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ScottyG
04-16-2003, 03:54 PM
85 Vector/2002 XR6...I just finished laying in my new core(all Klegecell 75)I put 6oz matt under the Klegcell and am going to cover it in 24oz biweave.I have been using west system epoxy for all of it.I was curious as the most difficult part has been weighing down the Klegcell so each piece has no voids under it.In retrospect if I did it again, which I won't be(ha ha ha) I would have vacumn bagged each section as I have been playing with concrete blocks and old car batteries to hold each section to the hull while the epoxy sets up.I have had three small areas that didn't bond to my liking so I cut the non-adhering sections out, re-sanded,cut a new piece of Klegecell and put it in with heavy weights on top of it.I have found scrimming the Klegecell helps it conform to curves but compound curves are tricky.Has anyone who used Klegecell of anything else as core had similar experinces?I can't wait until its done as I am 6 months into this project.I dream of that first 70mph run and anchoring in the Great South Bay on a 80F summer day with a ice cold brewski.Scotty

TTriton
04-16-2003, 06:59 PM
What you are doing is the best way to do it without vaccume bagging. I use foam ALOT and I have a stack of blocks that I use to weigh down on parts that I am laying up.. But the best way without bagging is to do one side of a part at a time. If you are trying to lay up the front and back of a flat part at the same time you are asking for LARGE voids.. You can see some pics of the foam cored project that I am working on now you can see them here..

http://216.89.228.164/mine/Copy%20of%20rebuilding%20poseidon%20two/index.htm

Techno
04-17-2003, 04:56 PM
I did seats that had to curve. They sell it already scored and a wood working trick is to kerf the material. I cut kerfs in where it had to curve, covered the inside and sanded the outside before covering, to fair it.
The voids might have happend from the solid foam not wanting to bend there, so a kerf or several might help in cases like this.
You can see the seat on my site, forgot what page it's on- foam?

A wieght that might work and is cheap is a garbage bag full of water.
8lbs/gallon- 64lbs per cubic foot.
A bag in a box would concentrate it too.

wing nut
04-23-2003, 01:41 PM
hey,

where do you boat? im from LI (bellmore) i have a 14ft vixen im almost done re-building.

scott

ScottyG
04-23-2003, 03:58 PM
I launch from the town marina in West Islip and boat on the Great South Bay basically as far west as the Gilgo Inn and as far east as Flynns on Fire Island.My Klegcell core is done and glassed in now. I am building the deck/floor.I can't believe after 6 months of scraping rotten smelly balsa and sanding in my space suit and gas mask I am coming down the home stretch.Where do you run your Vixen?Maybe we can meet at Gilgo for some beers this summer?Scotty

wing nut
04-23-2003, 04:59 PM
i useually launch at wantaugh park. i may start goin to tanner though b/c thats where every1 is lol. beers.. my dad wouldnt be to happy about that b/c im 17 but..yea lol! i go to zavhs bay and sutff alot. just to hang out or cruise around.

scott

ScottyG
04-23-2003, 08:08 PM
It good to see a young person getting into boating.(especially performance boating) As soon as I can get a digital camera I will post some pics of my Vector.Scotty

MN4V
04-26-2003, 11:53 AM
Here's a project I'm working on now. It's a curved wall made of 4 layers of 1/8" bending birch plywood, laminated with West System and vaccum bagged in a form.

gojo
05-13-2003, 09:34 PM
Would not be to concerned about minor voids.Can always drill two holes one high and one low in void .Using west system syringes and utilizing basic hydrostatic pressure techniques you can inject the void on low side with a high bond stuctual mix using one of the many west system products available.Use disposable syringe to swing the job.Stay away from the sillica as it is great for filleting cove bonds and tumble home curves but will clog your syringe and ruin your rubber gloves.Dont forget the epoxy cleaner as any spilled epoxy on your water rocket will be permanent unless you hit it with a deck grinder 40 grit .BURLAP BAGS FILLED WITH BEACH SAND IS THE WAY TO GO ON THE PRESSURE FITTING BALSA, FOAM ETC. ON initial glue down.Old trick learned from some delapidated clam digger who used to build garveys on the south shore of L.I. Keep the paste wet on all applications of west system products. A dry or insufficient mix on all post bonding stuctual repair jobs can be disastrous. Over saturation with epoxy from what I understand is not a problem as the reaction is endothermic rather than exothermic as with polyester post bonding methods.Good luck, keep it safe and watch out for rogue waves.

