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Whitetrashwonder
01-25-2017, 11:29 PM
First thread on here. So forgive me if my scream and fly etiquette isn't on point with your liking.

Bought a BIG O a while back. If you're not familiar, they have the same pocket lake and bay hull design with a different deck layout. It's a dry, fast, fishing machine. I'm running a '15 250 H.O. etec with a three blade 26p raker II that looked like my 6 year old took a grinding wheel to the blades and made them paper thin. When I got it the previous owner claimed he never took it over 70 and I soon found out why as I found myself at 74 doing a little chine jig and wondering how my children would turn out knowing their dad killed himself on a boat he'd only owned a few hours. Drive through it they said.... that is false. After a little seat time, I found that jacking it to the sky would give me enough lift to sit on the pad without going through that near death experience. I ran it a few times and got to 80 once but never had conditions to get comfortable. The majority of the time I was on a fishin mission. I decided I wanted to play with props so I took it out to get all the (WOT) info I felt like I needed to start my prop search. Well wouldn't you know that about 5 minutes after launching I hit floating debris and got a few pretty wicked wounds on my existing prop. With all of that drama being said I'm at square one with trying to figure out what I need to be looking for as far as props go to keep a decent hole shot as well as top end while tournament loaded. Hoping to get some pointers from somebody with experience with L&B or big o. Thanks in advance. If I can figure out how to post a picture of the rig I will

XstreamVking
01-26-2017, 06:37 AM
I run a 27p worked merc tempest on mine, and like the good plane off and good mid cruise. Wot, running light, I get 83 with a 225 opti. Right on the limiter at 5800. As far as the chine walk, check that the boat is balanced from side to side. Engine mounted square on the transom, skeg is straight, bottom has the same shape from side to side. Should be straight or have a very slight hook.. Lot of little things that get a boat squared away, and stay controllable at speed. Above all, be careful till you get some seat time and learn the boat.

Whitetrashwonder
01-26-2017, 07:05 AM
Thanks! Yeah I've done the weight distribution shuffle. Entering everything is pretty spot on as far placement and weight distribution.

Whitetrashwonder
01-26-2017, 07:06 AM
Forget that entering part. I don't know how that got in there

scawd the dog
01-27-2017, 08:47 AM
TRY A Merc Promax 28 . I think that may help you.

Whitetrashwonder
01-27-2017, 09:00 AM
Thanks, Brent! I got ahold of Vincent at ARG Marine in west Palm yesterday. He broke it down for me to better understand. I'm gonna get my hands on a 26 Raker H.O. next week to try if everything works out right. I wouldn't mind going up in pitch, but I don't really want to sacrifice my hole shot by doing so.

Radiant
04-17-2017, 10:35 AM
Instead of starting a new thread, I figured I would ask a question on this one to keep the information in the same place for people searching like I was.

Background: I have a splash hull I bought. It has a a 200 Black Max, fishing case with a bob's nose cone. I have yet to get it in the water as I am doing a full rewire on the hull, and I went ahead and tore down the whole motor and I am adding solid mounts as the old rubber ones were worn out. I only tore it down because the exhaust tuner had corroded so bad that chunks had fallen off, so I needed to replace it.

The boat came with a 23p early merc high 5 I think, Boat hasn't moved since 96 so everything is from that era. Past owner had quite a few props and said the boat had no problem doing 70+. Everything I read points towards the tempest. I'd like to have 2 props, one for speed and another for when I have people on the boat cruising. I'll know more when I run it with that 5 blade, but I am thinking that might not be the best prop for my application.

Any insight is much appreciated

XstreamVking
04-17-2017, 11:43 AM
I run a 27p tempest that's a lil worked on my flats boat. 225 opti. Works real well...It's similar to a lake and bottom/big O hull.

Whitetrashwonder
04-22-2017, 01:12 PM
I did a little prop testing the other day. Although I think I need to jump up in pitch, here are my results.

Bblades 26p blaster 4 blade chopper- awesome hole shot. When I stabbed it, I felt like it jumped a foot out of the water. The bow lift was crazy on take off. But I was able to get up while the Jack plate was at its highest positron without having to Jack back down. Any other prop I've ran wants to cavitate even when I'm jacked all the way down. It handled like a racecar. Top speed 66mph @ 6200rpm (the gentleman from Bblades recommended that I jump up to a 28p on that prop to get me down to 5750 rpm @ WOT.)

