450r/500r

[Rayzor]

Could this be for real??????

http://www.powerboatnation.com/rumors-facts-big-horsepower-2017-miami-boat-show-preview/

[Frank Molé]

if true BIG BUCKS but cool......................

[mjw930]

Based on what I've heard that's probably for real. If the 400R street price is around $27K I can't imagine what they want for the 500R........

[Greg G]

Sounds like they may be chasing Biggie and Tupac right into the land of ultimate bling

[Rayzor]

I've confirmed these motors with two different sources - these motors are for real. I don't know how soon they will be released, but they'll be released in the not-so-distant future.

[MODVP22]

if it's for real, that's impressive. Now we are talking...500hp in 700-800lbs. unit is more like it than the 200-300hp models.

Kinda makes me wonder if it's gonna be built off the same 2.6L I6 supercharged platform....kinda pushing it.

[Capt.Insane-o]

LOL @ everyone who bought 400r's this year. :D

[Rayzor]

I'm pretty certain the 500R will be the same 2.6 Verado platform that weighs right at 700#s (with Mercury Racing installed wingplate). They need to offer a 1.62 gear ratio now, as the speeds some boats will be capable of will need the taller gear.

[Rayzor]

LOL @ everyone who bought 400r's this year. :D

That's why I've waited to order mine until this time of year - I didn't want to be one of those guys! My 30 will be getting a set of 500Rs....

[Capt.Insane-o]

New 30 or yer old one?

[AZMIDLYF]

I would be surprised to see them come out with a completely new platform for these 450-500 motors.

[AZMIDLYF]

ROS version only?

[JPEROG]

Now that the big cats (35-40) are going to able to run 120 mph and do it with basically no maintenance or fuel cost compared to a blown or turbo big block, transmission, and speedmaster, there are going to be big budget guys coming into what was the little guys market. These are guys that have a 100K in propellers, are used to 25K repair and or maint. bills, and have paid 200K for an engine and drive package in the past. So whatever the price tag is, it won't give someone at this level sticker shock and they are going to love the simplicity of performance boating. It doesn't matter how much money you have "breaking sucks" especially when you are at an event that requires travel time to attend and that is what will drive this product. The bright side of this for the small guy is that another great used boat market is headed our way....

Joe

[FMP]

Now I like the R for Racing.

[Capt.Insane-o]

I still have zero interest in them. Might be nice to have a pair on a huge tri toon. :cheers:

[stoker2001]

That's why I've waited to order mine until this time of year - I didn't want to be one of those guys! My 30 will be getting a set of 500Rs....
I seen that posted on Riverdavesplace this morning and was getting ready to text you....

[Rayzor]

Now that the big cats (35-40) are going to able to run 120 mph and do it with basically no maintenance or fuel cost compared to a blown or turbo big block, transmission, and speedmaster, there are going to be big budget guys coming into what was the little guys market. These are guys that have a 100K in propellers, are used to 25K repair and or maint. bills, and have paid 200K for an engine and drive package in the past. So whatever the price tag is, it won't give someone at this level sticker shock and they are going to love the simplicity of performance boating. It doesn't matter how much money you have "breaking sucks" especially when you are at an event that requires travel time to attend and that is what will drive this product. The bright side of this for the small guy is that another great used boat market is headed our way....

Joe

So true Joe, and it will also open up the possibility for a big $$$ guy to have a reliable 140+ mph big cat. Four 500Rs would fit nicely behind the sponsons of a 40 Skater. Even if the motors are $35k apiece, it would still only be $140k total in the drive package, with warranties and little-to-no maintenance. I think we're going to start seeing some big cats with multiples of these 500Rs like we've been seeing on the big CC boats.

[Rayzor]

I seen that posted on Riverdavesplace this morning and was getting ready to text you....

Funny you say that Kevin, I found out from a text from a friend around Noon today. Made some phone calls to confirm that it was true, then posted it here and on OSO.

[Mr. Demeanor]

So true Joe, and it will also open up the possibility for a big $$$ guy to have a reliable 140+ mph big cat. Four 500Rs would fit nicely behind the sponsons of a 40 Skater. Even if the motors are $35k apiece, it would still only be $140k total in the drive package, with warranties and little-to-no maintenance. I think we're going to start seeing some big cats with multiples of these 500Rs like we've been seeing on the big CC boats.
And a trailer with a couple plug and play spares if there is a problem.

[JCSmile]

I just can't imagine getting 500 propshaft horsepower out of a 2.6 liter engine. Sounds like a LOT of boost.

[JCSmile]

If they can, I wouldn't mind seeing a 1.3 liter 250hp option :D

[mr fun]

love it, but I think the Achilles heel will be the lower units. they need to incorporate the bravo lower, in my humble opinion. fun out

[JPEROG]

I just can't imagine getting 500 propshaft horsepower out of a 2.6 liter engine. Sounds like a LOT of boost.

The F1 cars were making over 1200 hp 20 years ago with 1.5 L. displacements but they did twist them just a little higher (like three times higher)... This whole discussion took place over a year ago when Brent bought his 400 and it was said then that they would have to either make more boost or more displacement for a single engine application to pull that case up in an open tunnel (looks like the time is here) and if Merc is going to market it with a warranty then you know there is another 100 or so to be extracted by the aftermarket world. Now, on to the case issues and other weak links to be discovered. This weight is going to require a 30 foot and up length for twins but there will be some silent hot rods out there and think about all of the 400 guys that will be ready to sell for an upgrade.

Joe

[mjw930]

love it, but I think the Achilles heel will be the lower units. they need to incorporate the bravo lower, in my humble opinion. fun out
Maybe, maybe not. With the e-throttle and the ecm tuning the 400R already does a lot of torque management which can greatly increase the life expectancy of the gear case. I've heard from a couple people that things like prop selection and tuning is a completely different animal on these motors because the ECM kicks in and does a lot to manage the power delivery. Only time will tell.

[mr fun]

betcha a nickel. shop around the corner has many yellowfins, donzies, contenders, sitting outside the fence ninus the lowers. just sayin.

[Rayzor]

The HP per liter is not far fetched in today's hi-tech world. Ford's new 3.5L Ecoboost motor put's out 630HP SAE, which is close to the same HP per liter as a 2.6L motor putting out 500HP. If you look at Mercury Racing's new SB4 7.0, that motor is making over 100HP per liter without boost! 775HP at 7,500rpm out of 7.0 liters equates to approximately 1550HP when supercharged at just one atmosphere (14.7#s of boost), which equals 221HP per liter - far greater than the 192HP per liter the supercharged 2.6 would be producing at 500HP. The new motors they are producing are amazing - race motor performance, on pump gas with warranties!

[Rayzor]

betcha a nickel. shop around the corner has many yellowfins, donzies, contenders, sitting outside the fence ninus the lowers. just sayin.

I doubt it. Steve put over 170 hours in the first season on his 318 Skater that got the first pair of 400Rs on it - completely failure free! Show me a 2.5/3.0/3.2 gearcase that has ever gone that long without a failure on a big, heavy 100+ mph cat. I've never had the luck of getting past 50 hours on a 2.5/3.0/3.2 gearcase on any of my smaller/lighter 28 Skaters.

[FMP]

The best is yet to come

[Chaz]

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over a decal ... :rolleyes:

[xb03fs]

If they can, I wouldn't mind seeing a 1.3 liter 250hp option :D
True why hasn't the little verado been pushed

[MODVP22]

I just can't imagine getting 500 propshaft horsepower out of a 2.6 liter engine. Sounds like a LOT of boost.


exactly, rely on that blower more and more makes me a bit nervous. Sounds like we are going to find out though.

