300xs vs 300x vs 400R vs Caldwell Billet 2.5

[aggiestckl]

If initial money was not a considering factor, however down time and repairs cost are considered what would you choose and why?

[AZMIDLYF]

In to hear the reasoning

[powerabout]

Id like to see a dyno comparison of a stock f1 and a caldwell 2.5

[Speed Jr.]

All depends on the boat your putting it on......

[aggiestckl]

Let's say 21 skater

[Frank Molé]

a warmed up x

[LongShot]

21 Skater = 300x. Simple, reliable fast. 850# boat and lighter go CRT, Pleasure, cruise, fish go 300XS. Know nothing about the 4-strokes....yet.

[Mr. Demeanor]

A new XS with a warranty :D

[StratosVT]

Thats like comparing a house to a condo or a houseboat.....don't understand the comparison. I can see comparing the x to the xs but the others don't have much in common to the 300's or each other.:confused:

[powerabout]

2.5 clearly for light boat going fast

[Chaz]

3600ccx

[Bodhi]

300x........it's like the king of the jungle

[whipper]

Hmmm very interesting hypothetical hear. Only because even with the 300X and its 325-335 hp stock power plant i would wonder if a twin 300x 21 skater would be faster or {Quicker} than a twin 400 hp CRT? Im thinking not simply because of the power to weight plus the revs and smaller wheel would eat the 300x in a drag race? Top speed ill have to think any way the crt would have that edge also. Ill tell ya this much thats a race i would pay money to watch over and over again. :cheers: I dont think the 400R belongs on a boat under 26ft unless your looking for an anchor. :D

[powerabout]

Next years x cat might be running seven marine engines.lol

[tb2054]

on a euro a 2.5 that's what the whole was built around ,, if you read the history on the euro anything else really kind of a mistake !!! ,,,I know its not a skater but I have no idea about that and wanted to put in my penny,, 5 in the morning nothing else to do:eek:

[scawd the dog]

I have ran / tested 3 of the 4 on the Same Hull..... #1 choice 300X I have Ran and tested 300X's since 2001 and had repaired nothing comes close . The 300xs would be a distant 2nd except at Cruise speed fuel economy is great . The 400R was a HUGE disappointment , Full of Media HYPE and BS . If My boat performance was dramatically decreased with one , and a Pair on the Doug Wright Hulls and the X cat series "Race Boats" have not seen Dramatic performance Improvements , over the 280's and 300XS's Whats the point of having?

I have NO experience with the Caldwell product so I have no data.

[Risco]

Glen really depends on what you want to do with a 21 skater. To decide what engine but as everyone already knows 300xs is comprise between speed and mpg. 300x if you want more speed dont care about mpg. And for even more speed twin billet 2.5s would be badest 21 ever made. I wouldnt put a 400r on a 21 based on what happen to brents boat and my personal experience with a 21.

[CptAJ]

Since maintenance and repairs are a factor here, I want to say 300X all the way. No compressor takes the cake for me.

The 2.5 might be in the running but I don't trust that it will be as repairable simply by virtue of not being a standard item. Too early to tell on that one though. If you want to take fuel economy into consideration then the savings of the 300XS might offset its higher maintenance cost.

[Jamescole]

As always the resistance is real.. in any Power sports industry when 4 stroke is brought to high performance.

anyone remember the Yamaha YZ400F ? The YZ400F unexpectedly took the motocross world by storm. The initial reaction of die-hard motocross fans and riders (before they had a chance to ride the bike) was predictable. My reaction was “That’s interesting, but it will never be as good as a two-stroke on a motocross track.” everyone and there 2 Stroke love was wrong. now you cant find a 2 stroke on the race course.

once they went to the YZ426F i would call it the 2ND generation Race Bike all Championships from then on was a 4 stroke.

how i see it. the 400 ROS is the 426 ... "2ND generation" of the 400 designed to replace the two strokes.

Mercury will make a smaller performance 4 stroke outboard for F1 its just a matter of time. just like yamaha made the 250F to compete in the 125 class.

so what would my choice be ? 400R ! why ? because its the future and its supposed to be reliable 400 hp turn key... computer flash.. who knows how much HP you will get 500? 600?

Start hoarding 2 stroke parts !

