to the local boat shop for advice on whether it would work. I have never been in there before but thought I might get help as I gave one of their buddies kids a pretty nice Sidewinder boat for free. That boat has been showcased on their front webpage for over a year as one of their achievements. I even told them that I'm the guy who donated the boat. Still, they were not interested in helping me. I guess not opening my wallet meant no dice, although, I could have used them for some tuning once the motor was completed. They reluctantly looked at the mockup crank installation I did from the info on the threads I read. One guy said to the other "ever hear of a 2.4 crank fitting into a 2.5" and the answer was no. Then without reason they told me it was a "Frankenstein motor" which would be a "Time bomb" and would not work. I had just came from the machinist who is boring the block and he could see no reason why it would not work. I used to know an expert Mechanic at who could have told me in two seconds if it would be good or not and why.

My question to you is, can you tell if my mockup is correct?

Here's what I did.

1) The original 1991 2.5L V200 crank has two inner main bearings that have larger rollers making the outside diameter of the bearing race larger than the bearings from the 1980's 2.4L crank.
I used the larger bearings from the 2.5L crank which fit the journal and the block.

2) The top bearing journal on the 2.5L is larger than the one on the 2.4L crank.
I installed the 2.4L bearing and cap instead of the 2.5L because the bearing is the correct size for the crank and the cap is the correct size to fit the block.

This is a one off early 2.5L built in 1991 which is a bottom guided motor. All the bearings, Main and rod are plastic caged from both motors and both had the 8118 rods.

I believe the information I got from you folks is correct and have faith that this motor will run well. Please look at the photos and let me know if I did it right. I only installed half of each of the inner main bearings to show fitment of the bearing and race.

Gary M.

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P.S. I need a set of 6 new oversize pistons .015" Port bank cylinders were all off size and starboard bank was in spec but pistons are not. Also, need Port head too.

[tlwjkw]

Hi,

One guy said to the other "ever hear of a 2.4 crank fitting into a 2.5" and the answer was no.

this is true.....

production 2.4 cranks used a metal cased center main that will not work ina 2.5

a 2.0 crank will.. tha 2.0 used plastic centers but at a smaller od..

you will notice tha 2.0 has "shoulders" on tha 2 center mains.. thats why you can use "plastic" center mains in either small (pre fat block) or large od (post fat block).......

[bullet123]

Subscribed

[gmaff]

Maybe this is not a 2.4 crank after all. The crank came with the 8118 rods, smaller dia. pistons (765-7442) and plastic caged bearings for rods and mains. The two cranks look identical except for the top main journal which is smaller. How do I identify the crank I was told it was from a 150hp motor.

[bullet123]

Sounds like a 2.0 liter. Measure piston diameter. If it's a 2.0 crank it will work fine in your 2.5

[tlwjkw]

(1.)Maybe this is not a 2.4 crank after all. The crank came with the 8118 rods, smaller dia. pistons (765-7442) and plastic caged bearings for rods and mains. The two cranks look identical except for the top main journal which is smaller. (2)How do I identify the crank, I was told it was from a 150hp motor.

1. only 2.4 crank that works ina fat block is hi performance, non-oilier.. uses "plastic center mains"..

2. if tha crank is oilier, has "shoulders" on center mains with plastic it has to be a 2.0 150 or from a 2.5 style block..

" 2.0 150" only (all of 'em).... will have "shoulders" on tha two center mains and work fine in tha 2.5 (fat block) style block...

"2.4 150" (XR4 was only 2.4 150 built)..... will not have "shoulders" and cannot be used in tha 2.5 (fat block) style block... except tha "91 XR4 it is tha only production 2.4 crank made for tha "fat block" (2.5 style block)

no shoulders on center mains, no worky ina fat block, period.. except for some hacks...

[David Borg]

It seems to be a 2 l crank .Photos show that crank has shoulders in the center mains , and non shouldered center main bearings.
I cannot see any problem using the above combo. I have used 2 l cranks in 2.5 s with no issues. ( unless the pic is deceiving me:eek:)

[gmaff]

Here's what I got:

V200 (orig bad crank):

- Two inner journals = 1.375" I.D.
- 12 roller top bearing = 1.375" I.D/2.30" O.D. Cap = casting number 1159-9642-C with 4-1032 threaded holes.
- Piston diameter = 3.4875"

150 (replacement good crank):

- Two inner journals = 1.375" I.D.
- 21 roller top bearing = 1.5" I.D/2.0640" O.D. Cap = casting number 7159-7402 with 3-1032 threaded holes.
- Piston diameter = 3.1"

I'm not sure what a oiler crank is. Both my cranks have no oil holes in any journals. Both cranks used all plastic caged mains and steel caged big end rod bearings. I was mistaken on the rod bearing cage type in a previous post. Both cranks have smooth (machined) shoulders for the mains and rods. I want to install the 150 crank with the two big O.D. inner bearings and the top bearing/cap (7159-7402) from the 150. Will I have to add the 4th 1032 threaded hole in the cap. What are these holes for?