Liqui-Fly
05-14-2003, 11:43 AM
Gojo your statements about epoxy are not true. The chemistry of epoxy is an exothermic reaction just as PE resins are.

David

gojo
05-14-2003, 08:10 PM
David,
I stand corrected.The molecular post bond and its relationship with heat generation and its osmotic rerlationship to h20 migration is still far superior with epoxy, your right though,heat is still generated in the mix ,but the amount of heat released and its cure time , molecular stucture and etching to other surfaces still requires proper wet out. Any one who has owned a vector will confirm this as they usually end up ripping out some inferior bonded ,dry mat weave off a rotten plywood deck of their cockpit floor,more sooner than much later!

heath brinkley
05-14-2003, 08:18 PM
In English please. Very limited English. then maybe I'll understand it.;)

gojo
05-14-2003, 08:27 PM
SIMPLY PUT MY MAN, use epoxy on all repairs requiring structual and water proof integrity. Dig deep ,do it right and sit safe. Dont mix and match materials. Stick with a layed out game plan and dont put a 50 dollar prop on a 10000 dollar motor.
COMPRENDE

Liqui-Fly
05-15-2003, 07:04 AM
Epoxy is da chit...period. It takes a little more prep on finshed products but it bonds bonds bonds.

David

heath brinkley
05-15-2003, 07:29 AM
epoxy....got it.;) you mean on coring right? stringers and transoms as well?

Liqui-Fly
05-15-2003, 07:32 AM
I mean everyting. Anytime you are secondary bonding I use it...I guess if I lived in a hot dry region I might mess with polyesters but I don't much see the point unless you are building a new boat.

This is just my opinion.

David

H2Onut
05-15-2003, 07:36 AM
EPOXY EPOXY EPOXY, dont be swayed by others, 1 way to go EPOXY !

heath brinkley
05-15-2003, 08:41 AM
what do you use for primary bonding? and what do you bond secondary? Do you guys get everything from west?

I just had my Vegas done because I wanted it done quickly. I sold my boat and the Veags turned from project to needing it by summer. It needed everything core, stringer repair, floor, not to mention a 4' x 2' section of the bottom cut out and redone. No way I would have finished it in 2 months. I have a Vector though that will be a project, since I have no need for the boat anytime soon. This is why I'm bugging you with questions. I thought you used fiberglass for all that stuff.

Liqui-Fly
05-15-2003, 08:50 AM
You still use fiberglass just use epoxy as the resin. Go to
www.westsystem.com and read read read

David

heath brinkley
05-15-2003, 09:04 AM
Thanks

gojo
05-15-2003, 04:51 PM
Heath,
Thats a roger on the epoxy. West System is the way to go .Its expensive but you can bite the bullet and buy in bulk. Gougeon brothers have this stuff and its components down to a science.They have literature available for all your needs.If you got the cash and want to keep das boot for eternity ,go for it , if not go for the less expensive polyester resins available ( many brands out there) get a good carbon filter mask to keep the M.E.K.A OUT OF your body and get stinkin dude.Note* primary bonding and lay up occurs when boat is initially made layed up in mold sprayed with Pva and all layers cure simultaneously in mold within there own heat generated oxygen depraved setting. POST bondind is anything we do to fix,repair,alter, etc . etc. after initial lay up has cured. New boat repairs ,old boat repairs and so on. Chemical engineers could right thosands of pages on this but hopefully you got the idea, if not I am sure others on this site will lead you to the epoxy and styrene gods.

ScottyG
05-15-2003, 07:55 PM
Anybody have any carpet suggestions,also i see West marine sells different boat deck carpets etc anyone use any of this stuff?I have abandoned the No-Skid floor idea and decided to go with comfort for my bare feet.The boat stays in the garage so the carpet will be out of the weather.I can't believe the core is done and the floor is in.I used West system for everything so I will give operational reports to all interested once I start floggin this Vector again.I would buy a digital camera to post pics but West marine has all my money.Scotty

Techno
05-15-2003, 08:07 PM
My original idea for the floor was using 1/4" closed cell foam. gluing it down and cutting V shapes the length (The pleats).
Then this was getting covered with outdoor fabric, not rug. They have quite a bit of colors now and even some patterns if you want a pattern thing happenin. For my use I doubted it would wear at all since it's not a pontoon boat.
The cloth was getting glued only in the Vees.

