New to me 23' Eliminator Daytona

[RikuY]

I feel great to be back among the floating! I picked up a new to me 1982 Eliminator Daytona 23' with twin 1995 or 1996 2.5 260's (8,200 limiter) spinning out, on para-lift brackets, transom mounted water pick-up, and has a "Limited Edition by RPM Racing" plaque on the left-hand drive dash. California style interior with lounges behind driver and co-pilot seats and rear bench. Training wheels are 24 pitch 3-blade choppers with a "top-end" set of 32 pitch 3-blade choppers. Hull seems light for everything I have read about these being heavy. The forward cuddy is bare and open. Any information that can be provided on this would be greatly appreciated. I think I will be on training wheels for at least a season, this is my first twin set-up. The boat has some character, but I can learn now and not worry about scrapes etc. Plan is to get it split open and re-done after plenty of seat time.

Any ideas on tank size? Previous owner would pump 30 gallons of premium and add 1 gallon of Merc HP oil.

This set-up had a 12-year barn stay, so the motors are cleaner than most 20-year old 2.5's!

Thanks in advance!

[eli]

we had a 1988 23 daytona for 12 years ,what we found out is 24 choppers are great for a boat load of people
or drag racing your buds ,or spankin other boats on the lake in short course,your 32 choppers you wont like after 85/90 mph the boat will get naughty
buy a set of 14 1/2 x 30 or 32 lab cleavers they are smoother less steering torque especially with morse cable steering ,you should go hydraulic steering
at some point its really nice other than that 23 daytona is nice safe boat for whole family handles moderate rough water easily we used to go 90 in 3 footers mid aft when all wakeboard /ski boats were ideling
your boat looks awsum have fun with it be safe ,it does like to be pointed at the wind to go fast instead of down wind because of no steps in hull not much positive trim needed into the wind . our's had twin 30 gal tanks
up to 7000 rpm 40 to 1 is ok if your going to run 24 choppers light load spin er to 8000 then 32 to 1

[engineermike]

Subscribing. I have a 1990 23' with a top cap that looks like no other I can find. Mine has twin Yamaha 300 hpdi's. I had them turning out but a knowledgable local recommended I switch them because I have porpoising right at 70. Never been over 75 in it. I have a set of 24" bravo1's now and a pair of 30" bravo1's in the attic.

I made the switch from twin cable to hydraulic sea star tournament and love it.

[RikuY]

350667350668350669
Thanks for posting, EngineerMike! Here is my set-up. The Para-Lift has 12" setback at the sweet spot. I am wondering how much setback you have because I don't experience any porpoising at those speeds. I know your motors are heavier too, so maybe that could be why? Mine are turning out. Do you have any pictures you can post of your transom set-up?

[engineermike]

350822350823350824

[engineermike]

Shaft center lines are about even with the bottom of the center pod. Setback is about 12".

[engineermike]

Top deck pic. Anyone seen another like it?350825

[eli]

looks like a 24 daytona

[engineermike]

looks like a 24 daytona

The windshield is squared off unlike the 24's I've seen. Also, it measured 23' not including jack plate.

[eli]

either way its a beauty

[engineermike]

Thanks Eli! You need to come show me how to drive it.

RikuY, sorry for the thread hijack!

[RikuY]

Cool looking Eliminator! I like how clean the lines are! Not a hijack at all, we are talking 23' Daytona's and yours looks great! When I split mine open and refresh it, I am getting rid of the 4 side windows by the registration numbers and the top hatch, so your's gives me an idea how the smooth lines will look.

Your lines look classic to me, do you have a cuddy up front? If not, maybe your balance is off causing the porpoising? Can you stuff some weight up there? Eli, did you have a cuddy in yours?

I am getting my my motors tested for compression and leak down and a good look over by a respected guy here local. I am learning about these 2.5 260's, and I am getting more and more excited!

[HydroSkreamin]

I'm wondering if there was a California deck and a Wisconsin (Shawano) deck. The attached page from an Eliminator brochure from 1988 shows both decks. My boat is a Shawano boat and has the taller/sculpted deck, not flat.
350941

[RikuY]

Awesome post Hydroskreamin! Do you have any more pages of the brochure? I thought I had two 35 gallon tanks, and now I know! Thank you! My deck looks like yours, with the hatch and raised section. I was told it came from California though?!? Thanks to all the contributors on this post so far!

[HydroSkreamin]

Awesome post Hydroskreamin! Do you have any more pages of the brochure? I thought I had two 35 gallon tanks, and now I know! Thank you! My deck looks like yours, with the hatch and raised section. I was told it came from California though?!? Thanks to all the contributors on this post so far!

I have ALL the pages of the brochure scanned, as it was my buddy's. I also have single sheet pamphlets that I scanned from him as well. Maybe I should post them in the photos section?? The single page flyer has what I believe to be Marv Jorgenson and ?Bill?'s triple engine monsters.

My tanks measure 12" tall, 72" long, 8" at the bottom, and 10" at the top, figuring out to 33 gallons using the outside dimensions, but if you figure a 1/4" less for aluminum thickness in each direction, they figure out to about 30 gallons.

I'm finishing a refurb on mine, hopefully heading to interior here in the next week or so. Believe me, I've seen pix of yours before, as I've looked up images for 23 and 24 Daytonas for the last 3 years getting ideas, seeing what all the differences are over the years, and what I like and don't like. Eli's old boat is one of the cleanest examples, ever.

I can also tell you to take care of that hatch, as I looked hi and low for a replacement, and they are not to be found. I didn't want to have to redo any gel work on mine, so I ended up putting a larger hatch in, and having to slide it back to fit the raised feature in the deck, and that forced me to have to do a filler plate. It came out nice, but was expensive to replace, and time consuming to make the adapter. My smoked lid is in one piece and has stress cracks, but is usable. The frame was junk.