[2jz]

True why hasn't the little verado been pushed

The timing just isn't right for mercury to do it and it wouldn't be profitable. Mercury still as optimax pro xs 250 in production with great sales,cheaper to repower with and you still have i6 verado 250 that will hurt sales if they come out with i4 250hp verado that's lighter.

[Zero Patience]

Photoshop. I Don't believe you will see them

[Rayzor]

Photoshop. I Don't believe you will see them

Over on OSO, Matt Trulio confirmed with Rick Mackie that these will not be unveiled at the Miami show as 2017 models - which is not a surprise. I never figured these would be available as '17s. All I know is that unless my 30 is ready for motors this Spring, I'll be waiting for the 2018s. :D

[David - WI]

Maybe, maybe not. With the e-throttle and the ecm tuning the 400R already does a lot of torque management which can greatly increase the life expectancy of the gear case. I've heard from a couple people that things like prop selection and tuning is a completely different animal on these motors because the ECM kicks in and does a lot to manage the power delivery. Only time will tell.

If that's true, then they are probably already 450hp - 500hp motors and the only difference between a 400R and a 500R will be a couple of 0010101100's in the code that controls them. That will really make the guys that bought a new 400 happy!

[Spectre Powerboats]

I just talked to the highest at Mercury who I have known for a long time and he would never lie to me. This is all bull**** and made up. There is no 450 or 500 in the works right now and they are pissed at Speed on the Water.

[Risco]

400r now on e85 would see a good boost in power

[1BadAction]

I just talked to the highest at Mercury who I have known for a long time and he would never lie to me. This is all bull**** and made up. There is no 450 or 500 in the works right now and they are pissed at Speed on the Water.

but it sure grabbed a ton of ad revenue for PBN

I refuse to visit there and many other sites because of that. "Click here to see our photo gallery of boat fails" - GTFOH, spammers.

They also employ bots on FB to post on grassroots boating pages to drive up traffic.

[Double Rigged]

Speed on the Water never reported the motors. It was put up on Powerboat Nation. The article never quoted actually quoted Mercury. Only showing a picture which everyone took for granted.
Speed on the Water did the right thing and got the correct story from Mercury.
Not sure why they would be pissed at them as they had nothing to do with. Matt is a stand up guy and has a good relationship with those guys.

Dale is right though according to people I know there are things in the works but it will not be hopped up 400r. Totally new platform to compete with 7 Marine and the new Yamaha coming out. I would guess you will see something next year Miami and shipping in summer of 2018. I probably will weigh more also.

[Rayzor]

Everybody needs to start reading everything more closely. As Ron stated, nobody (not PBN, SOTW or I) said when these new motors are coming out, but that these higher HP Verados are just over the horizon. I never recommended anyone wait for them that has a boat ready for motors either. But, in my case, where my boat has just started it's conversion at Skater, I feel it's smart to wait for these new motors.

[AZMIDLYF]

400r now on e85 would see a good boost in power

Potential HP upgrades for these hasn't even had the surface scratched yet.

[Capt.Insane-o]

Damn, there goes my drinking platform build.

[Chaz]

I'm so corn-fruzed ...

Merc is building 400 two strokes

I hate Verado's

I'm converting my boat to Verado's

You guys need to slow down

I'm buying the first 500's

I worked rescue , I've seen to many dead boat racers

Not too bad , there only gonna be $35,000 to $50,000 each

I might have started some 500 Verado threads and will be waiting like a kid at Christmas , but I never said they were going to make them

Chaz = thinkin , That legal weed out west must be some trippy $hiz ... http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Fantasy/fantasy-02.gif

[FUJIMO]

http://brightcove01.brightcove.com/24/4221396001/201701/573/4221396001_5278381352001_5278375061001-vs.jpg?pubId=4221396001

[Rayzor]

I'm so corn-fruzed ...

Merc is building 400 two strokes

I hate Verado's

I'm converting my boat to Verado's

You guys need to slow down

I'm buying the first 500's

I worked rescue , I've seen to many dead boat racers

Not too bad , there only gonna be $35,000 to $50,000 each

I might have started some 500 Verado threads and will be waiting like a kid at Christmas , but I never said they were going to make them

Chaz = thinkin , That legal weed out west must be some trippy $hiz ... http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Fantasy/fantasy-02.gif

You must be a democrat Chaz, because all you do is chase me around making up false quotes of things I've said and done - just like all the liberal pos democrats do with Trump. You're pretty pathetic.........

[2.5-21]

https://static.caintv.com/caintv_665199690.jpg

[Chaz]

You must be a democrat Chaz, because all you do is chase me around making up false quotes of things I've said and done -

Chase you ... no , you come here and puke enough Mr. Millionaire garbage that no one needs to go anywhere else . :nonod:
I do have to thank you for the good laugh you have provided with episodes of manic behavior over more than one rumor over the years . Of course I never mentioned your name in the above post ... guess my false quotes must have been pretty accurate for you to respond ... ;)
Pathetic ... yes , when someone is so self centered that they think they are getting a new toy that they go and start threads on every performance boating site on the internet , not giving a thought on how it might affect others ... ( from SOTW )


The incorrect information sparked concern among boat builders that potential buyers might hold off purchases in anticipation of a new outboard release in Miami.

"Rumors like this one are dangerous to this industry," said Terry Sobo, the director of sales and marketing for Nor-Tech (http://www.nor-techboats.com/) Hi-Performance Boats in Fort Myers, Fla. "They confuse buyers and can convince them to delay purchasing and wait for 'the next great thing.'"
“I’ve had people asking me about (more powerful Verado outboards),” said another boat builder who requested anonymity. “A few weeks ago, I actually called Mercury Racing and asked them if I should wait until after Miami to order outboards for boats we're building and they told me to go ahead and order now.”

Now , instead of calling me names , or calling Peter , or any of your other security clearence industry connections . Be a man and call Mr. Mackie and Mr. Sobo and tell them your sorry for getting carried away and any damage that your actions might have caused .
Like myself , I'm sure they are old enough to have seen more that one spoiled adolescent child in their day ... :thumbsup:

PS I'm proud to say my state did not give 55 electoral votes to H.C. like yours did .. :p

[Mr. Demeanor]

Now they are saying its fake (sorry if this was already posted)
https://www.speedonthewater.com/in-the-news/4207-more-powerful-verado-outboard-a-no-for-2017

[David - WI]

Oh good, the old S&F is back. :nonod:

[Flightplan]

Two months before the release of the 400R many knowledgable people were convinced that a 400hp OB would never happen at Merc.

If I remember correctly, Mother Merc and the boat builders were saying "do not delay purchasing", and "go ahead and order now" while the 400 was being mass produced in secret.

Surely they wouldn't do that again,......would they?

yawn

[Capt.Insane-o]

Well that escalated quickly....>.<

[powerabout]

Better off to make an ls3 stand on its crank on a mid with gears and run a mcm ssm under it
Its wont be heavy or huge compared to todays outboards

[Michael J Giesler]

Wait till you see the new direct injected 2 stroke drag motor 400 horsepower and comes with a 5 year warranty lol

[H2OPERF]

A lot more boost requires the octane to match,when the computer makes up for the knock there goes your HP.

[eli]

dont know what the big deal is ,500 hp from 2.6 liter
4 choke snowmobiles yamaha and doo get 4/500 hp from 3 cylinders
even the 2 stroke 2 cylinder doo 160/ 170+ hp
so the 500 R a cam change, port work a re map and wamo !!

[powerabout]

Drive a sled up hill at wot for a few hours and see how long it lasts

[AZMIDLYF]

^^^So true about the environment of a marine engine.

