Ethanol

[Scream And Fly]

Hi Everyone,

I thought to put together a feature on the experience of members with ethanol-based fuel. I've talked to several people, especially with direct-injected outboards that reported that ethanol was responsible for some pretty major engine problems.

Also, the Skater fuel tank issue - was this proven to be a direct result of ethanol?

Maybe we can put together a map of known ethanol-free gas stations, especially near the popular boating events.

Thanks!
Greg

[XstreamVking]

I am kinda surprised that with ethanol laced fuels being the most available for a long time now, that more people haven't gotten used to dealing with them. I run it in everything I have. Including several opti's. Premium or regular grade. Besides fuel lines needing changed, the only other thing I do is drain the fuel out of my tanks when I know it will sit for any extended period. No problems....Do I like it? NO. Is it gonna ruin my day? NO. It's not going away...

[dwilfong]

It is already bin done for ya...http://pure-gas.org/

[XstreamVking]

If all they do is leave out the ethanol, why is that crap so much more?

[97mirage]

Not trying to high jack this thread, but the ethanol reporting on our site here has scared the pants off me so I've been looking for some new ethanol resistant fuel lines for my carbureted engines. This winter, I picked up 50' of 3/8" Marpac fuel line and 3 new Marpac primer bulbs. The line and bulbs are blue in color. Anybody ever try it or hear of it? Gonna give these items a try this summer.

[Capt.Insane-o]

I'm good with ethanol, it makes me a pile of money.

[Euroski]

What year did the 10% ethanol mandate start?

[powerabout]

I think they should only have gas with zero ethanol and 100% ethanol so needs to be cheaper to use it? ( thats after it becomes financially and environmentally sensible - likely never)
Then boats need sealed fuel systems like cars so it can be stored.

[Michael J Giesler]

If all they do is leave out the ethanol, why is that crap so much more?

Because the oil companies know they got us plain and simple

[nitro_rat]

If all they do is leave out the ethanol, why is that crap so much more?

The ethanol is an octane booster. You take crap 80-something octane gas, add 10% ethanol and now you have something that has enough octane to use as motor fuel. Ethanol is much cheaper than tolulene and similar aromatics traditionally used to boost octane.

Added bonus for the gas companies is that the ethanol will allow a certain amout of water to homogenize in the fuel mixture, and that water they sell you for the same price as gasoline at the pump!

So they aren't just leaving out the ethanol, they have to replace it with more expensive ingredients to make real gas...

[Mark75H]

The ethanol is an octane booster. You take crap 80-something octane gas, add 10% ethanol and now you have something that has enough octane to use as motor fuel. Ethanol is much cheaper than tolulene and similar aromatics traditionally used to boost octane.

Added bonus for the gas companies is that the ethanol will allow a certain amout of water to homogenize in the fuel mixture, and that water they sell you for the same price as gasoline at the pump!

So they aren't just leaving out the ethanol, they have to replace it with more expensive ingredients to make real gas...

Catalytic cracking of reasonable base stocks cuts it to about break even.

Here in the east, ethanol from Michigan is hauled in by sealed railcar. Its not 'cheap'

[DanUmbarger]

I like and use the Marpac blue fuel line but I personally don't like their bulbs. I use the OMC bulbs...I think they are the best bulbs out there.


Not trying to high jack this thread, but the ethanol reporting on our site here has scared the pants off me so I've been looking for some new ethanol resistant fuel lines for my carbureted engines. This winter, I picked up 50' of 3/8" Marpac fuel line and 3 new Marpac primer bulbs. The line and bulbs are blue in color. Anybody ever try it or hear of it? Gonna give these items a try this summer.

[capt bart]

The only thing ethanol is good for is a weight reducer and wart remover . It doesn't work on me , just on the girl I'm looking at while I'm drinking it .

[flabum1017]

We've seen a lot of issues with ethanol fuel here in South Fla. It eats up fuel lines, even the ethanol resistant ones, eats up floats, corrodes aluminum parts such as fuel reservoirs and fuel tanks, it collects water and eats up fiberglass fuel tanks like those in Bertrams. We also suspect it degrades the older plastic fuel tanks as well. We make a bunch of money off ethanol fuels.................

[H2OPERF]

I have the latest blue and the teflon liner separated and collapsed in the fuel line last week and almost stranded me, lucky it was just before the bulb and i had some slack to cut out. Like was said above.. Corrodes the alum tanks ect, why i put klotz oil in my etec tank every time i fuel up..Dave

[flabum1017]

I have the latest blue and the teflon liner separated and collapsed in the fuel line last week and almost stranded me, lucky it was just before the bulb and i had some slack to cut out. Like was said above.. Corrodes the alum tanks ect, why i put klotz oil in my etec tank every time i fuel up..Dave

I usually stick with the Shields black hose. No liner to collapse and seems to last the longest. The MPI hose is ok, but doesn't seem to last as long and the Marpac, Silverado etc with the liners are the worst IMO.

http://www.boatersland.com/shl116-368-0125.html

[matty b]

I like and use the Marpac blue fuel line but I personally don't like their bulbs. I use the OMC bulbs...I think they are the best bulbs out there.