Best deal on oversize pistons I can find are Wiseco's. Should I go with them? I heard a lot of bad things although the machine shops swear by them.

Gary M.

[Capt.Insane-o]

You have a 2l crank, it'll work fine. Get some .015 vertex pistons from pro marine.

[Ajskennels]

Ive got a 98 2.5l 200 that has a 2.4l metal caged crank in it, no problems with it and it will twist 6500 all day longi did have to use the metal caged bearings but it works382618

[bullet123]

I've never heard of it working very long. Usually chews bearings up.

[Markus]

I'm not sure what a oiler crank is.

...

Best deal on oversize pistons I can find are Wiseco's. Should I go with them? I heard a lot of bad things although the machine shops swear by them.



An oiler crank is a crank for oil injection.

Wisecos might be better now than the used to, but do like the Captain says and get Vertex pistons from Pro Marine.

[tunnelmike]

+2 on pro marine vertex. Mike.

[tlwjkw]

Ive got a 98 2.5l 200 that has a 2.4l metal caged crank in it, no problems with it and it will twist 6500 all day longi did have to use the metal caged bearings but it works382618

guess your "livin' right".. i was to much of a "sinner" ta get away with that ****!

[Ajskennels]

The main bearing ID's are the same on all fishing motor blocks no matter if its a 2.0, 2.4, or 2.5, only diffrence ive found is the bearing journals on the crank are diffrent, use the correct bearings and you have no problems, i put a crank from a 78 175 2.0 into a 95 small bearing 260 and the guy has regulary turned it 8k for the past 3 summers, i put 1 from a 79 150 in another 95 260 just a few weeks ago, its only been ran in the driveway so i cant say about that one, and i cant say about any other hipo block either

[Ajskennels]

http://biggerhammer.net/mercury/

Click the link and scroll down to cranks, lots of good info on this page

[tlwjkw]

both of those have shouldered center mains and did not come from a 2.4.. tha shoulder allows ya ta run tha bigger OD plastic center mains in tha motors ya talkin' about... any 2.0 crank from '76 to whenever it went away will work.... but not a 2.4 crank unless its a hi performance, non-oilier crank..

and yes all tha ID's are tha same on ALL of 'em... its OD that changes..........

thats more Jay Smith but i'm more T-rex............

[Ajskennels]

Correct, the od on the crank changes, not the ids on the block, if you use the correct bearings any of them will work, not gonna get in a pissing match about this but i have a crank from 1985 2.4 liter mariner chrome bore 2 piece head 200 that ran a crank that required metal caged bearings in a 1998 mercury 2.5 liter steel bore 1 piece head 200, here is the welch plug serial #'s if you like to look them up382632382633

[racervboat]

well GMAFF first of all you member since 2013 with 6 posts and right off you bash s&f and say were full of b/s and we still give you the info your looking for but we s&flyers still help you if you don't like this site take a fing hike buddy. JMTC

[tlwjkw]

Correct, the od on the crank changes, not the ids on the block, if you use the correct bearings any of them will work, not gonna get in a pissing match about this but i have a crank from 1985 2.4 liter mariner chrome bore 2 piece head 200 that ran a crank that required metal caged bearings in a 1998 mercury 2.5 liter steel bore 1 piece head 200, here is the welch plug serial #'s if you like to look them up382632382633

ain't no pissin' match.... there is not a steel caged center main made by anyone that will fit tha OD required for a "fat block 2.0/2.4/2.5"... if there is gimme a part number?... so no tellin' what you put together...........

what ya did is use tha big od plastic ona non-shouldered crank..... which some do and get away with it.................................................. for awhile.

[gmaff]

Thanks for all your help guy's! I am confident that it is a 2.0L and will work just fine. I tracked down my old boat mechanic and showed it to him. He looked over the mock up and said it was fine. Also said that "Those guy's at Scream and fly are really smart". Also told me that burning the one piston was probably a lean condition and if I look at the carburetor the jet on the starboard side is for the cylinder on the port side. I surely would have missed that.

Can't find any cheap cast pistons. I thought "Sea Cross" might be okay but can't find a catalog. Trying to save $$$, $1000.00 for six pistons and resizing is more than I wanted to spend. The machinist said the starboard bank was in spec and could use std. pistons but told me my pistons are worn too much and shouldn't be reused. What's your thoughts on the Port bank at .015 oversize and the Starboard bank at std? The mechanic told me that without porting it would be pointless to run over 5500 rpm as it will be beyond the powerband.