If your set on rug there is also a huge selecton of that compared to hardware stores or boat stores.

Now I'm doing a sand castle thing.

heath brinkley
05-16-2003, 06:41 AM
gojo that clears up the primary, sec. question, thanks. Now you guys see how this sounds. If I'm putting fiberglass on foam, the foam they use in boats for floatation can get waterlogged, so I was thinking styrofoam. Anyway I want to fill a 8'x5' area with styrofoam and cover it with glass (like a surfoard) will either epoxy or resin desinigrate the styrofoam on contact. Is there another type of foam I could use, the floatation they use in boats will not work since it gets waterlogged. What do they use in surfboards? that may work, but whatever I use can't absorb water.

gojo
05-16-2003, 08:01 PM
Go with the urethane foams ,airex and other types manufactured for coring .The beer cooler styrofoam will disentegrate on exposure to the chemicals and you will be sad.Try local reinforced plastics testing labs in your area . They will lead you in the right direction.www.defender industries .com sells all this stuff and more. WEST Marine is limited to this stuff.

heath brinkley
05-16-2003, 08:13 PM
thanks.

Techno
05-16-2003, 09:13 PM
Epoxy won't damage styrofoam but poly will melt it.
It depends on what your doing with this 8 x 5 foot area. Is it floatation or structural like a floor? If it's floatation you need alot of foam to float. 64lbs. per cubic foot is what water wieghs.
The structural foam will break the bank at this amount.
4" thick will float about than 600 lbs. possibly more submerged.

sho305
05-17-2003, 12:26 AM
I think I used this stuff: http://www.overtons.com/cgi-bin/overtons/order/pdetail.cgi?30213DS++ 20oz. Is much better than non-marine outdoor stuff. Should be a pic of it on well and floor in my post bayliner transom.

Yes, that epoxy sticks. I had a drip of west sys, and I knocked it off and pulled a chunk of gelcoat out. Unsanded, unclean area on bottom. No way I thought, and did it again! Had to grind it off and repair the little spots. Could have been something to do with cheesy bayliner hull, but it was ok for 20 years of use before that. Looking for other stuff to glue together with it....:)

Isn't that expanding spray foam ok for floatation? I have boxes in mine, I was thinking of lining them with a heavy plastic bag, and foaming/securing empty 20oz coke bottles in. Mine are closed in with thin ply, just glass them back shut.

Techno
05-17-2003, 09:00 AM
The expanding foam stuff should be used with caution. It will expand with no concern of it's enclosure and may distort the items inclosing it.
If your using a lot use the 2 part foam rather than the bottled stuff.
It claims to be closed cell foam but seems to be open by the amount of water it holds.

Coke bottles???
Coke bottles are made of glass and add too much parasitic poundage.

I'm not sure but think you can use 2/3rds the weight of your boat for floatation. For a swamped floating result. The mass in the water would weigh 2/3rds what it does in the air thing.

sho305
05-18-2003, 10:24 PM
The 20oz bottles here are plastic just like a 2 liter. The idea is to use the foam to secure the bottles from movement and take up most of the space between. End with a brick of foamed together bottles. Trim the top when done to fit the lid, close up the bag good, and glass shut. The bottles are very light and durable, I don't think 2 liters will fit. Thought the bottles might weight less than foam, and will never get water in them.:confused:

Liqui-Fly
05-19-2003, 07:45 AM
I just dug 5 (more) 30 gaoolon pails of foam out of the Fly this weeknd. It was completely saturated with water in some spots and when I was done I had approximately 1/2" of standing water in certain locations. Epoxy is a solventless system so it won't do damage to foams and servives with contact like polyester resins will. The coolest flotation system I've ever seen in a boat was airtight boxes with a tire valve in them to pressurize them with air. I forget what he put in for PSI's but he said he hasn't had to fill them since the boat was built; that they have maintained their pressure.