Mercury tempest 26p 4 blade- ok hole shot. Again, around 65mph I was at 6200 rpm. I was not very impressed with this prop.

Mercury fury 26p 3 blade- at this stage it was the best all around prop. Had a good hole shot, handled very nice, I was at 76mph when I hit 6200rpm (I think I either need to jump up in pitch, or add cup to reduce my rpm's.)

Raker 26p stock- horrible hole shot, 70 mph @ 6200 rpm. I sent it back twice to get them to add cup to reduce 500rpm. After the second time, my hole shot came back decent and I jumped up to the high 70's on top end but I'm still at 6200 wot.

As soon as I save a little coin, I plan on trying that bblades 28p that they recommended. Hopefully the hole shot will be just as good while still giving me good numbers @ WOT.

I will update once I've tried it.

Radiant- I had a similar set up as you're speaking of, the prop I ran was a stock 4 blade powertech. I don't know what kind of powertech though. It had a good hole shot and 75 mph @5500rpm.
Hope this helps you.

XstreamVking
04-22-2017, 01:29 PM
Merc Trophy is a 4 blade prop. A Tempest is very similar to a fury. 3 blades.

Whitetrashwonder
04-27-2017, 10:13 PM
Bravo! That's what it was! 26 bravo! I just sat up in bed, looked at my wife and blurted that out. She was not as impressed that I finally remembered as I was.

Got the bblades blaster 14.75 28p today. Saturday morning I'm gonna see what it'll do

Whitetrashwonder
04-30-2017, 01:13 PM
Tried the BBLADES blaster 14.75x28p yesterday. Handling around the ramp was nice. Once in the channel I stabbed it and to my surprise, all it would do is cavitate. So I milked it and milked it until I got up on plane. Once it was up, the numbers seemed pretty good. I was in the 60's before trimming @ about 5200 Rpm's however the steering was awful. It felt like the foot of the engine was in a vice. I played with it a little bit and got it up to 5800 with a little more trim left but the whole experience put me in a crap mood. No matter how I ran wide open, the steering was still way stiff for my liking.

Radiant
04-30-2017, 08:50 PM
Interesting about the steering. Did it remain the same when you tried moving the motor up and down?

Whitetrashwonder
04-30-2017, 08:58 PM
Yeah I tried everything. The only way the steering would get better was to come out of it. It's a monster of a prop. The blades were about a half inch longer than my skeg when it was installed

Whitetrashwonder
04-30-2017, 09:01 PM
Still waiting to run across a promax to try as well!

Radiant
05-01-2017, 12:04 AM
I hear the promax is a good prop to try. That might be your ticket. Looking forward to doing all the prop testing when I get mine on the water.

Radiant
05-31-2017, 02:10 PM
Ran the boat with the old Merc High 5 and it was not great. Still trying to dial in the motor. But I got up to 40 mph and it kept lifting the stern. Felt like it was pushing the bow down no matter what i did with the trim. My boat has the tank up front. So I need a prop that will give me as much bow lift as possible.

What should I start with? 200 merc with a bob's cone with about 12" of setback

XstreamVking
05-31-2017, 04:46 PM
I like the tempest on my flats boat. Plenty of bow lift. Prob a 23 pitch would work on your rig.

Radiant
06-13-2017, 09:13 AM
I have finally dialed in the motor. Needed a new fuel pump. The boat ran 52 mph with the Merc High Five. It had 40 gallons up front and 3 people. Not a fan of the prop, it would slip a lot in the turns. Unfortunately my tach was working intermittently. The prop slipped a lot maybe because of my motor height. Does anyone know if these props like to run low on the pad? I may just go ahead and trade it in for a tempest.

XstreamVking
06-13-2017, 10:38 AM
Hi fives are ski props and work well on tunnel flats rigs, like texas scooters etc...Some one, some where wants that hi five, they are fairly rare to find used. Tempest or a trophy 4 blade is the ticket...

Radiant
06-13-2017, 11:08 AM
It is a pretty early high 5 with no markings and only a number. No vent holes either. I'll see if someone wants it. Ill try a tempest or trophy and report back

dogeatdog
06-14-2017, 08:05 AM
Try a bravo XS. They are an all around good prop for the L&B hulls. I have a 28 XS on mine with a 300xs and it handles well, not as fast (1-2 mph slower) as a promax or a pro et but all around does better.