Let me know about the brochures. If people think I should post them in the photo section, I will. I scanned them for good clarity, so they are big files. I also wanted to be able to reference them cleanly for myself when I had questions.

[engineermike]

Mine had triple engines on it at some point in time. I suspect triple 200's.

[RikuY]

Hydroskreamin, please do post them up. That would be great!

Thanks for verifying what I thought was going to happen regarding the hatch. I know I would lose a lot of light in there by closing it all up, but it sure would clean the lines up! Do you find the hatch useful now?

I would also like to see your refurbishing project. Do you have pics to do a before/after show'n'tell?

[HydroSkreamin]

Hydroskreamin, please do post them up. That would be great!

Thanks for verifying what I thought was going to happen regarding the hatch. I know I would lose a lot of light in there by closing it all up, but it sure would clean the lines up! Do you find the hatch useful now?

I would also like to see your refurbishing project. Do you have pics to do a before/after show'n'tell?

Glad you like, and it's nice to have some chatter with Eliminator guys. I have been looking hi and low for info on these for 3 years now. When the boat goes for interior, I will start a thread chronicling the 2 year process of this unit. It is an unconventional build, as it will be powered by a 400R, and I notched the center pod 6"x60". So yeah, I cut the bottom out of my boat. There's other stuff, too, I think you guys will like, we'll see. Trying to get the bulkheads and floor in so it can go for interior. I really want to splash this thing before the water gets hard here. Since I haven't used it yet (ever), I cannot comment on your hatch question. I'm looking for cabin ventilation from it more than anything. There will be a string of LED's along the top of the gunnel in the cabin for light, so I'm not too concerned about that.

If I get time this weekend, I will try to start a thread with the Eliminator brochures in the Photo&Video section, no promises.

Here is a pic before I started on it.
350993

[eli]

Cool looking Eliminator! I like how clean the lines are! Not a hijack at all, we are talking 23' Daytona's and yours looks great! When I split mine open and refresh it, I am getting rid of the 4 side windows by the registration numbers and the top hatch, so your's gives me an idea how the smooth lines will look.

Your lines look classic to me, do you have a cuddy up front? If not, maybe your balance is off causing the porpoising? Can you stuff some weight up there? Eli, did you have a cuddy in yours?

I am getting my my motors tested for compression and leak down and a good look over by a respected guy here local. I am learning about these 2.5 260's, and I am getting more and more excited! it had cuddy the grand kids went in there i went in there in rain storms was not enough room to pokemom tho

[HydroSkreamin]

Gents, I've started a thread in the Photos & Videos section with the catalog. Here's a link: http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?319593-1988-Eliminator-Sales-Catalog&p=2881306#post2881306

[engineermike]

Took mine out today with the props turning in. Still porpoisong at 65 mph. Ugh....

[engineermike]

Both HydroSkreamin and NICE PAIR have requested setup dimensions so I set it all up and took them today. I've noticed that some folks talk engine height from the bottom of the pod and others talk engine height from the sponson directly in front of the engine. I took the heights 3 different ways and here's what I got with the bottom of the sponsons level to the ground and prop shafts level to ground:

- Prop shaft centerlines are 1/2" above the bottom of the center pod.
- Prop shaft centerlines are 5/8" below the bottom edge of the sponsons (I didn't realize the center pod was lower than the bottoms of the sponsons).
- Prop shaft centerlines are 1 1/8" below the sponson, as measured directly inline with the lower unit.

I'm currently in the 2nd highest hole, so I can only raise them 3/4" from where they are without doing any major work.

[NICE PAIR]

Both HydroSkreamin and NICE PAIR have requested setup dimensions so I set it all up and took them today. I've noticed that some folks talk engine height from the bottom of the pod and others talk engine height from the sponson directly in front of the engine. I took the heights 3 different ways and here's what I got with the bottom of the sponsons level to the ground and prop shafts level to ground:

- Prop shaft centerlines are 1/2" above the bottom of the center pod.
- Prop shaft centerlines are 5/8" below the bottom edge of the sponsons (I didn't realize the center pod was lower than the bottoms of the sponsons).
- Prop shaft centerlines are 1 1/8" below the sponson, as measured directly inline with the lower unit.

I'm currently in the 2nd highest hole, so I can only raise them 3/4" from where they are without doing any major work.

They look low to me, the 3/4" move up cost noting but some time, try it. I'm thinkin they still need to go UP.

360230

[Euroski]

Took mine out today with the props turning in. Still porpoisong at 65 mph. Ugh....

What happens above 65, does it stop?

[engineermike]

What happens above 65, does it stop?

No, I haven't been able to go over about 66 with it. It's only prop'd for 75 though (24" bravo 1's).

i really appreciate the guidance, guys. Looks like I'll be raising them 3/4" and maybe putting on some 30's that I have.

[NICE PAIR]

It looks like if you moved the motors up 3/4" (putting the bolts in the lowest holes) there appears to be enough material @ the top of your motor plates to drill new holes @ the level of the top holes in the motor brackets.
That would allow you to start raising the motors 3/4" @ a time till you get up to 1 1/2" above bottom.

360231

[blowitup]

my 23 center line 2" above pod on tunnel

[HydroSkreamin]

It looks like if you moved the motors up 3/4" (putting the bolts in the lowest holes) there appears to be enough material @ the top of your motor plates to drill new holes @ the level of the top holes in the motor brackets.
That would allow you to start raising the motors 3/4" @ a time till you get up to 1 1/2" above bottom.


I agree!

EngineerMike, generally you use the dimensional difference of the propshaft centerline with drive level to boat bottom directly in front of the drive.