[flabum1017]

well GMAFF first of all you member since 2013 with 6 posts and right off you bash s&f and say were full of b/s and we still give you the info your looking for but we s&flyers still help you if you don't like this site take a fing hike buddy. JMTC

He wasn't bashing S&F, he was saying a local shop was bashing S&F..........

[Capt.Insane-o]

Nothing wrong with wsm pistons either. Stay away from glm and wiseco for your build. A lot of wiseco have been popping up on eBay for cheap but they are older problematic stock.

[gmaff]

well GMAFF first of all you member since 2013 with 6 posts and right off you bash s&f and say were full of b/s and we still give you the info your looking for but we s&flyers still help you if you don't like this site take a fing hike buddy. JMTC

Read my post, Please don't misunderstand. I never bashed you guys, It was the boat shop that bashed you. When I told them I learned this stuff from you they told me that anything you read on Scream & Fly is B.S. and that it would not work! I not only believe you I took your advice from the start and did it and I'm sure it will work great! I put that in the title to get your attention! Please read this thread from the top.

Gary

[gmaff]

I looked at my intake behind the carbs to see why only the middle piston on the port side burned. Also, why is the whole port bank is worn out of spec. while the whole starboard bank is okay. I can see fuel staining behind all the starboard throttle bores while the port throttle bores are clean. This is troubling as how can a whole bank be leaner than the other with factory jetting (I need to check the jets). Could this be a fuel pressure problem? Sure don't want a relapse!

Gary

P.S Those "Boat Shop" guys are all in a click and run fast 90mph+ past my place every weekend. I plan to put this motor on my Shadow tunnel and be in their face running at least in the seventies making them eat their words! My Shadow is my slow boat. I have a 19' 1988 Eliminator Daytona in my garage with a 1999 Promax 225 I started putting together 10 years ago that should run with the best of them. I bought the motor new and it has never seen water. After a ride in a STV Euro 100mph I'm afraid to drive it.

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[eli]

I looked at my intake behind the carbs to see why only the middle piston on the port side burned. Also, why is the whole port bank is worn out of spec. while the whole starboard bank is okay. I can see fuel staining behind all the starboard throttle bores while the port throttle bores are clean. This is troubling as how can a whole bank be leaner than the other with factory jetting (I need to check the jets). Could this be a fuel pressure problem? Sure don't want a relapse!

Gary

P.S Those "Boat Shop" guys are all in a click and run fast 90mph+ past my place every weekend. I plan to put this motor on my Shadow tunnel and be in their face running at least in the seventies making them eat their words! My Shadow is my slow boat. I have a 19' 1988 Eliminator Daytona in my garage with a 1999 Promax 225 I started putting together 10 years ago that should run with the best of them. I bought the motor new and it has never seen water. After a ride in a STV Euro @100mph (http://www.screamandfly.com/member.php?u=2419) I'm afraid to drive it.

382666 most boats take some seat time and when your running 90/100 is a area that demand's full attention how the boat is handling, looking at gauges ,jet skis other boats ,wind ,boat waves ,trim etc lots of variables being afraid at that speed could cost you and others

[Chaz]

Read my post, Please don't misunderstand. I never bashed you guys, It was the boat shop that bashed you. When I told them I learned this stuff from you they told me that anything you read on Scream & Fly is B.S. and that it would not work! I not only believe you I took your advice from the start and did it and I'm sure it will work great! I put that in the title to get your attention! Please read this thread from the top.

Gary

The beauty lye's in the fact that you received 18 good response's before .. ;) ...>

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.aPlq7xvphs83BtwbQvCM7gDwDS&pid=Api&w=206&h=181

[Ajskennels]

haha I've watched your youtube vid about the first start in 5 years, nice rig

[phillnjack]

there is more good engineering advice on this forum that you could ever wish to find in any manuals or books.
Not only the correct way of doing things, but the advice on what to watch for and what not to do.
Plus when so many are professional engineers who specialise in outboard engines both high performance racing and recreational motors
How can a couple of dimwits say such a stupid thing ?
I almost forgot about those here who invent better parts than oem and are always looking for improvements to help in the longevity of engines.

Maybe they are not able to read and dont go on forums and learn new things ? maybe they spend a lot of time rectifying their mistakes ?

If I lived in the usa I would be looking for many of the engine builders on this site to build me a good strong motor, rather than put it in
the hands of people who mock a site like this.

just my thoughts on the topic.