Radiant
06-14-2017, 08:38 AM
I've ran a bravo before, on a flats boat I had. Holeshot was great. It is definitely a bigger prop and I liked it. I wish I knew what pitch to get. The high 5 is a 23p and the boat was used for charters. Loaded with a trolling motor, batteries, poling platform.

I won't be fishing this boat too much. It is hard to find info on these hulls with a 200, that is almost underpowered in the Lake & Bay world.

I'll get some prop testing in this weekend and report what I find

Radiant
09-22-2017, 10:11 AM
I've been running a 21 Mirage Plus for the Summer, not really chasing speed as I always have people in the boat and the prop works ok for just going to the sandbar. With a 1/4 tank and 2 people I hit 61 mph at 6400 rpm. This prop is a stern lifter from what I've read. Can't get the bow up unless I really trim it and then I'll lose speed.

Yesterday I went out alone with a 22 Chopper expecting it to pull up the bow some compared to the mirage. And it did pick up the bow with less trim but I could only hit 55 at 5900-6000. Had 1 half tank and I was alone. That puts my slip numbers pretty high up there at 16-18%. Possible that at my speeds I don't see the benefits of a chopper?

Not sure what I am doing wrong at this point. I had someone the other day tell my with the gas tank up front and such a light motor (2.4 Black Max 200), I'll never be able to really lift the bow. He suggested another 5" of setback. I'm already at 12" so I'm hesitant to add more at this point. I've also thought about adding a rear tank, but I don't want to cut up the floor just yet. I'd rather maximize what I have right now. Still looking for a tempest to try.

XstreamVking
09-22-2017, 10:53 AM
12'' is plenty of setback. Tempest prop is good, good lift. Lotta guys running l&b boats with a 2.5 200 loved the trophy props too. (me included) Small barrel prop so gives the bow a lot of lift. 4 blades, hooks up fairly good. 23-24 pitch is about right. Try one of those if you can. I may have a 23p tempest in my prop pile. I will check and pm you...

W2F a V-King
09-22-2017, 01:04 PM
Yesterday I went out alone with a 22 Chopper expecting it to pull up the bow some compared to the mirage. And it did pick up the bow with less trim but I could only hit 55 at 5900-6000. Had 1 half tank and I was alone. That puts my slip numbers pretty high up there at 16-18%. Possible that at my speeds I don't see the benefits of a chopper?

Not familiar with a Lake and Bay, save for the fact I've seen them on the water when I lived in SW Florida.

But...I'd be willing to bet the chopper you tried was an old Inline 6 or "Small Ear" chopper. They are great props and do have bow lift....just on a small light boat ( Vector Viper, etc...). Really designed with the smaller blade area for the older Inline 6 motors of the past(less torque). And almost everybody has one or has tried one...they are everywhere.

The small ear choppers don't do as well on V6 motors on heavier, larger boats as do the newer Merc choppers aka "Big Ear" choppers.

Not saying a chopper is for you. Just bringing to lite for you that there are different types of Merc choppers.

I personally have a ProCraft 1750 with a 2.0L Mariner Magnum, and do run an inline 6 worked 22. Great hole shot, and fair top end for an older bass rig. Mid to high 50's @ 6200 ( seen 58 mph once @6300)

My rig is a lot smaller and lighter than yours though.

Radiant
09-25-2017, 05:49 PM
12'' is plenty of setback. Tempest prop is good, good lift. Lotta guys running l&b boats with a 2.5 200 loved the trophy props too. (me included) Small barrel prop so gives the bow a lot of lift. 4 blades, hooks up fairly good. 23-24 pitch is about right. Try one of those if you can. I may have a 23p tempest in my prop pile. I will check and pm you...


Not familiar with a Lake and Bay, save for the fact I've seen them on the water when I lived in SW Florida.

But...I'd be willing to bet the chopper you tried was an old Inline 6 or "Small Ear" chopper. They are great props and do have bow lift....just on a small light boat ( Vector Viper, etc...). Really designed with the smaller blade area for the older Inline 6 motors of the past(less torque). And almost everybody has one or has tried one...they are everywhere.