[Krazymaan]

I still have zero interest in them. Might be nice to have a pair on a huge tri toon. :cheers:

There's a fellow and his son that cruise up and down the Minnesota river here in bloomington with a decent looking homemade 30' plus tri toon with a pair of 300x's on it with jack plates. It says on the side of it. "Go Big or Go Home". Ya can't help to smile when passing him up.

[Capt.Insane-o]

When them guys in Wisconsin can come up with a 350lb/350 hp outboard again i'll be excited. Until then http://b3.ifrm.com/30177/83/0/e5142635//e5142635.gif

[JPEROG]

When them guys in Wisconsin can come up with a 350lb/350 hp outboard again i'll be excited. Until then http://b3.ifrm.com/30177/83/0/e5142635//e5142635.gif

They had them and they sat on the shelf for years. Chaz and I just had this discussion last night. Up until about two years ago you could have bought a 10 year old brand new 300X and the same with the 280s. If there is enough market demand then they will deliver the product but as we all get older and the new generation contains a lot fewer gear heads then in the past, I doubt that it will happen anytime soon. Even if they were available, I would continue to buy a 300X for less then half the money...

Joe

[powerabout]

300x cant meet emission regs
2 stroke got to be Direct injection to have a chance.
Wait till epa jump on CO2 emissions, 4 stroke will be in trouble

[davemvegas]

500HP single outboard at 700lbs. that may give me incentive and motivation to go boating again. my 22ft eliminator with a single 300xs motor did everything right but not go fast. best speed 78mph. last two years with twin 300xs it does everything wrong but has run 109 mph. if it can run 100 or very close by going to single 500hp motor. i think i would spend(i mean owe) 35k and do it. i think the laytham steering,jackplate and motor coming off. it will reduce weight 700lbs. minus 700lbs and minus 100hp? any real way to know the real speed?

[powerabout]

How about a Monty V8?

[davemvegas]

[QUOTE=powerabout;2923377]How about a Monty V8?

i dont own a gas station.

[powerabout]

[QUOTE=powerabout;2923377]How about a Monty V8?

i dont own a gas station.
fuel is the cheapest part of the ownership game

[AZMIDLYF]

300x cant meet emission regs
2 stroke got to be Direct injection to have a chance.
Wait till epa jump on CO2 emissions, 4 stroke will be in trouble

Not if Scott Pruitt gets confirmed. :cool:

[davemvegas]

[QUOTE=powerabout;2923417][QUOTE=davemvegas;2923382]
fuel is the cheapest part of the ownership game

i will have to disagree on that statement. my boat cost nothing to sit at home. and days that i use it. i normally run the whole day on 120.00 in gas. last 225 evinrude carb motor i owned on a stratus. could burn 200+ and it was single motor on a light 18 foot boat.i would guess a carbed v8 would burn 3 times as a single v6 fuel injected motor. my burger king paychecks can let me spend 120 a few times a month. 350 iwould be a once a month boater.

[Krazymaan]

Although comparing old technology with today's technology isn't fair. My SeaDoos have 951cc direct injection and is 130hp for only two cylinders. Which means a 2.5 or 3.0 should be pumping out 390hp with today's technology. So I can see how they get 4 and 5 hundred hp

[AZMIDLYF]

It's like my wife keeps telling me: "Size matters..but what you do with it matters more" ;)

[MODVP22]

It's like my wife keeps telling me: "Size matters..but what you do with it matters more" ;)

Sounds like you got other problems. Might just want to stick to the boats;)

[AZMIDLYF]

How do you think I'm compensating?? :leaving:

[powerabout]

How do you think I'm compensating?? :leaving:

Twin counter rotating johnsons?

[WillySteve]

Twin counter rotating johnsons?


For him or the wife????

[Brad Zastrow]

These engines have been debunked as a rumor. This platform in my opinion is maxed out at 400 hp on pump gas and still be reliable. Do not compare two stroke hp per liter to four stroke. The 400R is a 2.6 liter four stroke that is supercharged running 20 pounds of boost that is more than I would guess is possible on pump gas. It is also spinning 7000 rpm. Merc may come out with a bigger outboard but I am certain it will not be this platform. Besides they have no competition (other than the 557) at this power range and they are selling the 400's as fast they can make them.

[Rayzor]

All I have to say is that I hope all of you remember this thread a year from now..........

[mragu]

The 400s have come way down in price. I have an ad for them listed at 23900. To me that means another bigger size motor is coming shortly.

[Chaz]

All I have to say is that I hope all of you remember this thread a year from now..........

Go head , take another one while your at it ........... two years , just to show we're good sports about it .... :D

[whipper]

300x cant meet emission regs
2 stroke got to be Direct injection to have a chance.
Wait till epa jump on CO2 emissions, 4 stroke will be in trouble


Not with Trump admin. 2 strokes all the way burn that oil!!:cheers:

[Markus]

Now that the big cats (35-40) are going to able to run 120 mph and do it with basically no maintenance or fuel cost compared to a blown or turbo big block, transmission, and speedmaster, there are going to be big budget guys coming into what was the little guys market. These are guys that have a 100K in propellers, are used to 25K repair and or maint. bills, and have paid 200K for an engine and drive package in the past. So whatever the price tag is, it won't give someone at this level sticker shock and they are going to love the simplicity of performance boating. It doesn't matter how much money you have "breaking sucks" especially when you are at an event that requires travel time to attend and that is what will drive this product. The bright side of this for the small guy is that another great used boat market is headed our way....

Joe

Gentlemen,

Firstly, Project X was initiated by George Buckley when he was running Mercury Marine in the late nineties. That is nearly 20 years ago. Comparing Verado to modern engine platforms, be it cars or jet skis, is not a relevant comparison. 400 continuous hp is already a lot from that platform. A new Mercury 4-stroke platform is due, and we can all fantasize about what that will bring.

Second, even where some of you guys live, there are not enough people with $100k in propellers to make for a meaningful trickle-down effect compared to the days of affordable 2.5 260s going on bass boats. :nonod:

[Markus]

Pathetic ... yes , when someone is so self centered that they think they are getting a new toy that they go and start threads on every performance boating site on the internet


Give the man a break. If you live in California (or in Europe for that sake) it is not like you can share your excitement about your new boat (or your Republican sympathies) with your neighbors.

Forums like this are the only outlet for the closeted.

[Chaz]

Marcus , don't you have some toluene you need to go mix ... ;) :D

[Rayzor]

The 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio has a 2.9L twin-turbo V6 putting out 505HP at 7,000rpm. This is a full production, full warranty car. Just sayin'............ ;)

[Capt.Insane-o]

I'm not seeing that motor pushing a 30+ foot center console across the gulf at wot for hours on end with a warranty.

[Michael J Giesler]

I'm not seeing that motor pushing a 30+ foot center console across the gulf at wot for hours on end with a warranty.

The real sad part is they will warranty that big 4 stroke before a 2.5 200 ros that used to have a warranty pathetic

[Rayzor]

They're currently offering a 3 year warranty on the 2017 400Rs - I doubt we will see that with the 450/500Rs. My guess is that Mercury will continue the 3 year warranty on the 400Rs, but probably reduce the warranty period on the 450/500Rs. Possibly 2 year on the 450 and 1 year on the 500? Or no warranty as they've done with the 400ROS? Who knows what we will see from Mercury in the near future, but I am still willing to bet that we see a 450/500 Verado within a year or so...........