Another thing that I noticed after taking measurements on mine is that the center pod is not level with the sponsons; mine was 3 degrees down. This helps planing, but will also tend to drive the nose down, kind of like dragging a tab. I've always wondered if that is why you see so much positive trim in every picture you see of these things running fast. Most other center pod boats run near level or tucked at speed.

I'm also curious to see where your CG is.

[engineermike]

Ok, raised them to the highest hole. Now I'm measuring prop shaft centerline is 1 1/8" higher than the center pod and right at even with the hull directly in line with the engine. Still have to test though. I'm thinking about swapping my 24's out for my 30's also.

[NICE PAIR]

Ok, raised them to the highest hole. Now I'm measuring prop shaft centerline is 1 1/8" higher than the center pod and right at even with the hull directly in line with the engine. Still have to test though. I'm thinking about swapping my 24's out for my 30's also.

I have no idea how much grunt the Yammies have but the Bravos hook up pretty good. You may have to put vent holes in the prop barrels to get it on plane. I run 1 1/4 vents on my 32 Bravos.

If you can borrow some vented 30's, that would be the ticket. (or 28's)
Get a reference on your trim, and know where it is when your testing, if you have to use a lot of positive trim, you may need different props or a new game plan. excessive + trim is not a cure. Good luck with your test.

[engineermike]

My 30's have 1.25" vent holes as well. The 24's don't have vent holes. Either holeshot like a drag car as the lower unit ratio is 1.81.

[NICE PAIR]

My 30's have 1.25" vent holes as well. The 24's don't have vent holes. Either holeshot like a drag car as the lower unit ratio is 1.81.

1:81 .......... throw some 32's on it. You might find that once you get to 75/85mph it settles down and flies right. :-)

p.s. you gotta jacket & kill switch?

[engineermike]

Good question....I have a neoprene jacket and always wear the lanyard. I'd very much like to not need them though.

[NICE PAIR]

Good question....I have a neoprene jacket and always wear the lanyard. I'd very much like to not need them though.


Nice thought ... would be nice to have if you unexpectedly stepped out of the boat for a stroll. ;-)

[eli]

i think i was 3 in above with 14 inch setback water pickups on center pod on my 23 ,turning out choppers never worked boat got naughty at 75
cleavers made a great difference it would settle down and easier to drive , make sure the last 3 feet of sponson have no hook a lot of them did that is only pic i have of back of boat i wish i had a lower pic so you could see propshaft height ,maybe by looking at how hi the motor's look on boat might help the set back brackets were adjustable

[engineermike]

Resurrecting the old thread....got mine back out there with the motors mounted all the way up (shaft cl even with sponson). I also put the 30" bravo1's on. Still proposing around 65. I've had this boat together for 3-4 years and never been able to get much over 75 with it. I'm a little frustrated.

[eli]

Resurrecting the old thread....got mine back out there with the motors mounted all the way up (shaft cl even with sponson). I also put the 30" bravo1's on. Still proposing around 65. I've had this boat together for 3-4 years and never been able to get much over 75 with it. I'm a little frustrated.
Have a bud look over at lowers when going 65 you should see the whole bullet out of the water you will need low water pickups

[engineermike]

I have Bob's cones and lwp's.

[eli]

raise motor's 1/4 inch at time and test

[tb2054]

it is what it is, and all it will ever be !!!

[engineermike]

Good news, guys, finally got past the hop. I'm not even sure what happened but he boat flew beautifully today. 30" bravo1's trimmed level and was hard on the rev limiters at 88 mph gps. There were 2 differences today, one being the boat was lighter than normal due to the fuel tanks being nearly empty. Also, before I was trying to sneak past the hop by gently accelerating. Today I accidentally figured this out by opening the throttle wot for a quick blast, looked at the speedo and it was showing 85. I didn't even realize I was going that fast!

[HydroSkreamin]

Glad you were finally able to "get on top", isn't that an awesome feeling?

Still wondering where your propshaft centerlines ended up when trimmed level with the bottom of the sponson. The prop only knows the water that is hitting it, so generally a good reference is to use a digital level, set it to alternate zero on your sponson in front of the GC, set the level with the same alternate zero on your propshaft until level, then take a long straightedge on the bottom of your sponson and measure where the center of the nose of your GC is in relation to the straightedge. This will get you the propshaft height to bottom measurement.

Got access to 32's? Sounds like you might have a fun summer experimenting with moving weight around and trying props. Stay safe, good luck!

[engineermike]

.... isn't that an awesome feeling?

yes! I was grinning ear to ear. I got the boat because I didn't like constantly fighting my old chine-walking vee, so flying the Daytona at 80+ without having to white-knuckle it plus having time to look at gauges was a pleasure!


Still wondering where your propshaft centerlines ended up when trimmed level with the bottom of the sponson...

I set the boat level using a machinist level, then trimmed to get the prop shafts level. Using this method, the CL of the prop shafts are even with the bottom of the sponson directly inline with the Lu.


Got access to 32's?

I don't, but that may not be enough. I think 32's would only get me to about 95 and the boat has power to go well over 100 I believe.

[RikuY]

Awesome! I figured I would check in to SnF today with rain looming overhead. I smiled as I read EngineerMike's post.

[engineermike]

Guys, got a question. My steering tie rod is female threaded both ends, reverse on one end. One end has a jam nut, and the other does not. I figure this is to allow you to trim one engine independent of the other without putting the tie rod in a bind. However, on the end without the jam nut, the threads have more play in them than I like. It doesn't seem like it would take too much force to pull the remaining threads out. Anyone else have experience with this?

[eli]

should not be any play in them threads put a jam nut on there and see if you can snug it up trim the motors the same maybe just buy the ends that swivel ,i have non swivel on mine works ok , some day get the latter

[engineermike]

378870
Love this pic!

Thanks Eli, I think I'm going to buy a heim joint for one end.