X2 on the omc primer bulbs and hose. I always use it for a replacement.

[olboatman]

If all they do is leave out the ethanol, why is that crap so much more?

One reason I would think is because they don't have a large enough market Cullen. I beleive another is that it is used in the aviation industry and that alone would bring up the price. I agree that you need to either use it or loose it! Startron Enzyme also helps. Gary

[flabum1017]

Ethanol fuel in an airplane is illegal because it traps water............. but ok for the rest of the country.

[DanUmbarger]

So far I haven't had any problems with the Marpac blue....Silverado and the grey Mercury hose is bad hose IMO...liners collapse all the time. I'm going to keep a closer eye on the Marpac.



I usually stick with the Shields black hose. No liner to collapse and seems to last the longest. The MPI hose is ok, but doesn't seem to last as long and the Marpac, Silverado etc with the liners are the worst IMO.

http://www.boatersland.com/shl116-368-0125.html

[DanUmbarger]

I fly an Ultralight with a Rotax 503 and use the 10% blended fuel all the time....that's all we have in northern Illinois. Just found a gas station about 15 miles from me (in Wisconsin) that's supposed to have straight fuel so I think i'll go there to get my premium fuel for my 1975 135 Johnson.




Ethanol fuel in an airplane is illegal because it traps water............. but ok for the rest of the country.

[powerabout]

Can you use avgas in a rotax?

[DanUmbarger]

I've heard you can but they don't like it much....fouls plugs I guess. I've always run regular 87 w 10% and have never had a problem...I prolly have 7-800 hrs on 2 engines...problem free( doing the normal decarboning at about 250-300 hrs). I do use Merc Quickleen in my fuel at every fill up and rings seem to stay free and clean so far.



Can you use avgas in a rotax?

[Tundrabasser]

Ive had the lining come out of the blue fuel line too, would bog the engine down bad.

[olboatman]

Ive had the lining come out of the blue fuel line too, would bog the engine down bad.

Was gonna buy some for my Viper project......NOT NOW!!!!!! Thanks again! Gary

[David - WI]

Interesting page from Gates Rubber Co.: http://www.gates.com/oreilly/tech_tips/AlternativeFuelsandHoseCompatibility.pdf

E85

85 percent Ethanol with 15 percent gasoline is not an aggressive fuel with respect to rubber compounds.
(They recommend) Any grade of nitrile rubber designed to handle refined gasoline


E15

15 percent ethanol level is more chemically aggressive with respect to rubber materials than 85 percent ethanol
(They recommend) Very good grades of nitrile compounds are recommended, these hose types include MPI/Fuel Injection hose 4219D and Marine Fuel Line C5M

[Tundrabasser]

I don't remember what manufacturer that was but it was on a 2013 boat in 2014 and I believe it said for use with ethanol on it.

[Bruce2]

http://www.pure-gas.org/

[David - WI]

C5M Marine Fuel Hose mention in the Gates article: http://www.gates.com/products/automotive/hydraulics/hydraulic-hose/fleet-applications/c5m-marine-fuel-line-hose

[HydroHaulic]

here was my nightmare... pulled both saddle tanks and had cleaned!


https://youtu.be/1XDbTxSIQ44

[dwilfong]

8C5M gates hose is $12.39 a foot at NAPA....................HOLY CRAP BAT MAN........................

[mach351]

I've used push-lok and twist-lok hose for fuel line from either summit or jegs for years with zero problems. Used straight gas, race fuel, E10, and E85 all with the same hose. Don't be afraid to look into the car world for ethanol (or methanol) capable fuel products. ALWAYS cheaper than dedicated "marine" crap.

[XstreamVking]

Shields A-1 fuel feed hose has been in my boats for years.......No issues. No liners, no hardening or permeation.

[David - WI]

Shields A-1 fuel feed hose has been in my boats for years.......No issues. No liners, no hardening or permeation.

This is also interesting. Not negative, just interesting:


WARNING - Special care should be taken when coupling Shields series 331, 337 and 368 EPA approved barrier fuel hoses. Always use a lubricant when inserting a fitting. Oil based or other lubricants designed for rubber or plastic assembly should be used. Silicone is not recommended as it may cause coupling retention issues. Over-sized fittings should not be used. The fitting should slide into the hose with minimum, but some, resistance. Using fittings with oversized barbs may result in damage to the barrier layer. If the fitting is too small it may not be possible to get a good seal. Sierra recommends the use of Oetiker stepless ear clamps or worm drive clamps to attach the fuel hose. Do not use wire ties or spring tension clamps. Over-tightening a worm drive clamp may result in damage to the inner layer and cause fuel to get in between the layers. This will cause the layers to separate and block the flow of fuel.