And I agree Michael, not offering a warranty on the 2.5/200ROS is pathetic. As you probably know, I bought a set of those back in 2012, they're a sweetheart of a motor. But the boat manufacturers have no interest in building boats to use those motors since they have no warranty. Believe it or not, Pete was thinking about tooling a new 25' that would work real well with those motors, until I told him they had no warranty. He scrapped the idea immediately. It sucks that Mercury has abandoned the small performance boat market - especially since that's what got them to where they are today!

[Capt.Insane-o]

The real sad part is they will warranty that big 4 stroke before a 2.5 200 ros that used to have a warranty pathetic

Mike our days are done...poof no more. I can't even find a #4 at any cost. Looking foreward to having a beer or several with you in the near future.

[Greg G]

The real sad part is they will warranty that big 4 stroke before a 2.5 200 ros that used to have a warranty pathetic

Pathetic is the way I see it as well. It would be pennies to a large corporation to give a warranty on the 2.5!

[Chaz]

I'm not seeing that motor pushing a 30+ foot center console across the gulf at wot for hours on end with a warranty.

Capt.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good fantasy .... There's no place like 450/500 , no place like 450/500 ..... ;)

http://prettycleverfilms.com/files/2013/05/Wizard-of-Oz-Caps-the-wizard-of-oz-2028967-720-536.jpg (http://prettycleverfilms.com/galleries/10-things-about-the-wizard-of-oz/)

[ratman67]

The HP per liter is not far fetched in today's hi-tech world. Ford's new 3.5L Ecoboost motor put's out 630HP SAE, which is close to the same HP per liter as a 2.6L motor putting out 500HP. If you look at Mercury Racing's new SB4 7.0, that motor is making over 100HP per liter without boost! 775HP at 7,500rpm out of 7.0 liters equates to approximately 1550HP when supercharged at just one atmosphere (14.7#s of boost), which equals 221HP per liter - far greater than the 192HP per liter the supercharged 2.6 would be producing at 500HP. The new motors they are producing are amazing - race motor performance, on pump gas with warranties!

Hell the 9liter bbc in my 67 pro touring camaro makes 804 ponies on pump gas. Only thing hi tech was the cnc porting on the heads. Its a dinasaur but gets it done

[ratman67]

I just can't imagine getting 500 propshaft horsepower out of a 2.6 liter engine. Sounds like a LOT of boost.

Merc will make the additional hp by making the engine flow better and better charge cooling. Running high boost creates a bunch of other problems

[Rayzor]

Hell the 9liter bbc in my 67 pro touring camaro makes 804 ponies on pump gas. Only thing hi tech was the cnc porting on the heads. Its a dinasaur but gets it done

Post up pics and some details! That's a dream car for me! Have you thought about competing in the Optima Ultimate Street Car Challenge?

[Capt.Insane-o]

So umm... Has anyone bolted these to anything and used them in anger? Cuz all I've seen is a bunch of fluffy top end boats.

367440

367441

[Trimmed Out15]

Xcat

[Capt.Insane-o]

X cat motors.aren't general population motors.

[David - WI]

The new guy at the EPA is not a fan of the agency; it's possible we could see some more realistic regulations or relaxation of the current regulations that would make the future of two-strokes look brighter which would hopefully spur some new investment in them.

[Capt.Insane-o]

Pretty sure mercury has no profit margin interest in two strokes ;)

[powerabout]

[QUOTE=powerabout;2923417][QUOTE=davemvegas;2923382]
fuel is the cheapest part of the ownership game

i will have to disagree on that statement. my boat cost nothing to sit at home. and days that i use it. i normally run the whole day on 120.00 in gas. last 225 evinrude carb motor i owned on a stratus. could burn 200+ and it was single motor on a light 18 foot boat.i would guess a carbed v8 would burn 3 times as a single v6 fuel injected motor. my burger king paychecks can let me spend 120 a few times a month. 350 iwould be a once a month boater.


Pretty sure mercury has no profit margin interest in two strokes ;)

I wonder if the 2 stroke cheaper to make?
Less spare parts in inventory thats for sure

[David - WI]

Pretty sure mercury has no profit margin interest in two strokes ;)

I think most of the big corporations realised that at the rate we were going the regulations were going to outpace the technology and two-stroke wouldn't be legal to sell... so they quit investing in them. If the product can't survive it's own normal life cycle they would have to charge way too much to compete with the other technology(s).

[Rayzor]

600HP (supposedly) @ $55,000.00 with ZERO warranty. Yes, I'd say you are correct......

[Scream And Fly]

No Mercury 450 and 500, but I can say that Caldwell Racing's engines are incredible. They had several engines and parts on display and I know there were many doubters but CRT is really doing everything they said they would - and more is coming. I'm pretty excited about this, because it's bound to trickle down to more mainstream performance boating.

Greg

[NICE PAIR]

No Mercury 450 and 500, but I can say that Caldwell Racing's engines are incredible. They had several engines and parts on display and I know there were many doubters but CRT is really doing everything they said they would - and more is coming. I'm pretty excited about this, because it's bound to trickle down to more mainstream performance boating.

Greg


http://www.screamandfly.com/dbtech/thanks/images/likes.png Toffen (http://www.screamandfly.com/member.php?u=81), davidmercury (http://www.screamandfly.com/member.php?u=35234) liked this post

Let's do the math David ... 4 x 400 = 1600 hp or 4 x 600 = 2400 ... 2 stroke - 4 stroke - 2 stroke - 4 stroke ... Decisions/ Decisions ? :thumbsup:

[Double Rigged]

And let's not forget 4x400 or 4x whatever = BIG $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[racer]

How is CRT getting around emissions? Selling as a race only engine? Are they available and have they actually been on a good dyno?

[Capt.Insane-o]

How is CRT getting around emissions? Selling as a race only engine? Are they available and have they actually been on a good dyno?

The same way you can order a filthy motor from gm ford or chizzler hi perf. Bless their hearts.

[powerabout]

The same way you can order a filthy motor from gm ford or chizzler hi perf. Bless their hearts.
a powerhead is not an outboard motor
maybe they could sell a dfi kit and get epa credits?

[Capt.Insane-o]

a powerhead is not an outboard motor
maybe they could sell a dfi kit and get epa credits?

**** the epa.

[MODVP22]

The same way you can order a filthy motor from gm ford or chizzler hi perf. Bless their hearts.

Cuz Pres. Trump said so :D............sorry, I had to-couldn't help myself

[racer]

One reason the auto industry can sell seperate dirty engines is that they have emissions credits. Mercury uses this to sell 2 star engines in Ca. I agree when it's not a complete engine rules do change to some extent. Adding a mid section may or may not change things. Just curious what CRT may or may not have done. I would think if sold in parts it's a non issue. They look great would love to see some dyno numbers, if I had not retired would have offered use of mine.

[Davidlake]

I think that non-compliant engines or vehicles for that matter can be sold is that they are listed as "closed circuit" use only and not intended for street or recreational use. Just look at a 2 stroke dirt bike with stickers all over the fenders! CRT motors should meet that requirement. hopefully with Scott Pruitt as head of the EPA cap and trade bull **** will stop.

[Chaz]

600HP (supposedly) @ $55,000.00

Huhhmmm , More fake news from the left ... coast ... :nonod:

[powerabout]

I think that non-compliant engines or vehicles for that matter can be sold is that they are listed as "closed circuit" use only and not intended for street or recreational use. Just look at a 2 stroke dirt bike with stickers all over the fenders! CRT motors should meet that requirement. hopefully with Scott Pruitt as head of the EPA cap and trade bull **** will stop.
What the epa is looking for is cant be used on normal road or as recreational engine.