[gmaff]

When I said afraid, I mean I can't just hit the go pedal I need to have the seat time you mentioned. I have run a 16' Sidewinder at around 60 and learned about chinewalk. I am not sure where to set the jack plate, I run it as high as I can for good bite and max speed but not sure if that's best. Trim on the Eliminator will be tough because I certainly don't want to blow over! This is way I'm building this motor for my Shadow. That boat is a heavier tunnel that should run in the seventies which will help me learn and work my way up to the Eliminator. One thing I learned from racing performance cars is to respect the machine and be very alert.

[Capt.Insane-o]

Get rid of the extra set back on the eliminator and bolt the motor right to the factory bracket 3/4 above the pad and run a 30-32 semi high rake cleaver.

[gmaff]

Get rid of the extra set back on the eliminator and bolt the motor right to the factory bracket 3/4 above the pad and run a 30-32 semi high rake cleaver.No jack plate??

[gmaff]

[Reply to phillnjack]
The guy I spoke with is a "Master Mechanic" from Mercury school. I know he is good because his successes run past my place regularly at 90MPH and a lot of folks on the lake use him. I made a remark that he wasn't aware of the "tricks" to the other guy who got defensive accusing me of saying the mechanic was incompetent and throwing out the S&F remark. I went there to get some free advise (5-min.) because I thought we were all friends. I was 99% sure what I learned here on S&F was correct I just wanted someone who put together these motors frequently who could peak at it and tell me if I missed anything. I'm a cheapskate and would rather spend my money on tools and do it myself. I learned by doing and started very young tinkering with lawn mowers then go-carts then cars and boats. Some guys just learn this stuff in school and don't grow up with it. I would trust the guy to build a good engine and stand behind it. I will never go back there because I didn't like their attitudes.

[Capt.Insane-o]

No jack plate??

Nope.

[rock]

[Reply to phillnjack]
The guy I spoke with is a "Master Mechanic" from Mercury school. I know he is good because his successes run past my place regularly at 90MPH and a lot of folks on the lake use him. I made a remark that he wasn't aware of the "tricks" to the other guy who got defensive accusing me of saying the mechanic was incompetent and throwing out the S&F remark. I went there to get some free advise (5-min.) because I thought we were all friends. I was 99% sure what I learned here on S&F was correct I just wanted someone who put together these motors frequently who could peak at it and tell me if I missed anything. I'm a cheapskate and would rather spend my money on tools and do it myself. I learned by doing and started very young tinkering with lawn mowers then go-carts then cars and boats. Some guys just learn this stuff in school and don't grow up with it. I would trust the guy to build a good engine and stand behind it. I will never go back there because I didn't like their attitudes.

One of my best friends is a master tech that owns a dealership and I feel the same about his abilities but he has little knowledge about modifications or what works with what. They know what they have been taught and work on them all from the 5 horse up to the current models but could not tell you the difference tween a top and bottom guided motor or probably even why there is a difference. My guess is that it's very common among dealers that don't hot rod or modify.

Rock

[RSWORDS]

As a mercury tech I will tell you that this is 100% true. It's two completely different worlds. You wouldn't go to you local Chevy dealership to build you a 700hp turbo LS motor. (Although I'm sure some have techs that could)
One of my best friends is a master tech that owns a dealership and I feel the same about his abilities but he has little knowledge about modifications or what works with what. They know what they have been taught and work on them all from the 5 horse up to the current models but could not tell you the difference tween a top and bottom guided motor or probably even why there is a difference. My guess is that it's very common among dealers that don't hot rod or modify.

Rock

[gmaff]

haha I've watched your youtube vid about the first start in 5 years, nice rig

You got me thinking... Hmm, haven't started that in years, maybe it's time to run some oil through it. Started today, running 16:1(Pre-mix) so that's why all the smoke.

Hot steamy water when thermostats open (heads are too hot to hold onto) Is this normal. Hasn't had the ECU recall for lean burn. What ECU do I need?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kbjY4Kex_8

Why a "T" Should this connect to something? I don't recall. Line on right goes to remote oil tank.

382982

Lots of air here - Looks like oil system is not working

382990

Had mice in garage last year (not in Promax!). Blocked entry as insurance.

382991

[Ajskennels]

The "T" is for the remote oil tank, should be a hose on the starbord side bottom under the starter going into a valve that pressureizes the remote tank then the other hose from the tank goes into that "T"

[gmaff]

The "T" is for the remote oil tank, should be a hose on the starbord side bottom under the starter going into a valve that pressureizes the remote tank then the other hose from the tank goes into that "T"

From the tank there is a twin hose and both are connected, one to that "T" and one to the block, I think. I tried blowing through the "T" and couldn't. It's not too important anyway because I plan to strip all the oil Inj off and run premix only. I like the secure feeling of knowing if it running its also burning oil too.

Gary

[tlwjkw]

nothin' goes on tha bare nipple.. its a relief.

[Capt.Insane-o]

143 degree t stats the heads should be very warm to the touch at idle.