[engineermike]

Guys, let me get your opinions on this. If I were to repower my 23 eliminator with new engines, what would you do? I'm currently running twin 300 vmax hpdi's with custom Bob's coned lowers.

Options:

1. Twin 250 sho's. Would need custom lowers due to Yamaha not making a 20" LH. I would expect 100-110 mph and great acceleration, plus be able to keep most of my rigging. Unique, as I don't think this has been done before. $39k
2. Twin 250 or 300xs. Could use them factory stock but have to rerig some stuff. Should accelerate great and hit a solid 110 I think. Proven combo but not anything special, plus I was hoping to go 4 stroke. $36-40k
3. Single verado 400r. Could use it factory stock. Would expect 100 mph and mediocre acceleration, but would need a lot of new rigging. Cool, the new hot thing. $31k
3.5. (Edit) Single verado 350. Available in 20" but not with a sport master. Not sure how the 5.44" case would work at speed. Would expect low 90's and mediocre acceleration. Would require new controls and complete new steering. $25k.
4. Single 250 sho. Could use it stock with little rigging. Would expect 80-85 mph and meh acceleration. Not much of a performance machine. $19k

Thoughts and opinions? Any options I missed?

[eli]

couple of merc 280's sure would sound better lol

[engineermike]

I don't disagree, but I was looking at new engines...

[HydroSkreamin]

Guys, let me get your opinions on this. If I were to repower my 23 eliminator with new engines, what would you do? I'm currently running twin 300 vmax hpdi's with custom Bob's coned lowers.

Options:

1. Twin 250 sho's. Would need custom lowers due to Yamaha not making a 20" LH. I would expect 100-110 mph and great acceleration, plus be able to keep most of my rigging. Unique, as I don't think this has been done before. $39k
2. Twin 250 or 300xs. Could use them factory stock but have to rerig some stuff. Should accelerate great and hit a solid 110 I think. Proven combo but not anything special, plus I was hoping to go 4 stroke. $36-40k
3. Single verado 400r. Could use it factory stock. Would expect 100 mph and mediocre acceleration, but would need a lot of new rigging. Cool, the new hot thing. $31k
3.5. (Edit) Single verado 350. Available in 20" but not with a sport master. Not sure how the 5.44" case would work at speed. Would expect low 90's and mediocre acceleration. Would require new controls and complete new steering. $25k.
4. Single 250 sho. Could use it stock with little rigging. Would expect 80-85 mph and meh acceleration. Not much of a performance machine. $19k

Thoughts and opinions? Any options I missed?

EngineerMike, I think you're spot on for your twin speed assumptions, but a little optimistic on the singles. Hopefully we see what one runs with a 400R here in the next month or so, mine is at Checkmate getting a new interior and gel repairs. I'm hoping to have it rigged and running in August. I'm expecting 90-95, we shall see. I think high 70's would be all I'd expect with a single 250., 80 would be cooking with a single 250, JMHO.

To the OP, RikuY, how are things with your boat, now that you've had it a year?

[engineermike]

Hydroscreamin, you might be right. My speeds were just guestimates. My original take was that a single engine will suffer a lot of acceleration loss but not that much top speed loss due to weight and drag reductions. However I found one guy that only managed upper 60's with a single 275 (v8). There's another guy claiming 87 from a single 225 and 98 from a single 300, but he did major hull mods to knock something like 800 lb out of it. Now I'm thinking 75 from a single 250 or 95 from a 400r.

[HydroSkreamin]

EngineerMike, I'm in agreement with you. I did run the numbers in the speed calculator, keeping the hull constant the same for each combo, using 265 as the number. This may change twin to single, but keeping it the same for calc purposes allows only the HP change to be seen.

If you keep a boat weight of 3200, you can see with 520 HP (2-260's like Eli's combo) nets 107, the 250 nets 74, and the 400 nets 94. Note also in the link it is referring to UNcorrected HP, so the LIE FACTOR on a dyno will skew results. ;) It's a ballpark tool for me, I wouldn't get caught up in it trying to predict to the last MPH, but it does help add some reality to how much power it'll take a combo to pick up 10 MPH if you have a good baseline.

http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm
(http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm)
My hull weighed 1540 before I started on it with tanks, and weighed 1540 when I was done with it without tanks, but I added a 3rd layer to the transom, more layers of glass in the sponsons to replace rotten core, and crossbracing every two feet to stiffen the whole boat up. If you want to read a novel and see the build thread, here it is: http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?155360-Project-StressEliminator-Restomod-23-Daytona

So the bare hull with tanks is 1620, I'm predicting 400 lbs for interior and stereo, 80 lbs for batteries, 680 lb engine (ready to run: steering cyl, 8L oil in sump), 50 lbs for Stainless Marine Gorilla jackplate, 25 lbs for power steering and jack plate pump, 120 lbs for fuel (20 gal), plus 200 lbs for driver equals 3175.

A twin 300 XS can add 330 lbs for the difference in engines, 40+ lbs for twin 3 gal oil tanks with oil, another setback bracket (40-50 lbs), and steering ( 10 lbs per engine, or 20 lbs), which is an additional 430 lbs on the conservative side.

Have you weighed your boat yet with the twin Yammi's? It would be good knowledge to have. I've done the "drop the boat and weigh truck and trailer separate" method, and just weigh the boat on scales, they come out the same.:D

[engineermike]

The more I think about it, the more it looks like a repower with a 400r or a pair of 250xs makes the most sense, or just leave the 300's. I just have trouble getting excited about the pair of xs motors. They're 2 stroke and been done many times. Based on forum reading, the 400r needs a center pod to work right on a cat. The skater guys are whining about difficulty setting up a single with no pod. If there were a perfect hull for a single 400r, the 23 eliminator might be it. I know at least one 22' talon and 22' liberator have been done (both have center pods) with speeds of 110 - "115MPH with more speed on tap." They're also claiming 110 with a single 300xs and I'm certain the elim 23 won't do that.