[Davidlake]

As always the resistance is real.. in any Power sports industry when 4 stroke is brought to high performance.

anyone remember the Yamaha YZ400F ? The YZ400F unexpectedly took the motocross world by storm. The initial reaction of die-hard motocross fans and riders (before they had a chance to ride the bike) was predictable. My reaction was “That’s interesting, but it will never be as good as a two-stroke on a motocross track.” everyone and there 2 Stroke love was wrong. now you cant find a 2 stroke on the race course.

once they went to the YZ426F i would call it the 2ND generation Race Bike all Championships from then on was a 4 stroke.

how i see it. the 400 ROS is the 426 ... "2ND generation" of the 400 designed to replace the two strokes.

Mercury will make a smaller performance 4 stroke outboard for F1 its just a matter of time. just like yamaha made the 250F to compete in the 125 class.

so what would my choice be ? 400R ! why ? because its the future and its supposed to be reliable 400 hp turn key... computer flash.. who knows how much HP you will get 500? 600?

Start hoarding 2 stroke parts !
I have experienced the transition from 2 stroke MX bikes to 4 strokes first hand (well, both hands). What you say is correct about the bikes... But, I feel that the change was corporate $$ driven. In all-out race conditions, the 4 strokes get to the flag first. Refreshing a 2 stroke bike costs maybe $200. A 4 stroke more like $1000! That will be the outcome of the motorboat high-output 4 strokes. For recreational use, I much prefer the 2 stroke MX'er. Same for motor boats!

[LongShot]

One thing about it. No matter which way you go it's going to cost you a pile of green paper..but is there anything that is fun that doesn't?? My philosophical moment for the day.

[Jamescole]

I have experienced the transition from 2 stroke MX bikes to 4 strokes first hand (well, both hands). What you say is correct about the bikes... But, I feel that the change was corporate $$ driven. In all-out race conditions, the 4 strokes get to the flag first. Refreshing a 2 stroke bike costs maybe $200. A 4 stroke more like $1000! That will be the outcome of the motorboat high-output 4 strokes. For recreational use, I much prefer the 2 stroke MX'er. Same for motor boats!

oh price to maintain.. agreed. but we put no price on this thread...

i currently have pretty much the oldest 2 strokes ever because of cost. it will be YEARS before i buy a 4 stroke unless its a yamaha SHO... there affordable right now.

[CptAJ]

oh price to maintain.. agreed. but we put no price on this thread...

i currently have pretty much the oldest 2 strokes ever because of cost. it will be YEARS before i buy a 4 stroke unless its a yamaha SHO... there affordable right now.

Ah but we did! Price to buy is no issue, but price to maintain is!

That's why I'm going with the 300X.

Now, a naturally aspirated fourstroke would also be very decent under these considerations, but that is not what the 400 is.

Like you said, four strokes are inevitable. I for one have my hopes set for a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder over the 225hp mark at least, light and robust.

[mikeylarge]

If you want to be fast and reliable build a 15" 300x just stay up on your maintnence. If you want to still run over 100 and not worry about anything for 2 years and enjoy burning no fuel slap a new 20" warranteed xs on it. If you want something cool that screams and you like to tune it in put a 2.5 on it. If you want to destroy the handling and go broke buy a 400r ��

[AZMIDLYF]

This is definitely a hull related decision. Smaller hulls, give me lighter and acceleration. 24 and up, give me the torque and grunt to run the number with a boat full of what's needed for my day on the water.

3600ccx..(insert initials)xtreme 345519

[Brad Zastrow]

I see too many of these threads were if some is good, more is better. Heavy engines do not belong on small light boats. The balance is all wrong. First I am not a fan of the 21 Skater as they are a little dangerous. Tunnel is too deep and too narrow. Twin 2.5's on a 21 makes for a missile in a straight line after it settles down porpoising. The 3.0L Mercs are great engines but are sluggish compared to 2.5's. Weight, low rpm and tall gear ratios. However they last much longer before rebuilds than 2.5's. 100 hours vs 400+ hours. On bigger boats 24'+ the 300x and 300xs are the only way to go. Cruise at high speed for hours at low rpm. If you want a Skater get a 24 or 28. Far superior boat and either will handle the bigger engines.

[aggiestckl]

I see too many of these threads were if some is good, more is better. Heavy engines do not belong on small light boats. The balance is all wrong. First I am not a fan of the 21 Skater as they are a little dangerous. Tunnel is too deep and too narrow. Twin 2.5's on a 21 makes for a missile in a straight line after it settles down porpoising. The 3.0L Mercs are great engines but are sluggish compared to 2.5's. Weight, low rpm and tall gear ratios. However they last much longer before rebuilds than 2.5's. 100 hours vs 400+ hours. On bigger boats 24'+ the 300x and 300xs are the only way to go. Cruise at high speed for hours at low rpm. If you want a Skater get a 24 or 28. Far superior boat and either will handle the bigger engines.