[Chaz]

"""""""""""""""" I just got off the plane from Mercury racing """"""""""""""""""""""""""

I sold them my Trump EPA approved 4.0L V-4 . They said if they didn't have to wty them for 10 years they would sell them for $4995.00 But since they have to cover those that could break an anvil with a rubber mallet the price will be $37,500.00
Coming to a dealer near you in 2019 ... :smiletest:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b5/99/cf/b599cf6441f0bbcc07e08450500e8723.jpg

[Davidlake]

Honda CR 500 cylinders? What do you do with this???

[AZMIDLYF]

Chaz, aside from the price, girth of these new 4 strokes, do you see an upside to them?

[FMP]

Duhwhaaaaat

[Chaz]

Chaz, aside from the price, girth of these new 4 strokes, do you see an upside to them?

But , but , but , I was just starting to have some fun .. :D

I was a big fan of Cotton Perry's H/MP Nova back in the early 80's . Maybe it was the sound it made compared to the high winding small inch V-8's it raced against . Or maybe it was because he was the underdog , but I remember that being the fastest straight 6 I had ever seen . Especially since the aftermarket ( other than Clifford Research ) never really made speed parts for them.

Six in a row like the Verado use's 7 main bearings . The cranks are balanced unto themselves , meaning they have perfect primary balance and no bobweight is needed .
The head is typical modern four valve , excellent port layout , pentroof (Keith Duckworth) chamber and shim + bucket (Ferrari) valve train .
I would rather see the cam chain in the middle rather than drive the cam's from one end . But it wouldn't be a problem until someone puts a big stick with a real heavy valve spring in there and spun it to the moon.
Plenty of meat around the liners for big sleeves and enough room in the crankcase for at least another .125 to .187 stroke .
I didn't like that the bottom of the sump (dry oil pan ) oil pump and it's drive chain as well as the remote oil tank and exhaust were all part of the engine adapter plate .
Before Rick George passed away , he had us working on a 15" mid that was to use a 300xs clamp bracket , which was going to take making a billet adapter plate with built in upper mount and a glass or carbon lower cowl. The way the Verado is made is that the lower cowling is part of the mount / trim system .
Getting rid of that stock set-up was between 100 - 150 pounds .
The exhaust system is very small and is kinked up pretty bad . I'm really surprised that they can blow 400 hp thru there . We had a pretty nice stainless boom tube partially done before the plug got pulled .
Honestly , I have no doubt that with just the intake and exhaust tract freed up , and maybe a piggy-back box to feed the ECM some false triggers that it could easily make another 75 -100 horses . Another 5 -10 lbs of boost and something like E-85 I'm sure you could stack another 100 on top of that .

I got that MIDLife thing goin on too ... so can I go back to playing now ... ? :D

[Chaz]

Honda CR 500 cylinders? What do you do with this???

David , Yes it's CR top end stuff . A guy is building twins and 4 cylinder models for motorcycle use ... It's actually becoming pretty popular using individual removable cylinders ... :thumbsup:

Here's another version . I'm not really fond of separate cranks , but the 500cc F-1 bikes were like that for awhile .

http://thekneeslider.com/images/2012/11/rgv1000-bike-530x397.jpg (http://thekneeslider.com/images/2012/11/rgv1000-bike.jpg)

Snow mobile ..

http://www.aaenperformance.com/images/snow/V4_engine.jpg

And the MAD EFI that would have been the king of outboards ....

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc29/TubeCarz/3_020LITER20400HP_zps1qctvktn.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/TubeCarz/media/3_020LITER20400HP_zps1qctvktn.jpg.html)

[AZMIDLYF]

As usual Chaz, you are a wealth of knowledge. Sounds like a lot of upside but quite a bit of repackaging involved, especially for the smaller boating segment. :thumbsup:

[H2OPERF]

Wayne was on track with that build, I talked to him several times,never met him but wish i had. , well i wanted BRP to be on top so i was there last week ans sold them mine LOL, cobbled tz 750's.

[conmax]

Considering how long it took Mercury to go from 350 to 400, it could be years before we see more. I thought the 450-500 was bogus from the onset. It came out just a couple of weeks after I asked a guy from Mercury racing about the CNC props and what the changes for 2017 were. He said only the 3 yr warranty. Have no idea who Dale's inside sources were, but their credibility is suspect.

I have no idea what is will take for Merc to go from 400 to 500, although it is likely to be a lot more than a boost increase. They did a lot of work on the intake track and intercooler to get to 400, and its likely it will take more than that to get to 500. My uniformed guess is that it would require a larger displacement SC, larger intake valves, cam and other typical hot rodder tricks to get to that level. The challenge is not the power level, but how to offer a 3 year warranty that some customers will choose to run at 7000 rpm+ for long periods.

[Chaz]

Wayne was on track with that build, I talked to him several times,never met him but wish i had. , well i wanted BRP to be on top so i was there last week ans sold them mine LOL, cobbled tz 750's.

I thought you wuz a guillotine slide guy ... LOL imagine getting 8 cable pull Mikuni's to idle ... :eek:
I remember going to Daytona as a kid and watching everybody climbing the wall coming out of the infield . Johnny Cecotto could go around two or three of em on the outside with the front wheel dangling and the back one putting off just a wisp of smoke . Amazing motor ... and rider . :thumbsup:

Nothin beats the Indy Mile when K.R. clipped the Michigan mafia on the last straight ... LOL
Listen to it at 2:30 on the checkered flag lap ... Burrrripppppp :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpsZ_AUFbX4

[Chaz]

Considering how long it took Mercury to go from 350 to 400, it could be years before we see more. I thought the 450-500 was bogus from the onset. It came out just a couple of weeks after I asked a guy from Mercury racing about the CNC props and what the changes for 2017 were. He said only the 3 yr warranty. Have no idea who Dale's inside sources were, but their credibility is suspect.

I have no idea what is will take for Merc to go from 400 to 500, although it is likely to be a lot more than a boost increase. They did a lot of work on the intake track and intercooler to get to 400, and its likely it will take more than that to get to 500. My uniformed guess is that it would require a larger displacement SC, larger intake valves, cam and other typical hot rodder tricks to get to that level. The challenge is not the power level, but how to offer a 3 year warranty that some customers will choose to run at 7000 rpm+ for long periods.

Wishful thinking and an internet connection built this years 450 - 500's .. ;)
Much of the same fantasy is responsible for thinking that mother Mercury is going to step on the Verado package , turn it loose on the public and stand behind for three years .
As it is they have sold plenty of 150 -200's that guys have run up on the beach got knocked out with the motor at full song till it stuck . When they sobered up Monday , the story was , you sold me a lemon ... Pfffttttttt
Why do you think you have to pay twice as much for a new motor as it's worth .. you can bet a good part of it is paying the tard tax .
They offer a 15" 400 now , No wty . The racers snap em up and buy extra's . They know if it breaks , chances are pretty good that they did it . If a run of them between certain serial numbers were to say have the cam gear bolts fall out in the first 10 minutes , then I would hope they would fix it .
You can bet that Mercury's fun needle is pegged when it comes to guys who act like they are sponsored by Mercury thru they wty department .
Let me ask you capable check writers this . If Merc offered a bolt on kit that bumped a Verado to 500 HP , but cancelled the wty .... would you do it .. ?
That's why you won't see one next year either .
But looking into my crystal ball , I see that they got big atta-boys for their 4 valve head for the LS .. or whatever their version of the small Chevy is ... and will put that package out there to compete with 7 marine on the whale size motor ...
Chaz = wantin to see a pair of them pork-chop's on the back of a 30' cat ... :p

[Double Rigged]

I agree Chaz, the big motor from Mercury will come to compete with 7 marine. Down here in S. FL you are seeing more and more of them. The big CC's need cubic inch. In talking to some of the guys i know they are happy with the sales or the 400r's and the builders of the 30' Cats think they are fast enough with that amount of weight hanging on the back. Anymore would be really looking for trouble. I am patiently waiting to see if the likes of Caldwell can develop a tamer version of the 625 3.5L that can be used around the docks and make 500hp. If that becomes a reality it would smoke the 400 literally!