[JPEROG]

I agree that if a 400 single is going to work on a midsize cat then you have the perfect one for it. I would wait to see how hydros performs. I sent you a pm on your 300s before I saw the pictures on this thread.

Joe

[Tightrig 12]

Bad Ass....looks great !

[engineermike]

I've sadly hurt an engine, so I decided to try and sell the twins and rigging and convert to a single. In case anyone knows anyone looking for a cheap route to 660 hp worth of twin outboard power plus quality rigging, here is a link:

http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?330956-Pair-of-2005-Yamaha-vmax-300-s-with-hydrotec-stage-2-kits

[engineermike]

Hydroskreamin, did you get your boat going with the 400r? Do you have any pics of it?

[HydroSkreamin]

Hydroskreamin, did you get your boat going with the 400r? Do you have any pics of it?

I'm assuming you are asking for pictures of it rigged, correct?

I have not gotten it rigged yet as it has been in interior purgatory since June. I was supposed to pick it up tomorrow and that got pushed off. Hopefully, I can get it running before the water gets hard here. I probably can't get to it for a month now due to work commitments, but I'm going to do everything in my power once I actually have it in my garage to finish rigging it and run a few props across it before the water gets hard.

If interested, I do have a pic with the jackplate and engine bolted to the transom when I drilled the new transom.

[engineermike]

Yes, post it!

On a side note, how fast is a 23' eliminator with twin 200's?

[Tightrig 12]

I would be curious to know....... I just purchased a 23 with twin 225's

[tunnelfun]

Hydroscreamin, you might be right. My speeds were just guestimates. My original take was that a single engine will suffer a lot of acceleration loss but not that much top speed loss due to weight and drag reductions. However I found one guy that only managed upper 60's with a single 275 (v8). There's another guy claiming 87 from a single 225 and 98 from a single 300, but he did major hull mods to knock something like 800 lb out of it. Now I'm thinking 75 from a single 250 or 95 from a 400r.
That would be me. A stock 23 hull will run the following speeds with the listed motors.

300 v8 65
twin 200 v6 80

After hull corrections

200 v6 80, super slow acceleration.
225 v6 87 medium slow acceleration
300 v8 100 , fast acceleration
300 v6 100, medium acceleration

[tunnelfun]

The more I think about it, the more it looks like a repower with a 400r or a pair of 250xs makes the most sense, or just leave the 300's. I just have trouble getting excited about the pair of xs motors. They're 2 stroke and been done many times. Based on forum reading, the 400r needs a center pod to work right on a cat. The skater guys are whining about difficulty setting up a single with no pod. If there were a perfect hull for a single 400r, the 23 eliminator might be it. I know at least one 22' talon and 22' liberator have been done (both have center pods) with speeds of 110 - "115MPH with more speed on tap." They're also claiming 110 with a single 300xs and I'm certain the elim 23 won't do that.Most likely 110 with single 300x

[tunnelfun]

The 23 is NOT weight tolorant. Twins make the problems worse. Your wasting your money if you don't get the weight out.
I know, I ran them with twin 200's, 260's and 400 v8's.
We have yet to see a properly setup twin 23. If you running 5 sheets of 3/4 inch sub floor glassed both sides and 500 pounds of interior your beating a dead horse. This is because of bottom flaws. You will have to get the weight out or alter the bottom or both. For twins the bottom correction is made to the outer sponsons starting 6 feet from the back and goes forward, it does not involve cutting the boat.
For a single engine DO NOT CUT the center pod. Been there done that. When done right the boat will run on JUST THE POD. If you get the weight out. I've run 22 Talon's , 21 Daytona's and most of the rest. The 23 Daytona is the best single runabout I've ever driven. When done right. It's bigger, more comfortable, takes more water and RUNS JUST AS FAST. When done right it will run 95 with one 300 Promax and FOUR adults. That's much faster loaded than the others.
It will NOT reach an acceptable level of performance STOCK.

Any questions?

[tunnelfun]

EngineerMike, I'm in agreement with you. I did run the numbers in the speed calculator, keeping the hull constant the same for each combo, using 265 as the number. This may change twin to single, but keeping it the same for calc purposes allows only the HP change to be seen.

If you keep a boat weight of 3200, you can see with 520 HP (2-260's like Eli's combo) nets 107, the 250 nets 74, and the 400 nets 94. Note also in the link it is referring to UNcorrected HP, so the LIE FACTOR on a dyno will skew results. ;) It's a ballpark tool for me, I wouldn't get caught up in it trying to predict to the last MPH, but it does help add some reality to how much power it'll take a combo to pick up 10 MPH if you have a good baseline.

http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm
(http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm)
My hull weighed 1540 before I started on it with tanks, and weighed 1540 when I was done with it without tanks, but I added a 3rd layer to the transom, more layers of glass in the sponsons to replace rotten core, and crossbracing every two feet to stiffen the whole boat up. If you want to read a novel and see the build thread, here it is: http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?155360-Project-StressEliminator-Restomod-23-Daytona

So the bare hull with tanks is 1620, I'm predicting 400 lbs for interior and stereo, 80 lbs for batteries, 680 lb engine (ready to run: steering cyl, 8L oil in sump), 50 lbs for Stainless Marine Gorilla jackplate, 25 lbs for power steering and jack plate pump, 120 lbs for fuel (20 gal), plus 200 lbs for driver equals 3175.

A twin 300 XS can add 330 lbs for the difference in engines, 40+ lbs for twin 3 gal oil tanks with oil, another setback bracket (40-50 lbs), and steering ( 10 lbs per engine, or 20 lbs), which is an additional 430 lbs on the conservative side.