Thinking of Argo or twister

[Brad Zastrow]

so what would my choice be ? 400R ! why ? because its the future and its supposed to be reliable 400 hp turn key... computer flash.. who knows how much HP you will get 500? 600?



The 400R is only 2.6 liter (158 cubic inch). About half the size of a 5.0 Mustang yet making more power. It currently is running over 20+- pounds of boost! I do not think a re-flash will give more power on pump gas. I am surprised a consumer engine with a warranty is made with that much boost.

[Jamescole]

The 400R is only 2.6 liter (158 cubic inch). About half the size of a 5.0 Mustang yet making more power. It currently is running over 20+- pounds of boost! I do not think a re-flash will give more power on pump gas. I am surprised a consumer engine with a warranty is made with that much boost.

lol 20 pounds is agressive .. but very cool. yeah good point... hard to see them ramping that boost up much more

[AZMIDLYF]

Have not heard the actual boost levels these were running. Any idea on torque numbers?

[Ally101]

Hmmm very interesting hypothetical hear. Only because even with the 300X and its 325-335 hp stock power plant i would wonder if a twin 300x 21 skater would be faster or {Quicker} than a twin 400 hp CRT? Im thinking not simply because of the power to weight plus the revs and smaller wheel would eat the 300x in a drag race? Top speed ill have to think any way the crt would have that edge also. Ill tell ya this much thats a race i would pay money to watch over and over again. :cheers: I dont think the 400R belongs on a boat under 26ft unless your looking for an anchor. :D

So ur saying crt makes 400hp?

[powerabout]

I have experienced the transition from 2 stroke MX bikes to 4 strokes first hand (well, both hands). What you say is correct about the bikes... But, I feel that the change was corporate $$ driven. In all-out race conditions, the 4 strokes get to the flag first. Refreshing a 2 stroke bike costs maybe $200. A 4 stroke more like $1000! That will be the outcome of the motorboat high-output 4 strokes. For recreational use, I much prefer the 2 stroke MX'er. Same for motor boats!
I think the japs forced the change as they were so embarrassed for not inventing DFI, hence no more development.
Look what BRP do with sleds and 2 strokes

[CUDA]

Is the CRT a 2.5 or larger?

[LongShot]

^^^ 2.5 and growing by the minute......Nice thing about not being built in the corporate world. You don't have to have 10 accountants, 4 lawyers, the environmental manager, the safety manager and have at least one representative from every diversity category including lgbt in the room with a Powerpoint presentation and 18 people trying to listen on a conference call that keeps dropping out to make a 2.9, 3.1 and a 3.4 liter billet motor. You just do it. In the words of Toby Keith " How Do You Like Me Now"!!!!

[powerabout]

3.4 from same outside dimensions??
Might need to base it on omc size case?

[whipper]

So ur saying crt makes 400hp?


The lowest HP model is 320 and the highest was 400. not sure if they will be making one with more HP or not. Theres lots of 450+ hp 2 stroke outboards out there that they would have to compete with. Its a remarkable engine and idea. Pricey for the full Monty but very special. Sub 400lbs.

[robert cruse]

So what did you have a 400R on that gives you this expertise?

[Double Rigged]

I am all in if anyone of these 2 stroke builders come up with 400hp 2 stroke/turn key powerhead that is sold complete from someone reputable that answers the phone and stands behind what they build. So far pretty much pipe dream other than one off's and rumors.
Need to see something proven with documented dyno pulls etc.
Been hearing about these for over a year.
Patiently waiting!!!!!

[Risco]

I am all in if anyone of these 2 stroke builders come up with 400hp 2 stroke/turn key powerhead that is sold complete from someone reputable that answers the phone and stands behind what they build. So far pretty much pipe dream other than one off's and rumors.
Need to see something proven with documented dyno pulls etc.
Been hearing about these for over a year.
Patiently waiting!!!!!

I forgot who built the 3.6l 300x that was supposed to mkae 400hp there youtube video of him he cruises at 100 and zips by like there tied to the dock. The problem is he went threw a 3.0l sportmaster almost every time out push pinion right out of the case. I also heard that the 400r frist came out they were ran with 3.0l sportmaster with no luck either. So even if you could get 400hp how would you get to water.