[powerabout]

got to stand a chev on on its crank to get ahead

[noli]

.


did anyone see a 450/500 HP outboard under the tent?



391703



391704

[JPEROG]

I agree Chaz, the big motor from Mercury will come to compete with 7 marine. Down here in S. FL you are seeing more and more of them. The big CC's need cubic inch. In talking to some of the guys i know they are happy with the sales or the 400r's and the builders of the 30' Cats think they are fast enough with that amount of weight hanging on the back. Anymore would be really looking for trouble. I am patiently waiting to see if the likes of Caldwell can develop a tamer version of the 625 3.5L that can be used around the docks and make 500hp. If that becomes a reality it would smoke the 400 literally!

I have heard rumors that Ron's projection is absolutely correct. Read his first sentence and wait until the Miami show-

Joe

[Chaz]

.


did anyone see a 450/500 HP outboard under the tent?


Nope ... But most of us have seen the photoshopped 450 / 500 picture that circulated around last year ... :D

Chaz = wunderin how many times a day the raze still calls Merc Racing ... pleading his case .. :cool:

[noli]

.



Noli = hopin' that the big motors arrive soon




.

[powerabout]

will it come with uprated gearbox?

[RSWORDS]

I have a feeling we will see all the verados other then the 350/400 go away. I think the will be replaced by a new design (the verado is 11 years old now)

And I have a feeling it will be available with standard throttle and shift and DTS.

[AZMIDLYF]

Simon Motorsport said they can:

We can tune the 400 to 450 without anything else done to the motor.

[Capt.Insane-o]

I can't wait until the converters get jammed in there. :p

[AZMIDLYF]

What about a CVT?

[Capt.Insane-o]

the cadiladic converter

[powerabout]

how much life do those dirty 4strokes have as an outboard anyway?
I wonder the what the price difference will end up being from 2s non catcon versus 4s with catcon?
then wait till the EPA correctly apply the CO2 rules...
or Merc sell too many big engines ( 2 star) and run out of epa credits from the small engines ( 3 star) that collect them?
They cant get a blower engine to 3 star can they?

[AZMIDLYF]

391714

[powerabout]

What about a CVT?
would be nice but I think getting away from dog clutch has to be the way forward for big engines.
Twin pinion is what you need underwater.
shift in the mid which would then give you the opportunity to go 2 speed. ( all stuff Merc has done before)
Share a ssm with a bravo and and an outboard to get some volume. ( also sd and ob shared is something they have done before kind of)

[Chaz]

I can't wait until the converters get jammed in there. :p

Thanks Capt. ... ya just had to get him started ..... :eek: :D :D :D :D

Pssstttt Power .... I know you have a strange fetish for the EPA ... but ...>
The new EPA czar hates the &%$%$^& EPA as much as the rest of USA-1 .. :p

[powerabout]

Thanks Capt. ... ya just had to get him started ..... :eek: :D :D :D :D

Pssstttt Power .... I know you have a strange fetish for the EPA ... but ...>
The new EPA czar hates the &%$%$^& EPA as much as the rest of USA-1 .. :p
yep and whats changed?
Obama made the change that the EPA will be federal law ( that also meant the gov could turn stuff on and off)
I think Trump undid that, if so he lost control of the state based legislation possibly when he would have controlled it?
Not sure if that all played out, does anyone know?

PS doesnt the 400ROS 15" only exist because the Arabs made it so with their EPA?

[Double Rigged]

Simon Motorsport said they can:

We can tune the 400 to 450 without anything else done to the motor.

So they say but no one can post a dyno pull like they do with the tunes for cars.. Wonder why????????

[2jz]

It think the fact of having access to outboard dyno is why results not posted and the fact a hand full of people do outboard ecm flash. Almost every car performance shop has a dyno. I know someone did 350 verado flash to 375hp and gained 7mph. Whippe supercharger offers same 400r tune to 450hp. If verado was NA motor i would question the power gain a little bit but been that verado is force induction power gains is very easy achieve.

[AZMIDLYF]

Guessing the same reasons for no dyno postings...limited access to one.

[Davidlake]

Porsche based 1500 Hp, 233# 4 cylinder engine, 9000 RPM race circuit engine. Lower RPM and HP and this would be a long lasting outboard contender. Get rid of some of the exotics to get the costs down as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWyu4to4jws&t=5s

[davemvegas]

Porsche based 1500 Hp, 233# 4 cylinder engine, 9000 RPM race circuit engine. Lower RPM and HP and this would be a long lasting outboard contender. Get rid of some of the exotics to get the costs down as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWyu4to4jws&t=5s

cost is 120,000 euros. this cost will never get down to a outboard price.

[Davidlake]

There is a Porsche race shop here in the "405" that has been consistently making in excess of 500 HP from 944 engines for almost 20 years - with mostly stock parts. I think that a compromise engine could be brought forth for the outboard market power head.

[AZMIDLYF]

Import 4 cyl/turbo motors have been eclipsing those numbers for years as well. Heck, the Toyota GTP MKIII 3S-GT 4 cyl was over a thousand back in the 80s. One offs are always possible depending on how deep the pockets. Ask CRT how easy/expensive it is to do a production run.

[powerabout]

https://www.bulletraceengineering.com.au/billet-blocks

(https://www.bulletraceengineering.com.au/billet-blocks)Unbelievable horsepower ready blocks

[Double Rigged]

Simon had no problem with dyno pulls on his 3.0 liters showing 335hp.
7mph for 25hp. Really????? Most boats that went from 300xs motors to 400s picked up 12mph with 200hp gain. Not saying whipple is not legit and I know there are flashes out there but not a believer of 50hp gain with the 400

[powerabout]

if they were dumping lots of boost at the top end then I guess you could work with that?

[AZMIDLYF]

Guess it really depends on how soft the original tune was from Mother Merc with the 400R.

[JCSmile]

Guessing the same reasons for no dyno postings...limited access to one.

Wait, so they are claiming a 450hp tune of the 400R without a dyno pull to confirm? Interesting...

[KakaroT]

Shinanigans

[Davidlake]

How can anyone offer a new tune for a motor and claim any HP gains without testing on a dyno? All re-flashes should be analysed on a dyno including analyzing air fuel ratio, engine temp, EGT, exhaust gas composition, etc.

[1BadAction]

My prediction is a sub 400lb 250 or 300HP N/A racing motor loosely based on a current production powerhead, with DOHC and 4 or 5 valves per cylinder and NORMAL rigging, in 12, 15, and 20" versions. The Verado platform is mature and was never geared toward high perf use as most of us know it, they need a clean slate based on another production motor to keep the costs in check.

Furthermore, most people bitching and whining about the demise of the "lightweight" motors will still bitch and whine because 90% are broke dick boaters who were running 20+ year old cobbled together fishing motors and have never bought a new Merc Racing 2.5 even when they were available. The mainstream guys who actually bought new 2.5 drags and 280s will eventually start repowering and the early adopters will be all over them.

But why listen to me? I'm just a poor, dumb, cad guy. :reddevil:

[Capt.Insane-o]

I'm just waiting for a clapped out chinese 60 hp to come around cheap so I can slap a turbo on it and satisfy my sadistic curiosity of when https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.JPKbnwLoJRL9d0_PUzjC-AEsCo&pid=15.1&P=0&w=279&h=158 happens.