Have you weighed your boat yet with the twin Yammi's? It would be good knowledge to have. I've done the "drop the boat and weigh truck and trailer separate" method, and just weigh the boat on scales, they come out the same.:DA stripped California 23 with no transom or stringers(don't need the stringers) will weight 900 pounds, Wisconsin 800 pounds. The calculator doesn't work for the 23.

[tunnelfun]

EngineerMike, I'm in agreement with you. I did run the numbers in the speed calculator, keeping the hull constant the same for each combo, using 265 as the number. This may change twin to single, but keeping it the same for calc purposes allows only the HP change to be seen.

If you keep a boat weight of 3200, you can see with 520 HP (2-260's like Eli's combo) nets 107, the 250 nets 74, and the 400 nets 94. Note also in the link it is referring to UNcorrected HP, so the LIE FACTOR on a dyno will skew results. ;) It's a ballpark tool for me, I wouldn't get caught up in it trying to predict to the last MPH, but it does help add some reality to how much power it'll take a combo to pick up 10 MPH if you have a good baseline.

http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm
(http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm)
My hull weighed 1540 before I started on it with tanks, and weighed 1540 when I was done with it without tanks, but I added a 3rd layer to the transom, more layers of glass in the sponsons to replace rotten core, and crossbracing every two feet to stiffen the whole boat up. If you want to read a novel and see the build thread, here it is: http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?155360-Project-StressEliminator-Restomod-23-Daytona

So the bare hull with tanks is 1620, I'm predicting 400 lbs for interior and stereo, 80 lbs for batteries, 680 lb engine (ready to run: steering cyl, 8L oil in sump), 50 lbs for Stainless Marine Gorilla jackplate, 25 lbs for power steering and jack plate pump, 120 lbs for fuel (20 gal), plus 200 lbs for driver equals 3175.

A twin 300 XS can add 330 lbs for the difference in engines, 40+ lbs for twin 3 gal oil tanks with oil, another setback bracket (40-50 lbs), and steering ( 10 lbs per engine, or 20 lbs), which is an additional 430 lbs on the conservative side.

Have you weighed your boat yet with the twin Yammi's? It would be good knowledge to have. I've done the "drop the boat and weigh truck and trailer separate" method, and just weigh the boat on scales, they come out the same.:DA stripped California 23 with no transom or stringers(don't need the stringers) will weight 900 pounds, Wisconsin 800 pounds.

[berdes]

The 23 is NOT weight tolorant. Twins make the problems worse. Your wasting your money if you don't get the weight out.
I know, I ran them with twin 200's, 260's and 400 v8's.
We have yet to see a properly setup twin 23. If you running 5 sheets of 3/4 inch sub floor glassed both sides and 500 pounds of interior your beating a dead horse. This is because of bottom flaws. You will have to get the weight out or alter the bottom or both. For twins the bottom correction is made to the outer sponsons starting 6 feet from the back and goes forward, it does not involve cutting the boat.
For a single engine DO NOT CUT the center pod. Been there done that. When done right the boat will run on JUST THE POD. If you get the weight out. I've run 22 Talon's , 21 Daytona's and most of the rest. The 23 Daytona is the best single runabout I've ever driven. When done right. It's bigger, more comfortable, takes more water and RUNS JUST AS FAST. When done right it will run 95 with one 300 Promax and FOUR adults. That's much faster loaded than the others.
It will NOT reach an acceptable level of performance STOCK.

Any questions?

This is one I just bought, don't have it here yet but trying to learn as much as I can about what to expect. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9yWEo7NdZQ
Watching the attitude and rooster, look's pretty good to me. What do you guy's think ? Thanks

[eli]

They ride flat don't require much trim I ran mine neutral or slightly neg and will go over 3 footers easy very stable boat we would go back to landing at 90 + all the tower /wake board , pontoons thought we were nuts

[tunnelfun]

This is what they look like at 100 with a single 275 hp. If you look close you will see that the outside sponsons aren't doing a lot so far as lift.

[AZMIDLYF]

Holy set back!!! Was that a custom Gill Bracket?

[tunnelfun]

No, 30 inch custom garage job. The boat runs the same top speed with 18 or 24 but the speed dropped from 95 down to 85 with a 4 person load. In order to punish the big supercharged outdrives on a 100 mile stretch in 2/3 footers with your buddies and two coolers on board you need the 30 inch. I watched a lot of those boats blow their motors trying to run with this boat on the long haul.

[engineermike]

This is what they look like at 100 with a single 275 hp. If you look close you will see that the outside sponsons aren't doing a lot so far as lift.

What prop was that run with?

[tunnelfun]

Mazco RE3, Chopper, Merc ET, OMC Raker...... They all ran the about same. Wouldn't run with a stock Bravo, at all. A power hog prop.
Fastest was a stock 15.5x32 Merc 4 blade clever. Ran 106 empty, but a loser under 90.
Best all said and done was a stock 15.5x31 Hydramotive Quad 4. Ran 102 empty and 95 loaded.

[engineermike]

What’s the logic behind all the setback?

[tunnelfun]

That boat needs a 3% sponson attack angle to keep the boat dry, it wont run @ 2%. They will be wet. And -2% prop shaft angle to keep it from flipping when the nose lifts. 18 inches required positive trim, eliminating the case as a running surface. The boat uses a transom water pickup. Water contacts the back half of the case. When the nose lifts, the bottom of the case resist boat rotation. If the nose lifts more the case sinks and applies brakes. Going from no case to 3+ inches of case is a lot of drag in a hurry at 100. Very affective.
The 30 inch set back is necessary to balance the boat with 4 people and a full gas load.
At 18 or 24 set back it will run the top speed empty but only 85 loaded. With 30 inches it runs 95 loaded with the average prop.
Study the picture closely. The rear of the sponsons are almost clear of the water. The boat is riding on the center sponson and case. If the nose is run any lower the middle of the sponsons will get wet. The trim is negative. The spray from under the sponson is mist blown forward around the compression curtain and then dripping from the sponson chine edge. The compression can be seen on the water as far forward as the drivers seat.