[Chaz]

I am all in if anyone of these 2 stroke builders come up with 400hp 2 stroke/turn key powerhead that is sold complete from someone reputable that answers the phone and stands behind what they build. So far pretty much pipe dream other than one off's and rumors.
Need to see something proven with documented dyno pulls etc.
Been hearing about these for over a year.
Patiently waiting!!!!!

Ron ,
Let me see if I got this right .... :eek:
They would have to go out and buy two complete powerheads
Buy all the parts
Do all the machine work
Assemble the motors
400 hp dyno sheet
Be a ISO9000 company
Secretary with call forward
Wty a motor the factory wouldn't touch
Wait , I think that model come's with a unicorn .... :p

[Double Rigged]

Ron ,
Let me see if I got this right .... :eek:
They would have to go out and buy two complete powerheads
Buy all the parts
Do all the machine work
Assemble the motors
400 hp dyno sheet
Be a ISO9000 company
Secretary with call forward
Wty a motor the factory wouldn't touch
Wait , I think that model come's with a unicorn .... :p

And don't forget they will need people to buy them!!!!!
It is called running a legitimate business!!!!

[JPEROG]

I forgot who built the 3.6l 300x that was supposed to mkae 400hp there youtube video of him he cruises at 100 and zips by like there tied to the dock. The problem is he went threw a 3.0l sportmaster almost every time out push pinion right out of the case. I also heard that the 400r frist came out they were ran with 3.0l sportmaster with no luck either. So even if you could get 400hp how would you get to water.

If you watch any of Kurt's videos with him running that 3.6X motor (which makes over 400) you will see that he twist it hard for miles on end. He was breaking cases before he was having them shimmed correctly I believe. Charlie runs his built X on the 21 Skater and covers more miles then pretty much anyone in a given year (his case is custom with bravo gears that have been turned down to fit but has big hours on it) and his makes 400. Hydrotec has built several, Todd D. has built several, Simons has built several, and DBR has them running but I don't know about buying them as turn key complete powerheads. If and when these get put on a large hull and really loaded all of the time, I am sure that detonation will become more apparent. Charlie runs good fuel in his all of the time, Dave has one on his 24 predator (24 skater copy that is heavy) and he runs good fuel as well.

If you are wanting one of the manufactures to step into this market and not strictly an aftermarket company or shop--never happen. This is no different then what we had to do with motorcycles (Pre-1994) before the big bores became available from the factory. Everything we ran was pretty much aftermarket other then the crank "which had to be welded" and the case which had to bored. Snowmobiles and jetskis were the same story. When they come out with a program to dump a hotter tune in these 400s and or add some cubic inches to the picture then they will make what everyone wants but its gonna be pricy and still gonna be heavy....

Joe

[Davidlake]

I wonder if the 400R has hydraulic lifters or does it need valve adjustments and how often and how difficult? And, what is the maintenance schedule?

[Chaz]

And don't forget they will need people to buy them!!!!!
It is called running a legitimate business!!!!


My bad .... I thought you were looking to buy a pair of powerheads . Now I see , you want to buy a turn key business that has standing orders . How far back do you need to see the tax returns ... :rolleyes:

Chaz = thinking that you can take a 3.0L piston with the rings on it and horseshoe pitch it by the rod from across the room in the bore of a real 400 hp 2 stroke powerhead ... but then , what do I know ... :D

[AZMIDLYF]

Corey Sinclair (https://www.facebook.com/corey.sinclair.963?fref=ufi) What's this 400hp kit he talks of for etecs?

Like (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469?fref=ufi&rc=p#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=508710192642159) · March 31 at 10:04pm (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469/posts/508708555975656?comment_id=508709919308853&reply_comment_id=508710192642159&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R8%22%7D)






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Dave Bush (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469?fref=ufi) We have been working hard on 420 plus pump gas 3.3 kits.sleeves , pistons, heads, reeds, plenum,slides, ecu,ign wewe're having a blast and can't wait to show you

Like (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469?fref=ufi&rc=p#) · 8 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=508711595975352) · March 31 at 10:12pm (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469/posts/508708555975656?comment_id=508709919308853&reply_comment_id=508711595975352&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R7%22%7D)






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Corey Sinclair (https://www.facebook.com/corey.sinclair.963?fref=ufi) Do you have an idea on pricing at this stage Dave (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469?hc_location=ufi)? I'd be very keen to put a kit through my etec once you have all the R&D sorted.