The small ear choppers don't do as well on V6 motors on heavier, larger boats as do the newer Merc choppers aka "Big Ear" choppers.

Not saying a chopper is for you. Just bringing to lite for you that there are different types of Merc choppers.

I personally have a ProCraft 1750 with a 2.0L Mariner Magnum, and do run an inline 6 worked 22. Great hole shot, and fair top end for an older bass rig. Mid to high 50's @ 6200 ( seen 58 mph once @6300)

My rig is a lot smaller and lighter than yours though.

I measured and it is a big ear chopper.

Unfortunately my prop testing will be put on hold. I think I have a small crack in the gas tank so I have to pull the cap and replace it. I may put in a rear tank while I have the boat down to the hull. 50 gallons in the up front doesn't help me fly the bow.

Never a dull moment with boating. Thanks for all the help thus far

Radiant
08-14-2018, 08:57 AM
I got the boat back together. Still running the same 22 Chopper and the 2.4 200 Black Max. The boat is much much lighter and I went with a twin tank setup. It feels like a different boat. Need more seat time but I quickly hit 68.7 mph. Felt like 70 was there but I didn't want to push it with not a lot of seat time. My tach was intermittent so I never got a good reading but I think I was around 6900 rpm when it would work. This was with the motor jacked way up. The higher I got the motor, the more stable the boat felt. I'll get a prop shaft to pad measurement but I would say near level with the pad.

The Chopper is just an old prop I had laying around, it could use some work. And just by adding one person I'll lose 5 mph which is probably normal, but it definitely does not carry any sort of load well.

I want to hit low to mid 70s just to see what it'll do. Then pick up a good cruising prop that'll carry a load. Any suggestions on getting into the 70s?

XstreamVking
08-14-2018, 05:32 PM
You are running good for that boat motor combo. I'm not sure I would change a thing. 24p trophy was the prop of choice when I ran the little motors on the l and b's. 70 was a good speed at 6000-6200 r's.

Radiant
08-14-2018, 07:14 PM
The prop is in rough shape but no nicks. I may send it off to get some cup added to the blades. Feels like there isn’t much left. But my buddy has a 23p trophy plus I can try. I don’t mind turning a few extra RPMs. But 6900 is pretty high. I hope the added cup can bring it down a bit and maybe get me into the 70s

Whitetrashwonder
06-29-2019, 05:00 PM
TRY A Merc Promax 28 . I think that may help you.

Tried that 28 promax the other day. Was an act of Congress to get on a plane. Every time I would take off it would blow out and fall back. Finally I stayed in it for a good 15 seconds of chaos until it caught. Once on a plane it ran ok. Mid 70's and 6100. I like the fact that those blades look like they could take a beating. Too bad I can't get it to come out of the hole.

Radiant
06-30-2019, 06:19 PM
That is interesting. I have heard of that problem with promax props, not sure what the fix is.

I sold my 200 and picked up a 1992 135 to run for a few weeks as an interim motor. It ran 60 mph with a 25 Tempest and half fuel. I am sure 62 was in there somewhere. I was running and blew the hub on the prop so that ended my testing pretty quick.

I have a 2.5 200 I need to put together, it is sitting in the garage. I am hoping for 75 mph. But I really like the tempest on this hull.

Whitetrashwonder
07-23-2019, 12:01 AM
TRY A Merc Promax 28 . I think that may help you.

Tried one of these recently. It was an act of Congress to get it on a plain. It would bite for a split second, then cavitate like crazy every time no matter the circumstance. Finally got it it and it ran ok. Still at 6k 76+mph. Been eyeballing a trophy plus to try. So far the best all around prop I've ran is the 26p fury 4 with tons of cup. Rich at leading edge has been working on it for me but it seems like no matter what we do, we can't get the rpms to drop below 6100. Well besides let out of it and we all know that's dumb. As far as the chine walk goes, I found that if I jack it up until I start dropping water pressure without overheating, it stays on the pad much easier.

Whitetrashwonder
07-23-2019, 12:05 AM
Forgot I'd already commented about this...

Whitetrashwonder
07-23-2019, 12:17 AM
The problem I've had with every 3 blade is hole shot. It seems like it wants to dig, then right before it levels out it cavitates to where I have to fall back down or let out of it. The situations I find myself in a lot of times are either face the fact that I'll have to idle out to 2.5' of water, risk damaging a prop in shallower water, or run my fury 4 that pops up without hesitation and eats oysters for breakfast, craps out pearls, and is never worse for wear. I'm hard on my stuff.....