433926433927

[HydroSkreamin]

A stripped California 23 with no transom or stringers(don't need the stringers) will weight 900 pounds, Wisconsin 800 pounds.

My Shawano, WI built boat weighed 770 with no floors or transom, but wet stringers still intact. I'm pretty sure it was in the 550 range with the stringers out, before I took all the core out. It was such a flimsy, creaky potato chip I didn't want to risk damage weighing it with absolutely no structure.

Please share with us how you strengthened the running surface to not run stringers. Did you foam core them?
I couldn't even stand on the inside of mine even when the original core was in, and definitely not when it was out.

Would you care to share where your CG was when you had the large setback on?

Also, what was the overall weight when you ran this setup?

Thanks

[tunnelfun]

Oh my. Lets start with the simple answers. The only experience I have with 23 Daytona's is the three that I owned.
One corrected California, one corrected Wisconsin and one stock Wisconsin. The corrected Wisconsin boat had a lot of added weight from poor layup in a lot of bad places. The California boat was built much better than the Wisconsin boats.
I replaced all dead balsa in the sponsons with 3/4 inch. Beveled and stopped 1 inch from the edge. Tunnel tops were good.
The stringers are not needed because the boat has 6 built in from the mold.
I don't know the CG because I set boats up based on what it needs to be after evaluating on water performance prior to dial-in. I new after the first run with a stock 23 and v8 that the boat was a pig. Top speed with 12 inch set back was 65. And so much trim the motor was crabbing at any motor height. No gas, one person.
I new from the start the boat needed the full weight reduction program.
You will have to estimate the overall weight. Start with 700 and add it up. I never did, it was what it was.

Here's what went back in.

No stringers. Not needed with full bulkheads. I beat on the boat at 80 in 3 footers for 10 years, no stress cracks.
No partial bulkheads, they crack the sides of the boat when it flexes. And without the most important full bulkhead at the dash it will flex, a lot. The bottom pumps. The floor does not stop it.
Three FULL bulkheads. Full 1/2 inch at the front. Full 3/4 inch with crawl thought hole at the dash (MUST be full or it will break, factory had two partials, thats why the sponsons are bowed in). Full 1/2 inch at the back seat.
One piece 3/4 plywood across transom laminated with one piece 3/4 the width of knee walls. 3/4 knee walls go from transom to rear bulk hear.
Motor bracket bolts through transom "directly to" knee walls with "many" 3/8 bolts and big washers.
3/8 sub floor over just the center sponson. No other floor anywhere.
Two 25 pound front seats complete with integral bases, one 40 pound rear seat using rear bulkhead for support. All reused factory covers.
Two 36 gallon aluminum box gas tanks at the transom. Boat got 2.8 MPG.
One 30 pound battery.
Hydro steering.
Aluminum anchor.
Coast Guard package.

Know, about that center pod. I cut mine 6x60 to accommodate a surface v-drive. Shaft through the back notch. Worked great. But, we mounted the 275 V/8 before the v-drive install to gather info for the v-drive angle. The outboard test did not work, at all. BIG porpoise problem. But it told us everything we needed to know for the v-drive set up. Got it right the first time. 15 MPH faster than the same motor in the same boat with the standard v-drive.
I have no idea what a full weight 400 HP boat will do with the bottom cut. Because, with the absent sponson area you lose part of what keeps the compression under the boat.

433964433965

[HydroSkreamin]

Tunnelfun, thanks for sharing your setup. You obviously focused heavily on weight, probably removing around 600 lbs from the boat. With that focus on weight reduction, and your knowledge of what the bare hulls weigh, I'm struggling with the fact you've never weighed the boat, especially the difference between OB and V-drive. I guess if you really don't care about the number, I get it.

You're the first person I've ever gotten any real number answers from on any forum on these 23 Daytonas, and I appreciate that. Obviously my path is different, I will share the good, bad and ugly when I get it running here shortly.

[tunnelfun]

I didn't want to leave the boat unattended in the water while I went to weigh the truck and trailer. My lady was so tolerant of my hobby I didn't want to ask her to baby sit the boat and to have to answer all the questions from the nice people at the dock. I weighed 800 pounds in bags coming out. I weighed the bare hulls in the garage. Then put the list above back in. I would like to know exactly what they weighed finished but once it's done it's done. All I could do at that point was be mind full of the daily load.
I went the full diet route because I saw an opportunity to be the top dog on the river in 1988. The big inboards couldn't run with it on the long haul and the little Hyrostreams and what not's couldn't take the water outside of the lagoon. Nobody else was running much over 100 then anyway. This boat did it in two foot till the gas was gone. The only boats that could do that were running twin 280 horse 2.5's. They were not interested in running 100 MPH for 100 miles. To many scheduled rebuilds. Or melt downs.
The boat had a full interior, to look at it you would never know it had been put on the diet.
I just sold a 23 with twin 400 V/8's. I was a tough decision. I could have maximized the boat but wasn't sure I wanted to do the work just to have a full size 120+ drag boat.
So I sold it and now have a 26 American Offshore, twin 300 Promax. I runs a lazy 100. I put one of those on the diet also, it ran 110 with the same power. Sold it to a good friend. He put 200's on it. Ran 80, not bad. But he got restless. So he now has 300's. And is going for props.
I think the 23 is the best single engine runabout I've ever driven. It cost a lot of $$$$$ to go from a 23 single to a 26 twin.
I miss my single 23. To bad we didn't have 400 hp motors...………….