Like (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469?fref=ufi&rc=p#) · March 31 at 10:28pm (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469/posts/508708555975656?comment_id=508709919308853&reply_comment_id=508716809308164&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D)






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Dave Bush (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469?fref=ufi) It's a bit early. The sleeves and pistons are on site now it will be another month for the turn key package

Like (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469?fref=ufi&rc=p#) · 3 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=508720705974441) · March 31 at 10:41pm (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469/posts/508708555975656?comment_id=508709919308853&reply_comment_id=508720705974441&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D)






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Dave Bush (https://www.facebook.com/dave.bush.9469?fref=ufi) The best part is we have been just beating the **** out of these things for over a year and they're really reliable fast engines

[Double Rigged]

If you watch any of Kurt's videos with him running that 3.6X motor (which makes over 400) you will see that he twist it hard for miles on end. He was breaking cases before he was having them shimmed correctly I believe. Charlie runs his built X on the 21 Skater and covers more miles then pretty much anyone in a given year (his case is custom with bravo gears that have been turned down to fit but has big hours on it) and his makes 400. Hydrotec has built several, Todd D. has built several, Simons has built several, and DBR has them running but I don't know about buying them as turn key complete powerheads. If and when these get put on a large hull and really loaded all of the time, I am sure that detonation will become more apparent. Charlie runs good fuel in his all of the time, Dave has one on his 24 predator (24 skater copy that is heavy) and he runs good fuel as well.

If you are wanting one of the manufactures to step into this market and not strictly an aftermarket company or shop--never happen. This is no different then what we had to do with motorcycles (Pre-1994) before the big bores became available from the factory. Everything we ran was pretty much aftermarket other then the crank "which had to be welded" and the case which had to bored. Snowmobiles and jetskis were the same story. When they come out with a program to dump a hotter tune in these 400s and or add some cubic inches to the picture then they will make what everyone wants but its gonna be pricy and still gonna be heavy....

Joe
Joe, I hear your point and agree that there will be only aftermarket companies. Not looking for a huge company just a someone with a store front business and real test data that they can share like big boat engine builders. Simon out of the engine building business, DBR nothing concrete yet and very hard to get a hold of, Hydrotec only one with Dyno pulls to show, and another on the QT working on stuff that is not public knowledge yet.
As far as single engine boats with 300x power I am sure there are a lot of guys that can do good work. But like you said for a bigger boat who knows. Not ready to drop a ton of money on whim unless someone can show me what they have to offer on a dyno. JMO.

Chaz if you have some good stuff give me a call. Always looking for more HP.

[Chaz]

I have been working on a special induction system for the 3.0L Mercury .... :thumbsup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1hEQbGRJ_Q

[NICE PAIR]

I have been working on a special induction system for the 3.0L Mercury .... :thumbsup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1hEQbGRJ_Q

If those will fit my 300XS's ..... I'm gonna need two. ;-)

[David]

When the 4 stroke motocross bikes came out, weren't they a lot bigger displacement then comparable 2 Strokes? If the same resources were put into bigger two stokes, which would have won?

[90 5.0]

When the 4 stroke motocross bikes came out, weren't they a lot bigger displacement then comparable 2 Strokes? If the same resources were put into bigger two stokes, which would have won?

450 4 strokes competed be 250 two strokes
250 4 strokes vs 125 two strokes.

A 500 2 stroke is an amimal, they phased out the 500cc two strokes super cross class and the development just died on them. Today's technology could have produced a more usable power band 500cc two stroke bike.

They were unpredictable brute animals, yz490,cr500 just insane power that comes on all at once.

Great for Oldsmobile hill though!!

[jpf091959]

yea, big fan of two strokes. I rode 250 and 500cc motocross. I would run the 250's wide open and control it with the clutch. I would jet the 500's fat and hope I could stop and pivot before blasting through the berm. They were beasts and I miss those days.

[MeCapnDave]

400 ROS if money is no object

[davidmercury]

400 ROS if money is no object
I had considered rerigging with the 400's but expense would have been insane

[speicher lane]

Your Skater would have been an AMAZING test bed to promote the 400's as a re-rig power vs. the goto engine for the CC's which the marketing is targeted at...probably would have jump stated demand for a lot of 32's rather than the trickle of conversions that are taking place.

That is an amazingly beautiful (and unique) Skater...