David

Techno
05-19-2003, 06:15 PM
My idea was to glass in styrofoam but above the bottom, maybe along the sides. My STV has a large amount of useless space though so this may not work for most.
My thought is whatever your floatation is it should float the engine. If the boat breaks, voids will do no good if they are compromised. ( the air tanks are broked).

Liqui-Fly
05-19-2003, 09:24 PM
But if these things broke that would mean you had a crash that is gonna occupy greater concerns than a powerhead. I like your idea though. I guess stategic positioning would take the nitemare of taking foam out again away.

BTW Techno...you gonna make the Romp or atleast pop in?

David

Techno
05-19-2003, 10:03 PM
I don't think I'll make it.

I figure the crash to be the ultimate need for floatation. If you forgot to put in your drain plugs then you should come up with idiot proof ones instead of floatation!!!

sho305
05-19-2003, 10:28 PM
I was eyeballing that clear thing with the ball in it for my plug, but I just could not trust something that easy.:rolleyes:

My idea was the bottles would be nice and tight, but may make noise; and you loose the space between...that I could fill with foam and use the bag around it all to seal it. It would come out fast with the bag liner too. Maybe I could just fill the bag with platic bottles and styrofoam beads, and glass it shut? I would have to weigh/compare the styrofoam and bottles. Those 2 liters are indestructable.

Once had a beater truck, and I sat in the passenger side to work on the dash. It was much firmer seat....so I stuffed those soda bottles under the driver seat. After some adjusting they worked nicely for years.

heath brinkley
05-20-2003, 11:40 AM
what I'm doing is this. You know those old paddle boats, where 2 people sat side by side, and peddled bicycle style peddles hooked to a big paddle. Well I found on of those and cut the deck off and jerked all the hardware out. now I have just the bottom. it's about 8' long 5' wide 1 1/2' deep. It's plastic and it looks loke a little offshore cat. I can get in it with both kids anf=d the dog and it will float, so floatation is not a problem. I wanted to fill it with foam and galss the top and make a floating dock for the kids. I didn't want to use the foam in boats because it gets wet and heavy. styrofoam wont absorb water but I was afraid the glass would dissinigrate it. You said epoxy wont though.

Techno
05-20-2003, 05:54 PM
Epoxy won't melt it. Might even be able to fill it with the popcorn packaging stuff.

heath brinkley
05-20-2003, 08:24 PM
Techno, I'll get started on it:)

sho305
05-20-2003, 10:28 PM
I have no clue on cost, but a foam shop can cut you the styrofoam to any shape you want within reason. They use hot wire, like in a toaster. You can rig up a bow that way and do it by hand if you have a block, or glue sheets together.

I don't know how the epoxy will stick to the plastic, if plastic, some were glass. You can get repair stuff for plastic car bumper covers at autobody places that will work well on the plastic. Like if you need to plug the pedal holes.

heath brinkley
05-21-2003, 05:37 AM
I was going to silicone some plastic over the holes, but that may work better.

sho305
05-21-2003, 10:15 AM
Thought of a couple more things: be sure to wash the plastic well with a solvent before you try to stick something to it, very important. Use naptha or lighter fluid if you don't have a specific cleaner and wipe it off good and dry. Grind the edges some of course.

What also may work well on that, but I am not positive, is that 5200 3M marine sealer. It was 10-12 bucks for a culk tube I used on my transom and is white. The stuff is unreal! The only thing I would use to culk/seal water from now on. I think it is urethane like used on auto windshields. Like silicone but much tougher and more glue like. Can't pull it apart/off with your fingers. You might even get some from a glass shop if you want black, if you need to culk the top on. I am guessing it would stick to the plastic.

I have a jackplate now, and hope my motor comes off ok. I glued it on there good with the 5200.:eek: I was thinking the other day of getting an old maybe 15' trihull, and putting a flat deck on it for small lake fishing. Just take the sawzall to it...;) Just an ugly utility boat. Maybe use a pontoon console in the center is all and a 20hp so it was key start.

Oops that is **5200** 3M Marine Adhesive/Sealant. Corrected.:rolleyes:

heath brinkley
05-21-2003, 01:26 PM
If it's anything like winsheild glue it's definitly tough enough.