After taking inventory of my old sh*tty obsolete racing motor hoard yesterday and I'm good for quite a few years. Still a few unopened cardboard boxes with big long part numbers on the stickers.

[bsboss]

Surely someone has tried the reflash, and could share the results???

[noli]

.


where does Dale get his insider info :D

V8 500R....soon....like 2019 Miami boat show?




407666

[Double Rigged]

I would not bet on it. The way 400r's are selling it may be longer than that! We can only hope.

[KakaroT]

For sure they gona supercharge that unit soon

[conmax]

A
For sure they gona supercharge that unit soon
Each major marine show has had rumors of a 450 or 500 HP Verado and each has was met with denials from Merc racing. Eventually increases will happen but nothing official to affect buying decisions.

[AZMIDLYF]

They just need to amortize their 400R expenses first and then the fun begins with the new V8s.

[fatherb68]

I have heard there already is a 525 based on the v8. They have tested it and cant keep a gear case on it. That what I heard from someone in Florida.

[JPEROG]

I have heard there already is a 525 based on the v8. They have tested it and cant keep a gear case on it. That what I heard from someone in Florida.

Sounds like fake news to me. Looking forward to the future-

Joe

[powerabout]

Remember the v8 hyabusa tested to try and be a f1 replacment and the other v6 4stroke..
High teving multivalve 4s, cant compete unless boosted or needs multispeed gearboxes

[noli]

.


I wouldn't be surprised if an automobile supercharger guru is already working on supercharging the latest 300R V8 from Merc as an after market product

300R Seems like a good platform to be done on




.

[KakaroT]

That 300r poweplant has potential, its a v8 a roots super charger at 6-8lbs will make over 400hp easly

[1BadAction]

Remember the v8 hyabusa tested to try and be a f1 replacment and the other v6 4stroke..
High teving multivalve 4s, cant compete unless boosted or needs multispeed gearboxes

because a 2.x litre 4 stroke designed as a Motorcycle engine has the same torque characteristics as a 4.6 litre designed as an outboard, right? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[powerabout]

because a 2.x litre 4 stroke designed as a Motorcycle engine has the same torque characteristics as a 4.6 litre designed as an outboard, right? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:
correct so double the capacity and boosted a 4s can compete, yes your right

[Radiant]

I hope they throw a supercharger on the V8 but I'd be surprised if they do. I think we may see a V10. I heard a couple of rumors along those lines

[engineermike]

correct so double the capacity and boosted a 4s can compete, yes your right

Let's not get carried away. 40% more displacement, no boost, and same weight is all it takes. But that wasn't his point. His point was that you can't stick 2 motorcycle engines together and expect it to be a world beating outboard. That is not a strong point in your ongoing mission against the 4 stroke.

[1BadAction]

That is not a strong point in your ongoing mission against the 4 stroke.

There aren't really ANY strong points in his ongoing mission against the 4 stroke, IMO :D

[1BadAction]

correct so double the capacity and boosted a 4s can compete, yes your right

*you're.

I know I'm right. Thanks.

Not boosted. 4.6L isn't double 3L. It's the same weight and displacement doesn't mean a damn thing. Anything else I can correct you on just let me know. :thumbsup:

[JPEROG]

I hope they throw a supercharger on the V8 but I'd be surprised if they do. I think we may see a V10. I heard a couple of rumors along those lines

With the millions and millions of dollars spent to develop a ultra lightweight V-8 platform, you really believe that there is a chance of something else? This would make no sense to me when whats already on the table has potential beyond the mechanical limits of the drive line. Looking forward to the future....

Joe

[Radiant]

With the millions and millions of dollars spent to develop a ultra lightweight V-8 platform, you really believe that there is a chance of something else? This would make no sense to me when whats already on the table has potential beyond the mechanical limits of the drive line. Looking forward to the future....

Joe

Just a rumor I heard. And I heard Mercury made a big investment in new technology to be able to produce lighter blocks. Mercury has done a great job of not having any leaks. So we will all just keep guessing. Any ideas when the next announcement is?

[JPEROG]

No idea on whats coming, just thinking that the V-8 platform is the logical choice.

Joe

[300x Stoker]

I bought a kid a ice cream cone, then he complained it wasn't big enough!

[Whaaaaat]

With the millions and millions of dollars spent to develop a ultra lightweight V-8 platform, you really believe that there is a chance of something else? This would make no sense to me when whats already on the table has potential beyond the mechanical limits of the drive line. Looking forward to the future....

Joe

Engine development , millions.
Drive line development, $10. ?
The engineers in charge of lower units must have come from Pontiac, wider is better?
At this rate when they get to 1000 hp the gearcase will be half a ford 9 inch rear end with a $15,000 cnc 30 inch diameter prop.

[Hot Shot Merc]

Just a rumor I heard. And I heard Mercury made a big investment in new technology to be able to produce lighter blocks. Mercury has done a great job of not having any leaks. So we will all just keep guessing. Any ideas when the next announcement is?Guy's, What are your thoughts on using CGI (COMPACTED GRAPHITE IRON) for the blocks on the new merc 300R? In terms of weight savings and strength it seems that its a no brainer to use this material with the super charged V8 300R that's supposedly coming soon. With the added weight of the super charger and inter cooler with fluids this may help keep the weight down. My new F-150 has the 2.7 TT v-6 and its block is made from CGI. Its lighter than aluminum for the same size block and much stronger for increased cylinder pressure and thermal levels with forced induction engines. Also runs cooler. Its used in TOYOTA NASCAR engines and several other car makers as well. I know you guys aren't mercury racing engineers but for discussion sake I'm asking your thoughts. If you have never heard of the CGI technology here is a link to a good read about this light weight block material.

https://theshopmag.com/features/compacted-graphite-engine-blocks

[powerabout]

when you are going lighter and lighter but you want more and more power, I guess the graphs cross at some point?
Still technology always seems to deal with it, at a cost.

[Hot Shot Merc]

when you are going lighter and lighter but you want more and more power, I guess the graphs cross at some point?
Still technology always seems to deal with it, at a cost. I agree but if this material is used in a nascar engine that makes around 750-800 hp and turn over 9,000 rpm I think its not really an issue.

[berdes]

Looking at the new cowling designs and the stout appearance of the mid's, I keep wondering if they'll change to an inline gearset and move it up into the mid ?
Then add a modded speedmaster lower. What are the I/O's doing to hold the massive power of the supercharged inboards ?


Engine development , millions.
Drive line development, $10. ?
The engineers in charge of lower units must have come from Pontiac, wider is better?
At this rate when they get to 1000 hp the gearcase will be half a ford 9 inch rear end with a $15,000 cnc 30 inch diameter prop.

[FUJIMO]

...What are the I/O's doing to hold the massive power of the supercharged inboards ?
Mercury has, and have been for decades, using direct drive SpeedMasters. Marine transmissions ahead of them, and separate. Works well. There are others, such as the Arneson, etc. Simularly, a direct drive.

[FUJIMO]

Looking at the new cowling designs and the stout appearance of the mid's, I keep wondering if they'll change to an inline gearset and move it up into the mid ?
Then add a modded speedmaster lower.
Yes. Its been done already. By Mercury as well. You name it, its already been done. Very few new ideas out there.