Radiant
07-23-2019, 09:58 AM
Can you drop the motor a hole on the jackplate? I find that my tempest will do the same if I am not all the way down and motor tucked in. It doesn't want to grip when I am about to break over and get on plane. It runs nice once I am on plane though.

My problem now is I have a 2.5 200 with drilled exhaust, and the holeshot is very slow, like 5+ seconds to plane. There is basiclly no exhaust gasses going down to the prop. I think I may need to try an over hub prop to get some holeshot.

I would like to try a pro max because of that in-between design that lets some gasses pass over the blades. Or a trophy plus.

Whitetrashwonder
07-23-2019, 10:05 AM
Can you drop the motor a hole on the jackplate? I find that my tempest will do the same if I am not all the way down and motor tucked in. It doesn't want to grip when I am about to break over and get on plane. It runs nice once I am on plane though.

My problem now is I have a 2.5 200 with drilled exhaust, and the holeshot is very slow, like 5+ seconds to plane. There is basiclly no exhaust gasses going down to the prop. I think I may need to try an over hub prop to get some holeshot.

I would like to try a pro max because of that in-between design that lets some gasses pass over the blades. Or a trophy plus.

I probably could but that would be contradictive I think to the main objective for me. Above all else I need to get up and gone in 1.5' of water. You get up fishing a tournament North of Crystal River and you could find yourself idling miles to find enough water to take off. To get up in that depth I have to Jack it to the sky, then drop the plate as I plain out.

Radiant
07-23-2019, 10:11 AM
I was able to get up and plane off with a Big Ear Chopper. I could plane off with the plate all the way up and run it that high if I wanted. That prop held at any height on the jackplate. But it did slip a lot on takeoff cause that was what it was designed to do. Need a low water pickup though.

Whitetrashwonder
07-23-2019, 10:14 AM
I was able to get up and plane off with a Big Ear Chopper. I could plane off with the plate all the way up and run it that high if I wanted. That prop held at any height on the jackplate. But it did slip a lot on takeoff cause that was what it was designed to do. Need a low water pickup though.

Yeah, I ran a BBLADES chopper once, the problem I found with it is that if it so much as feels the warmth of the bottom, it dings up. The fury I have is a friggin champ when it comes to bumping bottom

Radiant
07-23-2019, 11:35 AM
A lot of people will take a Bravo and cut off the flare at the end of the hub, and drill more vent voles. This is s pretty standard setup for a lake and bay that’s looking for an all around prop. In stock form they’re not great, but with the work to them, they run great and carry a load well

Whitetrashwonder
07-23-2019, 11:48 AM
I might try to do that if I can find one to tear apart!

XstreamVking
07-23-2019, 03:42 PM
Only prop I have ever had that would plane off jacked to the sky without spinning out was a predator prop. Blades are fairly robust too. Here's one...https://www.ebay.com/i/392267035306?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=392267035306&targetid=541454245852&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9012254&poi=&campaignid=1881505361&mkgroupid=70176756156&rlsatarget=pla-541454245852&abcId=1139336&merchantid=101742472&gclid=CjwKCAjw4NrpBRBsEiwAUcLcDE-sQBF3Uv0ctxDFoer0YCL-g4PtCqHWlZc-AAykhA4f9Wif3tI8AhoCBXcQAvD_BwE

Radiant
07-24-2019, 08:48 AM
Only prop I have ever had that would plane off jacked to the sky without spinning out was a predator prop. Blades are fairly robust too. Here's one...https://www.ebay.com/i/392267035306?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=392267035306&targetid=541454245852&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9012254&poi=&campaignid=1881505361&mkgroupid=70176756156&rlsatarget=pla-541454245852&abcId=1139336&merchantid=101742472&gclid=CjwKCAjw4NrpBRBsEiwAUcLcDE-sQBF3Uv0ctxDFoer0YCL-g4PtCqHWlZc-AAykhA4f9Wif3tI8AhoCBXcQAvD_BwE


When you ran these hulls with the 2.5s, did you run nose cones?