[XstreamVking]

This is the stuff...http://www.iboats.com/Shields-Fire-Acol-Fuel-Feed-Vent-And-Fill-Hose/dm/view_id.45038
Use the sandvik hi quality clamps and no lube going onto fittings. One set of this had been on my big boat since 2001. And was still good to go. Did not need replacing, but I did anyway....Still would not make black crud on your hands when handling the hose.

[flabum1017]

This is also interesting. Not negative, just interesting:

We use these (stainless steel version) on all fuel lines.

373361

[XstreamVking]

I call those EFI clamps....They are good also...

[DanUmbarger]

What type of clamps are sandvik? I've never heard of them.


This is the stuff...http://www.iboats.com/Shields-Fire-Acol-Fuel-Feed-Vent-And-Fill-Hose/dm/view_id.45038
Use the sandvik hi quality clamps and no lube going onto fittings. One set of this had been on my big boat since 2001. And was still good to go. Did not need replacing, but I did anyway....Still would not make black crud on your hands when handling the hose.

[XstreamVking]

http://www.scandvik.com/index.cfm/method/Shopping_ABAHoseClamps/id/5.htm

[captglm]

Used non ethanol in my 150 intruder today. It Seem to idel better and run much better. Bought it at wawa it was $2.83 a gallon. Reugular was $2.43.

[pcrussell50]

If all they do is leave out the ethanol, why is that crap so much more?

Market forces, mate.

In 2016 Obama was allowing (something like) 2 million gallons of ethanol-free gasoline to be produced. Before he left, he gave us the finger and signed an order do that 2017 going forward, there would only be a quarter of that, 250,000 gallons (something like) of ethanol-free gasoline produced. Don't hold me to exact numbers... It shouldn't be too hard to find out what, though.

-Peter

[David - WI]

We use almost 400 million gallons of gasoline per day in the US.

Ethanol is subsidized slightly more than gasoline; if you don't count the multi-trillion dollar foreign wars to secure the supply of gasoline. :nonod:

[powerabout]

The gulf of mexico pumps more oil than OPEC and has since 2014
The USA now exports oil and gas.
Not sure what oil based wars are for anymore?

[BarryStrawn]

The gulf of mexico pumps more oil than OPEC and has since 2014
The USA now exports oil and gas.
Not sure what oil based wars are for anymore?

US is not a net exporter of oil and gas. Currently about 10 million barrels a day import and 5 million export. We currently consume about 20 million barrels a day. Our primary national interest in the middle east is keeping Saudi Arabia stable.

[racervboat]

in mpls,mn all the hot rod [car guys] are pretty much msra Minnesota street rod association members and the association for the upper Midwest around the state publishes in the local news letter ie linechaser mag and on line the gas stations that sell ethanol free fuel for us to buy in or older motor vehicles.Check your local car clubs for this info you would be amazed they have the list your looking for for ethanol free fuel in your area.

[powerabout]

If you put up with ethanol why not use methanol.
Is it cheaper in the usa?

[David - WI]

If you put up with ethanol why not use methanol.
Is it cheaper in the usa?
Methanol is toxic and corrosive... Ethanol is nice. :cheers:

[olboatman]

Methanol is toxic and corrosive..<script id="gpt-impl-0.9229648419006262" src="https://securepubads.g.doubleclick.net/gpt/pubads_impl_114.js"></script>. Ethanol is nice. :cheers:

I don't know if I would call ethanol "nice"! lol:eek: :D Gary

[HStream1]

The Puregas.com has been around for awhile and anyone can add a station location to the Puregas site. With that said I went to a station yesterday to buy 93 AS Advertised NON Ethanol to mix up some 102 for lower compression break in heads. I took my ethanol tester with me. Guess what!!!?? It had 5% Ethanol. When I brought it to the stores attendant she simply looked at me like I had three heads. Glad there is a Air Port Close by. So a call to the North Carolina Weights and Measures division was done as soon as I returned back to the shop. I know its not the Station/store that blends the fuel, its done at the distribution center. But had that store told me Sorry they would look into it I probably wouldnt have made the call. NON Ethanol 93 is almost $1.00 higher than 93 10% Ethanol??? Doesnt make sense. It costs more to produce Ethanol than it does Gasoline.

[XstreamVking]

My regular gas station owner and I were talking while I was fueling my old camaro that has a 10.6 to 1 stroker in it. He said from the fuel testing he had seen, all the 93 oct. fuel he sold was way lower in ethanol than regular. Some as low as 1-2%. My car loves the stuff. Reg. was always close to the 10%. The sign on the pump says UP TO 10%. I always thought the rec gas was a scam.....

[powerabout]

I wonder how cheap methanol is to make?
Most parts of the world it is not taxed
Mileage not so good but can make more power than ethanol
http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/2010/05/21/methanol-versus-ethanol-technical-merits-and-political-favoritism/

(http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/2010/05/21/methanol-versus-ethanol-technical-merits-and-political-favoritism/)

Might be cheaper to run even though you use twice as much?
Plus castor oil and then flush with regular gas and tcw3 end of the day?