[engineermike]

Guy's, What are your thoughts on using CGI (COMPACTED GRAPHITE IRON) for the blocks on the new merc 300R? In terms of weight savings and strength it seems that its a no brainer to use this material with the super charged V8 300R that's supposedly coming soon. With the added weight of the super charger and inter cooler with fluids this may help keep the weight down. My new F-150 has the 2.7 TT v-6 and its block is made from CGI. Its lighter than aluminum for the same size block and much stronger for increased cylinder pressure and thermal levels with forced induction engines. Also runs cooler. Its used in TOYOTA NASCAR engines and several other car makers as well. I know you guys aren't mercury racing engineers but for discussion sake I'm asking your thoughts. If you have never heard of the CGI technology here is a link to a good read about this light weight block material.

https://theshopmag.com/features/compacted-graphite-engine-blocks

The strength/weight ratio of aluminum is still much better than the CGI material, by as much as double. Not to mention corrosion resistance of iron is pretty terrible. Also consider that mercury recently purchased the largest die-casting machine in North America to die cast light weight aluminum engine blocks.

[Hot Shot Merc]

The strength/weight ratio of aluminum is still much better than the CGI material, by as much as double. Not to mention corrosion resistance of iron is pretty terribleHMMM? The articles ive read say just the opposite. Did you read through the link i posted?

[engineermike]

HMMM? The articles ive read say just the opposite. Did you read through the link i posted?

Yes, and the actual material specs don't exactly agree with what the article says. CGI is almost 3 times more dense than aluminum. Depending on grade of each, CGI is the same strength to maybe 50% higher. It doesn't beat aluminum in strength/weight ratio.

[Hot Shot Merc]

Yes, and the actual material specs don't exactly agree with what the article says. CGI is almost 3 times more dense than aluminum. Depending on grade of each, CGI is the same strength to maybe 50% higher. It doesn't beat aluminum in strength/weight ratio.Thats strange. I thought I read where its stronger thus making it possible to make the walls thinner wich makes it lighter than an aluminum block

[engineermike]

Thats strange. I thought I read where its stronger thus making it possible to make the walls thinner wich makes it lighter than an aluminum block

It is stronger, but it's almost 3 times heavier. So even if you cut down on part thickness by 30% to account for the strength, the final part still weighs 70% more.

[Hot Shot Merc]

It is stronger, but it's almost 3 times heavier. So even if you cut down on part thickness by 30% to account for the strength, the final part still weighs 70% more.Ok Im not tryng to sound like im arguing with yoiu however all the reading ive done completely contradicts what your saying. What do I know im just a pool guy :cool: Where are you getting this information from? Ford and other sites tell a different story. Thanks for the input mike :)

[engineermike]

Ok Im not tryng to sound like im arguing with yoiu however all the reading ive done completely contradicts what your saying. What do I know im just a pool guy :cool: Where are you getting this information from? Ford and other sites tell a different story. Thanks for the input mike :)

No problem. You can google the material properties of each. MatWeb for instance is a reputable site. The density is pretty straight forward, as the CGI is about 7.1 g/cc while aluminum is about 2.7. This means any given geometry will weigh 2.6 times more, regardless of grade. The highest tensile strength I saw for a common CGI was around 450 MPa but 500 is out there. Common aluminum alloys are 275-325 (6061 T6 is in this range) but this is highly dependent on grade. Some aluminum alloys are actually over 500 MPa but I doubt they are casting blocks with those grades. At any rate, you can see the the weight of CGI is much higher and it's only a little stronger. If you apply a marketing spin on it, you can choose lower grades of aluminum to compare to.

[Hot Shot Merc]

Interesting. The properties are pretty Greek to me. I didn't delve that deep into it with my previous google search's but the marketing literature sure makes it out to be the shiznit :D

[berdes]

Thanks for the info. Any specific examples? I'm familiar with the inboard trans like the cyborg, but never seen an outboard with shifting gears other than in the lower ?


Yes. Its been done already. By Mercury as well. You name it, its already been done. Very few new ideas out there.

[JPEROG]

Interesting. The properties are pretty Greek to me. I didn't delve that deep into it with my previous google search's but the marketing literature sure makes it out to be the shiznit :D

Rob,

From what I have heard, they have done very extensive testing on these castings "trying to break them" and they are incredibly strong. Its been claimed that the new block is actually lighter then an XS block despite its increased size. The steel sleeves are super thin to stay on track with rest of the platforms "diet plan". Mercury did this thing right so that no one else is going to be at their level anytime soon.

Joe

[Hot Shot Merc]

Rob,
Mercury did this thing right so that no one else is going to be at their level anytime soon.

Joe Great points Joe.

And no one else has ever been at Mercury's level to begin with :D

Seriously though, it would great if BRP started a racing division and put something similar out. Would be like Ford VS Chevy etc. I know its not a huge profitable venture but competition is great for all in the end.

[FUJIMO]

Thanks for the info. Any specific examples? I'm familiar with the inboard trans like the cyborg, but never seen an outboard with shifting gears other than in the lower ?...Well...For one...remember the 1968 Mercury 1250 BP gearcase?

[FUJIMO]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/mark75h/Scan-080309-0002.jpg

[FUJIMO]

The gear ratio of the BP gearcase could be changed in a minute, once the lower unit was dropped off the engine, by simply swapping the gearsets at the top of the gearcase...http://readmanuals.com/parts/outboard.motors/mercury/images/mercury-mariner-1250bp-parts-3.gear-housing-assembly-complete-page-2-5.png

[FUJIMO]

http://www.marineengine.com/parts/mercury_marine_parts/static/img/MERMAR/55046/G4.gif

[powerabout]

Just a rumor I heard. And I heard Mercury made a big investment in new technology to be able to produce lighter blocks. Mercury has done a great job of not having any leaks. So we will all just keep guessing. Any ideas when the next announcement is?

Correct they bought one of the most high tech die casting machines on the planet.
There was some press somewhere about the new thin wall castings they can make

[FUJIMO]

https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/Dennis/53/587553/H1524-L94385245.jpg

[powerabout]

Thanks for the info. Any specific examples? I'm familiar with the inboard trans like the cyborg, but never seen an outboard with shifting gears other than in the lower ?

Omc had a twin pinion full shif box as well in the late 60's.
The design was used again on tbe offshore version of the f1v8

[engineermike]

https://www.mercurymarine.com/en/us/news/mercury-marines-new-high-pressure-die-casting-machine-is-now-the-largest-in-north-america/

[FUJIMO]

https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/Dennis/53/587553/H1524-L94385239.jpg

[FUJIMO]

Photos & description of the Buhler-Prince DieCast Machine were documented early on, in the "Mercury Through The Years" thread...

[mach351]

https://www.mercurymarine.com/en/us/news/mercury-marines-new-high-pressure-die-casting-machine-is-now-the-largest-in-north-america/
That’s one serious tool right there. Wow

[Whaaaaat]

Just imagine how light they could make a REAL outboard with these techniques!

[engineermike]

Just imagine how light they could make a REAL outboard with these techniques!

You're right. They could probably cut 25-50 lb off the verado!

[Capt.Insane-o]

https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/Dennis/53/587553/H1524-L94385245.jpg

Yeah but........

[Capt.Insane-o]

...Well...For one...remember the 1968 Mercury 1250 BP gearcase?

Yeah but.....

[mr fun]

just tuned in to this channel, and hit the last page ,,, where's the 500 hp R motor ??? don't get me wrong, loove me some Towa's, but just got off a page talking about a 38' cat runnin over a hun wit 400 hp's, lookin for that magic 500 #

[berdes]

No. I thought all the speedmasters were forward only. Spent the last hour looking thru old posts about this motor. Maybe time to re-introduce the same type of thinking to
take the load off the lowers. Thanks, that's some really cool stuff.



...Well...For one...remember the 1968 Mercury 1250 BP gearcase?

[Capt.Insane-o]

The shifting speedies were made to get around a rule clause, they would shift once, maybe twice,or if you were really lucky a few times.