[engineermike]

Tunnelfun, what was your gear ratio and rpm with the 275?

[tunnelfun]

1.62 gear? And 6400 to 6700 on the tach. Rev limiter clipped. 275 OMC
1.65 gear? And 6400 on the tach for the 300 Merc.
Props from 28 to 32.

[berdes]

Tunnelfun, what was your gear ratio and rpm with the 275?
Mike, When you were running twins what style props did you like? I understand needing some bow lift, would you suggest a chopper with a lot of rake?
Same ? for you tunnelfun, and would you both recommend switching to a single? Maybe a 350 Verado? Thanks for all the info.

[tunnelfun]

The heavy weight boat single V/8 wouldn't run with any prop with 12 inch set back. The V/8 case is a small skeg case, not good. Leads to motor crabbing. Bigger skeg helped but didn't fix it because of positive trim needed just to go 60. A pig. Didn't run with 24 or 30 inch set back. Might work.

The heavy twin 200 needed coppers to run 80. Little trim needed.

The feather weight twin 200 ran 95 with anything. No trim needed at 12 inches back.

The feather weight single 1979 Merc 200 carb needed a 28 chopper to run 80 at 24 inches back. Little trim needed. This was a great setup. 4.2 MPG at 80 on regular gas. -------------------Should have gone 225 Promax for 90 MPH and called it good at that point--------------------------.

The feather weight single 300 Merc and V/8 ran 100 with prop at 24 inches back but Bravo's. Both 3.2 MPG wide open.

I wouldn't run any single on a heavy 23 with less than 24 inch set back, maybe 18 for the big 400?

I wouldn't re-rig a twin to a single without getting the weight out.

I wouldn't re-rig a single to a twin at all. Not with the new 400 and feather weight combo available. Probably run north of 115. But LOTS of work. And worth it.

[engineermike]

I only ran bravo1’s on the twins but didn’t spend much time on setup. The single hates bravos.

if you went to a single, I wouldn’t recommend anything without a sportmaster (speeds over 80). In new motors, that pretty much leaves 250r, 300r, and 400r. The 300r with weight removed would be interesting but if you left the hull alone the 400r makes a good combo.

Im running 12” setback and wondered if more would help. I run 2-3 deg trimmed out for max speed. It’s just counter to what everyone else seems to do with cat hulls.

[tsteele777]

Are you on the facebook side? I have the same boat with a single 300x and would love more pics/info of yours with twins as thats my goal for mine. Havent seen another one like ours!

[tsteele777]

Top deck pic. Anyone seen another like it?350825
Did you ever make it to the facebook side of scream and fly? I have some questions for you as i have the same boat and would love more info/pics of yours as twins are my end goal hopefully this coming off season!

[JPEROG]

Did you ever make it to the facebook side of scream and fly? I have some questions for you as i have the same boat and would love more info/pics of yours as twins are my end goal hopefully this coming off season!

Mike doesn't seem to get come around the board much anymore. I do know that he had a single 400R Inline 6 running just shy of 100 the last time we talked. HydroSkreamin had a 400R inline 6 as well and has since put a new 450 on his and he is running just shy of 110 I believe.

Joe

[tsteele777]

I have the same 23' as engineermike but with a single 300x. Was curious how well it did with twins as thats the direction id like to go with mine if i keep it.

[JPEROG]

I don't think he cared for the twin set up as much as he likes the single. CG is not ideal with twins unless you are going to run 280s. Marv Jorgensen had a triple 23 eliminator that was really fast.

Joe

[tsteele777]

I don't think he cared for the twin set up as much as he likes the single. CG is not ideal with twins unless you are going to run 280s. Marv Jorgensen had a triple 23 eliminator that was really fast.

Joe. I believe mine was rigged with triples originally, the single 300x definitely leaves the boat underpowered, i considered the single 400r but the cost of it is far more than what makes sense for me...at that point id rather go up to a 25'+ and be set for a long while (at least thats what i tell my self lol) i thought twin 300x would be a pretty stout combo but damn are they getting harder and harder to find!👎🏼

[tsteele777]

The 23 is NOT weight tolorant. Twins make the problems worse. Your wasting your money if you don't get the weight out.
I know, I ran them with twin 200's, 260's and 400 v8's.
We have yet to see a properly setup twin 23. If you running 5 sheets of 3/4 inch sub floor glassed both sides and 500 pounds of interior your beating a dead horse. This is because of bottom flaws. You will have to get the weight out or alter the bottom or both. For twins the bottom correction is made to the outer sponsons starting 6 feet from the back and goes forward, it does not involve cutting the boat.
For a single engine DO NOT CUT the center pod. Been there done that. When done right the boat will run on JUST THE POD. If you get the weight out. I've run 22 Talon's , 21 Daytona's and most of the rest. The 23 Daytona is the best single runabout I've ever driven. When done right. It's bigger, more comfortable, takes more water and RUNS JUST AS FAST. When done right it will run 95 with one 300 Promax and FOUR adults. That's much faster loaded than the others.
It will NOT reach an acceptable level of performance STOCK.

Any questions?. Where can i get more info from you on this? Facebook? Email? Text? Anywhere you can dump some knowledge on me lol

[JPEROG]

Sounds like tunnelfun doesn't like the hook. Hydro Skreamin spent more time on re-doing a 23 then anyone could ever imagine. He is a total perfectionist "his is not light" but I bet there isn't a faster single 23 out there.
541634

Joe

[tsteele777]

Sounds like tunnelfun doesn't like the hook. Hydro Skreamin spent more time on re-doing a 23 then anyone could ever imagine. He is a total perfectionist "his is not light" but I bet there isn't a faster single 23 out there.
541634

Joe

in now looking into ADDING a second 300x to mine after this season if i can get my hands on one that is a good candidate.....better start pinching pennies now haha