XstreamVking
07-24-2019, 09:01 AM
I did try a bobs off my V-King but it got me nothing but the ability to raise the motor for shallow water. If your not doing 80 a long pointy gearcase slows you down. I am back to a 200 EFI 2.5 merc on my flats boat now and am running a 24p 4 blade predator. 66 mph at 6000r's. Regular gearcase. About 10% slip. I can raise my paralift and bring the motor above the bottom and come up in 2' of water and not touch the bottom. Also have lenco tabs, and a set of transom wedges. Fairly light boat with a blueprinted bottom.

Radiant
07-24-2019, 09:16 AM
That is good to hear. I am running a standard case on my 2.5 200, but I had a nose cone before on my 2.4 200. Still testing things out. But I went out the other day, first time with the motor and ran 66 with two people at 5700 rpm. 25 tempest. It had more but my passenger was ready for me to slow down. I still had the jackplate all the way down. I have the top 3 holes on the lower plugged so I'll start playing with height. I have a carbed motor so I don't have a limiter to deal with.

The tempest is a solid prop for when I am alone, but like I mentioned before, the holeshot is terrible with the drilled exhaust. I loaded the boat this past weekend and ran 60 miles with 4 people, a cooler full of beer, and 60 gallons of fuel. The boat still hit 59 mph but at 5200 rpm. I am wanting to try a trophy (plus) with the small barrel and see if I can get any ventilation on the holeshot. Or, on my 2.4 I ran a 22 chopper that carried loads pretty well. That motor also had drilled exhaust, so the over hub design of the chopper really let it spin up and get into the powerband.

I definitely want a couple different props to be able to dial in the boat for what I am doing that day

Radiant
08-06-2019, 09:49 PM
Got a chance to get some new numbers.

72 Mph at 6100 RPM with the 25 Tempest. With about 25 Gallons of fuel, and most of it in the front tank. I know 75 is there, so that is my goal for the next time out as I burn more fuel. I am still learning the chine walking. I am still really figuring out how to balance on the pad. But today I was able to run 71-72 for a long time till I ran out of room.

Wondering how a different prop will change things. I do feel I would turn a higher number with a nose cone and a chopper or ET style prop. I run out of water pressure now. I have 3 holes plugged, might plug the 4th and retest

Radiant
12-23-2019, 11:07 AM
Not sure how many people still follow this thread, but I have a 200 Opti I am putting on the boat. I ran a best of 72 mph with no prop testing with my 2.5 200 carb motor and a 25 Tempest.

I got a 26 Bravo I the other day to try. I am hoping for mid to high 70s. I feel like the extra torque of the 3.0 will be nice. The Bravo is stock, no vent holes and with the flare. I might have a shop drill 4 PVS style holes and run it. Maybe cut off the flare after some testing. But I will also try the 25 Tempest but I feel with the low revs of the opti (5750) I'll hit the limiter.

Has anyone tried a Solas Scorpion/Rubex S3? That prop has caught my eye, and a lot of people have had good luck with it.

XstreamVking
12-24-2019, 08:47 AM
27p tempest for the 200 5700 @ 75 with 10% slip. I run a 29p tempest right to the limiter @ 83mph

Griswald
01-17-2020, 12:51 PM
Are we still talking about a Lake & Bay with a 200?

Radiant
01-21-2020, 10:32 AM
Are we still talking about a Lake & Bay with a 200?

Yes, I have a lake and bay with a 200

skeeterboud
02-11-2020, 09:01 PM
my .o2$ 20 boca grande pocket. 300 hpdi series 2 vmax all props tested in the fall.. h20 temp bout' 70f. one battery, 25-30 gall fuel. just me, 220lbs.
26 fury- 80.5 easily hit my rpm limits 6k good hole shot
27 fury- 81.2 easily hit my rpm limits 6k good hole shot
29 tempest 83.7 hit my rpm limits w/little effort delayed hole shot, but no blow out

my props are getting pretty wore out, so I had the 27 worked to 28(have yet to run it). going to prop shop this spring(which is why I'm finally logging on to this site!)
26 is my everyday fishing prop

my brother has a 22 stingray SCB and we ran the 26 signature eagle 4 69mph for 60 miles in a trnmt last month.. that's with exact same engine as mine, 3 people(650lbs), 50 gallons fuel, lots of tackle, cooler full of drinks, 20lbs ice, etc. i think I'm going to try to find a hill eagle 4 on this site to buy/try...